back to article British Gas robo home remote gets itself into hot water

Energy has been in the news again lately, but not in the way that suppliers would favour. On Tuesday, opposition leader Ed Miliband promised to freeze energy prices for 20 months if Labour made it into power. It’s a message British Gas was keen to forget as it announced its renewed commitment to the connected home in London …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
  1. I think so I am?

    Cool and all

    but why not just set up your stat correctly in the first place!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Unhappy

      Re: Cool and all

      - except when it's radio controlled goodness won't let you set it below 21 degrees

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The Hive?

      Are we talking the Umbrella Corporation?

  2. Dr_N
    Thumb Down

    "“I never engaged with my thermostat before,"

    FFS.

  3. Rich 2 Silver badge

    Not cool - cold!

    A friend of my wife just moved house and found that the heating system was one of these things.

    The house was freezing and she couldn't switch the heating on. So she called British Gas who told her that they were very sympathetic to her turning blue but they couldn't give her access to her heating control until the previous owner gave them permission to do so!!

    It's since been sorted, but I can't help thinking there is a small flaw in this plan.

    1. Stuart Frost

      Re: Not cool - cold!

      What utter rubbish. You only need the account details to operate it remotely otherwise you can fully operate the thermostat manually as per every other time clock/thermostat available.

  4. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
    Happy

    Gawd

    its the end of civilisation.

    Whats up with you? cant you wrap a blanket on for the 30 secs it takes to get from bed to the heating system control panel and turn it on.

    Fook knows how you'd survived the joys of the early 70's with no heating, occasional power cuts and ice on the single glazed windows

    You youngsters have it easy... we worked 14 hrs a day, walked 15 miles to t'pit drone drone drone drone

  5. Ben Rose
    Thumb Down

    What a waste of time and money

    I'm not entirely surprised people tinker with the app all the time, they've wasted their hard earned on it. On top of that, it's a thermostat...people drive me mad with those. In the words of Victoria Wood:

    "I thought I was going menopausal and then I realised the cat had been playing with the thermostat".

    It's not rocket science. Decide what temperature you would like your home to be, set it and leave it be. Some homes have hot and cold spots, but thermostatic radiator valves should cater for this.

    The new generation have homeowners grew up in a home with parents who never had central heating when they grew up. CH was a mod-con and preferable to lighting a fire when they got up each day. This trend stays with us in the form of "it's so cold, i turned my heating back on this weekend" each Autumn. My heating never goes off...that's what the thermostat does. When it's warm, like it Summer, the heating doesn't come on. When it's cold, as if by magic, it fires up the boiler.

    Modern boilers are hot and modern radiators efficient. You can heat up a cold house in around 20 minutes in the depths on winter. Remote control really isn't needed.

    1. Kevin Johnston

      Re: What a waste of time and money

      "My heating never goes off...that's what the thermostat does."

      Yes, yes oh my GOD yes. I really really never understood all those people who 'turned off their heating' at the start of Spring and were then surprised when strange things happened when they turned it back on. With proper modern valves on rads then the whole problem has gone away, you can even retro-fit them to old rads.

    2. Don Jefe

      Re: What a waste of time and money

      Radiators and radiator valves? Why do you have car parts in your house? Do you live in your car? The only people I know who use radiators outside of engine cooling applications are moonshiners. Are you making shine? That's quite dangerous in an enclosed environment, especially if you're using some sort of non-explosion proof climate control system.

      1. Don Jefe

        Re: What a waste of time and money

        You forget the joke icon and people just lose all sense of reading comprehension. I guess all those warnings about coffee being hot and new knives being sharp are necessary. Common sense has been blown out through drafty windows.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What a waste of time and money

          "Common sense has been blown out through drafty windows."

          Common sense does not exist in Blighty any more.

          Anything that needs though is delegated to a fking app! I hate those people with a passion.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What a waste of time and money@ Don Jefe

        I suspect the supposedly cosmopolitan Brits don't much follow your humour, generally having little experience of either the hot air heating systems common in the US, or regions where heating is the least of your worries. But I enjoyed your comment.

        1. A Known Coward

          @ Ledswinger

          No, we understood it was meant to be a joke, it just wasn't very funny.

          I'll stick with my radiators thank you, each method has it's own pros and cons but for me, especially with the dry air issue of hot air systems, radiators are better.

          Above all though the reason most homes in the UK have radiators is that the buildings are much older and of a solid construction rather than the timber frame jobs they put up in a day over in the US (only to watch them blow away in a storm). You can't easily retrofit a vent system into such buildings without losing space and gaining unsightly boxing where the vents go between floors.

          You also cannot control heating on a room by room basis with standard hot air systems, with a radiator a £25 thermosatic valve can be easily attached.

          1. cosymart
            Meh

            How Much!!!!

            I bought 5 TRVs for £25 from Screwfix.

            1. A Known Coward

              Re: How Much!!!!

              Heh, well in my own defence, it's been a decade since I installed TRVs throughout the house and I couldn't remember exactly what they cost. Pretty sure it was more than £5 each though.

