back to article UK plod could lose access to 79 million criminal alerts in event of a no-deal Brexit

Brit law enforcement bodies will no longer have access to 79 million alerts about potential criminals or persons of interest if the UK leaves the EU without a deal, a Parliamentary committee has heard. The UK currently has access to the second-generation Schengen Information System (SIS II), a Europewide IT system that …

  1. sabroni Silver badge
    Stop

    Project fear!

    Typical remoaners bleating on about the bad things when we've got a chance to create our own, best in the world alert system! Stop bashing Britain!!!!

    1. Warm Braw Silver badge

      Re: Project fear!

      Some of Britain's* best criminals are in Britain and we want Britain to know that and be proud!

      (* Substitute England for Britain at the appropriate historical moment)

      1. theblackhand Silver badge

        Re: Project fear!

        "Some of Britain's* best criminals are in Britain and we want Britain to know that and be proud!"

        Are you sure? I thought they were enjoying sunny Spain living off the proceeds of their crimes.

        Don't say there are even more lies?

        1. MJI Silver badge

          Re: Britains best criminals

          Like Cummings, Banks, Farage and co

    2. don't you hate it when you lose your account

      Best in the world?

      You mean like all those wonderful fully functional systems the UK has implemented. For those they had accessto to the data.

      We're all doomed

      Unless your a criminal

    3. DasWezel
      Joke

      Re: Project fear!

      I look forward to hearing how that particular government IT project works out.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Project fear!

      We already have a system to record details of the crims in the UK - PNC... if we build our own system how do you propose to get data from Europe???

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Project fear!

        *wooooooosh*

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      What this article tells us is that despite knowing for over 3 years that the UK has voted to leave the EU, persons responsible for our Police information systems have apparently not lifted a finger to make alternate arrangements. Moreover they have intentionally chosen to become more reliant on a system which they've known they would likely lose access to. This is entirely the fault of those persons, not doing their job in accordance with our national interest.

      It would appear we have legions of such people in positions of responsibility, determined to cause as much disruption and / or run up national debt by abusing their position to mismanage Brexit. If we get more of these manufactured "news" tales coming out, where such persons make public what bad managers they are for the sake of Brexit headlines, there's a stong case that they should be immediately relieved of their position by someone more competent.

      1. Youngone Silver badge

        Oh ha ha! Good one! "Mismanage Brexit"

        That sounds like you think there is a way to manage Brexit.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        No. The problem is that our neighbours have only been uploading info to the EU system, not the interpol one. There’s not much that “persons responsible” here can do about that, apart from politely asking, and pointing out to anyone who will listen the dangers of “no deal”.

        p.s. you're an idiot.

      3. don't you hate it when you lose your account

        Crash out?

        I suspect most of those people expected a negotiated exit. You know, amicable relationship, not what is happening. Got to love those public school boys who pushed this only to move their businesses out of the UK. Laugh, I weep.

    6. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: Project fear!

      Saw the word “remoaner” realised I must be reading the words of an infant, stopped reading. Skipped to next comment.

      1. sabroni Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Project fear!

        It's satire.

        The article was about not having access to reports from countries in Europe, the response was that our system will be better, completely missing the point that it's where they come from, not how the system works that's the problem. And now I've had to ruin it by explaining it.

        Thanks!

    7. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

      Re: Project fear!

      @sabroni: I can't tell if that is sarcasm or not!

      Edit: just got to the bit where you state your intention. Glad you haven't swapped sides :-)

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    One alternative could be to have an "Intuition Border Force" that can screen people as the come into the country and then anyone they don't like the look of doesn't get it. They could also improve the accuracy of the system by employing men with daughters and women with sons to confirm if they are good enough to come into the country.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      "They could also improve the accuracy of the system..."

      Why limit it to family? Why not do a Tinder style of system, existing UK passport holders get to swipe left/right: get more than x left swipes, no entry, get more than y right swipes then you can come in. Obviously, need some form of scaling so to avoid the 52:48% situation...

  3. mark l 2 Silver badge

    Do doubt leaving the EU without a deal will also mean that UK plod can no longer issue European arrest warrants for criminals that flee the UK and head over to Europe.

    And this will be brought on by a Tory PM who has a stance on being tough on crime

    1. Mephistro Silver badge

      What???

      Dis you expect coherence in this sad Brexit farce?

      How quaint!

      ;^)

    2. 's water music Silver badge

      Do doubt leaving the EU without a deal will also mean that UK plod can no longer issue European arrest warrants for criminals that flee the UK and head over to Europe.

      Shirley plod can just arrest them whilst the crims are waiting for their visa to enter an EU country or during the three months they will need to queue for ferry at Dover?

    3. Cederic Bronze badge

      Oh no! You mean we'll have to resort to the tried and tested methods used prior to the travesty that is the European Arrest Warrant? Thank fuck for that.

      1. sabroni Silver badge

        re: resort to the tried and tested methods used prior

        How would that work? Go on, you lot are always suggesting things are easy. With reference to the specific issues raised in the article, how would we deal with losing access to the European database?

