Turkey probes The God Delusion for 'insulting religion'

What!

Can someone please explain why we are letting these people join the EU?

Hysterical

So now the world is in search of a tactful way of telling deluded idiots their sacred beliefs are a load of crap. Tricky one.

Fanatics scare the daylights out of me

Having faith in a supreme being is all well and good until you show up at my door. I have my own beliefs. I do not force them on others. I expect the same courtesy in return. Faith is one of those things that should be intensely private like making love.

How about a follow up?

It could be called "The Turkey Delusion", and debunk the belief that Turkey isn't run by deluded fools.

Still, the way UK law is heading, we'll be back to having to "respect" these fairy-story belief systems too.

Turkey should totally be in the EU...

But frankly given the xenophobic reaction by nations that think the EU should be a x-ian only club they're probably better off staying out.

Article 301 is clearly a problem; the government is clearly interested in doing something about it. I'm sure the publisher isn't going to get done under that law; it just doesn't seem to apply given that Turkey is a secular state and not an Islamic republic.

Funny

The first chapter of that book is all about how it's okay to criticise almost anything except religion, and why that should ( or should not ) be the case.

Quite odd that a supposedly secular country like Turkey is pursuing it. Surely secular covers atheism as well.

makes a change

that makes a change from religion insulting peoples intelligence.

@crashIO

Erm, I take it you harbour a dislike for pron then...?

Otherwise good standpoint!

@crashIO

I suppose that would make organised religion pornography then. Doing it in public, with everybody looking etc.

(Hey, Reg! Organised doesn't have a 'z' - surely a UK publication should have a UK English compatible spell-checker! - it can't spell theatre either. It's a pity It won't correct 'there', 'their' and 'they're' though [sigh])

@Anonymous Coward 1

"Can someone please explain why we are letting these people join the EU?"

From what I've seen of EU "incitement to hatred" and "hate speech" laws, Turkey, far from being a laggard, is on the avant garde of European policy.

Well that will be another reason not to let them join the EU then....

Teddy Bears called Mohammed, now this. When will the world learn: religion - just say no.

Still at least Turkey doesn't prosecute the victims of rape so that makes them moderate muslims then I suppose?

Their business

If any country wants to proscribe negative comments on their religion that is - as far as I'm concerned - their business (and that of their citizens). Of course we can do business with them, at arm's length, and enjoy relations with them that lead to better understanding.

The problem we've made for ourselves is that, instead of respecting our own traditions and institutions, we've bent over, wrung our hands and spent the last decades apologising for being British.

Time we sorted our own problems instead of pointing out others'.

Dawkins should be proud

It doesn't matter how much religious people run to the courts, there still isn't a god :-)

Uh huh

A reader of a book called "The God Delusion" has complained that it insults "sacred values".

Well put me in a bear suit and call me Mohammed!

Is it competition time or something?

Seems like there's some sort of bidding war going on for the most shit-thick, regressive claim of criminality going on.

We've had the ever progressive Saudi establishment insisting on the incarceration and whipping of a women for having the brazen feminist lunacy of not only getting raped but complaining about it.

Next up the Sudanese government offered to flog a teacher for calling a fake bear after an imaginary man - AKA Mohamed.

Now Turkey, upset at suspicions of liberality cropping up, reaches for the blasphemy laws once more.

So far, a certain flavour of Islam seems to be hogging the limelight: come on Jews and Christians, where are you? The Lords Resistance Army of Uganda, I'm thinking of you just about now... .. .

Mind that Rabbi who blamed hurricane Katrina on Louisiana's black population as they 'don't do Torah' really wouldn't go amiss either,

C.

I agree with the turks...

but only because dawkins is such a pointless individual and anyone associated him deserves to be locked up. Well, okay, i'm exaggerating quite a lot. But really.

Does such a clearly intelligent man really have to write thousands and thousands of overly convoluted words to point out that ...What. We have no proof of God, religion can cause wars, people can get a bit obsessive. Well no shit sherlock. Pats on the back all round. Is his next book going to be, 'Water - how we can't live without it.' Or is it that other classic 'Crystal Balls, they don't really see into the future?'

Can't wait for those insights either.

I don't do god at all but nor do I get tied up in being anti-god. It's all irrelevant. It's not like he's saying anything new, interesting, revelatory - although i guess he'd probably be against the latter anyway.

