back to article Survey: Bosses are DESPERATE and GAGGING for Linux skills

Demand for IT professionals with Linux skills is stronger than ever, but a new worldwide survey of more than 850 hiring managers and 2,600 Linux professionals indicates that companies are having a hard time finding qualified hires. Among the findings of the survey, which was conducted by careers website Dice and the Linux …

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  1. Richard 81

    Oh good. I'm going to be developing in Linux in my new job, so the experience will be handy.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      If this is true then why are rates for Linux technicians so much lower than for Windows ones?

      1. Tom 79

        Probably because they only surveyed companies that use Linux.

      2. Daniel B.
        FAIL

        Return of the AC shills

        So, the M$ shills are back, and they're still posting as AC's. Really?

    2. dogged

      Will it? What will you be developing?

      "linux skills" is so nebulous a term as to be effectively meaningless, is the problem. Do they want you to write device drivers or do they need you to install Hadoop or manage an LDAP server? I keep getting sent emails asking me to go back to working on embedded linux for the building industry - sorry, not going to happen because the skills involved -although moderately well-paid (less than £55 though, by a long shot) are a long way from my skillset gained while working on RF base station firmware and that was 10 years ago. I've been doing other stuff since then.

      There is literally SO MUCH other stuff that the odds on finding a job doing exactly what you do are minimal and the odds on having the required experience for the big money are vanishingly remote.

      1. Richard 81

        "Will it? What will you be developing?"

        Scientific software. Linux development won't be the core of the role, but it'll be a good bit of experience nonetheless.

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  4. Anonymous Coward
    Linux

    Also: MS Office For Linux (kernel)

    http://www.extremetech.com/computing/147813-microsoft-looking-to-release-office-for-linux-in-2014

    Spread the word and it is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I guess that would be "counter-$hilling".

    1. Androgynous Crackwhore
      WTF?

      Re: Also: MS Office For Linux (kernel)

      Spread the word and it is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

      OMG! Someone's OD'd on the space-cakes.

      There'll NEVER be Office for Linux. NEVER. How would MS fully control their painstakingly honed rolling-incompatibility-programme™ and inbuilt-obsolescence™ without maintaining full control of the platform?

      A carefully hamstrung toy-Office-cum-subterfuge-tool, quite possibly... but a full "Office for Linux"?!!! NEVER.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Stop

        Re: Also: MS Office For Linux (kernel)

        If they don't bring Office to Android, somebody else is going to eat their lunch on the tablets. Currently, there is no viable office competitor on Android, so the window is still open to safeguard their office semi-monopoly by porting Office to Android. If they wait one more year, it might be too late.

        Plus without office on Android, even more people will be driven into the arms of Google Docs and they will realize that the benefits of collaboration outweigh the lacking features of gdocs.

        1. Frumious Bandersnatch

          Re: Also: MS Office For Linux (kernel)

          If they don't bring Office to Android, somebody else is going to eat their lunch on the tablets

          It still doesn't seem likely. They may have got some of the way there with the cut-down version of Office for Surface RT, but it is exactly that: cut-down. I've read lots of unsubstantiated comments here that the Office code base is such a mess of x86 assembly for things like macro support is unlikely to be ported any time soon. Also, I read here on the Register that there seem to be political problem within Microsoft as to whether they should even develop and release an ARM version (or a Surface RT version, to be precise) of Outlook. If that's to be believed, then there's probably a considerable faction within MS that would never accede to releasing a Linux (or Android) version of any of their desktop tools.It would completely go against the whole philosophy of maintaining customers through locking them into the Windows ecosystem. And even if they do go down that route, it may, as you say, already be too late .

          On a slightly unrelated note, I think that there is definitely a niche there for a "good enough" (which incidentally is a phrase you used to hear at MS to describe their development/release philosophy) office suite. I've been thinking for quite a while now that a suite that had the 80% of features that most people actually need and use could easily capture a significant chunk of the market for "office"/productivity software. People are fed up with massive, bloated systems with tons of arcane features that they'll never use. By paring it down and providing good interoperability between components and across platforms, it should be "good enough" to satisfy all but the most hardcore/insane of users. In keeping with the 80% of functionality idea, I'd suggest calling it "Pareto" (if such a thing doesn't already exist). So long as developers were ruthless about not implementing features just for the sake of it, I think it could go a long way.

          This is just my opinion, though. Personally, I've not used Word in many years and I have no need for it unless someone demands a document in that format. If I need something professional looking, I'll plump for LaTeX every time (edited in emacs, naturally :), or just use XML and CSS if I want to mess with layouts and fancy stuff. In either case, I prefer to concentrate on the content rather than formatting (which gets done at the end and is abstracted away from the actual content). This seems to be the opposite of the way that most Word users (and developers) work--style over substance, you might say.

        2. sisk

          Re: Also: MS Office For Linux (kernel)

          Currently, there is no viable office competitor on Android,

          That's because you can't have a viable Office competitor without a real keyboard. Seriously, have you tried to type a report or work with a spreadsheet with nothing but a touchscreen and a virtual keyboard? I'm sure my hairline shrunk back another quarter inch in terror the day I had to do that.

