back to article We read the Brexit copyright notices so you don't have to… No more IP freely, ta very much

Among the daily two-dozen or so government updates on Brexit progress slipped in as everyone went to the pub on Friday were a bunch considering the impact on copyright and intellectual property. First up: anyone using an EU satellite decoder to access programmes included in a UK broadcast (to avoid a charge) will be breaking …

  1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

    Fraud?

    anyone using an EU satellite decoder to access programmes included in a UK broadcast (to avoid a charge) will be breaking the rules after Brexit.

    Surely that would be fraud, and breaking the rules anyway, even without Brexit?

    1. Warm Braw Silver badge

      Re: Fraud?

      In 2011, the Court of Justice of the European Union ruled that section 297 should not apply where it prevented persons in the UK from using legitimate decoder devices intended for use elsewhere in the EU, even where they do so to avoid a charge for the relevant UK broadcasting service.

      This is because such a restriction is inconsistent with the EU’s ‘freedom of services’, provided by the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

      It says here.

      You might remember the case involving the Premier League. Basically it's about territorial licensing.

      1. sebbb

        Re: Fraud?

        "consider instead purchasing the relevant UK satellite broadcast package to view the programmes" muahahahahah I think I'll just give up TV, license, decoder to view my italian channels and just wait praying no hunger will come before my relocation to Germany in June.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hmm

    Nothing good coming from Brexit. Noted.

    1. Semtex451 Silver badge

      Re: Hmm

      Thought I was on the Grauniad site, but noticed there were no begging letters.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hmm

      Judging by the downvotes you've upset some unicorn chasers.

  3. Zog_but_not_the_first Silver badge
    Trollface

    Yum...

    This Brexit thing sounds lovely. Can we have some more of it?

    {Sarcasm, obviously}

    1. Ken 16 Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Yum...

      Not until you've finished your first one.

  4. dervheid

    Bonfire

    of the Privileges...

    And rights...

    And Protections...

    But hey, Blue Passports...

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Bonfire

      And no red tape of course.

      1. a pressbutton

        Red tape

        If you want no red tape, you need to fill in the correct form on the govt website as it is now blue tape.

        Supplies of blue tape may be rationed in the short term and you need to apply to the local planning office which is in the locked basement of your local library which may or may not be open when you visit it.

        1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

          Re: Supplies of blue tape may be rationed

          I'm sure there will be plenty available from Ireland but do not post how you got it on social media.

          1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

            Re: Supplies of blue tape may be rationed

            I'm sure there will be plenty available from Ireland

            That will be green tape ;)

          2. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Supplies of blue tape may be rationed

            Ireland? Surely everyone knows the producers of the right shade of blue tape are to be found in France.

            1. The Dogs Meevonks

              Re: Supplies of blue tape may be rationed

              I was of the (possibly misguided) understanding that France only made white tape.

              1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

                Re: Supplies of blue tape may be rationed

                Extremely misguided, just look at their national flag, it does contain blue. But maybe you were confused by their battle flag.

        2. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

          Re: locked basement of your local library

          Not in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard"?

          1. a pressbutton

            Re: locked basement of your local library

            my bad memory

            or perhaps that leopard is the incarnation of project fear.

            1. BebopWeBop Silver badge
              Pint

              Re: locked basement of your local library

              I am going to lay in a supply for the only rational reaction to the mess - Project Beer.

          2. Chronos Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: locked basement of your local library

            Absolutely not. First you'll have to fill in form DA-726 part A (Ownership of Dangerous Animal - Imaginary) for the leopard. You'll also have to register your filing cabinet and provide the Home Office with a master key for RIPA purposes.

            Incidentally, unused lavatories will now be subject to an extension of the bedroom tax.

            Icon. Or is it?

        3. Warm Braw Silver badge

          Re: Red tape

          It is, in fact, that bad if you have a Northern Ireland business, it would appear. Even the Brexit secretary has had to admit, after an initial denial, that NI businesses will have to submit customs "exit" forms for goods shipped to the UK.

          1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
            Stop

            Re: Red tape

            I'm glad I'm not the one sorting out the mess the UK mainland company I'm working for has. They sell stuff to a company in Northern Ireland which sells into Ireland, who sldo buy stuff from Ireland which they then sell to us, and other EU member states, as do we.

            So what was a simple and straight forward arrangement is going to get incredibly complicated to the detriment of everyone, but particularly that Northern Ireland company.

            And, even when trading directly with the Irish company, it's not certain that goods traded with the Northern Ireland company won't be considered 'at risk of entering the EU' and have duty applied accordingly which has to then be reclaimed.

            The TL;DR synopsis on their last impact assessment was a simple but accurate; "fuck knows".

            1. Dr. Mouse Silver badge

              Re: Red tape

              it's not certain that goods traded with the Northern Ireland company won't be considered 'at risk of entering the EU' and have duty applied accordingly which has to then be reclaimed

              Actually, if I have understood correctly, it is fairly certain that they will have duty applied which needs to be reclaimed.

              1. Aitor 1 Silver badge

                Re: Red tape

                Getting charged duty and then being able to reclaim it is horrible and can make a business unprofitable.. as you are essentially financing the gvnt.. at your own cost, both in actual cost and also debt and ratings.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Red tape

              "I'm glad I'm not the one sorting out the mess the UK mainland company I'm working for has."

              A young friend working for a small family firm voted Leave. After the referendum he started to get concerned about the impact of Brexit on the company. They are a Birmingham manufacturing company with essential components coming from various European countries. They also export to Europe.and the rest of the world.

              He asked the relevant person in the company about the potential situation - and now he is not so sure he will have a job before long. UK business leaders seem to be predicting that a lot of such small companies could fold. Similarly the Farmers' organisations are predicting many small farmers in Leave-voting areas will fold too.

              1. Aitor 1 Silver badge

                Re: Red tape

                Brexit voters feeling the pain is not a big concern for me, a dirty immigrant.

                But while the leave areas and demographics are the ones that are feeling it more, it is not only people who voted for this who are being impacted, and I do try to feel bad about it.

                I would say that the worst problem this arises is not economic. It is a big divide in society.

                1. HelpfulJohn

                  Re: Red tape

                  "I would say that the worst problem this arises is not economic. It is a big divide in society."

                  I was wandering about in my town centre when I bumped into a pack of "Leaving is bloody daft" protesters. They were polite, informed, nice and willing to discuss the benefits of Grosse Yurp and our being in it, even when I mentioned the dubious notions the Leave guys had lied about to promote division and insularity.

                  A passing Leave supporter, in contrast, yelled two swear-word filled sentences that insulted our habits, matrilineal ancestries and general intelligence then stormed off in a huff. He did not bother to differentiate between me, a temporary guest of the group and the hosting group itself. He was an equal-opportunity disliker.

                  What that says about either position is nothing. Two data points in a population of many millions are insufficient for generating valid statistics.

                  But it *does* show that there is anger under the surface and that Brexit, whether it happen or not, is not going to be fun.

                  It has the feeling of a Saturday Old Firm match in Glasgow, only a lot less friendly.

                  I'm thinking of stocking up on food before the government cancels "Coronation Street" because one of the I.P. owners is foreign and hasn't paid import duty.

              2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                Re: Red tape

                "Similarly the Farmers' organisations are predicting many small farmers in Leave-voting areas will fold too."

                Based on our local news here in NE of England, in the lead up to the referendum the farmers were strongly in favour of Leave based on complex EU subsidy systems, claims that other EU countries got better agricultural deals (France was named regularly) and masses of red tape. It was quite amazing to see the abrupt U-turn once the result was in. I suspect a lot of special interest groups voted Leave as a protest to get their views aired on the assumption that Leave had no chance of winning.

          2. Andrew Moore

            Re: Red tape

            "NI businesses will have to submit customs "exit" forms for goods shipped to the UK."

            That's only bad for the DUP, which means it's good for everyone else.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Red tape

              "That's only bad for the DUP, which means it's good for everyone else."

              The fallout certainly must increase support for NI re-uniting with the Republic.

          3. Spanners Silver badge
            Devil

            Re: Red tape

            "goods shipped to the UK"

            Don't worry about those. They will become much less common after JRM has shorted Sterling unto oblivion.

        4. TimR

          Re: Red tape

          You forgot to mention the leopard....

          Aladdin Sane - OK, you beat me to it!

