Atos IT workers threaten strike during Olympics over 'living wage' Atos IT workers are threatening to strike over pay in industrial action that could hit the London Olympics. The Public and Commercial Services union said it was balloting members on strike action this week after they voted not to accept "below-inflation pay offers". Over 1,500 members across Atos Healthcare and Atos IT …
Maybe it's time people in the IT industry just accepted they work low skill service industry jobs. If only they'd trained for a job that actually produces something like high-value manufacturing, scientific R&D and the creative industries this country might not be going down the drain..
>Maybe it's time people in the IT industry just accepted they work low skill service industry jobs.
That's what RBS thought when they made 2/3rds of the IT workforce redundant and employed inexperienced, underqualified workers unfamiliar with the technology, practices and history (in a different country), I actually heard a manager once say "we don't need system administrators, just get a book", and another say "take 'creativity' off the job advert, programmers don't need to be creative".
Every bank, shop, engineering company is an IT business, from accounting to ordering, stock control, communications publicity, advertising, IT is absolutely key to [almost] every business.
"Every bank, shop, engineering company is an IT business, from accounting to ordering, stock control, communications publicity, advertising, IT is absolutely key to [almost] every business."
None of those are actually IT jobs though, they just make use of it. These companies also all need somebody on the phones handling complaints, it's still a low skill service job though. It must be hard knowing you'll probably be replaced by a 15 year old Indian kid within the next ten years. Time to retrain perhaps?
That is a fair bit of money, but I'm not sure what point you're actually making. It's not like the ballot is about striking to give him more money. Besides, you have to pay that sort of money to get the best people.
Oh, sorry, that bullshit argument only works for the managers of large companies and bankers...
Does your company conduct staff satisafaction surveys?
Unions are increasingly being presented with the results of such surveys by companies during pay negotiations.
Company X to Union Y: "...with 65% of staff agree our pay is already competitive, and 75% being satisfied with the overall benefits received"
So next time you fill in the staff survey, instead of thinking how it will improve your job, think how it might be used against you!
As for atos(ers).....having "health professionals" masquerading as doctors is pretty low....but about atos-average.
Agreed. When my boss said she wanted a health-report relating the the effects of my disability, I was pretty surprised to find that apparantly Atos can assess that by doing nothing more than a phone consultation. Huge waste of money if you ask me, whilst I was honest, I could equally well have said that my leg was persistently swollen to twice it's normal size and the 'health professional' would never have known.
Atos also used to run payroll at one of my ex-employers. Constant screw-ups.
Generally a pretty shite company, bit worrying to hear that any of the Olympic stuff is reliant on them getting things right. Hell, when I was supposed to go in for a 'face-to-face' consultation they wanted me to drive 50 miles to get to them. That'd be fine if it weren't for the fact 3 days later they phoned back and said "Hey we've just realised we've actually got a consultation centre in your town, 5 minutes drive from the office".
Where I work the %age of completed surveys was related to management bonuses and so managers would pounce on people around survey time to get them to complete it and the year after it became common knowledge less than 10% were completed. It's no longer linked but the rumours that it are won't go away and people still won't do them on principle.
Having worked for a union (for free) in a company that did do staff satisfaction surveys my experience is they were a worthless distraction and management spent more time trying to figure out who said what in the verbatim comments. The standard reply to a large number of dissatisfied staff was "well why are they still here". Any dissent over wages was met with "we benchmark well against other companies". Any comments relating to specific managers were "personal grudges and should be ignored".
It was frankly one of the most soul destroying experiences of my life, having encoraged every last person to fill them in. Worked on the results, held sessions with staff (it was hell trying to have no management sitting in on those sessions, and the first question asked was always "who said that") and come up with a series of suggestions that wouldn't cost much but would help address valid issues, to sit down with a bunch of desk warmers and have it all shot down as just spiteful malicous rumblings from the great unwashed.
I have also seen at first hand how they manipulate the figures, either upgrading "no comment / indifferent" to a positive or excluding them. Anything to bugger with the figures.
So by all means put down you are dissatisfied with your wages but you will only be told your compensation package benchmarks well against competitors, although they will include amounts for the pathetic staff gym, amounts for free parking in a crime ridden industrial estate ad nauseum anything to make your compensation look higher. Plus isn't benchmarking wages effectively price fixing?
