back to article Boris Brexit bluff binds .eu domains to time-bending itinerary

Ongoing uncertainty about whether the UK will exit the European Union on October 31 – Halloween – has created some time-bending problems for owners of .eu domains. As we have previously noted, Brussels bureaucrats have repeatedly flip-flopped on what should happen to Brit-owned .eu domains after Brexit, forcing the company …

  1. dnbattley

    The EU is the bureaucratic equivalent of Apple: not all decisions need to make commercial or logical sense, but all must conform to an underlying "walled garden" mentality.

    1. James 51
      FAIL

      It makes as much sense as Brexit means Brexit.

    2. Paul Hampson 1

      Its not that difficult, 2002 rules said that you could have an .eu domain if the legal person asking for it :

      (a) a natural person who is a resident of a Member State;

      (b) an undertaking that is established in the Union; or

      (c) an organisation that is established in the Union, without prejudice to the application of national law.

      This has changed to allow:

      (i) a Union citizen, independently of their place of residence;

      (ii) a natural person who is not a Union citizen and who is a resident of a Member State;

      (iii) an undertaking that is established in the Union; or

      (iv) an organisation that is established in the Union, without prejudice to the application of national law.

      So basically, they have extended it so that you can have one even if you don't live in EU, as long as you are a citizen, with a 2-month grace period to clear up any missing information. Which is quite nice of them really, given that it the Brits that are being arsy and leaving.

      BTW, the residence over citizenship principle was used during the referendum when many non-Brits who lived in the UK could vote, while British citizens who had lived abroad for more than 15 years couldn't.

  2. jake Silver badge

    Out of curiosity ...

    ... has anybody here actually found a use for a .eu domain?

    Frankly, I don't think I have ever heard of, much less visited, a single one. Do they even exist? Who uses them? And why?

    1. Khaptain Silver badge

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      We can presume that they exist in order that some of those EuroCrats can justify their salaries.

      Must admit that I have no memory of ever have seen nor visited a .EU site....

      1. nagyeger

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        hosting provider time4vps used to use a .eu address, (I guess in case people couldn't remember if

        -- urm their base, urm, Latvia? Lituania? -- is in the EU or not). Now that redirects to .com, presumably because it means they want to be a global brand

      2. heyrick Silver badge

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        "ever have seen nor visited a .EU site...."

        All this irrational knee jerk bollocks is probably because they're a little bit sore about leave.eu.

        I recently changed my site to an eu domain (was .co.uk) for political reasons best summed up as fuck Brexit.

        1. Stevie Silver badge

          Re: Out of curiosity ...

          Well with that attitude you won't be getting a share of the 350 megaquids per week, heyrick.

    2. thames

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      There was a spam email campaign a few months ago operating from a set of ".eu" domains, but I haven't seen anything from them for a while. I don't know whether they have moved on or whether the spam is just getting filtered better upstream from me now.

    3. GlenP Silver badge

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      We registered the .eu domain largely to protect it. It was only ever used for emails that we wanted to bypass the main system, those now go to our .uk address instead.

      1. Danny 2 Silver badge

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        "We registered the .eu domain largely to protect it."

        How are you going to protect it now? Once you lose your .eu site is there a way to stop it being bought up to phish your customers? You should maybe petition EURid to retire it permanently.

    4. itzman

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      I regularly receive spam from .eu domains.

      I think I have blacklisted all the top level

    5. A.P. Veening Silver badge

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      Most if not all EU institutions have a .eu domain. Besides that, my hosting provider uses a .eu domain (vimexx.eu).

    6. JimPoak

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      The EU domain was introduced as unifying force identifying all the countries their in as a single entity. Having said that Esperanto was a universal language and hardly anyone uses that.

      1. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        Having said that Esperanto was a universal language and hardly anyone uses that.

        Ah, that explains the lack of an .esperanto TLD.

        Also telling: there is actually a .fail :)

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      Yes, we've got some.

      Mainly because our privacy work means we like to make it clear we're nowhere near the US :)

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        I have seen them used by people who find that the name they want is unavailable behind a more mainstream .com or co.uk etc.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Out of curiosity ...

          I've seen that too. That's usually not a name protected by trademark, because otherwise the .com/.co.uk users would have a legitimate claim on the domain (assuming they were prepared to follow through, not all do).

    8. Naich

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      I'm typosquatting leave,eu and I bought thebrexitparty.eu to piss Nigel off.

      1. S4qFBxkFFg

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        "I'm typosquatting leave,eu"

        Very forward-thinking of you - ICANN are still trying to wring all they can out of the dot-separated names, they haven't even started on the comma-separated ones yet.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Out of curiosity ...

          How pedantism can be fun, lesson #23.

          Thanks for that, grin.

    9. Stork Silver badge

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      There are some outfits here in Portugal using them, perhaps because.com was taken and.pt used to be quite restrictive (no subdomains), slow and expensive to get. At the moment the powers that be are pushing.com.pt, but it seems no-one really wants them.

      We went for a.com and started building website.

      I think the.eu policy is stupid,it seems designed to make them less attractive. But that is the Latin tradition that authorities shall meddle in as many details as possible.

    10. Not also known as SC

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      A friend and his wife uses one. She is from one of the EU27 nations and has never really felt at home in the UK despite living in the UK for at least thirty years. I don't think she can get one for her home nation, so the EU domain helps her maintain a bit more of a connection with her homeland.

      1. Not also known as SC
        Joke

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        Interesting - two down votes (at the moment) for a non-political, factual statement about a real life use for the .eu domain. No explanations why!

        Is it leave voters down voting just because I've expressed remain sentiments in other comments and I mentioned an EU citizen in a positive light?

        Is it remain voters because I suggested that an EU citizen gets home sick and doesn't think Blighty is the greatest place on Earth?

        Is it astrophysicists because I made a cock-up in a comment the other day about gravitational waves in a different article?

        Will I ever find out...

        1. Pascal Monett Silver badge
          Coat

          Rule #1 about downvotes : never talk about downvotes.

          1. Mike007

            At least you understand why I downvoted you...

          2. jake Silver badge

            Why ever not?

            Afraid of invisible cowards mindlessly thumbing you in a virtual manner?

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Rule #1 about downvotes : never talk about downvotes

            this trolling statement deserves up and downvoting, both for its sophistication and simplicity... Get on the wagon at the right time and you surf the waves, but get it too late and you'll be dead in a ditch. Or dyke.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Out of curiosity ...

          " two down votes ... No explanations why!"

          I think it works like this. Somebody posts something. You post an irrefutable reply which contradicts it. OP can either mutter "oh shit, why did I post that?" and move on or get upset and resentful. OP's only recourse is to keep downvoting every post you make.

          TL;DR Wear your downvotes with pride, you were right and somebody knows it.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        "the EU domain helps her maintain a bit more of a connection with her homeland."

        The logic is impeccable.

        (Hopefully everybody's sarcasm detector is functional.)

        Note to !AKA SC, perhaps suggest she carry a small stone from her birth-place in her pocket? It works for a Japanese friend of mine, and is somewhat less tenuous.

    11. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      I think I posted this the last time the subject came up? We've got 14 contacts from 9 companies with .eu domains on our database of 9,300 contacts from 4,000 companies. We're in the construction (mostly water) industry and totally UK based.

      Mostly it seems to be small companies, where I guess they couldn't get the .co.uk or .com

      For comparison we've got:

      14 x .eu

      11 x .biz

      211 x .uk.com

      2 x .plumbing

      43 x .org.uk

      17 x .org

      3,100 x .com

      5,500 x .co.uk

      ooh and 2 x .london - not seen those before.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        Just had a quick look in one of our contact databases, 96000 contacts with an email address of which only 11 with a .EU

        Anonymous for obvious obviousness.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        Thanks, IaS.

        For the record, it was an honest question on my part.

      3. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

        Re: We're in the construction (mostly water) industry

        Shouldn't you have an .eau address?

    12. sed gawk Silver badge

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      I seem to recall "Leave.EU" got some usage, purely through the law of unintended consequences, naturally.

    13. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      eu knows?

    14. jake Silver badge

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      And here we go with the downvotes. Cracks me up ... Apparently, my honest questions caused a few folks to clench. Inferiority complex much?

    15. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      I have a friend whom has recently migrated their website & email from .co.uk to .eu. But they are an ex-pat living in France, so probably the entirely opposite issue to that being discussed :)

    16. atippey

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      My first though was em.eu

      1. moiety Silver badge

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        I wanted fuck.eu as an address to write snotty emails from.

        nginx have it as a test page though, so at least it's being used for good.

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
          Happy

          Re: Out of curiosity ...

          Sadly screw.eu has also gone. Presumably along with the horse you rode in on...

    17. katrinab Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Out of curiosity ...

      Yes, there is one .eu domain I visit regularly, which is europa.eu, and in particular www.ecb.europa.eu, the European Central Bank, in order to get exchange rates.

      1. jake Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Out of curiosity ...

        Have you eyeballed xe.com, specifically https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/ ? I've been using it since the early '90s. Works well, is fast, is not a Yank site (if you care), plays well with ad blockers ... what's not to like? Likewise the rather dangerously named x-rates.com ...

        Not suggesting your preferred site is crap, just offering a second (third, ish) alternative.

        Thanks for all the input, all y'all. As I said I was just curious, and not trolling.

        This round's on me ... cellar temperature, of course.

  3. thames
    WTF?

    If the EU insist that UK holders of ".eu" domains have to give them up, the obvious solution would be to say that this rule takes effect a year or two after the UK has actually left the EU. At that point the status of the UK should be clear and domain owners will have had time to sort out an alternative.

    Insisting that UK registered ".eu" domains must cease to exist right on the dot of the official Brexit date introduces a lot of problems for everyone involved for no obvious rational reason and seems motivated purely out of spite.

    I don't live in the UK, or anywhere in the EU for that matter, and don't have any stake in the game. However, I suspect that this sort of political gamesmanship by EURid is not exactly doing much to enhance the reputation of the EU, which already suffers from a reputation for being a regulatory morass which is a nightmare for outsiders attempting to trade with it to navigate.

    1. Rich 11 Silver badge

      the obvious solution would be to say that this rule takes effect a year or two after the UK has actually left the EU.

      Welcome to the political shenanigans over Deal / No Deal Brexit. There's a reason it's not going well, and claiming something is obvious doesn't come into it. It's a little more complicated than that.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Don't blame EURid.

      EURid is the registrar, tied by EU rules. They hate this bullshit more than anyone else - they'll be losing a lot of UK revenue!

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      "the obvious solution would be to say that this rule takes effect a year or two after the UK has actually left the EU."

      How long is it since EURid first said that .eu domains must be registered to an EU address? It's 3 years and 3 months since the vote to leave, so I'd suggest that anyone in the UK affected should have been planning for this eventuality for quite some time by now.

    4. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      I agree completely. There is absolutely no reason that an .eu site should be shut down on the very day Brexit happens. After all, every .eu site had an authentic EU address when applying for the domain name, so it is entirely unjustified to not leave a bit of time to those businesses to adapt.

      On the other hand, those businesses have had well nigh two years to adapt now, so it seems also a tad excessive to be running around like headless chickens simply because - gasp - there may only be a few weeks left !

      In any case, it seems that UK businesses are capable of just as much foresight as UK government.

      Not a good sign.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "In any case, it seems that UK businesses are capable of just as much foresight as UK government."

        Well, they can't have more foresight. They have to fit in with what actually happens and as HMG has spent several years not knowing that nobody else can know either. Making provision for 4 different outcomes is expensive with no guarantee as to whether something completely different will happen. As an example AFAIK the Irish farming industry still doesn't know if it will have to spend a few million on a new meat processing plant in the north.

    5. John Sager

      I don't think it's spite, but I could be convinced by a credible argument. I think it's more driven by the way the totally committed EUers see themselves and the EU. That if you aren't in the EU, then what possible reason would you have for wanting a .eu domain, or retaining it when you leave? Also, it's perfectly obvious that they don't grok the Internet, or even if they have a vague understanding, then the EU project and all that that means to them is so much more important.