        1. don't you hate it when you lose your account

          Re: re: resort to the tried and tested methods used prior

          But when you voted to leave Shirley you considerd all of these issues. Or are you a tad less intelligent than you think? No assumptions my side, just a question.

          1. don't you hate it when you lose your account

            An old post but saves time

            How I explain Brexit to South Africans

            Been working over here quite a while now. Most people are totally confused by Brexit and what’s going on back home, so this is how I explain the impasse.

            A bunch of kids have been playing football together for years. One day they meet up and Billy GreatBritain says he’s not happy with the rules and wants them changed. So the other 27 kids go off and have a long chat (except the Spanish kid who’s having a sleep after lunch). After much discussion (and a brief farting contest) they go back to Billy GreatBritain and say ‘No’. We’ve played by these rules for years and even stick to them when we play away against Johnny USA or any other of the international kids.

            Of course Billy GreatBritain is not happy with this and throws a hissy fit (imagine spoiled brat whose never been told to say please or thank you). After much foot stamping Billy GreatBritain declares ‘if you don’t do as I say, I’ll take my ball home’. So they wake up the Spanish kid and go for another chat. After reaching a consensus they tell Billy GreatBritain, ‘Fine take your ball home because we own the friging stadium and we have shit load of balls’.

            When they ask what a no deal Brexit would mean; I tell them Billy GreatBritain would have to stay home and play with his own balls

  4. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    So there was a system, but they used another

    I thought Interpol was important, but it seems that it's just the fifth wheel and has been treated that way by everyone.

    Who knows ? Maybe a no-deal Brexit might just be thing to make Interpol important. I think I might like that.

    1. Mephistro Silver badge

      Re: So there was a system, but they used another

      My opinion - and it's just an opinion, as I'm no expert on international LEOs - is that what killed Interpol's importance in the first place was certain country having a disproportionate amount of control over it.

      I Read many moons ago about several instances of wanted war criminals* and such being added to the Interpol's lists and immediately removed from them for not-too-clear reasons.

      * USA friendly ones, of course.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: So there was a system, but they used another

      Interpol is corrupt as fuck. Nobody has faith in them.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-48700498

  5. devTrail

    Red herring repeatings?

    Two articles with the same tone about Brexit in the span of 4 hours. All I have to do is copy an paste an already posted comment:

    Brexiters would see this article as the usual scaremongering, remainers would take the opposite view, but the real purpose is to hide the fact that Brexit is not going to happen. Boris Johnson has done the wrong thing at the wrong moment on purpose. Eventually we'll have another delay and the comedy has been carefully designed in order to keep the Brexiters trusting Johnson.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Red herring repeatings?

      I will admit I had wondered at the time if Theresa May was deliberately making a mess of Brexit so it all fell apart. She was a remainer before the referendum. I think she is bright enough to pull that pretense off for the time she was in office.

      I am really having trouble buying any theory that includes Boris Johnson having the intelligence, forward planning and discipline to orchestrate the fomenting of eurosceptcism through all the factually inaccurate stories he wrote in his press days, making enough gaffs to make himself look like an idiot, campaigning to leave and winning, only to then throw himself under the bus (with or without the famous £350m a week quote on the side) just when he has got his feet under the desk of the PM's job for some reason so ingenious that nobody seems to have worked it out.

      No. I think Boris really is a buffoon.

      1. Robert Carnegie Silver badge

        Re: Red herring repeatings?

        I always warn people that he's not as stupid as he seems. But I wouldn't say it's far off at the moment.

        I don't blame him or anyone for not having a plan to keep the border with Ireland open while the border with the EU is closed, because clearly that's impossible since Ireland is in the EU. I mean, do I need to show you on a map.

        I do blame them for pretending that this isn't a problem. I think that Brexit will proceed and relations with Ireland will break in a way that hasn.t been seen since Finn MacCool sobered up, and the British rump will be made to see the disadvantages of the situation... if a rump can see. As Dave Allen put it, "Are you reading that newspaper you're sitting on?"

  6. alain williams Silver badge

    Do not all countries lose by this ?

    If UK plods can no longer get to know about criminals of interest who are located in the EU, then EU plods will no longer get to know about crims who are located in the UK. So: surely everyone loses out -- except the crims; doing a 'job' and jumping across the channel will become the thing to do.

    Is this not called cutting off your nose to spite your face ?

    We may* be leaving the the EU, we are not leaving the planet. Cooperation will still be to mutual benefit.

    * 'may' might well end up 'will not' - who knows ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Do not all countries lose by this ?

      I don't think it's a case of "we won't let you see this anymore" - more that legal issues would have to be sorted out.

      I'm sure all sides would like all the world to have access to their wanted-crim list.

      1. Robert Carnegie Silver badge

        Re: Do not all countries lose by this ?

        Your "wanted criminals" include Russia's "holder of presidential licence to kill" (and vice versa - remember James Bond bodyguarding the Queen at the Olympic Games), and Turkey's "enemies of the state" include "men, women and children of minority ethnicity or dissenting interpretation of religion" as wee see it. For instance. That sort of thing makes true international exchange of information about these troublemakers a bit complicated.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Do not all countries lose by this ?