These atheists are just as fanatical. Bloody Freethinker readers. At least with the god believers you know where they are on a sunday, atheists creep up on you when you're least expecting it.

Title

I do try to accept other cultures as merely being different to my own. and accept they are as worthy of respect as my own values. But it is difficult to retain tolerance in the face of such blatant intolerance such as we have had reported recently. If I wasn't trying so hard I might even think that It appeared, some folk deliberately hold ridiculous views, and countries pass ridiculous laws, just to be awkward.

Dawkins delusion

Insult to religion? Insult to descent well structured arguments more like.

Either way, it's just a book putting forward someone's opinions, it can be insulting in parts, sometimes apparently deliberately so, in order to ram home an argument, it is pretty transparently a rallying call to Dawkins' fans. Ultimately if something exists that is insulting to your religion, chances are that it will polarise people's beliefs so are that a fair amount of people will become stronger believers because of it.

To quote Galileo

"I feel no need to subscribe to belief in a god who has endowed in us sense, reason and intelligence, but does not wish for us to use it"

Religious idiocy has been going on for millenia but until we stop giving into any moron with a belief in fairies and stand up to the idiots that perpetuate these stupid ideas things will not improve...

RE: Racist and Hateful Postings to this article

>"I am not a Turk..I am a human being!!!"

I don't think that was an attempt to dehumanize Turks, but more an attempt to try arguing the logic that one's geographical place of birth should not define them. Any more than one should say that they're Catholic, Protestant, or Muslim before they remember that they're human first and foremost. It's the thing we all have in common. :-D

>"Can someone please explain why we are letting these people join the EU?"....

>

>I cannot belive there people are readers of the Register enjoying insulting Turks >and calling US "un-human" "these people".

The concern people are expressing here is really in response to such a Theistic culture where this could even be considered. The problem with this view point is that in these terms I can see that the UK seems to be lagging behind, but we'll catch up. Bearing in mind that in the US the equivalent nut-jobs have already had their shouting.

>I see that most of you are more ignorant than moronic prosecuters who file >charges that will never materialize in the courts of Istanbul.

I don't think that it's fair that this sort of Generalization is thrown around, in either direction. The prosecutors need to be hand-slapped for raising this, I agree.

>Racisim is bigger crime than lack of human rights..

Bugger. You see, right up until there I was right with you; I've only been fortunate to meet a handful of turks, each of which was as nice a person as I could hope to meet, but that, right there is a bunch of crap.

Racism is similar to a lack of human rights; both dehumanize the individual and damage their liberties based upon erroneous, misinformed perceptions. However, as they're both grey areas, where does one draw the line? Is referring to the local shop as a "Paki's" really worse than giving somebody 200 lashes for being Raped?

The Science Delusion

I think a lot of humans have a predisposition to want explanations for phenomena.

This predisposition is making them believe that science is the new religion.

Science is just 'best guess', most good scientists will tell you that. Science through the ages has proven itself wrong countless times. That is the beauty of science.

But, ever since Dawkins has been going on about the God delusion, science has been attracting the moonbats who would normally be associated with main stream Religion. After seeing a few of his talks, I think he borders on the delusion that science can explain all, but still marvels at the things we (well he) don't know. Most of his followers though use his work to support the religion of atheism.

Who is to say that evolution was not designed, or that our understanding of the world was not already mapped out at the macro level; the dark ages and the Library of Alexandria's burning demise could point to some external influence.

One thing is for sure though, nearly all religions are about control, they are the tap from which decisions flow. It just looks like the new religion of science wants that role now.

Re: I agree with the Turks - and the comment about racism

Dawkins didn't just write about religion. He's an evolutionary biologist. I wouldn't lightly call a man with his achievements 'pointless' - have you read The Selfish Gene? Heard of it?

...Now to the comment about racism - I think you've taken the posts here a bit too hard (understandable though - if I read your post correctly I take it you're Turkish; if I was, I think I'd have felt the same to be honest). I think this is more about careless wording than racism.

I mean, I could easily be wrong, but I don't think people here are suggesting that Turks are crazy religious fanatics and shouldn't be allowed to enter EU countries. Some people here strongly object to the Turkish government's apparent attitude to what amounts to polite criticism of ridiculous views held by a subset of the population, and do not think it's a good idea to allow Turkey as a country to join the EU.