      1. heyrick Silver badge

        more driven by the way the totally committed EUers see themselves and the EU

        I'm a committed EUer (to the point where I don't ever open to return to England), and I really don't give a toss who has, or doesn't have, a .eu domain. It's a name that carries an identity. And there is nothing wrong with having a European identity even after Brexit. Taking purely the referendum voters, there were 48.something% who supported the EU. Something like 16 million people who were pro EU, and of them likely a couple of million with European heritage.

        If the EU really wants to bleat about European values, they might consider exactly what values they are promoting. Slamming the door out of childish spite? That's hardly a value to uphold, and neither is complete denial that anybody in UK might want or feel enough of a connection to Europe to hold an eu domain name after Brexit has happened.

        1. heyrick Silver badge
          Happy

          might want or feel enough of a connection to Europe

          If nothing else, they ought to leave the door open for pleaseletusrejointhe.eu, right?

        2. jake Silver badge

          Re: more driven by the way the totally committed EUers see themselves and the EU

          "And there is nothing wrong with having a European identity"

          Of course there is! It is simply not possible. Consider this dirty little secret: Not a single one of the individual countries that make up the EU have a single, unified identity. Some are, in fact, quite loudly fighting internally for all the world to see. In the face of all this very real strife in supposed unified countries, how the fuck do you expect to have a unified Europe with a single identity?

          1. Lars

            Re: more driven by the way the totally committed EUers see themselveyys and the EU

            "how the fuck do you expect to have a unified Europe with a single identity?".

            Nobody has asked for that, nobody wants that, nobody expects that, but it's possible to agree on common rules and common aims of mutual interest and advantages without creating a single identity, which indeed is not possible or in anybody's interest.

            The success of the EU is based on the fact that nobody likes to be run by any other country, be it the Germans, the French or the British. The British problem is that they cannot accept that they cannot run it alone and being just a part of it.

            British industry and the education system have no such problems.

            1. Clunking Fist Bronze badge

              Re: more driven by the way the totally committed EUers see themselveyys and the EU

              "The success of the EU is" you lost me there.

    6. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge
      Joke

      @thames: I don't live in the UK

      I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to use that username.

    7. gnarlymarley Bronze badge

      Insisting that UK registered ".eu" domains must cease to exist right on the dot of the official Brexit date introduces a lot of problems for everyone involved for no obvious rational reason and seems motivated purely out of spite.

      One of which the poor EURid tech is going to have to work 24 hours a day around brexit just so they can trigger the database update. If the EU provided some time, then they could "expire" all the records on a normal business schedule and not require someone who is a EU citizen to work overtime.

    8. james 68

      To me the obvious solution is that the UK is (like it or not) Part of the European continent even if it leaves the union and is therefore entitled to .eu domains (for an understanding of EUrope as opposed to European Union), of course that could change if all the vote leave folks get their oars out and start furiously paddling the UK towards open ocean whilst yelling "Brexit means Brexit!!"

      Personally I couldn't give a toss outside of the bemusement and amusement factors, I saw this shit show coming several years ago and buggered of to live in Japan with both a UK and an Irish passport in hand.

  4. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

    Brexit

    The turd that keeps on giving

    The 2 options in the vote should have been

    Stay in the EU

    Have a maximum 15 years withdrawl period

    At least it would have reflected the true situation and complexity. This mess was totally obvious

    1. itzman

      Re: Brexit

      On the contrary it should have been leave with no deal or stay.

      Then we would be able to get on with life the day after the referendum and all te negotiations could have been done after leaving...wit a series of letter of intent in place in the two year period to sort out tit for tat arrangements, like you can fly in my airspace if I can fly in yours, and I wont hold your trucks up at Dover if you don't hold mine up at |Calais.

      If the EU had been prepared to act like adults. that would have been it.

      1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

        Re: Brexit

        If the EU Cameron had been prepared to act like an adults and have worded that referendum correctly, that would have been it.

        FTFY

      2. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

        Re: Brexit

        " leave with no deal"

        There is no such thing. All it means is have massive chaos before trying to negotiate new deals from an awful position. Enjoy.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: Brexit

          before trying to negotiate new deals from an awful position.

          Bad though that would be, it would still be easier than trying to negotiate new deals once locked into a bad deal as the price for leaving. We can only hope that both sides will recognise that some compromise for a deal that works for both sides can be achieved, but I have little hope that the more intransigent of the EU negotiators will be open to that.

          1. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

            Good luck with that

            Unless your willing to go against the good Friday agreement, which is UK law, just like sending vacumr packed smocked kippers in a chiller box through the post. Oh the lies

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: Good luck with that

              "smocked kippers in a chiller box"

              Painters taking a nap in a reefer?

              1. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

                Re: Good luck with that

                Spelling was never my strength. Why I went into IT :)

                But hope the sentiment was understood

                1. jake Silver badge
                  Pint

                  Re: Good luck with that

                  Anybody who didn't understand your commentardary either doesn't speak English very well, or is somebody who enjoys pretending to be ever so superior to the rest of us. Me, I just like to find humo(u)r in the absurdities of modern life. Spelling is useful, but I'd rather sit a spell and have a homebrew. This round's on me.

            2. SundogUK Silver badge

              Re: Good luck with that

              The British people can change UK law via Parliament. We cannot change EU law. This is why we voted to leave.

              1. theOtherJT

                Re: Good luck with that

                Thats literally what MEPs are for. If britain would stop electing self serving cock pieces like farage who will happily take EU money but not actually do their job of representing the interests of the British people in the european parliament, then we wouldn't be in this mess.

              2. Not also known as SC

                Re: Good luck with that

                I think very few people voted to leave as they couldn't change EU law. I would suspect more used it as a protest vote against austerity than about the legislative structure of the EU.

                1. Cederic Silver badge

                  Re: Good luck with that

                  The referendum result has however been extremely useful in helping the British people understand how little they can change UK law.

                  Even people that want to remain in the EU are voicing dismay at the democratic deficit being displayed.

              3. Steve Todd

                Re: Good luck with that

                You seem not to understand that :

                1) The British Parliament has to choose how to implement EU law. They could, for example, have legislated that EU nationals remaining in the country beyond three months without work, needed to prove they were able to support themselves else return to their home country.

                2) The ECJ (European Court of Justice) isn’t part of the EU and is something we signed up for separately.

                3) The European Convention on Human Rights (re the above) was something that was created by British lawyers after the Second World War.

                4) No one has actually pointed to a specific European law and explained what it is that is wrong with it.

                5) Negotiating new trade deals independent of the EU is likely to take years if not decades. WTO terms are not a good place to be in (which has been stated by senior members of the WTO)

                6) There is no way that not being a member of the single market does not break the Good Friday agreement, which is an international treaty we have signed up for.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: Good luck with that

                  @Steve Todd

                  "1) The British Parliament has to choose how to implement EU law."

                  We leave and we dont have to implement EU law.

                  "4) No one has actually pointed to a specific European law and explained what it is that is wrong with it."

                  This has been done a few times. The laws fining someone for not littering. The banana law was a good one because some remainers honestly didnt believe it existed it was so stupid. Apparently the EU doesnt believe there is any evidence water fights dehydration and so water cannot be advertised so. Diabetics banned from driving (although the law is ignored). And of course various countries ignore various EU laws because they are pretty dumb. France and labelling fish comes to mind.

                  "5) Negotiating new trade deals independent of the EU is likely to take years"

                  Except those already queued. And being able to make said deals faster than the EU can make them and making them for this country instead of the protectionism of 27 others.

                  "6) There is no way that not being a member of the single market does not break the Good Friday agreement, which is an international treaty we have signed up for."

                  I have yet to see anyone point to where the GFA states the UK has been sold to the EU. So we do not belong to the EU and are free to leave. The agreement has 2 sides so its up to Ireland to pressure the EU into being realistic. The UK can unilaterally choose what to do with its own borders and same for the EU.

                  1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                    Re: Good luck with that

                    "Except those already queued. And being able to make said deals faster than the EU can make them and making them for this country instead of the protectionism of 27 others."

                    Those deals queued up are letters of intent to agree the same terms with the UK that those countries currently have with the EU. Most are with very small economies and some are time limited. Good luck with getting any sort of fair or reasonable deal with Trump too! He's not a diplomat with an eye on the long term. He's a businessman with an eye on a quick "win" he can crow about.

                  2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
                    Facepalm

                    Re: Good luck with that

                    The banana law was a good one because some remainers honestly didnt believe it existed it was so stupid.

                    Conversely, some leavers are so disingenuous that they still pretend that such a law exists, despite the fact that it is just about the most famous and well known example of a "Euromyth", based very loosely on teh (sensible) directive that you can't pass off grade 2 produce as grade 1 produce (the example given is that of a misshapen banana being passed off as not misshapen).

                    The fact that you know this has been debunked repeatedly, yet still continue to brazenly lie about it speaks volumes about your own honesty and integrity.

                    1. Dr_N Silver badge

                      Re: Good luck with that

                      Liar's gonna lie.

                    2. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Good luck with that

                      @Loyal Commenter

                      "Conversely, some leavers are so disingenuous"

                      So the law is real but leavers are disingenuous to point out the law is real. Making a criminal law of a fine and/or jail time for incorrectly bent banana. But remoaners cry at the fact?

                      "The fact that you know this has been debunked repeatedly"

                      Yup, I debunk the lie many times when remainers believe such a law does not exist.

                      1. Dr_N Silver badge

                        Re: Good luck with that

                        codejunk> Yup, I debunk the lie many times when remainers believe such a law does not exist.

                        Hang on a minute. Wasn't it Tim Worstall who came up with the bollocks about the bendy banana myth not being a myth?

                        Hmmmmmm. So either you are coming out the closet as Tim Worstall, so-to-speak, or you are a liar?

                        1. Tim Worstal

                          Re: Good luck with that

                          He's not Tim Worstall, no, but I am.

                          Bendy bananas.

                          It is actually true that the law stated that Class I bananas for direct human consumption must be free of excessive curvature. Breaching this was a criminal offence punishable by up to 6 months in jail and or a £5,000 fine.

                          That's not a myth at all.

                          The EU's defence of this was as follows. There exist industry standards as to what is Class I,Class II and so on. There are industry standards on all sorts of things, obviously enough. I even wrote one myself, the standardised scandium contract for the Minor Metals Traders Association.

                          Some part of the UN collects all those from the food industry into the Codex Alimentarus. This is entirely sensible. People trying to get into the industry can go look the standards up. Great.

                          The EU then went that one step further. They said that the industry standards must become, in detail, law. This is very stupid indeed.

                          Using the common law approach would be sensible. "If you say you're Class I 'nananananas and you're not then that's lying in trade which is an offence" and why not?

                          Saying that, "in the law, here's the entire and total definition currently used by industry and it's a criminal offence to do anything different" is stupid. Say people want to start eating not Cavendish but some or other of the hundreds of types of 'nanas? Which have more curvature? Say someone even just thinks about importing some to see? It's now necessary to go change the law in 28 countries plus a number of devolved administrations. Yes, the law must both be in Welsh and passed by the Senned.

                          What have we just done therefore? We set in stone the regulatory system as it was when written. We've entirely - because changing the law in 28 countries just to try an experiment and see if there's demand isn't going to work - closed off any adaptations, changes, moderations in those regulations.

                          The common law approach - if you say you meet Codex Alimentarus standards then you should - means that experimentation, growth, etc are possible. Because they can be changed just the once. Worth recalling that at some point, as a clone, the Cavendish is going to go the way of the Gros Michel and we'll all be eating some other cultivar.

                          The transposition of industry standards, in detail, into law entirely removes any adaptability. And we live in a world of changing tastes, changing technologies, therefore adaptability is the one thing that we must have.

                          Bendy bananas is actually a perfect example of the problem with EU regulation. It really is true that bendy bananas were a criminal offence. Then there's the claims from the EU that oh no they weren't. Followed by their complete incomprehension of the actual problem. We shouldn't have detailed, written, rules and laws at this level of detail. We need to regulate at a higher level of abstraction because we must have more adaptability in those details than using the legal system allows.

                          As I say, the perfect example of EU regulation. And why we must leave of course. Having the anal retentives writing the detailed rules which govern an economy of 500 million people just doesn't work over time. Therefore we shouldn't do that. The EU does and always will - Ceterum Censeo Unionem Europeam Esse Delendam.

                          1. Dr_N Silver badge

                            Re: Good luck with that

                            Thanks for the input, Tim.