      The difference is, SIS2 was automated, PC in the UK puts the info on PNC, it gets sent up to SIS2 and out to Europe.

      Same the other way - PC in France for example enters details on their system, it goes via SIS2 and ends up on PNC. IF a PC in the UK then stops someone/finds an item and does a PNC check on them/vehicle/document, it flags up that there is an alert from another European country on that item. The info is available to the officer in minutes if not seconds.

      The manual system rely's on someone sending the request from person to person, (assuming someone is in the office to action the request in the uk, then the equivalent office in Europe), doing the look up, and then returning results (again assuming someone actions in both offices). - the information is available in hours or days...

      Taking into account if this, take the following example. A vehicle is stopped in the UK for whatever reason - the officer who stopped the vehicle does a PNC check. Using SIS2, if that vehicle is wanted in any European country and has been entered onto the system, that officer will know as he/she is going to talk to the driver.

      Using the paper method, its unlikely the vehicle will even get checked against the European system, unless there was a specific need to do so. Even if there was, it would be hours or days before the officer got the results, by which time the driver of that vehicle will be long gone - certainly not still waiting on the side of the road! Same applies to people, a range of paper documents (money, birth certificates, passports, id cards, plant machinery and a lot more!)

    3. heyrick Silver badge

      Re: Do not all countries lose by this ?

      "we are not leaving the planet"

      No... That comes later.

    4. Teiwaz Silver badge

      Re: Do not all countries lose by this ?

      We may* be leaving the the EU, we are not leaving the planet. Cooperation will still be to mutual benefit.

      They say "No man is an island" but the fact that Great Britain is, seems to be the problem.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    On the one hand I applaud the fortress Britain idea to keep out Johnny foreigner criminals but on the other it interferes with my supply of illegal drugs.

    You just can't win.

  8. codejunky Silver badge

    Hmm

    Wasnt the previous complaint that the UK had better intelligence that the EU really didnt want to lose? Which brings the usual question of why these muppets would struggle to cooperate in the name of mutual benefits and if they do find it difficult only prove that we should leave.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Hmm

      Silly billy.

      This is a legal issue, instigated by the UK, not a "you can't have access ner-ner" moronic comment that is more the mindset of leavers.

      I wish you could leave in a huff without dragging the sane down with you.

      By the way, you've never actually posted why you think brexit would be good.. - well, anything that can be debated. So far it's been wishy washy wishful thinking, or incorrect conclusions based on your misunderstanding, or your falling for the lies.

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Hmm

        @AC

        "This is a legal issue, instigated by the UK, not a "you can't have access ner-ner" moronic comment that is more the mindset of leavers."

        So morons decide they wont share data in return for sharing data because *insert piss poor reason*. Well who makes these legal situations? Oh yeah the morons making an issue of it. Well its solved then isnt it?

        "I wish you could leave in a huff without dragging the sane down with you."

        Leavers have had that wish for some time. And we are still stuck in the mad house even after the release date!

        "By the way, you've never actually posted why you think brexit would be good.. - well, anything that can be debated. So far it's been wishy washy wishful thinking, or incorrect conclusions based on your misunderstanding, or your falling for the lies."

        I have often offered to discuss on- economy, sovereignty, trade, borders and few have taken me up on it. Not my fault if you cant debate it or dont understand.

        1. Mephistro Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Hmm

          "So morons decide they wont share data in return for sharing data because *insert piss poor reason*. Well who makes these legal situations? Oh yeah the morons making an issue of it. Well its solved then isnt it?"

          Well, morons started this Brexit shit without giving any thought to its consequences, so...

          Regarding the "piss poor reason", you have several to choose:

          - Lack of a common legal framework (after Brexit) regarding the sharing of police data with the rest of the UK.

          - Lack of a treaty regarding what UK's police can and can't do with the data obtained from SIS II and vice versa.

          - Privacy implications -as the SIS2 also includes some private data from honest citizens-, rules for disclosure, etc.

          As the OP said, and you conveniently ignored, it's not a mater of "you can't have access ner-ner" but of the lack of a treaty regulating access to said data. And said treaty is complicated and will need time to negotiate, a time that the UK hasn't got due to that moronic exit date that BoJo pulled from his arse.

          1. Shades

            Re: Hmm

            Oh look, no response... must not have a pre-programmed response to that one. Quelle surprise!

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Hmm

            But there's no reason they couldn't quite rapidly establish a treaty to share data, possibly by using as a blueprint one that they probably already have with existing non EU states like Switzerland.

            It doesn't have to be particularly complicated but there are many interests with a considerable interest in making it so. If negotiated using existing agreements and with goodwill, something could almost certainly be thrashed out in a couple of weeks - which in bureaucratese time more likely means 3 years with plenty of junkets thrown in.

            And just to emphasize your special form of moronism, Oct 31 isn't a date Johnston selected, it is the date the Clause 50 exit sets unless renegotiated.

            1. Mephistro Silver badge
              Facepalm

              Re: Hmm

              "And just to emphasize your special form of moronism, Oct 31 isn't a date Johnston selected, it is the date the Clause 50 exit sets unless renegotiated."

