back to article Microsoft's uncloaks Phone 8 developer preview

Microsoft held its developer preview of the Windows Phone 8 operating system on Wednesday, and revealed that it is shifting the platform to share core kernel features with Windows 8 for better integration. At the rollout event in San Francisco, corporate vice president of the Windows Phone program Joe Belfiore said that …

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  1. Linbox
    WTF?

    "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

    If that is true, then this is an epic fail.

    1. Phoenix50
      Stop

      Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

      You mean just like the many Android phones out there which their manufacturers have announced wont be getting ICS?

      Or 1st Gen iPad owners who wont get IOS 6?

      You mean like them?

      1. Spearchucker Jones
        Trollface

        Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8" @Phoenix50

        Careful - the Android apologists are about to downvote us all ;-)

        1. Phoenix50
          Thumb Down

          Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8" @Phoenix50

          TBH I'm on tenterhooks awaiting the arrival of Bob Vistakin.

          1. Shonko Kid
            Coffee/keyboard

            Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8" @Phoenix50

            Is that THE Bob "Zune" Vistakin? He's famous round these parts!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

        iPad owners have have had one major OS upgrade and countless smaller improvements. Hardly comparable.

        1. h4rm0ny

          Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

          "iPad owners have have had one major OS upgrade and countless smaller improvements. Hardly comparable."

          Is there some law that any product, no matter how disimilar, must be compared to the iPad? It's a phone. I have a Lumia 710. The people who don't have a WP7 device seem to be getting more worked up about its inability to upgrade than those who have one. It's not suddenly going to stop working or no longer be able to do the things I bought it for. It's still a very nice phone.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

            How can anyone possibly vote your comment down. You say you have a Lumia 710 and you don't mind not being able to upgrade, what is there to disagree in with that?

            1. h4rm0ny

              Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

              "How can anyone possibly vote your comment down. You say you have a Lumia 710 and you don't mind not being able to upgrade, what is there to disagree in with that?"

              I have no idea. You get comments here expressing great joy just because something freezes during a demo. People don't seem to realize that the better MS's products are, the more it forces Apple, Linux and all the hardware manufacturers to up their game. It's some sort of bonkers tribalism. Further up the thread I was told I was "not the brightest spark" because I was happy with my phone. Hey, it does what I need and it cost less than £200 quid. I must have been an idiot to buy it because the moment Windows Phone 8 comes out it will turn into a pumpkin. Apparently.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

                @H4rm0ny:

                It's basically because lots of people in IT make their choice of OS (usually), they invest a lot of time in learning the OS, then rather than becoming familiar with other OSes, or other manufacturers systems they slag them off. I work in backup and recovery and the amount of tribalism for the backup package of choice and resistance to change for packages which are demonstrably better is incredible. Throw in a touch of being smug about having learned an arcane command line and defending that, rather than just accepting that sometimes it's just as valid to carry out tasks on the GUI and you've got people who would resist learning something new, in order to somehow defend their legacy knowledge.

                Rather sad really, but it does mean that us multi OS, multi vendor package skilled people have better job prospects.

            2. Rob Beard
              Happy

              Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

              I bought a Lumia 710 on PAYG for my daughter... it was cheap, it does the job and she likes it. Heck, it's even growing on me too (and I'm a die hard Fandroid).

              I gather though that the the bright sparks over at XDA Developers are plugging away at getting Android running on the Lumia phones, not sure if they'll manage it or not (maybe they will?) but not having an upgrade to WP8 isn't the end of the world for my daughter. I dare say it'll last her a couple of years and then she might want something a bit newer with more bells and whistles, and eventually she'll get to the age where she'll be able to afford to buy whatever phone she wants.

              Rob

          2. squilookle
            Meh

            Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

            @h4rm0ny

            "The people who don't have a WP7 device seem to be getting more worked up about its inability to upgrade than those who have one. It's not suddenly going to stop working or no longer be able to do the things I bought it for. It's still a very nice phone."

            I think you have the most sensible post here. The lack of upgrade is not that big of a deal to anyone but those who feel they must constantly have the latest software. Everyone else, I'm sure, will continue quietly using their phones to the end of their contracts, and then will upgrade when they get a new phone.

            I don't blame anyone who decides they don't want to invest in WP7 now, I wouldn't myself, but I don't think it warrants any vitriol.

        2. the-it-slayer
          Gimp

          Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

          Two major upgrades. The first iPad started it's life on iOS 3 =).

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

        No not really like that at all.

        You won't be able to run Windows 8 apps on a Windows Phone 7.5. The application format is now Windows8RT

        Lumia owners just got right royally fucked over, as everyone here has been telling them for months, they fact that Microsoft were being totally silent on the upgrade path, meant there was none.

        Really, how many times do these people need to get fucked over before they get the message?

        1. JDX Gold badge

          Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

          My old Nokia has been running for about 5 years on the same OS it had when I bought it. It runs just as well as it ever did. The same will be true for WP7 phones... upgrading to a new OS is just not a huge deal for typical users who will simply get a free upgrade in a year's time.