So you volunteered for no pay? Unlikely, no one would do what you said you did for free. Or did you get paid but the union got you for free? In which case you sound like a "pilgrim" who sponges off the company but works for the union. If the union wants to do something, it should pay for it itself.
That's a little harsh isn't it? Yes I got no renumeration from the union. I worked in a comissioned environment so I could spare time because the job itself wasn't that difficult to do well, I could hit my max target and spare the time. I did benefit to some degree, from additional training and from helping to develop policy (which I would benefit from). I also went through some consultation periods that didn't result in job losses. I guess I was an idiot for wanting to help people and the company?
I had to doubl check I had the right definition of pilgrim :-) No I am not a pilgrim, I worked in the private sector and still performed my job at the company, plus the company benefitted as well as the union. The days of striking down the pit are over. A good union wants the company to make money so it can ask for better pay. We spent as much time working on improving the company as we did staff issues.
I did benefit in many ways, it was a welcome distraction to day to day work, I got to help coworkers and the company etc. I just feel that dues paid to the union are better spent assisting those who are made redundant or in need of legal assistance in tribunals etc, not padding my salary. Sure the 'windows and orphans' fund isn't as heavily drawn on these days, but those dues help people find new work, keep a roof over their heads and fight dodgy managers. That all seems more important to me than me being able to have some more money each month when I already have a normal wage coming in. I guess it's a self respect thing.
Having worked as a manager in previous roles I had a tainted idea of what a union was actually like, it is not some carry on style all strike the minute somebody is asked to do someone elses job type environment, nor is everyone just their to pull two salaries in. Sure there are people like that in life, but not everyone is like that. It was interesting, at times fun and sure it felt good to help people but money isn't everything in life.
As someone else already pointed out these are part of a multi-million pound contract (£300m?) company that are paid to do tick box 'medical assessments' which affect hundreds of thousands of people by robbing them of benefits. Far worse is that as a result of these McMedicals people are pushed and forced into the increasingly ludicrous jobcentre schemes, workface for example, and these 'people' are bitching about not getting a good enough pay rise? They get less than zero sympathy from me whatsoever and the idea of them sponsoring the paralympics is disgusting. I don't know why LinkOfHyrule got a downvote, perhaps it was someone that works for ATossers or believes all the lies the media like to spread.
You seem to be having trouble distinguishing the folk who have to get a job to pay their mortage and feed their family from the executives who get to set policy.
Hint: one of those two sets of people got to draw up the medical assessment policy. The other set is unhappy at being paid peanuts.
If it were easy for them to change jobs, they wouldn't be considering a strike, would they?
I went out to shoot some shots of the torch passing through the local town, we waited for 90 minutes, the first through were 3 huge trucks by Coke, Samsung and some other mega-corp. They took about 5-10 minutes to crawl up the 400 yards of the high-street. Next up were, two Police bikes, a police car, the bearer and a support coach, they were rushed through at lightning speed I barely got time to rattle off 3 shots before they were all gone!
I think I know whose benefit the torch parade is for!
They should have threatened to strike when the government used ATOS to force the most vulnerable in our society to look for work when (by any reasonable persons definition of sick) they were unable to do so.
I for one don't care if the poor ATOS workers are suffering. They have contributed to much more harm and anxiety for the sick and disabled people who's health they were supposed to be caring for.
They are contracted to run the medicals for the WCA (ESA assessment) and for DLA.
They are widely despised by the disabled community, and have a track re ord that would see other government contractors investigated. Their declaring people fitter than they are is costing at least £60m per year in appeals alone. The human cost is even greater.
A less-fitting sponsor for the Paralympics I could not imagine.
It's worse than that. They used a scoring system based on an American system used by insurers to deny medical insurance to people. The healthcare assessments they use are designed to exclude people from being able to get the help they need.
http://www.whywaitforever.com/dwpatosveterans.html
See the summer report of 2010, Section 8
A bus with 10 passengers on is far less hassle to drive than one that is packed to the rafters. People complain to the drivers about the most stupid of things and he/she has to sit there and be polite and listen while they fumble with their change and moan about the lateness of the bus while making it even later, crowded buses mean fights and rows and the driver is expected to sort these out, people staying on way after the stop they have paid for etc etc etc. They really don't just sit there and drive the buses you know. So yeah, the bosses will be getting huge bonuses so why not give the drivers a few hundred quid extra?