              You're right, of course, except for the fact that the original deadline had been already extended at the bequest of the UK and that the EU had offered to extend it again, if the UK made a new request.

              Bloody Stupid Johnson chose not to request a new extension, causing the issue discussed in the article and many other similar ones.

              So what BJS really pulled from his arse was the decision of not asking for a new deadline, something that every fecking body was taking for granted just three months ago.

              But you have done well in pointing this out, codejunky, as precission is important! ;^)

              "But there's no reason they couldn't quite rapidly establish a treaty to share data, possibly by using as a blueprint one that they probably already have with existing non EU states like Switzerland."

              That would be possible only if Switzerland and the UK were in the same circumstances, e.g. both belonged to the European Free Trade Area and the Schengen area, two agreements that the UK has already rejected to join, FFS!

              Pretending to ignore all these facts shows you as either a liar or a true moron. Or both.

              You'll have to try harder next time.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Hmm

                @Mephistro

                FYI when I post you will see codejunky as the name. AC's dont speak for me but also dont need bashing as me.

                1. Mephistro Silver badge

                  Re: Hmm

                  OOPS!

                  8^)

          3. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Hmm

            @Mephistro

            "Well, morons started this Brexit shit without giving any thought to its consequences, so..."

            Actually no. This being one thing that irritated leave voters, that so far we have yet to see this be a leave run event. Instead we had Cameron and then May (remainers) and now Boris (position determined by getting votes).

            "- Lack of a common legal framework (after Brexit) regarding the sharing of police data with the rest of the UK."

            So if this really matters they can resolve this quickly. Hence morons if they cant.

            "- Lack of a treaty regarding what UK's police can and can't do with the data obtained from SIS II and vice versa."

            See above

            "- Privacy implications -as the SIS2 also includes some private data from honest citizens-, rules for disclosure, etc."

            Hey look same problem.

            So if this really matters then they can resolve this fairly easy as the problem is people making it a problem. Its purely a political issue.

            "a time that the UK hasn't got due to that moronic exit date that BoJo pulled from his arse."

            Boris didnt. Art50 was submitted by May after Cameron bottled it and Boris has only just took over toward the end of the extension of the deadline.

            1. Mephistro Silver badge

              Re: Hmm

              "So if this really matters they can resolve this quickly. Hence morons if they cant."

              To back your assertion, you could name a few international trade treaties* that have been negotiated and signed in less than a year. Thank you in advance.

              Regarding your next two points, "see above".

              "So if this really matters then they can resolve this fairly easy as the problem is people making it a problem. Its purely a political issue."

              No, they can't and no, it's not. See my point above and add that for more than two years the UK and the EU have been negotiating an exit treaty and reached an agreement that afterwards was repeatedly rejected by the UK Parliament. The cost of said negotiation -and I don't mean just the cost of paying the negotiators- has been stratospheric and includes things like economic uncertainty and coin devaluation.

              The main reason for the UK rejecting the agreement is the "Backstop" that is the only logical solution to the NI issue. BoJo has repeatedly stated that the EU should come up with a solution to said problem, but he hasn't proposed a solution himself, because there isn't another solution. He could have requested also a working Perpetual Motion machine. This is just political posturing designed to pander to the dumbest of his supporters.

              The EU can't allow an open border with countries that aren't in the EFTA, as this would effectively mean free access to the EFTA for any country the UK has commercial agreements with, something that would cause a huge economic harm to EFTA members.

              "Art50 was submitted by May after Cameron bottled it and Boris has only..."

              As I already pointed out to the AC above, a few months ago everybody was counting on a new extension and the EU was willing to give it. BJ shot himself in both feet by rejecting such extension, but wants to blame everybody else for his blunders. Quelle surprise!

              Someone should explain to BJ that you shouldn't bluff when every other player in the table knows exactly what cards you've got.

              * Note: excluding those treaties "negotiated" between an overwhelming superpower and its satellite states, e.g. the USSR and the rest of countries behind the Iron Wall, or the UK and countries of the Commonwealth more than a century ago. For some reason said treaties require little negotiation, if any. ;^)

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Hmm

                @Mephistro

                "To back your assertion, you could name a few international trade treaties* that have been negotiated and signed in less than a year. Thank you in advance."

                Kinda points out the failure of remain governments to plan for leave. 2 years + extension and refusing to do any brexit planning before the referendum result. But since we already have compliance it really wont be hard for them to fix it even if its a temporary agreement while moving to something more solid.

                "The main reason for the UK rejecting the agreement is the "Backstop" that is the only logical solution to the NI issue."

                No it isnt and thats the problem. It isnt the only logical solution, but its a poor excuse to complain its too hard and give up.

                "BJ shot himself in both feet by rejecting such extension"

                It isnt failure to actually do the damn job he is there for. There is a result of leave, we leave. Its not hard, its not complicated, we dont need permission, we leave. The lack of progress and even getting extensions to drag this on is the problem. The constant attempts to remain and avoid leave at all costs is the problem. That has caused all the damage so far.

                "Someone should explain to BJ that you shouldn't bluff when every other player in the table knows exactly what cards you've got."