      4. Paul Shirley
        Coat

        Re: wont be getting ICS?

        Phoenix50:"like the many Android phones out there which their manufacturers have announced wont be getting ICS?"

        Sony told me I couldn't have ICS.

        I installed it anyway.

        HTC told me my G1 wouldn't be getting Gingerbread.

        I installed it anyway.

        Its the Android way :)

      5. Jess

        @which their manufacturers have announced wont be getting ICS?

        Not really.

        The answer is in your question. Manufacturers. The fail is the manufacturers not Android.

        If Nokia wanted to stop their Lumia range becoming more obsolete than my e72, they can't. Another nail I guess.

      6. the-it-slayer
        Facepalm

        Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

        Shame you don't get that there's a technical reason why the original iPad won't get iOS6. But hey, should Apple of really bothered giving it two software updates in its lifetime?

        Rest my case. =)

      7. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

        What phones would that be then?

        All the big boys (HTC, Samsung, Sony, LG, Motorola), have either updated all their phones from 2011/2012 to ICS, or the upgrade is still ontrack for pretty much now.

        I know for a fact Sony have already done all their 2011 phones (and even the Xperia Play, which they said won't be getting it, has not got one listed again, presumably it's your choice to update or not), HTC's list is equally impressive, all their 2011 phones, and even some high end handsets from late 2010.

        Sounds like internet FUD. Trust me, watch ICS explode on the Google pie-chart next month, and the month after.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

      I think we just need to wait and see what will become available, but we cant be foolish to think that we will get all the good news, firstly we cant pull NFC and multicore hardware out of our arses and make it magically work in our device, physically differences will limit what we could run on WP7.x hardware.

      MS is going to back port many of the features to the devices but you can only have features that your hardware will support, so I don't think that's so bad, I also don't think that not having the unified core (presuming we're not since that's not confirmed or denied) will make a huge difference either.

      Being able to run Native code would be a BIG bonus as would removing some of the ridicules amount of security built in to the OS, So far the OS has only been cracked when a 3rd part OEM screwed up, that's some achievement but its bloody annoying if you like to tinker with it.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

      Is there any spac

      for the mandato

      truncated text jo

      or has it been don

      to death?

    4. Mike Judge
      FAIL

      Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

      Not only that, it's even funnier, as they won't be able to run the new apps either. The dire app store will stay dire, as developers move onto this years new burning platform.

      Nice one Microsoft, what pitifully small userbase you have, you just royally screwed them over.

      1. Spearchucker Jones

        Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

        The store is hardly dire. Keep seeing a lot of new apps being added to the app store (have to say I hardly ever feel compelled to try them out - mostly because I don't care for ESPN, Grumpy Doves or the like on my phone).

        I also write apps for WP7, and more recently for W8. When the dev tools come out for WP8 I'll move to that. Much like I moved from .NET 1.0 to 4.5.

        I don't feel screwed over (I have a Lumia 800). I'd feel well screwed over if I bought a new Android handset today that didn't have ICS on it...

    5. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

      >"Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8" If that is true, then this is an epic fail.

      Ho hum... the biggest upgrades, besides this Win8RT kernal morph, seemed to be applicable only to new hardware anyway- i.e SD card support and screen res options.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

      The least Nokia could do would be to remove Lumia from the 2 year contract market until they have the WP8 version. Well, not quite the least guess a warning sticker on the phone would do if product recall would mess up contractual obligations.

      Letting Microsoft totally screw Nokias smartphone relunch isn't a great advert for Elops negotiating skills.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

        People who willing bought WP7 Lumia phones on contracts weren't the brightest sparks in the first place.

        When the Lumia 800/900 came out, I said that the phones will become obsolete in less than a year.

        But no... telling the truth about the situation means you're hating on Microsoft, or you're an Apple/Android fanboy.

    7. tirk
      Devil

      Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

      Anyone who invests in release 1 of any Microsoft software is going to get their fingers burnt in several ways - this is just another of the inevitable "fails" of an MS first go at something new.

      A better question is, was WP7.5 release 2, or is this?

    8. JDX Gold badge

      Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

      You can't make a big leap forward and be 100% backwards compatible, they're mutually exclusive.

      Also, there are so few WP7 users that it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

      I think it sounds rather splendid - SD support is a massive thing to techies and support for DirectX sounds awesome.

    9. smokeyjoe87
      Pint

      Re: "Phone 7 users won't be able to upgrade to Windows 8"

      Not really.

      Think about it, phone 8 uses hardware that is not in use in older phones, the 7.8 update is fine for current phone users (like me)

      I don't mind that my current phone will not be able to upgrade because it is perfectly reasonable to say that old outdated devices can't run newer software due to hardware restrictions.

      If MS released phone 8 to current devices there would be all manner of things not working, not to mention people buying one phone only to find that it won't do certain things they thought it would because they got an old handset creating a lot of negativity for them.

      All they want to do is preserve the quality of what they are selling.

  2. Anomynous Coward

    Hmm...

    All good things that he's saying but

    a) They might just be too late to catch up on this one even if they get it all right

    b) They won't have got it all right

    Still, it's going to be interesting.

