Plans for wave-pay Tube tickets don't convince pols

What about us season ticket holders?

We travel by national rail and underground, but have to keep a paper ticket flawless for a month or more!

Allow us to get season ticket contact less cards please! I dont care if its via an oyster/bank card or integrated into our photo card!

As more and more bank cards issued are becoming contactless, how will I know which card will be charged when I pass my wallet over the reader as I currently do with my Oyster card? I know, I'll just stop at the gate whilst I rummage through my wallet to find the correct card I want to use, therefore creating an impatient queue behind me. Oyster sped things up (apart from the numpties that still stand at the gate whilst fishing an Oyster out of whatever it's being kept in). This will surely slow passage down. FAIL.

They are right. It's not safe..

At best it's pointless..

Why?

At the moment, with my Oyster, when I get to a ticket barrier, I have to get the little plastic wallet out and swipe it over the reader. Takes a couple of seconds. I have an annual travelcard, which takes around 30 seconds to renew (thanks to TFL's website), but I only need to do that once a year then swipe the card..

If I switch to a NFC bank card, I have to either get my wallet out (not a good idea in some of the areas I travel to, even though I am rather large), or remove the card from my wallet. Both of which take longer than a couple of seconds.

I also have the problem that someone could run a reader over my card, and transfer money from my bank account.

Yes, I know about the limits, but I also know that it may take several transactions to trigger the security. Even if it does, bank security isn't always that reliable. Last year, when I renewed my travel card, the sudden large debit on the account triggered Santander's security and the transaction was declined. I got a text from the security system advising me to call a certain number.

The computer on the other end of the line confirmed the amount and told me it would allow the transaction. So, I went to my local branch. Their advice? Wait 48 hours to see if the transaction went through, then try again.

Thankfully, it didn't, else I would (temporarily at least) have been £1000 down. Something which I cannot afford.

So, as I am sure you can understand, I am not entirely convinced by the claims by the various authorities that NFC equipped bank cards are safe.

But, my main concern is safety. People have to get their Oyster cards out to swipe in some very dodgy places. If I get attecked and they take my Oyster card, yes, it will be incoveniant, but all I will have lost is whatever pay as you go balance I had on it (usually around £10) and a travelcard (which TFL will transfer to the new card anyway). No biggie, apart from it not being very nice if you have something stolen.

If I am attacked while swiping my bank card, they've potentially got access to my bank account. Not good at all.

Yes but.

"fraudsters would not be able to extract confidential information" but TfL would.

No mention....

Of improving the system for users to ensure that EVERY reading tells you your balance so you know when you have or haven't touched in or out and also how about immediate refunds when you are mis-charged.

In fact there seems to be no part of this new plan that even mentions that there may be improvements for users in a system upgraded... improvements that would cut down the excessive over charging situations oyster users face every day.

I am looking forward to being able to cut down on the amount of cards I carry.

It makes sense...

... to not have stacks of different cards all requiring you to keep some balance or credit or whatever on it topped up. Of course, it also enables better tracking of you by various middlemen processor companies. Which is probably why all those companies are so desperate to keep on pushing technology nobody wants.

And honestly, don't worry about privacy. Where it comes to electronic monies, you have none, and you won't get any back neither. Even asking for it would instantly label you a terrorist. So the companies don't complain about the requirements, they can sell that data they're gathering for a nice profit.

Me, I think I'd prefer cash even with the extra risk of getting extraordinarily rendered that comes with it these days, and if it must be electronicalised, then make sure your "solution" mimicks cash in anonymity as well as all the other ways nfc/pay-by-wave/oyster/whatever-du-jour try to mimick it. Provably so, yes, thanks. If that's too much effort for the companies pushing this, then it's too much effort for me to use their "innovations".

100% safe

Ain't such a thing I'm afraid. If they said the "benefits outweigh the risks", then that's okay e.g. in terms of improving egress, shortening journey times, decongesting the entrances to subways, freeing up space to rent to concessions, reducing the amount of coins and money handled and gathering metrics to assist in optimizing service.

