back to article UK Cops 'duped' into arresting wrong LulzSec suspect

The 19-year-old Scotsman fingered Wednesday as a central figure of the LulzSec hacking crew is a fall guy who was framed to take the heat off the real culprit, according to unconfirmed claims from a rival group. “We believe MET Police got the wrong guy and it happens because of lot of disinformation floating on the web,” a …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm guessing the cops are in the process of

    erm, "discovering" some pictures of a compromising nature?

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hum, a couple of questions...

    1. whats the broadband speed in the suspects area?

    2. if he is released, do the police transport him back/pay for his fare?

    1. Ru
      Big Brother

      "do the police transport him back"

      Haha! As if. There's a recession on you know, they can't spend money on frivolous stuff like that. Besides, he's bound to have done something, otherwise he wouldn't have come to their attention, right? They just need to hold him long enough to find out what it is.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        RE: "do the police transport him back"

        "Everyone is guilty of something, if you look hard enough"

    2. Naughtyhorse

      on point 2

      nO the bastards wont

  3. benzaholic
    Pirate

    raising enough questions to block any conviction?

    Don't know the standards and practices of law on your side of the pond, but could they create enough reasonable doubt around the identification that nobody can be convicted?

    1. Blain Hamon
      Holmes

      Handle identity might not matter

      I'm not sure about the UK laws, but if it's akin to the Yanks, suppose the claims are correct, and the scot in question is not the hacker wanted. But they have his computer and a warrant to inspect it. And if they find a smoking gun for some other crime there, prosecution will happen, even if it wasn't for the LulzSec incident.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Handle identity might not matter

        "...But they have his computer and a warrant to inspect it. And if they find a smoking gun for some other crime there, prosecution will happen, even if it wasn't for the LulzSec incident."

        It's definately a possibility.

        Much in the same way that if they want your DNA, all they have to do is damage your car/property and wait for you to call the police. The police will then send the forensics round.

      2. Tony Green

        Even if they don't find anything...

        ...I'm sure they'll manage to find some kiddy-porn or similar to justify collaring him. They'll certainly never admit to grabbing the wrong bloke.

  4. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Devil

    So who would want to drop dox on LulzSec members?

    I mean, what's the motivation here? Paid by Scientology? Moles, Snitches and Canaries like Lamo? What??

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      Themselves for disinfo

      I thought web ninjas was made up by sabu to spread disinfo.

  5. Darren Coleman
    Trollface

    Non-story

    If the Met have enough evidence to prosecute the person they have in custody they will do so. If they don't, they won't. Smoke and mirrors isn't going to make them suddenly go "hold on lads, we better check the evidence *even more closely*"

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @darren

      Really?

      You're saying the Met have no history of making-up charges as required?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Megaphone

        Ha

        Or taking gifts in brown envelops in exchange for "inside info".

    2. Cameron Colley

      RE: Non-story

      I think you meant "If they don't [have enough evidence to prosecute], they'll magically "find" some "child porn" and ruin his life anyway.".

      I tend to agree that the various attempts at casting doubt on his identity won't make much difference though.

      1. Field Marshal Von Krakenfart
        Terminator

        The plods

        Good job he's a Scottish hacker and not a Brazilian electrician then....

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Really?

    I think Annoynmous, LulzSec and Wikileaks are government organisations set up as both a pre-emptive strike and also as honeypots.

    Also, with an additional goal of creating an excuse to enforce greater regulation of the internet.

    1. Sir Runcible Spoon

      Sir

      I don't believe these shadowy organisations work like that anymore. They tend towards agent provocateurs (sp?) to push the usual suspects into more extreme acts than they would otherwise.

      The net effect would be the same however. The internet war has been going on for a while now. The fact that the man in the street may have heard of Anonymous just goes to show how far along it is. Sixteen years ago when I was trying to educate my friends as to this new thing called the internet they were like 'what the hell is it and what's it for?'.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Title

        >"I don't believe these shadowy organisations work like that anymore. They tend towards agent provocateurs (sp?) to push the usual suspects into more extreme acts than they would otherwise."

        Agreed. Hence my post above.

    2. nyelvmark
      Unhappy

      Damn! You worked it out!

      I was there, in Area 51, when we planned the entire thing. We were on the sound stage where we faked the Apollo landings.

      But it was The Aliens who suggested it...

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      herp

      facepalm.jpg

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Scots Law

    Surely transporting him to London for questioning is illegal, the crime would have been commited in Scotland and therefore covered by Scottish law.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Rendition flight?

      Northern Constabulary is claiming no involvement in this arrest - (via twitter http://twitter.com/#!/northernPolice )

      So something's iffy.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Err...

