back to article Complete with keyboard and actual, literal, 'physical' escape key: Apple emits new 16" $2.4k+ MacBook Pro

A 16-inch MacBook Pro – with a freshly designed keyboard that isn't trashed by dust and includes a "physical" escape key – has landed, but it won't come cheap, costing the same as a modest family holiday or a second hand car. The $2,799 portable has a Retina display and some beefy but by no means unique specs, starting with a …

  1. Empire of the Pussycat

    "The £2,399 portable"

    that's the price for the 13", need to add another 400 quid to get to the base price for the 16"

    1. TWB

      Re: "The £2,399 portable"

      Are you sure? I had to check...

      Base model 13inch - £1299, then £1499, £1799, and £1999 for higher specs.

    2. diodesign (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: "The £2,399 portable"

      Er, I think you're wrong. This story is purely about the 16" Pro. There's no 13" involved here. The 16" starts at 2,399.

      C.

    3. Mage Silver badge

      Re: "The £2,399 portable"

      13" is only a netbook. You need at least 15" for Widescreen, or 17" to have similar height to a 15" 4:3 laptop

  2. Zebo-the-Fat

    But...

    It's still Crapple

    1. JDX Gold badge

      Re: But...

      Your keyboard seems to have its own issues. You press SHIFT+A and it types Cra

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: But...

        There's dust in it. Sorry.

      2. dv

        Re: But...

        He's probably holding it wrong.

        1. TeeCee Gold badge

          Re: But...

          Could just be the wrong sort of magic in that one.

        2. zuckzuckgo

          Re: But...

          Is this really a pressing issue?

    2. Dinanziame
      Angel

      Re: But...

      Well, students who use Apple are more likely to succeed than those who use Chromebooks!

      ...So says Apple's marketing SVP Phil Schiller

      1. zuckzuckgo

        Re: But...

        > "Well, students who use Apple are more likely to succeed..."

        Wealthier parents?

      2. simonlb Silver badge

        Re: But...

        So says Apple's marketing SVP Phil Schiller

        So says an Apple marketing shill

        FTFY

  3. David 132 Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Selective deafness

    "Our pro customers tell us they want their next MacBook Pro to have a larger display, blazing-fast performance, the biggest battery possible, the best notebook keyboard ever, awesome speakers and massive amounts of storage, and the 16-inch MacBook Pro delivers all of that and more," claimed Apple’s senior director of Mac and iPad product marketing, Tom Boger.

    I think, Tom, that you must have a failing pair of disposable EarPods wedged in your shell-likes and impeding your hearing, because Pro customers have also been asking for:

    -removable/replaceable battery

    -upgradeable RAM

    -ditto SSD

    -useful number of ports

    ...since, oh, about the last six years or so.

    (Rant follows. Feel free to ignore.)

    I used to be a huge Apple fan. Between 2006 (first Intel-based devices) and 2011 (last decently upgradeable iMac) I bought, for me, my wife and extended family, just about everything they offered - Macbooks (& Pros), iMacs, AppleTVs, iPads, iPhones... but no more. While they have this fanatical obsession with THINNER THINNER THINNER and hypocritical "we're SO green, but you can't upgrade any of our products and have to treat them as disposable" I am boycotting them.

    There. I feel better for that.

    1. J. Cook Silver badge

      Re: Selective deafness

      Total agreement with the rant.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Selective deafness

      “ -removable/replaceable battery” - usbc battery.

      “ upgradeable RAM” - likely to buy a new machine before you need to do that.

      “ ditto SSD” - thunderbolt external disk.

      “ -useful number of ports” - usbc/thunderbolt dock. These ports are infinitely more useful, plug in the right cable you have the port, be that hdmi, power, 10Gb ethernet, sdcard, whatever you need at the time.

      Currently models have been around for only 3 years.

      Quit the bullshit anti apple rant because you cannot move on from old inferior technology.

      1. Hans 1 Silver badge
        Paris Hilton

        Re: Selective deafness

        We are all entitled to our opinions, but, owning an Apple computer is not a rational choice, it might he a hipster thing to do....

        What is the bloody point of a 2mm thinner laptop if you need to lug around 8 devices and adapters ? (a separate battery, external hard drive and half a dozen adapters)

        People who buy Apple computers are either not IT literate or idiots, no ifs buts or maybes.

        Replies to points raised:

        “ -removable/replaceable battery” - USB C battery.

        Oh, another device to lug around ?

        “ upgradeable RAM” - likely to buy a new machine before you need to do that.

        You cannot be serious ... the thing comes with 4GB standard like it is 2007. I always end up maxing out my RAM for a platform as prices fall, I keep my computer for many years.

        “ ditto SSD” - thunderbolt external disk.

        Again, another device to lug around, but it gets worse, should the device fail, you're f'd, because smarty pants AppleCrook will not allow you to install to a Mac that does not have a functional internal drive. I am not sure if you can even boot a Mac from an external drive if the internal drive is broken.

        “ -useful number of ports” - usbc/thunderbolt dock. These ports are infinitely more useful, plug in the right cable you have the port, be that hdmi, power, 10Gb ethernet, sdcard, whatever you need at the time.

        So, you need to lug adapters for Ethernet, graphics, USB type A devices.

        1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

          Re: Selective deafness

          "People who buy Apple computers are either not IT literate or idiots, no ifs buts or maybes."

          I use Apple computers; they work fine for me and I'm reminded every time I have to fight with my son's plasticky Dell and it's Win10 data slurping crapware just how unutterably SHIT the competition is and why I moved to Apple.

          I'm fully IT literate and not an idiot. Dumbass.

          1. osmarks

            Re: Selective deafness

            I run Linux on Windows laptops and it seems to work okay. You can get somewhat maintainable and usable hardware at saner prices with a usable OS.

            1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

              Re: Selective deafness

              "I run Linux on Windows laptops and it seems to work okay"

              Linux isn't always an option - even when it works. Not on option for me (my company needs full MS compatibility), or for my son (his school has standardised around Windows, and won't/can't support non-standard OSen).

              1. Sven Coenye
                Trollface

                non-standard OSen

                Linux is a quite reasonable implementation of the POSIX standard. What standard is Windows based on?

                1. TTY

                  Re: non-standard OSen

                  The standard Windows is based on is that of sufficient ubiquity.

            2. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

              Re: Selective deafness

              I run Linux on Windows laptops

              And you can run linux on a Mac too - after all, it's just (effectively) a standard PC with some Apple additional extras..

              1. Gonzo wizard
                Meh

                Re: You can run linux on a Mac

                Only in a VM - what you can't do is entirely replace macOS due to a missing certificate in the EFI (the last time I checked). I can on my 2015 15" model, definitely couldn't do that on a 2016 - 2018 model - will I be able to on the new 16"? I'm guessing not.

          2. simonlb Silver badge

            Re: Selective deafness

            I think you'll find it's the OS which is shit, not the Dell machine. My five year old Acer desktop PC ran Win7* absolutely fine but had dire performance when running Win10. It now flies along under Linux better than with Win7.

            *Full disclosure - It came preloaded with Win8.1 which lasted about four hours before the Win7 DVD appeared.

          3. Blane Bramble

            Re: Selective deafness

            "I use Apple computers; they work fine for me and I'm reminded every time I have to fight with my son's plasticky Dell"

            You should have bought him a better Dell then. Apple are not the only people who make slim, light laptops, and they did not invent them.

            1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

              Re: Selective deafness

              "You should have bought him a better Dell then."