        2. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

          Re: What a waste of time and money@ Don Jefe

          There is a trend in the UK for people to install under-floor heating now (either electric or powered by solar/ground heat carried by water), but the huge majority of UK properties use water filled radiators warmed by boilers running on natural gas, oil or solid fuel (wood or coal). Gas is commonly available as a mains service in the majority of the UK, and is cheaper per thermal unit than electricity.

          I think that hot-air heating is not used is mainly to do with the fact that it really requires the house to be built around the heating system as it requires substantial air-ducts to carry the air around the house.

          I did live in a house built in the '60s that used hot air as the principal heating, and I have to say there are significant drawbacks in my view. The heating was noisy at the best of times, and deafening when the fan motor bearings wore out (it was a Canadian system running on 120V, not the 230V the UK uses, and made procuring parts very difficult). Also, the kids used the air ducts as an intercom, shouting through them. You always had to be careful about noise in the bedroom, if you know what I mean, because of the way the ducts carried sound.

          But the primary problem was that it didn't really heat the fabric of the house or the hot water. If you didn't have and entry lobby acting as an air-lock, it was quite normal for all of the heat to rush out whenever anyone came in or out of the house. And when you get a bird in the ducts, it's a real problem trying to get it out.

          Anyway, it never really caught on in new build houses, and water filled radiators were easier to retro-fit into older houses, especially with micro-bore pipes.

      3. TheVogon

        Re: What a waste of time and money

        Do you live in Death Valley, or on Venus?

    3. Mark .

      Re: What a waste of time and money

      When on holiday, it's handy to turn the heating off (which can include after you've already left if you're short of time), as well as being able to turn it on shortly before you come home, so you can come home to a warm house.

      At home, it's nice to be able to set a weekly schedule with a big screen rather than using the small thermostat screen with its fiddly controls (and by that, I mean using my 17" laptop, not some titchy phone/tablet - it's a shame they don't have apps for say Windows x86, as it seems odd that I have to reach for my much smaller phone, I never understood this obsession for only providing apps for phones, but at least it can be accessed through a website for unsupported platforms).

      So yes, remote control does have it's uses, and it's also more than remote control - it's about providing better user interfaces through standard devices that people already have. Though I'm more sceptical on whether this actually saves heating bills - it now seems all the more easy to turn up the heating whenever I want...

      And yes, you're right that some people don't seem to get thermostats - sometimes I have to explain that putting the temperature up higher doesn't make it get hotter faster, rather we should just set the temperature that we want.

    4. MrXavia

      Re: What a waste of time and money

      I like the idea of being able to control my heating remotely...

      being able to turn it up a bit if you feel cold, turn it off from the bedroom if your not getting up at your usual time for some reason.. I would love to be able to control it on a room by room basis too, there is no need to heat un-used rooms when the doors are closed...

      BUT the key thing for me is that I would not want it on any kind of cloud provider, I would want it all running locally, what happens if the internet dies? what happens if their servers get hacked? and do you really want to give them all your data?

      1. Mark .

        Re: What a waste of time and money

        "what happens if the internet dies?"

        I believe you can still control it through the thermostat controls the old fashioned way.

        If they get hacked, aren't the account details they already have more of a worry than the heating/temperature? (Conceivably it could be a way to infer if someone is away on holiday I suppose, though seems rather overkill compared to more obvious methods.)

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. squizzar

          Re: What a waste of time and money

          You need individual controllable valves for these zones then. You can get wireless TRVs (radiator valves) although they're a bit pricey, and most of them I think will need to connect to a controller from the same manufacturer - I haven't seen an open standard as such. Alternatively just get an electronic timed TRV which are quite a bit cheaper. Get rid of your main thermostat - or put it in a cold part of the house. The alternative is to split your heating into zones but that might involve quite a bit of plumbing. If you're lucky and there's a point where you can split your heating into upstairs/downstairs then put in a mid-position valve and suitable controller and you can select between the zones. A lot of underfloor heating systems seem to be going this way with much more flexible setups and multiple zone controllers.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not needed

    My boiler knows the outside temperature as well as the inside and will turn on early if it's going to take longer than normal to get up to the set temperature (when it's warmer outside it also lowers the radiator water temp as that's more efficient than running hot, shutting off and then cycling again). So why would I even want to wake up to poke the heating system , let alone fart around with an app.

    However, I didn't get British Gas to install some cheap system expensively either.

    1. Ben Rose

      Re: Not needed

      "when it's warmer outside it also lowers the radiator water temp as that's more efficient than running hot, shutting off and then cycling again"

      Really? Is it? Can you prove that with some basic Physics?

      All my maths suggests the precise opposite. I've made a lot of eco efforts in my house and the hot water temp is the only one I've never had a conclusive answer on.

      1. Madf1ier

        Re: Not needed

        Come on, you can do it! Maths is probably a bit optimistic, as you don't have the data, but you can do a qualitative analysis.

        Think about where heat is wasted in the system.

        What increases the rate of heat loss?