                            So no actual "EU law" about straight bananas then? Just the UK's interpretation/implemenation of EU food regulations and standards has created a possible/hypothetical problem in the UK?

                            (No issue elsewhere in the EU.)

                            How strange. Well I guess Brexit'll sort all that.

                            Trebles all round!!!

                            1. Tim Worstal

                              Re: Good luck with that

                              No, EU law applies across the EU. It's just that the UK - with a small assist from Ireland - is the only common law jurisdiction. Therefore the stupidity of this sort of detailed legislative regulation is more obvious to us than to those in the generally Roman system on the continent.

                              Apart from anything else we generally believe that anything important enough to be actual law must be obeyed. A charmingly civilised idea but not one that stands up to centuries of fonctionnaires.

                        2. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: Good luck with that

                          @Dr_N

                          "Hang on a minute. Wasn't it Tim Worstall who came up with the bollocks about the bendy banana myth not being a myth?"

                          How do you call bollox the proving true what remainers believed to be myth?

                          "Hmmmmmm. So either you are coming out the closet as Tim Worstall, so-to-speak, or you are a liar?"

                          I am not as well informed as Tim but do appreciate his writing. As my pet troll I assumed you would know that.

                          1. Dr_N Silver badge

                            Re: Good luck with that

                            codejunky>I am not as well informed as Tim but do appreciate his writing.

                            Only a fashion graduate, eh? Never mind. The UK needs more creatives.

                  3. Stoneshop Silver badge
                    Holmes

                    Re: Good luck with that

                    We leave and we dont have to implement EU law.

                    You leave and still have to conform to EU regulations when wanting to trade with the EU.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Good luck with that

                      @Stoneshop

                      "You leave and still have to conform to EU regulations when wanting to trade with the EU."

                      Well said. Just as we conform to the standards of any country we trade with. But we dont need to inflict those regulations on the domestic market only on items we trade with other countries. So domestically we wont be limited by EU rules but what we ship them will have to meet their rules.

                      As it has been throughout the history of trade and continues to be.

                  4. Paul Hampson 1

                    Re: Good luck with that

                    I think you are confusing what you believe with what is actually real (see father for a graphic explanation):

                    1)Banana law ( (EC) No. 2257/94) does not ban bendy bananas only stops shops being able to class them as "premium" and charging accordingly.

                    2)The water and dehydration issue: https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.2903/j.efsa.2011.1982 This is not a ban rather a decision that water seller cannot quote the reduction of a "disease risk" under Regulation (EC) No 1924/2006 since dehydration is not a disease rather a condition. Consequently "regular consumption of water" will not reduce the chances of becoming dehydrated , since a) define regular (daily? what amount?) b) dehydration is a symptom caused by other factors such as environment, what else you have indigested etc. Would a bottle of water stop dehydration if you spent the daya in a desert or a night drinking 2 bottles of whiskey. The answer is no.

                    3)Diabetes and driving. This was a regulation across Europe of things already being done in the member states and only stopped those who had dibilitating attacks in previous 12 months form driving. Similar to the ban on epileptics. This was not on all diabetices, and in some cases diabetics who were banned from driving (such as diabetics wanting to drive an HGV) could now get licenses (according to DiabetesUK.org) if their doctors would sign of on the type of diabetes and the last attack.

                    Please don't read a headline in the Telegraph and believe it is the whole story. There are intelligent people working in the EU who create rules only when they are asked by the member states.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Good luck with that

                      @Paul Hampson 1

                      1) See tims reply (Btw nice to see you on here Tim)

                      2) So a fact cannot be stated because it is true but not under the stupidity of EU law?

                      3) Even EU supporter Cameron couldnt find the relationship between diabetes and driving with the single market. Almost as though this is some kind of federal law to pass to member states.

                      "There are intelligent people working in the EU who create rules only when they are asked by the member states."

                      And what about the rest of them?

                2. Cederic Silver badge

                  Re: Good luck with that

                  I too fail to understand your points. Specifically

                  1 - One reason to leave is to prevent British MPs claiming, "The EU forced this on us." They'll have to accept responsibility for their own idiocy in future. But you fail to explain why David Cameron felt he needed the EU to change in order to implement the policies he advocated the UK should be allowed to have. The EU, if you recall, told him to fuck off, something switched many people towards voting against EU membership.

                  2 - The ECJ is part of the EU. I believe you mean that the ECHR isn't part of the EU.

                  3 - I strongly suspect that many people wish to leave the EU and still remain signatories of the European Convention on Human Rights, subject to rulings from the European Court of Human Rights. I'm not however sure why you bring up this matter in this discussion.

                  4 - All British laws are European laws. My understanding (which may well be wrong) is that the EU doesn't make laws, it agrees regulations which are implemented as national laws. I would however like to highlight the Lisbon Treaty as something so horribly wrong that Blair didn't dare allow the British people the promised referendum whether to accept it.

                  5 - WTO terms seem perfectly adequate for the UK's trade with the US, so why not Europe too? I fear WTO terms are being terribly misrepresented. It is also very quick and easy to agree key elements of trade (e.g. on medicines, agricultural products on the island of Ireland and security information) without needing a long winded and full blown free trade agreement.

                  6 - Could you please articulate why you disagree with multiple lawyers on this matter? It would be lovely if you could also explain why the Good Friday Agreement couldn't, if required, be changed to accommodate any minor incompatibility (that nonetheless doesn't appear to exist), given it's already been changed since originally signed.

                  Maybe I just don't understand anything.

                3. Mike007

                  Re: Good luck with that

                  4) No one has actually pointed to a specific European law and explained what it is that is wrong with it.

                  The cookie consent law. It is annoying.

                  Not as annoying as losing my rights as an EU citizen, but it is a specific EU regulation that I am able to point to and explain what is wrong with it!

              4. aelfric

                Re: Good luck with that

                So you want to unilaterally alter the Good Friday agreement? What could possibly go wrong with that? When I say alter, I do of course mean completely gut of all the parts that have actually given us a respite from the bloodshed.

              5. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

                Re: Good luck with that

                The British people can change UK law via Parliament. We cannot change EU law.

                *sigh* - the same old bollocks, yet again.

                The EU makes regulations, which are voted on by democratically elected MEPs, including our own (we actually have one of the highest number of MEPs of any EU nation).

                Regulations are then brought into national law by being passed as acts by our parliament (which is sovereign). The final say lies with our parliament, and there's nothing stopping them from voting down any law that implements EU regulations. Becuase, you know, parliament is soveriegn despite all the nonsense the likes of Nigel Fartage like to bleat to credulous idiots.

                It might be why you voted to leave. I know people who voted to leave for lots of different reasons (and incidentally the ones I know did vote to leave would now mostly vote to remain instead). My point here is that you don't speak for 16M or so people (and neither do I).

      3. Stork Silver badge

        Re: Brexit

        Adults? Like for example Mr. Johnson?

      4. Jamie Jones Silver badge

        Re: Brexit

        'On the contrary it should have been leave with no deal or stay.

        Of course, then the result would have been a unanimous "remain", because that's not what the brexitters were asking for at the time: (Proof in the links)

        Boris Johnson said we'd stay in the single-market.

        As did Farage, and many others..

        As did MEP Dan Hannan: "Nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market"

        Andrea Leadsom said we will have the same access to the single market.

        Boris Johnson: "There is no plan for no deal because we are going to get a great deal"

        John Redwood and Rees-Mogg said a second referendum would be a good idea once a deal has been finalised.

        Then we would be able to get on with life the day after the referendum and all te negotiations could have been done after leaving...wit a series of letter of intent in place in the two year period to sort out tit for tat arrangements, like you can fly in my airspace if I can fly in yours, and I wont hold your trucks up at Dover if you don't hold mine up at |Calais.

        There is no "2 year leaving period" with no deal. And unfortunately, your much needed unicorns don't exist either.

        If the EU had been prepared to act like adults. that would have been it."
        LOL. Seriously?

        The EU has been completely professional. Our lot have been the embarrassing laughing stock of the world.

      5. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Brexit

        "On the contrary it should have been leave with no deal or stay."

        In that case, remain would have won. There was almost no mention of a No Deal Brexit in the campaign and on the few occasions the question was put to the leave campaign leaders, the option was pooh poohed as extremely unlikely. Even by the Boris!

        Many Leave voters were seduced by the "easy deal" they were told we would get with the EU.

      6. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: Brexit

        On the contrary it should have been leave with no deal or stay

        Indeed, then when everyone knew what they were actually voting for, rather than all the various and conflicting promises, they wouldn't have voted to leave at all, and we wouldn't have had to deal with this whole sorry mess.

    2. Stoneshop Silver badge
      Headmaster

      Re: Brexit

      Have a maximum 15 years withdrawl period

      Sorry, but Texas won't ever be in the EU.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Brexit

        Texans are used to not being anywhere. They aren't in the West, either.

      2. julian.smith

        Re:Texas

        Their military record is less than stellar

        Texas’s war record "couldn’t cut hot butter"

        https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-god-awful-military-record-of-the-texas-republic-b23bac554bc3

        Couldn't get a fcuk in a brothel

    3. nematoad Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Brexit

      "Have a maximum 15 years withdrawl period"

      Well it may not be called a withdrawal period but leaving the EU is not the end of the process, it is just the start. When/if we leave there will have to be talks on a new set of trade deals and that is not going to be easy. If I recall correctly the treaty between Canada and the EU the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) took over seven years to negotiate, so a new EU UK trade agreement won't be signed any time soon.

      So, your statement about fifteen years may be a bit pessimistic but not by much.

      Funny how Johnson, Farage and co don't mention that in their demands for a "clean break."

    4. SundogUK Silver badge

      Re: Brexit

      So the referendum you wanted was: 1. Stay in the EU; or 2. Stay in the EU. Quelle surprise

      1. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

        Re: Brexit

        No. Just an honest option of the time scale needed. Remember I said a maximum of 15 years. If it was achieved before all well and good. And it would have given parliament a time frame and mandate from the people to work towards. FTFY

    5. Psmo Bronze badge

      Re: Brexit

      Have a maximum 15 years withdrawal period

      Could be 3, 5, 15 or 50 years.

      They'd still only start working on a deal six months before the deadline.

      1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

        Re: Six months before the deadline

        Evidence so far is years after the deadline.

        1. Stoneshop Silver badge

          Re: Six months before the deadline

          Something about whooshing sounds as they pass by.

      2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: Brexit

        Well actually it can't be anything other than leaving in 2 years. Because Article 50 of the Treaty states that is the time available to negotiated a withdrawal agreement taking into account the future relationship.

        Obviously that time can be changed by unanimous agreement of all the member states - but not by the UK government alone, so couldn't be offered as choice in a referendum.

        Similarly the reason for the confusion about whether the UK government will get an extension - complained about in the article - is that Parliament has legislated and therefore probably forced the government to ask for an extension, but that doesn't actually guarantee it gets one. That has to be agreed unanimously by all members. Which they may refuse to do, or only do with conditions.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Brexit

      >>>The 2 options in the vote should have been

      There is a 3rd way: Throw England out of the UK. Job done. Let's call it, "Eexit”.

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: Brexit

        There is a 3rd way: Throw England out of the UK.

        Erm, and what about Wales? Or don't they count?

        1. Stoneshop Silver badge
          Trollface

          Erm, and what about Wales?

          Or don't they count?

          It appears they do: un, dau, tri, pedwar, pump, chwech, saith, wyth, naw, deg.

          It also appears they more or less count in French, with an added speech impediment.

          1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
            Happy

            Re: Erm, and what about Wales?

            I can't count to ten in French. I have a huit allergy...

            [all complaints about this joke should be addressed to Tim Vine]

    7. Sam Liddicott

      Re: Brexit

      To be fair, we should have had a vote on joining the EU in 1992.

      if the voters who have lamentably aged 27 years in the intervening period could have voted then, we would have to be in this mess now.

  5. A.P. Veening Silver badge

    Ah, now it all makes sen...wtf?

    Ah, now it all makes sen...wtf?

    Since then things have only got more confusing. But as of the time of writing - late UK time on Friday October 4 - we are in a mind-bending standoff where the UK Parliament has passed a law requiring the prime minister/government to extend the Brexit date to January 2020 if he is unable to reach a deal before October 31.

