back to article Not LibreOffice too? Beloved open-source suite latest to fall victim to the curse of Catalina

Users who download and attempt to run LibreOffice on the new macOS Catalina are presented with two options – "Move to bin" or "Cancel". In the face of being told that the developer cannot be verified, savvy users will know that there must be more options – and there are. If you cancel the dialog, you can head to Security and …

  1. Zog_but_not_the_first Silver badge
    Trollface

    Just another...

    ... manifestation of Apple's corporate policy? "Do it our way and nobody gets hurt".

    1. IGotOut

      Re: Just another...

      Just another...

      ... manifestation of ... corporate policy? "Do it our way and nobody gets hurt".

      Tftfy

      1. Oengus Silver badge

        Re: Just another...

        According to LibreOffice they did do it Apple's way but it still didn't work so it would be

        "Do it our way and nobody gets hurt hope it works".

        FTFY

    2. macjules Silver badge

      Re: Just another...

      Just another manifestation of Apple's corporate policy? "Do it our way and stop whining: we know it hurts. Oh, and we are putting up our prices again because you whined you ungrateful lot".

      There, FTFY

    3. WallMeerkat

      Re: Just another...

      "Distribute via the app store and nobody gets annoyed"

      1. Kristian Walsh

        Re: Just another...

        App Store distribution has even tighter restrictions.

        The problem here isn't app security - authentication of origin is a good thing (although Apple controlling the gatway is a smaller "bad thing"). It's that Apple has apparently shipped a broken implementation.

        LibreOffice has had their build signed, but Apple is rejecting that build. That's a flaw in the process or the implementation. Perhaps the installation process changed something insignificant that the signing algorithm thinks is important? Perhaps Apple's crack team of stock-option clock-watche--- sorry, of software developers didn't test their code enough?

        Good idea, lousy implementation used to be Microsoft's purview (Apple excelled in "bad idea, excellent implementation")...

  2. katrinab Silver badge
    Unhappy

    How things change

    I am reminded of this Ad

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuqZ8AqmLPY

    1. David 132 Silver badge

      Re: How things change

      Damn it, you beat me to it - ironically, I was wrestling with my iPhone which didn’t want to copy the YouTube link. Have an upvote! (David132 is offering you an upvote. Abort, Cancel, Allow?)

      1. fidodogbreath Silver badge

        Re: How things change

        Upvote cannot be opened because the poster cannot be verified.

        [Move to Bin] [Cancel]

      2. vtcodger Silver badge

        Re: How things change

        Exactly what have you done to earn access to the awesome power of being able to copy web site addresses?

  3. Test Man

    It's not as if developers haven't had any warning...

    1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

      It's also not as if you properly read the article, by the looks of it.

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Should they have to chase after Windows for the better part of its six month release cycle and MacOS for the better part of its twelve month release cycle just to make everything still work?

      The fact that you run GIMP but the permission dialog doesn't appear until you go there in Terminal shows that something is, well gimped.

      The fact that the default action for opening an unsigned program is deleting it or not running it with no explanation as to what to do to make it run shows that something is also gimped.

      I think the stop before Catalina is where I get off the Mac OS update train.

      1. quxinot Silver badge

        I thought we had to stop calling it GIMP because it was offensive to cripples?

        So clearly it's not been gimped. It's been glimpsed. (Sigh.)

        1. jake Silver badge

          No. Read the GIMP FAQ.

          Q. I don’t like the name GIMP. Will you change it?

          A. With all due respect, no.

          Read the rest here, if you like.

          1. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

            Re: No. Read the GIMP FAQ.

            Thanks, jake - I hadn't seen that, and I'm glad someone else sees the world as I do. They have made the correct decision.

        2. hmv Bronze badge

          Why would a silk cord attached to a garment be offensive to cripples[0]? Or a participant in a BDSM scenario? Offensiveness isn't just the word; it's also the context in which it is used.

          0: "cripple" is offensive; I think you're supposed to use "differently abled" ... keep up! :)

          1. Chris Parsons

            A teacher friend was told not to tell pupils they had failed anything, but they had had a deferred success.

        3. volsano

          We don't say "cripple" any more - it's "a person experiencing disablement".

          If it helps, pronounce the image software as JIMP.

          1. hplasm Silver badge
            Devil

            Oh no-

            "If it helps, pronounce the image software as JIMP."

            - Let's not open that can of hworms...

        4. HelpfulJohn

          "I thought we had to stop calling it GIMP because it was offensive to cripples?"

          "GIMP" is surely only offensive to one, single cripple? "GIMPS" (The Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search") should be the one that offends cripples in pluralised bunches.

          https://www.mersenne.org/download/ for anyone vaguely interested. There's *prizes*!

      2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Lots of reasons not to switch to Catalina, not least lots of perfectly good software becoming unusable including my printer and scanner drivers. Gee whizz, Apple, of course, I'll buy new hardware to use your latest dumbed down version. SWMBO's machine was also asked to leave the bus an update ago. I can understand the move to 64-bit but less the way it's been handled.

        But I've also seen more serious problems particularly regarding logins and certificate management. The usual advice for any MacOS update is to wait at least a couple of patch versions (around the new year) while Apple continues fix all the stuff they've just fucked up. But basically with Catalina, just disable the notification that there is a new version.

        1. Wayland Bronze badge

          The PC with Windows managed to move to 64 bit whilst still supporting 32 bit. Yes things like Windows XP screen drivers for MSDos programs written in the early 1990's prefer Windows 7 32 bit but other than that it went very smoothly. A lot of this is thanks to AMD who figured out how to make the x86 both 32 bit and 64 bit at the same time.

          I expect there are a few very important things that can only be done on Apple. If you're not tied to Apple then move to Linux.

          1. Updraft102 Silver badge

            A lot of this is thanks to AMD who figured out how to make the x86 both 32 bit and 64 bit at the same time.

            That's at the hardware level, though. Mac dropping 32-bit is on the same hardware that still works with both on Windows and Linux (multiarch). It's just Apple being Apple, making decisions for its users, many of whom who will presumably thank Apple for freeing them from the burden of having to think for themselves.

            If Apple wants to implement a signature requirement for "apps," that's fine, so long as the user has the power to turn it off, not just to whitelist the "apps" one by one. There should also be a way to whitelist any given "app" from the popup.

          2. Charlie Clark Silver badge
            Flame

            I expect there are a few very important things that can only be done on Apple

            In many situations it's one or two very important things, which is why people stay. I've yet to see comparable desktop apps for Linux, not least because GTK refuses to die and take Poettering with it.

            If I do move, it will probably be to something running on Android. Samsung's Dex is a little rough around the edges but I can see where it could go.

            1. jake Silver badge

              What, pray tell, does Poettering have to do with GTK?

              Please note that not all distros have submitted to Gnome and systemd ... Try Slackware before you tar all Linux distros with the same brush.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                You should tar.gz instead. It's more efficient...

          3. fidodogbreath Silver badge

            The PC with Windows managed to move to 64 bit whilst still supporting 32 bit.

            So did MacOS, which has happily supported both 64- and 32-bit for years.

            Dropping 64-bit support in Catalina is a business decision by Apple, not a technical limitation.

            Mind you, I'm not in any way saying it's a good business decision...

            1. P. Lee

              I'd say Apple have always been ready to break things to improve the tech. Pure 64bit is cleaner thing and OS X has been 64bit for longer than windows.

              I'd have been happier if they had an "enable 32bit" option, off by default, as a migration path.

          4. martinusher Silver badge

            > AMD who figured out how to make the x86 both 32 bit and 64 bit at the same time.

            If I recall correctly the Intel architecture accesses memory as combination of a descriptor and an offset. The descriptor identifies a block of memory and its properties such as usage (stack, code, data), properties and dimensions. I think a lot of our problems arise because this model is not compatible with the "bloody great pool of generic memory" model that much of our code is written for, the model that doesn't differentiate between executable, data and stack memory (so is easily surprised when bad actors fudge getting code onto the stack or into data areas and force execution of that code). This architecture is inherently secure but it does involve some overhead if protection mechanisms are invoked (and its only got four 'rings' although modern code only seems to use two).