                BJ is only bluffing as far as parliament can stop him. Otherwise he is actually negotiating as should have been done at the beginning- that is the agreed deadline, that is it.

                1. Mephistro Silver badge

                  Sigh...(Re: Hmm)

                  "Kinda points out the failure of remain governments to plan for leave..."

                  May I remind you that the negotiations were finished but the UK parliament rejected the agreement three times? Or are you going to tell us that it was a poor agreement? The experts the brexiteers despise so deeply had been warning that this was going to happen since before the referendum. Surprise! It was exactly what happened!

                  And I'm still waiting for that list of trade treaties negotiated in less than a year.

                  "No it isnt and thats the problem. It isnt the only logical solution, but its a poor excuse to complain its too hard and give up."

                  If you're so sure it isn't the only logical solution, I'm sure you'll be glad to enumerate the other possible solutions, as BJ should have done. As I said before, take your time. ;^)

                  "It isnt failure to actually do the damn job he is there for"

                  And here I was thinking that the work he is supposed to do as PM is to guide his country and prevent any harm coming to it, e.g. having its economy totally gutted by the consequences of a long, long series of extremely stupid political decisions caused by internal power struggles. How naive of me!

                  "Kinda points out the failure of remain governments to plan for leave"

                  Lol. So everything that goes wrong with this charade is the remainer side's fault? And May's government has been suddenly classified as a remainer government? For not being able to perform an impossible task? Nice reasoning, indeed!

                  Seriously, codejunky, I doubt you yourself believe what you wrote in your comment.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Sigh...(Hmm)

                    @Mephistro

                    "May I remind you that the negotiations were finished but the UK parliament rejected the agreement three times?"

                    So you think we should take any bad agreement thrust in our face? Isnt that the argument against trade with the US? Wet lettuce remainers crying we will be forced to a bad deal with the US, but for the EU lets just bend over. Of course it was rejected. And 3 times, that should tell you something.

                    "The experts the brexiteers despise so deeply had been warning that this was going to happen since before the referendum. Surprise! It was exactly what happened!"

                    Remainers predicted bad negotiation. Then remainers negotiated badly. Remainers say I told you so. I am shocked I tell you!

                    "And I'm still waiting for that list of trade treaties negotiated in less than a year."

                    Your waiting less than a year or more? You do know we are already compatible and since the EU is good at temporary arrangements this isnt drawing a new thing from scratch.

                    "If you're so sure it isn't the only logical solution, I'm sure you'll be glad to enumerate the other possible solutions"

                    There is no hard border. it is that simple because its always been that way unless they intend to build a wall across Ireland. So a simple agreement on both sides to allow Ireland more freedom in its border trade and that would do it.

                    "And here I was thinking that the work he is supposed to do as PM is to guide his country and prevent any harm coming to it"

                    Prevent harm? When did you believe that? We have been sold to the EU. Taken into wars. Hell Camerons gov threatened the population because we were going to vote in a way they didnt like!

                    "So everything that goes wrong with this charade is the remainer side's fault?"

                    Awww didums. Dont stand there with chocolate all over their mouths saying 'I didnt eat the cake'. The amusement here is you probably think remain is innocent or something. Yes its their fault. They have been in charge screwing this up and we are still in the EU after voting to leave and passing the deadline. Again they want to extend it, and achieve nothing. Leave is a unilateral decision we can absolutely make and follow through, so any failure to do so yes is remain.

                    "And May's government has been suddenly classified as a remainer government?"

                    No. Not at all suddenly. She was a remainer who started with some promise (putting brexiters in charge of negotiation) then she stepped in, came up with a remain deal and it was considered worse than remain or leave.

                    "For not being able to perform an impossible task?"

                    This is the problem. If you have someone who looks at a problem and they think its impossible, it probably will be to them. But this is a unilateral decision we can make absolutely and with nothing to stop us. So this is an incredibly possible task which had already been planned and costed by Farage's UKIP and it really was that simple. The facts have stood by that. So I understand why people who dont want to do it keep making it difficult for themselves and maybe see it as impossible, but thats mostly because they want to remain.

                    1. Mephistro Silver badge

                      Re: Sigh...(Hmm)

                      "So you think we should take any bad agreement thrust in our face?"

                      That bad agreement was a gazillion times better than no agreement, and experts in international trade -not just remainers- predicted exactly this. The agreement itself wasn't bad and its biggest issue for your MPs was the Irish Backstop, due to political reasons and not economic ones.

                      "Then remainers negotiated badly. "

                      Calling May's government remainers is so wrong that makes me doubt your sanity. Did you remember to take your frog pills?

                      "There is no hard border. it is that simple because its always been that way unless they intend to build a wall across Ireland. So a simple agreement on both sides to allow Ireland more freedom in its border trade and that would do it."

                      LOL. The most disingenuous statement I've read in a long, long time. By that definition there are no hard borders anywhere, except between North Korea and South Korea. A hard border is a border where countries in both sides do their best to control all people and goods crossing it and walls have nothing to do with it. Allowing NI "more freedom in its border trade" would effectively allow goods passing from the UK to the EFTA countries. If you expect something like this to be allowed by the EU authorities you are delusional.

