back to article Apple kills iTunes, preps pricey Mac Pro, gives iPad its own OS – plus: That $999 monitor stand

At its Worldwide Developer Conference on Monday, Tim Cook addressed the Apple faithful and promised a host of software updates and some very expensive hardware – so much so that the hapless presenter was booed when announcing a $999 monitor stand. On the software side, Apple met developer expectations by announcing iOS apps …

  1. Andrew Norton

    I have one of those stands.

    it came with the Dell 2007FP monitor I picked up at Goodwill for $15. Well, when I say 'one of those stands', I meant it does everything that thousand dollar one does, and a little more.

    It has the 90 degree pivot on the base, for easy rotating. it goes up and down the stand, it tilts back and forward, and it lets me rotate the display 90 degrees to make it portrait, as needed. Sure the monitor's only 1200x1600 rather than 6k, so i have about a tenth the resolution, but again, $15.

    1. HCV

      only 1200x1600

      Well, there you go. If you had more pixels, you'd need a better stand.

      1. Andrew Norton

        Re: only 1200x1600

        I have more monitors instead.

        I've tried 4k monitors, etc. but I need the seperation of multiple displays, as a lot of things try and hog as much of a monitor as they can.

        1. thondwe

          Re: only 1200x1600

          My Dell Monitors come with a handy utility to "virtualise" the Monitor - so constrained tiling sort of thing - works well, it also remembers my windows layout as I dock/undock my laptop! It's clearly a 3rd party tool, but "Delled" - no idea if it's available for other brands...

        2. JDX Gold badge

          Re: only 1200x1600

          I think these are aimed at video editing, if you want to edit 4K video you need at least 4k screen. It's aimed at a specific demographic not regular users.

          1. Andrew Norton

            Re: only 1200x1600

            I edit video (right this second, as I type this, I'm taking a break from editing a 7 hour multicamera 1080p sequence (most of the time has been spent on syncing, as some cameras were on for 90 seconds, then off again, and it was so noisy for much of it that it was hard to do an audio sync)

            it's a myth you need to edit 4k on a 4k monitor. hell, my editor is set to do playback at 1/4 res and only shows full detail when paused. That's just because anything else is a waste. I can check the sharpness with stills, I'd rather have the fluidity with it for editing as the system isn't choking itself needlessly on playing back 4k while editing. once I get my edits done, do a test render, and play on a standalone 4k source is better.

            Now, editing HDR video would require a HDR monitor, because color accuracy/correction, but that's another story.

            Besides, while I have access to a bunch of 4k cameras, I rarely shoot in 4k, just no need for it, if my target playback audience is mainly using 1080, why waste time, space and processing power going 4k?

            Shooting a film, sure, I'll go 4k. 90% of what I shoot ends up either on somewhere like youtube, OR used in events where the projector is 1080. So I'd rather do a damned good 1080p render, than a 4k render and hope whatever downscales it doesn't butcher it.

        3. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

          Re: only 1200x1600

          I've tried 4k monitors, etc. but I need the seperation of multiple displays, as a lot of things try and hog as much of a monitor as they can.

          Personally, the best compromise I have found at home with the limits of desk space is two 24" borderless UHD monitors, which give around the same number of pixels as a single 4K monitor, but give a more usable workspace for development work, and will play games on one monitor at a reasonable FPS with a 4 year old graphics card.

      2. Overflowing Stack

        Re: only 1200x1600

        Yes, the pixels weigh more

        1. HCV

          Re: only 1200x1600

          Yes, the pixels weigh more

          ...right?

          1. TRT Silver badge

            Re: only 1200x1600

            Yes, but Apple have created a display with extra light pixels. Over 1 kilo-nits.

    2. vaporland

      you know someone

      will come out with the $49 stand....

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: you know someone

        Exactly. If cheaper alternatives are available (Apple mentioned a VESA mounting kit being available) what does it matter if Apple's own monitor stand is expensive?

        1. rmason Silver badge

          Re: you know someone

          The "VESA mounting kit" is a $200 metal bracket. :)

          As opposed to, you know, screw holes in the monitor.

        2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: you know someone

          No one has to buy it but it does send a signal about how Apple views its customers.