            So my understanding of this processor is that it should be able to use a mixture of 16, 32 and 64 bit designated memory areas depending on what they're used for. Its obviously more complex to design a system to take advantage of this flexibility but its a whole lot more efficient, and secure, than recompiling everything to be unnecessarily '64 bit'.

          5. jake Silver badge

            Multilib

            If you have a need to run 32-bit software alongside 64-bit software, you might want to check out this page. As usual, Slackware quietly has the answer, if you'd just look.

          6. P. Lee

            Apple seem to despise whatever doesn't directly make them money.

            Go ahead Apple and do your thing. I'll do mine. Maybe one day you'll be cool again.

      3. EBG

        I get off the Mac OS update train.

        Yes. Will freeze the updates, and bite the bullet and get into Linux medium term. Shame - Apple OS has been good. Stable. Runs the Open Source software that I've grown used to. Just lets me get on with my day job, and that's worth paying the premium for. Had to use a Windows 10 for a few days last week, and no f***** way am I going back to MS.

        1. Wayland Bronze badge

          Re: I get off the Mac OS update train.

          You can probably stick with Apple if you use the workarounds.

          1. EBG

            Re: I get off the Mac OS update train.

            Thanks. But equally, if the direction of travel is clear, then the direction of my investment of my IT software familiarisation and personalised configuration time is also clear.

        2. Chris Parsons

          Re: I get off the Mac OS update train.

          I moved to Mint Linux 3 years ago and have yet to regret it.

          1. fidodogbreath Silver badge

            Re: I get off the Mac OS update train.

            +1. Mint is far and away my favorite distro. I can't go all-in on it due to some niche hardware and software I need that aren't supported by Linux or WINE; but it's a great OS.

    3. WolfFan Silver badge

      I encountered this problem during the Catalina beta test, and it's actually worse than the article suggests. I know that the LibreOffice devs updated things to work with the new system, because LibreOffice 6.2.x works fine but 6.3.x won't install. This was reported to Apple at the time. Once Catalina went GM, I reported it to the devs as well. It's something specific to 6.3.x which causes this. And, oh, the workaround suggested in the article did not work during the beta period. I tried that first thing. Nope. Haven't tried it since, maybe it works now. Allow me to doubt this.

      I haven't tried the GIMP with Catalina, as I use a combination of Affinity products and my old faithful Graphic Converter, which I've used (and paid for!) since 1995, for my image-editing needs, having kicked Adobe away with Catalina 'cause Adobe Creative Suite 5.5 finally died and I am NOT sharecropping with Creative Cloud. Nope. Not going to happen. Congratulations, Adobe, you made sales for Affinity.

      1. tip pc Bronze badge

        Upvote for graphic converter

        Loved that app, stopped using it when preview could open everything, I’m sure I have a license somewhere. Will take a look sometime see how she’s getting on now days.

      2. Lee D Silver badge

        Question:

        If you use GIMP, LibreOffice, Affinitiy and Adobe - all of which are cross-platform - are you honestly staying on Apple's platform just for GraphicConvertor which appears to be - forgive me - a shareware piece of photo management software that barely does more than the junk that they tried for decades to give away with everything, or even things available on Humble Bundles from names like Corel?

        There comes a point where everyone sensible has moved to cross-platform tools. That point came about 10-20 years ago depending on your techniness, even if by accident of moving to web-based tools. And now you've basically done that, you're paying for Apple because...?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          And now you've basically done that, you're paying for Apple because...?

          .. you still want a commercial grade desktop where you can execute commercial applications alongside Open Source ones with Unix and all the associated benefits and languages underneath, accompanied by hardware that you can get serviced anywhere in the world without having to spend a fortune on "support" contracts.

          You buy Apple because you value your time. If you don't, you stay with Windows. Both work. One is cheap to obtain and costs you more in wasted time, one is expensive upfront but you waste less time waiting for upgrades that too plentiful. Ditto for keeping it secure.

          I use all three platforms (Linux, mostly Debian, MacOS and Windows), and my personal preference is still MacOS combined with a lot of FOSS (LibreOffice, for instance, and wireshark via brew). I don't have the time to tweak settings, nor do I want to have my workflow interrupted by a Windows update which blocks a shutdown until it, on its own time, decides it's done. A Macbook (and a Linux machine if set up correctly) is a close-the-lid-and-go proposition that I can also put in the hands of an executive without worrying too much that they'll screw it up, and still force them to make a safe backup when travelling.

          Linux works too, but that needs a *serious* injection of usability knowledge to get anywhere near Linux, and you have the chicken-and-egg issue of commercial applications. For example, anyone who has ever tried to get a computer novice to use GIMP knows that that is a lost battle - put them in front of a Mac with any of the Affinity products and they're pretty much instantly able to do something useful, and that ability starts up a virtuous cycle where users then self-educate through use instead of fleeing back to "safe" (cough) Windows.

          1. macjules Silver badge
            Happy

            +1

            No idea why you got downvoted as I thought that was an excellent post. Possibly because you mentioned Windows and Linux in the same paragraph as Apple, which tends to set off the Apple fanbois.

            Thank you.

          2. SuperFrog
            Boffin

            I'm in this camp.

            I don't like Apple's (lack of) commitment to software quality. From what I have read Apple's software teams are struggling with what Management wants vs what they really can achieve.

            Steve wouldn't stand for it BTW, excellence was his expectation. I think there is something to be learned from that.

            1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

              Things probably won't change until Apple see a decline in sales that kicks them into action. So far they seem to think decline in sales are related solely to hardware pricing.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Absolutely spot on.

                This tends to be a cyclic pattern anyway: company does something really good so it gets ahead in the market, and as soon as that happens the MBAs move in and milk it well beyond the tolerance of the market to be abused after which it's panic and either a new Bright Guy™ is brought in or the company diversifies in other things it thinks it can wheedle more money out of its customers. Microsoft is IMHO in the latter category - they just have been coasting longer on the non-innovation path, and because they still have a number of comfy monopolies they don't have to panic just yet (although them "embracing" Linux suggests some are worried).

                Apple is in the "we have so much money we don't actually quite know what the f*ck we're going to do next but we can afford a few years of bugger all" mode. In my opinion, Catalina screwed the pooch in terms of improving apparent security in a manner that immediately made me think of Windows Vista - no real improvement, but a usability impact of a nature I have not seen in years. In all honestly, I cannot recommend Catalina because it has become as interruptive as Windows in trying to get a job done, and that was the exact reason I dropped Windows as main OS some 13 years ago.

                I hope Apple management quickly reverses the current cranial invasion of their respective rectal cavities because they did do something right, and I would not want them to screw this up - if nothing else, just leave it alone. We don't NEED updates all the time other than for patching security problems.

            2. macjules Silver badge

              Steve made things and made them work right. Cook just really oversees a financial service where they do not know what to do with all the billions they are making. I wonder how much financial commitment is made to QA and user-focussed testing compared with the budget for marketing.

        2. John Bailey

          "you're paying for Apple because...?"

          Because it just works......

          1. NLCSGRV

            Until it just doesn't.

          2. MrReynolds2U

            <cough /> ... have you read the article?

            1. Anon

              <cough /> Please check the batteries in your sarcasm detector...

      3. anothercynic Silver badge

        Well, I've had notification after notification telling me to get on to Catalina. I point blank refuse to. Mojave was already a jarring change, I'll stay on the Sierras or Mojave for the time being...

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I'm one of the people on the list for this bug, and from what I have seen so far I think it's time to throw this over the fence to Apple.

      The devs did everything they're supposed to do, and the diagnostic tools that Apple made available all confirm it ought to work. But it doesn't. IMHO it's Apple's problem now.