  3. Sil
    Thumb Down

    Not upgradeable is not ok

    Really disappointed that a phone that will be about 1 year old when WP8 launchs will not be upgradable.Not asking for NFC to work obviously but there are no reasons for the other updates not to work.

    1. MIc
      Thumb Down

      Re: Not upgradeable is not ok

      "but there are no reasons for the other updates not to work." sounds like you have a lot of experience managing the costs of legacy for an OS. Given that there are no reasons at all.

      Is it possible you are saying something that just makes you feel good?... Nah you're just hyper smart.

      1. Sil

        Re: Not upgradeable is not ok

        It's not a legacy OS it's a brand new platform that Microsoft took many years to develop and a complete departure from wm6.

        Therefore I expected a longer lifetime. In any case not supporting wp7 hardware is a commercial decision that I doubt will be popular with corporate customers and even less with consumers. I for one will stop recommending wp7 phones and recommend instead to wait for wp8 phones or look elsewhere.

        Windows 8 wouldn't stand a chance if it didn't work on windows 7 compatible PCs. As it is it may still be a major commercial failure but that's another debate.

    2. Giles Jones Gold badge

      Re: Not upgradeable is not ok

      Maybe it is part of their plan to increase the userbase. Have WP7 owners hand their phones to someone else and then buy a WP8 phone.

      Except many may just think "sod it".

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not upgradeable is not ok

        Microsoft also assumed the Nokia loyalists will buy Lumia phones due to loyalty to the Nokia brand.

        As it turned out, Nokia's market share kept shrinking and shrinking.

        The truth is few people want a Windows phone. It doesn't matter which OEM's device you run the OS on. Please get the memo already.

    3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Not upgradeable is not ok

      I suspect this will be down to the kernel not being backported to whichever ARMs run Windows Phone 7. Existing manufacturers aren't going to pay for something that won't sell more phones and you can bet quite a lot that Intel has contributed to the kernel which will mean restricting options even more. Expect Windows 8 phones to be even more identikit than Windows 7 ones. Be interesting to see how long anyone thinks it's worth trying to compete with Nokia - that might be Microsoft's long game.

      Any comparison's with Android's upgrade strategy are flawed. While the problems with more recent versions (Gingerbread, Honeycomb, ICS) are largely down to the vendors and networks, they're not all that great and the number of DIY kits that allow you to upgrade yourself. Sure, that's very poor customer service driven partly by the desire to sell newer toys but also by the inability to manage the code base. Earlier changes included more significant work on hardware support so upgrades from 1.x based hardware beyond 2.x weren't really possible,

    4. Ilgaz

      They even abuse NFC as an excuse

      First of all, nfc isn't some Sci-fi tech everyone is dying for. My $200 Huawei has it, my HTC high end doesn't.

      Difference between them OS (and app) wise is zero. I just don't see apps strictly needing nfc on my HTC . That is all.

      There isn't an os in IT history that needs multiple cpu/ core to function. Obviously, high end games or apps would be a disaster speed wise but just like Android, you can hide them from low end devices.

    5. JDX Gold badge

      Re: Not upgradeable is not ok

      Why does it NEED to be upgradable?

  4. Phoenix50
    Thumb Up

    My impressions:

    Disappointing that 7.5 users are being a tad shafted, but whe you think about all the manufacturers out there who have announced "No Ice Cream Sandwich" for their devices I guess this happens sometimes - and I sort of understand why they need to do this, in order to beak away from the old code base.

    However, on the plus-side, NFC support (SIM card based which is very interesting), support for removable storage, a far more customisable start screen and better hardware, screen and multi-core support (64!) brings them into line with Apple and Google, as well as now supporting C++ and C should placate developers.

    100,000 apps in the marketplace is brilliant too - peantus compared to the other 2 systems, but they achieved it in less time.

    Finally, I'm glad to see a more intergrated eco-system starting to come together - Windows 8, Phone 8, and later (I expect) XBox will offer the most unified experience of any of the big players - not even Apple can hold that title.

    All in all, very good.

    Oh and you should probably note, I am a Microsoft supporter, I always have been and always will be. They're not perfect but I think they're great, so just fucking deal with it - people like different things.

    1. fishman

      Apps

      While WP7 apps are supposed to run on WP8, apps written to the new WP8/W8 are not compatable with WP7. So there is a question in terms of how long will developers support the WP7 apps?

      1. Phoenix50

        Re: Apps

        That's a good question - MS have said they're going to re-complie all apps in the Marketplace so they're WP8 ready - so from that point of view it's a boon for devs, but the other way round? I wouldn't count on it.

        The biggest problem they've got is that the old Windows Embedded CE core just wasn't up to the job anymore - not with what's coming out of Google and Apple these days. So the switch to the NT Kernel simply HAD to happen - I can't see any other option for them?

        It's a real shame they've had to abandon 7.5 owners like this - I just hope it doesn't hurt them in the short term.

