back to article Science and engineering hit worst as Euroboffins do a little Brexit of their own from British universities

Newly analysed recruitment figures from British Russell Group universities show a slowing of recruitment of European academics and increasing departures. The number of EU academics in all disciplines working in the UK is still growing, but much more slowly than it was. In 2017/2018 there was a 4 per cent increase, compared to …

  1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    Well, you're leaving

    And you do have a thing against all those bloody immigrants, right ?

    Well they're leaving too. You should be happy.

    Ah, but you hadn't thought of that ? Well, looks like we're going to spend quite some time discovering all the things you hadn't thought of, as well as their consequences.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: Well, you're leaving

      the situation should be simple to deal with - just 'grandfather in' any EU citizen who's already in the UK and working at Brexit time as 'legal immigrants with work visas'. shouldn't be too hard at that point.

      (seriously making this all harder than it needs to be)

      As for academics, well, my opinion is sometimes VERY low, for often in the REAL industrial world, those who "can't", teach... [not always, but seems too frequent]. I've replaced academics before [with my University Of Mars "degree"] and had to deal with them mismanaging projects to the point of killing it off, because THEY are SMART and NOBODY ELSE is. That kinda thing.

      But yeah you still need university profs, and so there's THAT. (Me to U. Prof: are you good at being a professor at a university? OK, do THAT then. Let ME do THIS...)

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: Well, you're leaving

        the situation should be simple to deal with - just 'grandfather in' any EU citizen who's already in the UK and working at Brexit time as 'legal immigrants with work visas'. shouldn't be too hard at that point.

        (seriously making this all harder than it needs to be)

        It'll easy if you don't know EU citizen rights (they don't have to be working), don't know how residency is proven (last five years of paperwork), and don't know how resident EU citizens can be distinguished from non-resident EU citizens at the UK border (they can't).

        1. Duncan Macdonald Silver badge

          Re: Well, you're leaving

          After a hard Brexit Eu citizens in this county would only have the rights that the UK government was prepared to give them.

          A simple possibility - working for the NHS or paying UK income tax at the time of the Brexit referendum - 5 year work visa with the possibility of exchanging EU citizenship for UK citizenship, all other EU citizens - 12 month tourist visa.

          Very easy to determine eligibility for the work visa with these rules.

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: Well, you're leaving

            Of course, a married EU national (or one who is in a civil partnership or even one who hasn't formalised their relationship) who has taken time off to bring up a family or care for dependents should be converted to a 12 month tourist visa.

            Is it any wonder they're leaving in droves, having to read utter bilge like this all the time?

          2. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

            Re: Well, you're leaving

            5 year work visa with the possibility of exchanging EU citizenship for UK citizenship,

            Why the hell would any EU citizen give up a pass that gives you free travel and work in all EU countries in exchange for a pass that allows you to work in... the UK only

            That's just delusional.

            1. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: Well, you're leaving

              >That's just delusional.

              No, it has the pretense of being reasonable whilst enabling Johnson, Mogg and other like minded nutters to remove caps on Rest-of-the-World immigration; from where we know working in the UK, even on poor wages represents a much better deal that they get staying in their home country.

              Only problem is that many of those who voted leave, voted to reduce inward immigration of people from cultures different to the UK's...

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Well, you're leaving

                @Roland6

                "Only problem is that many of those who voted leave, voted to reduce inward immigration of people from cultures different to the UK's..."

                And many didnt vote for that reason. Hell I have friends in Africa, Russia, US, Asia and middle east who would love to come here but only my friends within the EU are from the promised land and so pre-approved. So my friends either come on a student visa and then try to stay or they cant seem to get here, unless they are from the EU then they have no problem.

                1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                  Re: Well, you're leaving

                  And that is entirely on the Home Office.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Well, you're leaving

                    @Dan 55

                    "And that is entirely on the Home Office."

                    I am inclined to agree. It was them who guessed wrong at the numbers who would use freedom of movement to enter the country I think. And by a massive margin.

                    1. Roland6 Silver badge

                      Re: Well, you're leaving

                      > It was them who guessed wrong at the numbers who would use freedom of movement to enter the country I think. And by a massive margin.

                      According to ONS, RoW immigration has outstripped EU immigration for every year records exist...

                      So whilst for a few years following the 2004 enlargement we saw higher EU immigration, it was still lower than RoW...

                      >Hell I have friends in Africa, Russia, US, Asia and middle east who would love to come here but only my friends within the EU are from the promised land and so pre-approved. So my friends either come on a student visa and then try to stay or they cant seem to get here...

                      Tourist and work visas are available, don't see their problem. However, I do see a problem that Brexit will make it more difficult for people with UK passports who are exporting services, to readily work (ie. deliver those services) outside of the UK...

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Well, you're leaving

                        @Roland6

                        "According to ONS, RoW immigration has outstripped EU immigration for every year records exist..."

                        I am happy to assume that true which still doesnt get in the way of the massive mistaken guess at the numbers coming in. Hell the RoW is bigger than the EU so why shouldnt it be?

                        "Tourist and work visas are available, don't see their problem."

                        You might not see their problem but they do. First we can drop the tourist visa, I am talking about people who want to come here to live here and be productive here. Second my Russian friend cant come here unless she earns more than a certain amount and has the chicken and egg situation of needing a work visa to get a job but a job to sponsor a work visa. She has been looking into this for some time as she would love to move here.

                        "However, I do see a problem that Brexit will make it more difficult for people with UK passports who are exporting services, to readily work (ie. deliver those services) outside of the UK..."

                        To the EU? Because RoW wont be changing. And its up to the EU how difficult they wish to be. Which is entirely up to the EU.

                        1. Roland6 Silver badge

                          Re: Well, you're leaving

                          >Second my Russian friend cant come here unless she earns more than a certain amount and has the chicken and egg situation of needing a work visa to get a job but a job to sponsor a work visa.

                          Been there got the t-shirt, although in my case my application was made against the backdrop of the "brain drain" and thus my UK passport ultimately scuppered my intentions and thus lead to me having a UK-based IT career.

                          I expect your Russian friend will end up doing similar, either they have the skills to enable them to land a job over the, not unreasonable earnings/skills threshold, or they don't. However, given you talk about your friends investigating the use/misuse of student visas, I suggest your Russian friend has either yet to gain the skills and experience necessary to land a suitable job and sponsoring organisation, who's skills aren't on the visa quota exemption list.

                          >Because RoW wont be changing. And its up to the EU how difficult they wish to be. Which is entirely up to the EU.

                          I seem to remember Farage, et al saying that the RoW would be queuing up to sign the best ever trade deals etc. and now you're saying nothing will changing other than the UK's relationship with the EU27, which the Brexiteers decided not only to f*ckup but also blame the EU for (the Brexiteer) f*ckup. Given the vast majority of the UK's services business is within the EU/Single Market, can you remind me what the benefit of Brexit is again...

                          However, if the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the decision on whether you (assuming you have a UK passport) or I can work in an EU27 member nation no longer resides with "the EU" ie. Brussels, it resides with each individual EU27 member nation...

                          1. codejunky Silver badge

                            Re: Well, you're leaving

                            @Roland6

                            "not unreasonable earnings/skills threshold"

                            Actually that is the thing that scuppers her. The irritation is that one of my friends from the EU landed an office job in the UK. In fact my Russian friend would happily take such jobs if she was allowed in.

                            "However, given you talk about your friends investigating the use/misuse of student visas"

                            No misuse. They come and study, pass the course and because they are here its easier for them to get employment and remain.

                            "I seem to remember Farage, et al saying that the RoW would be queuing up to sign the best ever trade deals"

                            And they did. Muppet May has dragged this on and tried to sell us out anyway so god knows what state the queue is in, hopefully during the prep time they actually did something instead of hoping to keep us stuck in the EU.

                            "and now you're saying nothing will changing other than the UK's relationship with the EU27"

                            ????? No I didnt. Not even in what you quoted.

                            "blame the EU for (the Brexiteer) f*ckup"

                            EU and the desperate remainers of the gov and civil service who are to blame.

                            "Given the vast majority of the UK's services business is within the EU/Single Market, can you remind me what the benefit of Brexit is again..."

                            Not being trapped in the EU. The benefits as always being- economics, sovereignty, immigration, trade, democratically.

                            "However, if the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the decision on whether you (assuming you have a UK passport) or I can work in an EU27 member nation no longer resides with "the EU" ie. Brussels, it resides with each individual EU27 member nation..."

                            You hope.

                        2. Dan 55 Silver badge

                          Re: Well, you're leaving

                          You might not see their problem but they do. First we can drop the tourist visa, I am talking about people who want to come here to live here and be productive here. Second my Russian friend cant come here unless she earns more than a certain amount and has the chicken and egg situation of needing a work visa to get a job but a job to sponsor a work visa. She has been looking into this for some time as she would love to move here.

                          Once again, you say "we could do this", "we will be able to do that" and being a member of the EU doesn't stop any of this happening now, while the UK is still a member of the EU. This is entirely Home Office policy.

                          1. codejunky Silver badge

                            Re: Well, you're leaving

                            @Dan 55

                            "Once again, you say "we could do this", "we will be able to do that" and being a member of the EU doesn't stop any of this happening now, while the UK is still a member of the EU. This is entirely Home Office policy."

                            Yes. Except immigration from the EU isnt. So we have freedom of movement for the promised land and the rest have to meet higher criteria. Many people all fighting to be on the same patch of dirt, for the same infrastructure and only the RoW can be evaluated on merit.

                            1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                              Re: Well, you're leaving

                              The UK decided not to implement any immigration controls that the 2004/38 FoM directive offers. Perhaps it should have. And that would have been Home Office policy.

                              1. codejunky Silver badge

                                Re: Well, you're leaving

                                @Dan 55

                                "Perhaps it should have. And that would have been Home Office policy."

                                That we can agree on. The ridiculous gold plating of EU law and selling the country by Blair in his ambition to rule the EU caused a lot of the problems. If we had a less 'bent over' approach to the EU people probably wouldnt be as bothered, but instead the UK gets to fund people to rule us without having a say. And now we have a say and every effort is put into stopping our exit.

                                Of course the EU aim of federalising isnt something popular with the UK and while we had this same battle over the Euro it was only Browns hatred of Blair that saved us.

                            2. Dr_N Silver badge

                              Re: Well, you're leaving

                              "Yes. Except immigration from the EU isnt. So we have freedom of movement for the promised land and the rest have to meet higher criteria. Many people all fighting to be on the same patch of dirt, for the same infrastructure and only the RoW can be evaluated on merit.”

                              Worstall's lapdog still peddling the same old tired immigration fallacies and lies 3 years on.

                              3 years and no plan. Just keep blaming the EU, immigrants and even students.

                              I've now learned to embrace Brexit.

                              And no longer be shocked about what well-off Brexit elite say in private about the less well off Brexit voters they helped duped.

                              Keep it up. It amuses me.

                              1. codejunky Silver badge

                                Re: Well, you're leaving

                                @Dr_N

                                My troll!!!! Wish i could say I missed you.

                                "3 years and no plan."

                                Its amazing isnt it! Almost like remainers are unable to deliver brexit. What a shock to nobody. And now we have boris who will do and say whatever he thinks will get him votes.

                                "I've now learned to embrace Brexit."

                                Only took you 3 years! Well done. Knew you would eventually get there.

                                1. Dr_N Silver badge

                                  Re: Well, you're leaving

                                  @codejunky

                                  Weak. Looks like +3 years of laying on the lies and spouting the Institutes' party lines on Brexit and commerce has taken its toll on you, ꓘomrad ꓘodejunꓘy. For you, the war is over?

                                  1. This post has been deleted by its author

                                  2. codejunky Silver badge

                                    Re: Well, you're leaving

                                    @Dr_N

                                    Do I guess that is the extent of your contribution? I dunno why you troll me but just so you know I am not available. Just in case thats what you are thinking.

                                    1. Dr_N Silver badge

                                      Re: Well, you're leaving

                                      ꓘodejunꓘy> but just so you know I am not available. Just in case thats what you are thinking.

                                      That the celibate life of a Brexit fundamentalist must indeed be difficult for you? Sad. (Flake News?)

          3. dbayly

            Re: Well, you're leaving

            After a hard Brexit BOTH UK AND EU citizens in this county would only have the rights that the UK government was prepared to give them.

            There fixed that for you

      2. anothercynic Silver badge

        Re: Well, you're leaving

        It's this "it's that simple" simplistic attitude that gets people upset. No, it's *not* that simple. So please, do wind your neck in. This time the experts *are* the experts, and you are not.

        And yes, a simple grandfathering in would be *lovely*. Except, as you will have noticed with the Windrush Scandal, it's not that simple when the Home Office didn't keep records, destroyed any records it had, and now sits there with its fingers up its back hole.

        Dogwhistle sound bites are cheap and easy. Screwing with people's lives has a *lot* of consequences.

        From someone who works with academics, in academia and science, and appreciates them.

    2. NogginTheNog
      FAIL

      Re: Well, you're leaving

      Who wants bloody experts anyway?? Especially foreign ones!

      1. Mike 137 Bronze badge

        Re: Well, you're leaving

        ""La République n'a pas besoin de savants [...]" 1794

        That was a mistake too.

    3. Rich 11 Silver badge

      Re: Well, you're leaving

      Ah, but you hadn't thought of that ?

      Of course we'd thought of it. It's the fucking government who refuse to listen and to get off their blindly-ideological, self-obsessed, short-termist arses.

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: Well, you're leaving

        Of course we'd thought of it. It's the fucking government who refuse to listen and to get off their blindly-ideological, self-obsessed, short-termist arses.

        But they're the problem. See for example-

        https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49321430

        A Green Party MP has been criticised after suggesting an all-women "emergency cabinet" could meet to try to stop a no-deal Brexit.