      As I understand it, non-grographic crimes tend to be investigated by the Met, beit Scotland, Ireland, Wales of England. Suspects are transported to the areas where the crimes are being investigated.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      Try not to make too much out of it

      If one of the alleged crimes was being involved with the attack on the SOCA website, he can be sent to the local police force area for questioning and further investigations as necessary.

      Also the Met have UK-wide powers of arrest and questioning.

      In any case, he is only being held under arrest for questioning and is innocent until proven guilty. He has not been charged with any crime yet, so whether any subsequent charges are tried under English or Scots law is a bit moot.

    4. Scorchio!!
      FAIL

      Re: Scots Law

      He's wanted for questioning in the jurisdiction where the damage was done. That would be like Gary McKinnon, Adil Nasir, Carlos the Jackal [...].

  8. corestore
    FAIL

    Why the heck...

    ...would they take him all the way from Scotland to bloody *London* to question him? What an utter waste of time and resources. Are there really no cop shops between Shetland and London?

    Better, haven't they heard of Skype?

    Mike

    1. TonyG

      Skype?

      With the state of broadband to most of the Scottish Islands it's doubtful they'd be able to get a stable enough connection (I know of someone who has to schedule meetings based on the tide - at high tide his internet connection drops).

      I agree it's a waste of time and resources but as I understand it the SOP is for the investigating force to perform the questioning - so it's either send him down to London or send a team of police to the Shetlands.

    2. Scorchio!!
      FAIL

      Re: Why the heck...

      "Better, haven't they heard of Skype?"

      Skype does not give full data on non verbal behaviour, thus is not very informative where a suspect is dissimulating. The other face of the coin is to be found in PACE, in which police forces are compelled to video record in such a way that the behaviour of interviewers can be assessed for threatening behaviour, as well as the behaviour of suspects.

      There is also the small matter of keeping the suspect in jurisdiction so that information pertinent to the offence can be served up in real time for interview purposes, plus the need for interviewers to understand the local culture when interviewing. This informs interview techniques, including ways of tripping up an interviewee, knowing how valid their responses are, and so on.

      This use Skype thing that occurs each time Assange and others are mentioned is a natural response amongst people who believe that electronic crimes can be investigated electronically, but it really does fall flat on its face as far as policing, forensic psychology and forensic psychiatry are concerned.

      1. Owen Carter
        FAIL

        You mention falling?

        "but it really does fall flat on its face as far as policing, forensic psychology and forensic psychiatry are concerned."

        Plus, it lacks a staircase..

        But.. they could have just taken him to Glasgow central police station; according to Billy Connolly it has a fine staircase that many people have spontaneously thrown themselves down.

        1. Scorchio!!
          FAIL

          Re: You mention falling?

          Childish, but that roughly what I've come to expect from that side of the debate. In responding you took the comments completely out of context, which was the importance of conducting interviews in meat space. Billy Connolly? Things have changed a lot since since he flowered. Police officers even go to prison for perverting the course of justice, and more will in the near future. Just watch the NoTW debate, which will become even more torrid.

    3. Ru
      Holmes

      Extraordinary rendition is all the rage these days

      You find someone causing a bit of trouble, and you arrange to have them flown away to some godforsaken morally bankrupt police state where the local law enforcement officials have a reputation for getting what they want out of their suspects and a bit of tendency to shoot people.

      As with any other outsourcing deal, results may be mixed but are quite justifiable to management.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Ru

        It's not Extraordinary Rendition, it's perfectly normal Ordinary Rendition. The suspect has been rendered to the investigating Police Authority in a perfectly normal legal manner.

        The whole Extraordinary bit in Extraordinary Rendition is that it is extra to (that is, outside of) the ordinary, ie: Not the normal way of doing things.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    come on guys

    if you want a handle call yourself the or smith or a or user. gedit?

  10. nyelvmark
    Boffin

    Anonymous

    You're only anonymous if NOBODY knows who you are. The principle of the internet group of that name ought to be that nobody knows anyone else's real identity, so that if any member is "doxed" (=documented, real identity revealed) he can't dox anyone else.

    This, however, creates impossible logistic problems. How can you organise anything secretly if you have no way of knowing who you're talking to? How can you spot an infiltrator? Sure, you can use impenetrable encryption, but how can you be sure you're sending the keys to someone you can trust? Complete anonymity renders you impotent, and every person you reveal your identity to introduces an exponential security risk.

    The world's police forces (around a decade behind in technology, as usual) are now realising that they can win against such "anonymous" groups because of the above logic.