    The UK government/prime minister has formally said he will respect that law in documents filed in court while at the same time saying in public that he will not and Britain will leave without a deal on Halloween.

    There is a very simple answer to this apparent contradiction. Boris Johnson (or whoever succeeds him as PM before it becomes necessary) will have to request that extension in case of a no deal. However, Boris Johnson also already knows this request will be denied, thus making it possible to keep that second promise of a Brexit by Halloween.

    1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

      Re: Ah, now it all makes sen...wtf?

      Possibly. Or, he intends to obey the letter of the law, i.e. request an extension.

      IANAL but does the Benn Law actually compel Borris to actually accept an extension, should EU grant one? Or does it just say he must request one? In law the two are not the same.

      That fits with the "We'll obey the law and will leave on Halloween" narrative.

      1. Dave Schofield

        Re: Ah, now it all makes sen...wtf?

        >IANAL but does the Benn Law actually compel Borris to actually accept an extension, should EU grant one? Or does it just say he must request one? In law the two are not the same.

        The Benn Act means that he has to take any extension to Parliament for MPs to vote on accepting it.

    2. TechnicalBen Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: Solution!

      By law, change the date/day. Just put all the calendars, like what, 100 years ahead? Then any deadlines and targets will have passed and gone, and we can just make it up as we go!

      1. stiine Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Solution!

        Lear already did that in 1980, they gave December a 32nd day and had calendars printed and delivered.

      2. heyrick Silver badge

        Re: Solution!

        "and we can just make it up as we go!"

        I thought we were?

  6. Danny 2 Silver badge

    Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

    Boris' girl is on GMTV just now, the first time I've ever seen Piers Morgan seem smart by comparison. None of her companies has ever made a profit. Her sole tech claim is she ran the first ever Google Hangout with Boris Johnson on it. She refuses to say if she shagged him. Eight staff in the UK.

    Dishonest, narcissistic, corrupt, ugly, blond, and now he's being exposed by Jennifer.

    1. itzman
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

      I thought his girl was Carrie Symonds?

      Honestly no one - even Boris - Gives a **** about Jennifer Arcuri. Only people with Brexit axes to grind...

      1. Danny 2 Silver badge

        Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

        The fact she has earned hundreds of thousands of pounds of government grants, and inclusion on at least four government foreign trade trips, may annoy certain actual IT folk, even if they are pro-Brexit.

        It is your lack of outrage that seems disingenuous. I mean, whose leg do I have to shag to get a Martini around here?

      2. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

        Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

        So you don't care what illegalities your PM has been up to?

        Way to go...

    2. Oh Matron!

      Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

      I'm confused as to who you're talking about:

      BJ

      His bit of fluff

      Piers Morgan

    3. jake Silver badge

      Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

      Who the fuck is Jennifer Arcuri? Never heard of her.

      No, I'm not going to go ogle it, I don't go ogle at the best of times.

      1. Danny 2 Silver badge

        Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

        She was a 27 year old student who GLC gave a £100,000 grant for being an "InnoTech", after she'd introduced BoZo to her lap dancing pole in her office/bedroom.

        1. Mr Dogshit
          FAIL

          Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

          Put her occupation down as "Ethical Hacker" on Companies House.

          1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

            Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

            I know she's not a hacker: because there are no pictures of her in a hoodie.

        2. Noonoot

          Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

          She is also not denying that there was an affair or not.

          It's becoming a good way to earn some a few bucks - just admit or don't admit that you had a shag with some politician and wait to be interviewed by Piers Morgan.

          1. Danny 2 Silver badge

            Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

            Allegedly she was asking for £200,000 for that interview, more than Boris gave her from taxpayer funds.

            She said at one point, "This isn't a Monica Lewinsky". Aye, no joke. Lewinsky never grafted that much cash.

          2. Rich 11 Silver badge

            Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

            and wait to be interviewed by Piers Morgan

            Too high a price.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

        I rather suspect that my 10 detractors (as of this writing) might be rather surprised to learn that over here in California we don't give a shit about your PM's "affairs of state". Really. Such things aren't important enough to make our News broadcast's useless trivia time filler, and we certainly aren't watching yours. For the record, I had really never heard of her. Sadly, it didn't stay that way.

    4. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

      Dishonest, narcissistic, corrupt, ugly, blond,

      Wow, so being blond is wrong, now? Funny, I never noticed it being an issue for the Scandinavians.

      1. Danny 2 Silver badge

        Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

        Ugly isn't wrong either, I was simply listing similarities for comedic effect.

      2. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

        Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

        Thumbs up. Has nothing to do with either party's hair colour or sex/sexuality. What they did is being questioned about its legality. I wait for the evidence, not looking good right now but that could change

    5. SVV Silver badge

      Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

      More info emerging now : she got a total of £127,000 in grants and taken on trade missions despite being a 27 year old student with no track record. Despite this being taxpayer's money, which is everyone's business, she says thet her relationship with Johnson is nobody else's business.

      And even better : She applied for the £100K a year job as CEO of publicly funded Tech City, the East London hipster tech startup shack, and who do you think wrote her a reference? Yep, Boris Johnson.

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

        Re: Jennifer Arcuri, Tech Innovator

        “Probably the worst scholar Eton ever sent us – a buffoon and an idler,”

        https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/06/boris-johnson-classics-prime-minister-latin-greek

    6. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Joke

      Mrs Merton

      “So what first attracted you to the millionaire Paul Daniels?

      “So what first attracted you to the Mayor of London Boris Johnson?

  7. Anonymous Custard Silver badge

    Yes EU Minister

    Am I the only one who thinks this reads like a modern day update of Yes (Prime) Minister?

    1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

      Re: Yes EU Minister

      That wasn't satire, it was just the dress rehearsel ;)

    2. Danny 2 Silver badge

      Re: Yes EU Minister

      Oui, Ministre.

      Each nation gets to nominate a single language as an official EU language, and only the UK chose English. The Republic of Ireland chose Irish Gaelic. If and when the UK leaves then English will no longer be an official EU language, despite it being the lingua franca of the EU.

      Yes, Minister was remade in India and Turkey but never in Europe. Fawlty Towers (which is much more akin to Brexit imo) was a success throughout Europe, although Manuel in Spain was redubbed into a stupid Italian waiter.

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: Yes EU Minister

        and only the UK chose English.

        Malta is an EU member, and also listed English as it's official language.

        If and when the UK leaves then English will no longer be an official EU language,

        The Maltese get very upset when people suggest that.

        1. Danny 2 Silver badge

          Re: Yes EU Minister

          "Malta is an EU member, and also listed English as it's official language."

          According to this the Maltese chose Maltese. They were able to opt for English to be their secondary language, just like the Irish did, only because the UK had already chosen it.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union#Official_EU_languages

          You English folk missed a trick. Just after Shakespeare you should have copyrighted the English language. Although obviously you'd have faced lawsuits for all the 'borrowed' words.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Yes EU Minister

        >Each nation gets to nominate a single language as an official EU language, and only the UK chose English. The Republic of Ireland chose Irish Gaelic. If and when the UK leaves then English will no longer be an official EU language, despite it being the lingua franca of the EU.

        This is even funnier when you realise that *by law*, the only official language in the UK is Welsh. The other 13 official languages in the UK are de facto languages and not specified anywhere in law.

        1. Rich 11 Silver badge

          Re: Yes EU Minister

          Mae hynny'n gweithio i mi.

      3. Stork Silver badge

        Re: Yes EU Minister

        Yes Minister was also a big success in Denmark, subtitled of course. I do think the translators struggled at times

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Yes EU Minister

      Do you not remember the euro-sausage?

      Hacker needed a quick burst of popularity in order to polish his campaign to be Prime Minister. Sir Humphrey gave him the blackmail material to knock out the two main candidates and then they talked up the imminent new EU regs that would ban all the disgusting barely meat British sausages - only to then save the day at the last minute with a compromise deal to allow them.

      I'm sure I remembe reading about a real campaign (in the 90s?) at EU level to do something similar about chocolate. Don't think it got that far though. Given that Cadbury's is barely 20% cocoa and a similar amount of milk, so is basically a pressed bar of sugar with milk and chocolate flavouring - some of our most poplular choccies would have fallen foul of this. I have some sympathy, given the much cheaper (and much nicer) choccie you can pick up the other side of the Channel. Even just the supermarket own brand stuff in Belgium was similar or better quality than Thorntons, without the premium price. Aldi have some top-quality cheapy Germany choccies - I think their brand being Moser Roth. 70% cocoa dark bars with Sour Cherry and chilli. Yum!

      1. Dave559

        Chocolate

        The EU, understandably, wanted a clear legal definition of the quality of products that could be called chocolate. For milk chocolate, there must be not less than 30% cocoa content. The kind of mediocre low-cocoa, high-milk chocolate products very common in the UK (and Ireland) should be referred to as "family milk chocolate" elsewhere. Other vegetable fats are pemitted, but must be clearly labelled.

        Source: Directive 2000/36/EC

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Yes EU Minister

        Cadbury's isn't chocolate. It's a confection allegedly containing chocolate.

      3. VerySlowData
        Thumb Up

        Re: Yes EU Minister

        upvote for Aldi Moser Roth chocolate (the 85% Dark is great, and good for you!)

  8. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

    GFA?

    I'm waiting for someone to bring the Good Friday agreement into this. What if your .eu domain is registered to an address in Belfast, is that in the UK or Ireland? The GFA could be interpreted as saying "both", which should really make some eurocrat's head explode.

    1. Danny 2 Silver badge

      Re: GFA?

      Some Northern Ireland sites already cleverly use the .ni ccTLD.

      Nicaragua, that peaceful oasis of business certainty in a post Brexit world.

      1. Stoneshop Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: GFA?

        Some Northern Ireland sites already cleverly use the .ni ccTLD.

        Someone has been asleep at the wheel.

        $ dig theknightswhosay.ni

        ; <<>> DiG 9.10.3-P4-Debian <<>> theknightswhosay.ni

        ;; global options: +cmd

        ;; Got answer:

        ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN

    2. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

      Re: GFA?

      I'm waiting for both sides to publically recognise no deal guarantees an instant hard border, despite both sides insisting the GFA must not be broken.

      1. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

        Re: GFA?

        Cannot see the EU making such a disastrous compromise, would destroy their credibility and cause so many problems. And it is the law, a law that stopped so much suffering. If you didn't grow up and was affected by that war (don't call it the troubles) you have no right to comment

        1. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

          Re: GFA?

          If I down vote a comment I post a reply to say why. I invite you to do the same. I would be fascinated to engage you on it

          1. SundogUK Silver badge

            Re: GFA?

            Passive/Aggressive much?

            1. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

              Re: GFA?

              Called please tell me why you disagree so we can have a discourse about it. An exchange of ideas. An argument where the facts can be laid out and a logical conclusion decided upon. Or we can carry on shouting with no one listening. Personally I prefer the former, if you don't want to listen, is it because you don't want to know, or because you are not willing to defend your logic

            2. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: GFA?

          Our rights are not determined by our proximity to whatever the right is about.

          You have the right to ignore comment from anyone that you don't feel is worthy, but everyone has a right to comment on whatever they like.

          edit: I don't use the upvote/downvote buttons because I am older than 12.

          1. James 51
            Facepalm

            Re: GFA?

            Actually, they are. People born in the Northern Ireland have rights under the GFA that people born in the rest of the UK do not automatically get i.e. the right to an Irish passport.

            edit:Because the post I responded to was edited this doesn't make sense anymore. Orginally, it was about rights not being determined by brithright/location.

            1. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

              Re: GFA?

              Upvote for being spot on, but Ireland is already having a surge in passport applications. So getting processed in time for Halloween on this matter is unlikely. And if crash out happens that number will increase. And mine will be in there as well

              1. James 51

                Re: GFA?

                You'd hope that as long as the application is received by a cut off date, it would still be processed fairly even if it ends up being awarded after a cut off date. The Irish government could still honour their side of the GFA re passports unilaterally after Brexit is completed.

                1. Danny 2 Silver badge

                  Re: GFA?

                  "The Irish government could still honour their side of the GFA re passports unilaterally after Brexit is completed."

                  This is where it gets 'tangled up in blue'. Long before the GFA and the EEC, Irish and British folk had the right to travel passport free in both states. Most of these mutual agreements date back to 1928.