        Writing in the Guardian, Caroline Lucas said the cross-party group, formed of 10 female politicians, could "bring a different perspective".

        Never mind democracy, or equality, what's needed is affirmative action! Or just some action/inaction in line with the electorate's direction. The majority voted to leave the EU, the majority is being ignored.. And a minority figure thinks they should be the ones to determine the outcome.

        But such is politics. It's been blindly ideological for a long time now, leaving MPs with a few.. challenges. Like explaining Friday's power cut. How quickly one can go from good to bad news* when science and engineering demonstrates who's boss. Now, if only the UK hired more scientists and engineers that could explain why the billions we've wasted on 'renewables' was a very bad idea, we'd have cheaper & more reliable energy. Oh, and more money for schools and hospitals given they're large energy users.

        *The 'good' news would have been the tweets that the UK was generating nearly 50% of it's power from wind.. But then power cuts. Oops. National Grid even warned about this scenario in it's 'Summer Outlook', and lo, it came to pass. Politicians, aided by scum sucking subsidy seekers will now blame gas, not why Hornsea's £150MW/h (market rate is around £50MW/h) 'premium' power failed to deliver.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Well, you're leaving

          Funny how you blame the wind farm when the gas-fired plant also shut down. Why's that?

          1. John Sager

            Re: Well, you're leaving

            Because there was too much wind generation with no inertia against rotating steam turbines with lots of inertia. So the rotating plant that was on stream slowed down more quickly & the frequency dropped precipitately & London switched off (amongst other places) because it *really* doesn't like low frequency mains (dunno why, perhaps someone can explain).

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Well, you're leaving

              (dunno why, perhaps someone can explain).

              This-

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronverter

              and it's link to frequency drop is a fair start, although it may also explain the problem-

              Wind turbines with variable-speed generators have the potential to add synthetic inertia to the grid and assist in frequency control

              And is something the EU's imposed on industry. But it may not have lived up to it's potential given there's less inertia. Or far more complexity, ie balancing everything when wind is gusting as it was at the weekend. Then there's physics.. So power is the area under an AC sinusoidal wave, which is obviously time-dependent. So if it varies, that creates it's own inertia problems, ie motors where the torque changes.. Especially if there are assumptions that frequency will stay in a narrow range. If it doesn't, then more costs to include protection/correction mechanisms. That can also affect plain'ol electronics, ie you have a nominal 50Hz clock signal to sychronise things from. Less of a problem I think in decent kit given the availability of cheap clocks so you're not dependant on mains timing.

              Then there's the practical effects of an unexpected power cut, whether it's discovering your back-up generators don't work (Ipswich Hospital) or finding maintenance engineers who can get to kit to restart it safely following a power cut... Which obviously gets more challenging if you've got fewer maintenance engineers, and they can't get to site because the blackout's caused a lot of travel disruption.

              1. John Sager

                Re: Well, you're leaving

                Yes, synthetic inertia is the coming thing but I wonder how many of the UK's windfarms incorporate it yet. I get the impression it's not just a quick update of the control system software to incorporate a frequency-sensitive control algorithm, but there are impacts on the mechanical design too.

              2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

                Re: Well, you're leaving

                Ahh. The power cuts are all the fault of the EU! Maybe someone should tell France the windy EU baddies will make them trade their nuclear plants for windmills. They don't seem to have got the memo.

              3. Roland6 Silver badge
                Joke

                Re: Well, you're leaving

                and they can't get to site because the blackout's caused a lot of travel disruption.

                This is something we can expect to hear more often:

                sorry can't get to work today as due to an overnight power cut my car hasn't charged.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Well, you're leaving

              it *really* doesn't like low frequency mains (dunno why, perhaps someone can explain)

              When you overload a generator it slows, and the frequency drops. If it is connected to a grid then it will try to drag grid frequency down, which the grid will resist. When you reach a critical overload point the generator will start sucking power back from the grid to try and maintain it's speed/frequency. That will suddenly make the overload worse, and result in either the generator disconnecting or, on a well-designed grid, load-shedding to bring the system back into a stable config. The latter is likely what happened last week.

              1. John Sager

                Re: Well, you're leaving

                ?? All the rotating generators on the grid would have slowed at the same rate - they stayed in sync with the grid. None, except Little Barford & the windfarm, went offline. The frequency excursion was really bad - below 49Hz at one point - but the load-shedding was very scattered. I was wondering why the whole/most of London went off - why are the shedding relays set more sensitively to frequency than a lot of the rest of the country?

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: Well, you're leaving

                  ?? All the rotating generators on the grid would have slowed at the same rate - they stayed in sync with the grid.

                  Not entirely.. So..

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_services_(electric_power)#Frequency_control

                  This simple equation can be rearranged to find the change in power that corresponds to a given change in frequency.

                  and vice-versa. Inertia is a way to deal with that given it's 'real' inertia rather than synthetic. So Little Barford doesn't just slam on the breaks to 0rpm & there's a spinning mass that can add (or sink) power to try and stabilise frequency. Hence why there's traditionally been a bunch of spinning reserve to deal with fluctuations. Except thanks to our idiot politicians and the 'renewables' lobby, there's much less reserve. And windmills can't really help because unless they can switch from suck to blow, they're only going to drag power/frequency downwards in a failure cascade. Exception of course being when there's too much wind, or gusting, then it's someone else's problem to manage the instability.

                  That someone being the National Grid, which loves the money it makes from 'renewables' and had a nice £1.3bn or so profit. Would be a terrible shame if they were sued, or severely sanctioned. Consumers would still be screwed because the Danes got £150MW/h+ baked into a very generous long-term contract.

                  why are the shedding relays set more sensitively to frequency than a lot of the rest of the country?

                  When a similar situation happened in Australia not so long ago, one reason was because the windmill operators hadn't RTFM and didn't seem to realise the default parameters were perhaps a little aggressive. Otherwise, frequency stability needs to be pretty sensitive to avoid blackouts, or very expensive things exploding when frequency drifts too far out of spec.

                  But such is politics. Sensible politicians should be looking carefully at the forthcoming NG/Ofgem incident report, and consulting counsel to see if 'renewables' contracts can be vacated.

                  1. Dagg
                    Facepalm

                    Re: Well, you're leaving

                    When a similar situation happened in Australia not so long ago, one reason was because the windmill operators hadn't RTFM

                    No wrong, the problem was the whole grid collapsed and I mean collapsed there was a whole line of power pylons twisted and lying on the ground. Bit difficult to continue when a large chuck of your gird is missing.

                    Attempting to blame everything on renewables just doesn't cut it, just recently in Indonesia they had a total shutdown of the power grid after a single gas powered turbine failed. And incidentally the whole gird is gas turbine powered!

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Well, you're leaving

                      in Indonesia they had a total shutdown of the power grid after a single gas powered turbine failed. And incidentally the whole gird is gas turbine powered!

                      That's a fairly classic symptom of generators designed to protect themselves from overload by disconnecting, instead of having grid-level management that sheds load to protect the grid as a whole. You quickly get a cascade of disconnections, and it makes no difference what power source feeds the generators.

          2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Well, you're leaving

            Funny how you blame the wind farm when the gas-fired plant also shut down. Why's that?

            https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-09/london-blackout-occurred-amid-drop-in-wind-and-natural-gas-power

            RWE said its Little Barford gas station, which has a capacity of 730 megawatts, shut down in line with normal practice when demand hit 23,000 megawatts. National Grid and Ofgem need to investigate what was behind the wider system issues, spokesman Lothar Lambertz said.

            There's some debate as to whether that was an accurate statement, but plausible given the way UK power contracts work, ie wind has priority access, even though it costs 3x the market price. National Grid should know if Little Barford shut down per contract, or faulted offline.. The Danes are keeping their Dong close to their chest though. Dinorwig (pumped hydro) took up some of the slack, then gas.. I think from Little Barford restarting/getting back up to speed.

            1. Dan 55 Silver badge

              Re: Well, you're leaving

              So it wasn't a technical problem at the wind farm which was the source for the outage.

              1. John Sager

                Re: Well, you're leaving

                It could have been. We don't know yet. There's a lot of misinformation and the published timings don't add up. It could be journalistic ignorance or deliberate obfuscation. No doubt we'll get a better tale at some point.

                1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

                  Re: Well, you're leaving

                  journalistic ignorance or deliberate obfuscation

                  "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence"..

          3. Arthur the cat Silver badge

            Re: Well, you're leaving

            Funny how you blame the wind farm when the gas-fired plant also shut down. Why's that?

            Especially as the previous big power outage in 2008 occurred when a coal fired power station and a nuke went off line within 2 minutes. It's the near simultaneous loss of two generators that's the problem, not the nature of the generators.

            1. Martin an gof Silver badge

              Re: Well, you're leaving

              It's the near simultaneous loss of two generators that's the problem, not the nature of the generators

              Absolutely, but having been vaguely interested in generating policy for many years, I did wonder if the actual sequence of events was more related to National Grid's policies. Now, I may have completely misunderstood this, but in years previous, they had quite a lot of "generating reserve" - small (or even large) generators that could be brought up to speed very quickly in an emergency, but usually at a high price (note this is different to facilities such as Dinorwig, which are designed to take up short-term peaks).

              The reserve I'm talking about was mainly small Diesel generators held as backups by the likes of water companies, maybe a few gas turbines. National Grid had to pay the operators to make them available, and then had to pay through the nose for any capacity that was actually used - small Diesel generators aren't terribly efficient.

              In those years, load shedding was seen as a last resort. Switching off the rolling mill heaters of a major steel plant for 15 minutes (load shedding guarantees power won't be forcibly removed for more than a few minutes, and won't then be removed a second time for quite a few hours) probably wouldn't affect production of steel very much, but could be very useful when rebalancing the grid.

              Not so many steel plants around these days, and a few years ago (if my understanding is correct) National Grid decided to save a lot of money on standby generators by getting rid of most of this generating reserve. This meant they had to find a lot more users who were willing to be part of a load shedding scheme, otherwise known as Demand Side Response, and I have no doubt that there's no properly-calculated national scheme for setting the frequency sensitive contactors.

              Oh, and I believe smart meters are meant to be part of this in the long-term, allowing the grid to disconnect domestic properties as easily as industrial ones...

              M.

              1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
                Thumb Up

                Re: Well, you're leaving

                Not once did you blame the EU damnit! :-)

                Cheers, though, insightful post

            2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Well, you're leaving

              Especially as the previous big power outage in 2008 occurred when a coal fired power station and a nuke went off line within 2 minutes. It's the near simultaneous loss of two generators that's the problem, not the nature of the generators.

              I think it's both. So 2008, Longannet and Sizewell both went offline within a couple of minutes, and there was a frequency drop. I can't find the official report on that outage at the mo, but wind made it more complicated, as do interconnectors etc.

              Details regarding the Friday outage are still vague. So if the gas plant was a planned or unplanned outage, ie how true the Bloomberg article is. Or why Orsted/Dong haven't commented yet. If their part was simple bad luck and a simple technical fault.

              But to an extent, the details don't matter. The consequences do, ie the disruption on Friday. Especially when most of the public doesn't really care how their energy is generated, they just want it to work.. Which is the risk behind UK current energy policy, ie relying on expensive & intermittent generation whe n consumers want cheap & reliable. What is known is that the UK system is becoming ever more fragile & complex to manage.

              Losing 2 generators is perhaps unfortunate, but should also be part of contingency planning as it's not exactly an unforseen situation, ie it happened in 2008, it may have happened again last week. So the official report should be looking at any similarities, and if any recommendations post-2008 helped or hindered.

        2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

          Re: Well, you're leaving

          So you voted to leave the "undemocratic" EU for our suposed fairer UK politics (when everyone told you it's the other way around) and yet here you are moaning about the Uk politics, and are even surprised.

          News for you, the magic unicorns won't be arriving when we leave, either.

          Don't expect sympathy when caught in a shit-storm of your own making - especially as you're dragging the rest of us down with you.

          TL; DR: "told you"

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Well, you're leaving

            especially as you're dragging the rest of us down with you.

            Don't be silly, the EU is quite vocal that only UK citizens will be affected. That's why they're refusing to look for a deal that would work well for both sides.

            Live and learn, eh?

            1. DJO Silver badge

              Re: Well, you're leaving

              The EU were willing and eager to negotiate an arrangement that works for everybody including those on each side of the NI & ROI border but the UK negotiators were completely intransigent on that so it all grinds to a halt.

              This was going to be "The easiest agreement in history" - oops they lied, I wonder what else they lied about?

              (hint: everything)

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Well, you're leaving

                The EU were willing and eager to negotiate an arrangement that works for everybody including those on each side of the NI & ROI border

                For a very special definition of "works" that meant the EU stayed in control of UK trade until it decided otherwise, and the UK couldn't change anything. That agreement was great for the EU, and worse for the UK than either Remain or Hard Exit.

              2. EvilDrSmith

                Re: Well, you're leaving

                "The UK’s international trade secretary Liam Fox has said that the country’s post-Brexit trade deal with the EU should be “one of the easiest in human history” to strike. Speaking to BBC Radio 4′s Today programme, Mr Fox said: “We’re already beginning with zero tariffs and maximum regulatory equivalence. The only reason we wouldn’t come to a deal is if politics gets in the way of economics.”

                It's strange how you choose to ignore that last sentence.

                Also, I believe the claim was made in July 2017, somewhat after the referendum.

                But apparently, deliberately omitting the caveat, and pretending it was said prior to the referendum doesn't count as a lie. Despite it being clearly dishonest. Hmmm.

                Meanwhile pro-remain MPs who said in parliament /on TV at the time of the referendum that leaving could mean leaving without a deal and trading on WTO terms are now claiming that no one said we might end up on WTO terms.