@Andy I drew attention more to the tube drivers who I cannot understand how they can justify being paid more during the olympics. I believe these guys are on nearly £50k/year these days for what is a semi-skilled job.
That's more than the majority of IT people I know. Do you know any devs who get paid a bonus for working their normal hours during a busy period?
Not that I approve or dissapprove of their raise, but I believe the justification was a combination of a longer working day (lines will run later) and holiday blackouts (to help minimise overtime pay).
I could be remembering it incorrectly and to be fair, news coverage in the states is a little shaky on anything foreign (and downright shocking on domestic stuff if you watch fox).
Dan10
Atos has the contract to conduct "Work Capability Assessments" for the DWP. Incapacity is on the way out, instead you have ESA.
These replace being examined by a doctor
A "Healthcare professional" (might be a doctor, more likely to be a midwife or physio)
These are also used for DLA. DLA is not an "out of work" benefit. Instead it is often paid to workers for things liek adapting cars to help them get to work. The fraud rate for DLA is 0.5%. The Government's stated aim is to reduce it by 20%
If you have some math sills you might notice that the Government's intention is to penalise people who are genuinely seeking help.
The fraun percentage for Incapacity Benefit was lower than DLA. Like many benefits, the fraud rate was much less that the amount not claimed by those entitled to it
The WCA is a check box exercise unrelated to your illness. If you have MS, can climb two stairs but need a rest aftwerwards, tough luck, that's zero points
On crutches and can only walk 50m before you need to stop?
Tough luck, the examiner can "imagine" a wheelchair, and figure that if you had that you could wheel yourself 1000 miles, so zero points
I spoke to a bod who works for the Council. IOf anyone gets more than 0 points in a WCA it is a talking point for the CAB people.
WIth representation and turning up in person, appeals can have a 80% success rate. The Tribunal syste is overloaded.
This process has been criticised in a report put to the Government. The DWP show no signs of consulting evidence from the doctors who treat the patients. Instead they seem to say "Well, the Health professional said it so it must be true" and this has been reported by Lord Harrington as an abrogation of responsibility
The old points system used to be more fleible, so it could more fairly access the capabilities of the claimant. This system has have the number of available points, and the form initially filled in by the claimant actually misses some of the opportunities they have to qualify.
The BMA have called for this to be scrapped
Atos are a subsidiary of Unum. A Private Health Insurance firm banned for sharp practie from operating in some US states
I hope the Atos workers go on strike and pull the plug from this disgraceful system
"The fraud rate for DLA is 0.5%"
I find that rather hard to believe. There are whole _towns_ filled with people falsely claiming DLA!
Seriously, some of my family members on my wife's side are like that, so I've been around those circles and seen for myself. It's truely outrageous what some people get away with - and they do it because they know how to game the system.
One of them has never worked a day in her life, claiming work is too distressing because she was bullied as a child! (which she wasn't BTW, not that it really matters)
There are whole towns claiming falsely? Where? Don't spout out such statements without anything to back it up. Why don't you report them and your family members? I would dearly love to know how anyone can game a system where people with terminal illnesses are found fit to work and then die within weeks.
Personally I have mental health issues that mean I practically lived in my bedroom and even though I live with parents I would see them perhaps 5 - 10 minutes a day on a "good" day. I was waiting close to THREE years for help after asking for it and when I finally got it and had appointments with psychiatrists, CPNs and various groups I was sent for a medical and given 0 points. The person doing the medical wasn't a psychiatrist, she wasn't even a doctor, she was a nurse. She blatantly lied on the forms and wrote down that I'd never sought *any* help despite a veritable mountain of evidence to the contrary. It took a year to get to appeal and I came out with *31* points.
The point in all this? If I, and others like me, can't pass a medical with these assholes and you know of people that are gaming the system then report them! Family or not they are a huge part of the problem. I struggled and thought plenty of times about suicide because it felt like an endless hassle when I was doing everything I was able to at the time. Others have unfortunately gone through with it yet anyone gaming the system, as you put it, doesn't care because there is nothing wrong with them.
AC because while I don't mind sharing this I do mind trolling assholes and don't want this coming back to me.