                  I flew from Edinburgh to Dublin and lived and worked there for a year on my British driving licence, no passport, and I could have stayed there still if I'd wanted - as can Irish folk in the UK. The Republic and the UK were a no borders area predating the EU by many decades.

                  1. Mage Silver badge
                    Boffin

                    Re: Free Travel Area

                    Free Travel Area for people since 1920s: True.

                    But there WAS a border. Goods and Services. Even your own test gear needed a Carnet.

                    Even the trains stopped for customs checks at one stage.

                    Also true that the Irish Pound was really Sterling till 1978, with parity ending 30th March 1979.

                    Joining the Common Market in 1973 was the beginning of the end, but a Carnet was still needed in 1978 at least. It was only the GFA that finally removed the physical border.

                    The GFA only worked because UK and Ireland were both in the CM/EEC/EU. It's an international treaty between Ireland and UK that was produced with the help of some Americans.

                    The Leave side ignored the GFA, Scotland and NI and lied about EU and what was involved. The Article 50 was largely created at UK insistence and content decided by them. UK signed that off. The A50 sets out how a country leaves. The only negotiating aspect is the bill for future liabilities. Thus the Withdrawal agreement only has aspirations about future relationship. Nothing binding.

                    Ireland is an EU member, thus the border between NI (part of UK) and Ireland is a UK - EU border and ALSO covered by the GFA agreement, an international treaty. The Leave side lied about how leave would work and BOTH sides ignored N.I.

                    A no-deal makes UK a breaker of multiple international treaties, all of which were freely entered.

                    The Squaring of the Circle (Options):

                    1) Cancelling the A50 invocation due to Referendum being invalid. The Swiss do this.

                    2) N.I. remains in EU and part of UK. Complicated but legally possible. See Denmark & Greenland.

                    3) N.I. leaves UK and is either independent in EU, or federated* with Ireland or becomes part of Ireland.

                    No other option is long term. The May agreement was an EU compromise intended to be temporary. No-one in EU wanted the entire UK Backstop (UK's proposal). Even the original proposal by EU of N.I. only backstop was supposed to be temporary till something better happened.

                    The current UK proposal creates TWO borders for N.I. Everyone apart from DUP claims it's worse than no deal. Also Arlene Foster left Unionists to join DUP because she hated GFA. The DUP are a minority party, less than 30% of those that vote. They never agreed with GFA.

                    Cameron created this mess and had the cheek to resign straight after the result.

                    1. Wellyboot Silver badge

                      Re: Free Travel Area

                      For No.3 - I can't see any way that would work without kicking off a few more decades of blood letting and quite possibly another Irish civil war.

                    2. SundogUK Silver badge

                      Re: Free Travel Area

                      A nation can withdraw from any and all international treaties they are party to, if they no longer serve their purpose. Quite obviously the GFA doesn't. The UK and the Unionists in NI are not going to kick off and start killing people if that happens, so we know very well who would be responsible if violence does return.

                2. Mage Silver badge
                  Facepalm

                  Re: till honour their side of the GFA re passports

                  The Irish citizenship requirements (which for people outside NI are hardly affected by GFA) are not at all affected by a legal Brexit or a "no deal" Brexit.

                  The Irish citizenship requirements for people in N.I. due to GFA are not at all affected by a legal Brexit or a "no deal" Brexit.

                  If you can prove Irish citizenship, you can get a passport.

                  Most N.I. people only need a birth cert to prove citizenship and if native N.I. people they are already Irish. Contrary to what Home Office claims N.I. people do not explicitly have to fill in a form and pay a fee to revoke UK citizenship.

                  The GFA agreement is about having Irish, British or both Identities as the persons there wish. The GFA and the EU are primarily peace treaties and secondarily about economics. Irish, N.I., Scottish & Welsh people understand about being European. Some in Westminster even on "Remain" side are only interested in economic benefits, not peace and the idea of dual local National and wider European identity.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: till honour their side of the GFA re passports

                    Upvoted as this is one of the few comments to point out that GFA is a peace treaty at heart, and the E.U. is largely about peace.

                    1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                      Re: till honour their side of the GFA re passports

                      the E.U. is largely about peace.

                      The best way to have peace is for everyone to choose to work together for their common good, while retaining their individual identities and goals. The Common Market was an excellent example of that. The EU's model is based on centralised control and goals, which will always fail. The more politicians try to legislate for peace through control, the more people will push back. Eventually it backfires, creating division and extremism, which is exactly what we're seeing across the EU today.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: GFA?

              >Actually, they are. People born in the Northern Ireland have rights under the GFA that people born in the rest of the UK do not automatically get i.e. the right to an Irish passport.

              And the British government has already unilaterally decided to remove the rights of NI residents to self-declare as *both* Irish and British - as allowed under the GFA.

              1. James 51

                Re: GFA?

                Actually, they pay lip service to keeping it going but given BoJo's cat in a box approach to reailty, it's possible they're going to try to do both.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: GFA?

                >And the British government has already unilaterally decided to remove the rights of NI residents to self-declare as *both* Irish and British - as allowed under the GFA.

                Interesting I get 2 downvotes for this.

                Nationality rights under GFA:

                https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/about-northern-ireland

                "Northern Ireland is part of the UK. However, under the Belfast Agreement, also known as the Good Friday Agreement, people born in Northern Ireland can choose to be British citizens, Irish citizens or both. If they choose to be both British and Irish citizens, this means they have a dual citizenship."

                And the reality of how the British government is treating those that choose to exercise those rights:

                https://twitter.com/EmmandJDeSouza/status/1180112893192343552?s=20

                https://twitter.com/naomi_long/status/1180100691718791168?s=20

                IIRC This is going through the courts now.

                TL:DR - the British government is removing the rights to self-determine nationality granted under the GFA.

            3. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

              Re: GFA?

              People born in the Northern Ireland have rights under the GFA that people born in the rest of the UK do not automatically get i.e. the right to an Irish passport.

              The Irish government has always accepted that anyone born anywhere on the island of Ireland is entitled to claim Irish citizenship and an Irish passport, it's not connected to the provisions of the GFA.

          2. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

            Re: GFA?

            Intresting stance, but I find it incredible insular. Absolutely in line with the age of social media. No responsibility is required.

            And yes I downvoted you despite being a tad older than 12. I remember my grandmother telling me. If you cannot defend your actions or words, just shut up. If you can,I'll listen

      2. Cederic Silver badge

        Re: GFA?

        I disagree that this is an inevitable outcome.

        Assuming that the UK are comfortable with allowing visa free travel to EU citizens then people crossing the Irish border are no different in a no-deal scenario than non-EU citizens crossing that border today. We successfully operate with that challenge now, so why wouldn't we then?

        Regarding goods, again, any goods crossing that border are currently subject to a currency translation and different tax rules. In a no-deal scenario, they would be subject to a currency translation and different tax rules. Why would we need a hard border in relation to those?

        I don't see the need and feel that anybody implying otherwise is intentionally attempting to cause division and working to destroy peace in Northern Ireland. Stop it.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: GFA?

          "Regarding goods, again, any goods crossing that border are currently subject to a currency translation and different tax rules. In a no-deal scenario, they would be subject to a currency translation and different tax rules. Why would we need a hard border in relation to those?"

          Because EU tariffs on non-EU states without a free trade agreement.

          1. Cederic Silver badge

            Re: GFA?

            Shrug, what the EU do in Ireland is of no concern to the UK, unless the EU act in breach of the Good Friday Agreement.

            Are you suggesting that the EU would implement a hard border, in contravention of the Agreement? I fail to see how this can be blamed on the UK Government.

  9. JohnG

    Given that the people most likely to have a .eu domain are likely to be supportive of the EU, the EC's action in respect of these domains seem a bit of a shot in the foot.

    About the government position/statements about the Benn law: The law requires the government to send a letter to the EC, requesting a Brexit extension - it does not require them to achieve a Brexit extension.

    1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

      About the government position/statements about the Benn law: The law requires the government to send a letter to the EC, requesting a Brexit extension - it does not require them to achieve a Brexit extension.

      See also my post stating the same. And by now I am pretty sure BoJo already knows such a request will be denied, which will allow him to keep his promise of a Halloween Brexit.

      1. Danny 2 Silver badge

        You haven't yet explained why you think an extension request will be rejected.

        https://leave.eu/join-the-team/

        1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

          I don't, I wrote I am pretty sure BoJo knows, I never said he wasn't mistaken (which will make him break a promise). OTOH, one can hope. And as far as Brexit goes, I am neither in the "Remain" nor "Leave" camp, I am in the continental "Good bye and good luck" camp.

          1. Danny 2 Silver badge

            Hiya APV,

            This is probably the first thing you've written that I disagree with: "I am pretty sure BoJo knows"

            Do you see who his tech advisor was? I mentioned her earlier on this thread. I doubt BoJo knows anything except where the nearest possible date is.

            I voted for Brexit both out of principle and lack of principle. I believe in Scottish independence so the principle was smaller and more local government. My lack of principle was I knew the Tories would muck this up and split our nations apart. I said from the start though we'd need a confirmatory vote on any negotiated deal - I was so naive, assuming we'd get a negotiated deal.

            I admit I'm a wee bit worried now because I haven't stocked up on anything, and my parents do rely on medicine from Europe to survive. The IT angle is secondary but it is interesting. This article is about .eu domains becoming defunct, and nobody has explained how to stop them being acquired for nefarious purposes. I've been reading the blogs and papers while posting here, and if you are an EU citizen or have a trustworthy EU citizen on your board then it shouldn't be a problem. There are just under 400,000 UK based companies that have .eu addresses.

            1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

              This is probably the first thing you've written that I disagree with: "I am pretty sure BoJo knows"

              Do you see who his tech advisor was? I mentioned her earlier on this thread. I doubt BoJo knows anything except where the nearest possible date is.

              Maybe I should have used "I am pretty sure BoJo thinks/believes he knows". On the other hand, he is a politician so judged unreliable to start with.

              There still is time to stock up on most things.

              This article is about .eu domains becoming defunct, and nobody has explained how to stop them being acquired for nefarious purposes. I've been reading the blogs and papers while posting here, and if you are an EU citizen or have a trustworthy EU citizen on your board then it shouldn't be a problem. There are just under 400,000 UK based companies that have .eu addresses.

              And that small number is exactly why the incompetent EU bureaucrats (with excuses for the redundant tautological pleonasm) think they can get away with cancelling those after Brexit.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        BoJo already knows such a request will be denied

        Even if it isn't, does he have to accept it? Benn's Surrender Act just requires him to ask for one.

        1. Danny 2 Silver badge

          "Benn's Surrender Act" - it is telling that you post that rhetoric anonymously here, but the British PM uses it unashamedly in the Houses of Parliament. I guess this is just a higher class forum.

          1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

            Not so much "surrender" as voluntarily throw away your nuclear option, then somehow expect to negotiate from a strong position.

            Not that we had a strong position to start with. Relative economic size UK vs EU makes that blindingly obvious. No deal nuclear option was the only real leverage, because that's the only thing that can enconomically disadvantage the EU.

            Of course it inflicts the same (or more) economic pain on UK too, but that's why you never want to use your nuclear option, just have it as a neogiation lever.

            1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

              For the nuclear option to be viable as a negotiation lever, the other side must be convinced you are willing and prepared to use it and it must be perceived to be devastating enough. The no deal "nuclear option" is failing in at least two of those three points.

              1. werdsmith Silver badge

                The no deal is not a negotiation strength. The EU don't believe Boris and they see through it as being so obvious and naive a cat would be ashamed.

                1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

                  And besides that it won't be devastating to the remainder of the EU. The Dutch will bear the brunt of it and shake that of easily enough.

                  1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

                    Yup and that's Borris' miscalculation. It will have some impact, but mostly for us. European economy being so much larger, mitigates their damage.

                    But as he's shorting the pound, he doesn't care anyway.

                    1. disgustedoftunbridgewells Silver badge

                      "But as he's shorting the pound, he doesn't care anyway."

                      Not that Boris is likely to sue you for that, but you've just committed libel.

                      1. stiine Silver badge

                        Even if it turns out to be true? Which, if it is, won't your queen have him executed?

                        1. disgustedoftunbridgewells Silver badge

                          Boris isn't shorting the pound.

                          That is a ludicrous suggestion that the poster surely knows to be a lie.