              Thanks, Captain Assumption. His school mandated the choice of laptop, spec & OS; we had no say in the matter. The laptop I bought for him is a 2012 MacBook Air, which has had zero problems, is still fully supported and still gets 5+ hours on it's original battery.

              1. LeedsMonkey

                Re: Selective deafness

                How can a school mandate the choice of laptop - did they provide it? I fail to understand how they can do this unless they are paying for it.

                1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                  Re: Selective deafness

                  The school sent all Year 1 parents a form saying students must have a laptop. They have a sole supplier who sold 3 models of laptop; all Dell, a Celeron, Pentium and a Core i3. Specced and selected together with the school. All laptops include a mandatory service subscription for the in-school service desk staffed by the vendor, who takes care of updates, PW resets and any soft- or hardware problems the kids may have. This service costs €300 for 3 years. Whilst parents can technically choose not to buy a laptop from this vendor, if they do not they will not have any support at school, and if the child has a laptop problem which prevents them doing their work, it’s their problem to get it fixed and if assignments are missed as a result, the child will not receive credit or allowance for IT related problems. The service desk will not support laptops brought from home. As I’m out of the country 2 weeks every month and my wife is not IT literate, we felt we had no real choice but to buy the laptop to get the service. It’s a piece of shit, we paid through the nose for it and I’m deeply disturbed by the blackmail/high pressure selling tactics used - fact remains, the school mandated the purchase.

                  Clear enough for you?

                  1. Lusty

                    Re: Selective deafness

                    So you'd prefer they mandate a $2300 Apple laptop? I feel like most parents would struggle to afford that...

                    1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                      Re: Selective deafness

                      "So you'd prefer they mandate a $2300 Apple laptop? I feel like most parents would struggle to afford that..."

                      How did you reach that conclusion? I'd prefer they mandate nothing at all and simply provide a support service if needed.

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Selective deafness

                  How can a school mandate the choice of laptop

                  A number of them do - my nephew's school, for instance, mandates a Macbook because it's doing a lot of music work, and a Macbook is there easier than ending up with the eternal faffing around to get drivers to work - cuts down on support and the applications are cheaper.

                  IMHO the whole debate is more religion than fact anyway. I switched to 16GB a few years back as minimum standard, and despite doing a fair amount of graphics work I have yet to hit swap so I don't see the need for upgrades there. Batteries - taking a 2nd battery is as heavy as the power supply, so pointless (although I do appreciate it if it's easily replaced - in general I keep a laptop around 4 years) but that depends on my specific use of the machine.

                  I use Macs a lot because they save me a massive amount of time. Yes, Apple does stupid things too (only beta 2 of Catalina is starting to be usable) but in the main it is still ahead of Windows in security and usability, and I can run all the FOSS tools I want on it as well, giving me the best of both worlds.

                  Your use, however, may differ. That's why an intelligent discussion would include your use parameters. Do you need large amounts of time off power (battery). Do you run lots of parallel tasks or stuff that eats memory (must be Adobe or Microsoft software then), then maybe you'd need more RAM. Your use is not everyone's use, your needs are not equal to everyone's needs, your prefrences are your own but recognise them as such - just stay with the facts instead of religion.

                  That said, still glad we managed to fully ditch MS software :).

          4. LeedsMonkey

            Re: Selective deafness

            If you are comparing bargain-basement consumer-grade crap to Apple then yes I agree with you on the build quality issues. Comparing it to a business-class laptop and that's a different story. Dell latitude and Lenovo Thinkpads are so popular with businesses because they are built really well and don't cost the earth.

            As for Windows 10 data slurping you can for the most part disable this, and the bit that is left isn't much to worry about. I'd be more concerned with your choice of browser and your surfing habits!

          5. gnasher729 Silver badge

            Re: Selective deafness

            "People who buy Apple computers are either not IT literate or idiots, no ifs buts or maybes."

            With a statement like that, you are totally disqualifying yourself. Nobody could ever take you serious in anything. I guess you are twelve, am I right? For a teen you are too stupid.

            1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

              Re: Selective deafness

              The anti-Apple brigade on el Reg really are zealots; nothing but bile, bitterness and playground insults. If you didn't build your own rig from wholesale commodity components and running an OS you compiled yourself, they'll batter you into the ground.

              Heaven forbid you've actually found an off-the-shelf solution that works for you, it's not THEIR brand of perfection so therefore it's wrong and you're an idiot.

        2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

          Re: it might he a hipster thing to do

          You made my day. This 'hipster' is 66 (almost 67) years old and would not go back to Windows even if you paid off what remains of my Mortgage.

          I have a dock at home that uses USB-C that includes Ethernet, SD, USB-A, Display Port (4k Monitor) and Can charge my Macbook. One cable to connect and that's it.

          On the move, all I need is ONE SD card adapter and even that hardly gets used as I now plug my cameras into the MacBook.

          I can't remember the last time I've plugged in a Display when away from home. WiFi does the Ethernet (usually via my phone's hotspot).

          How many places have 10Gb Ethernet anyway? 1Gb is the still the norm around here.

          This aging Hippy (and yes, I was alive in '68 and rocking with everyone else) loves being called a Hipster.

          Hendrix Lives Ok!

          1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: it might he a hipster thing to do

            I'd largely agree that Macs are not that much more expensive than similarly specc'd Lenovo's or Dells, which are just as full of solder or glue. Many of those who use them do so because we find them easier to use. That said, the inability to upgrade or replace memory, storage or battery is a serious downer and it does allowe the manufacturers to gouge, there's no other way to describe, for the options. But I think it will take government regulation to change this.

            For me. personally, a 16" notebook is not on my list of priorities. If you need a bigger screen most of the time then an external monitor and keyboard is the better and more ergonomic investment.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: it might he a hipster thing to do

              That's just not true regarding Lenovo.

              Apple deliberately designed the MacBook Pro so the keyboard was embedded/riveted within the design, so they can charge a hefty service fee for what is a very cheap part for Apple thus writing off devices outside of warranty, the trouble is it backfired on them, because of so many failures within warranty. It's purposely designed - built-in obsolescence, as is the SSD soldered to the logic board.

              My 11'' daily portable is a Lenovo Yoga 11S (i5-2014), everything is replaceable on the lower half. Keyboard (a 5 minute replacement), Ram (Standard removeable sodimm-ddr3 8GB), mSATA SSD (upgraded to 1TB), Battery (replaced once recently), Wifi, Power connector. There is no glue used inside whatsoever. All cables easily disconnect with flip-up locks to hold them in place and importantly, it's 17mm thin (so thinness can be done with removeable parts.)

              The touchscreen digitiser screen is laminated but is replaceable as one unit+aluminium back cover.

              1. Rainer

                Re: it might he a hipster thing to do

                And, if you buy a 2019 Yoga, do you think it's still as well maintainable?

                I'd be shocked if it wasn't glued together, too.

              2. John 104

                Re: it might he a hipster thing to do

                Same with my Skylake HP Envy. 13" screen, completely serviceable. All screws on the bottom. No failing keyboard, no dead pixles, no catching on fire during use. And, it's less than half an inch thick. Looks fantastic and runs great. I upgraded the SSD and have just replaced the stock battery after 4 years. Oh, and it cost me $850 US.

              3. antonyh

                Re: it might he a hipster thing to do

                The same is mostly true of my XPS13 from 2015. No glue. Ram not replaceable sadly, but battery was simple to replace. Some models are better than others, but Apple are notorious for making it hard/improbable/impossible to repair. Pentalobe screws were the first step and it's become far worse since then.