      As for Catalina, I am old enough to remember Windows Vista's *cough* "security" *cough* (although I think I'm not the only one who would want to rather forget it), and I fear that Apple has just done a Vista on itself.

      What people need is ACTUAL security, not the appearance thereof, and what Catalina is doing is just silly and profoundly unstructured. Either Apple prepares an upgrade tool that states "hey, there are these difference, shall we walk through all of them now?" or ends up annoying people with all the permissions apps have to gain.

      In addition, I would seriously want that setup to happen during INSTALLATION time of new applications, not have a permission failure halfway through use - I have seen this happen with tasks that are supposed to run in the background but failed because they had not gained the required permissions upfront to do so.

      It's a shame - we had a good run with MacOS so far, but Catalina may end up being redubbed Catastrophic from a usability perspective. I'm on beta 2, and I am experiencing a profound lack of improvement on this.

      1. Wayland Bronze badge

        "I would seriously want that setup to happen during INSTALLATION time of new applications, not have a permission failure halfway through use" this is a nightmare when setting up someone else's computer. You think you've got it all working and then they do something which triggers a prompt which they don't know how to deal with.

      2. Updraft102 Silver badge

        As for Catalina, I am old enough to remember Windows Vista's *cough* "security" *cough* (although I think I'm not the only one who would want to rather forget it), and I fear that Apple has just done a Vista on itself.

        Apple made Vista the butt of their joke with those smarmy "I'm a Mac" commercials. I always disliked that smug "Mac" guy, but I thought the PC guy was kinda endearing. Not exactly what they were trying to accomplish...

        1. Kristian Walsh

          Vista's problem was the incessant nagging, as each permission needed to be approved by the user. Where programs spawned additional processes it turned into a nightmare of re-approving each sub-process. Windows 7 to 10 actually use the same security model to protect the user's system against privilege escalation, but the user layer was changed to ask you only once for all necessary permissions for a process and its sub-processes.

          Catalina's problem is different: the software is broken.

      3. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge

        Vista wasn't the problem - OK, so the two UAC prompts every time you wanted to change things were a bit of an annoyance, but it was mostly due to poor app development.

        Windows 7 deliberately downgraded the UAC security (you can upgrade it again via local security policy), and by the time it came out practically all the drivers had been updated, and many popular applications changed to remove the expectation of unlimited local admin access.

  4. Mage Silver badge
    Devil

    Arrogant

    Time to abandon the walled garden.

    A later version of Mac OS will be Apple store only, assuming Mac OS isn't replaced by a desktop version of iOS.

    So much is broken about this release basically due to Apple wanting more control.

    1. fidodogbreath Silver badge

      Re: Arrogant

      A later version of Mac OS will be Apple store only

      Unfortunately, I think a similar fate will befall Windows 10.

      The era of being able to control our own computing environment is coming to an end -- at least, for the mainstream commercial operating systems.

      It's already hard to find software that you can buy (as opposed to renting for eternity) in some categories. So 10 years from now, you can forget about opening files created with software that you've either stopped paying for or the publisher has gone out of business; and even if you still somehow "own" an old version of an app, it could still be borked by an OS update, or a license-check server that has been shut down, or maybe the hardware itself is past its expiration date.

      "Personal computing" ended not with a bang, but with an expensive rent-seeking whimper.

      1. MacroRodent Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: Arrogant

        > The era of being able to control our own computing environment is coming to an end -- at least, for the mainstream commercial operating systems.

        You really mean closed-source operating systems. If enough people get annoyed by Apple and MS antics, and go to Linux, it will become the mainstream on desktop (as it already is almost everywhere else).

        1. Hstubbe

          Re: Arrogant

          > You really mean closed-source operating systems. If enough people get annoyed by Apple and MS antics, and go to Linux, it will become the mainstream on desktop (as it already is almost everywhere else).

          Don't worry, with systemd, linux is rapidly catching up with macos and windows in becoming unusable.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Arrogant

            Thankfully, systemd is hardly necessary.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_distributions_without_systemd

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Arrogant

              Regardless of your views on systemd, be a little careful when using that wikipedia list; it's possible to install at least some of those distros with or without systemd.

              With Gentoo, for example, systemd is available as an alternative init system.

              Personally speaking, I've chosen to use openrc rather than systemd on my Gentoo based laptop which I use daily, but I just put up with systemd on my raspberry pis because I just use them for occasional tinkering, apart from the two running OSMC.

          2. MacroRodent Silver badge

            Re: Arrogant

            Desktop usage is precisely the use-case where systemd has benefits, or at least does no harm. It is apparently the case its designer mostly had had in mind.

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: Arrogant

              "It is apparently the case its designer mostly had had in mind."

              Presumably to try to make it as close to Windows as possible.

            2. P. Lee

              Re: Arrogant

              Or rather, laptop usage. With USB thingies.

              Something needed to be done. I'm just not convinced systemd was it.

          3. NLCSGRV

            Re: Arrogant

            There are (still) alternatives to PoetteringOS in the Linux world.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          " it will become the mainstream on desktop"

          Maybe. The problem is you'll just get the desktop and no useful software to run from there...

          And, BTW - "everywhere else" - Android is not Linux - it is controlled by Google as much as MS and Apple control their environments - just like macOS is not *BSD - no matter how much code it borrowed. And one day, not too far away, Google *will* drop Linux from its mobe OS, don't worry.

          1. MacroRodent Silver badge

            Re: " it will become the mainstream on desktop"

            > The problem is you'll just get the desktop and no useful software to run from there...

            Depends on what your "useful software" is. As the article shows, currently MacOS is not such a great choice if your useful software is LibreOffice or Gimp. And I have long done all my software development work on Linux. Said software being destined to run on Linux in network elements.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              "if your useful software is LibreOffice or Gimp"

              I think Apple cares very little about you if your useful software if LibreOffice and Gimp, and frankly, why are you using macOS instead of Linux then? Just for the Apple logo on the laptop lid to show off?

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: " it will become the mainstream on desktop"

            "The problem is you'll just get the desktop and no useful software to run from there."

            Really? What desktop Linux versions did you try? I'm not sure about some of the lightweight versions - of which there are a fair few in the list Jake pointed to - and there are some special purpose versions, such as pen-testing, etc. But all the mainstream versions come bundled with a set of applications that fulfil most everyday needs such as browser, email, graphics, multimedia and office.

            Perhaps by "no useful software" you mean "no useful software you can buy". That may be because there's not much need.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              "What desktop Linux versions did you try? "

              Well, Debian, Ubuntu, CentOS... and really, no useful software for my everyday needs - which are a little higher-end than FOSS software can support, sorry. You're right, when no one buys you software, it's difficult to get the money to build really useful one. Inevitably you get mostly stuck with amateurish one - like GIMP.

        3. Jamie Jones Silver badge

          Re: Arrogant

          Hmmm, the seeds were set in the way they've got users to accept their phones and tablets being tied down. It was only a matter of time before these "enhancements" crept to the desktops.

          Oh, and both android and IOS/MacOS run on linux/free unix derivates, but that doesn't help the situation.

        4. fidodogbreath Silver badge

          Re: Arrogant

          You really mean closed-source operating systems.

          I mean Windows, MacOS, iOS, ChromeOS. Should include Android on that list too, because at some point Google will get sick of the "Researchers found scads more malicious apps with zillions of downloads on the Play Store" headlines and lock down all the non-AOSP stuff.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Arrogant

        I feel like I should say something snotty at this point about Linux not being a walled garden, but the fact is, not all manual installs are a picnic, half of the scripts i've tried from the Arch User Repository are amateur hour, some PPAs may not be well maintained or entirely reliable, and the Flatpaks, Snaps, and AppImages I've tried are space-hogs and either difficult or impossible to customize. So I guess for most Windows and Mac OS refugees, the walled garden is their distro's repository. (I can't speak to BSD because I don't think I'm smart enough to to configure and run it -- not even GhostBSD.)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Arrogant

          BSD is no harder to install and configure than windows (how many windows users install windows?)