                      Another instance of Brexiters wanting to eat the cake and keep it, Sigh...

                      "So this is an incredibly possible task which had already been planned and costed by Farage's UKIP and it really was that simple. The facts have stood by that."

                      God! So many lies in two sentences!

                      "Your waiting less than a year or more?"

                      Hmm... you don't seem able to properly understand the sentence in the context of this discussion. Either that or you are "cunningly"* evading my request. Clever! **

                      You do know we are already compatible and since the EU is good at temporary arrangements this isnt drawing a new thing from scratch.

                      We won't be compatible after Brexit and it's definitely drawing a new thing from scratch, as this is the first time article 50 has been invoked.

                      *Note: Comedic quotes.

                      **Note: Not. 8^)

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Sigh...(Hmm)

                        @Mephistro

                        "That bad agreement was a gazillion times better than no agreement"

                        In your opinion. Rejected 3 times and not desirable to either remain or leave. It is becoming more desirable to remain as it looks like we might leave but thats because remain are clinging on to anything to stop brexit.

                        "Calling May's government remainers is so wrong that makes me doubt your sanity. Did you remember to take your frog pills?"

                        Thereby showing yourself to be wrong. Unwilling to leave with no deal, unwilling to allow negotiations on the basis of leaving without a deal, extending the negotiation period beyond the deadline and campaigning as a remainer during the referendum.

                        "By that definition there are no hard borders anywhere"

                        Except where geographically there are borders. Which typically caused the borders to fall where they are. Even when trying to implement a border in Ireland it was extremely porous.

                        "We won't be compatible after Brexit and it's definitely drawing a new thing from scratch, as this is the first time article 50 has been invoked."

                        That is the amusing problem. We are compatible. Even EU laws are being kept thanks to May so we are compatible. The deadline passes and that doesnt suddenly change, which is why its not actually that hard.

                2. Roland6 Silver badge

                  Re: Hmm

                  Kinda points out the failure of remain governments to plan for leave. 2 years + extension and refusing to do any brexit planning before the referendum result.

                  Love the logic...

                  Can you tell me what Boris's plans are for remain...

                  It might have escaped your attention that prior to May, UK government policy was for remain. Cameron's failure was not to have a plan if he didn't get the result he wanted. Likewise by your logic Boris's failure will be to not have a plan for an outcome that goes against what he wants...

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Hmm

                    @Roland6

                    "Likewise by your logic Boris's failure will be to not have a plan for an outcome that goes against what he wants..."

                    It will be interesting to see what Boris does because he really is just in it for the votes. He doesnt have much time left for any form of negotiating which could be a problem but if he can get that hard brexit lined up then there is some hope even if not much time. I hate having to rely on the vote chaser to do this but he seems to at least be trying to get it done instead of May's approach.

                    1. Roland6 Silver badge

                      Re: Hmm

                      but he seems to at least be trying to get it done instead of May's approach.

                      Surprised you're saying this, as all the feedback is that he is talking-the-talk, but totally failing to walk-the-walk.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Hmm

                        @Roland6

                        "Surprised you're saying this, as all the feedback is that he is talking-the-talk, but totally failing to walk-the-walk."

                        If I am honest I do worry about this. But then May was talking the talk but failing miserably too. I dont have any faith in them getting the job done, I can only hope he does.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Hmm

              > "Actually no. This being one thing that irritated leave voters, that so far we have yet to see this be a leave run event. Instead we had Cameron and then May (remainers) and now Boris (position determined by getting votes)."

              May a remainer?? She did all she could to sort out leave - you guys will blame anything for the lack of unicorns.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Hmm

                @AC

                "May a remainer?? She did all she could to sort out leave - you guys will blame anything for the lack of unicorns."

                I will believe its all she could do. But since she campaigned for remain it is more puzzling that you dont understand she was for remain.

                1. This post has been deleted by its author

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Hmm

                  She claimed to be a remainer when working for remainer Cameron. Indeed, she campaigned for it - I agree with you there.

                  However, when she became the boss, her true leaver opinion clearly shone through - it was obvious from some of the vitriol in her speeches.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Hmm

                    @AC

                    "However, when she became the boss, her true leaver opinion clearly shone through - it was obvious from some of the vitriol in her speeches."

                    That is probably where we will have to disagree. She did make everyone laugh when she said brexit means brexit but it became a bad joke when we were still remaining after the leave date. Or that we suddenly cant leave without a deal even though it was determined we could vote to leave the EU. She tried her naff deal 3 times and ruled out brexit without a deal.

                    The bit that really bugged me was when she took over from David Davis who had held his ground and not caved to demands and she started negotiating for some sort of deal.

      2. slartybartfast

        Re: Hmm

        Never ask a Brexiter why leaving is a good idea. Not one (as far as I can tell) has volunteered a sane and coherent answer to that question. We are wasting our time bothering to ask.

        1. Cederic Bronze badge

          Re: Hmm

          I have, many times. Don't blame me if you weren't listening. Ever.

          It's ok, I'm used to it. At least you're not telling me why I voted to leave, which, trust me, puts you way ahead of most remain voters.