              4. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                Re: it might he a hipster thing to do

                "My 11'' daily portable is a Lenovo Yoga 11S (i5-2014)"

                "Same with my Skylake HP Envy"

                "The same is mostly true of my XPS13 from 2015"

                Laptops were a completely different proposition back in 2014/2015. The MacBook Pro of that era also had pretty much everything replaceable. 8 screws to take the bottom cover off, then you could remove the battery with 1 screw, the SSD was PCIe and replaceable, IO board was separate from the logic board and replaceable, even the WiFi/Bluetooth module was a separate daughterboard. No glue anywhere on the bottom half.

                https://support.apple.com/kb/sp703?locale=en_GB

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Selective deafness

          because smarty pants AppleCrook will not allow you to install to a Mac that does not have a functional internal drive. I am not sure if you can even boot a Mac from an external drive if the internal drive is broken

          Where to start? The childishness of "smarty pants AppleCrook" or the fact that you obviously don't have a clue about Macs?

          You can boot a Mac from any connected drive, even if the internal drive is dead. Hold down the Option key at startup and you get shown a list of bootable devices attached to the Mac.

          People who buy Apple computers are either not IT literate or idiots

          Which is manifestly not true. If you can't even be accurate about such a basic fact, why should we trust the rest of what you say?

          In short, grow up. Not everyone in the world has the same criteria or requirements as you. Denigrating them *because they don't think like you* is childish, immature and pointless. And detracts from the valid points that you do make.

        4. Rainer

          Re: Selective deafness

          13" comes with 8GB, 16" comes with 16GB standard RAM.

          If it had a replaceable battery, you'd still need to lug that around, wouldn't you?

          While user-upgradable RAM and SSD would be nice, the reality is that most users never do that and rather enjoy sleek and portable devices.

          It's a bit like insisting that every car come with feature X, because you need that feature.

          Even though most people wouldn't care.

          Why should everybody else pay for your special requirements?

          Same as USB-C vs. the rest. Apple has decided that the future is USB-C and Bluetooth - and it seems that consumers are currently voting with their feet to support that decision (witness the rising number of non-apple BT headphones and in-ear headphones on the market).

          Yes, you need batteries etc. but with the exception of the headphones, I'm with Apple on this one.

          For a portable device, less is more.

          1. John 104

            Re: Selective deafness

            @Rainer

            Don't be obtuse. No one carries a spare battery with them. The point is that when the battery dies, the consumer can source a new one and install it themselves. With the Apple way, it is glued in, and there is no recourse for replacing the battery - WHICH WILL WEAR OUT - other than paying exorbitant amounts at the 'genius' bar, or throwing the device away. Myself, I just replaced my battery in my HP. Cost me $40 and about 10 minutes with a screwdriver.

            1. gnasher729 Silver badge

              Re: Selective deafness

              "The point is that when the battery dies, the consumer can source a new one and install it themselves."

              You try finding a replacement battery that isn't the cheapest crap made in China and holds a reasonable amount of power for a reasonable amount of time. They are admittedly cheap.

          2. Vector
            Angel

            Re: Selective deafness

            "For a portable device, less is more."

            Unless you're talking about price...

        5. DrBobK

          Re: Selective deafness

          Bollocks. Here I sit with an enormous Windows box with a rather good Nvidia GTX 2080 Ti running an HTC Vive Pro Eye that I program with C# in Unity and next to that some HP dual Xeon server running Linux in which I develop (not use, develop) multispectral physics-based raytracers for vision research. But I'm typing this on a MacBook Pro because that's what I like using an an office machine. So piss off with your "People who buy Apple computers are either not IT literate or idiots, no ifs buts or maybes". Idiot.

          1. Eeep !

            Re: Selective deafness

            What is it that makes it that makes the MacBook Pro preferable to the other systems you have access to? Genuinely interested.

            1. DrBobK

              Re: Selective deafness

              Partially it is down to IT service management policies where I work. If you use a windows machine for office stuff it ends up being centrally managed which mean you lose admin rights. If you have a Mac none of this happens. I used to work with Macs in the late 1980s and came to hate them, but I thought I'd try try giving them another go a few years ago because the admin rights business was so frustrating. The terrible instabilities of MacOS 7.5.3 etc. from days gone by were no more. Everything worked without a hitch. I could run enormous displays and use a nice keyboard at work (and even run a nice graphics card in an eGPU) through a dock and then take the Macbook home by just unplugging a single Thunderbolt 3 cable. I could have set all this up from Windows but I suspect it would have been harder to do. So, all in all, I don't think Macs are leaps ahead of Windows, but they are easy to use and once I'd made the switch I liked the experience.

      2. Marcus Fil

        Re: Selective deafness

        “ -removable/replaceable battery” - usbc battery.

        “ upgradeable RAM” - likely to buy a new machine before you need to do that.

        “ ditto SSD” - thunderbolt external disk.

        “ -useful number of ports” - usbc/thunderbolt dock. These ports are infinitely more useful, plug in the right cable you have the port, be that hdmi, power, 10Gb ethernet, sdcard, whatever you need at the time.

        So why, for the incredibly stupid price Apple charges for the new laptop, does it not include a special branded "Apple Twat" rucksack in which to carry all the useful stuff that used to be fitted inside their previous generation of laptops?

        1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

          Re: Selective deafness

          "for the incredibly stupid price Apple charges for the new laptop"

          Show me where you can get the same spec & quality for substantially less. And no cheating by claiming that your plastic PoS is the 'same' because it happens to have the same processor.

          1. TonyJ Silver badge

            Re: Selective deafness

            Show me where you can get the same spec & quality for substantially less. And no cheating by claiming that your plastic PoS is the 'same' because it happens to have the same processor.

            Erm take a look at PC Specialist. Some of the Clevo and Tong Fang based chassis are aluminium. I would concede they don't look as attractive as a MBP but they match your spec, price and quality argument.

            1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

              Re: Selective deafness

              Just got on the PC Specialist website, configured a Defiance XS Pro workstation - as close to like-for-like as I could get to the 16" MBP. Core i7/16GB/500GB to match the MBP, it comes out at £2.175 inc VAT - and that's with a 4-cell battery, 15.6" instead of 16" screen, twice the thickness and half the battery life for just under £225 savings. Plastic chassis as well.

              I'd be perfectly prepared to accept Apple are expensive, but they're nowhere NEAR as expensive (comparing apples to - ahem - Apples) as people think.

              1. TonyJ Silver badge

                Re: Selective deafness

                Recoil GTX - Aluminium chassis with a mechanical keyboard AND a Windows 10 CAL (good saving if you don't need one - plenty of people in the forums have success with various Linux distros).

                This is around £1,500 cheaper than the Apple. I am sure there are faster components that could be added (RAM and SSD for example) but still...

                Oh and this particular chassis has spac for 2 more M2 SSD's, upgradable RAM, a replaceable battery etc etc etc.