        1. Shonko Kid
          FAIL

          "old Windows Embedded CE core just wasn't up to the job anymore"

          It was never up to the job, shame it's taken them well over a decade to realize it.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          The developer dilemma

          So, does the WP developer choose to build a WP7 app, a WP8 app, or both?

          Likely once WP8 is out, most will ditch the WP7 option so Lumia 900 users who bought outright or bought into a contract this year will be left in the cold, likely with a year or so seeing the WP marketplace pass them by.

          Windows kernel 8 should be capable on WP7 hardware, after all over 10 years ago XP started out running on weaker x86 systems. Fail for Nokia in not insisting on updates as part of their MS deal.

          Meanwhile, who is going to buy into a Nokia phone at all until WP8 is out, unless its pretty much given away. Going to be a long four months or so for Nokia.

          As a developer, I'm positive on WP8 but have to say its a screwed up strategy.

      2. Richard Plinston

        Re: WP7 Apps on WP8

        > While WP7 apps are supposed to run on WP8,

        WP7 apps work in a fixed 800x480 screen size (or 480x320). So what will happen on a 1280x768 WP8, or 1920x1080 Surface ?

        Will it just use 800x480 or be scaled or simply have the elements repositioned ?

        100,000 apps may have to be rewritten.

      3. JimmyPage Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: Apps

        Given the number of apps for WP7, they could probably support them indefinitely.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Windows

    VPN?

    Device encryption and VPN were critical features for business missing in 7 and 7.5. The former gets a mention, but what about VPN support? They surely must have that now, especially if they're using a unified codebase?

    1. Phoenix50

      Re: VPN?

      I certainly hope so - it's coming with the NT TCP stack built-in to it, along with IP v6 support - they must logically be able to support it - but I agree I'd have liked more details about potential VPN support.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: VPN?

        Well, if its Windows NT's TCP/IP stack, one would expect that at the very least, PPTP should be in there.

        Plus, I think IPSec is a mandatory component of IPv6: http://ipv6.com/articles/security/IPsec.htm

        So if they ship with IPv6 support, they should by rights, support IPSec VPNs.

    2. Ilgaz

      Win phone 9?

      Don't be surprised if it needs windows 9 and obviously, win 8 handsets won't be upgraded.

      This isn't the Microsoft we all know and hate/ respect for backwards compatibility. This is a small gang who puts a gigantic company to the bet and leader is ballmer. Microsoft we know would shave off features and make sure last major version owners get the upgrade.

      Stay away until ballmer gets the boot.

  6. This post has been deleted by its author

  7. Shonko Kid
    FAIL

    The race is on!

    Place your bets folks, which handset will Nokia stop supporting first;

    In the UpVote corner, we have the camera phone to end all camera phones, the OS may have a few miles on the clock, but there's still life in it yet... PureView 808!!

    Aaaand in the DownVote corner, we have the new flagship on the block, with clean, crisp lines, and the freshest Look and Feel around, It's the tough sell from Washington State... Lumia 900!!

    1. David Webb

      Re: The race is on!

      Actually, sod Nokia, I'm stopping supporting *them*. I have a Lumia 800 which was only released in November '11, then there is the Lumia 900 which is newer, if you're on contract you have at least a year to go before you can upgrade. It's a kick in the teeth that the 8/900's wont be getting WP8 but will get a theme to make it look like WP8 so sod Nokia, they have lost my custom forever due to their insistence on bringing out devices then drop support after only a few months.

      Oh well, maybe I can get a few quid for it on Ebay.

      1. Tom 35

        Re: The race is on!

        If anyone bought one in Canada they have a three year contract.

        Not that I've seen one in the wild, but there must be some suckers out there.

        1. Halooch
          Happy

          Re: The race is on!

          So I am both a MS and Nokia fan, I have a WP7 phone. But I agree with this comment, if you have just signed a 2 or even 3 year contract, you have been shafted.

          That said given I was an early adopter my contract is up in 3 months, just in time for the new software and hardware :)

  8. Jeebus

    Win 8 Phone Preview.

    Not a single f@ck was given this day.

    Or any other day.

    1. Phoenix50

      Re: Win 8 Phone Preview.

      I gave considerable f@cks about it today, thanks.

      I don't however, give two f@cks about your pointless contributions to this topic.

      Here's another one for you - f@ck off.

      1. David Webb

        Re: Win 8 Phone Preview.

        Wow, both your auto-correct features are a bit screwed, the word you're looking for is fcuk.. wait...

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    WOW, 720p

  10. Jason Hindle

    On upgrades: Well I have to give it to Apple

    My 3GS went through several OS upgrade without fuss. As the man once said (ok, he said it many times), everything just worked. Even iOS6 is slated to work on the 3GS.

    Will the same be true of my swish, new Galaxy S3 when the next major revision of Android is released? Somehow, I suspect not (so thank goodness ICS is good for a year or two). Samsung have no incentive to make it easy. I suspect the same is true of Microsoft's partners.