        What effects to cyclical changes in heat have on the system (pipework)?

        Most condensing boilers work more efficiently in continuous mode at a lower heat flux, but assume it makes no difference, and assume the central heating pump energy use is fixed.

        Most efficient option is continuous water flow at the minimum possible temperature (ideally to enormous radiators to allow the temperature even lower). Except for the assumptions about the boiler efficiency and central heating pump (probably most relevant).

        What calculations led you to the opposite conclusion?

        BW,

        Stu

        1. Ben Rose

          Re: Not needed

          Similar calculations to yours, just not negating the same stuff.

          Rate of heat loss is proportional to temperature, so if the radiators are hotter they will heat the room quicker. Once up to temperature, the boiler and water pump can both shut down. Running the pump for longer uses more electricity. Running the boiler for longer uses more gas. With cooler water temp the boiler may cut out sooner but will come back on quicker as the boiler return temperature will be much lower. The hotter radiators will stay warmer longer too, keeping the house warmer for longer and removing the need to turn the boiler back on.

          My boiler instructions say to run at MAX temperature when it's cold outside. This is apparently more efficient. In that case, why is it not more efficient at all times?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Not needed@ Ben Rose

            "My boiler instructions say to run at MAX temperature when it's cold outside. This is apparently more efficient. In that case, why is it not more efficient at all times?"

            In all conditions the maximum heat transfer rate is achieved with the highest primary circuit temperature, and that will be necessary in very cold conditions if your boiler is correctly sized for the property and a given "worst case" of heat loss, which usually translates to low temperatures, although humidity, wind and precipitation can have complicating effects. In those very cold conditions, a properly sized boiler would be operating almost continuously, with just a bit of slack for hot water needs. As you'll have observed that's rarely the case and reflects the fact that historically, most boilers were considerably over-sized, which kept people warm, but meant you didn't have an efficient system, and used more gas than you needed to.

            The reason why maximum heat transfer rate isn't necessarily the optimum in other conditions is because you don't then need full output of the boiler, and if you are pumping heat energy out of the boiler faster than the system can use it then either the house thermostat is shutting off the heating frequently, leading to short cycling (see below), or the return flow to the boiler is above the ideal temperature, in which case the temperature difference within the boiler isn't high enough for efficient heat transfer, and the primary circuit 'stat will start to cycle the boiler.

            And now....cycling. The reason you don't want short boiler cycles is because every time you ignite the boiler, a volume of partially burnt gas is vented, which is an energy loss. The boiler, being vented to the world, cools down quickly, so with every ignition you're reheating the boiler internals, another energy loss. And when the burners are turned on or off the lower flue temperatures until the boiler stabilises mean the condensor won't be working at optimal efficiency. Those losses are quite small, but under optimal conditions a good condensing boiler can be 92% efficient - in the real world it doesn't take much to start to significantly reduce that. Other influences on cycling can include TRV's fighting with the house stat, poorly sited house stats, and perhaps worst of all, poorly balanced radiators. If the radiators are properly sized, then for optimal system operation the heat loss between the inflow and outflow should be 11 C. I'm a bit of a loon, I've spent fifteen quid on an infra red laser thermometer, and I've balanced my system. Who else does that? Most plumbers operate to rules of thumb like "close the lock shield valve and then open it three quarters of a turn" which does nothing to balance the system (lock shield valve is the exit end of the radiator, usually covered with a non-turning cap to stop people messing with the set up).

            The reality is that modern condensing boilers are quite efficient pieces of kit. However, all plumbers, and most other aspects of central heating design and control remain in the dark ages, and having a crApp to remotely control the heating, or even a programmeable thermostat doesn't alter that. The best systems would monitor both inside temp and humidity, would monitor external temp and windspeed, calculate estimated heat loss from its own output, adjust the primary circuit temperature automatically, and use individual readiator controls not just to turn radiators on and off, but to balance the system. And it would have a programmeable house thermostat that starts off with some sensible timing and temperature defaults, and then learns what the occupants do (including some experimenting like turning the heating down occaisionally to see if the occupants react), as well as some sensors to work out when the house is unoccupied, and react automatically.

            1. Ben Rose

              Re: Not needed@ Ben Rose

              Thanks, interesting information, but it ignores the costs of running the electric water pump. Surely significant? A cupful of lost gas versus loads of, more expensive per kWh, electricity. Your boiler efficiency theory is sound but ignores this part - the condenser fan also needs to run.

              Interesting that this article touches on hot water. I never really turn mine off, any heat lost from my hot water tank will only go towards warming the house anyway.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Not needed@ Ben Rose

                "Thanks, interesting information, but it ignores the costs of running the electric water pump. Surely significant?"

                In energy terms not that significant. A typical gas boiler will be in the 8kW to 20kW range, depending on the age and the property. The circulating pump will only be using around 60W. Even though 'leccy's more expensive, it's still a trivial amount compared to the gas when you consider the volumes used by the CH system. At 60W versus even 8kW, the fact that electricity is two or three times the price doesn't matter. The condensor fan is going to be, at a guess around 10W, so the same point applies.

