back to article Apple, Samsung patent judge: 'I feel like I'm in Groundhog Day here'

Samsung tried its very hardest to argue for a retrial in a hearing with Apple yesterday, as the fruity firm pushed for additional damages on top of the $1bn it already won. The hearing was ostensibly to discuss permanent bans on sales of Samsung products that a jury decided infringed Apple patents, but the South Korean firm's …

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  1. Thomas 4
    Facepalm

    No, Miss Koh, you are not.

    Groundhog Day was a fun and enjoyable experience.

    1. Ilsa Loving

      Re: No, Miss Koh, you are not.

      Only for those on the outside, looking in. I think Bill Murray's character would simply nod knowingly and sympathetically to the judge.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No, Miss Koh, you are not.

      Less like "Groundhog Day" more like "Vantage Point "

      Both will end up as wasting the time of the general public.

      1. ChrisInAStrangeLand

        Re: No, Miss Koh, you are not.

        "Both will end up as wasting the time of the general public."

        The public are wasting the courts time by granting millions of dubious patents. "The People" are the villains in this case.

        1. TheOtherHobbes

          Re: No, Miss Koh, you are not.

          You should phone the PO and tell them to stop.

    3. Spoonsinger
      Unhappy

      Groundhog Day was a fun and enjoyable experience.

      So basically "12:01 PM" - i.e just really sad.

  2. EyeCU

    Samsung need a new legal team

    Even just looking at the jury foreman produces enough material to get it dismissed without referring to the issue of his failing to declare a previous interest.

    Just look at some of his press statements:

    The highlight of my career

    Prior art doesn't count as it doesn't run on the same hardware

    I told them what to say as they didn't understand the issues

    and so on, how Samsungs lawyers haven't managed to get it declared a mistrial yet I don't know.

    1. Bob Vistakin
      Unhappy

      Re: Samsung need a new legal team

      "how Samsungs lawyers haven't managed to get it declared a mistrial yet I don't know."

      Apple are using the best court they could buy, in their own backyard, natch.

  3. noboard
    Unhappy

    Anyone else

    Get the feeling the Judge is also part of the problem. Fair enough warn them that negotiating is better than going to trial, but as its painfully obvious the two sides will never agree, just get on with it. Boot her out, get another person in and get on with round 2.

    I want my popcorn icon

    1. Jediben
      Devil

      Re: Anyone else

      I agree, it almost seems that she doesn't want to make any decisions. Could it be because the onlyrational one is going to cost a US company a whole lot of wonga?

    2. Richard 120

      Re: Anyone else

      I was thinking the same thing and also wondering if it would play out the same way if it were in the UK.

      I can't help but feel that Judge Koh is a bit self serving, she seems to me to be complaining about what is in effect due process and having to do what she's employed to do.

      The way that it's all played out in the courts and the media in the US makes the whole thing a bit of a freak show which is gathering attention seeking legal people, and probably turning people who may once have been not interested in attention around, once there's a little bit of hype people start to believe their own press and seem to crave more of the same and adjust their behaviour to accumulate attention.

      1. Dr. Mouse

        Re: Anyone else

        I agree that Judge Koh seems to be complaining about having to do her job, but then I doubt she ever expected her job to involve what amounts to being a kindergarten teacher.

        In her place, I would refer them both to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.

      2. FlossyThePig

        Re: Anyone else

        "I was thinking the same thing and also wondering if it would play out the same way if it were in the UK."

        http://www.apple.com/uk/legal-judgement/

      3. gkroog
        Stop

        Re: Anyone else

        Sure, she can seem to be complaining about due process, but she is urging Apple to settle with Samsung "saying it would be good for customers and the industry". Which it will be because they can both get back to innovating, something Apple actually seems to NOT to be doing, while it tries to keep Samsung from doing business. Samsung crows that they're all for that, so it seems to be Apple digging in their heels so that they can extract their "pound of flesh" to teach the world a lesson.

        "Stealing is wronng," whined Tim Cook, who's company has since been found guilty of usurping IP of a Swiss photographer and the Swiss railways, as well as that of VirtnetX...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Anyone else

          Surely a secret agreement behind closed doors between these two is the last thing the world wants or needs.

          The issues are important and should be decided in law. Yes I know you are going to whine about money going to lawyers, but nevertheless there should be a clear and legal decision, not one based on not paying lawyers.