          1. Danny 14

            Re: Also: MS Office For Linux (kernel)

            Polaris is good enough for phone and tablet use. Not up to heavy office work but good enough for changes on the go.

            1. mmeier

              Re: Also: MS Office For Linux (kernel)

              Polaris works for Android tablets . OTOH I can get a tablet pc with an Atom for the same weight, same endurance and a "close enough" price and run OO or even the real deal.

      2. mmeier

        Re: Also: MS Office For Linux (kernel)

        Why not? They produce office for the other single-digit desktop platform as well. So porting to Ubuntu, Suse, RedHat, Mint, RedStar... should not be a technical problem. If there is money to be made - MS will make an offer.

        1. Androgynous Crackwhore
          Linux

          Re: Also: MS Office For Linux (kernel)

          Why not? They produce office for the other single-digit desktop platform as well. So porting to Ubuntu, Suse, RedHat, Mint, RedStar... should not be a technical problem.

          No, I'm sure there's no technical problem at all. It'll be what Microsoft euphemistically refer to as "a political problem" - meaning monopolist strategy. That "other single-digit desktop platform" will never offer real competition. A tightly controlled walled garden running exclusively on outdated but overpriced novelty hardware from a single vendor. Hardly a realistic alternative to the cut-throat PC channel - for the myriad corporate minions - is it? Shiny gratification for a handful of bourgeois upper management types maybe but a mass-deployed tool for the plebs to type on? Hardly!

          Office for Linux on the other hand... that's a totally different kettle of fish. Contemporary Linux systems run comfortably on whatever decade old commodity hardware happens to be lying around. For example, I just happen to be typing this on an old single core PentiumM laptop sporting 1.5GB RAM and the infamous Intel 855GM graphics abomination. It's running a very recently released (2013) derivative of Debian's forthcoming Wheezy (Crunchbang-Waldorf) which I've been fairly savagely torture-testing. The OS is running from an .ISO file (it's not even "installed" anywhere)!... on an 8GB USB stick!... There's no HDD fitted and no other storage.

          Some handy system stats from Conky:

          Uptime:______ 20d 14h 45m

          Ram:________ 864MiB/1.2GB

          Swap usage:__ 1.26GB/4GB

          Disk usage:___ 493MiB/616MiB

          CPU usage:___ 4%

          The "swap" is a partition on the stick and the "disk" is the .ISO(USB)/fusion(RAM) filesystem in case you're wondering.

          Clicking to close this Firefox window, I'm warned "You are about to close 174 tabs. Are you sure you want to continue?" I also have an Iceweasel window running. Only 86 open tabs in that though. I've also had three fairly large PDFs lying open for a week or two, along with a text editor with half a dozen tabs, four file browser windows, fifteen "mid res" (2288x1712) JPEGs from the missus, a handful of system tools and three terminal windows (all resting ATM) strewn across three virtual desktops. None too shabby an assortment of clutter I feel. System is as nippy and pleasant to operate as the moment I booted it. I've been expecting the kernel to run out of base RAM at some point - this is a pre-PAE pentium - but 20.5 days in I'm starting to think I'll crack before the it does. If you haven't noticed, I'm quite impressed - but not surprised. So...

          Office for Linux? No. Methinks not. The moment Microsoft released it Linux would eat Microsoft's lunch. Office is the Windows lock-in - without that why wouldn't any firm immediately roll out craploads of cloned Debian, Cent OS or RedHat stations for the Office drones? The brass would have their shiny Macs, the drones would have solid, stable, almost timeless systems to work at and everyone but Microsoft would be laughing all the way to the bank. Slowly migrate those odd specialist apps for the technical types, beancounters and whatnot and what's Microsoft left? MS Office. If I was Balmer, that prospect would not be something I'd want to facilitate.

          1. mmeier

            Re: Also: MS Office For Linux (kernel)

            Never understood the "my workstation has been running x years" claims. My company WS goes on Monday around 9:00AM and out Friday around 17:00. Not needed over the weekend. Depending on what I do it might be off past 17:00 during the week - depends on how lazy I feel closing the IDEs etc. Privat unit(s) are only active when I use them. I have no wind propellor on my roof so I pay through the nose for power(1) so why run when they are not in use. They are "sleeping" since Win8 mostly.

            Uptime is for servers. And even there regular schedules reboots are common to check that a box with patches etc in comes up clean. We did this even for our process control units once every six month (Specialist OS) as well as various Unix and AS/400 series. Better planned with the backup system running than unplanned (Power etc) and not getting the units back.

            As for Linux replacing Windows please remember that Windows is not a cost factor for companies. Small ones get the OS bundled anyway, bigger ones get it at around the same price the OEMs get it. For Linux (or any Unix - you could as well run Solaris on Lenovo or Dell boxes) to replace Windows it has to offer better TOC for the companie. And stuff like "repositories" do not count for many companies since they would never allow "direct updates". Rather the updates etc. are checked by IT and then distributed from an internal server like WSUS on Windows. Installation is "ready image" and a programm that can generate a complete system from a prepared DVD so all units are clones.