        5. Tim99 Silver badge
          Coat

          Re: Red tape

          Red tape is a very British thing - Its colour is actually pink - A bit like hunting pink (coats) are actually red...

      2. Snapper
        Joke

        Re: Bonfire

        Of course.

    2. TimR

      Re: Bonfire

      And, of course, the EU made us change our passports from good old British blue to burgundy - NOT!

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/22/blue-passports-taking-back-control-imposed-league-of-nations-burgundy-passport-eu

      1. Benson's Cycle

        Re: Bonfire

        I admit to have renewed my passport a bit early to make sure I got a red one.

        I was happy for a moment this afternoon when I saw the local Brexiter-in-chief (the one who assured me when Article 50 was invoked that it would all be really simple and I told him he just had no idea at all just of the commercial issues alone) walking across the car park looking the most miserable I have ever seen him. But because I am not a total bastard I did not wind down the window and shout "Bercow rules!". I just thought it.

        1. BebopWeBop Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: Bonfire

          My Irish passport will carry on being burgundy

    3. A.P. Veening Silver badge

      Re: Bonfire

      But hey, French Navy Blue Passports...

      FTFY ;)

      1. IGotOut

        Re: Bonfire

        We're getting passports from the French Navy?

        1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

          Re: Bonfire

          We're getting passports from the French Navy?

          Nope, those new passports will be Navy Blue and will be produced by a French-Dutch company, which won the bid, and will do so in France, thus "French Navy Blue", should really be "French, Navy Blue" for grammatical correctness but that is not quite as nice a trigger. Just today I heard a rumour production might be shifted to Poland, but I don't know whether that is true or not.

          1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge
            Coat

            Re: Bonfire

            I thought it was Norwegian Blue.

            I'll get me coat. The one with the dead parrot in the pocket. please

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Pocket (PC?)

              "I'll get me coat. The one with the dead parrot in the pocket. please"

              Not got a johnson in your pocket then?

              Maybe not, he's supposedly dead in a ditch by now, according to his previously announced commitments.

    4. This post has been deleted by its author

    5. Andrew Moore

      Re: Bonfire

      My Irish passport arrived last week, so I'm safe.

    6. Mike 137 Bronze badge

      Re: Bonfire

      but of course this is "taking back control"

    7. steviebuk Silver badge

      Re: Bonfire

      Blue passports that will be made in France. Ironic.

  5. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

    TL; DR

    We're fucked

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: TL; DR

      I love this comment. Appears often enough on anything that is nothing but exposes exaggeration that is the remain. I wonder if its a Pavlovian experiment being conducted by El Reg.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: TL; DR

        Drool, drool.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: TL; DR

        Any yet you post absolutely nothing to counter it... just as how no Brexiter can explain one single measurable thing that will improve post-Brexit.

        1. heyrick Silver badge

          Re: TL; DR

          "one single measurable thing that will improve post-Brexit"

          The ability to more easily kick out Muslims, people whose skin isn't somewhere between white and pink, people who talk with unusual accents, and generally anybody that is declared undesirable, unwanted, yer-not-from-around-ere-are-you?

          Hmm, this all sounds a little too familiar...

          1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

            Re: TL; DR

            The really funny thing is, is that that already is quite easy, just never done.

            1. Muscleguy Silver badge

              Re: TL; DR

              Indeed just as the UK never enforces the EU rule that you have between 3 and 6 months (locally determined) to find a job when you move to another EU country or you have to leave. The UK never signed up to or implemented that. So much for a hostile environment.

              Of course the UK doesn't know who is or isn't here anyway. It STILL doesn't count everybody out. If you leave via a coach on a ferry as many Poles for eg do there isn't the staff or time to check everyone leaving. Which is why that group of academics instead counted the number of NI numbers issued to adults which have not been used for some time and assumed these were workers who had come and left again.

              Meanwhile it seems that apples have been left to rot on orchard trees due to a lack of folk to pick 'em as the Poles etc have gone back home as Brexit looms not wanting to pay eye-watering Home Office charges for the right to stay.

              Back in NZ the govt issues special visas to people from Vanuatu and other Pacific Islands to come and pick fruit in the season. The govt there has the power to require you to only live and work in particular areas. You want to emigrate as a GP? fine but you have to practice in a rural area for 5 years. Sounds bucolic? who are you going to talk to? Can you handle The Silence. Can your spouse and kids?

              1. Steve 39

                Re: TL; DR

                Not quite true as you can live in other EU countries for as long as you like as an EU citizen without having a job, as long as you:

                "have sufficient resources for you and your family during the time you want to stay in your new country"

                and

                "have comprehensive health insurance"

                I agree with the point though, had the UK implemented such policies, we might not be in the situation we are now. Looking at places to live for up to a year next year, Spain and Denmark have this policy and I'm sure many others do too. Add the UK having "free at the point of delivery" residency-based healthcare, it should have done more to implement such rules.

                1. DavCrav Silver badge

                  Re: TL; DR

                  "Add the UK having "free at the point of delivery" residency-based healthcare, it should have done more to implement such rules."

                  The European Court already put the kibosh on that. Because the NHS is free at point of delivery, the Court said that there were no requirements for private health insurance in the UK.

                  One of the main issues (for me, not for Brexiteers) with the EU was the way their regulations didn't take into account the different systems that existed in different countries. It seemed as though the authors of regulations looked at the situation in France, Germany and Belgium, and then just assumed everyone else had the same system.

                  1. Steve 39

                    Re: TL; DR

                    I agree, it certainly should have been taken into account but I think UK politicians share the "blame" for it not being resolved properly. If that meant changing how the NHS worked, for example, then so be it.

                  2. heyrick Silver badge

                    Re: TL; DR

                    "their regulations didn't take into account the different systems that existed in different countries"

                    They don't need to. The regulation is very simple - EU citizens get treated the same as natives. If the NHS is free, it is free. The end.

                    Of course, many of these problems would be utter non issues if English people didn't have such a phobia of carrying identity cards like, well, everywhere else.

                    1. DavCrav Silver badge

                      Re: TL; DR

                      "They don't need to. The regulation is very simple - EU citizens get treated the same as natives. If the NHS is free, it is free. The end."

                      Yes, and it ended with Brexit, so slow hand clap there.

                      "Of course, many of these problems would be utter non issues if English people didn't have such a phobia of carrying identity cards like, well, everywhere else."

                      Or the EU could grow up and realize that not all regulations can work across 28/27 completely different countries.

                      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                        Re: TL; DR

                        A residency registry* is pretty necessary in a country of 66+ million people. Are we supposed to be proud we can't get our shit together? How difficult is it for you to tell your local council you've moved in or out of their area and for your local council to keep a list of people?

                        * A proper one, not the hostile environment which appears to be a daily raffle down at the Home Office.

                    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                      Re: TL; DR

                      "Of course, many of these problems would be utter non issues if English people didn't have such a phobia of carrying identity cards like, well, everywhere else."

                      Many EU countries have been under fascist, communist or other dictatorial rule within living memory so in general their governments are quite wary of using citizen ID cards for nefarious purposes because they and their populace understand how they can be abused. Here in jolly olde Blighty, that's not the case and we know damned well that any government ID card system will be abused by every jumped up little Hitler with an ounce of power.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: TL; DR

                "Indeed just as the UK never enforces the EU rule that you have between 3 and 6 months (locally determined) to find a job when you move to another EU country or you have to leave. The UK never signed up to or implemented that. So much for a hostile environment."

                It's not at all as easy as you try to make it sound. Somebody can't just be kicked out just because they're not employed after 3 or 6 months. The actual condition to stay is to not be a burden for the social assistance and to have medical insurance.

                "for those who are not workers or self-employed, the right of residence depends on their having sufficient resources not to become a burden on the host Member State’s social assistance system, and on them having sickness insurance."

                https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-movement-of-workers

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: TL; DR

                  Somebody can't just be kicked out just because they're not employed after 3 or 6 months.

                  The Netherlands don't have any problem kicking out the unwanted unwashed. They (generously) give 12 weeks from the date of entry to get a job that pays enough to sustain the immigrant and any associated family members. If they fail to achieve this, they're deported - at their own expense - to their country of origin, even if their originating country is at war.

                  This has the beneficial effect of not allowing the Netherlands to fill up with undesirable, indolent, ill-educated, useless, ethnically challenged "people". The Danes, Swedes and Norwegians have similar rules, but the Swedes (in particular) are reaping the rewards of not applying their own rules.