                So when you say "they lied - about everything", it should, if we want honesty, be noted that that applies as least as much to the remain campaign as the leave campaign.

      2. ArrZarr Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: Well, you're leaving

        In all honesty, I was very on the fence between leave & remain for a long time.

        I have no doubt that, managed well, leaving the EU would bring benefits to the UK.

        I then asked myself if I trusted the Government to manage leaving the EU well.

        Needless to say, I wasn''t on the fence any more.

        1. DJO Silver badge

          Re: Well, you're leaving

          I have no doubt that, managed well, leaving the EU would bring benefits to the UK.

          With competent negotiators who hold the best interests of the UK population paramount then you could have been right, but we had the most incompetent, self-serving Tories who's only interest after their personal finances is to placate the Daily Mail.

          So with the team we sent to work this out a decent deal is 100% impossible, but never mind, some already rich people will get a bit richer so all's well then.

    4. Daniel von Asmuth Bronze badge
      Boffin

      Well, you wanted to immigrate to the EU?

      The EU is going through a wave of anti-immigration sentiment, which makes one wonder if they'd welcome a load of academics from the UK.

      1. Grikath
        Boffin

        Re: Well, you wanted to immigrate to the EU?

        The EU is going through a wave of anti-immigration sentiment against a horde of (sub)african wannabee immigrants without the education, language skills, and general understanding of culture required by the official route, coupled with an influx of people from Asia Minor through abuse of "family reunion schemes", who, again, by themself would never have qualified under normal immigration rules.

        Academics tend not to fall into that particular category, especially in the fields mentioned in the article, which tend to be crucial for a thing called "progress".

        You can keep your Humanities snowflakes though... Oh wait, they would mostly not be able to get a work visa past Brexit....

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well, you're leaving

      Er, the article does in fact go on to say that the number of EU scientists working in UK universities is increasing, just not at the same high rate it was. Net immigration of Euro-boffin-talent is presently on the up, not down. Future trend reversals cannot be reliably extrapolated from a single new data point, no matter how unwelcome or worrying a development that new stat is. Like everything else BREXITy, it looks like we'll just have to wait and see (alas).

      Euro boffins I know of don't want to go home - there's no or little funding for their work in their home countries (which are just as hard up as anywhere else). Quite a lot of them have chosen to get Permanent Leave to Remain sorted out instead of risking being ejected. The UK is a major centre for science funding (e.g. there's a ton of medical charities HQ'd in this country, even the odd tidbit of government funding) that, no matter what, will attract people from all over and will continue to do so.

      1. anothercynic Silver badge

        Re: Well, you're leaving

        They have done this because they've built their lives here. Their children were born/grew up here, they have homes here, they have families and networks here. Why would you (plural) expect them to simply say "screw all that" and bog back off to Germany or France or the Netherlands unless you (plural) had an anti-immigrant sentiment, especially when you (plural) then turned around and demanded that Brits on the Costa del Sol be allowed to stay in situ?

        People on both sides of this problem have a serious problem with how the British government has dealt (or not) with it. Both lobby groups want the idiots in charge to behave like adults and stop using their citizens (and Europeans) as chess pawns and come to a clear agreement. But that requires an agreement that also includes other things, like pension liabilities etc, which the idiots in charge don't want to deal with because it would make them look like they're striking a deal and not walking away.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Well, you're leaving

          There's an element of the previous Prime Minister in your argument with your "you(plural)". We didn't all vote the same way and it's unreasonable to base an argument or, indeed a policy, on that. Even a lot of former Remain MPs seem to have adopted that over-simplification. The fact is that the country was split down the middle. The Remain half is not going to let BoJo have an easy life when reality becomes unavoidable and no doubt that Remain half is somehow going to be rather more than half when "but we never voted for this" becomes a factor.

    6. streaky Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: Well, you're leaving

      Seems to me that if they don't want to live here we shouldn't be going out our way to stop them. Plenty of academics all over the world to pull from. You can work in a well-funded prestigious university in the UK with plenty of funding or toil away in ignominy in Germany. Not a massively tough choice.

      That being said if for some bizarre reason that seems remarkably unlikely the UK leaving the EU makes the EU in some way competitive in terms of research and finally gets the some universities worthy of note outside LMU (and even that one is a stretch) - then yay, more benefits of brexit. Wouldn't hold my breath though.

      Hate to say nothing of value was lost, but..

    7. pop_corn

      Re: Well, you're leaving

      Errr did you read a different article to me?

      > "The number of EU academics in all disciplines working in the UK is still growing"

      E.e.: they're not leaving faster then they're still coming; net growth; numbers going up. Which bit don't you understand?

  2. Warm Braw Silver badge

    Settlement Scheme for EU Nationals

    The UK was attractive for EU researchers because UK universities benefited disproportionately from EU research funding and they and their families could rely on being able to move around between institutions without difficulty.

    The settlement scheme - and proposed loosening of visa rules - are going to be largely ineffective: they do little to enable spouses, possible future spouses, children or elderly parents to move and work freely and they don't address the question of where future research funding is going to come from. In the absence of any directive from Brussels to ensure there is a reluctant commitment to invest in research and regional development, I suspect any spare cash we might eventually have left over from incinerating sheep in Rees-Mogg's 50-year receovery timeframe is going to go into tax cuts (assuming Tory success), futile nationalisation (assuming Labour success) or paying Scotland to house our nuclear submarines (assuming SNP success).

    1. unimaginative

      Re: Settlement Scheme for EU Nationals

      " they do little to enable spouses, possible future spouses, children or elderly parents to move and work freely"

      The proposed changes to the visa do deal with that. They will also extend the same privileges to non-EU academics. You know, all the valuable people being kicked out because of current rules:

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11485419/Japanese-academic-forced-to-leave-Britain-due-to-visa-rules.html

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/08/home-office-racist-refusing-research-visas-africans

      Sorry, it means a lot more non-white people coming in, which remainers seem to have a problem with.

      "where future research funding is going to come from"

      At the moment we give money to the EU and get some of it back. We keep the money, guess what we could do with it? As Bojo seems inclined to borrow and spend we could end up with more grants.

      "Rees-Mogg's 50-year receovery timeframe"

      Which is a remainer myth. What he actually said was that when we look back in 50 years time (i.e. when brexit can be objectively judged as a historical event) it will be seen to be a good thing.

      1. hammarbtyp Silver badge

        Re: Settlement Scheme for EU Nationals

        Sorry that's total bollocks

        Not only do visa rules mean that people coming here have less rights, but they don't transfer to spouses, partners or children. Not only that but the are predicate on the salary which means PHD students are pretty well out of the picture.

        A university lecturer is not some contract to hire, but want to go somewhere where they can live and become part of the community. That means they want to bring there partners and families, and when they are settled they want those children to stay living where they grew up and not become 2nd class citizens.

        As for the colour of their skin, I couldn't give a toss (unlike many on the leave side ), as long as they help Britain. If I am annoyed it would be the removal of my rights to automatically live and work in the EU, something that no clever visa arrangements will get you

        1. J.G.Harston Silver badge

          Re: Settlement Scheme for EU Nationals

          But your right to automatically live and work anywhere in the rest of the EU comes automatically with the right of anybody from anywhere else in the rest of the EU to come and live and work here. Many people weighed that up and decided it wasn't worth it. "If the French needing permission to come here means we'll need permission to go to France, then so be it."

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Settlement Scheme for EU Nationals

            > Many people weighed that up and decided it wasn't worth it

            I suspect that you are gravely overstating the degree to which most people thought about it.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Settlement Scheme for EU Nationals

        "Sorry, it means a lot more non-white people coming in, which remainers seem to have a problem with."

        PMSL

        I adore it when brexiter types try a racist reverse ferret. Hilarious.

        Can't wait for Priti's plan for Visa Free Travel from the Indian sub-continent.

        The gammons got foam-flecked about Turkey. There'll be a mass-gammon-extinction-event when then get wind of the trade-deal Patel has already hinted at from her previous role before getting fired for committing treason.

        Brexit is actually becoming more fun as it evolves.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Devil

          Re: Settlement Scheme for EU Nationals

          Brexit is actually becoming more fun as it evolves.

          I take it you are observing from a safe distance?

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Brexit bollocks

    Well done Brexiteer's another win...

    Can anyone give me any *VALID* reason why this brexshit nonsense is good for the country?

    Anon, as some Brexiteers are right wing thugs.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      good for the country

      For various values of "the country" such as Russia, China, USA it's not hard to see the good points.

      1. Nick Kew Silver badge

        Re: good for the country

        Good for USA? That's down to arse-licking in our corridors of power. If they think it's permanent, perhaps they should look how Blair's engineering of Scottish devolution to benefit Labour turned out after a few years.

        Good for Russia? Only insofar as it weakens a willy-waving anti-Russian power. It would be nice to think that future governments (in both Blighty and Russia) might behave more sensibly.

        Good for China? How exactly? China wants profitable trade above all else, and a weakened trading partner is bad for that.

    2. Any other name

      Re: Brexit bollocks

      .. this breexshit ... as some Brexiteers are right wing thugs.

      Downvoted, even though (as an interested, but not directly involved bystander) I do not see how Brexit is or could possibly be in Britain's national interest either.

      Whatever happens, you will still need to share your country and your daily life with roughly half of the population who voted the other way. Why make it worse than it already is by making all these people angry, or worse - convincing them that you are an idiot not worth listening to?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        You think that's bad - in Scotland add in the bitterness over Indyref, and the maths gets even worse.

        1. unimaginative

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          The Scottish Nationalists are campaigning for remain because its good for their cause.

          They lost the vote when the tried to sell independence as meaning no real change (keep the pound, no economic disruption, etc.). How they will do when they have to persuade people to adopt the Euro, maybe have a hard border with England (in the future, if not immediately), etc.

          1. iron Silver badge

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            Much easier if they sell it as not having to put up with BoJo, Rees Mogg, that twat at health, etc. Independence is a much easier sell when you have the Tories in charge in Westminster.

            1. ArrZarr Silver badge

              Re: Brexit bollocks

              As opposed to when the 2014 referendum was held and the Tories weren't in power?

              1. Benson's Cycle

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                I don't like Cameron but in 2014 the government was comparatively sane. Cameron and Clegg were nowhere near as bad as early Thatcher, and the weirdos like Mogg were hardly visible.

                The trouble is that in a two party system the two main parties become internal coalitions. That's how you can easily have people like Clarke and Heseltine, Field and Watson who could be in either main party, and a chorus of loonies on the fringes. In normal times the loonies are a nuisance but have little real effect.

                Then a real loonie party - UKIP - notices that the Conservative Party is shedding members, and its members realise that if they join the Cons they can be the tail that wags the dog. And hey, ho, over the cliff we go.

                In 2014, the loonie takeover was still a couple of years away.

      2. Spoobistle

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        > Why make it worse than it already is by making all these people angry,

        I believe that's called "appeasement". It works in the short term, but in the long run has a tendency to end in disaster. See "Danegeld" and other historical phenomena passim.

        Regarding the EU and science, a bad Brexit won't do either UK or EU any good, there are reasons why UK science does so well out of the EU budgets. Breaking that system will disadvantage both; the beneficiaries will be the US (where the Old World talent will go) and the (up and coming) Pacific Rim.

        1. Citizen99

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          "EU budgets". Funded by the UK (plus all the money we don't get back.

          1. elaar

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            Not this childish argument again.... How much is it exactly? Still believe it's £350m a week?

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            Oh no, not a Daily Fail/Express/Sun/other right wing rag reader.

            Yes the EU budget is part funded by us and the other members of the "club".

            But imagine its your golf / gentleman's / other club. Would you pay your subscription and expect to get it all back? No, as it opens the door to all the benefits of being in that club, you know like playing golf on the course, access to the 19th hole etc.

            In the EU's case access to a huge trading block on the doorstep, tariff free, employment and environmental protection, regional grants to parts of the UK that a London based Gov. certainly wouldn't bother with. Freedom of movement for EU citizens. Lots more, but I can't be bothered.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        "roughly half of the population who voted the other way."

        Please don't fall into the same statistical trap so many leave voters do: 17.4m is not HALF the country.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          "roughly half of the population who voted the other way."

          Please don't fall into the same statistical trap so many leave voters do: 17.4m is not HALF the country.

          And you even quoted the part where the poster clearly said "half the population who voted", and NOT "half the country". If you don't vote, your opinion won't be counted.

          1. BebopWeBop Silver badge

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            well actually the sentence is ambiguous - grammar does have some value

          2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            "half the population, who voted the other way" makes syntactic sense,

            "half the population who voted, the other way" does not - it's missing a verb, "the other way" makes no sense as a clause, but "voted the other way" does.

            It's pretty clear just from the syntax that the second interpretation isn't what was meant.

            1. Schultz

              Comma rules

              "half the population, who voted the other way"

              ... Means something different from... "half the population that voted the other way".

              Look up essential and nonessential clauses to spot the difference. Commas Rule!

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            Of course, those who are going to have to live with the situation for longest, the young, didn't get a vote at the time. Instead their fates were decided by people who'll be popping their clogs soon (probably sooner than they thought given how the NHS runs on immigrant labour).

            Given the demographics of which age groups voted to stay or leave, it's highly likely that the voting population of the UK today would skew a different way.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: Brexit bollocks

              @AC

              "Of course, those who are going to have to live with the situation for longest, the young, didn't get a vote at the time."

              And that is why in Wales an MP went to talk to 3 yr olds to get their opinion. Because he fell into the same stupidity as this statement. There is a reason for a voting age, its because know nothing, paid nothing, never worked and clueless doesnt make an informed voter nor the starts of one.