          1. stuartnz

            Re: you know someone

            "it does send a signal about how Apple views its customers." Well put!

            After my initial "A thousand bucks, are you SERIOUS?!" reaction, I did wonder if it's an executive boardroom sweepstake - they're running an office pool to see how many suc, I mean discerning Apple fans, they can persuade to buy these things.The gushing YT reviews from wearers of The Emperor's New Clothes should also be fun.

            1. LDS Silver badge

              "they're running an office pool to see how many suc"

              That, or their reality distortion field became so powerful it's starting to distort even Apple execs one...

            2. Rich 2

              Re: you know someone

              I can see the scene in the marketing department now...

              "Ok, I recon .....$999"

              [spits coffee out] "What the f***?"

              "$999"

              [regaining composure] "There is NO way anyone will fall for that"

              "Bet you"

              [aghast] "No way. That is STUPID money for a monitor stand"

              "Really.... I'm. telling you"

              [thinks] "...yea. Allright then - I'm game. But if anyone boos me, you owe me a pint"

            3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

              Re: you know someone

              Of course, at those prices then you can also be pretty sure than they still make a profit on every one they sell, even if they're built to order.

              More worryingly perhaps is that these products will push more professionals away from Apple for good. This is a pity because there are some areas where Apple workstations are the best tools for the job. And for a while, because Microsoft was too busy fucking around with the UI, it looked like Apple was going to keep this market for itself. Now, I'm not so sure, and I'm writing this on a Mac.

              Ballmer's revenge?

            4. TRT Silver badge

              Customers?

              Ker-chingstomers.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: you know someone

            There is a POV that Apple are deliberately taking the mick here. Just so that they can point out to the Feds that 'yeah we sell a stand but other stands are available that are also cheaper... How can we be a monopoly? If we were, we'd be making everyone buy one of our stands..."

            How far that will fly is anyone's guess. Mine is not very far at all. Apple are still taking the piss 6K or not.

            1. SoloSK71

              Re: you know someone

              Like the comment about the Android vs iOS uptake. Sure, iOS gets a higher uptake, as installation is just about mandatory and they deliberately obsolete older hardware, where Android you can be 3 versions back and still completely functional on a 4 year old phone

              1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

                Re: you know someone

                My Android phones lost the ability to update the OS much faster than any of my iPhones.

        3. Ian Michael Gumby Silver badge
          Boffin

          @Dave 126 ... Re: you know someone

          If the monitor support VESA then you need to find an arm that can manage the size and weight of the monitor. Wall mounting brackets tend to have a larger square on the back. You could of course find someone with a machine shop who could create an adapter plate that would allow you to convert to VESA if its not available.

          Again the issue is finding an arm that can take the weight. Then its a matter of setting the resistance. I have an Ergetron arm for my iMac ....

          Even still, the arm and base is still going to set you back some money. The largest arm is ~$190.00 USD and can hold a monitor >= 34" and 25lbs.

          I don't know the specs on the monitor so it may not work. If you want to have a desktop stand... you could always find a friend who has a CNC shop....

          1. Eddy Ito Silver badge

            Re: @Dave 126 ... you know someone

            And is good with magnets.

          2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: @Dave 126 ... you know someone

            It actually says stand rather than arm so the counterweighting is a lot easier: it just doesn't need to tip much. I have a 27" hi-res Acer that comes with a fully adjustable stand that even supports rotation, not that you need to adjust much once you've set your workplace up, and the whole thing was about € 400.

            And my 10-year old 46" Philips TV came with a stand that could be converted into a wall-mount, because they wanted to show green credentials. Wonder why Apple hasn't done that here? Obviously, these things are designed to be used in showrooms only.

            1. Gnoitall
              Facepalm

              Re: @Dave 126 ... you know someone

              The main green credentials Apple is interested in is the color of hundred-dollar bills.

          3. Dave 126 Silver badge

            Re: @Dave 126 ... you know someone

            > you could always find a friend who has a CNC shop....

            It used to be the case you'd need a local machine shop, but these days such things - CNC, laser cut, 3d printed - can be ordered over the internet. If the required piece of metal to convert this monitor to a VESA mounting is planar and can just be laser cut, then happy days.