                  AC, since I have to deport some of these unwanted unwashed tomorrow.......

              3. Peter2 Silver badge

                Re: TL; DR

                Meanwhile it seems that apples have been left to rot on orchard trees due to a lack of folk to pick 'em as the Poles etc have gone back home as Brexit looms not wanting to pay eye-watering Home Office charges for the right to stay.

                Mmm. Nothing to do with the farmers in question basing their business plan around the availability of exploiting cheap labour and then transferring the healthcare costs of injuries sustained during their employment to the state healthcare system instead of applying available automation like other countries do then?

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGj9Ap0iaZw

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBBkW6C_KOA

                Cheap labour holds back investment in equipment and productivity. It also prevents job creation; as you rightly point out nobody who has been educated to A level standard wants to go and pick fruit. However, if your hiring less people then you can afford to buy productivity equipment, which creates more skilled jobs in manufacturing, servicing and use.

                1. whileI'mhere

                  Re: TL; DR

                  Some fruit is not susceptible to automated picking. But carry on with your sweeping and inaccurate generalisations...

                  1. Peter2 Silver badge

                    Re: TL; DR

                    There is absolutely nothing like showing that people have no argument than them creating a straw man argument to demolish.

                    Some fruit doesn't have automated harvesting equipment available for it, no. But that's really not very relevant, since the OP mentioned apples, and I demonstrated a couple of different types of automated apple picking equipment. And what is grown on a commercial basis in the UK that's not capable of automation? The list may reflect somewhat on why certain crops are grown on a commercial basis.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: TL; DR

                      Since the OP mentioned apples and you posted links to automated apple picking equipment it's worth noting that automation is only suitable for certain end use scenarios. For instance, if the apples are to be processed (cider, flavourings, juice, pies and the like) then automation is fine as bruising is not important, however if the apples are for the consumer fresh fruit market then hand picking remains the only viable option to avoid spoiling the produce during the harvesting.

                      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468014119301943

            2. Jamie Jones Silver badge
              Unhappy

              Re: TL; DR

              The ironic thing is that the "Muslims" they are referring to are generally from non-EU countries, who are already restricted by UK law (If a brexitter disagrees, ask them why so many try to sneak in via the chunnel or in the backs of lorries).

              Post Brexit, the French won't have a duty to help is with this, so we are likely to get more coming in.

              Coupled that with the EU- rules already mentioned above by "MuscleGuy" that we could remove EU nationals not pulling their weight, and the whole net effect of brexit on immigration will be to increase it.

              That and the general mayhem that will effect brexitters first means the poor dears will not have a good time... They'll still blame the EU though.

              I even had that stupid "lisbon treaty" bullshit sent to me on the weekend with the message "Did you know this?" - How can anyone for one second believe some of this shit is true? https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

              TL; DR "Aladdin Sane" is right

          2. robidy

            Re: TL; DR

            s/pink/gammon/

          3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: TL; DR

            people who talk with unusual accents

            Do we get to deport anyone who speaks Mockney? If so, count me in!

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: TL; DR

              Do we get to deport southerners from Yorkshire?

            2. Spanners Silver badge
              Alien

              Re: TL; DR

              people who talk with unusual accents

              Do we get to deport anyone who speaks Mockney? If so, count me in!

              I would much rather deport those with RP...

              1. a pressbutton

                Re: TL; DR

                Feeling conflicted

                The Archers would certainly change - no more authentic borsetshire gibberish.

                Joe Grundy made his exit stage left at a good moment

                RIP.

          4. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: TL; DR

            "The ability to more easily kick out Muslims, people whose skin isn't somewhere between white and pink, [...]"

            New Home Secretary Priti Patel campaigned for Leave with the promise to replace "unentitled" EU immigrants with "more entitled" (Empire) immigrants - from particularly the Indian subcontinent.

            India has made it clear that any post-Brexit trade deal must include freer movement to the UK for their nationals. Australia and IIRC China have also made similar noises. I would guess that Liam Fox had a similar message from other countries on his globe-trotting post-Brext trade expedition.

            My Leave-voting relatives blamed the EU for local enclaves of immigrants from the Indian subcontinent. They still stick their fingers in their ears and say "fake news!".

            1. DavCrav Silver badge

              Re: TL; DR

              "Australia and IIRC China have also made similar noises."

              That would be the same Australia that has a virtual hermetic seal around their border?

              And who actually wants a free trade agreement with China? So tariffs of their goods are reduced, and they still find some excuse not to buy anything from us? No thanks.

          5. Dan 55 Silver badge
            Coat

            Re: TL; DR

            people who talk with unusual accents

            Eleven!

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: TL; DR

          > just as how no Brexiter can explain one single measurable thing that will improve post-Brexit.

          It's done wonders for banking and financial services in Paris, Frankfurt, Berlin and Amsterdam - also simplified implementation of the relocalisation agenda in Japan, accelerated Irish unification and ensured Scotland will vote for independence.

          Very few British governments have had such monumental, multi-trillion dollar influence in recent years.

          1. DavCrav Silver badge

            Re: TL; DR

            "It's done wonders for banking and financial services in Paris, Frankfurt, Berlin and Amsterdam"

            It hasn't done that much for those centres. It's made banking cost more across the EU, since it's now decentralized and more difficult.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: TL;DR

          Sigh.

          Ok, let one of the munchkins who actually deals with the EU on a day-to-day basis tell you *two* measurable things that will improve post-Brexit.

          1) I have responsibility for team recruitment. We are a well-known company, and the best engineers come from all around the world; being mathematically complex software many of them are Indian, some Russian or Chinese. Roughly half the team, which is fairly normal for a techie company now. This is a good thing.

          For every non-EU person I decide to hire, I have to put together a justification document, listing the details of least three EU nationals considered for the post and reasons for rejection. This is kept on file, and regularly checked by the EU. They can and do *suggest* that you interview EU nationals they have on file for the job title “Software Engineer”, if they deem your reasons not good enough. If you don’t at least interview those, you get prosecuted. The short version is that there is a skilled non-EU migrants quota, and unless you pass the hoops it’s deemed fraudulent. Yup, failing to interview a gap-year Portuguese in favour of hiring a PhD from India can genuinely result in you ending up in court. Example not randomly chosen.

          I loathe this system, and Brexit will end this particular bit of admin hell.

          2) I often need to send staff to discuss engineering issues on an EU contract. It’s a very open secret that non-whites are simply not welcome in Brussels. The last time I sent someone non-white, I got a call from the EU Technical Officer to say “I don’t want you to send the lazy guy again. Do you understand. Not the lazy guy or any of your other monkeys”. He’s not “one bad apple”, this is the same with most that I have met. It’s been my disgusting job to *sort out my staff rota on racial grounds* to avoid this situation and allow us to keep our contract.

          After Brexit, I won’t have to do this any more.

          AC for obvious reasons

          1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

            Re: TL;DR

            The last time I sent someone non-white, I got a call from the EU Technical Officer to say “I don’t want you to send the lazy guy again. Do you understand. Not the lazy guy or any of your other monkeys”.

            The correct solution to this is to sent somebody with the following qualifications:

            White

            Male

            Lazy

            Incompetent

            Obnoxious

            Rude

            Only speaking some really unintelligible dialect

            Bonus points if he is also gay.

            .

            Besides that, make sure you know the name of that lout in Brussels and those of his two immediate superiors. Send a complaint to his immediate superior, next time go one level higher. With enough complaints, that lout will get promoted sideways to a location where he is harmless to normal people.

          2. H in The Hague Silver badge

            Re: TL;DR

            "This is kept on file, and regularly checked by the EU. "

            By which EU body? Or UK agency?

            ". If you don’t at least interview those, you get prosecuted.

            By which EU body? Or UK agency?

            It's a bit beyond my ken, but I thought the EU just requires the UK to allow citizens from other EU countries to work here at the same conditions as UK nationals (i.e. freedom of movement). Admission of non-EU citizens is a matter for the local legislation of the country concerned.

            "I loathe this system, and Brexit will end this particular bit of admin hell."

            I doubt that, you'll then have to fill in forms to explain why you didn't employ a British national.