        2. LPF

          Re: Anyone else

          Hmmm they paid a license and all parties were happy , whereas samsung, was judged to be part of a price fixing cartel

          http://gigaom.com/europe/samsung-lg-and-others-hit-with-record-1-92bn-eu-fine-over-crt-screen-cartels/

          I know which one has done the more damage!

    3. Alan Denman

      Re: Anyone else

      From the very start she brought a rather strange touch to the proceedings.

      There was never to be a winner so it really needed a more clinical strategy.

      It should never have had a jury either.

    4. J. R. Hartley

      Re: Anyone else

      Fucking hell I am sick to death of AAPL and their bullshit.

      Can't wait til they go tits up.

    5. cs94njw
      FAIL

      Re: Anyone else

      I wonder what court cases are being delayed because of this. I appreciate this is corporate court or some-such, but surely that judge's abilities are better used elsewhere.

  4. tony
    Happy

    Flip a coin, loser doesn't make phones anymore?

    1. wowfood

      So long as it's double sided with the samsung logo on both sides I'm all up for that.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Which would really help the market wouldn't it? reduce competition and choice, great move.

        1. tony
          Happy

          Wow, phone fangirlz & boyz are super serious.

          Remember choosing a phone is not just a relatively cheap commitment you can dispose of after a few months it's for life.

          God help you when you have to get a mortgage.

          1. Mark .

            When I bought a house, I was thankfully able to have a full choice of houses, even though most of them followed this rectangular-corner pattern, and all followed this same basic design.

            1. peter 45
              Facepalm

              "full choice of houses"

              Yeh but I bet none of them had rectangular windows with rounded corners.

      2. csumpi
        Paris Hilton

        "So long as it's double sided with the samsung logo on both sides I'm all up for that."

        So bitter. But you know, you don't need a time machine to have a phone that Apple will have in three years. It's already being made by Samsung. So you can just get it and be happy.

  5. mhoulden
    Stop

    Does the judge have any power to tell the squabbling parties that the case is over and they should go forth and multiply? Apple vs Samsung is getting to be like a cross between the cases of Tweedledum and Tweedledee, and Jarndyce vs Jarndyce. It's something of an open secret that the main purpose of patent litigation like this is to slow the competition down with a protracted and very expensive process rather than the actual outcome.

  6. wowfood

    Honestly the jury shouldn't have been in charge of how much should be awarded for damages. They should have decided which patents were infringed upon, and which phones infringed with the damages calculated afterwards based on those figures, a % of earnings per patent infringed with a maximum of 20% (or something) That way we'd know at least that the damages were fair.

  7. John H Woods Silver badge

    A jury of their peers...

    ... wouldn't that be composed of representatives of other tech / phone companies rather than individuals? I really cannot see why a jury of laypeople is necessary, or even desirable in cases like this.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A jury of their peers...

      I've always wondered about that phrase.... who decides who your peers are? has anyone ever actually complained because the jury are not their peers??

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A jury of their peers...

      At a guess it's for reasons such as:

      As a phone company, I prefer Samsung as they ship Android as their OS which as an operator, I can then customise with all of my own junk, helping to lock customers into my network. Apple on the other hand supply a closed OS that is the same on every other network.

      Although I do agree that there needs to be some kind of tech knowledge involved to avoid the whole jury listening to one man with motives. Perhaps a jury of retired tech's from small unknown companies who've probably gone belly up by now.

  8. dotdavid

    "She urged the companies again to settle, saying it would be good for customers and the industry if they did"

    Probably better for customers and the industry if the case could be dismissed, with no damages granted, so these stupid patent lawsuits can stop.

    1. Martin 47

      Probably better if she told them both that neither of them could sell any phones until the case was settled.

      1. BorkedAgain
        Thumb Up

        @Martin 47

        Spot on. They'd sort it out in about no time flat, then...

  9. Mark .

    "She urged the companies again to settle, saying it would be good for customers and the industry if they did."

    It would be good for customers and the industry to throw this out of court (as done in the UK and elsewhere).

    If APPL can get a billion for double clicks and rounded rectangles, they're not going to accept a small amount as a settlement. And, never mind not being fair to Samsung, if they were to settle for a huge amount (or any non-trivial amount), this would neither be good for customers (higher prices, less choice) or the industry (they'd be going after everyone else, too).

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It's hardly a billion just for that - they ripped off the whole thing - you look at them side by side and even their own legal team could not tell them apart - not THAT is embarrassing.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @MArk again.again.again

      "If APPL can get a billion for double clicks and rounded rectangles"

      Since they didn't you demonstrate yet again what a trolling idiot moron you are.