          Go on... try it.. start with 'true-os'. You really are smart enough...

      3. Wayland Bronze badge

        Re: Arrogant

        "Personal computing" ended not with a bang, but with an expensive rent-seeking whimper.

        Personal Computing is retreating to the nerd cities from where it came. We will use Linux so we will be OK. The problem is we won't be able to go up to a personal computer and get it to do something without installing a root kit first.

        All the wonderful new tech like face recognition will only be rentable closed source meaning they could have a list of faces it won't recognise and we won't know about it.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Arrogant

          > The problem is we won't be able to go up to a personal computer and get it to do something without installing a root kit first.

          Open hardware platforms are starting to shape (Raptor Computing, RISC-V, etc) as a response to this. And they're looking ok.

          Raptor Computing is still way too expensive for the general average user, but RISC-V progress is extraordinary so (hoping here) it won't be more than 1-2 years before we'll start to see usable low end laptop or equivalents from that.

    2. Someone Else Silver badge

      Re: Arrogant

      R.I.P.

      "Mac OSX...chasing Windows since 2014..."

      Hey, El Reg, what happened to the R.I.P. emoticon?

      1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
        Dead Vulture

        Re: Arrogant

        Hey, El Reg, what happened to the R.I.P. emoticon?

        This one? :-) ------------------------->

  5. JohnFen Silver badge

    This makes me happy

    This makes me happy that I don't use MacOS!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This makes me happy

      This 'Bin' that they mention. Is that like slash bin or like shred bin?

      (The subtleties of coexistence escape the Applelachians - "Appalachian Americans, due to various factors, have developed their own distinct culture within larger social groupings. Included are their own dialect, music, folklore, ...")

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: This makes me happy

        It's a new translation in Catalina for non-Merikin English.

        Almost worth the update in itself.

      2. Someone Else Silver badge

        Re: This makes me happy

        This 'Bin' that they mention. Is that like slash bin or like shred bin?

        More like /bin/nul....

    2. A.P. Veening Silver badge

      Re: This makes me happy

      This makes me happy that I don't use MacOS!

      This makes me happy I already quit the church of St. Jobs some tweny years ago.

      1. The Central Scrutinizer

        Re: This makes me happy

        It makes me happy that I never bought a Mac.

        And if you want truly "personal computing" these days, there is really only one option.

        1. Zoopy

          Re: This makes me happy

          An IoT vibrator?

          1. Danny Boyd

            Re: This makes me happy

            Speaking of which: I am old enough to remember not only Vista, but also glorious iBrator.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXHc69KW598 (reasonably SFW.)

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: This makes me happy

              I've got a still useful laptop that's old enough to remember that ...

  6. tekHedd

    SECURITY!!!1!!

    App signing: is it really about enhancing app security, or is this just another control thing, like SSL certificates? For your safety and security, all your apps are our apps now.

    1. fidodogbreath Silver badge

      Re: SECURITY!!!1!!

      App signing, notarizing, and permissions-based control over important functions are not bad ideas. However, the way they were implemented in Catalina is heavy-handed and a pretty terrible user experience.

      It's as if Apple's testers only considered the "clean install" scenario, with only 64-bit first-party software. It's hard to believe that anyone could have looked at the UX when updating an existing system with a lot of software installed and thought, "this is fine."

      1. elgarak1

        Re: SECURITY!!!1!!

        This is NOT just a system with lots of software INSTALLED. It's a system with LOTS OF SOFTWARE BEING MADE TO RUN WHEN LAUNCHING THE SYSTEM WITH TONS OF CUSTOM SCRIPTS.

        I, too, have a ton of software installed. I still have a lot of 32-bit apps that I can probably throw out now, and I could have thrown them out before because I rarely use them.

        But I did not see such a wall of notifications, because, well, I do not run everything all the time. I just clicked the dialogs when I actually launched the apps.

        There's very little I actually set to launch at startup, and all those few things I checked and updated before I installed Catalina, so it was smooth sailing. (There's a reason that I never used a lot of auto-launch things. They never worked reliably and interfered a lot with other things.)

        There are very few hiccups I have seen with the switch to Catalina. Actually only one: I needed to do-over all the backups (Time Machine and Carbon Copy Cloner) since they now all switched fully to APFS.

        (There's the thing that I cannot properly choose between language versions of TV series to buy with the new TV.app here in Germany, but that's hardly the end of the world.)

        1. doublelayer Silver badge

          Re: SECURITY!!!1!!

          It doesn't really matter when the warnings happen. A wall of them makes a better point in one picture, but it doesn't really change the experience if the warnings appear one by one. I'm happy to have to manually grant access to stuff. But it is Apple's responsibility to make sure that works when other programs try to use it. And there is no good reason not to tell people that they have the option to proceed with running an unsigned app; that box is pretty bad. Apple's headed in the right direction, but they're on the wrong track. They'll need to jump to a parallel one with good UX and user choice in mind, then keep going in the direction of more OS-enforced security.

      2. JohnFen Silver badge

        Re: SECURITY!!!1!!

        "App signing, notarizing, and permissions-based control over important functions are not bad ideas."

        True, as long as the user has control over whether or not they're used.

  7. Ken Hagan Gold badge

    Testing?

    These aren't minority interest apps. Why didn't these issues show up?

    1. theOtherJT

      Re: Testing?

      Reading the statements from the developers, it sounds like they *did* show up in testing, we're duly reported to apple, who promptly ignored them.

      1. WolfFan Silver badge

        Re: Testing?

        Reported by me, for one, to Apple. And by me, for one, to the devs as soon as Catalina went GM. Apple should have contacted the devs about this months ago; I know that some of my reports went around to the devs, Hogwasher for example crashed repeatedly with Catalina but was updated (twice!) to fix the problems and now is relatively stable. I sent in a raft of bug reports about LibreOffice, Hogwasher, and assorted other problematic apps; two have not been updated: LibreOffice, which is allegedly still in development, and a usenet client which hasn't been in development for over three years now. I suspect that the usenet client is dead and gone, but there's no excuse for LibreOffice not being fixed.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Testing?

        "we're duly reported to apple"

        And have been told to report for processing?

        1. theOtherJT

          Re: Testing?

          helpful auto-correct is helpful :/

    2. WolfFan Silver badge

      Re: Testing?

      Actually, LibreOffice and the GIMP are minority interest apps. And the issues did show in testing. As I pointed out upthread, 6.2.x works just fine. 6.3.x in broken. Allow me to suggest that the error may be with someone other than Apple? Someone, not Apple, did something to 6.3.x to cause a problem. Perhaps that someone should fix it. Or not. I have 6.2.x installed and working, so they may not care.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Testing?

        "Actually, LibreOffice and the GIMP are minority interest apps."

        For values of "minority interest" that includes "used by millions of actual human beings (if not tens of millions) each and every day".

        1. elgarak1

          Re: Testing?

          Have you actually used the Mac specific GIMP or LibreOffice versions?

          They're not very nice. There are MUCH better alternatives out there – albeit not open source, but far from very expensive either. Heck, GIMP was using X11 until Apple gave that the boot, and X11-GIMP was pretty unusable on modest (low-end) Macs.

          I do not like to use them, though I have them (because I like the concept of open source generally). But their devs do not like to submit to the rules of macOS (LOOOOOONG before there was Catalina...), and prefer to give us crappy apps instead.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "For values of "minority interest"

          Do you really believe many buy an Apple system to run GIMP and not Photoshop? I'm quite sure the intersection of "GIMP users" and "macOS users" is quite small. Of course if you run Linux you can't run Photoshop but going through complex WINE tricks, so that intersection will be much larger.