            Add in stuff like central policy settings that get forced at login-time to the ActiveDirectory and software like Sharepoint (not too uncommen in companies for INTERNAL use) as well as good mid-level RDBMS (SQL-Server) and file servers with sturdy journaling file systems (NTFS) and you have a package that is nice and tidy. Add in Exchange (and Outlook) that are a class better than the only full alternative (Dominoe/Notes) and make use of many of the above systems. Going "all Windows" for internal IT is convenient and a good long term investment given the fact that MS has a proven track record of delivering updates well past the "end of sales", longer than the LTS support at Linux in total typically.

            (1) I have recently contacted a slave trader and he promises me four health greenies that I'll put to work on a bicycle generator

  5. Lee D Silver badge

    Sigh

    Define "experience". I've been in IT for over a decade. I've used Linux on countless occasions. I've deployed Linux servers and clients left, right and centre. Hell, I've programmed on Linux and created things that run all manner of systems.

    But the same could be said of a lot of other people, who've done less than me. There's a big difference between slapping in a Linux box from an Ubuntu CD as a basic computer, not touching it to configure it, and deploying a properly managed Linux roll-out, even if it's only for a few select machines. There's a big difference between sticking in a pre-fab Linux server and sitting down and building one from software components.

    I have a Linux server in front of me now, another running the website for my workplace, and 50 client machines on Linux upstairs - not to mention what's lying around in terms of kiosks, touchscreens, etc. that do their job nor even things like embedded Linux clients that we use for certain purposes.

    The server, though, runs everything from fax-to-email services, Internet load balancing and fail-over, SMS gateway (with automated integration to do things like open firewalls and even cut the power to other devices through USB relay boards), file server, backup staging server (backup to that, it backs up to a remote overnight), web filter, email server, support ticket server, instant messaging server, VPN server, it provides any number of facilities that staff use every day - hell, it even interrogates remote Firebird databases on embedded devices in our access control software to draw up In/Out boards on the intranet that it serves, and print out lists of people in the case of a fire.

    Now if/when I go, and someone has to come in and manage that, a guy who says "Linux skills" on their CV might not be anywhere close to being able to actually manage it, replicate it or replace it - even with all the documentation in the world. Hell, the version of Hylafax I use has my own custom patches in it and replacing it with a stock version stops a lot of things that people expect to "just work" from working. The kernel is patched to provide proper dropped-connection detection for the external lines and to kick them back into action and modify routing tables as necessary. I know people who, in trying to replicate that functionality, could spend £10,000 on 20 different devices to do the same things.

    My problem with this is that it's like saying "Windows skills are in big demand". All that you'd get it you put "Windows" into a job title / description is a thousand applications from school-leavers who "know Windows". But if you just advertise the job title, that should be enough. If I was to wander into a old-school Unix shop tomorrow, I don't claim to know damn all about it, but if it was my current job that just so happened to be using Unix instead of Windows/Mac/Linux, then I would be expected to pick it up. The skills are transferable and the knowledge is easily available. Somehow singling out Linux as "some magical thing" that earns more money, I think is a silly thing to do. Anyone worth their salt should have played with all current operating systems in one form or another, even if in only quite minor ways.

    If you can't find people with Linux skills, you're not even trying to hire the right sort of people anyway. You're hiring people who've gone through an MCSE and think they know everything there is to know about computers, servers, the Internet and everything else. Of course they are cheaper, but if you'd hired properly in the first place, you could throw just about anything in front of the right person and you wouldn't even need to pay them to train on the new OS, programming language or whatever else.

    The number of people with half-assed Linux "skills" is less than those with half-assed Windows "skills", of course. That goes without saying. But the problem is that if you are honestly hiring someone with a job title of, say, "Linux IT Manager", or "Linux Server Deployment Specialist" or whatever else you want, then it just shows that your existing staff aren't competent or capable of learning something new. In the same way, I'm expected to "just know" Server 2012 and Office 2013 without any formal training, from testing through deployment to end-user support. Because I was hired properly, it's not a hindrance. But sod having to advertise for a "Server 2012 IT Technician" or whatever.

    It costs more, because you're not hiring button-clickers. You're hiring people who have a broad knowledge that covers more than the job initially requires. And separating them from the "I once installed Ubuntu" crowd is kind of what the whole recruitment process is about, whatever the OS.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Sigh

      It does beg the question as to what exactly Linux skills are. From my perspective it is the ability to install and manage preferred distro only and a good example of how the IT industry continues to sell deskilling as desirable.