                          The actual smear being pushed by the Labour party is that Boris's funders are shorting British companies

                          so Boris is meant to intentionally harm the economy for them.

                          This doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. The Financial Times ( which supports the Labour party, will back Corbyn at the next election and is firmly anti-brexit ) did an analysis on it and found it to be a complete fabrication.

                          The MP which raised this in parliament ( the shadow chancellor ) knows it to be a falsehood and knew so before he raised it. It was a political smear.

                          But not knowing that is at least understandable if you are generally uninformed. Claiming that Boris is himself shorting the pound is libellous.

                          I understand people being uninformed and repeating fragments of what they overheard in the pub. I understand people being stupid.

                          What I don't understand is why somebody would intentionally lie to further their position. Either they have a good argument for it and therefore should use that, or don't have a good argument and therefore should reconsider their position.

                          So why lie?

                          1. Danny 2 Silver badge

                            Disgusted, your outrage is false. If Boris Johnson were to sue anyone for the 'libel' of ascribing his behaviour due to shorting the pound, then he'd have to start with his own sister.

                            https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2019/09/26/a-bbc-hosts-jaw-dropping-response-to-a-bombshell-from-boris-johnsons-sister/

                            During an appearance on BBC Radio 4‘s World at One show on 26 September, Rachel Johnson dropped a bombshell about her brother. And the BBC host’s reaction was absolutely jaw-dropping too.

                            During the interview, Johnson spoke about what she thought was behind the PM’s “strongman gambit” in getting the UK out of the EU. After noting her brother’s role, and the role of his chief adviser Dominic Cummings, she said:

                            "It also could be from, who knows, people who have invested billions in shorting the pound or shorting the country in the expectation of a no-deal Brexit. We don’t know."

                            1. disgustedoftunbridgewells Silver badge

                              Did you even read that quote or my post?

                              My contention is the intentional lie about Boris himself shorting the pound, which he is not.

                              She doesn't even say that the slur is true, she just suggests it as a possibility.

                              Why are you trying to support that lie with an unrelated quote?

                  2. Lars

                    As the Dutch was mentioned here is a Dutch view of Boris and the Irish border, (in the official language of the EU, bad English).

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttSjWUPhJXs

                    As we know countries tent to trade a lot with their neighbours so when Britain creates a problem it's obvious neighbouring countries like Ireland and the Netherlands will be more affected.

                    However the Dutch export is:

                    Germany 24.2%, Belgium 10.7%, UK 8.8%, France 8.8%, Italy 4.2% (2017)

                    In short, 42,9% with only 4 out of the 27 and only 8.8 with the UK.

                    For Ireland the export is:

                    US 27.1%, UK 13.4%, Belgium 11%, Germany 8.1%, Switzerland 5.1%, Netherlands 4.9%, France 4.3% (2017)

                    Again only 5 out of the 27 makes up 33,4%, then the US 27,1 and the UK 13,4%.

                    For official numbers, if converted to dollars, try:

                    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/resources/the-world-factbook/

                    The "clean break" is as idiotic as "clean coal", all that will happen is that trade negotiations will start from the same three questions as originally. People rights, the outstanding obligations, sillily called the divorce bill, and the Irish border.

                    And of course none of the British problems are due to membership of the EU and none will be mended due to leaving the EU.

                    1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

                      And of course none of the British problems are due to membership of the EU and none will be mended due to leaving the EU.

                      But leaving will create a whole new set of problems, which will overshadow the existing ones to such a degree they will seem to disappear.

                2. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

                  Agree

                  And upvoted, most of us deal with IT legislation and contracts and that alone is complicated enough. This is of another level. EU will/have to stick to their laws/contracts. I have no idea what the UK is doing. Outside of the bluster I see no logic. And the world as it is needs better than this

              2. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

                Perhaps. However, it's clearly the only real leverage BoJo thinks he has, or he wouldn't be consistently threatening no deal. May was never prepared to use it, publically so, and regardless of personal feelings it did weaken her hand. Negotiation isn't all touchy-feely and being nice to each other. Certainly not at this scale. Both sides want everything and to give up nothing. How much each side gives up ultimately depends on the damage the other side can inflict (be that social, economic, militarial, whatever). You can dress it in diplomatic niceties but in the end it's about limiting damage. No one is coming out of this better off than before.

                BoJo comes across as more than willing to use no-deal. Whether he will ultimately follow through it is another matter. But, from his short-sighted politician point of view, no deal won't personally damage him, he's wealthy enough to ride out the storm and can always bugger off the the US if things get too hot here.

                Is no-deal the right option? Of course not, but he's never publically stated it's not an option for him. Therefore, some could argue his tactic has been partially effective. Consider the EU stance toward May of "we won't reopen the WA under any circumstances" to the current position of "give us an alternative to the backstop and we'll consider it, we aren't wedded to it."

                Is a consitent plausible threat of no-deal behind the change? Maybe.

                Does Jean-Claude Junker's want to see this done before stepping down on October 31st? Also maybe.

                Is BoJo bluffing? Again maybe. We'll find out on 1st November, since there's pretty much zero chance of his new proposals being accepted by the EU, and the UK has made it clear 3 times now it won't accept the backstop.

                Off course all this could have been avoided by treating the referendum as advisory, as it actually was, and saying to the EU "look, there's a lot of people very unhappy with how things are, something has to change before this gets worse."

                1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

                  >> Off course all this could have been avoided by treating the referendum as advisory, as it actually was, and saying to the EU "look, there's a lot of people very unhappy with how things are, something has to change before this gets worse." <<

                  Off course, but David Cameron screwed that up by declaring it binding (and being surprised by the outcome). A lot of this could have been avoided by declaring it binding if at least two thirds of the votes had been for Leave with at least two thirds of the voters voting. And even at that it would still have been a minority voting for Leave.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    @A.P. Veening

                    " A lot of this could have been avoided by declaring it binding if at least two thirds of the votes had been for Leave with at least two thirds of the voters voting."

                    Or make that the requirement for remain. The electorate is behind leave 3-0 so far and as much as we are told the polls claim otherwise leave is still the option chosen. So apply that criteria to remain and you find it cannot be won.

                    "And even at that it would still have been a minority voting for Leave."

                    You got the word wrong. Majority. Majority voted leave 3-0. Its not a dispute nor complicated, it is the fact.

                    1. Lars
                      Thumb Down

                      Re: @A.P. Veening

                      @codejunky

                      You do know that the majority of British MEP are for remain, if not, you have been fooled by Farage who claims something else because he got the biggest group.

                      In May's snap election she lost her majority, in short 3-0 is just silly.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: @A.P. Veening

                        @Lars

                        "You do know that the majority of British MEP are for remain, if not, you have been fooled by Farage who claims something else because he got the biggest group."

                        So? The majority of MP's are for remain, we still have the definitive answer of leave as the directive from the voters. As in the voters themselves decided for themselves what they wanted and the democratic vote resulted in leave.

                        "In May's snap election she lost her majority, in short 3-0 is just silly."

                        Silly because its true? It isnt wrong and its an uncomfortable fact if you want remain. Thats why it is worth reiterating as some fools seem to believe we want to remain in the EU.

                  2. A.P. Veening Silver badge

                    Yup, a 51% majority with less than half the eligible voters even voting. What a majority. And that is supposed to be binding? Even as advisory I wouldn't take it seriously, thank god it is not my country.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      @A.P. Veening

                      "Yup, a 51% majority"

                      And there you go. We dont force people to vote yet we had one of the highest turnouts and by the rules of the vote leave won. That isnt a grey area or disputed it is fact.

                      If the wet dream was true that there was such glorious support for the EU then leave wouldnt have won 3-0 so far. If you wouldnt take that seriously then I am glad you are not in my country. Feel free to live in whatever dictatorship.

                      1. Hollerithevo Silver badge

                        Re: @A.P. Veening

                        You keep saying 'won 3-0 so far' - I do not think it means what you think it means. Because 3-0 is not true. Saying it over an over does not make it true.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: @A.P. Veening

                          @Hollerithevo

                          "You keep saying 'won 3-0 so far' - I do not think it means what you think it means. Because 3-0 is not true. Saying it over an over does not make it true."

                          Actually it is true. 1 referendum, 1 GE, 1 MEP election. 3-0. The amusement being that there was only supposed to be the referendum and then it gets done, we shouldnt have even been there for the MEP election.

                          But yes 3-0, it is true and I do repeat it because some people dont seem to understand that it is true.

                      2. Vincent Ballard
                        FAIL

                        Re: @A.P. Veening

                        The vote was an opinion poll, not a contest. The rules didn't say anything about winning.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: @A.P. Veening

                          @Vincent Ballard

                          "The vote was an opinion poll, not a contest. The rules didn't say anything about winning."

                          With the majority opinion (to be acted upon the day of the result) was leave the EU. Then leave parties were elected. Then leave MEP's gained the majority. 3-0

                2. Not also known as SC

                  @J2C

                  I think you're giving Johnson too much credit. He comes across as a short term opportunist looking only as his own advancement. Threatening a hard / no-deal Brexit is just his way of trying to convince Brexit party members to vote Tory in the next election. The Conservatives are apparently more worried than Labour seem to be about having their vote split (and don't give two monkeys about their remain voting supporters). Remember Johnson is supposed to have written two columns for the paper he was a columnist for; one arguing for remaining in the EU, and one against staying. Johnson doesn't really seem to care which we do as long as it comes across as the most politically expedient.

                3. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

                  The whole problem

                  Was the way the vote was done. My parents know they voted leave. But if I push them they have no idea what that meant in reality. But the lies from the side of the bus get recycled. Luckily we are able to discuss it and what comes out was anger at what were UK laws and political decision that swayed their vote. I'm lucky, I work else where, but I have every reason to worry for them

                  1. SundogUK Silver badge

                    Re: The whole problem

                    "My parents know they voted remain. But if I push them they have no idea what that meant in reality."

            2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              "Not that we had a strong position to start with."

              When 48% of the population are against leaving in the first place, probably more are against leaving with no deal, then there was never a "strong" negotiating position. This was clear from the moment the referendum results were announced.

        2. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge
          Devil

          Rushed through as it was, that's entirely possible. Everyone was so caught up in getting one over on BoJo they forgot the devil's in the details.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          >Even if it isn't, does he have to accept it? Benn's Surrender Act just requires him to ask for one.

          It requires him to ask for one, and put it to Parliament for approval.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            re: Benn's Surrender Act

            Stop pretending we're at war with Europe.

            We're not at war with Europe.

            We're being asset striped by billionaires

            Do try and keep up.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    We solved that ages ago.

    We get UK resident .eu domain owners to transfer ownership details to us and sign an agreement for representation. It means we are registered as owners, but properly documented that it's "on behalf of" - as domains can represent considerable value I think it's only right to do it properly. As a result, it's now an EU domain registered to an EU company, and it is under a properly documented reason why - we act on their behalf in one country.

    As we are located in an EU country, Brussels is not going to specifically act on this for the very simple reason that it would create problems with a lot of other EU based companies that generate revenue from UK resources, and especially politicians pay a lot of attention to preservation to the one resource that keeps them away from the need to hold down a proper job: tax income.

    We charge some money for the admin, but, to be frank, it just about offsets the admin costs, it's not a profit maker and it wasn't intended to. Sometimes you just have to stand up and poke the politicians in the eye - if there is something I absolutely loath it's petty (abuse of) bureaucracy. This is also why I post it here: if you're in an EU country, help your UK friends. It's not even hard, you just have to make sure it's legally too sound for a politician to mess with.

    So far, it appears Europe's diversity has generally withstood the onslaught of idiocy that has washed over two-party nations such as the US and the UK.

    Let's hope it stays that way.

    1. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

      Re: We solved that ages ago.

      There are easy work arounds to this one and thank you for pointing it out. This seems to be an argument about the EU being unfair. It should be how we can work within the law. But the UK seems to want to work outside the law. Just because? Answers on a postcard please. The best 5 get a blue Peter badge

    2. Paul Hampson 1

      Re: We solved that ages ago.

      Or just ask a friend with an Irish passport to be named as responsible for the domain and prove their citizenship.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Typo

    "But rather that revisit a decision" should probably read "But rather than revisit a decision".

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Typo

      Thank you, Captain Obvious.