                The Defiance really is one of their more expensive models (I know, I bought a top of the range Defiance II in 2015 to replace the 2011 MBP that is still going strong today)

                Chassis & Display

                Recoil Series: 15.6" Matte Full HD IPS 144Hz 72% NTSC LED Widescreen (1920x1080)

                Processor (CPU)

                Intel® Core™ i7 Six Core Processor 9750H (2.6GHz, 4.5GHz Turbo)

                Memory (RAM)

                16GB Corsair 2133MHz SODIMM DDR4 (1 x 16GB)

                Graphics Card

                NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 1660 Ti - 6.0GB GDDR6 Video RAM - DirectX® 12.1

                1st Storage Drive

                480GB ADATA SU630 2.5" SSD, SATA 6 Gb (520MB/R, 450MB/W)

                Memory Card Reader

                Integrated 2 in 1 Memory Card Reader (SD, MMC)

                AC Adaptor

                1 x 180W AC Adaptor

                Power Cable

                1 x 1 Metre Cloverleaf UK Power Cable

                Battery

                Recoil II Series 46WH Lithium Ion Battery

                Thermal Paste

                STANDARD THERMAL PASTE FOR SUFFICIENT COOLING

                Sound Card

                2 Channel High Def. Audio + SoundBlaster™ Cinema

                Bluetooth & Wireless

                GIGABIT LAN & WIRELESS INTEL® AC-9260 M.2 (1.73Gbps, 802.11AC) +BT 5.0

                USB/Thunderbolt Options

                1 x USB 3.1 PORT (Type C) + 2 x USB 3.1 PORTS + 1 x USB 2.0 PORT

                Keyboard Language

                PER-KEY RGB BACKLIT UK MECHANICAL KEYBOARD

                Operating System

                Windows 10 Home 64 Bit - inc. Single Licence [KUK-00001]

                Operating System Language

                United Kingdom - English Language

                Windows Recovery Media

                Windows 10 Multi-Language Recovery Image - Unlimited Downloads from Online Account

                Office Software

                FREE 30 Day Trial of Microsoft® Office® 365 (Operating System Required)

                Anti-Virus

                BullGuard™ Internet Security - Free 90 Day License inc. Gamer Mode

                Browser

                Microsoft® Edge (Windows 10 Only)

                Notebook Mouse

                INTEGRATED 2 BUTTON TOUCHPAD MOUSE

                Webcam

                INTEGRATED 1MP HD WEBCAM

                Warranty

                3 Year Standard Warranty (1 Month Collect & Return, 1 Year Parts, 3 Year Labour)

                Chassis

                TongFang GK5CP6Z (6GB GTX-1660 Ti, i7-9750H, 144Hz)

                Delivery

                STANDARD INSURED DELIVERY TO UK MAINLAND (MON-FRI)

                Build Time

                Standard Build - Approximately 4 to 6 working days

                Price: £1,215.00 including VAT and Delivery

                Unique URL to re-configure: https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-configurations/recoil-III-gtx-15/7Ef8bm!MM6/

                1. mankymanningBS

                  Re: Selective deafness

                  Less than half the battery capacity, a low res screen, slower ram and storage which is about a quarter of the speed if not less than what you are comparing too. It might well represent great value for money and give much more performance per £ in your opinion but comparable it is not.

                2. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                  Re: Selective deafness

                  @TonyJ

                  The Recoil GTX may be a good laptop but is not an equivalent to the 16" MBP. It's also not £1,500 cheaper than the MBP.

          2. LeedsMonkey

            Re: Selective deafness

            Thinkpad X1 Carbon, Dell XPS

            1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

              Re: Selective deafness

              Like for like, the X1 Carbon and Dell XPS cost the same as Apple. And you can’t get them with 16” screens.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Selective deafness

          You may not have noticed but most IT professionals already have a bag full of various cables. Nothing has changed in that regard.

      3. TonyJ Silver badge

        Re: Selective deafness

        “ -removable/replaceable battery” - usbc battery.

        Well sure why not. I mean a) carry yet something else around with you and b) when the battery degrades to the point it doesn't hold a charge, the laptop becomes less than useful.

        “ upgradeable RAM” - likely to buy a new machine before you need to do that.

        Utter bollocks. I bought a MacBook Pro in late 2011. It was an off the shelf model because I wasn't in a position to wait for a customised one. Because it had to run various VM's etc, the first two things I did were upgrade the RAM to the maximum 16GB it would take (non-Apple, but by the same manufacturer [Hynix, if I recall correctly] and at literall 1/4 of the price of Apple parts. The second thing I did...

        “ ditto SSD” - thunderbolt external disk.

        ...was to remove the superdrive and put the HDD in its place, followed by putting in an SSD (again, booting multple demo / lab VMs benefits hugely from even a slow SSD. But yeah, let us carry yet another piece of kit around. You must have a big old bag, or are you purposefully fogetting that laptops tend to be carried around?

        “ -useful number of ports” - usbc/thunderbolt dock. These ports are infinitely more useful, plug in the right cable you have the port, be that hdmi, power, 10Gb ethernet, sdcard, whatever you need at the time.

        Aaaannddd again with the buy and carry extra kit. Fuck off. I want a laptop I can plug a LAN cable into, for example, or one I can plug a mouse and maybe a USB stick in at the same time.

        Currently models have been around for only 3 years.

        And the reason I personally never upgraded the 2011 one was because shortly after (2012/13) Apple began soldering everything onto the board. So like the rest of your arguments, you are wrong.

        Quit the bullshit anti apple rant because you cannot move on from old inferior technology.

        Not like your "just buy a shit load of extra kit to carry rant except yours is actually full of bullshit and innacuracies to spin it to agree with your own twisted pro-Apple narrative.

        I LOVED my 2011 MBP. It was, as I've said before, one of the best Windows laptops I've ever owned. The hardware was simply sublime, but just because your use cases don't agree with others' it doesn't automatically invalidate the other ones.

        1. jeffty

          Re: Selective deafness

          I'm in the same boat as TonyJ and Hans 1.

          Bought a 2012 MBP new with 4GB RAM and a 500GB HDD, as my software/storage needs have expanded, I've upgraded it to 16Gb RAM, 2TB SSD and 3TB HDD (by replacing the optical drive). A 7 year old laptop still happily chugs along running today's workloads as a result. Original battery still working great, but I can easily swap it out when it fails. There's a reason why this model still sells for £500-700 on ebay used - because it's easily repairable and upgradeable. Also, I can plug in all of my peripherals in on the move without needing a sea of fecking stupid dongles (SD slot, USB ports, NIC, etc).

          Whoever is suggesting you carry round external batteries, storage and a dock is an idiot. I don't have to do that with my 7-year old laptop (or a model any of Apples competitors), why should I have to do that just for the Apple equivalent? Also, if I'm blowing £2500+ on a laptop I'd expect it to meet my needs out the box, not need a second bag of peripherals to make up for it's hardware limitations on the move.

          Given the physical dimensions of RAM/PCIE storage, there's no reason why these have to be soldered/glued in on the new model other than Apple making a killing from forcing you to pay for both upfront. It's certainly not a devotion to a slimeline device.

          I'd have no problem with a Macbook Pro that's slightly thicker and heavier if it was easily serviceable and had all the connectivity I needed. Hell, I'd actually pay more. But until they reach that point, I'll pass.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Selective deafness

            Another in this boat. I bought one of the late 2009 Macbooks, and it was an absolutely solid daily driver. Used it throughout university switching regularly between OSX and Windows in Bootcamp (depending on needs), and then running OSX doing front-end dev as my main computer for a few years full-time. HDD started to chug along around 2014 so bought an SSD replacement, which gave it a new lease of life. Replaced the battery around 2016, and despite being a bit slow by this stage it was a reliable backup machine for light work on-the-go.

            Unfortunately, in 2017, it finally kicked the bucket. The first batch of refreshed 2009 Macbooks had issues with the motherboards. I thought I had been lucky and got one without any issues, but in 2017 I finally switched it off in the evening, and it never switched back on again.