            Actually your second argument gives the impression that tge paperwork you are complaining about relates to EU contracts. That's different from general EU regulations. But that admin hassle will indeed end as UK companies will be at a disadvantage when concluding contracts with the EU. They will also be at a disadvantage when it comes to general public procurement in the EU - that's going to affect some of my clients. So they'll move the work from the UK to other countries :(

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: TL;DR

            >After Brexit, I won’t have to do this any more.

            Indeed, since post-Brexit your UK company's focus will be on redundancy, not recruitment.

            In future your EU contracts will obviously be handled by your company's EU subsidiary or they will be lost. The EU will continue to favour EU nationals over non-EU nationals - the only difference will be that British workers will also have third nation status.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: TL;DR

              @AC

              "In future your EU contracts will obviously be handled by your company's EU subsidiary or they will be lost."

              He did seem to suggest a global requirement for workers based on skills and ability not on racism, isolationism and opposition to foreigners.

              "The EU will continue to favour EU nationals over non-EU nationals"

              And so the EU are racist but we should be because? Or should we look globally for the right skills?

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: TL;D

              Why? I thought this was a tech sector website? What fraction of *your* company’s exports go to EU?

              If you answer more than 10%, you are either very atypical or you just have been blindly accepting news reports rather than asking your marketing bods or reading the published accounts.

              The truth is: APAC is vital core business, >50%. The US is second tier but important, 30%. EU is maybe 10% and falling, while rest of world is 10% climbing.

              Unfortunately, I have lots of contacts in the EU, and didn’t run fast enough when I got “promoted” to run a particular department focusing on EU. More fool me.

          4. hammarbtyp Silver badge

            Re: TL;DR

            Dear AC

            I too work for a well known multi-national company.

            Firstly the best engineers are not exclusive to any part of the world. I would bet our German engineers against any in embedded and industrial control development. Our 2 best power system engineers were Greek, until they got nicked by Jaguar Landrover. The biggest obstacle is cultural and language, this is where we find that certain cultures work better together. Skill set is one thing, but it is generally easier to work with say a set of German colleagues in project development than say India. That is not to say we don't use both, but years of outsourcing has shown you cannot just swap groups out

            But to your points

            1) I hear this from some Brexiters that one of the upsides is that know we can pick and choose from a global pool instead of being limited to just Europe. Does anyone out there truly believe that the same people who seem offended that a pole wishes to speak Polish on a UK street is going to be perfectly happy to open immigration to all parts of the world, especially the none-white bits? Its a classic bit of Gas lighting. What we will find is that it will be increasingly difficult to recruit from anywhere outside the UK, and those who come will be treated as second class citizens. Not only that but skilled UK workers will be locked out of the wider European market, making co-operation and joint projects more difficult.

            2) I have never had an issue with sending non-white engineers to France or Germany, while we have had racism to some Indian engineers here. Maybe you should of fought back a bit more. In truth it sounds more like a cultural problem at your company rather than a Belgium issue, but hey if they people like you in HR, maybe thats not a surprise

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: TL;DR

              @hammarbtyp

              "I hear this from some Brexiters that one of the upsides is that know we can pick and choose from a global pool instead of being limited to just Europe. Does anyone out there truly believe that the same people who seem offended that a pole wishes to speak Polish on a UK street is going to be perfectly happy to open immigration to all parts of the world, especially the none-white bits?"

              So brexiters are saying we can look globally and get the skills, the remainer (you) is claiming brexiters are racist and wont want that, so your solution is what? To remain in the EU which you have just defined as isolationist and against foreigners? Since brexiters are supposed to be the anti foreigner and I get this dumb unthinking accusation plenty because I voted leave would you explain to me why your anti foreigner solution (remain) is better than the non-anti foreigner brexit?

              "What we will find is that it will be increasingly difficult to recruit from anywhere outside the UK"

              Why? If his difficulty is hiring skills and ability due to EU anti-foreigner isolationism why would it be harder once we leave that? Or as I have put it in the past- why is my EU friend better than my African, American, Russian, Asian, Middle Eastern friends just because they come from the promised land?

              "Not only that but skilled UK workers will be locked out of the wider European market, making co-operation and joint projects more difficult."

              EU dont like foreigners so we should stay in their borders where we must also lock out foreigners? Not very inclusive is it?

              1. E_Nigma

                Re: TL;DR

                All I've ever heard from Brexiters is (in no particular order):

                1) EU makes everything complicated;

                2) EU costs us too much;

                3) we've allowed too many of *insert minorities of choice, essentially, the non-British*.

                I direct your attention to the point no 3. The pesky non.Brits are a thorn in Brexiters' side because they supposedly mooch off the British social protection and healthcare system and because they drive the price of labour down (!) as they are used to a lower living standard. So I will be honestly shocked if, post Brexit, instead of explaining why you skipped that Portuguese taking a gap year, you'll have to do the same for a guy from Bradford who's done some Open University.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: TL;DR

              1) You are obviously correct that there is a racist vote in the UK, which is concentrated on the Brexit side. I can’t pick my running mates, and that’s basically just an ad hominem argument.

              However, you should ask around within your non-EU work colleagues what their Brexit view is directly. According to rhetoric, Brexit is anti-immigrant, but actually I have found that they are fairly equally split. This is a huge difference to the British and EU engineering staff, who are 90% Remain. Perhaps there is a difference of perspective.

              1A) No, none of the folks being recruited from India have asked about Brexit at all, either me or HR, and the mix hasn’t changed.

              Interesting data point observing the demographics from where I sit. The politics haven’t changed anything much. What changes things is which recruitment agencies we use. Take that as you will.

              2) A problem at our end? Yes, I could whistleblow. That would result in the cancellation of contracts, and likely several people in my team would lose their jobs. And I won’t lie, maybe myself.I have responsibilities. We all make choices, and there’s more than one reason I don’t sleep easy in this job.

              I don’t think you understand how companies really work. I’ve had “the chat” both with my boss and my HR. The official line is “do whatever you think is right. But remember we need to size the headcount to your teams workload according to the contracts we have”. So there it is.

          5. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: TL;DR

            @AC

            "It’s a very open secret that non-whites are simply not welcome in Brussels"

            The UK is one of the most welcoming and non-racist countries in Europe. Some people seem to think that will vanish because we leave the EU or something but as a trading nation it is something we are pretty good about.

            1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

              Re: The UK is one of the most welcoming and non-racist countries in Europe

              Racism is everywhere, buddy, and if you think you're country has the least of it, you're blinding yourself to the truth.

              And besides, you just have to look at UKIP to know that what you said is wrong.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: The UK is one of the most welcoming and non-racist countries in Europe

                @Pascal Monett

                "Racism is everywhere, buddy, and if you think you're country has the least of it, you're blinding yourself to the truth."

                One of the least. That doesnt mean that there isnt any racism, although what do you mean racism everywhere? In your vicinity or in general?

                "And besides, you just have to look at UKIP to know that what you said is wrong."

                What should that prove? Go on.

            2. Dan 55 Silver badge

              Re: TL;DR

              The UK is one of the most welcoming and non-racist countries in Europe.

              Indeed, they even accept you if you're bright red, over 50, and outrageously bigoted.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: TL;DR

                @Dan 55

                "Indeed, they even accept you if you're bright red, over 50, and outrageously bigoted."

                And so very accepting of different kinds of people. Yes.

          6. Charlie Clark Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: TL;DR

            For every non-EU person I decide to hire, I have to put together a justification document, listing the details of least three EU nationals considered for the post and reasons for rejection.

            This is not an EU requirement but devolved to national governments who never ceded control. If I look at the software engineers in the companies round (Huawei, E-ON, Trivago) here they are teeming with non-EU nationals. This is also why Kensington and Chelsea is teeming with foreign oligarchs: the UK says you're very welcome if you spend more than £ 1 million on property.

            The last time I sent someone non-white

            And yet you put your faith in people who crow in parliament over how much better Eton is than Winchester? As Rees-Mogg did earlier this year.

            For many, though certainly not for all, racism was one of the reasons to vote to leave the EU, viz. at least one poster suggesting a horde of a million Turks eager to move to the UK.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: TL;DR

              Charlie! You're surely not saying that someone is blaming the EU for something that is the UKs responsibility?

              Surely they never be stupid enough to do that!

              /more sarc

              1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                Re: TL;DR

                Sure, I blame the EU for mad cow disease. If the EU hadn't allowed Maggie to reduce standards before feeding processed sheep to cows then it would never have happened.