              "Given the demographics of which age groups voted to stay or leave, it's highly likely that the voting population of the UK today would skew a different way."

              However the kids going through school and even uni are practically commie in their beliefs. Right up until they get some experience and have to pay their way etc. Then they start growing up. Which is why not everyone is a leftie even if kids tend to start out that way.

              1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                >its because know nothing, paid nothing, never worked and clueless doesnt make an informed voter

                But it does seem to make you to prime minister

                1. codejunky Silver badge
                  Joke

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  @Yet Another Anonymous coward

                  "But it does seem to make you to prime minister"

                  I thought they went through a lobotomy before taking the job... or before

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                "However the kids going through school and even uni are practically commie in their beliefs. Right up until they get some experience and have to pay their way etc. Then they start growing up. Which is why not everyone is a leftie even if kids tend to start out that way."

                Hear, hear!

                AND we've had to pay for other people's spawn to be educated this way too!

                Collectivism at its very worst! If only education had been kept for those who could afford it, England would never have gotten into the position it's in today.

                Bloody leftie commies !!!!! The 31st October can't come around soon enough,

                Brexit'll sort out all of England's woes, eh? :-)

                NURSE!!!!!!

              3. Jamie Jones Silver badge

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                "However the kids going through school and even uni are practically commie in their beliefs. Right up until they get some experience and have to pay their way etc. Then they start growing up. Which is why not everyone is a leftie even if kids tend to start out that way."

                My God, a British person who believes Fox 'News'!

                1. codejunky Silver badge
                  Facepalm

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  @Jamie Jones

                  "My God, a British person who believes Fox 'News'!"

                  Actually I live in a student city. But you were saying?

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Brexit bollocks

                    > Actually I live in a student city

                    And some of us were students and remember that there was as much variation in political thoughts and attitudes amongst students as there is in older people.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Brexit bollocks

                      @AC

                      "And some of us were students and remember that there was as much variation in political thoughts and attitudes amongst students as there is in older people."

                      Within limits. Aka as long as you wernt seen as right wing (or at least sufficiently left wing in some groups). One personal amusement was an ex who was a lefty socialist etc who I got to watch the transformation as she was working (temp stuff), seeing household bills and buying property etc. She is still a lefty but far less than she was. Her friends however who didnt have much of that remained their extreme leftie selves and one has moved to politics (from science) and is still so commie I read her posts for amusement (labour).

              4. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                However the kids going through school and even uni are practically commie in their beliefs

                You will (obviously) have peer-reviewed studies to prove this? And no, foam-flecked opinion rants in the Daily Fail don't count..

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  @CrazyOldCatMan

                  "You will (obviously) have peer-reviewed studies to prove this? And no, foam-flecked opinion rants in the Daily Fail don't count.."

                  Amazingly peer reviewed studies seem to have other things to do, but research into the UK academia has been conducted. This is for the academics-

                  https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56eddde762cd9413e151ac92/t/58b5a7cd03596ec6631d8b8a/1488299985267/Left+Wing+Bias+Paper.pdf

                  Age affects political leaning-

                  http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/56280/1/democraticaudit.com-Age_significantly_impacts_on_the_choices_that_voters_make_at_elections.pdf

                  Of course there is the yougov reports on age/gender/education level for voting choice-

                  https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/04/25/demographics-dividing-britain

                  I currently live in a left leaning student city but studied in a uni in a different city which was more centre/centre right. I know it is anecdotal but I find the same left leaning here as I did there in the uni. And it isnt a shock nor necessarily a problem. It just shows the change of experience.

                  1. Benson's Cycle

                    Re: Brexit bollocks

                    "Left leaning student city".

                    Well, I'm guessing it isn't Voronezh or Akademgorodok, and there are no student cities in the US, so where are you? In my experience, only Americans and Russians who learned English in the US use "left-leaning".

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Brexit bollocks

                      @Benson's Cycle

                      "there are no student cities in the US, so where are you?"

                      In the UK.

                      "In my experience, only Americans and Russians who learned English in the US use "left-leaning"."

                      Thats ok, your experience is through what you have lived, which is from your perspective, which is limited to you only being in one place at once and not able to meet everyone nor know everything. So you now have something new to add to your lifes experience.

                      "The fact that you cite an idiotic right wing blog"

                      The fact that you dont like the source of the information being your reason to reject information? That is certainly a bubble mentality.

                      "Please, educate yourself about Germany from 1900 to 1945 before citing such bollocks."

                      Losing a war, hyperinflation, political stagnation and paralyzation, assassinations and the victorious from the war punishing Germany harshly. The national socialist party rising to compete with the communism which is why the two were so similar even with their differences. Both causing the rise of a dictator and similar views in removing people.

                      Go on.

                      1. Benson's Cycle

                        Re: Brexit bollocks

                        If you are in the UK why do you write "checks" instead of "cheques" ? Numerous things in your post point to American English.

                        And again I ask, what is this "student city" in the UK? Even Cambridge can't really be described as a student city.

                        You appear not to understand that in 1920 the NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers' Party) was a fringe left wing organisation which was taken over by Hitler, who refused to let the party progress politically while apparently retaining the 1920 program. Even a perusal of Wikipedia tells you that: "To [Hitler, the program] was little more than an effective, persuasive propaganda weapon for mobilizing and manipulating the masses. Once it had brought him to power, it became pure decoration".

                        Life is not long enough to go into all the factors involved, but even in the 19th century German socialism was distinctly nationalistic in tone. Hitler really didn't get anywhere until post-War German prosperity was hit by the Wall Street Crash, whereupon his far right message that it was all the fault of the bankers and Jews gained traction. As soon as he came to power, the 25 points were discarded. You conveniently forget that hyperinflation in Germany was some years after 1920.

                        Therefore, to argue as Worsthall seems to that the programme of the NSDAP in 1920 was in some way equivalent to Hitler's programme in power, and that therefore the social democratic programme of the British Labour Party is somehow about to facilitate Corbyn as Hitler II - is a massive misunderstanding of history. And Worsthall should know better. I already know you don't. Please do let me know the name of your university, I have a number of grandchildren who will be thinking about universities in a few years and if yours really is in this country - which, as I say, I doubt based on your spelling - maybe they should avoid it, since it is clearly not promoting clear thought in your case.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: Brexit bollocks

                          @Benson's Cycle

                          "Numerous things in your post point to American English."

                          I didnt realise there were two ways of writing it, I nearly wrote salary but thats not how I speak. There is a reason why sometimes software offers english or english simplified (american) and I must admit as a dyslexic I agree.

                          "but even in the 19th century German socialism was distinctly nationalistic in tone"

                          Ok. Nationalism isnt restricted to right wing, as the SNP are described socialist while being nationalistic.

                          "whereupon his far right message that it was all the fault of the bankers and Jews gained traction"

                          You mean the current left wing message that its the bankers and rich at fault? The communist argument that its the fault of the bankers and the rich? The marxist argument that its the fault of the bankers and the rich?

                          "in some way equivalent to Hitler's programme in power"

                          Nope. How do terrible events happen (the question I was addressing) and I provided an example of how it did come about. And the amusement of labour supporters being for it.

                          "Corbyn as Hitler II"

                          Probably not. He is more Marxist with a commie as his close companion. Less state directing private industry, more nationalise everything and steal it if its too expensive to buy.

                          I wont be telling you where I am or where I have been but dont worry, your grandchildren already have you.

                          1. Benson's Cycle

                            Re: Brexit bollocks

                            "I wont be telling you where I am or where I have been but dont worry, your grandchildren already have you."

                            Yup, poor kids. I feel sorry for them too.

                            You're quite right to be paranoid, though. I might dox you and send you a double glazing advert, since you clearly need to move to somewhere that has functioning windows.

              5. elaar

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                "There is a reason for a voting age, its because know nothing, paid nothing, never worked and clueless doesnt make an informed voter nor the starts of one."

                You seem to exclude "education", which is surely the most important aspect of becoming "informed".

                It has become very clear that age does not make you more informed in politics, and whether you have worked or not is completely irrelevant.

                The point is, no one is suggesting 10 years olds should have voted, but perhaps 16 year olds should have been allowed, considering they are now at voting age and yet we're no closer to resolving Brexit than we were 3 years ago.

                The other aspect you're forgetting about is that the official "voting age" has been designed for UK politics, where governments last a finite amount of time time, it was never designed for voting actions that last indeterminate periods of time where people of a younger age are affected to a greater extent.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  @elaar

                  "You seem to exclude "education", which is surely the most important aspect of becoming "informed"."

                  Then many who opposed a particular view and ended up in re-education camps must be seriously enlightened. Except education is not limited to academic credentials. Unfortunately people leaving uni often then need training to be capable of doing the very things they were expected to be taught in uni. Which is not a shock as a portion of the first year of uni ends up being to teach what they should know before the course.

                  "It has become very clear that age does not make you more informed in politics, and whether you have worked or not is completely irrelevant."

                  It is true that to be informed in politics requires some desire to know something about politics. But when your paycheck has a large chunk removed and the gov pump it into their pet projects and cut public services it gets peoples backs up. Those who rely on government money not wanting that cut off (and that applies to students and academics too).

                  "The point is, no one is suggesting 10 years olds should have voted, but perhaps 16 year olds should have been allowed, considering they are now at voting age and yet we're no closer to resolving Brexit than we were 3 years ago."

                  And the 16 yr old knows what about anything? They might think they know everything but yet have spent a huge portion of their lives sitting in a boring classroom shielded from the world and how it works.

                  "The other aspect you're forgetting about is that the official "voting age" has been designed for UK politics, where governments last a finite amount of time time, it was never designed for voting actions that last indeterminate periods of time where people of a younger age are affected to a greater extent."

                  Then we should require a more informed vote of people with life experience then surely. If we want people to look to the long term we need people with such experience instead of chicken littles. Thats a great argument to increase the voting age to people who can look for the best for the country and not short termism.

                  I am not actually arguing to change the voting age but mine makes far more sense. Who is most likely to think? The one who has had time and experience or the indoctrinated?

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Brexit bollocks

              Yeah my next door neighbor had a baby around the time of the vote, should it not have been given a vote as it will have to live with the decision even longer? what about any potential future children it may have should the baby have had extra votes because of them?

              The voting age is 18 because the majority of those under said age are mindless idiots, obsessed with instagram and social media and will vote whatever way their favourite youtube comentator tells them to. When living in a democratic society you have a common set of rules that, in theory, the majority have agreed upon. One of those rule is who gets to vote in elections and referrenda. You cant change the rules based on the question being asked as that kinda defeats the purpose of having rules.

              The only "fair" way to have a vote would be to have an exam on the subject matter (scientifically provable facts, not oppinions) beforehand, if you score low then your vote gets one point. If you score high your vote is worth ten points. This way one informed person can make up for the knee jerk, uninformed bollocks of ten others who are just voting as a proxy for their favourite "celebrity".

              1. hammarbtyp Silver badge

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                Yeah and most over 70's have lost their ability to think outside whatever the Daily Excess and Dail Fail tell them

                Certainly the conversations with most 16 years olds I have seem to be more clued in to the world that the over 65's I spoke to who seem to be still fighting the 2nd world war.

                Who do you trust with your future someone who live in the modern world of worldwide communications and internet enabled communication or those who still seem bitter that we moved to the metric system?

                1. werdsmith Silver badge

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  Point out that the elderly who are out of the system and safe (so they think) from the job market problems are influencing the economic future against the wishes of the generations that are going to have to spend decades picking up the pieces of the mess, and out come an army of idiotic straw men bleating about babies and three year olds.

                  What total fucking idiots. It's easy to see when they've got no argument against the idea.

                  1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
                    Coat

                    Re: Brexit bollocks

                    I guess you've not "debated" with CJ before. His grasp of logic is... imaginitive.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge
                      Coat

                      Re: Brexit bollocks

                      @Loyal Commenter

                      "I guess you've not "debated" with CJ before. His grasp of logic is... imaginitive."

                      Normally it would be worrying when basing your arguments on reality is considered imaginative. But from you I take it as a complement.

                      1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

                        Re: Brexit bollocks

                        Twisty-twsity, turny-turny!

                        I've yet to see a single confirmed fact posted by your esteemed self. And no, opinions posted on right-wing blogs aren't facts, neither are you-gov polls, conclusions of "think-tanks", or references back to how you previously "proved" your point sing equally convoluted circular logic.

                        Of course, I've no interest in trying to change your views, as you are quite obviously set in your ways. I can always encourage others to sense-check the bollocks you post though, before they go believing any of it.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: Brexit bollocks

                          @Loyal Commenter

                          "I've yet to see a single confirmed fact posted by your esteemed self."

                          Do you have someone read to you then?

                  2. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Brexit bollocks

                    @werdsmith

                    "out come an army of idiotic straw men bleating about babies and three year olds."

                    Sorry my mistake. Apparently they spoke to 11 yr olds!- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-43429355

                    While the BBC asked 9 yr olds- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/21/neil-hamilton-hits-out-at-childrens-childish-brexit-views-on-bbc

                    That makes them sound so much more grown up and informed! Nothing straw about it, they did it!

                    "What total fucking idiots. It's easy to see when they've got no argument against the idea."

                    Little childrens opinions are considered so important to this discussion, because the adults were polled and gave the 'wrong' answer really is fucking idiotic. Yet there it is. Your suggestion that the elderly would screw up the country to spite you is really idiotic. FYI- they aint out to get you.

                    1. werdsmith Silver badge

                      Re: Brexit bollocks

                      You really do have an endless supply of Straw Men CodeJunky.

                      Totally pointless, brick wall. Forget it. You reap what you sow.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Brexit bollocks

                        @werdsmith

                        "You really do have an endless supply of Straw Men CodeJunky."