            It lasted 8 years of regular abuse though - made possible by the fact that I could replace the old HDD when it wore down to a glacial stutter; upgrade the RAM (2GB was the baseline at the time); and replace the battery when, after several years of use, it was lasting about 10-15 minutes on a full charge. Each time I replaced a part, it got a new lease of life and lasted another few years' use.

            Last year I had a meeting with a graphic designer - they drew out their bag the same model Macbook (not their main dev machine - they use it for meetings on-the-go). Theirs is still going strong, and will likely top a decade of use.

            £2500 for a device of the specs Apple provide isn't bad value for money (and don't get me wrong, if I was rich I would buy one without question). It's even good value for the specs you get *on paper*. The problem is, if your SSD corrupts in 5 years time, you're out of pocket. If your battery wears down after 5 years of heavy use, you're tied to a charger. And using this device as a main development machine (as it's intended to be) it'll likely be hammered a lot, and parts will wear down quicker.

            The lifespan of this product is just inherently more capped than older machines, and peripherals don't extend the lifespan of a product like replacement parts do - peripherals are more akin to life support.

            £2500 is good value if the laptop lasts, but with parts being non-replaceble you're taking a risk, and inherently reducing the average lifespan of a product. And being unable to update means that even if it does last, in 4-5 years you will likely be seeking a new device anyway, shooting that price even higher. Suddenly, if you're not lcuky, that 'good value' becomes somewhat a more questionable claim.

            Simply put, the newer Macbooks are nice machines, but I can't imagine the baseline models being devices that people would consider reliable daily drivers a decade from now. In fact, I should imagine there will be a lot more 2012-13 Macbook Pros in regular use in 2022-23 than current Macbook Pros come 2029. That in itself is a sign that there is a problem.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Selective deafness

          If you want a replaceable battery you are already carrying it dumbarse.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Selective deafness

            Who carries around replacement batteries rather than - you know - buying and fitting a new battery to replace an older one when it loses charge. Or do you also buy 2 pairs of trainers whenever you go shoe shopping, and carry the second pair at all times for when your first pair eventually gets a hole in the soles?

      4. batfink Silver badge

        Re: Selective deafness

        So, what you're saying is that in order for your expensive laptop to be sensibly usable, you need to purchase and lug around all manner of extra crap?

        Are you sure that you've grasped this newfangled idea of "portable"?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Selective deafness

          Lug around the exact same amount of kit as always.

      5. Unicornpiss Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: Selective deafness

        Big MEH! to Apple. For the price you could have an Alienware with better specs and a lot of change left over for a monitor, an evening out, and perhaps a car payment. The Alienware looks cooler too. And has a better warranty. If you don't like Win 10, you could dual boot or put your favorite flavor of Linux on it. If you must have Apple's OS, you might still have enough money left over for a couple of therapy sessions..

      6. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Selective deafness

        “ -useful number of ports” - usbc/thunderbolt dock. These ports are infinitely more useful, plug in the right cable you have the port, be that hdmi, power, 10Gb ethernet, sdcard, whatever you need at the time.

        Yes, but not at the same time!

        1. gnasher729 Silver badge

          Re: Selective deafness

          "Yes, but not at the same time!"

          Absolutely at the same time. That's when you have a 12 port hub that connects to the computer at 40 Gbit/second. You can get a dozen things connected at the same time.

      7. Dave K Silver badge

        Re: Selective deafness

        It's not just laptops, their other machines have gone down this route as well. I've had a couple of Mac Minis in the past, but the most recent time I replaced mine? I bought a NUC instead.

        My previous Mac Minis have both had RAM/HDD upgrades to prolong their life. Sure they eventually ran out of steam and were replaced, but why are you against prolonging the life of computers and keeping them out of landfill for a bit longer? Back in the days of OSX Tiger, 1-2GB of RAM was plenty. Move on to Snow Leopard and dual boot with Windows 7, 4GB became a necessity. With older Mac Minis, this was fairly straight forward.

    3. Roopee
      Thumb Up

      Re: Selective deafness

      Really wish I could give you many more upvotes!

      I'm a technician, not a dev, but I do have quite a few Apple devices, and apart from my iPhone SE none is newer than my thoroughly upgraded and very nice-to-use 2010 MBP, for exactly the reasons you give and the fact that I have more sense than money...

    4. 1752

      Re: Selective deafness

      Thinking the same about laptops. Twas 5 years ago could buy a laptop that I could upgrade the memory and disk on and keep it going (Windows laptop cheaper end). Now nothing and fixed.

    5. SteveK

      Re: Selective deafness

      I agree on the obsession with thinner/lighter. Now, on a laptop that does make some degree of sense and I can see that many people appreciate that when travelling (with the trade-off of having to carry a pile of adapters and accessories - or more likely in my experience turning up at their destination without any chargers, adapters etc and expecting that we have a full set of all of these things for them to borrow. But that's a different rant)

      But it doesn't make sense on desktop machines. Going on about how the iMac is a couple of mm thinner after removing the optical drive etc. It's a desktop, it's not intended to be carried around, so does it really matter? I'd prefer it to have the functionality, expandability and repairability than be thankful that it's 100g lighter on the one occasion that it needed to be moved across the room.

    6. LeedsMonkey

      Re: Selective deafness

      Couldn't agree more. All the glossy reviewers seem to miss the point this is a 3k+ laptop being touted as a mobile workstation yet it has no ports and will be a pig to maintain if anything breaks. Where's the onsite warranty option Apple? I get this might not be a free option like it is with some vendors, but at least allow me to buy this rather than having to go see a 'Genius'.

      Apple need a separate 'Pro' division to the one that makes all the itoys. Most people who buy a computer (laptop or desktop) for work don't care so much about looks. Functionality, performance and reliability are much more important. If Apple would have made a pig-ugly laptop, but one with loads of useful I/O, user upgradeable RAM and storage, and pro maintenance I would buy one. Instead I'll be getting a Thinkpad.

      1. really_adf

        Re: Selective deafness

        Most people who buy a computer (laptop or desktop) for work don't care so much about looks.

        I'm not sure about "most"; I think it depends on whether you want to actually do work on it or because you are a superficial twat, eg many in sales, marketing and management.

    7. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

      Re: Selective deafness

      While they have this fanatical obsession with THINNER THINNER THINNER

      This new model is thicker than the one it replaces..

      (It's essentially the same size, but thinner screen bezels means they can fit a slightly bigger screen. And it's physically thicker - maybe going back to the "built like a tank" vibe of the old 17" model)

    8. antonyh

      Re: Selective deafness

      This.

      I have a Dell XPS15 that was a full grand cheaper than the equivalent MacBook Pro, and yet has all the sockets (USB-A, SD card, and so on. It has a power light that I can see when it's closed. It has a battery status button. It's user-serviceable for upgrades. It has a high resolution screen with a wide colour gamut. Keyboard is ok, would like more travel not less (1mm is too shallow). It's way better value. Even if price wasn't a consideration, I'd still chose the Dell over the Apple machine.

      OSX/MacOS is dead to me, it's not worth a £1000 extra per machine, and there's so little I want to run that doesn't have viable alternatives on Windows/Linux anyway that I don't miss it (there's just one app I miss, I'll cope).

      Don't get me wrong, I still use my Macs, but they all date from 2008-2009 - Mac Pro from that era is still a beast of a machine and is only limited by virtue of being stuck on OSX 10.11. I still use PowerPC machines too. Modern Apple has lost it's mojo.