            The more complicated a thing, the more expensive. If the monitor needs daily adjustment to suit multiple users, that means adjustment needs to be easy. If it's for just one user, a VESA bracket could just be welded to a scaffold clamp.

            1. Swarthy Silver badge
              WTF?

              Re: @Dave 126 ... you know someone

              Considering you can buy a CNC mill for less than the price of that stand...

              1. TRT Silver badge

                Re: @Dave 126 ... you know someone

                Well someone just needs to make a stand on this...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: you know someone

        Apple will issue an update so the monitor won't work if it's connected to a 3rd party substitute

      3. macjules Silver badge

        Re: you know someone

        But that will be Belkin, so the stand will work for a few months and then fail. Inside the box will be a couple of extra screws that you have no idea as to where they belong.

    3. phuzz Silver badge

      Even if you go for the most expensive fully adjustable monitor arm, that you bolt to your desk, it's hard to spend more than £200 (and then you're looking at stands for dual monitors). For example

      Assuming Apple have left proper VESA mounting holes on the back (rather than offering their own, propriety adaptor for $$$), I can't see how anyone can justify that price.

      1. davemcwish

        Monitor Arm

        @phuzz

        "This is not just a monitor stand, this is an Apple Pro Display XRD monitor stand"

      2. Baldrickk Silver badge

        Assuming

        You know what they say... To assume makes and ass...

        $200 for the adaptor

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "Assuming Apple have left proper VESA mounting holes on the back (rather than offering their own, propriety adaptor for $$$), I can't see how anyone can justify that price."

        Don't worry. Apple wouldn't miss a trick like that. Apparently according to other news sources, it's a proprietary magnetic mount. I'm betting they will release an adapter to allow third party mounts for $998 in the future.

        1. Eddy Ito Silver badge

          Not only is it a proprietary magnetic adapter they're claiming it's basically a quick-connector; from their website:

          Having the freedom to move between being on set and working in the studio can make a big difference. The magnetic connector on the Pro Stand makes it easy to attach and detach from its polar-opposite magnet on the back of Pro Display XDR.

          So what they're really saying is that they expect people to cart around their ultra-portable 32" display and have purchased multiple stands or adapters. Of course that makes sense because given the price of the display it's unlikely people will be buying more than one but I'm unsure anyone is willing to take the risk carting around 16.5 pounds of monitor at over $300 per pound.

          1. Dave 126 Silver badge

            > I'm unsure anyone is willing to take the risk carting around 16.5 pounds of monitor at over $300 per pound.

            Until not that long ago carting reference CRTs around in flight cases was the norm because LCDs weren't accurate enough.

          2. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

            It’s good that it’s a “polar-opposite” oriented magnet, or the stand wouldn’t work so well...

      4. macjules Silver badge

        This is why it is referred to as the "Cupertino Idiot Tax". Just be thankful that the stand isn't made out of glass and they charge you $250 if you get a scratch on it.

    4. 2+2=5 Silver badge
      Joke

      > I have one of those stands.

      I think you'll find that the official Apple $999 monitor stand is actually a privacy respecting monitor stand. You may have placed it squarely on your chrome-framed, opaque glass topped, standing desk in Hipsterville, CA, but it reports its position as being on a solid walnut partner-desk in staid, hard-working Boston. Or vice versa.

  2. HCV

    Catalina

    Will you be able to scan directly from Photos, or do you still need to do that from Preview?

  3. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

    So many storage questions

    4TB onboard storage seems low for a super computer price. Can it be loaded with spinning rust? Has Apple fixed storage caching issues that make spinning rust so laggy on MacOS?

    Someone shooting video or full-frame photos can easily have 100 to 1000 GB of project work. It would be tedious to have to keep manually moving that between fast SSD and and cheap external drives.

    The nice thing about a big Linux box is that extra RAM + SSD cache + stack of spinning can be used together with very good performance. (The obvious downside is lack of good commercial software.)

    1. DesktopGuy

      Re: So many storage questions

      Why on earth would you want spinning rust when the internal SSD can read/write at 3GB/s

      You would not saddle a high end workstation with such slow storage.

      If you need capacity, 4-16 bay external RAID is the way to go.

      A lot of the RAIDs and video storage servers I deploy can sustain around 3GB/s but are larger than the entire MacPro.