          1. Kevin Fairhurst

            Re: Hmm

            I have never seen anyone being told why they voted leave. What I have seen is false equivalence from leave voters; “I want a hard Brexit, I voted leave, 17million others voted leave, we all want a hard Brexit”

            What people rightly point out is that you cannot make that leap across the entire dataset using a sample size of 1. The ballot did not differentiate between the various scenarios in which we might leave, therefore you cannot know what leave voters (as a whole) were voting for. This is usually met with the response you gave and head meets desk...

            1. Richard 12 Silver badge

              Re: Hmm

              It is reasonable to assume that most people who voted Brexit wanted the things that the Leave campaign promised.

              Lots of money, easiest trade deals in history, blue passports etc.

              All of which are the things thrown away by leaving. "No Deal" then puts those things in a blender to make sure nobody can have them for as long as possible.

              Brexit is really about tax avoidance and market manipulation by a few very rich people, who have already made many millions from the mess and stand to make billions more. It has been good for them, bad for everyone else.

            2. Cederic Bronze badge

              Re: Hmm

              And yet.. someone else has replied to you trying to speak on behalf of all Leave voters.

              Me, I talk to people. I know there are a range of reasons for people voting to leave or to remain. I know that some of those people are unpleasant, and that the community known as 'fucking idiots' voted in both directions.

              Have you tried this? Just that you seem to think that my view is entirely irrelevant; are you a Member of Parliament?

            3. not.known@this.address Bronze badge

              Re: Hmm

              Kevin, the media is full of people saying that all Leave voters only voted that way because we are stupid, ignorant, illiterate, racist, unwashed scum who cannot see the wisdom being handed out by the political and media "elites" who, obviously, know so much more about everything from their ivory towers. Even calling it "Brexit" is intended to suggest we cannot cope with long words or complex ideas.

              It's impossible to mention any serious argument against staying in the EU without the nearest Remain voter shouting these insults regardless of what argument is offered.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Hmm

                > It's impossible to mention any serious argument against staying in the EU without the nearest Remain voter shouting these insults regardless of what argument is offered.

                You mean things like "Project Fear!" and "you lost. get over it"?

                If I argued that we should all personally be taxed a couple of grand to finance a manned space exploration to the sun, which I justified with fantastical bollocks, and even worse, it started to look like it was going to happen, you'd be "throwing insults" too.

                Come up with a serious argument, based on facts, and we'll be all ears. There's nothing worse than trying to have a discussion with someone whose opinions are based of falicies, and who refuses to believe the truth.

                1. MJI Silver badge

                  Re: Hmm

                  Got a few leave voters in the office. They have been asked.

                  Reasons

                  1) Hated David Cameron.

                  2) No point being in EU unless we take Euro.

                  3) EU industry regulations too lax.

                  Remainers

                  Biggest is trade by a LONG way, followed by banking, then ability to work anywhere in EU, that is for starters.

                  It is interesting that the remain voters have multiple reasons, the leave voters just one each.

                  If I say the words "Good Friday Agreement" I get silence.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Hmm

                    @MJI

                    "Got a few leave voters in the office. They have been asked."

                    Congrats. That might say more about the quality of the people in your office or how/what they were asked. I can believe you had those kinds of conversations because for each intelligent conversation I have with a remainer I get a lot of fluff between the ears conversations. Sometimes amusement like unity and cheap holidays sometimes frothing they dont like the government, doom, 4 horsemen but no reasons for it happening.

                    1. MJI Silver badge

                      Re: Hmm

                      There are many reasons I found to remain, my top was single market. But when i investigated reasons to leave apart from CAP and CFP there were no truthful reasons.

                      The Turkey argument I found was a lie because of a few Turkish laws were incompatible with EU membership.

                      The Lies on a bus were debunked straight away.

                      But recently I found the real leave reasons were by high finance and included.

                      1) Betting against UK by hedge funds (Leadsom, Banks, Cummings).

                      2) The risk to off shore accounts from the EU (same bunch).

                      I would no be surprised to see Farage on that list.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Hmm

                        @MJI

                        "There are many reasons I found to remain, my top was single market."

                        I dont doubt you found reasons otherwise you would be an idiot to vote remain. And as I said I can believe you had such conversations with some brexiters which left you a little underwhelmed by their reasoning. I was just pointing out its the same on the leave side. The similarity of problem isnt really shocking since the EU membership debate is made up across parties and education levels.

                        "The Turkey argument I found was a lie because of a few Turkish laws were incompatible with EU membership."

                        To be fair this was the time that even in the EU they seemed worried of Turkey's influence over them. An interesting fact that the EU was being politically slapped around by a country. Of course some people decided to view it in a different light (you might have noticed my pet troll appears occasionally because of his interpretation of my comments).

                        "The Lies on a bus were debunked straight away."

                        Yup. So just like the remain lies were of limited influence. Even Osborne directly threatening the population to vote remain had limited influence and that is surely more significant than just lying.

                        "But recently I found the real leave reasons were by high finance and included."