But not 100% safe.

The most obvious risk is thieves and pickpockets will mill around the barriers waiting to rob people. But also the nuisance of a system which requires somone pull out their phone / wallet multiple times for entry / exit & inspection, or which could whack them for charges if they forget to wave out properly, or prevents them waving out because their phone battery died. And of course if there is a large disconnect between the price of a journey and the journey it is an excuse for TfL to jack the prices up, or replace travel cards with more expensive per journey charges. And there are probably lots of points of failure where bogus cards, or replay attacks can get someone free travel.

So maybe it's worth it all told but it won't be 100% safe.

I would like some form of hardware disable for the 'wave pay' technology that seems to be in all the new cards I'm getting. A pull tab that exposes the chip to UV and wipes it maybe. Because I don't want to be waiting in the queue at Tesco or at a ticket barrier, with some guy reading my card and wirelessly transmitting it to his mate who's buying a half-bottle of Scotch with my dosh, or topping up his Oyster card with £15.

"the potential lost revenue for the 4,000 small retailers that sell Oyster top-ups"

This is probably where most of the "savings" will comes from. No doubt the banks will decide to only charge Tfl half what the local shops do (for now).

Question: who would you rather make that small profit? The local shop that you sometimes also need to buy a bottle of water from, or the well loved, honest banks?

Then what happens when the banks say that they have to raise the fees for contactless charging (like they have done with everything else)? Oyster will be dead; the small shops selling top-ups and bottle of water will be closed, burnt out crack dens.

Oh yes, this is an excellent scheme. (Sorry if I missed out the bit where the bloke behind you also empties your bankaccount by remote control)

No thanks Boris

Since any supposed savings (yeah sure) form Waft 'n' Cough won't come back to passengers in the form of lower ticket prices, I struggle to see the point other than the acquisition of yet more data to be sold on without our consent.

Using a bank card also compromises physical security. I certainly wouldn't normally wave my credit card around in my scumbag infested corner of East London at midnight, and would resent being forced to do so. My wife recently lost her oyster with annual season (dropped on the bus), but it was quick and painless to get it replaced. That was all she dropped as she's smart enough not to keep it with her credit cards. If travel pass and credit card had been the same thing, it would have been a much greater - and almost certainly more expensive - pain in the rectum.

Multiplying the theft opportunity for crooks and data pimps sounds like serious FAIL to me.

Not too fast Boris!

Why do we need the fancy, dancy digital swipe card system when a bare minority of users even use this technology yet? No wonder why people don't have any confidence in it because they don't understand it.

What I don't understand is why can they not put in the tech (new ticket barriers) that will accept or can be upgraded to use the contactless tech and continue to use the oyster system? Get rid of the crappy paper based cards us communters have to guard with our lives and deploy the oyster system across the whole rail network? It's proven to work, it doesn't confuse people, it's quick and an online based purchasing system could mean we get a better deal closer to our travel day not having to pay overheads for our tickets to arrive. That means we can shove the awful national rail ticket machines into the dump as they are ridiculously poor and don't give you an efficient way of purchasing tickets quickly.

Common sense is over looked 99% of the time in these upgrade to digital plans.

Multiple cards

I have a couple of contactless cards already.

If I continue to swipe my wallet at the reader, it might randomly take £2.50 off Card A (PAYG) instead of using the season ticket on Card B.

Will we all have to start having lead-lined wallets to shield Card A from the Oyster reader?

I'm not having a second wallet or faffing about waving my credit card to everyone in the ticket hall/ bus stop! Perhaps I should shout out my PIN Number as I pass down the bus as well, just in case someone's got their eyes on a PS3 or iPad!

I found it a lot quicker to get through before they installed al those barriers. Ah the good old days when I was trusted not considered a possible thief, and the chap at the gate merely had to see the ticket in your hand..