That anon coward at 12.14 is spot on. As for you, call the benefit snitch line if you think she is on the make. No point telling us, do I look like the scroungers hotline!
You could ask your GP about it too next time you go in for a fondle. Doctors and consultants are known to be very pissed off with a certain company with a masturbatory name too - they undo a lot the work the consultants do in getting their patients better with all the worry and stress they cause - you have to rememberer, the top consultants have big-ass egos, they tend to get pissy when their patients get ill cos of idiots like this messing with their work! it really gets on their tits! They'd phrase it differently in the main, I'm using laymans terms here!
"Why don't you report them and your family members?"
Actually, I did. Guess what happened? Nothing.
You're own situation is regrettable, but has no bearing on those people I am describing - those people who *know* how to game the system, whereas it sounds like you are more honest than that.
I know it may be hard for you to believe given your own experiences, but bejesus, it does happen :(
I believe there are towns that are devastated when their heavy industries closed down and there is fuck all hope for anyone - I refuse to believe EVERYONE in the whole town is a crook though. The DWP aint THAT thick. If it were true the Job Centre wouldn't even be staffed to give anyone any benefits as the workers would be at home on the dole flicking themselves off to Jermeny Kyle, wouldn't they!
Perhaps a little dramatic there :-) There is some hope. Having been born in the grim north amongst all the closed pits and steel works there was some hope, a train ticket to somewhere else with jobs. Sad, especially when returning home to see the high street full of charity shops and pound shops, even maccies moved and you know you are in trouble when Brighthouse arrives.
It is grim growing up knowing the only jobs are in the dole office and it isn't the easiest thing to leave family behind and jump on a bus or train, but it beats sitting around waiting for work that never arrives.
It was generations ago that these towns were devastated, and it's truely sad that people are brought up there today being told my their parents to game the system. Seriously. My wife (who is from said town) got into university but her own mother hid her acceptance letters and told her to get pregnant so the council would give her a nice house with nice curtains.
I have a cousin on my wife's side who got up the spout at 16 and prompty got her own council flat. But she didn't want a flat, she wanted a house. So her father actually lit a fire in the flat, then complained to the council that the area wasn't safe for her, so she could be moved somewhere nicer!
That same bloke also has a council house, and last year he wanted a new kitchen, so he smashed his old one up and phoned the council - he had a new kitchen within a few weeks.
You couldn't make this stuff up! And there are plenty more similar tales.
OK, so maybe it's not the *whole* town, but it's certainly great swathes of it. Regarding the job centre, no, you're wrong - all they have to do is go in every now and them and pretend to look for jobs, and come up with dubious reasons why they can't take any jobs that are found for them.
Thumbs up for the Jeremey Kyle comment ;)
That culture does exist unfortunately. I remember sitting down to lunch with a colleague and talking about rent. I was paying about 600 a month for a 3 bed semi in a reasonable area, he was paying 115 a month for a council flat (3 bed also). I remember him looking at me like I was an idiot for paying 600 and him saying well why don't you just get a council flat. It was all I could do not to stand on the table and shout because I'm not a thieving little shit. Social housing should be there for those that really need it. Once you earn more you should pay up to market rate depending on how much you earn. There shouldn't be any stigma about using social resources when you need them, there bloody well should when you use them when you don't need them.
Okay I am starting to come round a bit now. I have already had a few discussions with a northern mate of mine and have already discovered we have some major "cultural differences" even though I grew up on a rough estate myself down south - but I do live in Surrey now and its clearly a different country to Yorkshire let alone Scotland! I think also I was bit moodier than normal today due to ATOS being the main topic which I guess is understandable!
Glad you like the Kyle comment, I would have used the original line from the League of Gentlemen but its about 12 years out of date to be saying "flicking myself off to Trisha" lol
Firstly, that was a crap situation to find yourself in, that is exactly the time you should be being supported.
The current method obviously doesn't work, the problem was neither did the old system. Unfortunately there isn't a test that gives a 100% accurate yes/no answer to if you are able to work. People know this, unfortunately so do some immoral lazy gits who game the system. Not everyone on DLA is gaming the system, most aren't, but some are.