                        Not a shock. But then Mogg get it for following the law, not moving to Ireland but moving a fund over there because the law requires it. And considering the fall in the pound is uncertainty and this has been extended it isnt surprising for people to make money off the ongoing PITA which should have been resolved at the start of the year

  9. Bob Dunlop
    WTF?

    Stat's ?

    79 million alerts worth international attentsion in a database covering a population of 750 million.

    So one in ten Europeans are international criminals ?

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge
      Pirate

      Re: Stat's ?

      Most international criminals commit more than one crime.

      And usually it's not known which crimes were committed by the same criminal until somebody has had a chat with them. Or even then, to be fair.

  10. jake Silver badge

    79 million alerts about potential criminals or persons of interest?

    And here I thought the UK only had a population of around 67.5 million ... The bad guys must include all the tourists for the year, too. Must suck that all y'all (including guests) are criminals, or potential criminals, in the eyes of the law. Reminds me of a certain eastern bloc state in the 1950s-1980s ... Are mothers turning in their children for thoughts against the state yet?

    More to the point, what are you going to do about it? Or does the traditional British stiff upper lip come into play, and you're all hoping it'll go away after you have a nice cup of tea?

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    1. John G Imrie
      Big Brother

      Are mothers turning in their children for thoughts against the state yet

      That will be next week. We've only got as far as Party Purges this week.

      1. Teiwaz Silver badge

        Re: Are mothers turning in their children for thoughts against the state yet

        Less likely to be the other way round as has happened before

        All we have this time round is the Instagram Youth - less marching to band music

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 79 million alerts about potential criminals or persons of interest?

      > Must suck that all y'all (including guests) are criminals, or potential criminals, in the eyes of the law.

      Yeah, like daring to cross a road without being at a dedicated crossing, in many states, having the cheek to store rainwater that falls on your property, or dare boycott or protest the government of Israel, or have an alcoholic drink at age 18, or indeed, have an alcoholic drink at any age in a public space...

      Even worse, the "certain eastern bloc state in the 1950s-1990s" type of law that makes it illegal for us to go out without ID - balanced by the fact it's illegal to join the communist party if we so desire.

      Yep, sucks to live in a place like that. Still, at least we can forget all that by having a nice glass of orange juice, complete with a few maggots, whilst we eat our chlorienated chickens before strolling into walmart with our guns!

  11. Flywheel Silver badge

    Maybe that'll give plod time to concentrate on nicking a few more crims, and as a bonus, maybe getting them into court/banged up as well!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      You mean *less* time

      Plod loses access to the automated system.

      What makes you think they won't respond to that by getting coppers to do more manual data entry for the manual system instead of anything else?

      Aside from that, stopping "criminals" entering the country at the border requires some information about who the suspects are. Which we won't have.

      How large an increase in mortality crime rate is an acceptable price to pay for Brexit?

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Poo sammich

    Now with extra cat sick

    Brexit

  13. This post has been deleted by its author

  14. not.known@this.address Bronze badge

    Cut the bullsh^H^H^H rhetoric.

    What they are really saying is that the European Parliament is happy to jeopardise the safety of everyone in the UK just because we dared to disagree with them. And, given how easy it is to get in and out of mainland Europe, that does not bode well for their safety either.

    Sharing information like this should not be used as a bargaining chip in petty power squabbles. This sort of fuckwittery WILL cost people's lives and anyone who considers it a legitimate bargaining tool should be treated as equally culpable when something bad happens.

    1. John Mangan

      Re: Cut the bullsh^H^H^H rhetoric.

      Stop blaming the EU for the British government brandishing no deal as a good thing.

      No deal means, well, 'no deal'. So anything you want to continue to work needs to be agreed - a deal if you will - which the UK government doesn't want, thinks is a million to one shot, but probably will happen so be ready, you know, just in case . . . .

  15. martinusher Silver badge

    79 meelllionn!!!

    So something over 10% of Europe's population are 'persons of criminal interest'. Since a bunch of the 747 million total are too young or old to qualify as active criminals it suggests that 'persons of interest' are either very common or just thinking the wrong thoughts.

    I'm not a fan of Brexit but this is ridiculous. Quite apart from sharing information about criminals between countries, especially neighbouring countries, is just plain common sense. The only thing Brexit will do is prevent the automatic arrest of someone in the UK for a neglected parking ticket from Ruritania, I'd guess not such a bad thing.

    (Incidentally, Europe has a tradition of Gendarmaries. Look 'em up -- they're police like but not police in the general sense, they're more interested in civil unrest, dissidence and general political stuff. They're handy, for example a few years ago we noticed the cops policing strike demonstrations in Athens were Bulgarians (obviously the local lot weren't sufficiently reliable). The UK doesn't seem to subscribe to this model although I suspect that elements of the Met act as Gendarmerie because they pop out the woodwork when there's demonstrations about, kettle for a bit, bash a few heads and then just disappear into the woodwork again leaving the local PC Plod to carry the can for their behaviour.)

  16. DRue2514

    A bit more detail on the system here. Not all EU countries are members and some non EU but Schengen ones are. In the future there will be quite a lot stored on it, including biometrics.

    https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen-information-system_en

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