                Luckily we can start looking forward to having our farmers compete with free marketeers such as the US. With out ballooning budget deficit we're well equipped to stand by our farmers…

                What really gets me, BoJo is such a terrible speaker off-the-cuff and seems to have no grasp of policy or procedure why is this entitled bumbler and the rest of the B-team so popular?

                1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

                  Re: TL;DR

                  That's what gets me. The whole lot of them are a bunch of incompetent, self-serving, unprincipled liars... Our very own Trump administration.

                  Whatever you think of Corbyn or anyone else, I can't see how anyone would like to see any of this horrid mess anywhere other than prison.

                  And to add to your first point, I blame the EU for brexit. If there was no EU, we'd not be in it, therefore we'd not be leaving it!

                  Simple!

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: TL; DR

          > just as how no Brexiter can explain one single measurable thing that will improve post-Brexit.

          The new Digital Services Tax was delayed while we waited for the EU to introduce its own version, but in the end we went ahead anyway.

          We're not alone: France, Spain and Italy have all decided to press ahead with their own equivalents without (or despite) waiting for the EU.

          Citation

          Disclaimer: the OP asked for one thing. I am in no way suggesting that this one thing on its own justifies leaving or remaining.

        5. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: TL; DR

          @AC

          "Any yet you post absolutely nothing to counter it"

          Counter what? That is the best part of the comment, it has no actual content. Its just a reaction comment to the word brexit that provides nothing to the discussion. Hence the question of it being Pavlovian.

    2. A.P. Veening Silver badge

      Re: TL; DR

      We're fucked

      The correct term is "screwed without the benefit of getting laid". And you aren't kissed either.

      1. Kane Silver badge

        Re: TL; DR

        Plus, no cab fair for the journey home.

        1. heyrick Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: TL; DR

          Fare. But the prices taxis charge these days are anything but fair.

    3. phuzz Silver badge

      Re: TL; DR

      "Sunlit uplands"

  6. MJI Silver badge

    I am just going to ignore it and

    carry on as I was.

    1. nematoad Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: I am just going to ignore it and

      Well, the best of luck with that.

      I have a feeling that we will all be tripping over these little "gotchas" for the foreseeable future. Remember when we were told "Let's take back control". They didn't say that we were going to lose a lot of things that have been taken for granted over the last 40 plus years. did they?

      So what's is "control" worth now we seem to be heading into the clammy clutches of Trump and co?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I am just going to ignore it and

        >I have a feeling that we will all be tripping over these little "gotchas" for the foreseeable future. Remember when we were told "Let's take back control". They didn't say that we were going to lose a lot of things that have been taken for granted over the last 40 plus years. did they?

        The announcements today include:

        1). Businesses that move goods from NI to GB will need export paperwork (and vice versa).

        https://twitter.com/startmakingsens/status/1183705097399947264?s=20

        2). EU, Swiss and Turkish nationals could no longer be allowed to own businesses in the UK.

        https://publiclawproject.org.uk/latest/freedom-of-establishment-regulations-briefing/

        1. unimaginative

          Re: I am just going to ignore it and

          With regard to 2) they will not be allowed to work in the UK. There is nothing to stop anyone anywhere in the world owning a UK business (which is why we have lots of people from everywhere from the US to Russia owning businesses in the UK). They will not be allowed to run UK businesses, unless they have an appropriate visa (which they can get if they are already in the country).

          1. phuzz Silver badge

            Re: I am just going to ignore it and

            The last thing they want to do is to stop foreigners from owning companies, that might get in the way of the money laundering ahem, sorry, 'asset relocation'.

      2. Mike 16 Silver badge

        Take Back Control?

        When in all history has a politician saying they will "take back control" ever meant it would be _you_ taking back control, rather than them?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Take Back Control?

          a politician saying they will "take back control" ever meant it would be _you_ taking back control, rather than them?

          True, look at how the EU has taken control of our lives.

          1. TheProf

            Re: Take Back Control?

            Examples please.

            1. low_resolution_foxxes

              Re: Take Back Control?

              I despair when Brexiters moan on about "taking back control", largely a soundbite that has come from the finance and hedge fund industry since the EU laws clamped down on their crappier and unethical behaviours.

              Yet to the average Brexiter, Farage is most definitely talking about taking control of fishing zones, bringing back the British empire, getting rid of the Polish, making beer and fags cheaper etc. Cause that is definitely, absolutely, what Farage (the foul-mouthed German bank trader and lobbyist) is all about.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Take Back Control?

                @low_resolution_foxxes

                I despair when Brexiters moan on about "taking back control"

                Trust me it isnt as bad as when remainers moan about "taking back control". You hear every horrible projected feeling they hold dear cast onto their hated opponents.

                The historically dangerous attitude of 'I am right and you are wrong' *end of thought* mentality causing some to lose math skills (failing to understand 'majority' or 3-0), some to demand the revocation of democracy as long as its their way, some to believe any conspiracy story against brexit groups (but instantly believe innocence of remain) and others to lose grip on reality altogether.

                However in a positive light it has got some of them outside in the fresh air for their 'marches'.

                1. martinusher Silver badge

                  Re: Take Back Control?

                  Remainers have a very good reason for being concerned about the future because the only thing that will prevent complete chaos post Brexit is not that HM government has planned for life post-Brexit but because they're so disconnected from reality that there's not enough resources to actually enforce all the new rules and regulations. So, yes, maybe you'll have to stop using your decoder, but then the "you and which army" rule will apply -- yes, I know that ad hoc enforcement like those private bailiffs might become the rule of the day but in the rest of the world we call that sort of thing 'extortion'.

                  Why don't you just admit it was a clusterfuck from Day One? I've got no particular skin in this game since I left the UK for the US years ago ("substituting one set of problems for another") but it doesn't take genius to realize its a train wreck. The Exit crew still think its 1940, their leadership has got its sights on making a killing from shorting the pound and the 'little people' are, unfortunately, rather clueless about who, why and what. (This doesn't mean that its all sunshine and roses in the EU but at least it seems to be organized and has half a clue about what its doing.)

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Take Back Control?

                    @martinusher

                    "Remainers have a very good reason for being concerned about the future"

                    True, as do brexiters.

                    "because the only thing that will prevent complete chaos post Brexit is not that HM government has planned for life post-Brexit but because they're so disconnected from reality that there's not enough resources to actually enforce all the new rules and regulations"

                    Oh here is the whining. So how did we cope before? How do other countries cope without being in the EU? HOW DOES THE WORLD KEEP SPINNING WITHOUT EU MAGIC?

                    "Why don't you just admit it was a clusterfuck from Day One?"

                    I do. Cameron the remainer refused to plan for brexit even though it was a possibility. He insisted he was going to stay after the referendum to implement the result then buggered off. A party split over remain and leave was in power and while May started with some promise she was a remainer at heart and ruined a good brexit with a remain bill (that wouldnt pass parliament 3 times!). Remainers have clusterfucked this every step of the way.

                    "but it doesn't take genius to realize its a train wreck"

                    Very much agreed. We have a PM only interested in power taking over the process way to late to do anything much after a remainer failed for the last 2 yrs + extension.

                    1. defiler Silver badge

                      Re: Take Back Control?

                      Oh here is the whining. So how did we cope before? How do other countries cope without being in the EU? HOW DOES THE WORLD KEEP SPINNING WITHOUT EU MAGIC?

                      The world can keep spinning without the EU, sure. That's not in doubt. On the other hand, we've spent the past 40+ years gradually integrating ourselves with the ECM/EEC/UK. 40 years of industries optimising themselves based on the advancing policies and regulations. 40 years of the supply chains moulding into the legal environment that's evolved. 40 years of workers settling into a regime where they can come from amongst half a billion people to work in the UK (or any other EU nation they fancy).

                      You can't simply undo that in one go. It's going to take decades to unravel and for the UK to implement its own mechanisms to replicate what is currently shared services across Europe. For an orderly extraction from Europe what we'd realistically need to do is back off in stages, gradually shoring up our independence.

                      What we have just now is a government attempting to knock some of the economic foundations out of the country, and expecting everything to just stay upright.

                      That's aside from the concerns that the legislation is being rammed through too fast, let alone the implementation timescales; the government being regarded as untrustworthy; the simple fact that the exit we're being offered bears no resemblance to what we were promised three years ago etc etc.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Take Back Control?