                Regarding the heat loss from the HW tank, unless you really need it (eg unpredictable shifts) you're better off having it on generous timer settings, and letting it cool down in between. You're right that a lot of the lost heat will got to space heating, but that's only useful if you'd have the CH on anyway. If it's an upstairs tank in an airing cupboard, then you're throwing away heat unless you've got about two feet of insulation in the loft above the tank, and you've done air tight sealing of any pipe runs into the loft space. That's because although the area's small, the heat differential will be on average twice that of the normal living space relative to the loft space. In the grand scheme these losses aren't huge, but why pay to waste the energy if you don't have to?

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Not needed@ Ben Rose

                  "unless ... an upstairs tank in an airing cupboard, then you're throwing away heat unless you've got about two feet of insulation in the loft above the tank"

                  "why pay to waste the energy if you don't have to?"

                  Where I am, the feed tanks for HW and CH are directly above the airing cupboard/tank, uninsulated ceiling below, so the "waste" heat goes to frost prevention in the HW and CH tanks. For a while I even had a thermometer in the loft so I could see it wasn't getting too close to freezing up there (minimum 4C observed, time to open the loft hatch just in case).

                  This is in a conventional-built small "3" bed semi, twenty+ years old. I did put extra insulation in the loft a few years back (Knauf Space Blanket deeply discounted courtesy of a subsidy from power company customers), with the result that the heating is rarely on most of the year. Heating master control is by programmable optimum start stat set at 21 mornings, 19 early evenings, decreasing slightly as the evening goes by.

                  Despite the ramp down in the evenings, upstairs is now frequently too warm for me to get to sleep comfortably and quickly, and warm summer evenings need the use of portable aircon. Other than the bathroom, or in the coldest few days in winter, the upstairs rads are never on.

                  Why do we still have bedrooms upstairs, given that heat rises and bedrooms generally need to be the coolest part of the house?

                  Why does it still cost me a fortune for gas and electricity? I dread to think what the bills are like in a house with room for a family.

    2. monkeyfish

      Re: Not needed

      What system is that? Link please.

  7. Kubla Cant
    WTF?

    Why fiddle with a thermostat?

    If the thermostat is working properly it will maintain a constant temperature in the house. I get really annoyed with people who believe they can increase the speed with which something heats up by turning the thermostat up.

    How of ten do you think "today, I'd like my house to be really hot"? I'd guess that most people change the thermostat setting about once a year, if that.

    The author's description of his use of this app suggests that he's interacting with the timer to activate the heating when it's not yet on.

    1. Matt Piechota

      Re: Why fiddle with a thermostat?

      "If the thermostat is working properly it will maintain a constant temperature in the house. I get really annoyed with people who believe they can increase the speed with which something heats up by turning the thermostat up."

      The idea (for me), is that I don't want the house to be a same temperature all the time. I want it cool to sleep and comfortable when I'm there. And to save a bit of money, let it get warm/cold (depending on season) when I'm not around. My current thermostat does this, but I have to push a bunch of not very intuitive buttons to program it. It would be nice to program it from a better interface. The remote control would be nice, but I'm not of an age where I fail to make it home very often now. And when I was that age, I certainly wasn't thinking about heating bills. ;-)

      1. Will Godfrey Silver badge

        Re: Why fiddle with a thermostat?

        So? For a few quid you, can get a multi-step thermostat with different temp/times throughout the day and week.

  8. Pete 2 Silver badge

    Easily fixed

    > people only spend six minutes a year thinking about their energy bills. Naturally, Brem thought this was a bad sign

    So that's why they continually jack up the price of gas & electricity. So that people think about their bills the whole time: worrying about how to pay them.

    P.S. No need to crank your heating up with a remote controlled app in order to get out of bed. Just put on a dressing gown, like a normal person does.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Could be useful ... log in from work every day at ~3:45 to see if sons have come home from school and turned the hearing on - if so turn it off remotely - idealy this could be linked to the text app which could fire off a "if its cold *PUT A JUMPER ON*, *WEAR SOCKS*, *ITS AUTUMN - WHY ARE YOU WEARING SHORTS AND A T-SHIRT" automated message at the same time!

    1. Gonebirdin

      Spot on

      And whilst your at it a suitable add on in the wired house will be the ability to send an onscreen message to the Sky box telling them to get of their arse, stop watching telly and do some homework or empty the dishwasher

  10. Dough

    Pre-registered

    Obviously this isn't for everyone but I fully intend getting one of these. Many people don't spend a predictable amount of time in their homes. Unpredictable working hours, social engagements, weekends away, holidays etc. are all good reason why someone might want to remotely control their heating / boiler. Setting the schedule on most boilers is not an easy procedure and you can only programme (in my experience) up to a week ahead.

  11. James 51

    This only applies in the areas with mains gas and there are plenty out there without that.

    Perhaps all these new houses should have ground source heat pumps or solar water heaters with underfloor heating.