                        I like how you have no answer to anything I posted even though it does answer the tripe you wrote, so apparently its a straw man. Elsewhere you wrote-

                        "I used to wonder how it was possible for people to have allowed some of the terrible events of history to happen.

                        I don't wonder anymore."

                        When you dont need to think and just cry straw man. When there is no need to debate or think because you must be right because you have such unquestioning belief. When the others must be uninformed or racist or *this can be a long list* to reduce the others to lesser than you. When you disregard discussion because it challenges your opinion.

                        It didnt take long to work out how people fall for such terrible events. Its pretty easy-

                        https://continentaltelegraph.com/politics/the-difficulty-in-distinguishing-between-todays-labour-party-and-hitlers-1920-25-point-nazi-program/

                        1. Benson's Cycle

                          Re: Brexit bollocks

                          The fact that you cite an idiotic right wing blog (Worsthal knows about lanthanides) written by someone who clearly has no understanding of the events around Hitler's takeover of the NSDAP is, I submit, futher evidence of what a lot of others have been saying about your posts.

                          Please, educate yourself about Germany from 1900 to 1945 before citing such bollocks.

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  @hammarbtyp

                  "the conversations with most 16 years olds I have seem to be more clued in to the world".

                  Let's rephrase that a little "some teenagers I spoke to share my opinions".

                  That takes us to "I have the mental awareness of a teenager".

                  At 16 I had very limited world view not having been exposed to employment, A levels, university, a wider range of diverse views, persons from different backgrounds with different education and life experience.

                  "Quick hire a 16 year old while they still know everything"

              2. Glen 1 Bronze badge

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                "obsessed with instagram and social media and will vote whatever way their favourite youtube comentator tells them to"

                instagram and social media...youtube comentator

                rewinding...

                TV and Radio... TV/Radio presenter

                rewinding...

                Newspaper... Journalist/Author

                rewinding...

                The family patriarch/matriarch... Mom and Dad

                Substitute as appropriate depending on era. Video killed the radio star, but the printing press killed word of mouth. Dickens was political AF. They would have gotten away with too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids.

            3. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

              Re: Brexit bollocks

              Given the demographics of which age groups voted to stay or leave, it's highly likely that the voting population of the UK today would skew a different way.

              No, it's not. If that were true we'd be solidly 90% remain by now, but if anything the anti-EU sentiment has been growing over the past 25 years.

              Young people are idealistic and inexperienced in the ways of the world, older people are realists. Somewhere in the middle young people become older, and change their minds. It's always been the case.

              1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                While I see your point regarding people changing their minds as they get older, that assumes the distribution of people across all age ranges is even. It isn't. *cough*Baby boomers*cough*

                Add to that the #remainernow people and how slim the original majority was, you can understand why the leavers fear a second referendum. I mean, if leave is the will of the people, the result will be pretty much the same, right? Like how May wanted to increase her majority with a snap GE... oh wait.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  @Glen 1

                  "Add to that the #remainernow people and how slim the original majority was, you can understand why the leavers fear a second referendum"

                  How many votes do we need? 1 GE to get the referendum promised by the previous governments. 1 referendum. 1 GE where the remain party was almost wiped out completely. 1 MEP election where brexit won hands down.

                  And each time a vote comes up we are told this will show the will of the people. 3-0 to leave. 4-0 to have a say on our EU membership. But next time it will be different so lets keep doing it until the 'right' answer is given.

                  All we need to do is allow the voting age to be lowered, wait until the children grow up and hope they dont change their minds, move the goal posts. But of course remain wouldnt want another referendum because they are non-binding and should be ignored if they win.

                  1. NogginTheNog

                    Re: Brexit bollocks

                    'How many votes do we need?'

                    Just the one non-fraudulent thank you!

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Brexit bollocks

                      @NogginTheNog

                      "Just the one non-fraudulent thank you!"

                      4 there to choose from. Go on.

                      1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

                        Re: Brexit bollocks

                        I chose the one where the remain parties got a higher share of the vote than the leave parties. Y'know, the most recent one - now the lie after lie of the brexiteers are being revealed for what they are.

                        Link

                        Don't get me wrong, there is a legitimate debate to be had, but when that conversation is being shouted out by "something something immigrants" and promises of Unicorns. Those arguments are met with the scorn they deserve.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: Brexit bollocks

                          @Glen 1

                          "I chose the one where the remain parties got a higher share of the vote than the leave parties"

                          Thats ok. You can pick any of the 4 votes we have had in which leave has won. Because remain has yet to win one. However you wish to do some 'fantasy election result'.

                          1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

                            Re: Brexit bollocks

                            'fantasy election result'

                            You mean like a General Election manifesto based on an orderly withdrawal suddenly becoming a mandate for no deal without a single vote being cast for the change?

                            If people wanted no deal, they would have continued voting for UKIP at the GE (Brexit Ltd having yet to exist then). Yet the Ukip vote collapsed. Yes remainers have to squint a bit to see a path to remain* , but to say No Deal is what the public want requires a whole lot of "lalala not listening" and outright denial that the things we were warned about are starting to happen.**

                            *(current squint is vote of no confidence, with whatever happens afterwards requiring either a 2nd ref os a GE)

                            **"Project Fear" and "Yes X, Y and Z, places are closing, that's nothing to do with brexit. And if it is, its short term. And if its not short term, our manufacturing industry well be leaner and more competitive as a result. What do you mean we are still competing with polish workers, except this time they are in poland will full access to the EU?" or one direct quote I heard "The UK is a service economy, the manufacturing industry will be run down like the coal mines were. It will be fine"

                            1. codejunky Silver badge

                              Re: Brexit bollocks

                              @Glen 1

                              "If people wanted no deal, they would have continued voting for UKIP at the GE"

                              Why? The referendum result was won. The referendum question of remain or leave the EU. And consistently leave has continued to win, 3-0 at the latest count.

                              Amusingly to stop a no deal brexit there has to be agreement on a new course of action. Except the politicians vote against no deal brexit (the default they cannot stop) but fail to get a majority for any other course of action. There is no positive alternative vision to brexit and the people have voted leave 3-0 now.

                              1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

                                Re: Brexit bollocks

                                "Why? The referendum result was won. The referendum question of remain or leave the EU."

                                The referendum was won by a *slim* majority on the basis that we would have an orderly withdrawal followed by a free trade agreement.

                                May called a snap election on the basis that she would increases her majority in order to have her deal through parliament. We ended up with a hung parliament that was only resolved through the confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP. Hardly a convincing victory.

                                Then we have the ERG arguing for no deal when EVERY leave politician I can think of dismissed it as scaremongering in the past. The same people who are now trying to say that's what we wanted all along. This was not put to the people until the European elections.

                                At face value, Brexit Ltds victory, looks fairly emphatic, until you add up the remain vote split across other parties. The question then becomes how much of the Tory/Labour vote would have been for leave or remain? The link I posted earlier admittedly takes a one sided approach to those sums, but then, so is screaming "we won you lost get over it".

                                "Amusingly to stop a no deal brexit there has to be agreement on a new course of action"

                                Indeed, and the only way *thats* going to happen is with a different set of MPs, and parliament is tantalisingly close to being able to enact a vote of no confidence. At that point, the only thing that would give any new arrangement a mandate is through a public vote (either a GE or 2nd Ref).

                                Johnson is quite obviously in GE campaign mode - suddenly there is a magic money tree, and has pledged to increase the number of police to a number similar to what they were before the tories came to power ..

                                1. codejunky Silver badge

                                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                                  @Glen 1

                                  "The referendum was won"

                                  Thats all you need to say. Its a fairly boolean concept. Its not a win-ish or win *grey area. Its exactly as quoted.

                                  "At face value, Brexit Ltds victory, looks fairly emphatic, until you add up the remain vote split across other parties."

                                  Which would be wrong. For the same argument that remain use to try and disqualify the GE result that there are other issues. There were 3 parties campaigning on pretty much only brexit for the MEP elections- Change UK (wiped out), Libs (remain), brexit. And brexit won. And by the rules of the contest brexit won.

                                  "Indeed, and the only way *thats* going to happen is with a different set of MPs"

                                  Absolutely. So we throw out most of the MP's but which of the various groups from various remain and various brexit do we bolster with their supporters?

                                  "Johnson is quite obviously in GE campaign mode"

                                  I am not sure he ever stops that. His opinion seems to hang on what gets him elected and nothing else. He would be for remain if it would get him the votes.

                                  1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

                                    Re: Brexit bollocks

                                    "The referendum was won", then the goalposts were moved.

                                    Just as people who voted to "stay in the European Community" may have changed their mind when the goalposts moved with the Lisbon treaty.

                                    By that logic as we initially voted to be a member of the organisation that became the EU, we should be a member permanently. It is, as you say, fairly boolean concept - and just as flawed. That's before we get onto whether a Brexit-in-name-only would honour the referendum*

                                    "which of the various groups from various remain and various brexit do we bolster with their supporters?"

                                    That is a matter for the electorate. If we end up with largely the same gov, or more Brexiteers, then no deal it is. However, I doubt it.

                                    *It would, and was what Labour was aiming for. The arrogance of some of the politicians to complain that what was on the table in the withdrawal agreement was not as good as what we currently have (Duh). To have the mental capacity to realise that, yet still think its the EU that's going to come off worse... Idiocy.

                                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                                      Re: Brexit bollocks

                                      @Glen 1

                                      "By that logic as we initially voted to be a member of the organisation that became the EU, we should be a member permanently"

                                      What garbage are you talking about now? You keep running away with goal posts over the referendum result. So what on earth are you on about now for permanent membership?

                                      "That is a matter for the electorate. If we end up with largely the same gov, or more Brexiteers, then no deal it is. However, I doubt it."

                                      3-0, we have done it and its happened. Brexit won 3-0. Referendum, general election and MEP elections. So no deal it is.

                        2. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: Brexit bollocks

                          the one where the remain parties got a higher share of the vote than the leave parties

                          There are plenty of interesting analyses of the results that largeky 'prove' whatever the writer wants to, remain or leave, but you deserve credit for having found one with some truly egregious maths.

                          By ignoring the Labour and Tory vote (both of whom campaigned for Leave), and skipping NI parties altogether, they come up with figures that show a pro-remain result.

                          Then they add all Labour votes into Remain (when 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave in the referendum), and all Tory votes into Leave (when 30% of Tory constituencies voted Remain in the referendum, and get another figure. Their conclusion is so badly-calculated as to be complete nonsense.

                2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  why the leavers fear a second referendum

                  It's not fear of one that would be a problem to me, but that it wouldn't help.

                  If there were some chance of a 60-70% clear majority for any option it might be useful, but opinion polling shows the same level of uncertainty as there was in 2016, so the result is likely to be another tiny difference. If the turnout is less than the first one then everyone will argue that it's invalid. If it's, say, 51% leave, it's pointless. If it's 51% remain then the leavers will demand a third one in another couple of years, and we'll have another 3 years of stalling and arguing while the EU sits back and laughs. All I can see coming out of another referendum is a boost for the LibDems and Brexit as people move to the extremes, at the expense of the other parties. Do you really think that something like a 51% remain vote followed by a Tory/Brexit Party coalition after an election would solve anything?

                3. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  Like how May wanted to increase her majority with a snap GE... oh wait.

                  That was sheer greedy stupidity on her part, but the numbers are interesting. The Tories did actually get 5% more votes, and Labour almost 10% more, at the expense of the SNP and UKIP (UKIP was considered irrelevant after the referendum had been 'won'). The way those votes shared out, though, meant that the Tories lost seats & Labour gained some. That's what cost her her majority, not any significant change in Tory votes.

                4. BuckeyeB

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  You can't keep voting until you get the result you want.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Brexit bollocks

                    You can't keep voting until you get the result you want.

                    Unless you're an EU politician.

            4. Zack Mollusc

              Re: Brexit bollocks

              Of course, those old people you villify grew up before the UK joined the common market, heard all the propaganda about how awesome it would be to join the common market, saw how that panned out , saw how the common market transformed into a superstate, saw how that panned out and then got an unprecedented chance to vote to leave.

              The young who will have to live with the results have only experienced life within the EU and so are wary of any change.

              1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                The young people see the older people taking advantage of membership of the EU through their working life, and now pulling the ladder up behind them.

                Its not something limited to the EU, things like final salary pensions, house prices relative to income, retirement age increasing...

                1. Zack Mollusc

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  Or the older people see how membership of the EU has affected them through their working lives and want to throw the young people a lifebelt from which they themselves will not live to benefit.

                  1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

                    Re: Brexit bollocks

                    Then perhaps you can explain what they think they are saving us from?

                    Pretty much everything someone has said we needed "saving" from have been things our gov had a say in, and for the most part, was all for. No amount of protection from the EU can protect us from our own gov. (although thanks to things like the ECG, the opposite is not true).

                    As for reasons to stay, being able to tell China and the US to do one when they flex their economic muscles is just the first off the top of my head. Trump has already got his eye on the NHS, with Johnson quite happily bending over for him.

                    1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

                      Re: Brexit bollocks

                      Apoligies for the double post, my sentence:

                      "No amount of protection from the EU can protect us from our own gov" seemed a bit ambiguous.

                      No amount of older people "protecting" us from the EU can protect us from our own gov.

      4. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        Whatever happens, you will still need to share your country and your daily life with roughly half of the population who voted the other way. Why make it worse than it already is by making all these people angry, or worse - convincing them that you are an idiot not worth listening to?

        You should draw a logical line here between those who voted for brexit (for myriad reaons) and those who cheerleaded for it (and still do).

        It's the same distinction to draw between the population of Germany in the 1930s and those that manipulated them into giving them power. The German people were, in a large part, victims of the Third Reich, not active collaborators. Then, as now, people were swayed with promises of "something better" after suffering economic recession.