                        @defiler

                        "You can't simply undo that in one go"

                        Why? 40 years increasing restrictions on ourselves by bringing ourselves in line with the other 27 countries and now freeing ourselves up to impose less restriction on ourselves. However that 40+ years you talk about should make it simple for continued trade with the EU as its all in place already. The change there being highly domestic.

                        "It's going to take decades to unravel and for the UK to implement its own mechanisms to replicate what is currently shared services across Europe"

                        And why replicate? We implement the mechanisms we need and that is how countries have worked before the EU and currently even outside the EU. The EU being the oddity not the rest of the world.

                        "For an orderly extraction from Europe what we'd realistically need to do is back off in stages, gradually shoring up our independence."

                        Ok. Except that isnt on offer so we are either tied to them for fear of the real world or we leave.

                        "What we have just now is a government attempting to knock some of the economic foundations out of the country, and expecting everything to just stay upright."

                        Which wouldnt be a problem had they implemented the result of the referendum as intended. Instead we have had years of trying to remain while pretending to leave. That being damaging to the countries economy.

                        "That's aside from the concerns that the legislation is being rammed through too fast"

                        Very true. We had time before the referendum result and Cameron did nothing. We had 2 years of negotiation and got a sell-out bill that couldnt get through 3 times! An extension where they took a holiday. Now a new PM few trust rushing a deal.

                        "the simple fact that the exit we're being offered bears no resemblance to what we were promised three years ago"

                        I am happy to agree. We dont seem allowed to leave regardless of the votes against the EU. A minority dictating to the majority and sabotaging the country.

                        1. defiler Silver badge

                          Re: Take Back Control?

                          Okay, codejunky, I'll bite one more time here with an analogy. I'm happy to concede that (like all analogies) it's flawed, but hopefully you'll see what I mean.

                          Humans, cats, dogs, apes, hamsters are all mammals, right? And they're happy doing mammal things, and going about their mammalian business. Dolphins are also mammals, as are whales and manatees. And they're happy going about their mammalian business, but they've evolved to do in in an aquatic environment, with the restrictions and the freedoms that this provides. That's the UK (and other nations) in the EU ocean, watching the squirrels in the trees.

                          What if we were to put a dolphin in a nice big (flooded) house, and then drain out the water? Would it survive? No.

                          What if we drained the water out over a week? Over a year? Would it survive? No.

                          What if we took a breeding pod of dolphins, and drained the water out over a hundred years? A thousand?

                          How many generation would it take these dolphins and their descendants to evolve into this new niche, so they can park their webbed arses on the sofa and watch Gogglebox? It'll take a long time because they've evolved painfully and slowly to live in the sea.

                          The UK, its population and its businesses have slowly evolved to survive in the EU. If we change the ecosystem suddenly, some will thrive, but most will suffer.

                          Oh, and to tackle one point head-on:

                          And why replicate? We implement the mechanisms we need and that is how countries have worked before the EU and currently even outside the EU. The EU being the oddity not the rest of the world.

                          Customs. All goods moving within the UK avoid customs. Goods moving within the EU avoid customs. Goods entering and leaving the EU have to clear customs. Nobody is arguing about this. But a curious aspect that seems to escape so many people is that goods coming into the EU tend to land on mainland Europe. Rotterdam is the biggest port in Europe, and geared up to handle huge volumes of cargo passing through customs. Once it's EU-side it can be flung on a ship to the UK where it sails (see what I did there?) straight through. It only has to stop to be lifted off the boat.

                          Does the UK have enough customs infrastructure to handle the volume of goods that we import from outside the EU, let alone that inside the EU? I'm pretty confident the answer is no, given that we only perform documentary checks on <3% of non-EU goods coming in.

                          Do the UK ports even have enough physical space to create a customs holding area?

                          Regardless of your political affiliation, or your opinion of aquatic mammals, the customs issue is very real, and the real world doesn't compromise to politics.

                          1. codejunky Silver badge

                            Re: Take Back Control?

                            @defiler

                            "Okay, codejunky, I'll bite one more time here with an analogy"

                            Its up to you. I am up for discussion and maybe you can point to things I dont already know or a perspective I havnt thought of which broadens my view on the situation. Its your choice if your willing to do such.

                            "That's the UK (and other nations) in the EU ocean, watching the squirrels in the trees."

                            This doesnt really work (I get the analogy but disagree) because we havnt moved that far apart from the real world. Its almost like the USSR waiting for the 'new man' who never arrived, that evolution to something different didnt happen. Instead of an evolution issue this is more of a voluntary isolationism like hippy's or cultists. We are leaving the cult and rejoining the rest of the world.

                            "The UK, its population and its businesses have slowly evolved to survive in the EU. If we change the ecosystem suddenly, some will thrive, but most will suffer."

                            Except thats not quite accurate. It isnt an ecosystem its a cage. And yes those relying on the EU to throw money at them will find they have to work for someone else willing to pay. But the harm of the cage (high tariffs and heavy regulation) being removed and suddenly having access to more is the isolationist rejoining civilisation.

                            "Does the UK have enough customs infrastructure to handle the volume of goods that we import from outside the EU, let alone that inside the EU?"

                            Yes. When Hammond complained our ports would be overwhelmed the ports themselves said it would be no problem.

                            "I'm pretty confident the answer is no, given that we only perform documentary checks on <3% of non-EU goods coming in."

                            And we will as usual check as we wish. Which will likely be constrained by capacity to check. The ports aint worried so why are you?

                            "Regardless of your political affiliation, or your opinion of aquatic mammals, the customs issue is very real, and the real world doesn't compromise to politics."

                            That last bit is the important one. When politics meets reality, reality always wins. So the political numpties can argue all they want the reality will still exist.

            2. RegGuy1

              Re: Take Back Control?

              FFS. Have you NOT been paying attention? It's been three years. And you want examples of how the EU has taken control of our lives?

              Article 50

              Sequencing of process (withdrawal agreement followed by transition period)

              Extension to October

              Further extension? We have control of what that will be?

              All under the aegis of ECJ. It's not the UK government driving this. We haven't even got a provisional (those are in NI :-).

              1. veti Silver badge

                Re: Take Back Control?

                In the first place, how has any of that affected your life, exactly?

                In the second place, extensions to the Art 50 deadline have been granted not only by agreement with, but at the express request of, HMG, all because HMG can't muster a majority for leaving on any terms.

                In the third place, the one thing the ECJ has pronounced definitively is that the UK retains the option to revoke Art 50 at any time, unilaterally.

                I'm having a hard time seeing how any of that amounts to Europeans controlling your life.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Take Back Control?

                Now you're trolling, right, regguy1?

                All those things you mention have been our doing.

                Incidentally, when people talk about "the EU", do they still not realise the UK is a big part of it, decissions and all?

              3. Snapper

                Re: Take Back Control?

                Troll

                Article 50 is 3/4 of an A4 page, Straightforward English with no hidden meanings.

                It simply states the method by which an EU member state can withdraw from the EU and how the transition period can be extended but only IF THE EU MEMBER STATE IN QUESTION REQUESTS IT.

                You haven't read it, or if you have you are too dumb to understand it or lying, probably both.

          2. fajensen Silver badge

            Re: Take Back Control?

            True, look at how the EU has taken control of our lives.

            Yes? Looking. OK, How, exactly?

      3. Snapper

        Re: I am just going to ignore it and

        I listened to Michael Heseltine's speech when I was in Parliament Square last Saturday and I particularly like this observation (paraphrased for clarity), which should give anybody, Leaver or Remainer, pause for thought -

        ‘Trade deals take so long because they can be hijacked by small groups in any one of the EU member state parliaments or even local authorities, leaving us at the mercy of every European pressure group.

        They probably call it taking back control!’

        1. BigSLitleP Silver badge

          Re: I am just going to ignore it and

          Yes! We should take back control! We only want to listen to pressure groups that have paid the Conservatives money!

          This is nonsense and anyone that has ever been involved in trade agreements will tell you it's nonsense.

        2. noboard

          Re: I am just going to ignore it and

          ‘Trade deals take so long because they can be hijacked by small groups in any one of the EU member state parliaments or even local authorities, leaving us at the mercy of every European pressure group.'

          Errr so he's against the EU, as the above example shows why it's such a hideously inefficient entity. Much better to get rid of it and try again.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I am just going to ignore it and

            "Errr so he's against the EU, as the above example shows [...]"