      I guess it's broadly to be welcomed that Linux is being accepted as a standard server OS and licences aren't just being paid for pretty logos but any companies running anything important on those servers should be prepared to pay for proper sys admins who can install from source, including patching if necessary.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sigh

      "Now if/when I go, and someone has to come in and manage that, a guy who says "Linux skills" on their CV might not be anywhere close to being able to actually manage it, replicate it or replace it - even with all the documentation in the world. "

      Hmm. I've had to manage systems created by people like you. It's usually easier to scrap them and start again with something maintanable, and standard. Most companies only hire sysadmins like that once. Once is enough, sigh.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sigh

      I suppose you should try to be a good citizen and try to have your patches accepted, it they are worth anything, and certainly you have documented everything properly.

    4. sisk

      Re: Sigh

      You make a good point actually. There're plenty of people out there who 'know' Linux well enough to run it at home, but there's a world of difference between running a Linux desktop with the latest version of Mint and deploying and maintaining a Linux server farm. Personally I have my fair share of Linux skills and could probably do some of the jobs that are looking for said skills, but I'd never claim to be at a professional level with Linux in general. I can handle Linux clients and LAMP servers, and if I had to I could probably handle file and print servers, but I'd have to be daft to apply for a position as a Linux administrator with my skillset.

      1. mmeier

        Re: Sigh

        That is the reason why the controllers and distributors of many bot nets and bots are hacked Linux units at the big hosters. Their personal for that department is typically neither certified nor experienced and the installations often are used well past "due date" to cut costs. There is a lot more to secure a system box than setting a root password.

        Good Admins are costly. They need training and tutorship well past "4th semester IT student that likes Linux" and a broad set of skills not only with the base os but also with the software that runs on it, firewalls, load-balancers. performance tuning for the server job(1) and system architecture. And for a system that is visible to the world a good admin is essential.

        Setting up a "toy" box for internal testing/development even at the company level OTOH is plug and play with the big distributions as it is with Windows server. It sits resonably save behind the company firewall (or the DSL router firewall) and modern distributions are pretty much locked down. That is something any software developer does on the side. Performance issues rarely come up (slower is actually better for a test server - if it works good there the customer servers will have no problems) so tuning is not required

        (1) A file server has different needs than an application server or a database server and so on

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sigh

      LOL @ my first post deleted by a mod. Not quite sure if it was for commenting on the lifestyle of penguins, or using a mild 4 letter word begining in c and ending in p. Rather surprising anyway...

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sigh

      Your system sounds like a complete clusterfuck. One might go so far as to suggest you've purposefully built it to be incomprehensible to anyone but yourself for job security purposes.

      "I know people who, in trying to replicate that functionality, could spend £10,000 on 20 different devices to do the same things."

      If those were 20 different devices which were maintained in a standardised manner, and which could therefore have their ownership passed on to others in a usable state without having to rebuild the whole system from scratch, then that sounds like it would be £10,000 well spent.

  6. David Hicks
    Linux

    But but but but but....

    ... linux is just some niche OS only neckbeards and basement dwellers would ever use!

    LOL. The March of the Penguins continues, and we are all richer for it. Especially those of us who work with/on it :)

  7. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. frank ly
      Thumb Down

      Re: Help a fella out

      I am nothing if not helpful.

  8. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    Opportunities for All of whatever Smart Hue

    Meanwhile, a second Senate bill floated on Wednesday, dubbed the "Startup Act 3.0", would create additional visas for foreign entrepreneurs.

    Here is a self-defeating block on major skills migration to the US, virtually guaranteeing cowboy performance and incestuous solutions, and the madness resulting from those is an open secret. ........ Register Now U.S. CITIZENSHIP REQUIRED ..... http://icvirtualfair.com/

    Although, and a lot of folk may not already know this, if you are needed because of what you can do to and/or for Uncle Sam, no matter where you be from, can you suddenly be also a US citizen, which is handy if cowgals are your bag .... or cowboys if that is your bent, and dollars by the fistsful do not disagree with you.:-)

    But, if the gospel truth be told, anyone with the right skillset available for purchase and deployment and future maintenance and protection, is a cash cow for bilking if you are able, or milking if you are not yourself smarter enabled, and invariably always easily bought with nothing more valuable than flash cash/printed paper, which is quite magical, is it not, because for practically/virtually nothing is it possible to have virtually/practically everything and anything, provided those with the right skillsets are provided with their passionate needs and physical desires which can all be easily bought with flash cash so you yourself don't have to bother yourself with supply.

    1. Tom 38

      Re: Opportunities for All of whatever Smart Hue

      Fuck going to America on a skilled worker visa, most visas don't put you on a path towards citizenship, and without citizenship, you're treated worse than Sri Lankan maids in Dubai.

      Friend of mine, working in America for the same company for 5 years, the company and DoHS fuck up his visa renewal, and he gets deported back to the UK in order to renew the visa. Those 5 years, due to his visa type, don't even start him off the road to citizenship. Neither does his baby daughter, legally a US citizen.

      Even with citizenship, you're treated like an American, and who wants that?

      1. sisk

        Re: Opportunities for All of whatever Smart Hue

        Neither does his baby daughter, legally a US citizen.