        Some of the brexiters are indeed right-wing thugs. You don't have to look very far to see the likes of Bannon, Farage, Banks and their interests. All far-right nutjobs, and all very dangerous people.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          Some of the brexiters are indeed right-wing thugs. You don't have to look very far to see the likes of Bannon, Farage, Banks and their interests. All far-right nutjobs, and all very dangerous people.

          Fear not, you have the left has right on it's side! See for example-

          https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-49276909

          "Greta represents an a priori truth," Jamie said. "That the world has to change its basic construct and how it operates."

          On the track, titled The 1975, the 16-year-old says it's "time to rebel" and calls for "civil disobedience".

          Complete with Antifa t-shirt.. How quickly one can go from ideologue to revolutionary when you have some serious & organised politcal groups behind you..

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            Face it: Global anthropogenic warming is real. We need to change the way we use ressources. Neglecting to do that will have disastrous consequences.

            Yes. Real scientists agree on that, see all of the past IPCC reports.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Brexit bollocks

              Face it: Global anthropogenic warming is real. We need to change the way we use ressources. Neglecting to do that will have disastrous consequences.

              Nope, it's a great big nothingburger. Especially if you're thinking of studying at Goldsmiths-

              https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49321560

              "Declaring a climate emergency cannot be empty words.

              "I truly believe we face a defining moment in global history and Goldsmiths now stands shoulder to shoulder with other organisations willing to call the alarm and take urgent action to cut carbon use."

              To be fair, Prof Corner isn't a climate scientist, but does know a bit about fashion. And possibly revenue opportunities, ie taxing her supplicants. It's also a bit strange that the headline's about banning hamburgers, yet she rants about the environmental impact of beef. Oh, and there's a certain irony about a college founded by Goldsmiths being environmentally sensitive. I guess Corner's doing a Bismark. Enjoy your gold, just don't think too hard about where it comes from.

              Yes. Real scientists agree on that, see all of the past IPCC reports.

              Ah, well.. I have. So there's a thing called RCP, or 'Representative Concentration Pathway'. So they're some assumptions about the exchange rate between CO2* and warming. So at the disaster end, there's RCP8.5, which is basically 8.5W/m^2 additional warming due to CO2 levels rising >1000ppmv. That translates to a possible 4-5C warming by 2100, and could be bad.

              A more realistic scenario is RCP4.5, which tracks closer to observable reality wrt CO2 levels, projections and results in 2C or so warming. Which we've already had. So no 'climate emergency', and nothing in the IPCC reports that suggest we need to get decarbonising by 2025, or the planet gets it.. In fact, it says pretty much the opposite, ie the greater the negative economic impacts. Like unemployment, energy poverty, deaths etc etc.

              Sooo.. I guess to get back on topic, one potential test for visiting academics is to ask their expert opinions about climate emergencies.. And if they're part of the doomsday cult, throw them on the next carbon-free transport back to their place of departure. And as for Brexit, the UK will still have the ability to welcome researchers (and their funding) to the UK.

        2. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          @Loyal Commenter

          "It's the same distinction to draw between the population of Germany in the 1930s and those that manipulated them into giving them power."

          We leave voters appreciate your distinction and I would like you to know that I (and a lot of leave voters I know) also make the same distinction for those manipulating remain votes just as the Third Reich manipulated their people into their dream of uniting Europe under the national socialist banner.

          "Then, as now, people were swayed with promises of "something better" after suffering economic recession."

          There is promise in learning. It appears after such economic circumstances have occurred that there seems to be some resistance to those taking advantage of it (EU).

          "Some of the brexiters are indeed right-wing thugs."

          And some left wing nuts too. The idea of brexit crossing the isles for both the extreme ends and the moderate. Unfortunately remain seem to have the same problem Blair, Brown, Cameron, Osborne (who even directly threatened the population!). All pro-EU nutjobs, and all very dangerous people.

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            I used to wonder how it was possible for people to have allowed some of the terrible events of history to happen.

            I don't wonder anymore.

          2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            And some left wing nuts too.

            You're not wrong, you've got Kate Hoey on your team as well. What a bunch of winners.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: Brexit bollocks

              @Loyal Commenter

              Must admit I have no idea who she is. But as she is a politician I can only assume the worst.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                Must admit I have no idea who she is. But as she is a politician I can only assume the worst.

                She's an odd type. Ulster-born marxist Labour politician, who campaigned for Brexit and supports fox hunting (was chairman of the Countryside Alliance). One of those rare politicians who seems to take an issue on its merits, and doesn't just toe whatever line the party espouses this week. She really gets under the skin of most Labour voters, which can only be a good thing.

                1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  Ulster-born marxist Labour politician, who campaigned for Brexit and supports fox hunting (was chairman of the Countryside Alliance).

                  Indeed, some of her politics fit in with the far right ERG meembers like Rees-Mogg, and others with teh vanishingly small group of true Marxists. I find it entertaining to watch the brexiters simultaneously welcoming her for her far-right sympathies, whilst trying to vilify moderate socialists by casting them as far-left, whislt holding Hoey to their bosom, apparently with no sense of irony.

                  And of course, there's that photo of Farage and Hoey on the boat, looking like something straight out of Alan Partridge (although it's probably fair to say that Alan Partridge excudes more human pathos than Farage will ever manage to muster).

                  The only thing that surprises me about Hoey is that she hasn't yet defected to UKIP / Brexit "Party" (in quotes, because it's not a political party anyone can actually join, but a private company). Stillo, she's standing down at the next election, so who knows, her dream of running off into the sunset with Farage may still come true.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Brexit bollocks

      1. It could ensure we do not have another Conservative government for a long time. Unfortunately, sheep have short memories.

      2. The sooner we leave, the sooner we can reapply for membership although probably in separate sub-sections of the UK as it will break up.

      3. Various nationalists will like it as voters will no longer stay in the UK to stay in the EU.

      4. The Russians will be happy as this makes us economically and diplomatically weaker.*

      5. Some in the US will like it as it may give them a change to sell us very low quality goods whilst buying important things as bargain basement prices.*

      6. If we stay out long enough, our subs on rejoining, without all the discounts, will be lower than we are currently paying.

      7. When we, or our children or their children, do get back in, we will be in properly. We will be in the Euro. We will have proper freedom of movement, the same as everyone else in the EU (or whatever it is called by then).

      8. With a bit of luck, we will be back while Boris, Nigel and the rest of the cabal can see it on the news from their care hone. Perhaps someone will record their reactions for posterity!

      *That may be why they allegedly helped fund Brexit.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        When we, or our children or their children, do get back in, we will be in properly. We will be in the Euro. We will have proper freedom of movement, the same as everyone else in the EU

        I genuinely doubt we'll ever want to rejoin, since we never wanted to move from EEC to EU in the first place. I think the EU is about as big as it's likely to get. Future evolution will either be further departures as it starts to crumble, or a soviet-union style lockin & subsequent implosion.,

        (or whatever it is called by then).

        The Glorious European Empire. Don't forget to salute the flag on the way to the factory.

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          @AC you are thinking instead of feeling. well done!

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        Unfortunately, sheep have short memories.

        I would normally say that kind of thing about those who usually vote 'liberal' (or Demo[n,c]rat), when they accidentally 'get it right' and vote conservative (or Republican) a few times... but then end up going back to voting liberal again like a dog eating its own vomit, because they have short memories and aren't thinking for themselves most of the time (same in USA as everywhere else I'd guess).

        it's also why politicians are so DAMNED MANIPULATIVE and LIE all of the time, use EMOTION BOMBS instead of TRUTH, divide people and get them riled up like "community activists" do, and so on. People don't think well while "emoting". And so 'sheeple' have short memories.

        (but I bet their 'Emotional IQ' is WONDERFUL!)

        1. NerryTutkins

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          Always a bit confused by US politics.

          The present occupant of the White House fucks porn stars while his 3rd wife (former escort) is pregnant with his 5th or 6th child. And he boasts about grabbing women by the pussy.

          And his supporters worship him in Nurenburg style rallies while expressing hate for "liberals".

          If this doesn't qualify one as liberal, one can only imagine what liberals get up to.

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            If this doesn't qualify one as liberal, one can only imagine what liberals get up to.

            Some make movies about hunting 'deplorables'. Shame that's been canned because from trailers, it seems like the liberals were the bad guys. In the real-world though, liberals can't seem to get over defeat, and blaming Russia for their own problems.

            1. ArrZarr Silver badge
              Holmes

              Re: Brexit bollocks

              One of you republican voting Americans is going to have to explain something to me. I don't agree with you and probably never will but I want to understand your point of view.

              When you say liberal, what do you mean? What is the strawman here?

      3. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        2. The sooner we leave, the sooner we can reapply for membership although probably in separate sub-sections of the UK as it will break up.

        Rejoining is not the UK's choice if the UK is allowed back in it will be on condition of no rebate and accepting the Euro currency.

        That's if there is any pound left, and the country is still strong enough to be a net contributor. More likely will require EU money to rebuild.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        You have it all wrong.

        The USA will move in and we will become like Puerto Rico. Broke and totally beholden to Trump who will naturally win another term in the White House.

        And the world will edge ever closer to nuclear armageddon.

        Brexit was going to be so effing easy wasn't it eh? If I could I'd put Bojo and Farage in the stocks and pelt them with rotten eggs. They (and many others) lied through their back teeth.

      5. hoola Bronze badge

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        Or the EU will have imploded just like every other empire has leaving a catastrophic void behind. If that happens then even more eggs get broken and bluntly, a managed re-appraisal of how the elites of the EU operate and there vision just might be a good thing for everyone.

        The EU has radically changed from what the original concept was, mostly driven by Germany with a lot of help from France. The EU as it stands is simply unsustainable as current public opinion has clearly diverged from that of the leaders over recent years. There has been some good over the years but also a lot of bad (remember the butter mountains and various lakes due to over-production, paid for by subsidies).

        I don't have a right or wrong answer but maintaining the status quo is not going to improving things.

        The Russell Group represent a very narrow view and however you look at it are the elite. For all the posturing about inclusion and accessibility, it is a self-perpetuating cycle from the very start as people go through the public school system, into these institutions and out into business and politics (PPE anyone?).

        Gradual changes to how (EU) research money is distributed favouring larger grants for prestigious research at established institutions has further concentrated their grip at the expense of other Universities.

    4. K Silver badge

      Re: Brexit bollocks

      I can give you several valid reasons:

      1) The areas that voted "YES", will be dis-proportionally affected economically, so they get their due

      2) The sh*t spewed by the Right, will finally be disproved

      3) Benefits bums will no longer be able to use "bloody foreigners" as an excuse

      4) The economy will tank, benefits and gray-heads will be hit (see Point 1)

      5) Thanks to 1 and 4, readership of the Daily Mail will tank

      6) The conservatives will be ripped apart

      7) Boris Johnson will disappear from public life

      8) Nigel Farage will cry "Job-done" and migrate to US or Germany

      And more of a personal reason, it turns out I have a sadistic streak, I'm actually looking forward to seeing the misery inflicted on those who voted "Yes", and then I'll say with in a condescending voice "You were warned".

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        I'm actually looking forward to seeing the misery inflicted on those who voted "Yes", and then I'll say with in a condescending voice "You were warned".

        We once had a manager who taught me a very important phrase. When the company makes a choice you don't like, you can either quit, or "disagree and commit" where you do your best to get the most favourable outcome in the circumstances. Anything else simply makes you part of the problem.

        1. DavCrav Silver badge

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          "We once had a manager who taught me a very important phrase. When the company makes a choice you don't like, you can either quit, or "disagree and commit" where you do your best to get the most favourable outcome in the circumstances. Anything else simply makes you part of the problem."

          That might apply to a company, and even then it doesn't really. But in a country you can have 'agree', 'disagree and get on with it anyway', or 'disagree and try to change it'. Or do you think everyone in Hong Kong should just accept the Chinese jackboot?

          1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            in a country you can have 'agree', 'disagree and get on with it anyway', or 'disagree and try to change it'.

            Of course, but "disagree, gloat, and do fuck all to make it work" isn't a constructive option.

            1. werdsmith Silver badge

              Re: Brexit bollocks

              The demographic who will suffer most are the population that voted for brexit and haven't yet popped their clogs. Even the OAPs could well end up having to find a lot of money for health insurance.

              The smart people will be OK, they will know how to look after themselves.

              Great work inselaffe.

              1. Dave 15

                Re: Brexit bollocks

                The issue of health insurance is interesting. The Germans already have private health insurance, the EU like to copy Germany so are likely to be already working on such instructions (after all it fits nicely with their competition narrative). The EU also want a trade deal with the USA, they are not above deciding to do one and perhaps in so doing leaving the EU health service open to USA competition. Once they do this (probably with UK civil servants approval because they are on back handers) it will be the EU that is to blame for it in the eyes of our politicians and media so once again our guys will be able to duck censure for it. IF bojo et al head down the route of selling out the nhs to the usa in a post brexit Britain they will be the ones doing the damage and likely destroying their electoral chances. If I read our power grabbing politicians right losing the next election will be so unpallateable that the nhs will remain safe if we are out. Might seem a bit odd for remainers but I think out the nhs is safer.

                Before someone mentions chlorinated chicken, what you buy is up to you, but chicken washed in tap water isnt bad, and we drink chlorinated water, swim in it, bath (or shower) in it... I havent died of it yet though I am sure it would be possible if you crank the concentration high enough. On the other hand we have been subjected to German pork raised indoors in pens they cant turn around in and slaughtered by a knife in the guts and bleeding out on the concrete slatted pen they lived out their miserable battery farmed lives in full view of their neighbours who are about to receive the same knife. And the horrors of Polish and German raised beef and milk products extracted from cows kept in battery farms, frankly all of that is a whole lot less palatable. The EU also insist on animals being transported to slaughter houses instead of being swiftly disposed of in the field they lived in etc. as we used to do.

