back to article Eyes in the sky: UK.gov's CCTV code to IGNORE MILLIONS of cameras

The coalition government, keen to avoid being seen in the same light as the database and snooping-obsessed previous Labour administration, has issued a draft code of practice that it claims "introduces a philosophy of surveillance by consent". But the code won't cover the vast majority of cameras* that are operated privately …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hmmm

    "Police and local authorities will be required to meet the code, which is built on 12 "guiding principles", but if they breach it, no sanctions will be brought against them."

    So other than keeping civil servants in their comfy, superannuated positions, the point of this load of tosh would be?

  2. Silverburn

    "a philosophy of surveillance by consent"

    That's just a load of bollox, innit?

    My philosophy is "people consent to each give me £1 every day". It's probably a damned sight more enforceable than this typical "must be seen to be doing something" crap.

  3. Neil Barnes Silver badge
    FAIL

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Not a part time commissioner, it seems.

    Is there any actual evidence that these intrusive and offensive objects have ever done anything to prevent a crime occurring? Or indeed, done anything except taught miscreants to wear hoodies?

    1. The last doughnut

      Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

      No but there is extensive anecdotal evidence of crimes being observed by CCTV where the responsible authorities refuse to review or release the recorded material in support of the victims of said crime.

    2. PC Paul
      Meh

      Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

      When some yobbo decided to slash the tyres on a number of cars including mine on a city centre street at 9pm, the CCTV spotted him and his mates and they were being arrested as I returned to the car a few minutes later. So CCTV worked well there.

      Not so much the 'Justice System' where he got sentenced to a couple of weeks doing "hard time with TV and burgers". I was told it wan't worth trying to get any recompense for my nearly-new tyres as he would at best be told to pay it back at 20p a week forever and in the process would probably be told my name and address...

  4. Silverburn

    2011 that 1.85 million CCTV cameras were watching the British public

    And yet...every time I've actually required the use of one, say when I got mugged, or when my bike was stolen and when my car was victim of a hit & run...*none* of the operators had any film in, or they were switched off, or nobody was on duty at the time etc etc.

    What happens then?

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "The coalition government, keen to avoid being seen in the same light as the database and snooping-obsessed previous Labour administration, has issued a draft code of practice that it claims "introduces a philosophy of surveillance by consent"."

    Typical Tory ploy which, unfortunately, the plebs will not see through like a pane of glass.

    I hate the english. I hate being surrounded by dim-wits.

    1. sabroni Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      We despise you too, if it helps....

    2. Bumpy Cat
      WTF?

      Don't worry, we hate you too.

      (I'm not actually English, but I am sick of whining idiots like you. If you hate the place so much, why don't you leave?)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Oh no, scummy people hate me. Shocker!

        "(I'm not actually English, but I am sick of whining idiots like you. If you hate the place so much, why don't you leave?)"

        WOW you though that one out throughly didn't you? "whining idiot" or ENGLISH citizen who expects MORE from the scummy populace. You clearly don't give a shite about England, so maybe we would all be better off if "your sort" followed your own advice?

        1. dogged

          I'm English.

          You're annoying.

          I don't want to be watched all the time. I support kids wearing hoodies to avoid it. Good for them.

          Also, I hope they shit on your doorstep.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "I'm English.

            You're annoying.

            I don't want to be watched all the time. I support kids wearing hoodies to avoid it. Good for them.

            Also, I hope they shit on your doorstep."

            Scummy kids from scummy parents. Another set of rats with no morals/dignity/education/worth.

            Thanks for confirmation.

        2. Spanners Silver badge
          Boffin

          " ENGLISH citizen"?

          There is no such thing as an English citizen, or a Scottish one, a Welsh one or a Northern Irish one.

          Why?

          None of them are independent nations. Hopefully, this will remain basically the same even though, like many Scots, I am concerned about the unmitigated stupidity of some people who want to break up the UK for their own political gain.

          There is not an English Army. There is not a Scottish currency. There is no such thing as a Welsh passport. There are many people who identify as English, Scottish and so on. I do. that is my ethnicity, not my nationality. There are British citizens who are English.I have colleagues who are very British but whose parents came here from other places, They are not English either. They are however the same nationality as me and we are both the better for it.