  10. The BigYin

    Easy answer

    Get the Apple and Samsung top brass together. Add their respective legal teams.

    Put them all in a large sack.

    Charge the public USA$5 to beat the sack with a stick until they are exhausted.

    You'll always hit the guilty party, the obese USA-ians will get some much needed exercise and you'll raise some money to boot (donate that to charity).

    1. Grikath
      Pint

      Re: Easy answer

      "Some" money... ?

      With the amount *that* particular idea would bring in you would be able to clear the deficit of a small state... ;)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Easy answer

      Only morons resort to physical violence. I always thought better of The Register's readership.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Easy answer

        Only morons hide behind an anon mask while insulting others.

      2. The BigYin

        Re: Easy answer

        Dear Anon,

        Do get out more. There's a good fellow.

      3. Fink-Nottle

        Re: Easy answer

        > Only morons resort to physical violence. I always thought better of The Register's readership.

        OK, then ...

        - Put them all in a large sack.

        - Build a robot with that is able to beat the sack with the stick.

        - Give the robot a vaguely sexist acronym and allow it to beat the sack until it is exhausted.

        Better?

        1. Lockwood

          Re: Easy answer

          Needs moar Playmobil

        2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Terminator

          Re: Easy answer

          > Give the robot a vaguely sexist acronym

          This, Sir, is demeaning to robots. I demand satisfaction!

          1. The BigYin

            Re: Easy answer

            "This, Sir, is demeaning to robots. I demand satisfaction!"

            There's a robot for that...

            1. Gannon (J.) Dick

              Re: Easy answer

              There's a robot for every robot, or so they say.

      4. Anonymous Cowerd
        FAIL

        re "Only morons resort to physical violence"

        That's up there with

        "War! What is is good for?"

        Well, ridding Europe of a genocidal megalomaniac about 70 years ago for starters.

    3. ZAM
      Thumb Up

      Re: Easy answer

      +1 Man . . . Would enjoy that and I could use the exercise being a geek that sit on his arse too much . . . ;))

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just pay up

    Samsung should just pay up as per the original verdict, get it over and done with and do their own thing from here on...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Just pay up

      The problem with "do your own thing" is that Apple have patents on obvious stupid stuff and will still sue you.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Just pay up

        > The problem with "do your own thing" is that Apple have patents on obvious stupid stuff and will still sue you.

        This is exactly what the problem is here.

        This court case is about two companies wanting the other to just disappear. No-one can win a dispute like that. It's no better than getting two bickering school kids to shake and "make up". It might make the teacher feel good, but at the end of the day the kids still hate each other and they'll take it outside the school yard later on.

        There is nothing in it for either side to make up, particularly for Samsung because a settled court case will not actually solve anything for them. Apple will just go after them for something else ad infinitum.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Just pay up

        even if it is true what you say, then they have the patents don't they by your own definition. So grow up, move on and do you own thing...If Apple has the patents stop infringing them and be innovative yourself...Its tough but those are the rules of the game...

        1. Corinne
          FAIL

          @AC 06:04 Re: Just pay up

          The big issue is whether the design patents are valid or not, as the USPO seems to go by the theory of awarding any patent applied for then letting it be tested in the courts. The key word from your post is innovative, most of these design patents are obvious and have prior art and therefore shouldn't have been awarded in the first place. The problem in this particular court case was that the jury allowed themselves to be guided by a member of that jury who acted in a way that broke the rules and had a personal agenda.

          I did start typing an analogy from a very different area (not cars for a change!) but decided it was a waste of time as you clearly haven't read all the comments on previous articles on this subject and just parrot "Apple have a patent" ignoring the validity or not of that patent.

          * Note I am not a fan of either company. I own an iPOD, I have some other Samsung household devices, and I don't have a smartphone.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Just pay up

        You make out like Apple are the only ones doing to suing a would you really just bend over if someone just copied your product...?

    2. ZAM
      Alert

      Re: Just pay up

      Why should they do that. It seem pretty clear that the foreman and/or the jury screwed up. Didn't follow the judge's instructions and were in such a rush that the damage award makes no sense. Something is wrong with the way the jury handled the deliberations.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Just pay up

        It's pretty irrelevant and almost 20 years ago and with a different company that Samsung (more recently) have a link with - but then I imagine Apple do as well (as a customer).

    3. peter 45
      Facepalm

      Re: Just pay up

      ...and that discourages the tidal wave of stupid patents of the trivia and legal battles hoping for big payouts how exactly?