Personally I disagree - I don't really see a problem with allowing a relatively religious country or a country with a relatively religious government to join. After all the UK is a fairly christian place (not something I approve of; 'broadly christian' worship sessions being required in schools is frankly bizarre. I was raised an atheist and found it a little confusing as a young child being told that there was an afterlife and a god that my parents hadn't mentioned to me by people who couldn't back up their claims in any way, but people I generally trusted and was expected to believe, in other contexts).

Anyway, I digress. My point really is that I don't think this place is full of racists; don't worry about it. I suppose it would make sense to speak carefully when one's words might offend.

(Actually come to think of it, I'm not sure what the hell "I'm not a turk, I'm a human being" comment meant; racist or not it's a bizarre and apparently nonsensical comment!)

I do think though that it's a bit much to say that racism is worse than human rights abuses. I think it's a subset of them. Obviously I'm not condoning it, but I think to suggest that human rights abuses in general are less serious than racism in particular is a bit of an odd assertion.

Pointless argument

I was always told that when in polite company never discuss, sex, politics or religion. I asked why and my dad quietly told me (out of earshot of my mum) because with any of these three you get a bunch of freaks,fanatics and fuckwits. Because if you do it right, or wrong, with any of these you will come out of it dirty, embarrassed and in need of a hot shower and a stiff drink.

Think about it ........

Not in Europe

I have to agree, unfortunately. Turkey is most certainly not ready to be part of the E.U. Not with asinine religious laws like that still on the books.

@Tam Lin

"In the US, the president George W "thumper" Bush tried to revoke citizenship of the non-theists."

Tam Lin, please tell me what you're talking about.

@I agree with the turks...

Quote: "Does such a clearly intelligent man really have to write thousands and thousands of overly convoluted words to point out that ...What. We have no proof of God"

Yes, simply because everyone else who has tried has been even MORE convoluted and ineffective. And possibly to balance out the millions of people who are very forcefully advocating not only that there IS such a being, but that you should not be given any rights unless you agree with them.

I assume you are a happily weak, submissive, and accepting person then? Maybe you should go to America...?

"The God Delusion" could save the world.

Not only does Dawkins surveys the phenomena of God but gives rational explanations of its proliferation (its a by-product of the evolutionarily beneficial ability for abstract thought), and that delusion is a natural side-effect of having a brain and that you just have to be vigilant about that (like many impulses we've all inherited).

Delusion can make a person dangerously short sighted and thats just not viable with the powers we have now to destroy the world.

He explains that he is biased towards 'evidence' for his statements and merely points out that doesn't exist for belief systems and thats why he appears or is anti-theist.

It is probably more humanly relevant than many religious texts because 'human nature as can be evidenced' (and not intangible metaphysics or souls) is actually the subject and so it implores us as thinking beings capable of considering evidence rather than receptacles for dogma and commandments. Found myself nodding to it often.

He says he cites Christianity more simply because that is his background and easier to illustrate, but his argument applies to all believes in the 'god hypothesis' (but it nevertheless contains an amazing breadth of diverse religious references).

If they send him to jail, they will have to arrest me next.

More likely it is all a political ploy - amazing how easy it is to twist religion for political gain, but i wanted to say i liked the book as well. (sorry about the length of this comment).

Re: Racist and Hateful Postings to this article

"I am not a Turk..I am a human being!!!"

Hmm, I took it differently, although it sure could be interpreted the way you did (which might tell more about you than about whoever wrote it in the first place...).

Maybe it was because of my views, but I myself saw it as a statement of humanity, instead of allegiance to a place where you were coincidentally born. When people ask me (due to my accent) where I am from, I answer "Earth". After the funny look that always ensues, I complement "but I happened to be born and raised in Brazil", so they are satisfied. I am not a Brazilian, I'm a human being! :-)

"Racisim is bigger crime than lack of human rights."

Haha, you're joking, right? Racism IS one aspect of "lack of human rights", but maybe I shouldn't expect you to know that.

chrisgood1child@hotmail.com

Running around in print or otherwise, wildly slagging people off for believing in a god or anything else, is as bad as being devout and slagging off anybody who does not believe in what ever it is that you do. Any religion that can't tolerate a little criticism is probably on shaky ground anyway, as is any critic of religion who thinks they have the only grasp of common sense.

Making love might be intensely private at the moment but it may not be once that nice Mr Darling has put a tax on it.