    1. PaulR79

      Re: On upgrades: Well I have to give it to Apple

      The Galaxy S3 will most certainly get the next version of Android. To think otherwise is just looking for reasons to bash Android and Samsung. Yes, Apple may do better with updating their products but it isn't like they have a large product line to support. Most Android manufacturers are now supporting devices for 18 months which is a step up from what it used to be but if they don't you can usually fall back to the community produced ROMs. It isn't an ideal option but it's still an option you won't get with Apple or MS.

      1. Armando 123

        Re: On upgrades: Well I have to give it to Apple

        "Yes, Apple may do better with updating their products but it isn't like they have a large product line to support."

        Which, from the business side, makes one heck of a lot of sense.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: On upgrades: Well I have to give it to Apple

          You may be getting a version of IOS that says 6, but it defers significantly from that that will be on the Iphone 4S. Just cause the numbers the same, doesn't mean what's underneath is that similar at all. (relatively speaking)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: On upgrades: Well I have to give it to Apple

      Nice for iPhone 3GS, not so good for 3G.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    excellent for devs....

    three completely different operating systems/platforms for devs to work on in three years.

    Thats impressive even for microsoft.

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: excellent for devs....

      It's three more than their desktop division have managed in the same timeframe. (Windows 6.2, indeed!)

      1. PaulR79

        Re: excellent for devs....

        I'm guessing you don't know that this is to prevent programs breaking that rely on OS version numbers. I don't understand it fully but it's something along the lines of programs only working on version 6.x and if they released Windows 7 as version 7.x it would break a lot of them for no good reason.

  12. PaulR79
    WTF?

    No WinPho 8 on existing hardware? Thanks for that.

    I don't know where to begin. Nokia and MS made a big deal out of getting the Lumia line out there after other manufacturers struggled to make a dent in the market and as a 'thank you' for buying into the Windows Phone market MS now says existing customers won't be getting the new version. Nice way to build your customer base MS!

    Isn't this like saying they knew WinPho7 wasn't good enough but they wanted something in the market that wasn't Windows Mobile until they could decide on a better strategy? Regardless, what's to say next year they won't do the same with Windows Phone 9? They can offer all the promises they want but the chances are, at least in the US, that most who did buy into it will be stuck using a dead end OS and at upgrade time (or before!) will be going elsewhere. You can say what you like about Android but almost any mid-range handset released in the last few months will get the next update. Can you say the same about Nokia's? No. In fact all current Windows Phone handsets are now boned the same way Symbian was with the Nokia announcement.

    This next bit I'm talking about something I don't know so this is questionable and open to correction. Doesn't having the same kernel on a phone and your main OS make it easier for malware and viruses to spread to / via phones? That was the first thing I thought when I saw they'll be using the same kernel. If so doesn't that just scream of more bad decisions? As stated, I'm clueless about this so open to correction.

    Strange to think Nokia killed Symbian and other projects to concentrate on Windows Phone 7 handsets for MS and now MS have effectively killed Windows Phone 7 handsets and all of Nokia's current lineup when it seemed to be gaining traction. No wonder MS were so quiet over updating to 8 on current handsets, they've likely been dreading this information coming out.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No WinPho 8 on existing hardware? Thanks for that.

      Mostly agree.

      Malware virus thing is a red herring though as far as I understand the technical aspects of W8 kernel etc. I'm sure we'll see lots of FUD spreading on the topic though.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No WinPho 8 on existing hardware? Thanks for that.

      Golden rules about Microsoft's dissemination of information:

      When Microsoft is very quiet about something, that means that the answer is negative but it doesn't want the people to know.

      When Microsoft is very noisy/upbeat about something, that thing is probably hyped out of proportion.

      1. Davidoff

        Re: No WinPho 8 on existing hardware? Thanks for that.

        Yes, So it's exactly the same as Apple.

  13. toadwarrior

    So they're going to support C but yet they won't improve their support for newer versions of C because C++ is where it's at? That doesn't make sense.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why bother ?

    Really ? The Windows phone I have for work is just a phone. Not one of the apps I would have wanted, which is available for iOS and Android is available for WP7. It can't even send a contact by bluetooth FFS. (Apparently this "may" come with Apollo, according to wpforums).

    I got the wife a little HTC Wildfire S for Xmas, and it's an amazing piece of kit, thanks to the apps you can get.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Why bother ?

      I can't send a contact by bluetooth on an iPhone.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Why bother ?

      "Not one of the apps I would have wanted, which is available for iOS and Android is available for WP7."

      Just curious; which are you missing out on ?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why bother ?

        I don't know about him, but here are some of mine:

        AdAway, Titanium Backup, Angry Birds space, HD Widgets or BeWeather, a good dropbox or box client that can sync my photos automatically (skydrive doesn't cut it, too cumbersome to work with linux), google plus, fring or nimbuzz, a good voip app, a decent gmail client, etc...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @jbernardo

          "AdAway, Titanium Backup, Angry Birds space".

          Check. Ad removal is non-existent. Being a wp7 user it also struck me as odd but backups... non-existent. Angry Birds Space; yups... As in nope, but "yups; you're right there".

          "HD Widgets or BeWeather"

          This particular app. isn't available to my knowledge, but in all fairness there are plenty of very good alternatives. My personal favourite being WeatherMaster (which GPS location weather works quite well IMO).