          Got that?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: " ENGLISH citizen"?@Spanners

            Mind you,there's precious few "English" people choosing to live in Scotland. If you're not Scots, and have ever applied for a job there you'll know what I mean.....

            1. dogged

              Re: " ENGLISH citizen"?@Spanners

              Not really, I lived and worked in Scotland for a couple of years. It was great.

              Glasgow > Edinburgh, btw.

              1. daveeff
                Big Brother

                Re: " ENGLISH citizen"?@Spanners

                British CITIZEN?

                Aren't we British Subjects?

                Subjects of observation it seems...

                Or are we becoming Citizens now BB is watching us? (Shouldn't all the posts have this pic?)

      2. OffBeatMammal

        I did

        sadly I saw the way the place was heading and got out while the going is good. England is a nice place to visit... but 2 weeks is about all I can take before the frustration kicks in again at what it's become

    3. Elmer Phud

      " issued a draft code of practice that it claims "introduces a philosophy of surveillance by consent".""

      Your consent is automatically given by being in the U.K.

      But rest assured that the only cameras working will be the ones that bring in the most revenue.

  6. Daemon Byte
    Facepalm

    so not only is it a waste of time

    because there is no reason to follow it even if there was sanctions they could just contract it out to a private firm and avoid it anyway. Pointless political headline scoring.

  7. The Alpha Klutz

    There is a bright side to living in a police state

    The government will provide vouchers for my internet connection.

  8. Andy The Hat Silver badge

    You're all missing the point. The guidelines will show how to make more cash out of cameras by selling material to "I am being Framed, Guv'", "Blimey that was rather a nasty axe-wielding incident Officer" or "Bollocks was I doin' a ton in a 30 mate" ... or perhaps even "Big Brother - The Reality Show ..."

  9. El Presidente
    Facepalm

    The vast majority

    Of CCTV cameras are so under powered as to be next to useless and the vast majority of CCTV cameras are sighted in areas of high crime and low demeanour. Why live in such an area?

  10. El Presidente

    Sited

    obv ..

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If it weren't for cameras....

    Then a hell of a lot more crime would go unsolved.

    On our daily briefs at the station, there's a plethora of CCTV imagery that has the suspects face clearly on screen. It's like a game of bingo..

    "I know him!"

    "That's such and such!"

    etc

    The Reporting Officer will duly be informed and roll around to his house to detain or arrest that suspect.

    They do also stop crime, believe it or not, but like the 'Anti Tiger' rock in the Simpsons, it's one of those harder things to prove.

    Ideal scenario is that every street in the UK has a camera on it. At the end of the day, if you're innocent, what's your problem?

    1. Gordon 10
      Thumb Up

      Re: If it weren't for cameras....

      "At the end of the day, if you're innocent, what's your problem?"

      The problem is that innocence depends very much on the vagaries of the day.

      One day its mugging a granny, breaking a shop window..... one regime change later its looking Islamic, thinking suspiciously, applying for a school place out of catchment. Oh Ripa already covers the last one - Move it to the top.

    2. El Presidente
      FAIL

      Re: If it weren't for cameras....

      "if you're innocent, what's your problem?"

      You, yours and your mindset.

    3. hplasm
      Big Brother

      Re:"At the end of the day, if you're innocent, what's your problem?"

      You.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Ideal scenario is that every street in the UK has a camera on it

      Not that I normally feed the trolls but...

      The ideal scenario is that there would be a bobby on the beat deterring crime, not a camera recording it.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ideal scenario ... At the end of the day, if you're innocent, what's your problem?

    FFS.

    For the same reason I won't want cameras in my living room, bedroom, toilet. Not because I'm guilty of anything but that it's none of your f***ing business. Privacy != Secrecy.

    In and ideal situation the CCTV cameras would all be outside the police and MP's houses and be viewable by the public who are paying for their services - that's how it generally works, EMPLOYER watching the EMPLOYEE - not the other way around.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Ideal scenario ... At the end of the day, if you're innocent, what's your problem?