  12. Noonoot

    Re: Yes, EU Minister

    "despite it being the lingua franca of the EU." - talking of which, what happened to Esperanto. I remember spending the two hours on the plane journey to some holiday location with parents learning this.

    1. Danny 2 Silver badge

      Re: Yes, EU Minister

      "what happened to Esperanto"

      1) The British Empire

      2) Hollywood

      [Tip: If you are ever in a French train station and you see a counter with the British or American flags, then avoid it, it is a trap. You are meant to think the person behind the counter can speak English but they are just trained in humiliating Anglophones. Instead go to a normal counter and speak bad French or English in a Hungarian or Finnish accent, then they treat you with sympathy]

      1. don't you hate it when you lose your account Bronze badge

        Re: Yes, EU Minister

        I reached the stage in France (and Scotland :) ) when it just got so much easier to tell people I was Irish. I got a totally different reaction. And rather than rage at the reality it was very educational to look at why this was so

        1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

          Re: Yes, EU Minister

          It is about the same when you try to speak German in Eastern Europe, Denmark or the western half of The Netherlands, no problem whatsoever after you have convinced them you are not German.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Yes, EU Minister

            Same in Belgium. I speak French & English, but not Flemish/Dutch. In Bruges I asked what I should use and was told English, never French.

            1. Not also known as SC

              Re: Yes, EU Minister

              My wife is Flemish and she has told me the same. In Flanders they rather you speak Dutch badly or English instead of French. (I don't speak French so that isn't a problem for me.) I think you have to bare in mind the fact that most Belgians (ignoring the German speakers as I don't actually know any) either speak French/ English or Dutch/English. Those who are fluent in all three languages are in a minority, so it may be that whoever you are trying to speak to in Bruges doesn't actually speak French (or not since they left school).

              1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

                Re: Yes, EU Minister

                Those who are fluent in all three languages are in a minority, so it may be that whoever you are trying to speak to in Bruges doesn't actually speak French (or not since they left school).

                There are more than you might suspect and most will accommodate foreigners as those aren't involved in that stupid language war (or so they think, I remember my history lessons and Brussels used to be completely Flemish).

              2. jake Silver badge

                Re: Yes, EU Minister

                You imagine most Belgians are naked? Interesting multicultural technique. How is it working for you?

                Here, I have bear in mind ... There is a largish black one and her near-yearling cubs foraging in one of my veggie gardens most dawns these days. Winter must be coming ...

                1. Not also known as SC

                  Re: Yes, EU Minister

                  @Jake,

                  Sadly I must admit that as my wife is Belgian I do spend an unhealthy amount of time thinking about naked Belgians. :-)

                  I spent ages trying to remember the correct spelling, bear or bare and then guessed. I will try to do better next time. Please find an upvote to your credit.

                  1. jake Silver badge
                    Pint

                    Re: Yes, EU Minister

                    Well, in that case all I can say is that rumo(u)r has it that you drink beer in Belgium, so this round's on me.

                2. Stoneshop Silver badge
                  Pint

                  Re: Yes, EU Minister

                  Belgians tend to often have beer in mind, but you can guess what then happens to their spelling.

                  1. jake Silver badge
                    Pint

                    Re: Yes, EU Minister

                    I'm pretty sure that all civilized nations (and a few that aren't) tend to often have beer in mind. It's 5 o'clock somewhere. Cheers :-)

                    1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

                      Re: Yes, EU Minister

                      Beer is just very immature whisk(e)y ;)

                      1. jake Silver badge

                        Re: Yes, EU Minister

                        You have obviously never made either ... but if you have attempted to (and thought you succeeded), I feel very, very sorry for your ex-friends.

                        1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

                          Re: Yes, EU Minister

                          Why should I make it, there are other people doing a better job for that. But both start with malted barley, yeast and water. The real difference is that whisk(e)y is double or (even better) triple distilled and left to ripen for a couple of years.

                          And yes, I skipped the various different flavouring ingredients like hops for beer and peat smoke for whisk(e)y as those aren't important to the process (but they are to the final taste).

            2. A.P. Veening Silver badge

              Re: Yes, EU Minister

              Same in Belgium. I speak French & English, but not Flemish/Dutch. In Bruges I asked what I should use and was told English, never French.

              Same with Dutch in Brussels, though I was surprised to be addressed in Dutch at the reception of a hotel in Brussels upon presenting my Dutch passport. Up to that point everything had been in English to avoid problems and to accommodate my Chinese wife (divorced by now), who spoke neither French nor Dutch.

              1. Not also known as SC

                Re: Yes, EU Minister

                If spoken to in English in Flanders or The Netherlands I always make a point of replying in (my not very good) Dutch. I think most native Dutch speakers are quite pleasantly surprised, especially considering the UK's reputation for 'foreign languages'.

                1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

                  Re: Yes, EU Minister

                  No, they aren't as Dutch isn't a language but a secret code foreigners aren't supposed to learn ;)

                  Depending on both your skills in Dutch and the importance of the communication I will either also continue in Dutch or switch to English, but most Dutch will switch to English anyway.

                  1. Danny 2 Silver badge

                    Re: Yes, EU Minister

                    Some folk really do assume Dutch is a secret code. It's a pretty obvious code at best.

                    My first trip to Coulport and I was with a dozen European peace protesters, none Dutch or Flemish but all of whom had lived in Ghent for at least a year.

                    We were all chatting away and then they switched to Flemish because they suspected I was a Scottish police infiltrator. I'd actually spent the last few years contracting in the Netherlands and Belgium, and had followed their 'secret' conversation fairly well. One of them had suggested leaving the camp so they could discuss their plans away from me, and the main guy said, "Waroom?"

                    I chipped in, "Waroom neit?", and all their cheeks blushed like a busted flush.

                    The main guy asked me in shock, "You speak Flemish?"

                    "Nee. Lekker ding. Moi ledden. Alstublieft."

                    There were two Finns there. Now Finnish *is* a code language to me, much more akin to bird song than human language.

  13. Digiwake

    IBM Professionals

    Easy fix - declare .eu to be geographical rather than political.

    Over the weekend I ordered a couple of bits of kit from .co.uk domains, one based in Poland and one in Shenzhen. Why is this not an issue as well?

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Government Advice and Actions

    "the UK government advising the owners of .eu domains to consider getting a different domain and to seek legal advice about whether to sue over the forcible removal of their existing .eu domain" However at the same time the government is happy to forcibly remove around 17 million remain voters (and an unknown number of people unable to vote) from the EU against their will.

    1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

      Re: Government Advice and Actions

      Welcome to democratic representation. The side with the biggest minority wins (obvioiusly as compared to the sum of losing side + didn't vote + inelligible to vote).

      In this case roughly half the voters are going to be pissed off no matter which side wins. Sensbile thing would have been to treat it as advisory, a democratically stated indicator that some things about the EU need to change. Instead, Cameron made it his hill to die on.

      1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

        Re: Government Advice and Actions

        Cameron made it his hill to die on.

        And he did, politically speaking.

      2. SundogUK Silver badge

        Re: Government Advice and Actions

        "Sensbile thing would have been to treat it as advisory, a democratically stated indicator that some things about the EU need to change." Which the EU would have ignored, as you well know.

        1. Not also known as SC

          Re: Government Advice and Actions

          But inside the EU the UK could negotiate with other EU governments to get changes made and direct the EU from a position of power. Ultimately the UK government has a veto (as do other member states). Once outside we have no say and if we want to trade with the EU will have to accept whatever rules they decide to enforce upon us. Better to be a rule maker than a rule follower.

          1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

            Re: Government Advice and Actions

            inside the EU the UK could negotiate with other EU governments to get changes made and direct the EU from a position of power.

            That might have worked in the Common Market, with someone like Thatcher in power, but in a 28-country EU with Blair or Cameron there was no chance.

            Ultimately the UK government has a veto (as do other member states).

            That's becoming less and less the case. With 28 countries, some tiny, the EU can't afford to have anyone with a veto. More and more of the decision-making is now on a majority basis, no veto permitted.

            1. Wellyboot Silver badge

              Re: Government Advice and Actions

              The EU majority votes have been qualified majority since 2014 with the largest six (by population) holding about two thirds, (Germany, France, UK, Italy, Spain, Poland). All of the other small countries are just along for the ride now, the redistribution of the UK vote will leave the other five with only a slightly lower %.

              The big exception is for international treaties which still requires unanimous agreement and hence the very long negotiations for any trade agreement.

              1. Stoneshop Silver badge
                Holmes

                Re: Government Advice and Actions

                The big exception is for international treaties which still requires unanimous agreement and hence the very long negotiations for any trade agreement.

                Which the UK will be subject to.

          2. SundogUK Silver badge

            Re: Government Advice and Actions

            "Ultimately the UK government has a veto." That's not actually been the case for most policy areas since 2014, when Qualified Majority Voting was introduced. We simply couldn't stop a huge swathe of measures the EU insisted on but were extremely unpopular in the UK.

            1. Not also known as SC

              Re: Government Advice and Actions

              "We simply couldn't stop a huge swathe of measures the EU insisted on but were extremely unpopular in the UK."

              Such as?

              1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

                Re: Government Advice and Actions

                AMEN to that.

                The really unpopular measures were strictly Whitehall but presented as Brussels. And some popular measures from Brussels were presented as purely Whitehall. This all with lots of help of some papers (note: not newspapers as they don't contain any real news nor anything resembling the truth).

        2. Commswonk Silver badge

          Re: Government Advice and Actions

          Which the EU would have ignored, as you well know.

          A point that needs to be made until the message finally gets home, however long that might take. I'd like to say I am surprised that (at the time of my writing this) it has attracted a downvote, but I'm not; nothing upsets diehard Remainers more than an Inconvenient Truth.

          Mind you there are also those who believe that remaining "in" and changing the EU from within would be the way to go - an idea that I would regard as laughably unlikely.

          Let the downvotes commentce...

      3. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: Government Advice and Actions

        Sensbile thing would have been to treat it as advisory, a democratically stated indicator that some things about the EU need to change.

        We've been saying that for 25 years, it's never made any difference, not will it ever. The EU isn't run by people who want to listen to the voice of the masses.

        Instead, Cameron made it his hill to die on.

        Well, he did come back from the EU, waving his letter about agreed concessions like Chamberlain, and called the promised referendum fully expecting people to agree that he had achieved significant changes. Since he actually achieved damn all he shouldn't have been surprised, and that fact that he was surprised shows just how out of touch he was.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Big Brexit

    The gristle and sewerage pie just keeps getting more and more unappetising

  16. Velv Silver badge
    Headmaster

    Question?

    Is .eu for people, businesses and organisations who have an affiliation with the "European Union" and its operation, or is .eu a geographical representation like .uk, .fr, .de, etc?

    If it's the former, then there are millions of ineligible .eu domains across the world used by organisations who have no direct connection the the European Union.

    If it's the latter the the United Kingdom will STILL BE IN EUROPE even if they are not members of the European Union. (I know there are some Leavers who still don't understand this, but Geography is Geography - about the only unambiguous statement you can make about Brexit means Brexit).

    1. Danny 2 Silver badge

      Re: Question?

      https://eurid.eu/en/news/doteu-goes-global/

      13 years after its launch back in 2006, the .eu domain name will take on its biggest change yet. As of 19 October 2019, internationally-based EU citizens will become eligible to register their very own .eu domain name.

      The top-level internet domain .eu is the eighth largest country code extension on the internet and, as of October 2019, we have more than 3.6 million registrations spread out across Europe. Striving to meet the needs of an ever-changing digital environment, the eligibility criteria for the registration of .eu domain name will be changing as of 19 October 2019.

      With around 12 million Europeans living in the US, Canada and Australia alone – not to mention the rest of the world – our hope is to provide these individuals, living far from their native lands, with a personal online platform through which they can share their lives with families and friends back home.

      Registering a .eu domain name for your blog, travel diary or personal business will be just like your European passport on the internet. It will show your identity while being reliable, trustworthy and secure. With a .eu domain, you will have your individual and consumer rights brought under the aegis of European standards and regulations.

      “We are excited to be able to extend the registration criteria to EU citizens around the world. The .eu domain is now closer to your ambitions, achievements and dreams. It is the bridge connecting you to your friends and family – even if you live outside the EU. It will always show your roots, your outlook, and your cultural values.” – Marc Van Wesemael, EURid`s CEO.