          1. fix72

            Re: "For values of "minority interest"

            What kind of baloney is this? Why should I have to pay top dollar for Photoshop for the occasional use of an image manipulation tool? Apply boast to be different in support of the thinkers, the creatives, providing a wonderful user experience of things that just work... well they're getting more and more restrictive without giving their customer choices... exactly the kind of thing they used to be against.

            Really sad.

        3. Doctor Huh?

          Re: Testing?

          --For values of "minority interest" that includes "used by millions of actual human beings (if not tens of millions) each and every day".--

          Well, that's the funny thing about numbers, even large ones. Mark Zuckerberg was in front of the US Congress decrying the failure of the banking system, because over a billion people don't have access to bank accounts. There are 7.7 billion (say it like Dr. Evil, folks) people on the planet. That means that the banking system covers about 87% of the people on the planet. To me, that seems like a pretty rousing success story. It isn't perfect, and the access isn't very evenly distributed, but... 87%!

          So it is perfectly possible to have millions or tens of millions of devoted followers and still be a niche product when compared against products that are distributed to billions.

      2. Mage Silver badge
        Coffee/keyboard

        Re: minority interest apps

        Likely more people now use such apps on Windows than people BUY Macs each year.

        The Mac is a minority HW.

        No-one knows how many PCs bought with Windows and Macs run Linux, though likely small. Most Linux is on embedded stuff, servers and some ereaders (some strangely use Android even though Android apps and GUI is unsuitable for eink). Not so many laptops.

        1. vgrig_us

          Re: minority interest apps

          "Most Linux is on embedded stuff, servers and some ereaders (some strangely use Android even though Android apps and GUI is unsuitable for eink). Not so many laptops."

          Huh? I haven't had a Windows or macos running on bare metal at home in over 5 years, my work desktops have been Linux for over 15. I know I'm a minority, but not that small of the minority...

          1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: minority interest apps

            Despite being a FreeBSD guy, "doing unix" professionally for over 25 years, and having used x11 since the days of CDE on Sun and HP hardware, I now tend to use android for my desktop!

            I've "unixified" the command line, have added lots more native disk space, and NFS, can use vnc to my freebsd boxes if required, and usually have lots of terminals open to freebsd boxes.

            But, until someone can tell me about another system that does left-mouse-button drag to scroll (rather than copy) I'm likely to keep it this way... Long press of left-mouse-button to enable copy mode is fine. Otherwise it should be scroll.

            Side-bar scolling is annoying.

            http://www.welshgit.net/photos/computers/desktop/android/

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: minority interest apps

            I know I'm a minority, but not that small of the minority...

            Depends. How tall are you?

            :)

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "Huh? I haven't had a Windows or macos running"

            You're one, not many. Data are there, you can look at them, people using Linux on a desktop system are a tiny minority. And those using LibreOffice and GIMP on macOS system probably even less. Many people buy Macs exactly because they need to run applications like Adobe ones - and the integrated OS functionalities and full hardware support, avoiding to have to mess with non-native applications and their baggage of nuisances.

        2. Wayland Bronze badge

          Re: minority interest apps

          The fact that Linux dominates embedded devices like routers and TV boxes is not relevant when discussing LibreOffice. We are talking about 'PC's running LibreOffice. It's a very popular suite of programs and is very much cross platform. It's written for Windows, Mac and Linux so should work unhindered. Apple under communist Tim Cook is pissing of his most important customers.

          Actually I just realised why. In the past it was people like us who would help users with their computers, often for free and often as a business. If Tim Apple pisses us off then we abandon Apple leaving the average user at Tim's mercy (which will cost a lot).

          We've seen this with Rossman and his Apple soldering channel on YouTube. Apple do everything they can to thwart his business so they can screw the customer. Even to the extent of making spare parts taken from scrapped iPhones illegal.

        3. JohnFen Silver badge

          Re: minority interest apps

          "No-one knows how many PCs bought with Windows and Macs run Linux,"

          This. While I agree that the percentage of such machines that are now running Linux is small, I can offer one bit of anecdotal data: very nearly every machine I've purchased in the last 20 years (I estimate that this is in the neighborhood of 50 machines) have had Windows preinstalled, and in every case the first thing I've done is to wipe the hard drive and install Linux.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: minority interest apps

            .. and the big, BIG problem with that is that Microsoft STILL got paid for that copy.

            Also, there are a LOT of machines out there which are getting a discount from MS if they lock the UEFI - something worth checking before you buy anything that comes pre-polluted with Windows.

            1. JohnFen Silver badge

              Re: minority interest apps

              Yes, that's a problem. While I've obtained rebates for a couple of my unused Windows preinstallations, the process to do so is enough of a pain in the ass that I stopped bothering with it, even to make a point.

              The UEFI thing is an ongoing issue, and the ability to disable it is one of the first things I check for before purchasing.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: minority interest apps/UEFI thing

                @JohnFen

                *

                Why does UEFI need to be disabled? I've installed six or seven recent Fedora distributions, completely overwriting Windows7 and Windows 10. It's irritating and fiddly to get the UEFI label "correct" for Fedora, but once that is done -- no probs (at least for me).

                *

                [By the way, this story is true for two recent HP laptops and one Acer laptop.]

                1. JohnFen Silver badge

                  Re: minority interest apps/UEFI thing

                  Technically, it doesn't necessarily have to be disabled. It all depends on whether its been locked down (and what distro you're using, if I understand right).

                  But I prefer to have the ability to disable it so I have a fallback in case I can't get it to work, or if I want to install a nonstandard OS.

              2. ibmalone Silver badge

                Re: minority interest apps

                https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/workstations/precision-3000-desktop-workstation/spd/precision-t3x20-series-workstation/xctop3620mtemea?configurationid=53166100-dd10-4459-bd5a-61bec5c79314

                Select Ubuntu 14 :)

                Admittedly not the cheapest way to buy desktops unless you've got a discount.

                1. JohnFen Silver badge

                  Re: minority interest apps

                  If I can find a machine that both meets my needs and is available without an OS or with Linux preinstalled (it doesn't matter which distro, as I'll be wiping the hard drive and installing my own anyway), I do that. That rarely happens, though.

      3. elgarak1

        Re: Testing?

        And LibreOffice themselves offer specifically BOTH 6.3.x and 6.2.x to download, with the specific notes that 6.3.x is for "technology enthusiast, early adopter or power user" while 6.2.x is "slightly older and does not have the latest features, but it has been tested for longer."

        Meaning: if you need it to work, get 6.2.x, and don't expect 6.3.x to work flawlessly.

        Now, I don't think Apple did everything right – from what I see, their "registered developer check" system is a tad overzealous – but LibreOffice devs are hardly innocent in this kerfuffle.

        1. elgarak1

          Re: Testing?

          Besides: LibreOffice belongs to a bunch of those open source programs that refuse to follow the rules of the hosting system on principle "because of their way or the highway" just as much or more than Apple. It has lots of quirks because of this attitude (I rarely can open a text document with correct fonts DESPITE BOTH PROGRAMS I exchange the document with run on the same machine with the same set of installed fonts*) that I actually avoid to use it if I can.

          *Seriously. I have tons of word processing apps, and I can exchange freely between almost all of them within the limits of their philosophies, but only LibreOffice throws such things in my way all the time. Even frackin' WORD works currently better im-/exporting. Which is ironic since I got LibreOffice to avoid using WORD in the first place!

          1. ovation1357

            Re: Testing?

            +1 for use of "frackin'"

            I think it's pretty unfair to say that open source software has a "my way or the highway" towards the host OS - it's surely much more a case that if you spend time developing against an OS specific UI or set of internal APIs then it offers no benefit to the support for any other OS.

            Sure, open sources fight against vendor lock-in and against proprietary elements all the time, and yes; there's also in-fighting and clashes of egos/ideologies which sometimes stunts progress, but underneath all that there are incredible people and ethical companies giving their time and skills for free to make software for the greater good... And being open source means that anyone can do it their way whenever they feel like it.