    Whilst Anonymous, LulzSec, et al may have given us a few laughs this year, I suspect that the kind of thing they've been doing will remain a fringe activity, and will cease to be news in a few years.

    1. Magnus_Pym

      Old school thinking?

      The point is you don't organise anything secretly. You do it all in the open. Organising and secrecy are old school.

      Anon 'a' says I have posted certain information anyone want it? and anons 'b' and 'c' say yes. No need to know who 'a', 'b' and 'c'; are. Even if 'c' turns out to be CIA all that happens is that the CIA get access to information the probably already have.

      or

      Anon 'x' says I propose a protest at a specified location on a specified date. 'x' may or may not turn up and if a crowd turns up too, 'x' may or may not join in. There is no need to keep it a secret. Even if the thought police turn up and photograph everybody in the area they still can't positively identify 'x'. In all probability 'x' is in a different country.

  11. heyrick Silver badge

    If he is an innocent fall guy...

    ...(not saying he is, but *if* he is) then how would this affect his eCRB prospects?

    And as the other poster said, why was he taken out of the country? To get around the Scottish legal concept of "not proven", perhaps?

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    My guess?

    They (the police, intelligence lead (cough - cough) raids, ... ) are on a path to embarrassment.

    Well, at least a 19 year old Shetlander had an all expenses trip to the big smoke courtesy of ....

    I hope they at least offer him some guided tour highlights of the big smoke apart from the cell he has probably had to endure.

    1. Tony Green

      Highlights?

      I hope they at least offer him some guided tour highlights of the big smoke apart from the cell he has probably had to endure.

      Seeing London will remind him why he likes living in the Shetlands.

    2. Ru

      There's a traditional tour

      round the station and down the big flight of steps a few times. At speed.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Ru

        We don't live in the 60s, 70s or 80s, please give over with the "Teh rozzers will beat him until he talks" bullshit. It just makes you sound like a teenage conspiracy theorist.

        1. Field Marshal Von Krakenfart
          Black Helicopters

          @AC 11:14

          Well said sir, the rozzers have much more sophisticated techniques now.

          1. david 63

            AC 11:14

            Did the police stop becoming thugs in the 80s?

            I must have missed something.

            1. Naughtyhorse

              odd that

              all police dramas fro the last 50 years are based on the premise that we are the nice coppers, not like them violent, corrupt old bastards from 10 years ago.

              willing suspension of disbelief fail

          2. Naughtyhorse
            Holmes

            much more sophisticated techniques...

            e.g.

            red is positive

            black is negative

            make sure to keep his balls nice and wet

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    Exposing Topiary

    They should stop trying and just ask. Paris will be more than willing to show them her bush.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      Pure class!

      Hmmm

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Trollface

    Stand up?

    I'm Topiary and so's my wife - sorry couldn't resist.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Trollface

      No I'm Topiary

      And my wife is Louise Boat

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Black Helicopters

      spartacus moment

      I am Topiary

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So

    They kidnapped someone from Shetland - possibly with implicit threats of violence.

    They (CIA style) rendered him to a different legal jurisdiction

    They would have stolen a lot of his stuff - computers, phones etc

    Held him incommunicado

    And they quite possibly have the wrong person.

    1. TeeCee Gold badge
      FAIL

      Re: They (CIA style) rendered him to a different legal jurisdiction

      Go on then. Explain exactly how Shetland (Country = UK) falls under a different legal jurisdiction to London (Country = UK). If Mr Salmond and his merry men ever get their way, you'll have a point. Until then however.....

      Oh and kidnapped != arrested. Taken as evidence != stolen. Possibly held incommunicado, we don't know and that may even be legal for a period depending on which bit of legislation he was arrested under.

      I like the tinfoil hat though, very fetching.....

      1. Anonymous Coward
        FAIL

        Scottish Law is different to English Law.

        Thus while they are (currently) both in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, there are very different legal jurisdictions.

        There's quite a few things that are legal in Scotland and illegal in England and Wales and vice-versa, and the legal system is quite different - the Scots idea of a 'Not Proven' verdict is one significant difference.

        That said, the alleged crime is alleged to have happened in or near London, and extradition to England from Scotland is automatic.

        That said, yes, kidnapped != arrested, however the Metropolitan Police have one of the worst reputations in the world - where else would someone who ordered the shooting of an innocent man and then lied and conspired to cover it up get promoted?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @AC 11:32

          "however the Metropolitan Police have one of the worst reputations in the world"

          Utter, utter crap.

          If you want just one example, look at Rio, in Brazil, where it's the norm for a large proportion of the local police to just kill the street kids because they're seen as vermin. One group of Brazilian police went on a killing spree because of a pay dispute a couple of years back.