                1. werdsmith Silver badge

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  Before someone mentions chlorinated chicken, what you buy is up to you, but chicken washed in tap water isnt bad, and we drink chlorinated water, swim in it, bath (or shower) in it..

                  You wouldn't swim in or drink the concentration of chlorine used to disinfect chicken.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Brexit bollocks

                    Or wash your prepared vegetables, for that matter.

                  2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

                    Re: Brexit bollocks

                    You wouldn't swim in or drink the concentration of chlorine used to disinfect chicken.

                    At least, not twice.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Brexit bollocks

                      You wouldn't swim in or drink the concentration of chlorine used to disinfect chicken.

                      At least, not twice.

                      It's not that bad. The wash is 20-50 ppm chlorine, swimming pools should be around 2-4 ppm. Swimming in a pool at 20 ppm for an hour would be unpleasant, but unlikely to be dangerous even for asthmatics. It's not unusual to "shock" pools to 50 ppm to get rid of algae, then redilute back to a lower level.

                2. Any other name

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  The issue of health insurance is interesting. The Germans already have private health insurance ...

                  Yes, they do - however, it is important to understand how it works, since the system is quite different from what Americans would recognize as private health insurance. First of all, it is means-tested: in order to be able to be privately-insured, you need to have an income above a certain threshold. Below that threshold, you must be a member of a public insurance scheme (although you are free to choose your insurer; there are several). The cost of the public insurance depends on your income - it becomes more expensive the more you earn, up to a cap; you can also include your dependents in your public insurance without an additional cost, provided that their own income remains below a certain (rather low) limit.

                  Once you are above the threshold, you can still choose to join the public insurance scheme. In this case, you'll be paying the maximum contribution. You also have an option of getting a private insurance. Doing that has a number of advantages as well as disadvantages. The advantages are that you'll be probably paying less than the maximum in the public scheme, sometimes much less. It is often also easier to get specialist appointments - private schemes tend to accept higher billings than the public scheme.

                  There are also significant disadvantages. Most importantly, including your dependents will cost you more. You will have to pay most of your costs upfront, then get reimbursed (it is possible to arrange for direct billing for major costs, like hospital stays - but it is not automatic as in the public scheme). Finally, getting back into the public scheme is quite complicated - so you better be sure that your income levels will consistently remain high for the rest of your life, or at least for the rest of your stay in Germany.

                  With a few exceptions, deciding on whether the private or the public scheme - even if you are in an income braket where you do have a choice - is better for you is not trivial. The exceptions are those making well in excess of 100K per year (which are fairly few and far between in Germany), and healthy young professionals, coming to Germany for a stint of work and sure of moving out after a few years, before starting a family. Then, private insurance is clearly the right thing to do. In most other cases, you really need to run the numbers, and see what comes ahead ...

                3. Reg Reader 1

                  Re: Brexit bollocks

                  Damn, that's the beginning of the end of social healthcare in Europe. The US is not worth emulating in almost any way. Unless feeding more wealth to the top 5%(?) is your goal.

                  As a Canadian, I hold out hope that Canada will do less business with the US and more with the EU, but just like here, it appears the Fascists gaining firm control there too.

            2. DavCrav Silver badge

              Re: Brexit bollocks

              "Of course, but "disagree, gloat, and do fuck all to make it work" isn't a constructive option."

              I voted Remain. Why should I have to do anything to 'make it work'? Leave voters should have to shoulder that burden. After all, they thought it would be easily workable, and I don't. Sitting here and repeatedly saying 'it will be a shitshow, and I will sit here repeatedly saying it will be a shitshow' is a perfectly reasonable option.

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        @K

        similar things have been said about Pres. Trump.

        And look where we are now [economically, etc]!

        (And so HOW do you like your crow? Just preppin' for the grillin' later, in a couple o' years, when the meltdown does NOT happen, and UK people are better off)

        1. K Silver badge

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          @bombastic bob

          Its a short term gain - Pres. D Trump, has basically bullied his way, pissing off a lot of people and countries. Perfect example is blacklisting Huawei, which lets be clear, was done for economical reasons.. Rather than continue investing and licensing US technologies, they'll start investing in developing their own - So long term, it actually back fires.

          Its not a model I'd like to see the UK follow, and even if we did, it would not work. As a) we don't have the same economical muscles and b) we're are highly reliant on foreign investment.

          1. Dave 15

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            We have more than enough money here to invest, cut the rewards for being a piss poor manager in the board room or a banker (either rhyming slang or otherwise). Sort out tax system so that Starbucks, Tesco et al pay their proper share of tax here. Create a government backed investment scheme like the one we had in the 1930s and create a situation where the UK government only buys form the UK, even supplies foreign aid as UK produced goods and the investment will flow again... it is currently a mess because it is ok to stick a JLR factory in Slovenia and send the goods here.

            At the same time lets create the nuclear powerstations we need to create cheap energy, we have a whole pile of suitable generating capacity in the nuclear subs locked up on the south coast awaiting destruction.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Brexit bollocks

              @Dave 15 - That is pie in the sky bollocks.. Brexit was bank-rolled by billionaires, most of the Government ministers are millionaires, and are part of the Eaton "Boys Club". Their whole modus operandi is low-tax, make people and businesses richer, the last thing they are going to do suddenly have a clamp down on corporate taxes.

          2. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            Pres. D Trump, has basically bullied his way, pissing off a lot of people and countries

            And, let's face it, destroying the livelihood of an awful lot of farmers (especially soybean farmers) by taking away their major market in one stroke.

            No exports to China? Bye-bye the US soybean industry.

        2. NerryTutkins

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          I remember the Tea Party movement, a consortium of right wing, Jeebus-wanking weirdos who made "the national debt" their big thing.

          Where are these guys and their supporters now that Trump's tax cuts have ballooned the national debt?

          Suddenly these religious zealots seem to have absolutely no problem at all with a CIC who fucks porn stars, chummies up to Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un and who cowardly dodged the draft 5 times while disparaging those who fought like McCain.

          You just cannot take the right seriously. They have so much hatred, they'd happily destroy their country and the world (via climate change, which of course the 99% of scientists are wrong about) if it means kicking a few brown people in the nuts.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        re. 3) Benefits bums will no longer be able to use "bloody foreigners" as an excuse

        there will be plenty of "bloody foreigners" for an excuse, somebody's got to wipe your lazy Brit assess and pick your fruit, no? PLUS they'll be, OMG, COLOURED again!

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          From now on Baldrick you will stand out in life as an individual.....

          Indeed. All the other slaves will be black.

      4. Tom 35 Silver badge

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        2) The sh*t spewed by the Right, will finally be disproved

        Not going to matter, they still think trickle down is a thing.

      5. Dave 15

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        Clearly you need to get your brain installed and stop reading the BBC.

        1) The areas that voted out are among those that have been hit worst by membership and the associated diabolical implementation of EU rules by our low intelligent and disasterous civil servants egged on by the even less desirable and effective politicians (of all political persuations)

        2) Leaving is not a left/right divide, it is a divide between those who can think, can read history, can look at the disaster of the last 40 years and understand its causes and the remainers who just lap up the bbc bollox about 'Cambridge voted to stay and has lots of degrees so it follows the intelligent vote to stay... only it doesnt follow at all, it follows only that in Cambridge a disproportionate number of people are rich enough to have had their degrees oaid for by daddy and want to be able to go to their French villa).

        3) Its partly not an excuse, but it has to be said that the real problem about benefit bums is the benefit system. If a benefit bum gets off their backside and goes and helps farmer bill with the harvest it will take months to get the benefits reinstated while farmer bill pays totally shite wages because of all the polish that will pick the harvest for peanuts. Fix the real problem, a civil service designed benefit system whose major design criteria was creating more civil service jobs in the department (see yes minister for more examples)

        4) most of pension age have some pension provision so are actually pretty unlikely to be affected. If the economy does indeed tank (and there are good explanations why it shouldnt but possibly will - all revolving around poor management, poor civil service planning and piss poor mps) the ones that will be hurt most are the usual middle class suspects trying to earn a living, seeing wages continue to stagnate and taxes rise. As you can tell from the ever shrinking armed forces, ever raising taxes and the falling wages of the last 40 years this wont really be any different to the situation we voted to get out of.

        5) No one reads the daily mail, anyone stupid enough to buy a tabloid only does it for the cartoons... used to be page 3, but thats gone

        6) Will Labour be any better? I hope not, perhaps if both parties are destroyed some people might stop voting the way they vote because they always have and their parents did etc etc which is the mess that leads to stupid voters, poor mps, fraud, cheating, appaling laws created by wedges of cash in back pockets (all of our laws for the last 60 or more years) and the we dont give a damn about you voters attitude. So ripping parties apart is a very good and much over due outcome

        7) We might lose one of the more amusing politicians, though like losing any of our current politicians (indeed I think any politician I have heard about in 40 years or more), losing bojo will have bugger all effect on the mess the country is in - as yes minister and yes prime minister demonstrate fully, the civil service run the country not our lazy pathetic politicians

        8) Who? Thought he had already gone.

        Your last comment really is stupid. There is nothing to keep you in the UK, if you think that Spain for example is so much more of a success then you can live there. If you are already abroad then I expect I understand your stupidity and arrogance, you are probably hoping no other country has the guts to say no to the EUs united states of europe pretentions.

        On a more practical note there is no reason for the economy to tank.

        Decide what are strategic industries... aerospace, vehicle manufacturing (cars, vans,lorries), railway equipment and infrastructure manufacturing, ships, tank, guns, bombs etc. electronics (including silicon), food, mining, energy and a few others, protect with large tariff barriers and invest in them from a government fund, and most importantly buy from them (no more bmw police cars). This will allow them to create the new plant, new machinery, new jobs that we need to compete. For strategic industry overcome tariff barriers to the EU (the only new ones anyway) by adjusting tax rates for export goods.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          Dave15. You've been reading too much BBC.

        2. Glen 1 Bronze badge

          Re: Brexit bollocks

          Wow. Just Wow.

          1) "The areas that voted out are among those that have been hit worst by membership "

          Apart from all that European development fund money that our own politicians would only give lip service to when there is an election looming. *cough*Johnson*cough* Areas with a large industrial base that stand to lose the most from trade barriers or tariffs with our largest market.

          2) Leaving is not a left/right divide, it is a divide between those who can think, can read history, can look at the disaster of the last 40 years how the UK has risen from going cap-in-hand to the EMF in the 70's and become the 2nd (3rd?) largest economy in the EU... and understand its causes and the remainers leavers who just lap up the bbc bollox. {Why are they giving Steve Bannon airtime?} FTFY

          3) I partly agree with you here, with the caveat that high wages for such workers mean higher prices.

          4) "most of pension age have some pension provision so are actually pretty unlikely to be affected"

          Depends on the pension. If it is sensitive to market swings, no dice. If you have an annuity and inflation starts to rise, there will be issues.

          5) "No one reads the daily mail"

          Number 2 newspaper by circulation. So no one reads the Daily Mail only so far as no one reads newspapers anymore.

          6) I agree with you here. At the moment, Labour is hemorrhaging supporters because it is trying to not pick a side. It wants to be Leave for the trade unions, and remain for the Metropolitan Champagne Socialists. Brexit party and Lib Dems vote as increases because of this.

          7) Meh

          8) "There is nothing to keep you in the UK"

          There is nothing to keep *skilled* people in the UK. Which is ultimately the point of the article. Why would other countries want more shop assistants?

          "This will allow them to create the new plant, new machinery, new jobs that we need to compete"

          You've basically described Labours traditional MO. Also - Who is "them"?

          Last I checked JLR is foreign owned. Dyson the massive patriot is fucking off. BAE is mostly American.

          Capital doesn't give a shit about borders unless it affects the bottom line. If it becomes costly to do business here (eg Tax, Tariffs, regulatory issues), capital will be re-invested elsewhere, nothing personal, just good business. You want to subsidise you industry? That's fine, well take some of those Tax breaks, thank you very much (*cough*Amazon*cough*) This is happening in the manufacturing industry right now. Sunderland being closed, Fords engine plant, New vehicles being manufactured in other countries, not here.

          1. Reg Reader 1

            Re: Brexit bollocks

            The developed economies are screwed under Globalization. The wealthy aren't worried about that as the GDP of some nations, US and Canada, is growing, but taxation as a proportion of that is down and income to us Plebs is down or stagnant, while the income to the wealthiest is at all times new heights. Many Politicians from the 1970s to present should feel a great deal of shame, but I don't believe shame is part of a sociopaths/psychopaths make up.

      6. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        I like the idea of graffiti or billboards outside the job centres of sunderland saying:

        "We knew what we voted for"

      7. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit bollocks

        > I'm actually looking forward to seeing the misery inflicted on those who voted "Yes"

        Covered by the phrase "be careful what you wish for - it might come true".

    5. Rol Silver badge

      Re: Brexit bollocks

      Well. Seeing as the British tax payer had to stump up £350 million a week to be in the club, I'm looking forward to basic rate tax dropping to 10% and vat being abolished.

      And proper bananas. not those straight as a ruler ones, proper bent bananas.

      And if Boris doesn't deliver we can publicly birch him in Trafalgar Square, as I'm sure we'll get back to running this country as we always used to - faux carrot and a stick which looks alarmingly like a medieval mace.

      Ah! The good old days. Cheap prostitutes, child labour, and late life occupational diseases likely to fix the pension deficit at a stroke.

      And getting back to a proper system, where the train stops at your station and goes no higher.