        If she was born on US soil then you've been lied to. Anyone born here is a US citizen, regardless of the nationality of the parents. At least until she's old enough to renounce it (if she so chooses, of course). That is, of course, unless the law has changed since my high school civics class twenty some-odd years ago.

        As for the road to citizenship, I'm no expert but I believe you have to live here for 7 years before that road opens for anyone regardless of the visa type you have. I was handed my citizenship at birth though, so I may be mistaken about that. The people who have to earn their citizenship are better informed on such things than the rest of us are.

        1. Danny 14

          Re: Opportunities for All of whatever Smart Hue

          I think he meant he wasn't eligible for citizenship even though he had a biological us offspring.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Opportunities for All of whatever Mental Hue

      MEaNWHILE, A SECOND MENTAL BILL LO8D ON WEDNESDAY,, DUBBED THE "MENTAL ACT 3!!!!!!!!111~~ 0", woUld cre8 additionnal visaZ fro frooiegn mental enterpreneurs,, etc ...

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fiction

    I love these articles, they are such a work of fiction. £55k is average? Where? The City and for ultra-highly qualified experts? Take that £55k and divide it my two, that'll give you are more accurate figure.

    As for switching jobs - nearly impossible. The market is dead and the employers want many, many years of expertise and skills for buttons.

    1. David Hicks
      Pint

      Re: Fiction

      Places that are not London, or the UK (or maybe Europe?)

      IT/Software Salaries here are very deflated compared to other places. In the US and Australia they wouldn't stand for the sort of money employers get away with paying in the UK. The only way I've found to match it is to go contracting.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fiction

      Seems accurate to me. Bear in mind that this is an average wage. Lots of people will earn less than this, and some people will earn a lot more than this.

      £55k in the City - ie Linux at a financial firm - would be a joke.

      City != London != UK

      1. David Hicks
        Pint

        Re: Fiction

        "City != London != UK"

        Well it also wasn't a UK survey, it was global, and likely with a huge bias for the US, where $60K would be an insult to anyone with a bit of experience, but £40k seems to be regarded as a 'pretty good salary' here by a lot of folks (outside The City of course).

        1. mmeier

          Re: Fiction

          What is included in the money? I.e how is health care, retirement pay etc. Part of the salary. split 50/50 or not at all and "pay your own".

          British NHS or german "Krankenkasse" may not be the greatest think but they beat what many US workers have easily. Same for retirement systems, number of days of etc. (I.e germans get 25 days minimum if doing 5days/8hours, 30 is more typical)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fiction

        £55K in the City is very good for Linux. That tends to be around the maximum except for a very few exceptions like low latency Gurus...

  10. Magister
    Joke

    Larf

    >> The report found that the average salary for Linux professionals was $90,853 (£58,654). T<<

    Hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha

  11. 1Rafayal

    Quite a lot of positions I have seen floating about lately ask for Windows and Linux admin skills equally.

    I am not sure if there has been a sudden mass death of Linux admins recently.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Linux

    German Employment Agency

    http://jobboerse.arbeitsagentur.de/vamJB/startseite.html?kgr=as&aa=1&m=1&vorschlagsfunktionaktiv=true

    "Linux bash" 138 hits

    "Windows MSCE" 2 hits

    "Linux gcc" 9 hits

    "Windows Visual C++" 146 hits

    "Linux Perl" MORE THAN 200 hits (200 is the limit)

    "Linux Qt" 51 hits

    "Windows Qt" 44 hits

    1. David Hicks
      Linux

      Re: German Employment Agency

      I have had load of agents get in touch re: Germany recently. There does seem to be a big demand for it over there. One or two from Poland too.

      But I've only just moved back to the UK so I have no intention of going anywhere for the forseeable.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: German Employment Agency

      There was a very good article on "More or Less" (Radio 4) a few months ago about why you shouldn't support arguments with search engine hits. I'm not going to go into it here, but just don't, it's wildly inaccurate.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: German Employment Agency

      For a start it's "Microsoft MCSE" - There are Server, SQL and Cloud MCSEs...

      From Jobserve, a rather better known jobsite:

      Microsoft Server - 5,835 jobs

      Microsoft MCSE - 4,693 jobs

      Linux Admin - 2,756 jobs

      Visual C++ 1,483 jobs

      Linux Perl 1,293 jobs

      Linux bash 1,178 jobs

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Go

        Re: German Employment Agency

        Thanks for the correction. "Windows MCSE" is 140 hits on ArbeitsAgentur.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: German Employment Agency @AC 14:20

        Looks like the one he's using is the equivalent of the UK DWP, so I'd tend to look askance at his figures.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Stop

          Re: German Employment Agency @AC 14:20

          I don't know about DWP, but ArbeitsAgentur does have proper jobs in their listings. The search engine works properly. Of course there are tons of other agencies around here.

          And yeah, search engine statistics are certainly not the Objective Picture Of Reality. Maybe someone can come up with the URL to that one !

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: German Employment Agency @Altes Schlachtross

            "I don't know about DWP ..."