Saudi Woman

That woman who was violated is not going to be lashed for that but for being in a car with a man who was not family to her (a former boyfriend who had photos of her she was trying to retrieve or something like that).

("These people" certainly is a useless sweeping generalization. Turkey merits a bit more depth of analysis)

Twats

Religions are THE least accepting of other peoples beliefs. Most non-religious people accept that people can believe what they want, but deeply religious people are very unaccepting of that principle in general.

Turkey have one of the worlds worst records in human rights, and yet are "offended" by a book about religion that does not pander to the beliefs that they hold. Does that seem hypocritical to anyone else?

Dawkins is no saint

From what I've heard from Dawkins on TV (I can't see a point in wasting time to read his book) his main counterargument to religion seems to be his belief that there is no god. That in it's own right sounds like a religion to me. Beat a bigot by counter-bigotry? Thanks but no, thanks.

He also seems to suggest that all we have to do is abolish religion and Shangri-la will descend upon us. This plainly insults intelligence.

If we are a product of the evolution, clearly we have evolved to have religion in some shape or form and for a purpose. Mr Dawkins' efforts would have been more useful if he tried to examine what purpose does it serve, how to use it productively, when does it become couterproductive and how to recognise the signs and how to avoid it.

Religion is not about God, it's about us, humans. We can't live without it just like we can't live without the liver (not for long anyway). Every time somebody tries to abolish religion they only succeed in replacing it with another form of religion, a pitfall, Mr Dawkins himself have not managed to avoid.

Having said this - banning his book because it offends someone's religious feelings is so bloody... religious.

@Danny Thompson

Maybe if you actually read the book you'd understand why your view is EXACTLY the kind of thing that Dawkins is so dismissive of. "Faith" is not a valid argument, and doesn't deserve equal consideration with the scientific method. While you're correct that science can't "prove" God doesn't exist, that's to misunderstand the scientific method. Science shows that the balance of probability is heavily weighted towards no God. Faith shows us...nothing apart from faith itself.

the lunatics are in the asylum

Does morality come from religion? For me the answer is no (hell no!)...for many religious people, the answer is yes. This is a problem, you do not need 'god' to know right from wrong, and you certainly shouldn't base a countries laws on such absurd concepts - unfortunately many countries do and you end up with religious lunatics running the asylum.

Title

One doesn't need to read a particular book to support the author's right to state their opinions in it.

Intolerance may not be about agreeing with others, but one can legitimately complain that some others seem to be trying to abuse one's attempts to be tolerant to their viewpoints. We're only human and there is a limit to how much intolerance anyone can tolerate.

Hang on a minute...

... a woman is stoned to death for adultery, another woman is hanged for "incest" because her brother raped her, another woman is flogged because she called a teddybear Mohammed.... and 18 Saudi Arabian scum fly three airliners into buildings and crash a fourth plane.

Perhaps the pro-islam, pro-religion defenders of "faiths" can prove to us that Islamism, Wahhabism and Sha'ria are desirable and beneficient rather than being vile barbarous misogynist medievalism.

And keep charges of racism where they belong. Hatred of religions - or of a specific religion - is not racism. It may be based on many things but race, per se, is not a necessary prerequisite.

As to Turkey, it should not be allowed to join the EU until it drags itself into at least the 20th century, if not the 21st. It is generally thought that the EU is a socio-political grouping of European nations but by culture, tradition and even geography Turkey is not a European country.

The book

Whilst I did enjoy the book and agreed with it in the most part - I didnt like the antagonistic approach in many parts. I feel he over used the 'negative sarcastic aspect ' of debunking religious myths. Apart from that an excellent read.

@ Mono Ape

You completely misunderstand the nature of our beloved Anonymous Coward. AC is our very own Flying Spaghetti Monster, our imaginary friend and spiritual guide.

His omnisience is proven by his ubiquitous presence all over this site like a viral rash, bringing darkness where there was formerly light, and confusion in place of order.

His self-referential and often self-contradictory posts have the same validity as the 13th century theological arguments about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Respect his presence.

Re: Racist and Hateful Postings to this article

Well "I am not a turk, I am a human being" was a parody of The Prisoner's "I am not a number, I am a human being" and can either be construed as

a) turks are not human beings

b) human beings are a superset of turks

you took a.

Because if you want to take offense, you will.

Now, please show me the genetic code for Turk and how it differs from Human. No?