          "a good dropbox or box client that can sync my photos automatically (skydrive doesn't cut it, too cumbersome to work with linux)"

          Cumbersome? You do realize that you can access SkyDrive from within Linux using any decent WebDAV client? You should easily be able to access this using KDE or Gnome filemanagers.

          "Google plus, fring or nimbuzz"

          Both aren't supported, correct. However, when it comes to IM and such there is the alternative to utilize Live's messenger or Facebooks chat features. Not the same, you're right there, but I figured I'd mention it nonetheless.

          "VoIP app"

          There is Skype but... With the limitation that it cannot receive incoming calls as if they were normal calls (app doesn't continue to run in the background).

          "Decent gmail client"

          GMail / Google Mail is natively supported by the OS.

          However; not being familiar with gmail myself keep in mind that I have no idea if you refer to specific features which could very well be supported in a native gmail client and not in the default WP7 mailclients. In all honesty; wp7 mail clients have some pro's (IMO) but also con's (for example; you can't easily use your gmail account and tell it to use "mydomain.com" as sender because it will force you to use your gmail alias; even though "mydomain.com" can also be mapped to gmail).

          Thanks for your comment!

      2. JimmyPage Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: Why bother ?

        How about a new doozie I just discovered today:

        You can't *remove* the wallpaper from Windows Phone7, once it's been set. You can change it, but not go back to the "no wallpaper" state the phone started with.

    3. Halooch
      Thumb Down

      Re: Why bother ?

      Why would you want to send a contact by bluetooth?

      1. JimmyPage Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Why bother ?

        Because my 2005 Sony w800i could ? How else can I send a single contact from my phone to my wifes, pray tell ?

      2. JimmyPage Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: Why bother ?

        Ah the old "why would you *want* to ?" school of hiding your products deficiencies. On that basis, why have any functionality in anything ?

        I had a contact in my windows phone I wanted to share with my wife (android phone). So I started going into the contacts menu, and pretty soon discovered there was no "Send to" menu, let alone "Send to using bluetooth".

        Seriously. NO ****ING way to send a contact from one phone to another. Not by text. Not by Bluetooth.

        I can call that contact. I can email them. But can I send them as a vcard. No. And because my wife is partially sighted, I had to get her phone, and mine, and transfer the number stone-age style.

        That alone - quite apart from anything else going on with Windows Phone - should have told people all they need to know.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just great

    \the little sales WP7 had (strange how all the talk from Nokia and MS has stopped about how well the phones are selling) are dead - who wants a phone that is the end of line. At least Apple and Android do not kill the platform every few years and start over (MS seams to be having a hard time getting it right)

    Second it is a phone, not a desktop and no one cares if it is running the same OS as their desktop. Well maybe the few techo geeks here like to go home and curl up with a nice spreadsheet or write code on a 4 inch screen.

    MS is way to focused on the "windows everywhere" religion and not enough on designing phones that 99.9% of the world want. The world has moved on and MS is fading into the past.

  16. James Gibbons
    Pirate

    Phone 8 will also support native code in C and C++

    So does this mean the Qt framework will run? I thought they were not allowing this, but if you can take a desktop C++ program and run it on the phone, why not Qt? Balmer and Elop need to explain this.

  17. bolccg
    Thumb Up

    The OS also supports microSD storage

    Amen. My old Desire was the best phone I ever owned but I was ready to give WinPho a whirl only to find it didn't support external storage. That's a deal breaker for me - got a cheap HTC One V instead and am frankly regretting it a bit (the web browser is pretty poor - which is pretty much the main thing I use it for).

    1. Paul Shirley

      Re: The OS also supports microSD storage

      ...then replace the browser, Google apps are rarely the best in class. Dolphin HD is nice.

      1. bolccg

        Re: The OS also supports microSD storage

        Yup, I'm trying out Dolphin now. I think that the issue is really one of the phone being under-powered, though. Every time I double tap to resize it hangs for a few seconds (sometimes up to ten to fifteen seconds on the stock browser, which is deeply tedious).

  18. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Davidoff
      Holmes

      Re: The “Core” they’re referring to is the “executive layer”

      "Desktop Windows either loads a single-CPU or a multi-CPU at startup depending on the hardware"

      Only if you're still running Windows NT 4.0 or earlier, as since Windows 2000 we have a unified HAL that serves single-processor/-core and multi-processor/-core equally.

  19. Paul Shirley

    the killing blow to Nokia

    All the fun to be had baiting the Microsoft apologists, all now frantically treading air cartoon style after the ground was snatched from under them, distracts from the big news here.

    Microsoft just administered the killing blow to Nokia. Who in their right mind will buy todays Lumias now? This is the 'burning platform' all over again. Except this time they have stock sitting unsold in warehouses waiting for a loss making fire sale.

    When it hits $50 I might even buy one as a keepsake.

    1. Bob Vistakin
      Thumb Up

      Re: the killing blow to Nokia

      I think I'll create another 10 fake reg accounts so I can upvote you with all of them.