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: Selective deafness

        @Anthonyh ” I have a Dell XPS15 that was a full grand cheaper than the equivalent MacBook Pro“

        The equivalent hardware-spec XPS15 is £1,699. Put Office on it to match Apple’s bundled productivity suite and that rises to £2,048, but that’s a choice - much like do you want an OS that’s free because you’re the product, one that doesn’t play well with others, or one that you pay for in the purchase price. More concerning on the Dell are the reports of thermal throttling, quality issues and a screen that hammers the battery - although we’ll have to wait and see what the verdict is on the MBP in this regard before passing judgement - it might be just as bad.

    9. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: Selective deafness

      "-useful number of ports"

      Four USB-C ports. If you need something else, I found a cheap little hub that provides 2xUSB 3.0, 2xUSB 2.0, HDMI, VGA, SD card reader, Ethernet adapter, phone charger (because USB-C supplies power) and I've forgotten some things because it had 12 ports. You can use four of those. If you want the worlds only laptop with ten mice (or mouses), you plug a 10 port USB hub into one of the USB 2.0 ports.

    10. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Selective deafness

      I too loved the Apple kit but Sony, DELL, Lenovo, MS all learned from Apple that Aunt Doris and Uncle Jim do not need all that tech on a laptop they use to talk to little Jenny at Uni via Skype and shop on Amazon. Doris doesn't need a laptop to have 6 USB ports, 2 HDMI ports, removable batteries and SSDs, they'll never use them or replace parts like we techies might.

      So Sony, et all cut all that stuff out, realised they could shrink their laptops smaller than even Apple's and they'll shift like hot cakes. Doris and Jim couldn't care less if it's OSX or Windows, they don't really care what logo is on the lid, so long as Skype, Firefox/Chrome, Word and Excel run, they're happy as pigs in wotnot!

      Now the others have cottened on to how Apple's game works, unless you must have that white fruity logo on th top of your laptop lid, you can buy kit that's almost identical in spec but 1/2 price of the Apple kit. The other company's tech caught up, so I dumped my old Apple kit onto rellies once it was due for replacement and simply bought kit from the other vendors.

      Apple is a status symbol, some need that psychological safety net to make them feel good, all power to them. Most of us thoguh don't give a monkey's wotnot, we simply have stuff to do and so long as the gadgets do that then we don't really care who made said gadget.

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: Selective deafness

        ” unless you must have that white fruity logo on th top of your laptop lid, you can buy kit that's almost identical in spec but 1/2 price of the Apple kit.“

        No you can’t.

    11. Maximum Delfango
      Boffin

      Let me summarise the preceding 287 posts...

      1. I love Apple and your laptop smells of poo and wee.

      2. No yours does.

      3. No, yours smells of your Mum's poo and your Dad's wee on toast.

      4. No yours does.

      5. So can't we just get the machines that suit us in terms of specs and price then, and agree to differ?

      6. Oh Mr Poo-face is speaking again! Poo!

  4. Allonymous Coward
    Devil

    The best notebook keyboard ever

    Every - EVERY - Apple laptop keyboard I've ever used has offered about the same tactile reward as typing in cat excrement.

    I won't hold my breath for this one. I might, however, hold my nose.

    1. Mike Moyle Silver badge

      Re: The best notebook keyboard ever

      "Every - EVERY - Apple laptop keyboard I've ever used has offered about the same tactile reward as typing in cat excrement."

      Morbid curiosity ALMOST tempts me to ask how you would possibly know to make this particular comparison, but "discretion being the better part...", etc., etc.

      1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: Cat Excrement

        Indeed. He is more than welcome to try out the droppings on my front door mat (fresh this morning) in order to make an objective comparison.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The best notebook keyboard ever

        Possibly IT callout that really really does not need to make it to Regs weekly column.

      3. Allonymous Coward

        Re: The best notebook keyboard ever

        Well, hyperbole innit.

        Though now I think of it, I did stick my hand in some fresh moggy droppings the other day. Long and unpleasant story. Suffice to say, it was literally shit.

        In contrast, the keyboard on my workplace-enforced MacBook Pro is only figuratively shit. At least as far as I'm aware. But this has been the case for every Apple laptop I've used since about 2008.

  5. Gordon 10 Silver badge

    But have they fixed

    The stupid design decision to run on the full fat graphics every time you connect another display?

    My 2018 15" has overall the worst battery life of any Mac I have owned. So gutted I went for more cores (6) over the 13.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: But have they fixed

      If you have another display chances are there is a fucking power socket near by as well. Plug into it, problem solved.

      1. Gordon 10 Silver badge

        Re: But have they fixed

        It’s a £2.5k portable computer with a claimed 10+ hr battery life. If I charge it in the morning why shouldn't it last all day - my 6 year old Macbook Air does as does the MBP 13.

        Its a design flaw in the MBP 15. Maybe not the biggest but certainly a stupid oversight.

    2. AndyMulhearn

      Re: But have they fixed

      The stupid design decision to run on the full fat graphics every time you connect another display?

      Aaah, thank you for that - have a virtual beer. You've just explained why the battery life on my work MBP - the same model - is so piss poor when driving a TV for stuff. An hour of use can see the battery drop 40%. And it's also why so many people see crap behaviour from identical kit when resuming with external screens attached.

      1. gnasher729 Silver badge

        Re: But have they fixed

        When the MacBook is already plugged in - TV or external monitor - why would you not connect it to a charger?

    3. mankymanningBS

      Re: But have they fixed

      This is putting me off as well, it has been like this for years and years. My old 2013 15" did the same. They should allow the Intel built in graphics to drive external monitors if necessary. Also cuts down on heat.

  6. Mage Silver badge
    Coffee/keyboard

    Hmm.

    Every computer I've used since 1979 had a good keyboard. Except the Apple II, which was the last I personally owned, but I had the misfortune to fix the "screen on half a ball models" for some people.

    Every laptop I've ever had, first about 1998, has had an Escape key. HP, Dell, Lenovo full laptops, and various netbooks.

    Every computer I've had since 1992 was great to type on. I also use a real mouse.

    It seems extremely expensive.

  7. JDX Gold badge

    I like the spec - 1Tb SSD is nice - but until I'm buying it with someone else's money I'll pass!

    1. Hans 1 Silver badge
      Joke

      I's told by Boris' friends that we had ran out of someone else's money and that that's why we had to sell off the industry, transportation, pensions etc to the needy greedy!

    2. DiViDeD Silver badge

      I have 2 x internal Samsung ECO SSDs in my gaming rig. 6 Gb/s SATA, cost me about $500 AU total, and not an Apple Logo in sight.

      And when the time comes, I can swap em out for whatever the future brings.

    3. cb7

      I bought a 1TB SSD yesterday to slap into my son's Xbox One for the princely sum of £88.98 with free next day shipping. Yes, it's SATA and not PCI-E, but some NVMe drives are available at roughly the same price as well now.

      A few years back, I recall Apple charging £400 to go from 128GB to 256GB on one of their devices. When the retail price differential on 128GB was around £50 if that. That's when I realised what a rip off Apple gear was. And looks like still is.

  8. Wibble

    Not cheap, but...

    It's an upgrade over the outgoing version without an additional gouging for more money. So for the same price you get 64Gb of ram and and 'better' graphics card. The previous keyboard was awful for touch typing as there was no feel to it. They've also sorted out the cursor keys - back to the inverted T format.

    However, buying an additional power brick will need you to fork out for another cable on top of that. And a load of dongles.

    How about the £200 leather case for it!