      1. rmason Silver badge

        Re: So many storage questions

        I think the point is that, these days, 4tb of SSD can be had in one drive.

        Were the user to purchase a high end PC they could have 2,4,6 or whatever 4tb SSD drives in the thing.

        Why is this only capable of housing or running 4tb of ssd storage?

        1. Gonzo wizard
          Facepalm

          Only capable of housing or running 4tb of ssd storage

          I'm thinking... possibly... maximum 4Tb of Apple custom form factor SSD storage - that would explain it. At a 'competitive' price, of course...

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: So many storage questions

          > Why is this only capable of housing or running 4tb of ssd storage?

          Because reasons. However, you can have up to 12 Thunderbolt 3 connections each out the back. Free free to spend as much as you want on external TB3 SSDs. :-)

          1. Vince

            Re: So many storage questions

            Or you could add more storage via the PCIe slots it has...

        3. Mike Moyle Silver badge

          Re: So many storage questions

          "... traditional desktop tower, dressed up in modern design and fitted for modularity," implies to me that there will be swappable drive bays á la the previous brushed aluminum Pro, whose design the new appears to be harkening back to.

          Could be wrong, I suppose, but that's how I'm reading it, at the moment.

      2. Dave K Silver badge

        Re: So many storage questions

        Because sometimes you need a lot of slower storage for big files. Our CAD/design machines at work come with a fast SSD for windows, applications and smaller files, plus an 8TB RAID-1 array (spinning rust) for additional storage. With this new Mac Pro, you're either stuck with working on smaller projects, or an external disk enclosure becomes an essential feature.

        1. seven of five

          Re: So many storage questions

          > or an external disk enclosure becomes an essential feature.

          They´ll gladly sell you one.

    2. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: So many storage questions

      You don't keep valuable data on any one machine or server, so like the older Trashcan Mac Pro the idea is shunt video footage etc into it from redundant storage very quickly, and naturally shunt the results of your work session off the Mac onto redundant storage as you go.

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: So many storage questions

        Hmm... 10G-baseT

        I suppose if you want fibre... module yourself up!

    3. Hans 1 Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: So many storage questions

      The PowerMac (LOL) has PCIe 4, and you, son, overlooked that.

      Get yourself a multi-TB PCIe 4 SSD, like the Aorus AIC, and be gone already!

      Spinning rust has nothing to do in computers, has not had for the past decade.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: So many storage questions

        "The PowerMac (LOL) has PCIe 4, and you, son, overlooked that."

        I don't think it does (in spite of what the ElReg article says). I believe it has:

        Three full-length PCI Express gen 3 slots onboard:

        - One x16 slot; two x8 slots

        - 75W auxiliary power available

        Plus the MPX options.

        AFAIK, Intel does not currently have a PCIe 4.x capable CPU/PCH available - it was expected in 2019 but they were expected to be 10nm parts. It is unclear whether Intel can easily (i.e. is it worth the effort given the potential delay to the products or do you wait until the 10nm/7nm parts get to market) retrofit PCIe 4 to 14nm CPU's and a new 14nm PCH.

        1. Unicornpiss Silver badge
          Meh

          PowerMac (and cheese)

          The specs sound about the same as a few years-old Dell Precision workstation, only more expensive. Dell's current offerings are likely even better. Unless you need to run MAC-specific software, I know what I'd rather spend my money on. I'm no Windows fan, but the sheer range of CAD, CAE, games, and other software makes this a much better choice IMHO. Better warranty too, most likely.

          And what's the deal with mouse support? On a bet I plugged a mouse, CD-ROM, and even a USB floppy drive into my ancient Android phone. All worked perfectly. I suspect that they would work on existing Apple devices too, with the appropriate adapter or Bluetooth.

          It's good to see Apple trying. The new Mac does look like a cheese grater though..

          1. TTY

            Re: PowerMac (and cheese)

            I bet a mouse, CD-ROM, USB floppy drive won't work on an iPhone. Those ipad keyboards that are supposed to make the iPad post-pc don't even have a touchpad.

            I seem to read that direct mouse and usb thumb drive sort had just be allowed on ipads.