            I didn't know about ArbeitsArgentur myself. So I went there. If you do the same with the DWP you might get my point.

            "And yeah, search engine statistics are certainly not the Objective Picture Of Reality. Maybe someone can come up with the URL to that one !"

            And yet, you used those statistics to try to make your point. So I don't know what you're actually trying to say there. Anyway, don't worry about. Everyone here seems to trawl for a site - any site - to support their point. Anyhoo, in your short time since joining, you've demonstrated you're another Eadon (if not just a sock puppet,) so I'll pop you in the same "Troll - don't respond or vote" bin. Please try to avoid posting too much - it's a pain scrolling past this kind of stuff. Thanks.

            1. hplasm
              Trollface

              Re: Please try to avoid posting too much

              Said the AC troll...

      3. hplasm
        Headmaster

        Re: For a start it's "Microsoft MCSE"

        Is that like "PIN Number"?

    4. sisk

      Re: German Employment Agency

      Wait, so the biggest chunk you found was jobs for PERL PROGRAMMERS??? I thought Germany was supposed to be ahead of the times in these things, not living in the last decade.

    5. mmeier

      Re: German Employment Agency

      Ah, die Bodensatz-Verwertungsstelle aka Agentur für Arbeit.

      The german "Agency for Employment" is well known as the LAST place to look for qualified IT personal. The jobs offered are the low paying ones aimed at elder (post 40 with not up to date skills) and those approaching the "will take anything but HarzIV" (a very low level bread and water level stipend) time after 12-18 month of unemployment.

      Higher level hiring is done through recruiting agents, adds in the press and adds on ones website. Not to mention that the search engine is legendary bad...

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    From a fanboi to another

    Having been accused of being a fanboi countless times here among these hallowed pages I am sure my penguin compatriots and I will be quietly smirking and rolling in the dosh soon.

    But seriously, Linux is a natural successor to Unix, which was seen as a multi-tasking, multi-user operating system well-suited for small to medium organisations who could not justify or afford the cost of a mainframe. Having cut my teeth and made a living on it, I am glad to see its return in its present Linux incarnation. As for the dosh - well, I'll leave that to the current generation. I'm quite happy to spend the last phase of my working life in quieter waters accumulating my pension paid for by Windows.

    However, agencies please take note - I shall be available for Linux and Unix consultancy services...!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: From a fanboi to another

      It does seem that Linux is making more in-roads into UNIX serving than Windows serving and certainly Windows desktop. There are an increasingly large amount of big companies who are realising that Big Iron proprietary UNIX no longer has the bang for buck that it used to command. This is particularly an issue when the reliability that it used to have can easily be achieved by Linux or Windows on commodity servers, such as a proliant. I've worked at a couple of companies who now have a strategy of Linux/Windows on VMware, usually with some z/OS and z/Linux as well.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        It does seem that Linux is making more in-roads into UNIX serving than Windows serving

        That certainly fits with my experience - in part this was due to the UNIX admins being happier to give Linux a go in the first place but it was also possible to make savings that way that just weren't possible with a switch of a subset of the Windows servers.

        Still, everywhere I've worked that I am still in contact with has at least some Linux servers, even one place that is a Windows shop as a matter of company policy, and a foot in the door is often all that is needed as I saw when Windows took over from Mainframe / UNIX / NetWare in the 90s

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hang on while I get my neckbeard on

    I do make $90k. And I am looking, and scarily enough there are positions out there that I'm interested in, and offer to match or exceed my current salary.

    But then I took current location from 0 linux hosts to over 1500 in 7 years. I started off in the unix pool, supporting HPUX and Solaris, and added linux. Its been a learning experience the entire path. I've tried to hire to fill the role. IT IS NOT easy. Enterprise skills and linux skills don't appear to be a common pairing, basementware is just not the same, and the number of middling good unix admins who have just "bolted" linux on to their resumes without comprehending the subtle differences makes me sad.

    I'll agree - there are a LOT of linux positions out there, but the vast majority of them also want advanced windows skills in the same package. This is, I will note, not one of my strong points. But then I know a number of excellent windows admins who cannot wrap their heads around the relative simplicity of linux. And if they aren't actually looking for Linux +Windows they are expecting the Linux admins to have advanced skills in Jboss/Weblogic/WebSphere or php coding and perl/python/ruby coding.

    The job market is changing, and folks who have their heads up their asses and think that their specialization makes them special belong on the short bus these days. You need LOTS of good general computing skills to get into any position, and **that** is where I find the gaps in my interviewees. Windows, Linux, AIX, Solaris, HPUX, these are all meaningless without good strong networking concepts, storage concepts and lifecycle concepts. If you don't have the tools on your belt, you will find it hard to get hired.

    -- support the OS, you might want to think about digging into the app layer as well, Databases, application engines, infrastructure tools (dns/ntp/virtualization/ldap) clustering anyone? HA on linux? ANYONE? -- so hard to find... (tuxedo?? anyone out there can do tuxedo on linux PUHlease?)