    (First though I'd need to fix the fittings in my windows and insulation in the loft. Builders did a shocking job on those.)

    1. Don Jefe

      You've nailed a critical issue when tuning any system for optimal efficiency. Everything else needs to be operating well, else little tweaks are just a waste of time. For houses in a place like Britain where there are lots of old homes that aren't efficient and lots of new homes that are almost as crappy this is especially true.

      If your windows are drafty, or the structure isn't sealed well or the roof allows air through the seams a little tweaking of thermostat settings is like trying to warm your pool with a kettle of hot water. You could have been doing something more constructive if you'd not bothered to put the kettle on at all. Plus you'd have saved the electricity.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "For houses in a place like Britain where there are lots of old homes that aren't efficient and lots of new homes that are almost as crappy this is especially true."

        Actually, one thing we do well in Britain is building regulations. Bureaucratic, conservative and very restrictive, but broadly speaking very good at ensuring compliance with standards. So the majority of new homes are built to a very good standard of energy efficiency. In very rough numbers 80% of UK houses have properly insulated lofts (more than 200mm of insulation), 80% have insulated cavity walls, and 80% have decent double glazing. There's still a sizeable minority of older houses lacking in some or all of these measures, but things aren't as bad as some think.

        The sizeable minority of older houses you've got a point on are dominated by cheaply built terraced houses in former industrial towns, but even with these increasingly we are seeing double glazing installed, which does wonders for the air tightness. That certainly doesn't bring it up to new new build or passivhaus standards, I grant, but certainly sufficient to negate the idea that turning the themostat up will immediately leak out through the gaps.

        And the standard of the older houses is being improved (for selected Labour voting poor) by levies on electricity bills, resulting in about £2bn a year being spent by power companies to fix (mostly) rented housing, which is great for the occupants, great for the landlords, not so good for anybody that actually pays their own bill with earned money. This government policy is unfortunately flawed, because it is encouraging investment in crappy life expired housing stock (eg cramped, damp, solid walled terraced housing) much of which should be subject to slum clearance, and replaced with something modern.

        1. Don Jefe
          Happy

          In honesty, it has been over a decade since I lived there, so I can't really speak to the present state of things. Even here the States where there are no building codes in most places, outside of incorporated cities/towns more efficient building is catching on.

          I failed to clarify my outdated knowledge, my apologies. I'm sure you're assessment is more valid than mine :)

        2. JP19

          one thing we do well in Britain is building regulations

          Yes a builder friend of mine recently told me about the hoops they have to jump though to achieve 'sufficient' air tightness and how the approved guy they have to pay to come and test the air tightness tells them that within a year all the houses he has tested will have a hole knocked in a wall and air brick fitted to solve condensation problems.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: one thing we do well in Britain is building regulations

            "within a year all the houses he has tested will have a hole knocked in a wall and air brick fitted to solve condensation problems"

            I'm not surprised. The air tightness requirements only work in the real world if you have heat recovery ventilation and probably humidity control. That's expensive, and only saves energy if properly installed and set up. Great for the sort of fancy clinical houses designed as showpieces by architects occupied by two bright, never-at-home twentysomething pseudo-hippies, but not something that looks ready for the mainstream anytime soon.

            I suspect the public sector obsession with carbon and climate change will continue to push stricter standards, and then in a few years time there will be a shocking piece of research that finds that these modern houses have dreadful air quality, because the standards didn't sufficently allow for the gaseous and particulate emissions from gas hobs, oxidised cooking spills, carpet and furniture fumes, particulates from vacuum cleaners, aerosol over-spray, or even the scurf and gaseous emissions of the occupants.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    I like the idea of being able to turn the heating off (down for the pedants) when going away & then turning it back on (up) on the morning of my return.

    I wouldn't pay £200 for the privilege though, I think you'll find that you'll be able to buy a cheaper version of this before I've finished this paragraph....

    1. Gonebirdin

      Heatmiser have had Wireless thermostats with smart phone apps for a couple of years now

      1. Toltec

        "Heatmiser have had Wireless thermostats with smart phone apps for a couple of years now"

        Twice the price just for the bits from doing a quick search on their kit.

        Would be good if you could just get the kit from BG for a reduced price rather than have the 'free' installation, but I suspect the installation is a lost leader to allow the engineer to tell you that you should get a new boiler/radiators/TRVs/additional insulation.

  13. The Sod Particle

    Shirley

    someone could do this with £50 and a raspberry PI?

    1. Roger Greenwood

      Re: Shirley

      By the time you have added fuses, terminals, relays, a few wires, box, labour to wire it etc you will probably be well over £50.

      1. James Cooke

        Re: Shirley

        I already have and the price was about £50. My main purpose was in easy ability to change hot water times as we work changing shifts not change the temperature - there's a nob on the wall that does that.

        1. Roger Greenwood
          Pint

          Re: Shirley

          In which case have a well earned pint.

  14. disgruntled yank

    rules of engagement?

    I've never engaged with my thermostat before, either, but I've been turning them up down for something close to half a century.. What exactly does Ms. Bhatia mean?