  4. This post has been deleted by its author

  5. vaporland

    they've almost killed off all the "i"s

    steve jobs started the iPrefix, since he died tim has gradually replaced everything "i" with an 

    when they rename the iPhone as the Phone, steve will be fully dead and buried.

    1. Louis Schreurs

      Re: they've almost killed off all the "i"s

      Steve’s job is gone, he IS dead and burried. He acknowledged another job, keeping fanbois ‘n grrls moaning about his old job.

      1. macjules Silver badge

        Re: they've almost killed off all the "i"s

        Don't you mean "he S dead and burried [sic]" ?

  6. doublelayer Silver badge

    Nobody mourns iTunes?

    I'll put my evidently unpopular vote in for iTunes. It wasn't the nicest of software, in fact it was mostly a nightmare, but it was one application for the tasks you might want to do, namely controlling one of Apple's portable devices. Syncing with it, backing it up, restoring it from a bricked state, etc. It also organized music and played it, again not perfectly, but it could do that well enough that it helped sell iPods. Now, they have made three applications to do what one did, and I doubt they've actually markedly improved on those things iTunes did wrong.

    1. Greencat

      Re: Nobody mourns iTunes?

      It seems to me an admission of failure. Failure to produce a lightweight sync, maintenance, cataloguing and playback app that was easy to use. Arguably, some of those things could have been broken out earlier - but they'd have also made our lives easier if they'd simply allowed Finder based transfer of files. For a company which prides itself on usability as a USP, and given iTunes was many people's first contact with Apple, it was a dreadful showcase of their capabilities.

      1. Unicornpiss Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: Nobody mourns iTunes?

        What really would have been nice, and a very missed opportunity for Apple would be an Enterprise-grade version of iTunes with no emphasis on selling music or other content. Instead, a logical, intuitive interface that works reliably for backing up, restoring, recovering, diagnosing, and generally managing multiple users' i-stuff would have been most welcome and something that I would have happily paid a reasonable sum for, being tasked with managing hundreds of these temperamental little lumps.

        At one point I'd written a little script to 'clean' iTunes, removing all data from the user profile and Program Data folders, to reset it to factory fresh before plugging in a different user's iPhone. It would be very nice to not have to kludge iTunes into cooperating in a corporate environment. I'm sure many feel the same in the Educational realm as well.

        1. TTY

          Re: Nobody mourns iTunes?

          "they'd have also made our lives easier if they'd simply allowed Finder based transfer of files. "

          What?!! You couldn't do this on an iPhone iPad?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Nobody mourns iTunes?

      It's staying for Windows, so if you love it so much ...

      1. thondwe

        Re: Nobody mourns iTunes?

        Windows iTunes sucks, but I use it to play Apple Music on my docked laptop - what's the betting Apple DON'T produce an Apple Music Windows App that comes close to Spotify. (Switched to Apple Music as first to offer a family subscription - maybe I should switch back?!)

        1. Cavehomme_ Bronze badge
          WTF?

          Re: Nobody mourns iTunes?

          You did what??!!! Switching from the multi-platform Spotify to Apple Music is not only a constraining move, but you have less choice too. I don’t know a single Spotify Apple user who has done the same as you.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Nobody mourns iTunes?

          >>Windows iTunes sucks

          High praise indeed for such a turd.

      2. BebopWeBop Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Nobody mourns iTunes?

        Well, I should have down voted that for welcomeness - but an upvote for information!

    3. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

      Re: Nobody mourns iTunes?

      I dislike it, but I'm used to it. Unfortunately it didn't have to be this way, if Apple had stuck with their own user interface design guidelines. As it is, I have buttons and drop-downs where I should have tabs, left right arrows with no related context so I don't know what they do, icons that change every few releases, and of course the endless shoehorning in of tv/podcasts/apps/account managements, none of which are related to, you know, tunes.

      I note that Music app on the iPhone has gone the same way - selecting an Airtunes speaker used to be pretty trivial, now it's play, then swipe, search, press (not too hard, not too soft, just the right amount), wait, hope, with most of these steps giving no visual cues.

      I do like their stuff, but in terms of UI they've been steadily disappearing up their own arse since Snow Leopard. A tragic waste.

    4. Wade Burchette

      Re: Nobody mourns iTunes?