    Lee, if you think bolting together a hodge podge of hyper tweaked components makes you a valuable linux admin, you would loose the battle in a heartbeat with a large corporate enterprise where the word standardization was used. I've pointed this cliff out numerous times. Once you have an optimization in place that is crafted by a single individual, your entire platform is at risk, to a bus coming down the street. No matter how well documented, the next fellow that has to pick it up and run with it will have to undo the work and redo it HIS way for it to work well. That is a business expense that no corporate wants to eat. And I will admit, a lesson I learned a bit late. But I've learned it. And paid the price.

    Anon since I AM looking.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hang on while I get my neckbeard on

      So that's £58K in real money. Thats on the top end for Linux.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Flame

        How Do You Know ?

        Is it stated on your Redmond Propaganda Sheet ?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How Do You Know ?

          I know because i have hired lots of sys admins and infrastructure experts. The vast majority around the Microsoft space, but there is still plenty of legacy UNIX, Linux and Solaris out there that needs supporting....In my experience Linux admins are paid the lowest of all of those categories.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Flame

            Re: How Do You Know ?

            So Unix is "legacy" and certainly Windows is "standard" ? Muharr.

            They currently implement all the long-time features of Unixoid operating systems on Windows server (proper command line, GUIless operation, software installation without reboot and so on).

            I hear the Linux admins at Google make top dollar. I hear that (almost) all massive-scale datacenters from Facebook to Eurex (#1 in derivatives trading) are running Linux these days.

            Finally, I simply suspect your are here to badmouth anything else than Windows.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: How Do You Know ?

              @Altes Schlachtross: "I hear the Linux admins at Google make top dollar"

              You hear wrongly then, by all accounts Google don't pay or remunerate well. You're supposed to do it for the love of it.

              http://techcrunch.com/2009/01/18/why-google-employees-quit/

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: How Do You Know ?

              Yes, UNIX / midrange is disinvest in many enterprises these days. Just look at the majority of SAP installs going onto SQL server for instance:

              http://www.istockanalyst.com/finance/story/6267663/oracle-corporation-ibm-threat-is-down-microsoft-threat-is-up

              The key Microsoft advantage is its SQL-based servers deliver cost advantages for customers. The trend is evident from the latest second quarter results of Microsoft. Server & Tools revenue rose 9 percent to $5.19 billion, driven by double-digit percentage revenue growth in SQL Server and System Center.

              "Countless customers have told us that the cost advantage of SQL Server is so compelling that their deployment of Microsoft SQL Server databases is ramping," BMO Capital Markets analyst Karl Keirstead said in a client note.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Flame

                @AC: "Unix is disinvest"

                The funny thing about you M$ propaganda operatives is that you can be easily spotted. Your badmouthing of alternatives is just so blatant.

                The IBM Power CPU is actually leading-edge in terms of single-threaded processing performance and therefore is a valuable alternative to x86 CPUs. They beat Intel on a regular basis. You can run Linux, AIX and OS/400 (or whatever they call it these days) on that CPU.

                But yeah, according to M$ propaganda, a CPU faster and younger than x86 is "legacy".

                1. mmeier

                  Re: @AC: "Unix is disinvest"

                  PPC is a nice unit. So is Sparc and quite a few other. The questions are "What does it cost", "will that translate to my demands", "Where will this be in 5/10/15 years" etc.

                  Let's accept PPC is best in "single-threaded performance". How is it in MULTI-Threaded? That is actually of interest in quite a few jobs. And even if it is best there as well - how much does it cost? If for the same price I can get two x86 boxes then the x86 solution is better. The PPC is not "Twice as good" so the two x86 units together will be more powerful. And depending on the job they may offer the benefit of redundancy.

                  CPU like OS are a tool. Professionals use the one that gets the job done at the lowest TOC. This includes stuff like "do we have the experience in house", "does it fit in our environment" and maybe "how many suppliers for the hardware exist / how fast can I get more / replace units(1)"

                  (1) I.e getting a Sicomp M-series mini would take 3-9 month depending on typ. One supplier (Siemens) and no alternatives. That was one reason quite a few users looked for COTS bases alternatives in the 1990s despite the disadvantages like needing triple instead of double redundancy.

                2. TheVogon
                  Mushroom

                  Re: @AC: "Unix is disinvest"

                  "The IBM Power CPU is actually leading-edge in terms of single-threaded processing performance"

                  An Intel Desktop CPU can beat it in standard single threaded benchmarks:

                  http://www.spec.org/cpu2006/results/res2010q2/cpu2006-20100426-10753.html

                  http://www.spec.org/cpu2006/results/res2012q3/cpu2006-20120702-23362.html

          2. David Hicks
            FAIL

            Re: How Do You Know ?

            That's the top end for linux IN THE UK. For the nth time - this is not a UK survey. In other countries decently experienced people wouldn't get out of bed for that much.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Hang on while I get my neckbeard on

        So that's £58K in real money. Thats on the top end for Linux.