    1. Don Jefe

      Re: rules of engagement?

      You engage with spouses and enemies... There may be deeper implications to that word than I had previously realized.

  15. Greg D

    missing the point much?

    Many of you seem to be missing the point entirely and of the same ilk as the old gits back in the 70's bemoaning the increasing interest in mobile telephony. Basically stifling progress with a mindset of "well I dont need it so no one else should have it".

    This sounds damn handy. If you're looking to save some money and gain convenience.

    - While you're at work, heating down or off and 20 mins before you arrive home, you can flick it back on. Saving money and time spent in a cold house when you arrive home from a stressful day.

    - If you're ill or suffering hot/cold flushes, getting up constantly to adjust the thermostat is a pain in the arse (depending on illness, sometimes literally).

    We have the technology, why the fuck not use it?

    1. Don Jefe
      Joke

      Re: missing the point much?

      I've got full home automation. She can be temperamental, suffers recurring periods of malfunction and the contractual lock in is really long term; but also isn't ultra specialized like "just a thermostat": True whole house feature set.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: missing the point much?

      "We have the technology, why the fuck not use it?"

      Anything else YOU want? Inconsiderate but not unexpected.

  16. Arachnoid

    Wasting more money on energy

    Another ploy for making money by telling the customer they need to interact with their home environment even when they are not there.For the softies who don't like coming home to a cold house set the clock correctly [OOH there a good way of making extra money lets have an app for that too].

    I work 12 hours shifts days and nights,its not that hard to turn it off before I go out or on when I come in so stop making a big deal out of it.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is the home owner the only person who can control it?

    It's just that since smart electricity metering now allows the energy company to ration your energy based upon demand (part of the Grand Plan for cutting electricity consumption), does that mean that the gas company can do the same?

    If so, I think I might just keep the one on the wall that I have to turn up and down with my hand.

  18. Aidan242

    Not for modern homes.

    Sadly, living in a halfway modern home with more than one heating zone, this doesn't fly. Just as well, as I don't fancy replacing 12 thermostats/thermocron at a cost of £199 each. BG had this to say "Multiple thermostats, often termed multi-zone heating are not supported by Remote Heating Control™ at the moment. The system has been designed for single thermostat systems only."

  19. JimmyPage Silver badge

    Obvious use ...

    work out when the owners mobile is approaching home, and have heating fired up when they're 20 minutes away ?

    Could also turn on driveway lights ? And the oven ?

    Just a thought.

  20. Matt_payne666

    I like the idea of remotely controlling my heating... not so much now that im a grown up with children... the house is always empty at 9am on a weekday and its always occupied from 3:30 in the afternoon... so the olf thermostat does a good job of controlling the temps...

    but, in my past I never knew when id be home (if at all!) so being able to turn the heating and hot water on when I left for home would have been useful...

    as for £200? its not cheap, but ive pissed larger amounts up the wall for less useful gadgets....

  21. GrumpyOldMan

    Who has control?

    If you can control it with Their app, maybe they can too....? Bigger Bro is on the way perhaps?

  22. Timo

    can they prove these save money?

    Relative has one of the whizzy "nest" thermostats that are all about Industrial Design. And every 5 minutes he's on the thing turning it up or turning it down via his fondleslab.

    I can't imagine that saves much money over the long run as all he's doing is fighting with the expensive "technology" <cough> iDesign <cough> inside.

  23. Arachnoid

    so being able to turn the heating and hot water on when I left for home

    Combi boilers have instant hot water ergo don't waste unused energy storing hot water in a systern tank which leaks energy to the surrounding room or heating unused water.Sounds like you would be better investing into a new system with higher boiler efficiency than in this "toy".

    1. Richard Jones 1
      Happy

      Re: so being able to turn the heating and hot water on when I left for home

      Be careful what you wish for. Those 'oh so efficient boilers' often have a life span measured in months before they eat spare parts like they were cornflakes. Over 7 years my father paid out the equal of a whole new boiler, in just the spare parts, labour extra. True he had it replaced for half the BG price by a new boiler that has less of an appetite for bits. Over 21 years my old chug along boiler has cost about £300 in spares and £ 200 for servicing. I'm sorry, the money not spent on repairs and new boilers is way greater than the money (not) saved on some crappy new style combi boiler. One other benefit, with an immersion heater I can bypass any boiler fault and still have hot water, try that with a dead combi!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Combi

      "Sounds like you would be better investing into a new system with higher boiler efficiency than in this "toy"."

      The neighbour updated their 30 year old boiler. I didn't.

      Guess who has FAR more call outs?

  24. All names Taken

    yawn - boring.

    And they will still manage to overcharge anyway

  25. Arachnoid

    Combi boilers v Old Boilers

    Combi boilers are like any other tech you get the "cheap and cheerful" end and the "dearer, works better,higher spec and lasts longer type".Ergo you go for a low spec system you get more maintenance and repair bills.As for efficiency you would be lucky to get in the range of 30-40% from an older type boiler whereas a newer well built and maintained boiler can get over 70% efficiency.