      The last decent version of iTunes was version 10. Ever since then, it has gone downhill and fast. Why is it so hard to have a proper, logical, easy-to-understand UI anymore?

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Nobody mourns iTunes?

      > but it was one application for the tasks you might want to do,

      At one time it was one app for tasks that you wanted to do. Then it became one app for tasks that Apple wanted you to do rather than tasks that you were actually doing. :-(

  7. Neil Barnes Silver badge
    Mushroom

    1.4kW???

    Why the hell do I need a computer which can eat that sort of power, except possibly if my house is cold? Am I to run nuclear fusion simulations in real time or something? It surely seems a lot to let me run a browser, an office suite, and an email client...

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: 1.4kW???

      Your icon is perfect given Apple's legendary thermal design in their computers.

      I hope there's no fan blowing hot air over something which breaks when hot and they get the UEFI fan settings right first time...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 1.4kW???

      For your stated needs, tablet will suffice, you don't need PC let alone workstation.

      Next!

      1. Louis Schreurs

        Re: 1.4kW???

        It must be nice to be able to post shitty comments as an ac

    3. Any other name

      Re: 1.4kW???

      If anything, the "1.4 kW" may be a little under-powered for the maximum specification of that system.

      First of all, it's only rated at 1.3 kW at the normal US or European voltages, dropping to 1.2 kW below 108V supply voltage. Secondly, just the Xeon W CPU in the max config is rated up to 255W TDP (so it will probably happily draw 350W briefly). A single Vega2 duo card will draw up to 550W. Add 100W for the miscellaneous stuff on the system boadd and hanging off external ports, and you've maxed out the PSU.

      If you were to add any more high-power-draw PCI cards (the advertised specs say up two 300W per MPX module, of which there are two), and you'v almost certainly blown your power budget and something will have to cutback.

      1. Unicornpiss Silver badge
        Alert

        Re: 1.4kW???

        The last generation of Dell Precision workstations had 1.3KW power supplies if I remember right. Nicely swappable too by just pushing down a tab and sliding the old one out, plus built-in diagnostics.

        Just because it's rated at X amount of max power delivery doesn't mean you're drawing that. There always is a margin, likely of a couple hundred watts at least, for that power rating. And most of the time you're probably only drawing about half of the max capacity. Often there is significant extra capacity for future expansion, or taking into account drawing every last amp from every USB connector and card slot simultaneously. (at least for most manufacturers selling ready-built PCs, if they're wise and not cheaping out) Just as you're not normally drawing the full capacity of the circuits in your home, or you'd be tripping breakers left and right.

        But I would be curious to put an amp probe on one and run it at the limit, just to see if it's over-engineered or not.

    4. big_D Silver badge

      Re: 1.4kW???

      You probably don't. But a video production company could easily make good use of such kit...

      Do you drive a car or an HGV? I wouldn't want to drive an HGV to work every day, it would be overkill, but I don't ask why they are still being built, because I see them delivering goods to shops and factories every day.

    5. Korev Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: 1.4kW???

      Am I to run nuclear fusion simulations in real time or something?

      It wasn't long ago that 24TF would have been the fastest computer on the planet... Even just a decade ago, that would have put your machine in the Top 250 computers on the planet

      1. Tom 7 Silver badge

        Re: 1.4kW???

        I always felt the one thing that gave Apple an edge was they took a OS OS and polished it till it shone. Now they just add lots of glitter,

        A Jeston Nano burns near 1/2Tflop dangling on a USB and 50 of them would do the same for 250W.

        I think the new MAC is not trying to simulate nuclear fusion but achieve it.

        1. NightFox
          Headmaster

          Re: 1.4kW???

          It's a Mac, not a MAC. Short for Macintosh you see, not an acronym.

    6. Dave K Silver badge

      Re: 1.4kW???

      You realise that 1.4kW is the maximum capacity, not what it will pull all the time?

      Run it with a single SSD whilst browsing the web and it'll probably only pull a couple hundred watts. Fully load it with top-end graphics options and stress everything to a high level and the power demands will rise accordingly. Given the price of the machine, a beefy PSU is a good idea as it will make the new Mac Pro flexible and expandable without worrying about overloading the PSU.

      1. Duncan Macdonald Silver badge
        Flame

        Re: 1.4kW???