  9. TheOldBear

    I'll give it a look in a year or two, once refurbished units are common.

    1. Hans 1 Silver badge
      Happy

      Yeahhhh, get one just before the internal storage fails ... ;-)

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sigh

    "In the UK, swap dollars for pounds, such is Apple's magical currency conversion rate"

    Sigh. Or convert dollars to pounds using a reasonable estimate that will hold for the medium term and add VAT.

    Much like the Samsung Galaxy S10 is $799 or £799.

    1. Joe W Silver badge

      Re: Sigh

      Yes. People do seem to forget that (a lot)

      1. aks Bronze badge

        Re: Sigh

        Double sigh. Journalists seem to forget that a lot. 'tain't rocket science.

    2. DiViDeD Silver badge

      Re: Samsung Galaxy S10 is $799 or £799

      Deeper Sigh.

      Funny that, since in Arsetrailer they always use the correct currency exchange (currently defines as market rate plus a bit more ... bit more ... higher ... there you go), making the Galaxy S10 an eye watering $2,199 here (JB Hifi - lower prices? We've heard of them)

    3. aks Bronze badge

      Re: Sigh

      USA prices are always quoted without sales tax as that varies from place to place. State plus local sales taxes range from zero to 13.5%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_States

    4. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: Sigh

      Also to remember: Better consumer protection laws, which means Apple (and Samsung as well) will have to pay to replace failing products in the UK that they wouldn't have to pay for in the USA. Doesn't come for free.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    More importantly...

    How will this perform in my local brewhaus? I'm not talking about speed of course, the internet on my iPhone is pretty rad, but if I'm imbibing God's dark fluid in my venerable House of Bean, then the channel that delivers my daily social must be as on-point as my fixie. Can any of you bro's share the words on this?

    1. Steve K Silver badge

      Re: More importantly...

      Pardon?

    2. Gordon 10 Silver badge

      Re: More importantly...

      Do not fear sir! It will make you look as hip as your unfeasibly waxed moustache does, it will attracts likes and followers aplenty, and shower much VC cash upon your glorious endeavours.

      1. Korev Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: More importantly...

        I'm just off to get my seventeenth sleeve tattoo; I'll 'Gram it later

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: More importantly...

          We call it 'the righteous ink' now, my friend.

    3. jonathan keith Silver badge

      Re: More importantly...

      You reminded me that I'd forgotten this:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVmmYMwFj1I

      so thanks for that!

    4. batfink Silver badge

      Re: More importantly...

      On-pointedness guaranteed with this one bro.

      However, only if you leave behind the pile of external add-ons that you'll need with it. All that extra gear on the table isn't going to leave you any room for your brew.

  12. The humble print monkey
    Coffee/keyboard

    Trade in

    Just tried the up to £800 trade in wizard. Entered serial number for old school cheese grater mac pro.

    Confligurator asks what model - imac, air etc.

    Select late 2010 mac pro.

    Offers a list of machines, none of whose processors matches a dual hex 3.33

    Then it asks if the power adapter is included.

    Does it boot?

    Is the machine bulging?

    Select highest spec processor.

    Confiscator says it's worth eighty quid, as a trade in against a four grand machine (I aint paying that much for that much on board storage).

    Sod that.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Trade in

      "Trade in" discount on 10 year old hardware, is a "regular customer discount" only... but just checking you were one.

      No real value in the materials your giving in 99% of the time.

      1. katrinab Silver badge

        Re: Trade in

        My MacBook sells on eBay for about £200, way more than what Apple offer as part exchange. Apple products do tend to hold they value better than most.

        Having said that, my Proliant Microserver has held its value better than anything else. Bought it in 2013 for £160. I could sell it on eBay now for £200.

        1. TonyJ Silver badge

          Re: Trade in

          Having said that, my Proliant Microserver has held its value better than anything else. Bought it in 2013 for £160. I could sell it on eBay now for £200.

          I think this is because HP have lost the plot with their Microserver range.

          I bought a Gen8 (I think it was) in 2016. After cash back it cost me £80. Ok, it had no drives but it was £80 including an iLO4.

          When I checked the Gen10 about a year or so ago they were averaging somewhere between £400 and £500.

          You could buy a more traditional mini tower with much greater performance for the same or even less.

          1. jeffty

            Re: Trade in

            Yep, it's HP losing the plot.

            With the Gen8, you could swap out the Celeron/Pentium CPU for a low-power Xeon, slap ESXi/KVM on it and have a decent low powered server. It also had an iLO so you could stick it somewhere in the house like a cupboard and remote in when it went wrong. HP also had some decent cashback offers on them so you never paid more than £200 or so. It was a cracking little box at a steal.

            Gen10 has a soldered down low-powered AMD dual-core Opteron that is slower than a Gen8 rocking a Xeon. No iLO functionality, no HP cashback discounts, no included HDD.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Trade in

          Thanks for the downvote? Or whoever did...

          Yes, on Ebay, with people willing to use the laptop, and self manage/service is (clean it with a rag ;) ) it's worth £200.

          But for Apple, that would be the cost to them just to manage it in their inventory, thus they give you a base discount, and probably scrap the laptop for materials at the least, or send it off to a "computer recycler" at the most.

          1. katrinab Silver badge
            Unhappy

            Re: Trade in

            I didn't downvote your original comment, though I have downvoted this one.

            1. Eeep !

              Re: Trade in

              Want to explain the reason for downvote? I don't understand your reasoning - enlighten me.

        3. aks Bronze badge

          Re: Trade in

          On looking in eBay, I'm pleasantly surprised to find that my Alienware M11X is worth about the same as I paid for it as a 3-year old second-hand machine. That was about 5 years ago. A very solid performer in every way.

  13. DougS Silver badge

    Credit this to Jony Ivy's departure

    Seems to have helped Apple listen to customers needs/complaints instead of putting design ahead of them. The iPhone 11 gained a fraction of a mm in thickness to accommodate a battery that puts it at the top of the list of all phones in battery life (per Anandtech's testing) and this new Macbook gained a mm of thickness to accommodate not only a larger battery (at the maximum size the FAA will allow you to fly with) but also a return to the old keyboard and they added back the escape key people had loudly missed.

    I like Ivy's designs, but without Jobs around to moderate him he start taking things too far, and Apple's laptops suffered for it over the last few years. Now that Ivy is just an advisor to Apple, he no longer has the power to force compromises to get that extra bit of thinness.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Credit this to Jony Ivy's departure

      "and they added back the escape key people had loudly missed"

      ... but did they put the " and @ back on th ekeys where they are meant to be on a UK keyboard! My work give me a macbook but I only ever use it via an external keyboard with a correct UK layout (though have to use Karabiner to fully map all the keys correctly as MacOS on its own appears to resolutely ignore or get wrong another couple of keys that differ between Apple and ISO's definition of a UK keyboard) so to some extent have protected myself from this!

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    >In the UK, swap dollars for pounds, such is Apple's magical currency conversion rate

    Otherwise known as the actual currency conversion rate.

    The monthly average exchange rate between GBP and USD for the last six months ranges between a high of 1.28 and a depressing low of 1.21. Factor in that we are required to include 20% VAT in the headline price and this represents a markup of somewhere between 0.83% and 6%. Given the ludicrous instability in the pound in these days of Brexit-induced insanity, I'm frankly astonished the markup is that low.

  15. TiredNConfused80

    Top Spec...

    ...£6k for a f'ing laptop!!????!?!?! one etc...

    1. katrinab Silver badge

      Re: Top Spec...