            Within the LibreOffice suite there's a huge raft of configurable options - way, way more than you can customise on MS Office; and you can theme it how the hell you want whereas MS now enforces almost no customisation of their utterly horrid, bland, low contrast and flat UI with a tonne of wasted white space... They're the ones goading us towards the highway.

            I'm a little puzzled about the font problem you've mentioned - I can honestly say that I've never had such an issue (plenty of others where complex docx gets a big mangled though).

            On the subject of fonts though - I hate to admit it but one of the things I really miss when switching from MS to Libre is lack of any font preview. The massive list of font names isn't particularly helpful. I think If I ever get time to offer a code contribution then this is something I'd look at improving.

            1. elgarak1

              Re: Testing?

              It's not open source software per se. There's lots of open source software that just works. Even for and on the Mac.

              But then there's a few open source packages which believe they found a better way to do things, and insist to do their way everywhere, regardless if it clashes with the behavior of the OS, or all the other software on that OS, or make things troublesome for users who just want to get their work done and get frustrated if there's this one thing that does not work as they expect.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Testing?

            Well, LO do seem to insist on avoiding the most excellent usability feature on MacOS for entering accented characters if the keyboard does not have them directly accessible. If you have ever tried to use the "special characters" facility in LO you know that that is a screaming usability issue for anyone who uses more than one language, and for me it meant I gladly switched to NeoOffice, despite that having its own weird quirks. It's just too handy.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Testing?

            I know from personal experience that LibreOffice doesn't always do a perfect job of exporting to MS Office file formats. SoftMaker FreeOffice, a proprietary payware / free-crippleware suite, does a much better job. (I'm not sure about ONLYOFFICE as it doesn't support keyboard layouts with dead keys, which is a showstopper for me.)

            As for importing MS Office documents, I've never run into a problem in LibreOffice -- although, to be fair, the documents I was importing probably didn't incorporate MS Office's latest exotic formats and functions.

            However -- at least through MS Office 2016 -- LibreOffice is markedly more successful than MS Office itself at opening and recovering old or slightly corrupted MS Office documents. I've done it myself a number of times, and from I've read, it's the solution of first resort for experienced office-support techs.

  8. Sgt_Oddball Silver badge
    Windows

    So what you're saying is..

    Running it like a regular Joe (clicking on an icon in the gui) will bork, but use terminal and all's well?

    Does this apply to those of us who do nutty things like have homebrew, custom install directories of java, obscure USB-TO-RS-232 drivers and minicom as well fun stuff like docker running in their macs?

    I suppose this also kills multi-browser too? *sigh* (replaces your default browser and instead offers you a choice of all of the browsers you have installed to select the most appropriate, total boom for a Web dev).

    So yeah I'll stick with mojave and apple can get off my lawn...

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Productivity? I really don't see the benefit of Catalina over High Sierra.

    Once I get home from work, opening up Catalina is fine, it's full of things to stop me working, Arcade, App Store, AppleTV, Apple Books, Audiobooks, Podcasts, Apple Music.

    But why the hell would anyone deploy this distraction into a working office environment? I just can't see any benefit over El Capitan/High Sierra. I really don't need a desktop wallpaper that changes with the time of day and I can live without dark mode/auto mode.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Productivity? I really don't see the benefit of Catalina over High Sierra.

      Wuss. I use those things at work - instead of working!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Productivity? I really don't see the benefit of Catalina over High Sierra.

      They wouldn't. They would support Mojave and wait for 6 months+... as our company does with a BYOD / JAMF deployment.

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Productivity? I really don't see the benefit of Catalina over High Sierra.

      One day for a test if I've got some time to spare (probably never) I'm going to run Snow Leopard on the same hardware and watch it fly like shit off a shovel.

      1. TWB

        Re: Productivity? I really don't see the benefit of Catalina over High Sierra.

        Snow Leopard is also my favourite from a usability POV, but as someone who still runs it on an old Macbook (it can't take any further updates), it can be annoying for internet stuff.

        I wonder if Linux will be my next OS.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Poor itards, paying all that money to be treated like a child cash cow.

    1. Someone Else Silver badge

      Poor itards devs, paying all that money to be treated like a child cash cow.

      There, FTFY

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    After largely benefiting from Open Source

    now Apple is happily kicking them out at the curb. They pilfered open source software for years without sending as much as a thank you card on Christmas and now that they're making billions they can't be bothered to give something back to the community. It's good to be king!

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: After largely benefiting from Open Source

      You mean just like Google is with the modifications to the Linux kernel that they make for Android?

      1. JohnFen Silver badge

        Re: After largely benefiting from Open Source

        Yes. What's your point?

      2. vgrig_us

        Re: After largely benefiting from Open Source

        @Steve Davies 3

        Good try. Too bad for you that Android has been merged upstream - just Google (or bring?) "Android merged back into main Linux tree".

        It wasn't Google holding back - kernel guys weren't happy with quality of code: specifically how it handled different architectures I think, like arm...

    2. DerekCurrie Bronze badge
      FAIL

      Re: After largely benefiting from Open Source

      Of course you posted anonymously. I have no idea what you're talking about. I bet you don't either. Below is are links to Apple's Open Source pages where anyone can find what open source projects Apple sponsors as well as which are integrated into Apple's software.

      https://opensource.apple.com

      https://developer.apple.com/opensource/

      Swift programming language, created at Apple as a successor to all things C, made Open Source in 2015:

      https://opensource.apple.com

      Webkit is Apple's Open Source branch off Linux's Konquerer web rendering engine. It's the foundation of Google's subsequent branch, Blink, used in all flavors of Chromium, including Microsoft Edge:

      https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/DisplayWebContent/DisplayWebContent.html

      CUPS is the Open Source printing system developed and maintained by Apple for all flavors of UNIX-like operating systems, which includes Linux.

      https://www.cups.org

      ResearchKit...

      CareKit...

      Bonjour...

      MacPorts...

      Darwin...

      Apple Lossless Audio Codec...

      MacRUBY...

      XQuartz...

      That's enough to negate your nonsense. But please continue through the lists Apple provides at the links above. macOS itself currently integrates about 200 Open Source projects.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: After largely benefiting from Open Source

        It's the same approach used by Google. Take full advantage of open source and give away the little bits you need a lot of other people to work on - i.e. the printer support - but keep tightly closed every bit which is really important to lock customers in...

  12. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge
    Big Brother

    Another click in the wall

    Remember when MacOS the platform of freedom and openness? Then MacOS X found its way into workplaces by being so easily compatible with the rest of the computing world. Now most people in an office try their hardest to avoid major MacOS updates because they get slower, harder to manage, and less compatible with open standards. Apple doesn't even support full backup and restore anymore because APFS is so super secret that not even Apple has it working.

    1. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Another click in the wall

      No, this has literally never been true, except for that brief period when Apple allowed clones to be made. MacOS has always been the platform of proprietary lock-in.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Another click in the wall

      The problem is that as OSX got more popular Apple have just bolted more botched protection into it that it's falling apart under the weight of the botched attempts to make it industry strength. One of the reasons I dumped Mac about a year ago when it was due for upgrade, just went back to using Windows again. It's not perfect but Windows was usable whereas OSX is being a quagmire of botched patches and ideas dreamt up by the PR droids and crowbarred in by beleagured Apple devs.

      1. Someone Else Silver badge

        Re: Another click in the wall

        [...] whereas OSX is being a quagmire of botched patches and ideas dreamt up by the PR droids and crowbarred in by beleagured Apple devs.

        In other words, just like Windows ME, Windows Vista, Windows 8(.x), Windows 10 ...?

        (Use the German pronunciation....)

    3. fidodogbreath Silver badge

      Re: Another click in the wall

      Remember when MacOS the platform of freedom and openness?