    2. dave 54
      FAIL

      Hyperbole

      Yeah, probably better if they just leave a Post-It on his door, asking him to turn himself in if he's guilty.

      Muppet.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Let me troll too

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, one fail after the other.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Holmes

    In short

    Quote

    They (CIA style) rendered him to a different legal jurisdiction

    Unquote

    In short they breached their powers and the 19 year old Shetlander (maybe with parental guidance?) can now sue both local police, the thought police acting on (cough - cough - it must be hayfever?) intelligence, human rights commission, ... (I mean, after all, they all are publicly funded and paid for out of taxation) and seek redress appropriate to the intensity of the breach he endured?

  18. Don Mitchell

    Is there secrecy on the internet?

    He who LOLZ last LOLZ best. Ultimately, the packets run over corporate satellites and AT&T photonic switches and undersea cables. Almost every packet on the internet goes through NSA filters. So, it may seem like there is a hidden virtual world of hackers, but I think that will turn out to be an illusion. The actions of Anonymous and LulzSec just encourage the owners of the internet to develope better ways to track our activity.

    1. Woodgar

      @He who LOLZ last ....

      .... is still using dial-up.

      Or living in the Shetland Isles.

  19. Spanners Silver badge
    Pirate

    Clarification

    Someone referred to the victim as Scottish. There are no doubt many Scottish people in Shetland but Shetland, like Orkney where I come from, is not Scotland. It is certainly covered by the Scottish legal system and is part of the UK. If you had wanted to get my grandfather angry, all you had to do was tell him he was in Scotland. Me? It depends on who I am talking to...

    Someone else joked that at least he got a free trip to London out of it. Like many people from the North, he might not feel to pleased about that.

    1. Scorchio!!

      Re: Clarification

      Sprecken sie Norn?

    2. Neily-boy

      Re-clarification

      Bad news! I'm afraid your Grandfather was wrong! Orkadians and Shetland Islanders are both genetically and legally Scots. There is a misguided belief that the Northern Islanders are descended from the Vikings - they are not. The vast majority are and always have been Celts/Picts in their genetic make up. Don't worry, you're not alone - The English, who believe themselves to be genetically Anglo Saxon, are also wrong. They too are predominantly Celtic. Invaders came and went, but as victors, left a massive cultural identity stamp on the areas they conquered. The original inhabitants were never driven out and hence the genetic make remained remarkably intact.

      Great news! No one needs to feel superior or inferior anymore - we're all the same.

      Have a read of "Blood of the isles", you'll be amazed.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Facepalm

        lol re-clarification

        We Came

        We saw yer maw

        We left lots of little baskets behind

  20. lunatik96

    The Fascist confidently stroll in stupidity

    The cops are just showing how stupid they really are. They should be more than a little sure to snag somebody off the street like this, The next victim will have this episode to bolster a lawsuit against the bobbies.

    Go Anon, Lulszec, etc! It's time something did a little shaking up of the status quo.

  21. Disco-Legend-Zeke
    Pint

    First Prize = One Week In London;

    second prize = two weeks in London.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Coat

    What did they use for transport?

    Ponies?

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    For the Lulz

    I am Topiary

    You cannot arrest an idea.

    1. Danny 14
      Facepalm

      wut?

      "and it happens because of lot of disinformation floating on the web"

      BUT I DIDNT KNOW WIKIPEDIA HAD LIES IN IT! FOR TEH SHAME!

  24. Juan Inamillion
    Megaphone

    I'm Spartacus!

    Next!

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    London

    The main reason he was transported to England is so that he could be arrested in an English cop station, meaning he can then be charged under English law, which then means over the next 5 years whilst awaiting trial should he plead not guilty he will be traversing down and up fae Shetland costing the poor boy monies he cannot afford before giving him 18 months split to 9 split to 4.5 months inside and out on tag. Nay bad really.

    The good - English law = less time inside. Only a third off in Scotland, half in England

    The bad - he will need a solicitor who practices English law, not many of them in Scotland with the experience he needs so even more trips south of the border.

    They are bastards like that.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: London ac@9.08

      >> 18 months split to 9 split to 4.5 months inside and out on tag. Nay bad really.

      >>

      >> The good - English law = less time inside. Only a third off in Scotland, half in England

      Half off for what? and a third of for what? In England it is still 1/3 off for early plea, half for parole, up to half for good behaviour etc.. The existing system in England means he'd serve as little as 3 months inside for an 18 month sentence (it would have been 2.25 months, if they'd gone ahead with the 50% off for guilty plea). Would it be 1/3 off at all stages in Scotland, if so, the minimum he'd expect to serve would be 5.33 months (75+% longer).