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why is Samsung still pushing this 20 year old conflict with the foreman, if anything THEY were the ones who knew about it since it was Samsung who were directly involved in that deal. It makes it seem a lot like it was Samsung who kept that fact hidden as an option to declare a mistrial, the judge should pick up on that.

    They should just settle like HTC did, they've even seen that settlement agreement in full now.. Guess the only catch is it doesn't let them copy Apple's designs.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Fail: HTC was Technology Patents, Samsung was Design Patents

      <<They should just settle like HTC did, they've even seen that settlement agreement in full now.. Guess the only catch is it doesn't let them copy Apple's designs>>

      Oh, and HTC androids look radically different to Apple and Samsung don't they? Don't they?!?

      effin' rounded corners, better take a look at HTC Desire, and just about every other phone if you think that's valid, as well as the laptop I'm typing this on.

      As for the foreman, if you went for a job interview and started raving about all this experience that was valuable, but had neglected to put it on your CV, would you expect the boss to be a bit curious as to your motives? He failed to tell the judge, but used it as leverage to the rest of the jury as a reason to follow his lead, which is a dubious strategy at best.

      1. LPF

        Re: Fail: HTC was Technology Patents, Samsung was Design Patents

        HTC phones do look different from Apple ones and you can tell them easily, I own an HTC HD2. The Samsung S2 wasa rip off of the iPhone4 and you have to be blind to not notice that.

        Strangly enough the s3 Looks nothing like the iPhone5 nothing like a lwasuit , to make people actualy get off thier arses and design their own stuff for a change!

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    I'd be more worries about Mr Hogan's other cockups.

    Like him acting as technical advisor to the rest of the jury, and his understanding of prior art being fundamentally flawed.

    Surely this makes HIM (and him alone) judge, jury and executioner, and it was never a trial by jury, but a trial by a single juror, one that had previous grievance with Samsung, and didn't understand fundamental legal and technical terminology...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I'd be more worries about Mr Hogan's other cockups.

      This the second time in the last three months that I have felt obliged to upvote one of your post. This is so embarrassing that I feel that I have to hide my identity to avoid completely destroying my street-cred.

      1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

        Re: I'd be more worries about Mr Hogan's other cockups.

        I gave my upvote to you, rather than Baz.

  14. rogerpjr
    Thumb Down

    Sounds like she's trying to overcompensate for being of the same descent as Samsung. We understand,but Apple has used this to their advantage too long. And to the detriment of the industry. The behind the scenes shenanigans Apple pulls, makes those in the know, avoid Apple's products.

    Apple should be known as the Teflon Company.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @rogerpjr

      That is so fucking ignorant you should be fined for even uttering it.

      Fuck I am tired of the arrogant, ignorant, juvenile drivel in these forums.

      The average mental age of The Register commentards is about 11, AFACT

  15. nuked
    Unhappy

    Seems this judge likes to take her frustration with the stupidity of the law out on legitimate companies trying to protect their business interests, and that of their shareholders. She should be replaced. Period.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Trollface

      She's on her period?

      1. Dr. Mouse
        Paris Hilton

        That's very, very sexist!

  16. JaitcH
    WTF?

    So Samsung wins the ...

    Christmas sales season.

    And with the profits accumulated, they are making hay. And all the models complained of by Apple are in a past catalogue.

    Could it be the Courts are getting tired of all these patent claims and will simply give them short shrift as some judges have done already?

    Perhaps 'cool' evaluations, as awarded in the UK, will keep Apple happy?

  17. Mitoo Bobsworth

    I'm curious -

    How much have the law firms made out of this debacle so far - anyone?

    1. Toothpick
      Unhappy

      Re: I'm curious -

      probably more in a month than the whole of the El Reg commantards make in a year. Sadly

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I'm curious -

        Probably more than the sum the entire El Reg commentard corpus will make in their lifetimes

    2. ZAM

      Re: I'm curious -

      that is the problem with these cases the only ones sure to win are the lawyers . . .

  18. mrfill

    The one and only?

    Is there really only one judge in California?

  19. LPF
    Thumb Up

    Whats funny

    is reading all these posters going nuts becuase the Judge refuses to side with them, She's a judge and your some nerd sitting in your mums basement in his underpants, obviously you know more about this case than her! lol

    1. Corinne

      Re: Whats funny

      Actually LPF many of these posters DO know more about the subject than the judge - they are professionals in the tech industry, wheres she's a legal specialist.