        The problem is that it is not sufficiently beefy - loading this system up for video production work (multiple video cards) may stress the power supply.

        On the Tech Report website (https://techreport.com/news/34618/the-new-mac-pro-packs-in-28-xeon-cores-1-5tb-of-ram-and-quad-vega-gpus) it shows that 2 Radeon Pro Vega II Duo cards can be used along with a Afterburner FPGA accelerator card.

        Running the maximum configuration will have the PSU uncomfortably close to its maximum power capability. A 2kW PSU would have been better so that the PSU was not so stressed.

        Icon for the PSU temperature ====>

    7. Hans 1 Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: 1.4kW???

      Upvoted!

      Could somebody please inform Intel and Apple we have a climate emergency, that we have to cut power consumption at all costs.

      Thanks

      1. Korev Silver badge

        Re: 1.4kW???

        1.4KW is a lot, but a the render farm that this machine would be able to replace would have pulled a lot more power.

    8. phuzz Silver badge

      Re: 1.4kW???

      My home computer is running a medium spec i5, and a decent graphics card, and everywhere I've looked recommends at least a 700W PSU for that. (I'm using an 850 because I've also got multiple hardrives, ssds and even a DVD drive plugged in).

      For a system that might be running multiple graphics cards, and potentially dual Xeons (They've not mentioned multiple CPUs, but it's something previous Pro's offered), a 1.4kW PSU seems a sensible choice. As everyone else has already pointed out, 1.4kW is the maximum power draw, most likely it'll be pulling a third of that day-to-day, but if it didn't have the extra head room, Apple would have to deal with MacPros suddenly shutting down when they're put under stress.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: 1.4kW???

        "My home computer is running a medium spec i5, and a decent graphics card, and everywhere I've looked recommends at least a 700W PSU for that."

        Seems overkill. My i7-4790K + GTX 970 + multiple drives rarely goes above 300W draw. Having said that, I've still got a 760W PSU, because I couldn't get the 550W or 660W version ... doh

        " if it didn't have the extra head room, Apple would have to deal with MacPros suddenly shutting down when they're put under stress."

        Decent PSU's will handle going over their rated draw a bit, rather than just shutting down. Tech Power Up tried to destruction test a Seasonic X-Series that got to 50% over its rated capacity and was still within the ATX standards for ripple, etc, when they gave up trying to load it any further ...

      2. Dave K Silver badge

        Re: 1.4kW???

        A lot of people over-egg PSU capacities a bit. My home machine is a Ryzen 7, GeForce 1070Ti and has an SSD plus 5 mechanical hard drives in it. When it is sitting here now running a web browser and a few other bits, it struggles to pull over 200 watts. Even with the graphics card running full tilt in a game I've never seen it go over 500w.

        Saying that, I do have an 850w PSU in it...

    9. Flywheel Silver badge

      Re: 1.4kW???

      You may want to run a wind tunnel - that's why the fans can output 300 cubic feet of air per minute - perhaps Boeing will by some and do some proper testing...

  8. bin

    But....surely a number of Apple products

    are made in <whisper> china<whisper> aren't they???

    1. AIBailey Silver badge

      Re: But....surely a number of Apple products

      That probably explains the $1k monitor stand. It was $50 before the latest tariffs were applied.

      1. LDS Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: But....surely a number of Apple products

        Or maybe it's one of the first Apple product "made in USA" - the price reflects the US manufacturing capabilities after years of offshoring almost anything to China... it probably takes forty workers to make one, and two out of three are discarded because they don't meet quality requirements.

        Of course that Canadian aluminium became pretty expensive...

  9. Louis Schreurs

    We sat through 150 minutes of WWDC keynote so you didn't have to suffer

    I really appreciate that.

    No trolling whatsoever.

    No sarcasm either.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: We sat through 150 minutes of WWDC keynote so you didn't have to suffer

      That being said, I will now watch the part where the crowd started booing at the $1k stand :)

  10. Any other name
    Coffee/keyboard

    How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

    Coming this fall, the $5,999 base spec model sports an eight-core Intel Xeon processor, 32GB of memory, a Radeon Pro 580X graphics card and 256GB of SSD storage.