      Nice realistic example there.

      However, when you're walking down the street, guess what? That's a public place, meaning it's the role of the government to protect you.

      Now, they can do that in a variety of ways:

      1 - Have lots and lots and lots of police officers available to cover every major street, pedestrian precinct, etcetc in the country

      Of course, that'll be represented in the massive tax bill that you'd all be getting slapped with for those services, and of course, the quality of the officers will decline as the intake process is required to take 2nd and 3rd choice candidates to fill the slots. (I believe this already happens in England having worked with your cops. Not so much in Scotland..)

      2 - Have a wide CCTV coverage monitored from several control rooms which are linked directly into Police networks and will actively alert officers to ongoing crime, which is then co-ordinated through Force Control Centre to dispatch officers, update live time, pass descriptions, and the footage itself which will then be the corroborative evidence.

      Happens already, works very, very well in Scotland at least.

      What people forget is that there are thousands of victims of crime whereby there would never have been an arrest or detention were it not for positive ID via CCTV, and there certainly wouldn't have been an arrest without the corroborative evidence of CCTV.

      Assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, thefts, etc,etc.... Unless two people have seen it happen, you're not going to get an arrest. You need further admissable evidence. That's your CCTV.

      Works a charm.

      1. El Presidente
        FAIL

        Now, they can do that in a variety of ways

        You forgot 3:

        Turn politician's gaze away from lining their own pockets by sucking up to Big Business and force them to turn their attentions towards providing real opportunities for the have nots by way of long form government instead of the tabloid practice of satisfying the 24 hour news cycle. Whilst lining their own pockets.

        The root cause of crime is perceived helplessness in the midst of predicated poverty. Add lack of social mobility, poor, relevant, education, persistent meddling in the education system by ministers with a portfolio but without qualifications or experience and you have the perfect recipe for creating an underclass which feeds the status quo. And the status quo would prefer it that way.

        What people (like you) forget is that there are millions of people like us who do not commit crime and do not want, need or deserve to be survived for any purpose. Especially 'just in case'

        However vociferous you are in presenting your spurious argument, you're wrong.

        1. El Presidente

          Re: Now, they can do that in a variety of ways

          Irrelevant .. surveilled

        2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Now, they can do that in a variety of ways

          >The root cause of crime is perceived helplessness in the midst of predicated poverty

          Really ?

          Politicians steal expenses, bankers rob investors and companies fiddle health and safety rules because they feel helpless about poverty?

          1. El Presidente
            FAIL

            Re: Now, they can do that in a variety of ways

            "Really ? Politicians steal expenses, bankers rob investors and companies fiddle health and safety rules because they feel helpless about poverty?"

            No. That's opportunistic looting in the meleé.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ideal scenario ... At the end of the day, if you're innocent, what's your problem?

        My comment about the CCTV in the bedroom, etc was deliberately flippant - purely to highlight the stupidity of your last sentence about 'in an ideal world....nothing to hide, nothing to fear' bollocks.

        Up to that point you were making sense, and yes I do see the sense in CCTV and accept it can reduce crime - but so does locking everybody up in solitary. The final part of your original comment totally discredits you, and makes me think that you should be the LAST person involved in CCTV. The scary thing is - and you seem to believe it.

        Question - would you be in favour of implanting tracking chips into everybody? After all it could/would reduce crime as fake alibis would be harder and you would be able to place people at the scene, etc. Does this make it a good idea in your 'ideal world'?

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ideal scenario ... At the end of the day, if you're innocent, what's your problem?

        The East German Stasi used to constantly monitor the people for signs of criminal activity, they just couldn't afford your preferred high tech CCTV Networked Camera solution.

        Tell me what's it like to hold views which would have no doubt done you very well in such an organisation as that?

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Question

    Is a camera on a bus considered being in a public place?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Question

      Yes. A public place is any place to which the public can be afforded entry whether or payment or not.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Question

      Thanks AC. I wasn't sure what the definition was. It is strange that cameras in 'public' places are exempt from this based purely on who operates them. Personally I'd be even tougher on private organisations who record the public (or at least as strict).