    1. TheVogon

      Re: Combi boilers v Old Boilers

      Over 90% actually...

    2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Combi boilers v Old Boilers

      "Combi boilers are like any other tech you get the "cheap and cheerful" end and the "dearer, works better,higher spec and lasts longer type".Ergo you go for a low spec system you get more maintenance and repair bills.As for efficiency you would be lucky to get in the range of 30-40% from an older type boiler whereas a newer well built and maintained boiler can get over 70% efficiency."

      Well strictly you'd expect 80% from an old boiler but modern (condensing) types run something like 90-95% by preheating the water through the flue heat exchanger.

      But combi boilers are a compromise design. Either you want hot water for a tap and/or bath/shower or you want it to heat radiators.

      Better solution is to separate the 2 tasks with separate systems that are best at each.

      BTW IIRC in the book "Alternative Energy Without Hot Air" the author says solar water heating is always a good idea, even in the UK, as it's something everyone wants and the panels can use all the solar spectrum, unlike PV panels.

      Yes I probably spend far too much time studying plumbing.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Combi boilers v Old Boilers

        "in the book "Alternative Energy Without Hot Air"

        Are you sure you don't mean Professor David Mackay's book "Sustainable Energy Without The Hot Air" ?

        Freely downloadable at http://www.withouthotair.com/ and well worth a read. Some will disagree with some aspects of it, but there's nothing else like it as a starting point.

        Don't remember the comment about solar hot water but there's a lot in the book and it's been a while since I read it.

        I can't help wondering if the obsession with domestic combi boilers will prove to be a short term fad, given that they rely on energy (usually gas) being available and affordable at the time of demand, whereas it seems entirely possible to me that there will soon be benefits in having a few hours heat storage (such as a well insulated and maybe hotter and larger than usual hot water tank) to benefit from daily peak/off-peak variations in energy supply and price.

        Bring back calorifiers (if you've got space). Buy the input when it's cheap, and store the heat for a few hours till you need it. Yes there'll be heat losses. But if the peak time energy price is (say) twice the off peak, and you can store the energy without too much loss, what's not to like?

  26. Lee D Silver badge

    I work in IT. Obviously.

    I live my working life in a temperature-controlled environment that does not vary by more than 1 degree at any time, no matter what time of year.

    EVERY summer, people wander in and tell me how cold my office is, repeatedly, all the time.

    EVERY winter, people wander in and tell me how hot my office is, repeatedly, all the time.

    No matter what the local weather, people seem to think my room is magically changing temperature. It's not. It hasn't. In many years. Nor have any of the server rooms. I can show you pretty graphs if you don't believe me.

    People's perception of temperature is extremely personal and odd. I'm sure if you gave someone an app that did nothing but LOOKED LIKE IT, they'd play with the temperatures just as much and tell you how well it works. That's not a selling point for the system. And, to be honest, until I NOTICE it's cold myself, why would I want to change the settings? It might have been absolutely fine, but no, I've ramped up the boiler "just in case".

    If it's a cold day, and I get home, the house will be warmer than the outside anyway and I'll be glad of the (comparative) warmth. Only after 30 minutes or so, after I've acclimatised, will it "feel" cold/hot and I'll want to change the boiler settings. So a remote thermostat does nothing here.

    And thermostats are NOT on/off switches. Set it once, when you get the house, and then NEVER TOUCH IT AGAIN. You'll save more energy than any amount of faffing about up and down in temperature. Similarly, if you feel cold but it's 20 in your living room? Chances are that ramping up the heat isn't the answer. Put a jumper on, or check yourself for a temperature, etc. You don't WANT to be submitting to every whim of temperature that your body thinks it has, really you don't. And if other people live in the house, you'll just annoy them and make them feel "worse" 50% of the time you do that. Don't. Agree on a temperature and leave it there, forever.

    My workplace (a school) has remote-controlled boilers. It's an expensive system because it has to heat dozens of rooms much larger than any you'll find in a house and it can take hours to get up to temperature. Still, it's set to be at a temperature for the duration of the school day, all year round and it just does more clever ramping up/down knowing what the temp is outside and how long it takes to heat up the building - NOTHING at all that needs remote apps or energy-provider assistance. Why would you want anything else? In fact, it's adjusted so "often", we've forgotten how to do it and the guy who did left last month. It's not been a problem thus far (and this is a workplace that has a legal minimum and maximum temperature, unlike just about every other workplace in the country).

    Privacy issues? Who cares? British Gas or any electricity company could know how much energy I'm using at any time if they bothered to adjust the pipes in the street rather than in my boiler cupboard. It's really not necessary to be in there at all for them to do that (which makes me more suspicious of it, actually, but really I don't care enough to worry about it).

    The problem is being a control freak. You're not ACTUALLY doing anything when you play with all the knobs and buttons except possibly using more energy than necessary (wonder why the energy companies like it?) and making yourself think you're controlling your environment. You're not. And if you wanted to, there have been devices to do that for DECADES and do a better job.