Atheists not citizens of the USA

George W tried to get the oath of allegiance ("we are one nation under God") to mean that if you don't believe in God you cannot take the oath and cannot be a US citizen.

That the section was added (IIRC) in the 60's and wasn't in the original oath wasn't for him a problem.

@Vladimir Plouzhnikov

"From what I've heard from Dawkins on TV (I can't see a point in wasting time to read his book) his main counterargument to religion seems to be his belief that there is no god."

jeepers creepers. NO ITS NOT. I can see the point in you reading the point - that you may understand the arguments before posting stupid messages on websites.

His argument is ... nope I can't be bothered, read the book.

@Vladimir Plouzhnikov

The argument is that you have to define God first.

And all the definitions of God do not work.

Old testament (word of God says Bats are birds). OK, so not that one.

New testament (God loves a repentant sinner/Sinners will bur in hell) OK. Not that one either.

Bhudda (was human, achieved enlightenment). Nope, still not.

OK, what about "God is what God does". Does he cause the sun to rise? No. Does he create life? No. Does he make creatures evolve? No.

And so on.

There MAY BE a God. But whatever God is, we haven't got a description that works.

Re: Racist and Hateful Postings to this article

"I see that most of you are more ignorant than moronic prosecuters who file charges that will never materialize in the courts of Istanbul.

Racisim is bigger crime than lack of human rights.."

"Ok, we will give you twenty years for making a joke about Mohammed, you filfthy infidel, and you better be happy WE ARE NOT RACISTS!"

Another point why the Turks should never ever get into the EU.

outdated business model

Religion is nothing more than an outdated business model and, much like other businesses we've seen, its CEOs are clinging on to old ideas and suing all and sundry around them to have their way.

In its time it was the law when there wasn't law. It was about controlling the plebs. A commentary on how to behave in social situations and the like. Not eating swine is handy health advice in hot climes before the invention of the refrigerator. Now we have 'fridges it's redundant advice. Now we have our modern-day laws. Now we have science and understand there is no god or gods. Only atoms and the universe.

Science has demonstrated time and time again the fallacies in the various Good Books. Earth-centric universe anyone? Earth created 6kya? Total lack of mention of dinosaurs? How about the various "acts of god" demonstrating there is nobody out there or He is indifferent to human suffering. And while religious intolerance has caused more killing than anything else in human history I think the psychopaths in society will just find some other reason to kill each other.

I've read most of his books I can see Dawkins is an astonishingly clear thinker. People are opening their eyes and seeing that the indoctrination they were subjected to as kids is just nonsense.

Religion is dying concept. Get over it.

@Martin Harrower +

"If you had bothered your arse to read the book"

Oh God, that's exactly what I usually hear from the religious types - "if you just read the Bible, Coran, Tora, Dianetics etc etc...." Which just about proves my point :-P so, no, I'm not going to eat my words...

@Mark: "There MAY BE a God. But whatever God is, we haven't got a description that works."

But that's just sophistry, hardly an answer to a question. The problem with these arguments is that they require faith to answer them. If I believe in God I will answer in one way, if I don't - in the opposite way.

"Does he make creatures evolve? No." Says who? Maybe my God Bumbu-bimbu said that every creature must evolve or else (I would have told you to read the Book but I haven't written it yet, sorry)...

I apologise for arguing about a book without having read it first (I don't do that usually. Honest.) but I think that I've got enough information about it's content from legitimate alternative sources (the man himself, on TV) to make reading it surplus to requirements. I found his (TV) arguments shallow, unoriginal and often missing the point.

this could be interesting

see a while ago some little boys and girls got very upset when a newspaper produced some cartoon images depicting their favorite invisible friends representative - now how far will The Register go in the name of free speech (by the way, if any Americans are reading this, it would be interesting to get your views re the First Amendment and those cartoons). Personally I understand the slow-witted obesssion with invisible friends but I grew out of the need for one when I was three - guess you people have some growing to do but please do me a favour and leave us normal people out of your petty uninteresting hate filled lives or, better yet, commit suicide and go see your invisible friend early!

@Vladimir Plouzhnikov

Sorry Vlad, the books are far more insoghtful than his 'dumbed down' TV work. In this case you really should read his book before denouncing him. You never know, you may still feel the same way after you've read it......but I dont think you will.

Are you ready to accept that your beliefs may be wrong?