      1. Phoenix50

        Re: the killing blow to Nokia

        And there he is.

        1. Bob Vistakin
          Terminator

          Re: the killing blow to Nokia

          @Phoenix50 Your aim when shooting messengers is excellent - well done. Bit of friendly advice though mate - you're gonna need a lot more ammo now.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: the killing blow to Nokia

      Screw the Lumia phones and buy the real keepsake: Nokia 808 PureView. A high-end camera that happens to let you make phone calls and surf the web... what's there to dislike about it?

      And if you like the Lumia 800/900 form factor, go grab a Nokia N9.

      Let the Windows phones collect dust on the shelves, in the warehouses and in the bargain bins.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    My sister used to work as a marketing droid for the Windows Phone division. She still says that iPhones 'are all fart and no poo'. Personally I think that's the probably more complimentary. The first time she said that was the first day I realised my sister is in fact an idiot. Some of the MS PR she forwarded to me was comical, the way they trimmed quotes to make things sound good... shocking. Bought every line of MS stuff... even seemed to think Ballmer knew what he was doing.

    Whilst I have no great love for Apple, they have created a system that does work for many... just not my preference. I do tire of my mates attacking each other over phone preferences. It's a blasted phone!

    1. Tom 35

      iPhones 'are all fart and no poo'

      So MS is all poo and a fan?

      1. hplasm
        Happy

        Re: iPhones 'are all fart and no poo'

        All poo and a few fanbois...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      all poo...

      and with this announcement, the poo has hit the fans.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Microsoft is the Great Mighty Poo

      I am the great mighty poo,

      And I'm going to throw my Windows phones at you.

      A huge supply of tish

      come from my Metro starfish

      How about some scat you little twat.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Beta Test is Over"

    Were the people who came up with Nokias "Beta Test is Over" ad campaign the same clowns who thought the Microsofts "plays for sure" logo a clever marketing handle?

  22. Julian 3
    Mushroom

    Burning Platform

    Stephen Elop warned about Nokia being on a burning platform. Looks like Nokia owners just got burned!

    You were warned!

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: Burning Platform

      I'm a Nokia owner, but I'm not burnt. You see, my OS is supported till 2016* unlike WP7 which appears to be supported just for the next few months.

      * Unless Nokia goes bankrupt or Elop manages to take an even worse decision than he has done already, he's probably capable of killing Symbian off now just so he can claim that WP7 was supported for longer.

  23. Gordon 8
    Unhappy

    Nokia

    I'm pissed, 3 weeks in to a 2 year contract with a Lumia 900.

    Did not want an apple, or a google phone, should have got the blackberry....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      should have got the blackberry

      Yes because then you can upgrade your phone to BB10 when it arrives... oh, wait...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Nokia

      That'll teach you to buy another Windows phone.

      Microsoft doesn't care about the Osbourne effect, unfortunately to the detriment of its hardware partners (RIP Nokia).

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Nokia

      @Gordon 8. Reads like you have a good case to get the contract cancelled since Nokia knew this was going to happen well before your purchase but failed to tell you, in fact deliberately hid the fact. Or you could try to get your carrier to agree to replacing with a WP8 phone when avaialable.

  24. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    Global Control AIR&id Development for CyberSpace BaseD Land Grabs

    A convenient communications device which provides secure encryption to messaging and VPNetworking is a quantum leap into fields which attract astute autonomous active accommodating leaderships ....... with Microsoft supplying novel transmission macroware, and in a remote proxy charge position with virtual command and control thin clients who would reliantly grateful/gratefully reliant upon a fostering relationship of mutually beneficial advantage with proprietary private intellectual property programs from the aforementioned virtual command and control thin clients shared sublimely with hosting carrier facilities for the wealth and blockbuster power of global corporate clout?

    Phone8 is not an upgrade or morph of anything currently existing, it is a whole new iterative invention for imaginative users of SecuredD Systems with Global Operating Devices. Welcome to the Great Game ARG with Virtual Machines that are plugged into Infinite Power with Immaculate Control, ...... and a quite perfect enough combination for 21 Centuries of Networking for Being.

    Would Microsoft then be able and/or enabled to rule the wwworld with SMARTR Programs and Programming Projects/Hearts and Minds Capture Missions? Or would that be wholly in the gift of sharing thin clients?

    1. Bob Vistakin
      Terminator

      Re: Global Control AIR&id Development for CyberSpace BaseD Land Grabs

      WTF did I just read?

      Is this message from an Android of the future, sent back in time to warn humanity of the evils of SkyNet?

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: Global Control AIR&id Development for CyberSpace BaseD Land Grabs

        No, it's amanfrommars. He's asking if MS can manage to get anywhere with WP8 unlike their failure with WP7. I think.

        1. h4rm0ny
          Headmaster

          Re: Global Control AIR&id Development for CyberSpace BaseD Land Grabs

          No, he's highlighting the increased capacity to use encryption and the in-roads into privacy that this heralds and pondering the interaction of this increasing capacity amongst individuals with the desire of entrenched powerbases to track and scrutinize those individuals; essentially posing the new OS as the start of a sea-change, rather than mere iterative development. All quite clear, I thought.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Miek
        Linux

        Re: Global Control AIR&id Development for CyberSpace BaseD Land Grabs

        @Bob

        It's the Quantum Foam: It makes him roam.