        Are we talking monthly?

        £58Kpcm would be nice, where do I sign?

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Get some mad skillz peeps.

    Article might as well be called, Linux, Windows, IT Jobs Market, Debate now. :D

    I done the windows contractor support desk thing for my first 18 months of IT after uni, had to look everywhere for another job, and it was sort of boring.

    Finally took the plunge and attempted to apply for a linux job at a T4 DC. Got it.

    Been getting contacted on a weekly basis about linux jobs accross the board for the past year. Also, why are agents orange?

    Someone else said get some application support under the belt, db's, middleware, ldaps, clustering, or anything in addition to bog standard linux sys admin gear and you're sorted, I agree with this fellow.

    I however disagree at the 58k number. I'd rather see age / exp versus av. salary in the field. I reckon this is so high because the majority of linux admins are oldies (no offence to the oldies <3).

    Recently done an RH rapid track course, most punters were older than 25. So tell me, what's the average age / experience of a linux chappie? I'm 23 and been dishing about with linux since 14/15 with real world experience of 12 months. Also had to get one of those networking degrees, did you know people don't take you seriously without one? total joke.

    note:

    Also if you're up for it, I found compiling and putting together a gentoo cluster for some lamp hosting was a great challenge and taught me a lot before going for a linux job, it impresses the interviewers too, they like a bit of compiling and optimiSing everything from source.

    ps. agencies, i'm not currently available.

    AC - Because I don't want you to add me on LI. Acronyms?

    1. David Hicks
      Linux

      Re: Get some mad skillz peeps.

      "I however disagree at the 58k number. I'd rather see age / exp versus av. salary in the field. I reckon this is so high because the majority of linux admins are oldies (no offence to the oldies <3)."

      I've said it in several other places so I'll say it here too:

      This is not a UK survey, it's an international one. Wages for tech work are *very* depressed here compared to the US where most respondents are likely from. I got a 50% raise just by moving abroad a few years ago. Then they gave me another 10% a couple of months later because they thought I was underpaid and would leave. And I was on an apparently decent salary for London.

  16. Steve Martins
    Facepalm

    How to become "Experienced"?

    I've set up quite a lot of Linux systems over the years... Unfortunately because they don't tend to break i haven't had as many real world hours on them as windows. In fact if they go wrong I'm screwed because my memory no longer extends back that far!! dammit!!!

  17. Danny 14
    Stop

    @Eadon. It shows how out of touch you are with MS stuff. Sure for "administering" windows along the lines of adding users, making directories, shares et al then yes, GUI is the way to do it.

    Start moving onto IIS, Exchange, clustering even hyperV etc and you need to use powershell. The GUI doesnt expose the heavy stuff. In fact you cannot administer exchange properly without powershell and once you learn to do your own scripts then you dont use the GUI - the same as linux.

    Most of my routine jobs are either GPO'd so a script does them for me or a powershell on schedule (auto creation of email accouts or pruning of IIS logs for certain events etc). I do a similar thing on my linux filter server with perl. Only the apprentice uses GUI as he is new.

    Powershell is the core of new server tools. Even if you use GUI you will be learning to script. As for paid more, you were telling me linux gurus work for free in an earlier post. I begged to differ.

    1. Lars Silver badge
      Linux

      @Danny 14

      It's nice to see that MS people (now that they have the choice) understand that the shell is a tool, and a very powerful tool too. The shell does not kill the GUI nor does the GUI kill the shell. But scripting needs the shell.

      What annoys me is this talk about being "old fashioned" using the shell or it being somehow so difficult to learn.

      According to some Microsoft programmers years ago the Windows shell was killed internally by marketing people who decided it was "old fashion". Quite funny really. Microsoft had a wide open window with the NT to really move Unix to Windows on servers. I took part in it and quite a number of HP/UX and SCO customers moved to the NT. To make that possible we had to use software from some University in Utah. (sed, grep and similar).

      The fact that Microsoft was too stupid to understand the value of scripting closed that window and suddenly there was Linux. To be honest I am damned pleased. There was an other rather funny thing in this change from Unix to the NT too. Each and every NT customer was forced to upgrade their hardware as those old and tired Unix machines outperformed the new NT hardware. The reason to this, I think, was that the salesmen of the new hardware had a look at the Mhz on the Unix box and decided that times four or more Mhz would make the software on the NT fly. It never did.

      And let me add that I have never seen anybody using the GUI who has not done it repeatedly all over and over again if it's a slightly bigger job. A well made script is so damned fast compared to that. Not to mention asking a customer (in the phone) to click this or that compared to sending her a script to run.

      Anyway let us shell and scripting people unite.

  18. Herby

    One thing about jobs...

    ...you tend to go to one where they will:

    1) Pay You what you believe you are worth.

    2) You believe you can contribute to their effort with your skills.

    If "Linux" and "58k UKP" are the magic for you, then you should go ahead. If you have other skills, then the matrix will be different. Your choice!

    Thankfully we here in the USA have the 13th amendment which helps.

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