Didnt think so, and the same goes for any religous person.

prisoner, bible, primed to believe

1. The Prisoner (Number 2) says "I am not a number, I am a free man!" (not a human being). </pedant> I thought of this when I read Mark's "not a Turk" post too.

2. For a book which mentions love more than anything else, the Xian Bible sure do manage to stir up big bunches of hate, don't it? If Jesus truly was the prince of peace, wouldn't he be absolutely appalled at some of the acts committed in his name or under color of the religion which purports to follow his teachings?

3. Kurt Vonnegut had a good theory about the persistence of belief in deities: humans require a long "raising up" period -- from birth to late teenagerhood (or later) we are overseen, managed, and taken care of by a parent (or relative or foster parent or somebody), and having someone "above" us and generally in control becomes part of our mindset. Thus believing in a heavenly father, god, or other guy in the sky isn't too big a leap for some to make.

Religious scientists (Re: "tolerance" is also a cultural value)

Rick Brasche posted Wednesday 28th November 2007 21:01 GMT:

"Funny how history shows that many people who could actually design, perform, witness and understand the experiments to show how the universe really works, Einstein for example, were *still* strong in their faith."

There are scientists who possess a strong religious faith (for example the Rev. Polkinghorne, a distinguished professor emeritus of physics as well as an ordained Anglican minister), but Einstein was not one of them.

Although he was brought up in the Jewish faith and knew the scriptures well, when Einstein referred to "God" (as in "God does not play dice with the universe": a criticism of the probabilistic basis of quantum mechanics) he was speaking metaphorically. We know this because he said so when asked point-blank if he believed in a God.

His sense of wonder and awe when contemplating the universe inspired his research, and such feelings are also a source of inspiration to atheistic scientists such as Dawkins (as Dawkins himself tells us). A profound scientific insight is compatible with certain types of theistic belief (e.g., Fritjof Capra in "The Tao of Physics, to take a non-monotheistic example) but not with a crudely superstitious belief in a sky-god who helps mankind (or at least His "chosen people") with supernatural interventions.

(OK; there are the creationists, but the depth of their scientific understanding needs to be questioned; indeed, whether they are promulgating "science" at all.)

To get back on topic, the attitude of the Turkish state seems to be self-contradictory. Modern Turkey, as founded by Kemal Ataturk, is one of the most ferociously secular states in existence. The cited "Article 301" makes insulting *the state* illegal. It is obviously contrary to international human rights regarding freedom of speech, but has been invoked (fortunately unsuccessfully, as pointed out in the main article) in 2005 against the Nobel Prize-winning author Orhan Pamuk for stating that the massacre of a million Armenians in the early 20th Century amounted to "genocide".

That massacre, of course, occurred under the Ottoman Empire, not under Ataturk's secular state that replaced it, so the Pamuk case was also bizarre.

It is quite reasonable of the EU to take the view that a member nation cannot have garbage like this on its statute books.

@ Danny Thompson

There is no proof that there is a God. Equally, there is no proof that there isn't. What we have, as humans, is the ability to have unshakeable faith - either way.

unfortuntely the burden of proof falls on the believers as you cannot prove something doesn't exist only wether it does, have you ever heard of the flying spaghetti monster? or the celestial teapot hypothesis? try this link -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_teapot

the main reason most of us have a problem with religion is they insist on forcing they're belief systems on us and condem us for not believing the same claptrap they do. I was raised a catholic and went thru 10 long years of religious indoctrination but, thanks to Mr Dawkins, Mr Russell and many many others, I mamaged to shake off the belief and I've never looked back,. i believe(!) that belief can slow the mind and make you much more credulous and subervient.

anyway I'm off tangent here, peace and love to you all...no matter what fairy tales you believe!

@ the science delusion

"Who is to say that evolution was not designed, or that our understanding of the world was not already mapped out at the macro level; the dark ages and the Library of Alexandria's burning demise could point to some external influence."

sigh here we go again, if evolution was designed they were a pretty poor designer. our eye's are wired vback to front, our hips and pelvis don;t adequately support our weight and lets face it we're full of "design" flaws.

as for the dark age does anyone else think that could have been caused by the church supressing free thought, look what they did to the 1st few brave souls to poke their heads above the parapet. Imagine where we could be now if we hadn't lost the best part of a millenia to a dogmatic, knowledge hating, hateful religion.

At least science, generally, admits when it's wrong, admits what it doesn't know and refines itself as time passes.

again peace and love to you all