      1. Philip Lewis
        FAIL

        Re: Whats funny

        Being a professional in the tech industry (and I am one as well) does not make you (or I) in any way more knowledgeable on the law than a judge sitting in a Californian court. And court cases are about the legality or otherwise of the behaviour of the parties involved in the litigation.

        There is some possibility that some of the commentards actually know something about technology, but it is very difficult to spot in the barrage of puerile nonsense that is written here. It is also possible that some of them might know more about smartphones than the judge. But the problem with that is, that the commentards apparently think that their knowledge is somehow unique and relevant. It's not. IT generally is an astoundingly trivial and simple subject area populated by an astounding number of simple minded people capable of pushing a set of buttons in the correct sequence with egos far bigger than their intellect can support. This forum is full of them. You, Corinne, demonstrate here that you among that group.

    2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Whats funny

      > your some nerd

      > your

      Hey spotty, how's life? You out of neet-ness yet?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Whats funny

      @LPF - Exactly that...

      @Corinne - hmmm yeah right, sure, some do, the majority seem to have an eq level of a 4 year old. Just start your sentence with Ap...and they flock to the thread with negative comments. But besides that, none of them on this these pages, myself included, have access to the real details in the case. Like yourself with the conclusion that the forman has influenced the others...Sorry but that is just a theory and I'd rather leave it to the courts to decide on the facts opposed to some people on here speculating and mistaking to take their own baseless opinions for facts.

      1. Corinne

        @AC 07:49 Re: Whats funny

        Actually the foreman himself announced to the press the details of how he influenced the rest of the jury, he seemed quite proud of himself for managing that.

        Regarding your comment "Just start your sentence with Ap...and they flock to the thread with negative comments", there's also people like you who flock to the thread with defensive comments whatever the evidence. I came into the subject neutral with NO axe to grind, I'm not an Apple "fan" nor an Android/Samsung fan, but not only the facts of the case as published internationally but also the attitude of some of the commentators has driven me to conclude that Apple is royally taking the piss with their design pATENTS.

  20. Camilla Smythe

    I went to the toilet in the dark..

    And whipped my plonker out and aimed then listened to the splashing noise for guidance. There was the sound of tutting in the dark background and being disturbed I missed and hit the seat. They sniggered.

    Picking up the toilet roll and using touchy feely gestures I noted the previous user had left the plies out of synch so, going for a clean tear, I unwound the first ply and used it to mop up and then proceeded to....

    At this point the bathroom was flooded by arc-lamps and they screamed.

    'We've got patents on that!!!!'

    1. peter 45
      Gimp

      Re: I went to the toilet in the dark..

      "Whipped my plonker out"...posted by Camilla.

      Um. Is there something you would like to tell us?

      We wont judge. Honest.

  21. Rob Crawford

    I'm a bit confused

    The judge says why not just settle.

    Lets see if you where Samsung would you settle for paying out that amount of cash and also accept a ban on sales?

    I know I wouldn't (Oh wait Samsung aren't a US company)

  22. wim
    Joke

    trial by tech

    let both companies build a robot.

    both robots enter ring.

    one robot leaves. The most innovative leaves and thus the case is settled.

    Samsung may have an edge since they are more involved in death tech.

  23. Malcolm Weir Silver badge

    Some extra fun facts from the hearing...

    1. The chance of Apple getting an injunction is falling; the Judge made a point of noting that the iPhone 3 and 3GS are no longer on sale, so there's no need to "protect" them with an injunction.

    2. The judge suggested she was inclined to invalidate one of the patents.

    3. The judge made it clear she agreed that some of the jury's "calculations" for damages were totally bogus.

    4. The judge knows damn well that no matter what, UNLESS they settle, then some or all of the issues will go to appeal, so why should she spend too much time on them?

    Predictions:

    a) no injunctions are needed.

    b) a new trial for damages (only) is more likely than a full retrial.

    c) Judge Koh may try to orchestrate a reduction in damages to something low enough that Samsung will pay up rather than fight an appeal.

    d) Samsung may still fight the appeal because the patents in question are too vague/indefinite/broad/obvious.

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A solution

    Perhaps the US patent office should declare no future patents since EVERYTHING has been invented and patented already.

    Stop all innovation and competition, it's wasting the courts time.

    Stop any new companies coming into any market, they are harming established companies.

    Stop anyone having a free thought since that thought probably belongs to a large tech company or a patent troll..... there we go, fixed it all up.... now stop thinking and go and buy an [ insert officially approved handset for your country ] you worthless consumer.

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