  25. Kurt 4
    FAIL

    Only Tiles?

    On Windows 7, I have icons, folders and widgets. On Android I have icons, folders, and widgets. On WP8 all I get is tiles? I guess I'll stick with android so I can continue my windows 7 experience.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Only Tiles?

      Tiles are the way of the future baby.

      Metro, Metro, Metro!

      Don't want touch on your desktop? YOU are the problem!

      Want a start button on your desktop? YOU are the Luddite!

      Don't want a Windows tablet/phone? YOU are the hater!

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The flagship Nokia W8 phone is going to have to be *really* ****Ing good!

    1. Paul Shirley

      Did you mistype "****ed good"?

  27. Mark Allread
    Meh

    They could have handled it better

    Apple seemed to get away with upgrading older phones to 'iOS 5' except without Siri and other features. So couldn't MS have also claimed that older phones would get WP8 except without the hardware reliant features?

  28. Miek
    Trollface

    What's this? No black bar running down the side making the screen look narrow?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Yay

      Now you can have up to four columns of Metro live tiles on your homescreen!

      Your friends are going to be so impressed and promptly dump their iPhones and Android phones.

      1. Miek
        Trollface

        Re: Yay

        "Now you can remove up to four columns of useless Metro live tiles on your homescreen!" -- fixed that for you!

        1. dogged
          Thumb Down

          Re: Yay

          I It was liked the black bar. It kept your thumb off the tiles when scrolling. It gave a clear view of where to find the App List. It was tidy. Clean.

          The WP8 homescreen looks like a cluttered mess.

          Sure, the features are good (especially MicroSD support) and I don't much give a damn about not being able to upgrade my November 2010 phone to an OS that makes it runs like a three-legged dog but really, despite all the retarded comments about wasted space we got from fandroid trolls, it was clean. It was simple. It was minimal.

          This is just a mess.

          1. Miek
            Trollface

            Re: Yay

            problem?

            1. dogged
              Trollface

              Re: problem?

              bored?

              Gotta be a reason you're posting about a thing you don't care about and which is already dead, according to you.

              Right?

              1. Miek
                Trollface

                Re: problem?

                Who said I don't care? I'm genuinely interested in what's said here. Windows, will never really be dead, but like others, I see that Windows marketing and product hype is about as cheesy as a bit of dad-dancing. I quite chuckled at the Windows 7 launch party stuff, that was hilarious ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cX4t5-YpHQ ). The Red Bull "Flying Machine" competition was another Microsoft "Win" ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLkphZYt_Zk ) They even did a bit of dad-dancing before they crashed too!

                1. dogged

                  Re: problem?

                  That's true, linux marketing is so much... wait...

                  1. Miek
                    Trollface

                    Re: problem?

                    "That's true" -- I knew you would see sense at some point.

                    1. dogged

                      Re: problem?

                      Maybe when you grow up a bit and cease to assume that there's good and evil in the world of business.

                      There is only evil.

                      FOSS is no "better" than Microsoft. And Apple is worse than both.

  29. typeo

    Big downer for perople with WP7 devices. Wonder how long ago the device makers knew this was coming. The Nokia devices did seem a bit rushed to market considering the hardware was similar to the N9 in appearance. It was almost as if they just relased it to get some sort of presence after the "burning platform" announcement and hte tie in with Microsoft.

    Will add that I've been using a Lumia 800 recently and quite like it.

  30. Epobirs

    What did you think you were buying?

    Simple rule for buying consumer electronics: Does it have enough stuff right now to make it worth the money?

    If you make a purchase based on a future and largely unknown update and that update doesn't happen or isn't what you were hoping for, you've only yourself to blame.

    Existing Windows Phone owners bought a 7.x device, not a 7.x but 8.x will make it so much better device. And 7.x users are getting a significant update in 7.8.

    Anyone paying attention knew WP7.x was targeting a low-end smartphone market and will continue to do in developing markets that are more price sensitive and feature phones still dominate. For the near term, WP8 will be for the affluent markets looking for more bells and whistles.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Ha, told you so...

    Don't ever question me again...

    http://forums.theregister.co.uk/post/1423959

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Don't ever question me again..

      Did you get pubes yet, Barry?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        IT Angle

        Re: Don't ever question me again..

        Yes, minus of course the ones in your mum's bed...

        1. Jim Coleman
          Joke

          Re: Don't ever question me again..

          "Yes, minus of course the ones in your mum's bed..."

          At least you admit you're a motherf*cker.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Don't ever question me again..

            a desperate motherfucker. My mum's pushing 70.

  32. David Strum
    Flame

    In with the new - out with the junk we paid so much for

    You know – there might be something in this: my monster – leccy guzzling i7 rig – just sounds like an old steam engine as I’m writing this comment. Why can’t it be smaller, smarter and quieter?

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