    How about getting on with your life, experiencing cold and switching on the heating only when you of FEEL cold like the rest of humanity? Rather than micromanaging a climate around yourself that annoys just about everyone else who ever visits?

  27. SirDigalot

    US houses

    We have a house built in 89, it is crap..

    single pane windows with more holes than a block of swiss cheese

    it is a block house (small fortune there) the loft insulation is meh (R19) and the cavity insulation is much the same, though the cavity is quite small ( about 3 inches just enough for a socket box)

    We were approached by a glazing firm at our local Members only store (BJ's - like Costco only with a name made for puerile teenage minds like mine) and they tried to sell us their new multi pane glass windows... admittedly they fit in the frames better than ours, but other than that they were just 2 pains of glass not sealed evacuated or filled with noble gasses and such, not triple pained European glory. I was quite upset really... they also showed me tinfoil that I can put on my roof to stop the loft heating up because it makes the forced air ducts get too hot ( mine are actually properly insulated I also said it is just tinfoil and the sun does not directly shine on it so being reflective on the inside of my roof is not that great ( they use one of those infrared lamps shining on raw insulation to prove how awesome it was at keeping out the heat)

    the power company give us a "credit" on our electricity bill for controlling when our A/C and or heat is on during peak times ( maybe $2 a month I am telling them to stick it since it is bloody useless anyway)

    we set the thermostat to 83 or 84 in the summer (for A/C and 78 (daytime) 68 (night) in the winter (for heat) though it rarely goes on even in winter except for the odd cold morning near freezing...which would be negated if the bloody windows were better!)

    it is a programmable timer so does not stay on all the time anyway.

    the hot water is solar and barely even uses electric heat ( unless the kid decides to have a 30 minute shower at night, even though she is told NOT to) but then I just turn off the element and they all suffer through cold water mainly because I am an a-hole.

    Even in the colder states there seemed to be a big lack of super duper efficient windows and suck unlike the UK and definitely not Europe, and, when you find one out here they charge 3 times the earth and your first born ( I tried negotiating for the second born but they were not interested)

    Though it is getting better... Luckily I live in florida so it is not too cold, just wet, the A/C is mainly for dehumidifying than cool... most people down here set the AC to mid or low 70's and complain of super high electricity bills and never seem to think A.) it is too friggen cold and B.) they have the same windows as I do single pane monstrosities with leaks, this is true even for houses built as late as 2002! I guess energy efficiency is more of a luxury add on than a necessity

    I saw some houses they have just constructed this year near my neighbourhood they have the same aweful double pane things they were trying to sell me at the store

    ** apparently they have a Low-E coating to reflect the sun or something... they are still crap, and sash style windows**

    ok enough with the ex-pat rose coloured glasses again....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: US houses

      @SirDigalot

      Crap houses in Florida? You expected what in that third-world retrograde part of the US?

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        Re: US houses

        "You expected what in that third-world retrograde part of the US?"

        This is a state that's got some people with serious cash to spend.

        I'd hate to imagine what Arkansas (routinely listed as the 50th poorest US state in a field of 50) is like.

        Although I guess bacons pretty cheap there (pig farming is a big industry there, along with "Deliverance" tours).

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hot water??

    Do people in the UK fiddle with their hot water temperature or even turn the heater on/off that much? I don't know anyone in the US who doesn't set it once and then never messes with it ever again.

    I can tell how much it costs me to run mine since it is the only consumer of gas in the summer, and it is less than $20/month. Once when I was gone for three weeks out of the month my bill was only $5, so keeping my water up to temperature obviously costs so little it wouldn't be worth messing with even if I had easy control of it. Maybe people in the UK don't believe in insulation their hot water heaters?

    The idea of messing with your hot water heater, especially in a place that only ever needs heat and not air conditioning, is just bizarre to me.

  29. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    FAIL

    A Hive. One Queen. *many* drones.

    So who does BG think you are in this picture?

    And £200 for LCD + microcontroller +GSM card + (maybe) 4 lines for the boiler interface.

    This is for a corporation with BG's buying power.

    BTW the "smart meter" roll out is not mandated by the EU if the roll out for the business case does not close.

    And AFAIK it does not.

    You want control? Get a controller that supports an outside temperature sensor.

  30. Mage Silver badge

    If it's really cold I light the fire with some turf. Bottle or Mains gas is insanely expensive here. If we get really poor we can burn the bannisters, chairs, table etc.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sounds like a great idea but...

    ... I'd burn my Granny as fuel before I'd give a penny to British Gas under any circumstances. In the hierarchy of consumer hate nothing else comes close.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Sounds like a great idea but...

      "... I'd burn my Granny as fuel before I'd give a penny to British Gas under any circumstances. In the hierarchy of consumer hate nothing else comes close."

      I've heard they have a talent for making enemies of their customers.

      TBF I suppose if you run say a yearly price check and they came to the top of the list as cheapest you'd have to go with them.

      I'm not sure if they ever are the cheapest.

This topic is closed for new posts.