            While we are in the EU we have a major voice for our own advantages in those EU trade deals with non-EU countries. Outside the EU we are a small fish trying to play against the EU, USA, China and anyone else who wants to game us.

            For example: Australia has recently concluded a trade deal with the EU. They say that post-Brexit the UK can have the same deal - as long as we also agree to free movement of Australians to the UK.

            1. MJI Silver badge

              Re: I am just going to ignore it and

              Australians

              Well we will always need barmen.

    2. Ken 16 Silver badge
      Holmes

      Keep Calm and Carry On?

      From wikipedia: "Many people claimed not to have seen the posters; while those who did see them regarded them as patronising and divisive. Design historian Susannah Walker regards the campaign as "a resounding failure" and reflective of a misjudgement by upper-class civil servants of the mood of the people."

      Good job the government learned its lesson generations ago and isn't making that mistake with the Get Ready For Brexit posters.

  7. mark l 2 Silver badge

    Surely as it stands, unless new legislation is passed that changes the UK copyright law then the EU law will still be relevant even after we have left? Which maybe some time off yet anyway if Boris' worse that May's deal doesn't get through.

    Not exactly sure how they will detect if someone is using a EU decoded to watch sports without paying their ridiculous Sky TV prices anyway, and its hardly something the plod are going to investigate. After all ripping CDs to MP3 was technically illegal for years but no one was prosecuted for just doing it with their own CDs at home use, only if it was a commercial pirate operation.

    1. veti Silver badge

      Not entirely. It's true that most EU law has been codified into UK law, and all that will continue to stand - but some of the legal decisions and precedents set under the old regime will no longer be valid. And some rulings are not statutory, but only guidelines/regulations made by gov'ts, in some cases to comply with EU obligations.

      So yes, there will be changes immediately. Just - not very big ones, as the article shows.

  8. ChrisDe

    Sui Generis?

    Anybody fancy a stab at explaining this? I looked it up but it sounds too important for the IANAL, wikipedic hack-and-paste that I would be able to muster.

    1. Gazman

      Re: Sui Generis?

      Yes, I’ll try. Sui generis = lit. “Of its own type”. Refers to special intellectual property rights that were created to protect database contents that could not be protected by copyright or author’s rights where those contents lacked the requisite originality.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Sui Generis?

        That seems to replace brevity with complexity.

        What I think it means is that if you take a number of items which aren't necessarily themselves subject to copyright and arrange them in some sort of order that arrangement is itself a work on which you can claim copyright.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Rename Halloween

    to

    "Day of the Lemmings"

    Because given the proposed deal that's what we will be.

    Recession looms I'm afraid plus a load of businesses will just pull the plug and move over the channel. Jobs? What jobs? What with all the IT Jobs going to India and what's left of manufacturing going to Germany (and other places in the EU) there will be little money for the gubbermint to do anything they have announced. IMF bail out looms and yes, I can remember the last time when Dennis 'the eyebrows' Healey went begging for a loan.

    This time we really are doomed.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Rename Halloween

      "What with all the IT Jobs going to India [...]"

      India and several other countries have indicated that any post-Brexit trade deal must agree to freer movement of their nationals to live and work in the UK. India has a massive imbalance of educated people who cannot get suitable jobs in India.

      1. Danny 2 Silver badge

        Re: Rename Halloween

        Actually British employers who have employees in India can bring them over for a year to work here without British working pay and conditions applying.

        When I left my last contract at Norwich Union (now Aviva), I was replaced by six Indian MCSEs. I admit I was slightly overpaid but I wasn't earning six times the national minimal wage. I assume the six of them moved into the crappy B&B room I vacated.

        That's the big lie about Brexit impact on wages, that it will reduce overseas workers and maintain hard won workers rights. Successive governments have said they were going to reduce economic immigration and the Brexiters focussed on EU economic migrants. The thing is the governments could always have limited non-EU economic migrants, and they didn't. They won't be limiting EU economic migrants in future even if Brexit happens because immigration benefits the wealthier of us (business and property owners).

  10. Cederic Silver badge

    Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013

    They're not revoking this shite piece of legislation:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/24/section/77

    So no, you're still fucked if you don't want the Government to hand copyright of your images to someone else when some cunt online strips the EXIF.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    In other NEWS...

    Brexit popcorn has completely sold out.

    Just like the Tory Government.

    1. fajensen Silver badge
      Pint

      Re: In other NEWS...

      I just bottled an IPA, it should be ready at the 31'st so I am hoping for no extension so it doesn't go stale. The popcorn will keep.

      1. Suricou Raven Silver badge

        Re: In other NEWS...

        I think this is more of a vodka situation.

  12. Kevin Fairhurst

    “Also changing are rules on EU Portability Regulation. This currently allows people to access online services from anywhere in Europe as if they were at home.”

    So that’s the end of cross-EU mobile roaming, then. Why would companies pay for this when they can pass the costs on to the customer?

    And I am sure Sky have a nice list of all the people/businesses they investigated who are using Eu TV decoders... so never mind the police, Sky will be ready to enforce that one as soon as they’re legally able!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      But, hey, we've taken back control, right?

      /sarc

      1. Lars Silver badge
        Unhappy

        "But, hey, we've taken back control, right?".

        .. and of the borders, there is of course some logic in creating a border to take control of, and who doesn't like paperwork.

        PS. only iPhones ?

    2. really_adf

      So that’s the end of cross-EU mobile roaming, then. Why would companies pay for this when they can pass the costs on to the customer?

      The obvious answer is because none of them want to be the first company to start charging for EU roaming.

  13. Suricou Raven Silver badge

    Something missing.

    The UK increased the copyright duration on sound recordings from 50 years to 70 in order to comply with EU law. This will of course remain codified into UK law post-brexit... but we could repeal it. In theory. We won't, of course. The Beatles are far too important to do that - if they don't keep getting paid, they might not make any more music.

    1. Cederic Silver badge

      Re: Something missing.

      At least Cliff Richard's stopped, now that he has an income stream from suing the BBC.

      1. Roger Kynaston
        Mushroom

        Re: Something missing.

        Bet he re-releases Mistletoe and Wine this year. Get the ear bleach ready!

        OT I know but hey.

        1. MJI Silver badge

          Re: Something missing.

          Mistletoe and Whine

    2. Danny 2 Silver badge

      Re: Something missing.

      Weren't the Beatles the super-rich meglomaniacs who released a song complaining about how much they had to pay in tax?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxman

  14. Long John Silver
    Pirate

    The copyright scam and its demise

    It's unsurprising to hear of copyright cartel success in buying (aka lobbying) to 'protect' petty rentier 'rights' following the UK's exit from the EU. A sensible government would appreciate the burden imposed upon legitimate business and individuals by geographical fragmentation of copyright and recognise simplification arising from EU arrangements. The simplest solution would have been to put this matter on hold whilst a trade agreement incorporating copyright is worked out with the EU.

    One suspects Johnson and his cronies have their eyes upon a lucrative (for them) trade deal with the USA. So called 'intellectual property' (IP) figures highly in recent US trade deals and in the aborted TTIP. This reflects not only immense influence of corporate IP rentiers but actual economic necessity too. The USA economy is in dire straits regarding production of physical goods for export. It relies upon the Far East to meet requirements of its home market. It re-badges IT products from the Far East and sells them onward with luxury item mark-up. A notable example is Apple branded products.

    Intangible goods and services are becoming bedrock of the US economy. These encompass copyright applied to entertainment and culture (e.g. Hollywood's emanation of trash and dismal failure with culture), financial services, and patents controlling production of pharmaceuticals.

    A nation dependent upon IP exports is in perilous position. IP is 'property' only by virtue of agreement and convention. It differs from physical property in one important respect: IP may arbitrarily be duplicated, sold, and form basis of continuing income into almost perpetuity for no additional effort. Digital representation of cultural artefacts is bringing about realisation that 'medium' and 'message' are separable. The medium, e.g. a vinyl disc or CD, is physical. Its production and sale appears to occur in the realm of standard market-economics where scarcity applies; of course it never has because monopoly distribution rights are conferred and therefore 'price discovery' is inapplicable.