      LOL - somebody actually down-voted my question.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Question

      "Is a camera on a bus considered being in a public place?"

      I think you'll find that bus drivers would refuse to work after 8:00pm if there wasn't a camera on the bus.

      Drivers are considered as at-risk lone-workers, their employers have a duty of care to provide security; a camera is a big deterrent to would-be attackers.

      People are poor witnesses, they can be intimidated by violence, studies show their recall of faces and events can be extremely poor. A camera is the equivalent of at least four people; if are you going to put a bobby on every street then it needs to be round the clock, so three shifts per day for seven days a week is twenty-one 8 hour shifts and a single person only works five shifts a week (not taking into account holidays).

      People caught on camera tend to admit guilt and save the cost of a trial, when it's a witness then it becomes "he said she said" and CPS may not even bother to prosecute.

  14. Anonymous Сoward
    Facepalm

    Watchdogs with teeth please

    Can we please give our watchdogs some actual fangs to sink into these people who don't follow the rules, it seems that they've been wearing kid gloves that long they don't know how to get them off!

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Watchdogs with teeth please

      But how would you tell if the operators weren't following the rules?

      You would have to fit CCTV to watch them .....

    2. jon 72
      Terminator

      Re: Watchdogs with teeth please

      The sharks with lasers are a bit temperamental but there is a nice selection of robotic paintball guns.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wouldn't it just be easier to send chavs and the like off to camps and gas them?

    The last thing the UK needs is inbred morons inbreeding more inbred morons.

  16. Spanners Silver badge
    Happy

    We want more cameras where I work.

    There are many places where plenty people want more cameras. These are not just "high crime areas, but them as well as, hospitals, buses - add your own choices here.

    I work in a hospital. They are there for my welfare. Because of that, they are there for your health as well. Without cameras, how many A&Es would be able to open 24/7? Or do you think that your average bus driver should carry a hand gun as they do in the USA? You would have even less people using them.

    The alternative seems to be either an armed populace with frequent shootings or lots of cameras and a lower chance of getting shot by a random stranger who has gone off their rocker. Cameras every time for me!

  17. FunkyEric
    Pint

    It's a dilemma isn't it?

    We like our privacy, but when I got mugged in a subway in Birmingham at 3am and left unconscious in the cold in the middle of winter without a coat ('cos he took that) it was rather useful that it was all seen on CCTV and so they sent an ambulance to pick me up and take me to hospital where I woke up many hours later. Without that CCTV I could have died out there.

    I think the unfortunate thing with these proposals is that they are un-enforceable and so rather pointless. We have to accept that CCTV is a fact of life now, we can't un-invent it and we're extremely unlikely to ban it. So we really ought to be providing a suitable statutory regulatory framework with teeth. But the politicians have no vested interest in that happening so it won't.

    Beer 'cos it's Friday.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Look at the bright side

    If you want to spy on the whole population you need almost half the population to do it. That is nice, not much unemployment then. The problem, however, is how to spy on those spying. In East Germany they succeed quit nicely, unfortunately all the good work was spoiled due to problems in a slightly bigger country to the east.

    So if one tried to look at it on the bright side then one would have to imagine somebody asking you - "Sir, any eyewitness". Surprisingly, perhaps it's about the rules, after all, who, how and where.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There is very little evidence that CCTV does anything to prevent crime. So little, in fact, after so many years of having the cameras pointing at us, that one can assume that the falsifiable premise "it prevents crime" has been well and truly falsified. But it definitely helps the police catch criminals after the event. So take that fact plus the terrible reoffending rates and the conclusion is that CCTV simply helps recycle criminals through the whole sorry system that bit faster, while putting a serious crimp in basic concepts of freedom of movement and association.

  20. daveeff

    bobby on the beat?

    What actually is the difference between having a camera and a bobby looking over your shoulder 24/7?

    OK the bobby might get stuck in if there is trouble, and because of that is a better deterent to trouble but (s)he costs more than is feasible to have everywhere, all the time.

    What I don't get is the "I want my privacy AND I want a plod marching up and down my street 24/7" Isn't that a contradiction?

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