I have no issues beliving that genuine claims are being turned down, but I also have no issue in believing other folks are swinging the lead. The people to be pissed at are the scum who are gaming the system. If people could be trusted then your word would be all that was needed. However, some winnets on the arse of society think it is ok to lie and steal benefits meant to support people who genuinely cannot work and paid for by taxes paid by those of us that do. I fully support the idea of social insurance, that reality is that a small minority take the piss, but that still has an impact. All that said, any changes should not put at risk those that need help, nor should cutting corners.
As for the Burnley comments, theres a few other places could be added to that list. Whilst we aren't talking everyone, but there are places where it seems socially accpetable, you'll note that in these places going to Asda \ Bargain Madness \ Brighthouse in your jammies is also accpetable.
Disability Living Allowance is not Employment Support Allowance (formerly incapacity benefit)
DLA is not a means tested benefit and is to support people who have disabilities....attached to DLA is Mobility Allowance @ £56/Wk, often used to RENT a car for travel....No DLA, no MA. those with DLA can also work up to an income limit.
Many people on high incomes claim DLA: legally.
And
As the DWP are a fairly unsympathetic bunch, it's hardl;y likely to be falso
And DLA is nothing to do with being in or out of work. It is to do with trying to make life a bit more normal for those with disabilities, like mobility allowance for squaddies who have had their legs blown off
Some jobs aren't worth that much. A kitchen washer upper in Newcastle is probably valued at less than minimum wage, whilst one in The Savoy probably would get more than the minimum wage. It all depends on the demand for that job. That's because a wage is a mixture of that at which a company think it's worth and the level that stops the worker working elsewhere. Interfering with that via a state imposed mechanism throws the market into a tissy and so you you end up with people being unemployed because the company doesn't think a job is worth the minimum wage.
"I can't comment on the London wage as I have no idea of the costs of living there"
Well take almost everything you can think of, and double the cost (depending on where it is you live). OK so basic supermarket stuff won't be much different, but big costs like housing and transport are massively inflated in London compared to just about all the rest of the country, as is stuff like sandwiches from a decent sandwich shop or beers in the pub.
So pretty pointless to comment on something you admit to knowing nothing about.....
Getting on for 4 years ago, and I seem to recall at the time they sent a email round to staff asking them to volunteer to work on the olympic games contract this year (ie take unpaid time off to go and support the systems in london)... left pdq for similar atossery reasons
AC for obvious reasons
Atos are providing a tiny bit of IT infrastructure for the Olympics but you'd not guess that from their Olympic-logo splattered literature. Honestly, they'd have you believe they are running the entire tournament and Seb Coe is just a bit-part player.
I have worked with them in the past and they are a bunch of incompetent idiots and I hope this strike cripples them and they dissolve into the ether.
ATOS provide all the IT infrastructure for the GAMES part of the olympics. The applications used, what the press see , even the networks.
If you are going to rant about something know at least a bit of what you are talking about.
They are not olympics sponsors as so many people have got wrong earlier in the thread, they are Olympic partners contracted as far back as Athens till Rio 2016.
I work for ATOS, not on the Olympics or Health Assessment (having been tupe'd from another company, who were perfectly good) and so far ATOS have met all my expectations...
..Fascist, employee hating, management topheavy, clueless twats of the first order who do little but reduce resources, axe jobs, outsource, bully and threaten to get their own way. Let me tell you, if you're a customer of theirs then you are being ripped off constantly and continually whilst being soft-soaped into complacency.
My own job is now under threat from their short-sightedness and should they go ahead with the idiotic and draconic plans they are touting in my corner of the world, I can assure you I will be back here to spill the beans on exactly how they like to treat their employees, customers and business partners.
In the meantime, I must remain AC for obvious reasons.
If they have a pay dispute then perhaps they could lodge a appeal and wait a year for that to happen and in the meantime be paid nothing, thats how it works, isn't it? I mean if it's good enough for MS sufferers and cancer sufferes etc etc then surely it must be good enough for the staff as well. Anything else would be a double standard.
IT workers are actually in an excellent position to strike. They are in the fairly unique position of being able literally to hold their employers to ransom, anytime they please (or anytime they don't please), just by withdrawing their labour. Ask anyone who banks with the NatWest what can happen if computers aren't doing what they are supposed to do.
Even sacking the whole of their IT staff won't fix things straight away -- it will take a while to train a bunch of n00bs to work with the inevitable opaque and proprietary systems.
The time could be approaching for some new Tolpuddle Martyrs to have their day .....
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