      The Mac recipe has always included a generous dollop of proprietary Applesauce®. Anyone remember Apple Desktop Bus? Or trying to get early Macs to print to anything other than an ImageWriter or LaserWriter? Or trying to read a Mac disk on a PC (or vice-versa)? Good times*.

      Apple doesn't even support full backup and restore anymore because APFS is so super secret that not even Apple has it working.

      Super Duper can do full backup and restore of APFS volumes up through Mojave, with Catalina support in beta. Carbon Copy Cloner also does APFS, and the current version is Catalina-friendly. (Some say that you can do a full restore from a Time Machine backup, but I've never had the nerve to try it.)

      * Not really.

      1. mrdalliard
        Happy

        Re: Another click in the wall

        >>(Some say that you can do a full restore from a Time Machine backup, but I've never had the nerve to try it.)

        Tried it about six months ago, worked flawlessly. I nuked my machine and did a clean install and used the backup to restore my apps and documents. The one time I relied upon it, it delivered, so I can't really complain.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Another click in the wall

          Mojave? APFS or an older system Sierra/High Sierra running on HFS+.

          The current issues with full backup and restore are regards APFS, not HFS+.

    4. Electronics'R'Us Bronze badge
      Stop

      Re: Another click in the wall

      As already noted, the Mac has never been open.

      For an amusing take (from the early 90s as I recall in the abort/retry/fail section of one of the popular mags at the time) see If Operating Systems Were Airlines

      Note: I am showing my age a bit by actually recalling all those operating systems.

    5. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: Another click in the wall

      "Remember when MacOS the platform of freedom and openness?"

      No, I don't remember this at all.

      What I remember is that Apple used to produce machines that were truly platforms of freedom and openness, but they stopped doing that when they introduced the Mac, and they've been increasingly locking things down further ever since.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Are those walls closing in?

    Making OSes and programs more secure is a good thing in general, but I don't like the sound of the way it is being done here.

    It's not necessarily a bad thing to have apps "blessed", as an indication that they have undergone security testing, but we must always have the right to run whatever programs we like (the way it has worked up until now, to show a warning on first run only, is not unreasonably onerous).

    I mean, if you're writing a program for your own fun and use (or as a more 'casual' freely-distributable program, not a part of a "big project"), would this mean that you, too, would have to send the program off for signing before you could run it? That would be a real impediment to using your computer as an actual computational machine, really not on!

    1. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: Are those walls closing in?

      "we must always have the right to run whatever programs we like"

      This is the key point. It is important that users can disable any and all security mechanisms that they wish.

      1. FrogsAndChips Silver badge

        Re: Are those walls closing in?

        Just for my peace of mind: you're talking about home users, right?

        1. JohnFen Silver badge

          Re: Are those walls closing in?

          By "user" here, I mean whoever owns and controls the machine. In a business environment, that would be the business.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Really?

    Last night I updated to Catalina. This morning after reading this, I opened LibreOffice. No problems, opened immediately without a dialogue.

    Must just be lucky.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Really?

      Which version of LO?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Really?

        I've also upgraded and have LO running without any issues - Version 6.3.2.2

        I have been asked to grant access to various file locations, but only once.

    2. Tim Anderson (Written by Reg staff)

      Re: Really?

      Different rules apply when it is installed before you upgrade to Catalina, result being it is trusted.

  15. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
    Pint

    Suits me just fine

    I ported a free app to Mac as a favour, just to keep a few customers happy, and that's been a nightmare to support; far more trouble than it was worth.

    This is a perfect chance to abandon that; "it worked fine, the app hasn't changed, if it doesn't work now it's an Apple issue; blame them". They can pay the full costs of a re-development and gaining Apple notarization, or buy a Windows or Linux box and run my app for free which will be a lot cheaper.

  16. tip pc Bronze badge

    10.15

    When’s os11 out?

    I remember the hype around new versions and being royally disappointed that things didn’t work properly, where bumped or needed new hardware.

    10 has had a long life, we need 11, maybe should have arrived at the turn off if 32 but with Catalina.

    By the way Catalina has been far more stable for me than 10.14.

  17. Lorin Thwaits

    What a fucking nightmare.

    Find your Steven Sinofsky, Apple. Find this saviour now.

    1. ma1010 Silver badge

      Sinofsky?

      If you're talking about Windows 7, okay, I agree completely. I still use 7 when I need Windows.

      But if you're talking about Windows 8, AAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!

      1. Lorin Thwaits

        Re: Sinofsky?

        Indeed, Windows 7 -- Sinofsky is part of the miracle that brought the Vista code base into something usable.

  18. ma1010 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Good Lord, did they hire Vista programmers?

    Shades of MS Vista's tedious "Are you sure?" "Are you really sure?" "Do you really, truly, actually want to run this application?" dialogs.

    That BS gave everyone "dialog fatigue" right away, but Mac seems even harder to work around. Open the directories in the terminal, then open the app in the terminal just so the app can access files? And I thought Linux permissions could be a PITA at times...

    1. DrXym Silver badge

      Re: Good Lord, did they hire Vista programmers?

      Vista wasn't stopping you run software, it was telling you it was doing potentially dangerous things. Part of the issue was Windows programs were notoriously awful for security at the time, expecting admin privileges, writing files and registry keys in the wrong place etc.

      It didn't do this in a particularly nice way from a user perspective but it probably had the desired effect of putting pain on software companies to fix their code.

      1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

        Re: Good Lord, did they hire Vista programmers?

        Vista wasn't stopping you run software, it was telling you it was doing potentially dangerous things. Part of the issue was Windows programs were notoriously awful for security at the time, expecting admin privileges, writing files and registry keys in the wrong place etc.

        It's a shame that Microsoft didn't do this with many of their applications. Data files in the Program Files path? All the damn time. Not acceptable.

    2. fidodogbreath Silver badge

      Re: Good Lord, did they hire Vista programmers?

      Mac seems even harder to work around

      On MacOS you only need to grant a permission to an app once; not every time you run the app.

  19. gerdesj Silver badge
    Windows

    Ozymandias

    Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

    Apples rot after a few days.

  20. DerekCurrie Bronze badge
    Unhappy

    Catalina, macOS 10.15, Suffers From Version 1.0 Syndrome

    IOW: Skip it for now. Apple's having similar problems with iOS 10.13 as well, which still has significant bugs, despite Apple's rapid updating.

    All in all, this has been the worst Autumn of new Apple OS updates in several years. They are clearly overwhelmed with problems. If only they took beta-testing seriously, which I contend from personal experience they have not. The result is forced beta-testing by their users, a horrific abuse of user's patience. Stay out of the fray until Apple's latest OS update cycle is actually Ready for Prime Time.

    Please wake up and keep up Apple.

    1. TVU

      Re: Catalina, macOS 10.15, Suffers From Version 1.0 Syndrome

      "All in all, this has been the worst Autumn of new Apple OS updates in several years. They are clearly overwhelmed with problems. If only they took beta-testing seriously, which I contend from personal experience they have not. The result is forced beta-testing by their users, a horrific abuse of user's patience. Stay out of the fray until Apple's latest OS update cycle is actually Ready for Prime Time"

      ^ There needs to be significantly improved quality assurance testing at Apple of both code and components (hi, keyboard!).

  21. Binraider666

    Reverse engineering?

    What, no-one has gone to the trouble of faking the notarisation cert yet? Pirates aren’t as efficient as they were in my day...

  22. DrXym Silver badge

    A great feeling for Mac owners

    Knowing that Apple controls what you may or may not install on your own computer.

    The next step of course will be to force all these "legacy" apps onto the store to "streamline" this process. After that it'll be preventing from you running anything else. After that it will be subjecting these "legacy" apps to the same onerous rules and conditions as other apps.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A great feeling for Mac owners

      Hey, Apple needs it's 30% cut.

  23. Tigra 07 Silver badge
    Meh

    Vista 2.0

    Sounds like Vista again.