      For an i9 9980HK, 64GB RAM, 8TB SSD.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    a modest family holiday or a second hand car.

    cause I've got nothing useful to say and can't be bothered to come up with more fanboihate, I'll just say that, against the $2,799, my modest family holiday this year is going to cost (quick conversion), about half that, around $1.5K tops. But then, 2nd hand car is... close, just under $2,5K, already almost 20 years old and going strong. There, my valuable contribution :)

  17. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

    Horses for arses

    I use a 7 year old Macbook Pro and a 5 year old Lenovo and I can honestly say that whilst Windows 10 is improving, the actual experience of using a Mac is much more satisfying. I agree it's not for everyone, but for my work it's just fine.

    However

    I paid very little for this Macbook a few years ago (£0 actually), and being in IT, I've maxed out all possible upgrades to it. Now I find myself in a quandary. Although it holds its own and runs fast enough most of the time, it is getting slower in day to day use. It is probably not going to take next year's MacOS and the lack of screen resolution is getting to me (we do a lot of remote support, so having a higher resolution than most remote machines would help). When it comes time to consider an upgrade, there is no way on earth I'd be able to justify spending £1000 let alone £2700 on a Mac. I'll have to buy a used one. But the used ones are expensive too. The good ones anyway. It's just not worth it. We can buy an excellent used windows laptop for well under a grand.

    Just what is the target market for a machine that costs that much? If it's people with just a lot of money, they don't need that spec of machine. If it's professionals, they'd be in the know and can get cheaper windows machines. Clearly Apple aren't idiots - these machines do sell. So are there that many people with enough money to burn that it makes no difference to them? Horses for courses I suppose

    1. katrinab Silver badge

      Re: Horses for arses

      High second-hand prices means the total cost of ownership isn't so high.

    2. confused and dazed

      Re: Horses for arses

      People with a lot of money may need those specs or may not. It could be that they just like their Apple devices and are prepared to pay for that. It's strange to me that nobody seems to bat an eyelid at someone who spends a lot on a car when a Dacia Duster or equivalent would also just get you there .... I spend more time on computers (PC's, Macs, Linux) than I do in the car ...

      my 2p

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Horses for arses

        I tested a Dacia and when the Dacia was spec’d up to something close to the equipment on an established brand (it couldn’t match it because it didn’t offer all the kit) then it wasn’t much cheaper. When a PCP deal was applied the Dacia became more expensive because of the lower retained value. So there is a reason that everybody doesn’t buy a Duster and it’s not just brand snobbery.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    2400 bucks ...

    for an escape key. Ain't life grand in Appleland ?

    And yes, config is not too impressive.

  19. tiggity Silver badge

    awesome speakers

    Who would ask for that except inconsiderate twats?

    If you are "on the move" headphones better option as good sound quality, and if you are e.g. on a train or other public place then you do not want to be playing music out loud and disturbing other people (certainly not on the trains I travel on as it would be a shame if my coffee accidentally spilt on a loud music playing laptop)

    If you are using the laptop in a more static location then, if you want decent sound, then why not connect it up to your hifi system/ or at the very least some decent external speakers?

  20. PeeKay

    Previously, with Apple

    "Our pro customers tell us they want their next MacBook Pro to have..."

    Thing is, they already had an ESC key before Apple took it away. Guess the increased price reflects the 'additional' key...

  21. andy 103
    Thumb Down

    Too expensive

    I've got a 2015 Macbook Air. I've never upgraded anything in it and paid about £750 for it.

    If I buy a machine that costs 2 grand - which for me is unlikely as I can't afford to - it had better be upgradable and not considered a disposable item.

    For me this is a no brainer. My existing Macbook is good enough for my needs. If I were to upgrade to anything it would probably have to be a PC laptop now as the prices of all Apple's hardware have gone up to stupid money. I like my Mac though, so keeping the one I've got is what I'll be doing.

    Also posted on another story a few weeks back saying I was miffed after buying an iPhone XR outright for £749 in an Apple store...only for Apple to offer me £250 - literally a few months later - when the 11 came out . If that's how they treat their own products and customers, they can do one.

    1. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: Too expensive

      "If I buy a machine that costs 2 grand - which for me is unlikely as I can't afford to - it had better be upgradable and not considered a disposable item."

      But it's easily upgradeable.

      Step 1: Make a backup. Step 2: Wipe the machine, then install the latest OS. Step 3: Put it on eBay. Step 4: Use the money towards a new machine.

      Instead of upgrading say a five year old laptop, and ending up with a slightly better five year old laptop, you now have a new one.

      Or wait three months, and 15" MacBook Pro's will appear as "refurbished" (in reality brand new), at a decent price.

  22. confused and dazed
    WTF?

    Stupid ... Moron .. etc etc

    What is it with the IT community that there is a tendency to consider anyone who disagrees with you to be an idiot.

    Could they not just have different priorities to you ?? .... don't want to seem like a big jessie , but all this Apple bashing gets on my wick.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Stupid ... Moron .. etc etc

      >What is it with the IT community that there is a tendency to consider anyone who disagrees with you to be an idiot.

      I think it comes from working in a field where 95% of the work is down to user error.

    2. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: Stupid ... Moron .. etc etc

      Have you met many IT people? See Jeff Albertson,

  23. Alister Silver badge

    What's in a name?

    Apple’s senior director of Mac and iPad product marketing, Tom Boger.

    pronounced "bodger"?

  24. N2 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Never mind

    Phil Schiller will inform every aspiring scholar their future won't be successful without one.

    Muppet.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ooo!

    Apple have invented the Escape key on a keyboard. Expect the patent application imminently.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Its an 'Apple' ESC key ..... Stupid !!!

      "Apple have invented the Escape key on a keyboard. Expect the patent application imminently."

      You have missed the genius of it !!!

      This is an 'Apple' ESC key !!!

      The clever part is that it looks just like a 'normal' ESC key, operates just like a 'normal' ESC key *but* includes all the extra Apple goodness for 'Free*'.

      * 'Free' meaning $1000 in AppleSpeak as per usual. :)

  26. carl0s

    I don't like Apple laptops because:

    They genuinely have a tendency to suffer expensive irreparable* failures.

    The screens don't tilt back to a useful degree.

    The build quality does not match the price-tag - i.e. they don't seem to wear very well.

    No touchscreen options.

    I'm still rocking my 3rd gen X1 Carbon Touch, which I have upgraded the SSD drive in twice now. OK it's not NVMe (it's M.2 SATA).

    I wish the new gen X1 Carbon was available with touch. It's handy for zooming in on html element edges to check design consistency and stuff.

    *unless you get the help of somebody like Louis Rossmann.

    1. gnasher729 Silver badge

      "They genuinely have a tendency to suffer expensive irreparable* failures."

      Please explain how a failure can be expensive and irreparable at the same time. If you can't repair it, you pay zero for the repair.

      Plus, not my experience at all.

      1. Stevie Silver badge

        how a failure can be expensive and irreparable

        When it is a replacement prospect.

        You did spot the cost attached to this thing, right?

  27. St33v
    Coffee/keyboard

    Apple must have listening specifically to VIM developers. The left pinky finger muscle memory would melt down without an ESC key!

    :wq

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I don't care about the keyboard...

    HOW MANY SONGS CAN IT STORE?

    1. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: I don't care about the keyboard...

      "HOW MANY SONGS CAN IT STORE?"

      Four minute songs at 128 kbit/second: About two million if you buy the 8TB SSD. Enough to listen to 24/7 for 15 years.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2019