      Visit trust.eurid.eu for more.

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: Question?

        With a .eu domain, you will have your individual and consumer rights brought under the aegis of European standards and regulations.

        What complete bollocks. Since when did ANY internet domain name have that effect, anywhere?

        The .eu domain is now closer to your ambitions, achievements and dreams. It is the bridge connecting you to your friends and family – even if you live outside the EU. It will always show your roots, your outlook, and your cultural values.

        Someone's been at the Mission Statement generator again.

      2. heyrick Silver badge
        WTF?

        Re: Question?

        "while being reliable, trustworthy and secure"

        WHAT?

        It's your host that needs to be reliable, trustworthy, and secure.

        Your domain name... Is just that. It's a name. That's all.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Question?

          It's not even a name. It's a handle, or nickname at best, a stand-in for the IP address.

          Internet life before BIND was a lot nicer because you had to actually understand something about addressing to effectively use the system... idiots, and the so-called "nationalities" they brought with themselves, were self filtering and thus few and far between.

          The Eternal September actually started in June of 1986 ...

    2. Commswonk Silver badge

      Re: Question?

      Is .eu for people, businesses and organisations who have an affiliation with the "European Union" and its operation, or is .eu a geographical representation like .uk, .fr, .de, etc?

      Compare and contrast with .tv; is it for "people, businesses and organisations who have an affiliation with Tuvalu" or is it a nice little earner for Tuvalu from TV companies?

  17. rg287 Silver badge

    I can't for the life of me see the point in a .eu. If you're a business, does that mean you only and quite explicitly trade within the EU? Having branched into international business/exports from your mother country (whether .uk, .fr, .de, etc) you trade with Austria but not Switzerland? Or does it mean you have offices/production sites in multiple EU (and only EU) countries?

    Surely just use a .com or the appropriate TLD for your country of origin (or a gTLD for your industry if you're feeling avant garde).

    As for the European Institutions using .eu - pure vanity plates. If .org is good enough for the UN, then eu.org shouldn't be out of place (or indeed eu.int - .int being reserved precisely for those sorts of Intergovernmental Treaty Organisations - the African Union has "au.int", Council of Europe has "coe.int" - pretty much every other international organisation runs on .org or .int).

    All that being said, the convention is that domains aren't cancelled. There's still the old .soviet TLD floating around FFS and that entity doesn't even exist any more! How the EU are making such a pig's ear of it is baffling. Of all the nonsense that needs to be sorted out to facilitate Brexit this should be literally the least of their problems.

  18. codejunky Silver badge

    Ha

    If you ever want problems involve government. It doesnt matter if its at the UK level or the EU level, its still government doing what government is good at- adding complication.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    One explanation for the BrExit saga is provided here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism

    Boris' chief advisor, previously the mastermind behind the BrExit referendum campaign, is an adherent; its not clear whether he also believes in the "technological singularity".

    Ironically the one thing this approach is not is: conservative.

  20. Rich 2 Silver badge

    EU

    I've always thought of .eu being "Europe" rather than "economic union". Clearly, I am (apparently) wrong on this. Of course, if I was right, then the UK would still be "in Europe" even if not "in the econ. union". So if they just changed the definition, there would be no problem. At least not one that wasn't manufactured.

    1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

      Re: EU

      But EU stands for European Union. It did start out as an economic union for coals and steel and progressed via European Community to European Union.

  21. Milton Silver badge

    Ironic, eh?

    I've no time for Johnson's endless infantile lies about the EU, but one of the fairer criticisms of that body is "faceless bureaucracy"—so it seems ironic that it's handling the .eu domains issue with such absurd bureaucratic nonsense. It's not just that there's no need for such a draconian measure, it's the transparently stupid way they're managing it. If the bureaucrats actually have a good reason to "repatriate" a bunch of domains—one so compelling that they've never been able to convince anyone of it—why not do something manageably reasonable, like blocking long extensions now, while uncertainty reigns, and then blocking renewal if the UK does ever Brexit (which it plainly isn't going to: we've had three and half years, do the math*).

    To let a circus of time-serving pen-pushers make such a complete clusterfrak of a simple matter plays into the hands of the EU's critics ... entirely unnecessarily.

    * You doubt me? Fair enough. But I think that with the perspective of a bit of history, we'll look back on the period April 2016-to-early 2020 not as the time when Brexit got closer and closer: but as the time when, in fact, post-referendum, Brexit got further and further away. Think about it.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    .EU registration requirements

    The preconditions for having a .eu address are pretty clear and unambiguous. They are set out in the paragraph 4.2(b) EU directive 733/2002:

    (b) register domain names in the.eu TLD through any accredited.eu Registrar requested by any:

    (i) undertaking having its registered office, central administration or principal place of business within the Community, or

    (ii) organisation established within the Community without prejudice to the application of national law, or

    (iii) natural person resident within the Community;

    Once the UK is out of the EU, and provided that no agreement is reached - as looks almost certain at this point, there is no legal basis for a company or a person resident within the UK to continue holding a .eu domain name.

    I understand that this situation is not agreeable for many people and companies, and I do sympathize. This is just one more unanticipated consequence of hard brexit. The right way to go about it is to reach an agreement with the EU to have the law changed, not to dump on the EU bureacrats trying to enforce the EU law - which the UK did have a hand in writing as a member. Would anyone expect the UK bureacrats to ignore the UK law if the boot was on the other foot?

    1. heyrick Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: .EU registration requirements

      "Would anyone expect the UK bureacrats to ignore the UK law if the boot was on the other foot?"

      No, that's what Americans are for.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: .EU registration requirements

        Correct. Here in the States, we ignore UK law.

        HTH, HAND.

    2. rg287 Silver badge

      Re: .EU registration requirements

      Once the UK is out of the EU, and provided that no agreement is reached - as looks almost certain at this point, there is no legal basis for a company or a person resident within the UK to continue holding a .eu domain name.

      There's no legal basis for anyone to have a .su (Soviet Union) domain either, yet it remains in use even today.

      Restricting future registrations would be quite reasonable, forcibly repatriating domains goes against every precedent set in the world of DNS over the past 30 years.

  23. PacketPusher
    Alert

    What to do?

    Putting all of the politics aside, any business outside the remaining EU needs to get a stable internet domain whether it is .com, .co.uk or something else and tell your customers about it. Keep the .EU domain as long as you can with a message about the new domain so occasional users have a better chance to see the change.

    If Brexit doesn't happen, then you can quietly drop the new domain, if it does, then you will be as prepared as you can be.

  24. Danny 2 Silver badge

    The inevitable independent Scotland's ccTLD

    Just over a decade ago The Scotsman reported on proposals for Scottish Government websites to have the .sco suffix. Because we aren't an independent state we can't have a two letter ccTLD yet. I pointed out that just at that time there were no longer length limits and we should go dot Scot, which rhymes, rather than dot Sco which is associated with Unix. Which is what they went for.

    A no deal Brexit makes Scottish independence a near certainty according to polling, therefore we'll be needing a two letter ccTLD.

    .SC is already the Seychelles, so I'm going to propose .BJ for two reasons. As a tribute to Boris Johnson, and as a profitable sex related domain moneymaker equivalent to Tuvalu's .tv .

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: The inevitable independent Scotland's ccTLD

      .ab is perfect for Scotland (Alba). If they still taught Latin in school, it would be even more perfect. And it hasn't been claimed yet. (Downside: Aberdeen will lord it over the rest of all y'all.)

      1. Danny 2 Silver badge

        Re: The inevitable independent Scotland's ccTLD

        Dot ab is a good idea, it would make us top of the list, ahead even of the mighty Ascension Island. Although Alba could also be dot aa, to ensure we are still top of the list if Arizona ever secedes.

        It is telling that Ascension Island, population 806, has a IANA TLD and Scotland doesn't!

    2. Stoneshop Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: The inevitable independent Scotland's ccTLD

      rather than dot Sco which is associated with Unix.

      Negatively. Very, very negatively.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: The inevitable independent Scotland's ccTLD

        Not really. The actual SCO un*x was a neat hack back in the day, and fairly well regarded in the industry ... although most of us in the BSD world looked on the SCO offering as BSD's somewhat insane & slightly neurotic little brother.

        The SCO famed for losing lawsuits came later, much later.

        1. Stoneshop Silver badge

          Re: The inevitable independent Scotland's ccTLD

          Just over a decade ago (the time of the discussion on the Scotland TLD) the Old Neat SCO had been superseded by the New Litigious SCO for a good couple of years already, and at that point had had most of the points of its lawsuit against Novell dismissed (other lawsuits have been stayed, but occasionally have, even quite recently, displayed convulsions).

        2. Lars
          Coat

          Re: The inevitable independent Scotland's ccTLD

          @Jakeck

          I agree, SCO wasn't that bad at all. It wasn't locked to a specific vendor hardware like Aix, Solaris and HP-UX. Any PC hardware was OK, even a laptop. Some recompiling at times to add semaphores and such, quick and easy. Mostly cheap hardware didn't provide a fast system but still it was surprising to see how often customers who switched to a NT had to upgrade their hardware just to get what they got from their old SCO hardware.

  25. aldolo

    look for a friend in italy

    and ask to register a domain for you. free of charge of course.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: look for a friend in italy

      I have friends in Italy, France and Spain (it's a "we make wine" thing). Some of them are in Napa for a conference, so I just now called and asked a couple of them to register me a .eu "for future expansion". All indicated willingness, HOWEVER they all independently suggested I just get a .com "like everybody else".

  26. gnarlymarley Bronze badge

    abandon domain because EU says all of its citizens are unwanted

    If I were in the EU, I would just abandon the domain right now by use of http redirects and forwarding all email. This would give the search engines the time it needs for SEO as it can take a few months to update. Clearly the EU is throwing a tantrum and the government officals are the donkeys that will lose in this battle. I did a dotcom because I am not interested is being tied to a specific area. All my other domains are redirecting/forwarding as of 2006.

    1. Jasson Jac

      Re: abandon domain because EU says all of its citizens are unwanted

      Better safe than sorry. Domain names are not dearly-won, and keeping recent domains in your possession is that the least expensive cybersecurity contract you may ever purchase.

      Szathmari recommends fixing a catch-all email service that redirects all incoming email to a trustworthy administrator, somebody UN agency will review correspondence self-addressed former and current employees, and watchword reset emails for on-line services.....https://miklagard.dk/

  27. The Hamster

    In all fairness, Brexit is Brexit and it’s not the EU’s fault UK can’t decide how to do it. You get blue passports in exchange for losing your eu domaine, that’s a fair deal. Just do it already please.

    1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

      You get French Navy blue passports in exchange for losing your eu domaine, that’s a fair deal.

      FTFY ;)

      Just do it already please.

      AMEN! This farce is taking too long already.

  28. tygrus.au

    UK businesses in the EU become Zombies after Halloween

    So EU treats UK businesses that try to have offices and trade in the EU as the walking dead after Halloween. No web domain, no trade across UK-EU borders, no UK government approved agreements, no end in sight. They can't seem to make Brexit alive (finish the job), nor can they kill it off (stay in the EU). Brexit is holding up the whole supply chain in both directions as business on both sides can't rely on supply or pricing from each other. Trade conditions, tariffs and taxes affect price of A which also affects B that then affects price of C. They can't sign contracts because they don't know the price and they don't know if they will have the inputs or be able to move the final product across borders. It's a nightmare that many want to wake up from.

  29. Seppia-Register

    With reference to the following paragraph

    "All .eu domain owners would have to provide proof of EU citizenship – checked by the registry – before being allowed to register a .eu domain, it was decided."

    There might have been some misunderstanding.

    As of 19 Oct 2019, EU citizens will be able to register or keep a .eu domain name no matter where they are residing.

    EURid, the .eu registry manager, will not request any proof of citizenship to enable a EU citizen to register (or to keep) a .eu domain name. Checks might be conducted ex-post as it happens at present.

  30. WageSlave

    Just create a new .eux TLD and alias the non-resident .eu domains to that.

    If they can persuade ICANN to create a new TLD called .eux that would be an obvious home for the non-resident .eu domains.

    Give them a year to migrate, and then you have .us and .eux

    See what I did there? :-)

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