    "Are you sure"

    "Are you very very sure"

  24. Big_Boomer Bronze badge

    FanBoiz, all your programs are belong to us!! <bwahahahaha>

    There, that should ensure my monthly down-vote quota gets met :-)

  25. Jamie Jones Silver badge

    False sense of security

    Well, we know how successful the apps stores have been in verifying apps, and not getting tricked by app updates.

    The same thing will happen here. Whilst Joe-user has (slowly!) been conditioned not to install software from "untrusted sources", now it will all be ok, just because of some cursory check by apple beforehand.

    Anything dodgy that manages to slip through the net will now be blindly trusted by users, whilst everything that actually fails testing should (without this system) also fail virus checks / OS security anyway.

    Also, if a passed app is later found to be dodgy, is there a revoking mechanism?

  26. hmv Bronze badge

    On the other hand

    ... what are you doing running release 1 of a new operating system version?

    I do because I'm expected to answer the question "is Catalina worth upgrading to?" (not until they fix it), but if you want to get real work done, don't upgrade on the first day it's released.

  27. Peter Christy

    And its not just Catalina...

    I'm not a Mac person, though I have the misfortune to own one - a late 2013 model with NVidia graphics. The monitor is superb, the rest of it offers middling performance for a top dollar price.

    I use it mainly for video editing, which relies heavily on NVidia's CUDA package to prop up the under-powered CPU. Unfortunately, with the introduction of 10.14.X (whatever it was called), NVidia support seems to have pretty well vanished - at least as far as CUDA is concerned.

    The tech forums were awash with complaints from customers who relied on CUDA for their livelihoods, but the only solution appears to be to stick with 10.13.X, and then jump through hoops to get CUDA working again. It isn't easy!

    And people accuse Linux of being "user hostile".....!

  28. Jerome

    You do not need to go to System Preferences to launch the app

    Right clicking gives you the option to open anyway.

    It has for several years now, since the arrival of GateKeeper, been the way to install and launch unsigned apps.

    And it worked for libreOffice on my Catalina running Mac seconds ago.

    Now it certainly would be much better if a properly notarized app didn't have those issues.

  29. NXM

    Bring back WordStar

    1. jake Silver badge

      WordStar went away? News to me ...

  30. Mike 137 Bronze badge

    Goodbye open source

    "[...] We control the horizontal and the vertical. We can deluge you with a thousand channels or expand one single image to crystal clarity and beyond. We can shape your vision to anything our imagination can conceive. [...]" (emphasis added)

    Once upon a time I could do what I damn well wanted with the computer I'd paid for. Now I'm supposed to accept being a puppet of the vendor "for my own protection"?

    Do these vendors really think they're responsible for our security, or is it merely a PR stunt to disguise a way of ensuring a continued revenue stream in a saturated market?

    1. fidodogbreath Silver badge

      Re: Goodbye open source

      The pinheads who can't keep themselves out of trouble have ruined computing for everyone.

  31. TheDataRecoverer

    Peak Apple.....

    Is it just me who feels that "peak Apple" was around 2014: the time when you could get a 'pro' machine with *gasp* ports, & connectivity...rrom for a decent SD card to expand storage, a properly decent keyboard, magsafe for power safety....

    I do seriously think they lost the plot right there, & everything since has taken them down to a pool of despair.

    Lawks, I might even consider a windows or chromebook when my 2014 MBPr 13" 512GB dies a death.....

    1. slartybartfast

      Re: Peak Apple.....

      I believe Apple as a company peaked before then. My 2011 MacBook Pro fell foul to the widespread and dreaded GPU failure that Apple staff refused to repair for me unless I coughed up £400 (replacing logicboard, no guarantee the problem won’t return). Since Jobs, of course we’ve been getting less ports, never ending price rises, more and more hardware issues and an OS that is morphing into iOS. Now it seems Apple no longer want things to ‘just work’.

    2. DuncanLarge Silver badge

      Re: Peak Apple.....

      I just got several 2012 Lenovo 410 and 420 (I also have a 420s) from work when we were replacing all the laptops. Picked up a few extra batteries and spare dvd drives etc. Maxed out the RAM, added an SSD, even found a battery that fits in the ultrabay.

      Installed Debian Linux wiping over windows, followed a short instructional on how to enable the TPM chip in the machines to act as a source of high quality random numbers to make better random numbers for encryption etc (totally optional but why not do it).

      For laptops I'm set for a very long time. They have a ton of ports and only really lack USB3, but I could add that using the expresscard slot if I really wanted to. I'm covered for all display options thanks to the DisplayPort port but I seriously doubt I'll need to use that as my use case for laptops is pretty limited especially when I'm at home as I have a PC, actually I have 3.

    3. fidodogbreath Silver badge

      Re: Peak Apple.....

      If you're concerned about vendor lockdown, a Chromebook probably isn't your best choice.

    4. NLCSGRV

      Re: Peak Apple.....

      The last truly "pro" hardware from Apple came out in 2012. Everything they have done since has been compromised in one way or another.

  32. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

    I don't have a problem with it. My 7-year-old Macbook runs pretty much flawlessly, unlike my Windows laptop. WIndows is getting better but MacOS makes it generally easier to work.

  33. bigtimehustler

    If you don't like this functionality there is a command line option which can be run which will restore the allow apps from anywhere option in the security preferences. Once selected, it works as before, allowing apps from anywhere. Just a bit of googling to get the info, no need to disable updates and throw the baby out with the bath water.

  34. HatHatHatHatHat

    coincidentally both oo and gimp are free...

  35. DuncanLarge Silver badge

    Wow

    So Apple have gone full Trusted Computing style on their users?

    I can see how its "will help" security but thats like fitting training wheels to everyones bikes to "improve" safety. It does improve safety but at the expense of the users ability to use the bike.

    Apple now basically tell you what you can and cant run on your no longer general purpose computer. Shhh, kid in the back asking "whats a computer?".

    The "dialogue fatigue" that users may get reminds me of the exact same thing that happened way back when Vista came out. Microsoft learned many lessons back then and now executables that are not signed simply tell you so and give you the option to run them or not. Next time you run the executable you get that message again, annoying yes but not like what I've heard Apple is doing.

    I can imagine the stories we will hear of the certificates being lost, allowing all sorts of malware to be approved, or perhaps a bug in an update actually lets the exe run even when you select to move it to the bin. Or even the certificate chain gets borked for something like Sony Vegas or something preventing many ordinary youtubers from editing their videos.

    WIll this result in a mass exodus to systems that allow you to do what you want with your computer?

    I doubt it will considering the hold Apple has on its fans.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgFbqSYdNK4

    1. slartybartfast

      Re: Wow

      ‘I doubt it will considering the hold Apple has on its fans.’

      Or people heavily invested in Apple’s ecosystem. Not always easy to switch systems.

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    But why would they want to let you run Free software when they could sell you theirs at a very reasonable price?

    1. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

      Apple's office suite doesn't cost anything.

      1. jake Silver badge

        "Apple's office suite"

        You mean iWork? I know of it, having evaluated it for clients occasionally over the last decade or so. However, while I still see evidence of it's predecessor (AppleWorks) being in use, I quite literally have never seen it in the wild. I have never even seen documents produced by it in the wild. Does anybody outside Cupertino actually use it?

  37. kschrock

    Transitions

    Interesting OS choice discussion. I see a lot of "I'd try Linux but I need ..." comments. I switched fully to Linux (Mint 17) over 4 years ago and had the same problem, but it was easily fixed by running Win 7 in Virtualbox. Visual Studio, Sea Clear, Photo Sketcher? No problem. Photoshop? Why not? A nice thing about all this is portability. When I installed Mint 19, I used it to install Virtualbox, then copied over the 7Pro.vbox file and fired it up. OS, apps and data, all there, all ready to go.

    Virtualbox supports OS X.

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    i moved all my macs to the bin last year

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2019