    During the latter half of the twentieth century it became feasible for ordinary individuals to separate (copy) the analogue component of a vinyl disc from the medium embedding it. That set wings flapping in copyright cartel dove-cotes but there was little to worry about because transfer of analogue material on tape from one to another is cumbersome and subject upon repeated copying to entropy degrading the 'content'. Digitally encoded material on CDs was a different matter. Multiple sequential copies taken with care need not suffer degradation. Yet, the 'content' still required transporting on a duplicated physical disc. Advent of portable digital devices and of widespread Internet connection brought about huge qualitative change. The message no longer depended upon particular instantiations of a physical medium or on a particular kind of medium.

    From separability of medium and message is arising the slowly dawning truth that digital sequences (regardless of what they encode) are, once free floating from a particular instance of a medium, not subject to scarcity; they are indefinitely reproducible and each example may be considered realisation of a 'master copy' held in the same Platonic Heaven as the digital sequence known as Pi.

    Lack of inherent scarcity vitiates reasoning based upon market economics applicable to physical goods and to individually applied services. No meaning attaches to 'theft' of a digital sequence because nobody is deprived of the original. What was constructed under copyright monopoly has never been other than an ersatz market; its futility now completely exposed. Attempts to prop up rentiers' presumed entitlements inevitably fail regardless of whether mediated through legislation or DRM. Each further attempt has knock-on effect of drawing public attention to the price gouging scam perpetuated by publishers/distributors. Thereby, a critical mass of people willing to disobey copyright shall emerge and grow unstoppably.

    Nations importing IP from the USA may begin to grasp its leeching effect on their economies. It grabs an undue proportion of disposable incomes for repatriation in the USA and in tax havens. That represents a local opportunity cost to the economy; a general truth pertaining to all rentier activities (e.g. commercial property rental) within a nation. Regarding copyright, much of the opportunity cost relates to stifling creative activity (e.g. forbidding 'derivation') and corralling favoured creative individuals within boundaries set by production/distribution conglomerates enabling shaping cultural output to meet wholly commercial aims such as pleasing advertisers.

    Current USA diplomacy via sanctions opens the door to retaliation via repudiation of IP 'rights'. There already is evidence of restrictive practices by 'rights' holders engendering disobedience e.g. farmers in India resisting bullying by Bayer/Monsanto. Price gouging pharmaceuticals are ripe for comeuppance too.

    So, does disobedience to copyright and its eventual collapse take food from the mouths of creative people? By no means. However, it does deny sustenance to corpulent intermediaries (publisher/distributors) which take the lion's share of income generated from monopoly priced products passed off as necessarily expensive luxury items.

    Digital products (e.g. software, TV shows, film, eBooks, and music) have no intrinsic monetary worth (regardless of cost of making). However, their cultural value sets out the stalls of creative individuals seeking patronage for their next work. Cutting out middlemen, as now enabled by the Internet, turns upside down habitual assumptions about pricing. Voluntary donations toward commissioning need be tiny fractions of current retail pricing of 'content'. Voluntary subscription can be bundled with added value goods and services. What arises is a genuine market with price discovery. Individuals within each genre of cultural output compete one with another for attention from patrons, donors, and subscribers. They are selling their skills in creation of works appealing to their intended audience. Reputation becomes all. Each finished digital work goes into the commons but serves to promote demand for the next.

    The jobbing painter and decorator does not seek indefinite royalty payments from customers. However, each finished job evinces his skill to all seeing it. The same applied to Leonardo da Vinci. He achieved commissions for projects based upon reputation.

    Copyright is now meaningless. It must be replaced by entitlement to attribution, this being greatest reward for genuinely creative people spurred on by internal driving forces.

    1. Suricou Raven Silver badge

      Re: The copyright scam and its demise

      You forget that the UK is in much the same boat: We too were once a mighty giant of manufacturing, who lost much of that trade to countries more geographically suited and economically disposed to low wages and lax regulation just as we once were. Our economy shifted towards services and intellectual property. The cycle affects many countries - even China is starting preparations for their own transition,and eyeing Vietnam as a good place to get low-cost manufacturing done.

    2. halftone

      Re: The copyright scam and its demise

      How the fuck do I eat attribution? Creators need a sustainable ecosystem. No ecosystem, then only rich kids and hobbyists can create. I've done my share of starving in a garret, thanks. The world certainly doesn't owe me a living, but I don't owe you or anyone else free stuff, whether or not you are gracious enough to tell other people from whom you stole it.

  15. Fred Dibnah Silver badge

    Ups and downs

    Seeing the big upvote and downvote scores on this thread pretty much sums up how polarising brexit* is.

    * I haven't used a capital b, because brexit isn't a proper noun. Downvote that, bastards.

    1. Danny 2 Silver badge

      Re: Ups and downs

      I upvoted you for your defiance but Brexit entered the OED in 2016.

      1. MJI Silver badge

        Re: Ups and downs

        I call it Brexshit.

  16. Kyle Wilson

    Sounds like double the red tape in the mid-term

    Any business that exports to Europe or pursues contracts in Europe (and I expect that most manufacturers will want to sell there) will have to meet UK standards as well as EU standards. This suggests to me that they'll have to certify on both sides of the channel involving substantially more overhead than they had before brexit...and if they're particularly unlucky, the UK and EU requirements may be incompatible and they'll need to have two separate SKUs in order to ship into both markets...I can't really see where this will help any business bigger than a local mom and pop...

  17. steviebuk Silver badge

    Download now!

    "Government advice is for cultural institutions to remove any orphan works from their collection online, consider applying for a UK orphan licence or if they have a UK license find a way to limit access to only UK residents."

    Fucking ridiculous.

  18. Danny 2 Silver badge

    Modest Proposal

    Last night BoZo legalised gay marriage and abortion rights in Northern Ireland in a failed attempt to bounce Stormont back into sitting so they could ratify his customs deal stitch-up.

    He should have gone further to reconcile the DUP and Sinn Fein. He should have made gay marriage and abortion mandatory in Northern Ireland.

  19. GrapeBunch Silver badge

    VHS tapes, for example

    IANAL, and I'm afraid that IP and copyright matters bid fair to become impossible to figure out. Maybe the gov't dep'ts are issuing directives because that's what's expected of them, but their directives may have no more rightness than a smelly fart. I'm sure that some people voted Leave because of the level of cussedness implicit in Euro rule, not expecting that their own Brit bureaucrats would invoke the same level of cussedness, or even worse. Blame that on short collective memories?

    I do have a question, though. "Fair use" of IP might involve "educational purposes". So, let's say a person has a collection of old VHS tapes, programmes time-shifted from an earlier age of television. If the person then gives the collection to a College or University, for their "Media Studies" department, what happens next? I do understand that the next step might vary between jurisdictions. Feel free to state the jurisdiction(s) that apply. Implicit is that the material has value to the recipient, or to the recipient's students. I'm hoping that will suppress any "bin as worthless" replies.

  20. HelpfulJohn

    Power companies.

    My electricity is sold to me by EDF even though much of it is probably created in England or its inshore waters. Someone once told me that them are French. I am almost sure that after any Brexit, if such a daft, insane, suicidal and totally nuts thing ever happened, the French would stay in the E.U. but I, living in lovely England, would not.

    Okay, right, fine. So ... are they allowed to keep my personally identifiable information? Are they allowed to sell me stuff? Are EDF allowed to operate in UKlander counties if we ever Brexit? Do I need to run around trying to find a totally English company that isn't owned, even in part by furriners?

    Do I need to find a company that does't have its personally identifiable customer data on servers in Iceland, the USofA or Yurp?

    Once I've done that, how about my bank? Or insurance company? Or any of a few other gigantic conglomerates I deal with whose provenance I have never bothered to investigate? If they are not completely English, do I need to swap? Do they need to warn me of their foreign allegiances and fealties?

    And what about a company whose servers are in a building straddling the Backstoppy border between us and Eire? Even if it should be totally English would it need to follow E.U. rules for any data stored in the E.U. housed hard-drives?

    Am I still allowed to make French Toast and French Fries after Brexit or would I need to pay a copyright fee to the French Embassy? What about French kisses? Would they be toned down to become mere English pecks? Will military guys still be deterred from taking French leave, or will that right become one of the protected ones?

    Will DVD's still have foreign language subtitles and dubbing alternatives or will English-only versions start turning up?

    Oh, and Eire/Nyreland is *not* our only land border. The Chunnel exists. Has anyone considered that one?

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