      Sorry I'm just going off to the corner to weep tears of pity for the generations to come. Poor sods.

  4. NerryTutkins

    the part of the markets and business

    Tories claim to be the party of the markets as well as business.

    Now they're saying "fuck business".

    And looking at the GBP / EUR rate, it's clear what the markets think of brexit. They think the UK is fucked.

    As for Boris "Never bet against the UK" Johnson, I am sure George "I bet against the UK, and made billions" Soros could probably give him a good debate on that point.

    It seems quite amazing how the Tory party membership have managed to contort themselves into anti-business, distrusting of markets and prepared to see the Union (that's the one in their full party name) fall apart. And all because of a bit of jingoistic nationalism whipped up with a few quid on facebook ads from Putin.

    Not only that, they manage to cover themselves in patriotic jingoism and hold up Winston "United Status of Europe" Churchil and Margaret "Single Market" Thatcher as heroes.

    Brexit may or may not destroy the UK. But it will certainly destroy forever the conservative party's claim to be the party of business, the economy, the union, the markets or the natural party of government.

    1. unimaginative

      Re: the part of the markets and business

      "Now they're saying "fuck business"."

      That is precisely what a pro-market government should do.

      As Adam Smith knew , listening to business means they lobby for protection from competition - the opposite of free markets.

      Brexit is not about jingoism, it is about 1) self determination (which remainers think is the right of every other people in the world) and 2) walking away froma dangerous failed experiment. The united states of Europe demanded by "ever closer union" and made a necessity for those in the Eurozone will be unstable and quarrelsome

      1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

        Re: the part of the markets and business

        the opposite of free markets

        And completely free markets really, really don't work. Which is why the apparent bastion of free markets (the US) has government bodies to control business.

        The root cause? As soon as one company becomes dominant in a sector then competition disappears and that company becomes entrenched - which prevents any competition.

        'Free markets' are only attractive to theorists like Ayn Rand who don't have to live with the consequences. Much like 'pure communism' is only workable in books and theoretical works. Human nature isn't that easily distracted.

    2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

      Re: the part of the markets and business

      And all because of a bit of jingoistic nationalism whipped up with a few quid on facebook ads from Putin.

      Point of order - all the dark money that paid for those ads hasn't be definitively traced back to Russia. It's equally, if not more, likely to have come from the "alt-right" - people like Bannon. After all, it appears to have come via Arron Banks, who has closer associations with those people (and certainly has close ties to Bannon's bosom buddy Farage and by extension Trump). The far-right in the US are a different group to the Russian plutocrats, although of course, disruption to the EU economy benefits both groups.

      Russia are an obvious suspect only because they have a long history of psyops against the West, but don't leap to judgement when there are arseholes in high places in other countries as well. The most likely conclusion is that there were FB ads being paid for by several groups, all with different purposes, and the only thing they had in common was the targeted disinformation nature of them.

      1. NerryTutkins

        Re: the part of the markets and business

        It could be from the alt-right in the US. But they're two cheeks of the same arse. It's clear there are strong connections between the alt-right in the US and Russians, just like in the UK.

        It's also clear that Farage met the Russian ambassador to the UK, then denied it (photos later coming out to prove it). Aaron Banks denied it, then it turned out he'd had numerous meetings with them. He was also offered business deals with Russians close to Putin, that were basically money trees, not genuine investments with risk/reward.

        And it's impossible to ignore the meetings between Trump's inner circle with various Russians offering dirt and possibly more, in which Bannon was instrumental.

        The alt-right in the US, and their UK equivalents are all inextricably linked to Putin.

        1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

          Re: the part of the markets and business

          they're two cheeks of the same arse

          TBH, I couldn't agree more, or have come up with a better metaphor.

          I think, though, it is important to remind everyone that there isn't one bogeyman out there (i.e. Putin), and to look at those who point too often in that direction to see what their other hand is doing.

          In the US, for example, I'm sure the Mueller investigation into Russian links with Trump was a useful distraction tool to take people's attention away from other people with more obvious connections to Trump (like Bannon). That's to to say that there wasn't necessarily anything for Mueller to find, but Trump's lack of cooperation with that investigation (of course, "no obstruction!") will have provided plenty of attention-grabbing to distract prying eyes.

          It's not like it's a novel technique to distract someone while an accomplice picks there pockets. It works all the better if there's actually something genuine to distract them with.

          I'd have reservations about drawing direct links between Putin and the likes of Bannon though. Occam's Razor suggests that although such links would probably profit both parties, they aren't necessary to the goals of either (weakening external economic threats, i.e. the EU). I don't think it's any secret that Russian money finds its way into far-right populist movements in Europe (and far-left and other anti-establishment groups), and I don't think it's any secret that Steve Bannon's money does the same either. Destabilising your opponents isn't exactly a new technique. You could probably find a Sun Tzu quote on it. The same technique benefits both without the need for any more collusion than a cursory nod.

  5. EBG

    whatever

    The university sector is bloated, way beyond serving any rational functionality. Yes - even STEM, even Russel group.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ICL..?

    I'm fairly sure my alma mater does not go by the name of a defunct cash register company, thankyouverymuch. "Imperial" or "Imperial College" are just fine...

    1. TheRealRoland
      Coat

      Re: ICL..?

      Probably just a metrics vs imperial miscalculation.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: ICL..?

      That "defunct cash register company" is still processing a lot of your data in various government departments and financial institutions. It may say "Fujitsu" on the letterhead, but at heart it's still ICL.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: ICL..?

      Imperial has been calling itself "Imperial College London" for a while now. Some sort of branding nonsense, I think.

      1. Tromos

        Re: ICL..?

        In my day it was ICST (Imperial College of Science & Technology). Since when has where it is become more important than what it does?

        1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

          Re: ICL..?

          Ask Birmingham City University. Not to be confused with the University of Birmingham. One is a Russell Group Uni, the other is a former polly.

          <rant>

          What gets me, is that qualifications (of the same subject) are *supposed* to be worth the same. Private school kids sit the same GCSEs

          The whole point of exam boards is to make sure grades are being awarded consistently. I might make an exception where Oxbridge folks go straight into a phD from being an undergrad, but otherwise... why do they think their 2:1 is worth more?

          Sure, the degree only matters to get the foot in the door, but why does a degree in philosophy from a Russell group Uni give you more of a leg up in a software career than a comp sci degree from elsewhere. Jobs for the boys.

          </rant>

          #notbitter #maybealittle

          1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

            Re: ICL..?

            why does a degree in philosophy from a Russell group Uni give you more of a leg up in a software career than a comp sci degree from elsewhere.

            Exam boards for GCSEs can create a level playing field because most pupils sit the same exam, but I doubt very much if the experience and finals exam after 4 years at an Oxford college or MIT or Stanford is comparable to that from an ex-Poly. It might be, but it couldn't be assumed, any more than you could assume that the CEO from a local family business is as competent as the CEO from a Fortune 500 company, even if they have the same title & years of service.

            1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

              Re: ICL..?

              "but I doubt very much if the experience and finals exam after 4 years at an Oxford college or MIT or Stanford is comparable to that from an ex-Poly."

              Why?

              If they are to a different standard, then they are *not* the same qualification. Does that mean *any* non Russell group/ivy whatever should not be allowed to award degrees? Or should what the clever rich people get be called something else?

              1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                Re: ICL..?

                Why?

                If they are to a different standard, then they are *not* the same qualification.

                Which is exactly my point. Different courses + different exams, of course they aren't the same qualification, which is why they have different values to employers. It's called a degree simply because it shows that you've been measured against a standard. Standards differ, and so do degrees.

                Does that mean *any* non Russell group/ivy whatever should not be allowed to award degrees?

                How do you come to that conclusion? An institution's entitlement to award degrees is usually defined by law based on meeting certain criteria, schools that don't meet those criteria award non-degree qualifications. Clearly a degree awarded by a school that just meets basic criteria will be seen as having less value than one awarded by a school that far exceeds them, just as with everything else in life. It needs to be judged on its merits.

                Or should what the clever rich people get be called something else?

                Your suggestion that only rich people go to good universities is both incorrect and insulting. I went to an ordinary state grammar school, and then got a 2.1 from a red brick uni, some of my schoolfriends, from the same background, went to Oxford or Cambridge on scholarships and got firsts. Not because they were rich (they weren't), but because they had the ability to do so and yes, their degrees are probably seen as "better" than mine. So what? That's life, we're not all the same.

                1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

                  Re: ICL..?

                  "Standards differ, and so do degrees."

                  Indeed, a Bachelor's is not a Master's but if you can't compare between bachelors degrees of the same subject by grade, then what's the point in the grade?

                  If I have a BSc (1st class hons) from the former Polly, and I'm up against some one with a 2:2 from a Russell Uni, how do they compare?

                  My point is that they should not be called the same thing. if they are held to a higher standard, it should be reflected in the qualification. Call them Russell degrees or something rather than Bachelors. Have the higher standard be reflected in the name.

                  Then you have to ask question: Is a Russel degree worth more than a Master's from a former Polly? phD?

                  Otherwise its like saying you have a CCNA from Oxford.

                  1. Roland6 Silver badge

                    Re: ICL..?

                    >Is a Russel degree worth more than a Master's from a former Polly? phD?

                    Well if your degree was in computing from Hatfield Polytechnic; however, I suspect (Computing) degrees from the University of Hertfordshire don't have the same standing...

                    It is also useful to look at the rating the relevant professional body gives the degree programmes. I note that for example the BCS doesn't give an accelerated route to CITP/C.Eng for all degree programmes and for some universities you have to had studied particular modules...

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's a simple matter of exchange

    Given the choice, I'd rather be paid in Euros than GBP right now. I suspect that I might prefer it even more in the short-to-medium term.

  8. Dave 15

    So...

    We dont have a decline in EU academics, they just arent increasing as fast? Thats not surprising, they get better paid and more respect in other institutions.

    Next we will hear how there is a decline in foreign students coming here to study science, nothing of course to do with sloppy courses with vast price tags when compared to free university education in such places as Germany, a place I might add that could provide engineers with jobs that pay above minimum wage (unlike the UK who peg all engineer salaries to the cleaners or Bangalore, which ever is cheaper)

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: So...

      with vast price tags when compared to free university education in such places as Germany, a place I might add that could provide engineers with jobs that pay above minimum wage

      In Germany you can even take your degree entirely in English at such world famous and prestigious places as the Max Planck Institute.

      But we in UK have been doing our own thing instead of learning from Europe and this is why our Unis are in relative decline.

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: So...

        But we in UK have been doing our own thing instead of learning from Europe and this is why our Unis are in relative decline.

        That must explain why the UK has 4 universities in the world top 10, and the nearest other EU uni is at #50

  9. Mozwump
    Thumb Up

    Tap tap tap - is this thing hollow?

    Relying on 'talented' foreign 'expertise'' to brutally undercut the living standards of those that would otherwise do the job is just not sustainable. It just hollows out the UK's experience base and the detrimental effects will be felt for many decades. It's time to plan for a sustainable UK workforce - not transient tourist temps taking opportunities away from established communities.

    1. J.G.Harston Silver badge

      Re: Tap tap tap - is this thing hollow?

      "Hey, how can we compete with other counties, scientifically?"

      "Train lots of scientists?"

      "Nah, we'll just take *their* scientists. Increase the number we have, decrease the number they have. Double bubble!"

      1. Hans 1 Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Tap tap tap - is this thing hollow?

        "Nah, we'll just take *their* scientists. Increase the number we have, decrease the number they have. Double bubble!"

        For that you need an attractive and sane economy with a halfway sane gouvernment, neither of these hold true for the UK. Funding for new scientific resarch in the UK is gone due to the referendum result, has been reported here multiple times.

        Apart from that, have you fed your unicorns this morning ?

        1. J.G.Harston Silver badge

          Re: Tap tap tap - is this thing hollow?

          The unicorns seem to be being ridden by those that were arguing that we had to stay in the EU because we were sooooo crap as a nation that the only way we could have a functioning economy was by sucking workers out of other economies, the only was we could have a functioning health service was by sucking health workers out of other countries, the only way we could do any scientific research was by sucking scientists out of other countries. And that's before getting to the argument that we are so unutterly stupid as an electorate that we couldn't, nay, MUSTN'T be trusted with electing our own government and must be run from Brussels.

          Remind me, what was the British Empire based on? Extracting resources out of other countries and sucking it all into the mother country to keep the mother country running?

  10. Hans 1 Silver badge

    But the people voted to leave the EU

    No, no, no, no, and ... you guessed it, No.

    The people voted for a promise of a better deal than we already had!

    "By leaving the EU, we will be able to negotiate a better deal with the EU, and have our own trade deals with others."

    The lies are still online: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

    1. EvilDrSmith

      Re: But the people voted to leave the EU

      Erm, No.

      "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave European Union?"

      The people voted to remain a member of the European Union, or they voted to leave the European Union, or they choose not to vote and accept the majority decision.

      The lies of the leave campaign may still be online, the lines of the remain campaign are still being repeated daily on national media

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's a shit show, but Brexit is a fantastic excuse

    "Chemistry, bio-sciences, physics and engineering are being hit disproportionately hard. EU academics make up 27 per cent of chemistry departments at Russell Group universities but 36 per cent of academics who left chemistry posts in 2016/2017."

    Whilst those of us that work in Engineering & Science departments in Russell group Universities have seen very few changes in staffing, except through losses down to piss poor management and their favourite 'agents for change' appointed to reduce head counts and increase bottom line profit, a number of EU academics have been considering their options. Most don't want to leave, they know their on to a good thing, as one Italian Academic whom I've known from post grad who is now a senior Prof told me it's safer here, no armed hold ups and better prospects not just for promotion but more research funding!

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