  26. b166er
    FAIL

    The yard

    no shit sherlock...

  27. Bassey

    Missing something

    Everyone seems to be missing a rather pertinent point here;

    The guy stole the identity of ANOTHER member of Lulzsec. So, even if they don't have "the official spokesman" of the group, they still have another member of the group - albeit a junior one.

    Obviously this (as with all comments above) works on the basis the story actually has any truth to it.

    1. Ru
      Facepalm

      "they still have another member of the group"

      They have a loud-mouthed semicompetent internet user.

      This isn't some super secret clandestine terrorist cell. The only people who know *anything* are the ones who actually perform the effective attacks, and they are apparently competent enough to hide their tracks this far. Everyone else is just a script kiddie or wannabe who hangs around on various fora and merrily engages in a DDOS on request of some dude on the internet because they have no idea what they are doing.

  28. Nick Sargeant

    Where are the Spartacus gags?

    I was expecting 30 'No, I am Topiary!' comments in this thread. Are people worried that if they made that crack, there'd be a SWAT team in the back garden in three minutes?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Joke

      Re: Spartacus

      I'm Nick Sargeant!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Spartacus

      Yes.... for I am Anonymous !

  29. Lamont Cranston
    Thumb Down

    Getting someone else arrested for your own shady behaviour?

    I'll bet the patsy really appreciates the "lulz".

    Bugger off.

  30. Miek

    HaHaHa

    So much for "pre-planning", try sticking to the doughnuts and coffee.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Happy

    Re: For the lulz

    No, I'm Topiary ... and Spartacus!

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The Jester

    I out the Jester as J Sparrow.

    Let's see him put that in his pipe and smoke it when I post it (the google and bing cache (now cleared) ) up on his wiki entry.

  33. NomNomNom

    the problem with anonymity

    is noone will miss you if you were to suddenly "disappear"

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    th3j35t3r really is a doosh

    That is all.

  35. Fred Mbogo

    I AM ZORRO!!

    *Sniff* They took my horse....

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why so quiet on twitter?

    If he wasn't the right guy, why is the Twitter feed silent?

    Seriously When previous arrests happened every time they shouted "they got the wrong guy we are still here" on their feed.

    Time to admit it guys, they have got the right man if they didn't he'd be all over twitter right now denying it just like when Cleary was done.

  37. Britt Johnston
    Unhappy

    Spartacus is not available

    I tried to be Spartacus but Youtube only offered spartacus47619

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm Brian.....

    So is the wife

  39. Glen Turner 666
    Coat

    All is quiet on the twitter feed

    They've obviously got the right guy, in the sense of being the person who maintains the LulzBoat twitter account. But now they'll need to go through his computers to see if he did any of the group's criminal activities as well. Shouldn't be too hard to make a criminal conspiracy stick, as these sort of people usually keep their chat logs.

    His computer and his interrogation will lead them to other people within LulzSec and Anon. And if he's got half a brain he'll have a decent solicitor and be dumping on his friends before they can dump on him. So we are at the beginning of this, not at the end.

    Interesting that this front-man of a gang of hackers is arrested by the Met, whereas that other front-man of a gang of phone hackers still hasn't been arrested. Lulzsec obviously haven't been paying the Met anything like Murdoch's gang of hackers has been.

  40. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    have i got this right

    we have a guy from Shetland arrested because they think he is Topiary.

    we have a website saying that a Swede is Topiary.

    we have a transcript from the alleged Swede saying he thinks the police are closing in. Is aware that the UK guy has been arrested and is stopping the twitter feed to make it more convincing that the police have the right guy.

    So either:

    A: The guy from Shetland is Topiary and the website and transcripts are designed to make it look like he's not.

    B: The Swede is Topiary and the guy from Shetland isn't.

    C: Someone else is Topiary and is have a good laugh about the whole thing.

    D: Topiary does not exist and the whole lulz thing is actually a Chinese AI experiment

  41. Tim 39

    Shetland Islands

    Just because he might be from another country, doesn't mean that can't be him. I said this before on other websites, that he could have easily moved there thinking he could hide on a remote island.

    Now I read this story which confirms kinda what I said.

    http://news.scotsman.com/news/Shetland-village-mystery-over-39cyber.6809401.jp

    "he isn't originally from Scalloway. "

  42. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain

    While everyone is agonising about hacks, hackers and plod, I'm a little more concerned about what nasties our government might be slipping in right under our noses

  43. Silent but Deadly
    Coat

    Clearly this is beyond the Met's ability....

    You need a privet detective for cases like this.

    Mines the one shaped like scales of justice.

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