    That's some serious profit margin! Even if I take the top-of-line Supermicro $1200 workstation case+system board, blinged out with all possible heatpipes, wheels, and enough fans to levitate briefly (I swear by these cases - they are very much worth the money, and are built like a main battle tank. You can also slot them in a rack with $20 bolt-on rails, should the need arise), and add a $1500 Xeon Gold SSP, the rest of the spec costs peanuts - $100 for the RAM, $400 tops for the graphics card, and another $100 for the SSD. That's some serious profit margin right there - even if they buy their parts retail.

    Respect!

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

      Don't forget to add the $5000 monitor and the $1000 stand for the $5000 monitor.

    2. Steve K Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

      Where can you get 32GB of RAM for $100?

      Assuming it's ECC then an 8GB stick will cost you $110 on Crucial's site (for example)

      1. Any other name

        Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

        Where can you get 32GB of RAM for $100?

        You are right - the RAM is probably closer to $400 retail. Mea culpa - that reduces the profit margin from 90% to 85%.

    3. Rainer

      Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

      Can you actually work next to such a thing?

      I know that HP et.al also charge serious money for their pro-workstations, they are among other things, optimized for less noise.

      For raw processing power, I'd try to farm it off to a SMC server that isn't exactly under my desk.

      But this is for workloads than can hardly be farmed-off to a remote server, like (color-correct) editing those 8k video-streams or music-sheets with lots of instruments.

      Apparently, the color-correct display of HDR videos at such high resolution isn't really a thing available elsewhere. And certainly not for less money.

      People who earn money with this kind of thing are apparently able to make a business-case for buying it. I certainly can't, but then I'm not in that trade.

      People get worked-up on the price of the stand. But the reality is that every single one of those whiners wouldn't want to buy the display anyway at 4999 - with or without stand.

      That's a bit like people complaining about the costs of oil-changes for Bugatti Veyrons (20k apparently), though they'll never be able to afford such a car anyway in the first place.

      1. BebopWeBop Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

        Thanks - 20k oil changes, I won't buy one then

      2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

        That £20K probably involves getting it out of the ditch and putting it the right way up.

        1. TechnicalBen Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

          I heard quotes for respray/panel fixing on a Veyron start at $/£250k...

      3. Kristian Walsh

        Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

        A Bugatti Veyron is an apt example. A toy for the wealthy.

        This is a showpiece, it'll be bought with a matching Mac Pro to show everyone that you're the "real deal". That's Apple's market these days: the lifestyle entrepreneurs who spend their own (or investors') capital on whatever the most expensive equipment is. Actual "professionals" who have this kind of money to spend on tools will go for something with proper support from a manufacturer with a better reliability record than Apple's current one: if it's your livelihood, you do not want to be waiting for AppleCare...

        All we wanted was the previous Mac Pro tower. Something that cost maybe 10% more than a competitor, but offered easier upgrading. This thing costs at least 30% more than competing workstations... and (subjective, I know, but) it looks awful.

        1. Naselus

          Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

          "This thing costs at least 30% more than competing workstations"

          More like 50% more, and that's just tower vs tower before we even get into the silly nonsense about $1k stands.

          And tbh the specs are not overly impressive by modern standards; I was buying similar machines 2-3 years ago for £2000 each for architectural visualization work (lots of 3DSMax, full adobe suite, even some mega-scale point cloud stuff), only with a gfx card that's twice as powerful and 64 gig of RAM. This is not likely to lure anyone who isn't already running a Mac estate into Apple Land tbh.

        2. Unicornpiss Silver badge

          @Veyron

          The Veyron is an amazing car. 1100HP? Or is it more now? But routinely pro racers and backyard hobbyists get this much HP out of crate engines for less than $20K, or even beefed-up junkyard LS motors with bolt-on parts and some common sense and tuning for much less than that. And oil changes are about $50-$100. And some of these cars may go on to the 200MPH club at Bonneville, while some are even used as daily drivers. And some may not be as pretty or a status symbol, but you can build quite a few for the price of a Veyron, and for a couple more thou, they will handle and brake as well or better. Or just buy a few Hellcats or Teslas for the price of a Veryron if you're not the do-it-yourself type.

          It all depends on what you want to spend your money on--image or practical performance that's infinitely customizable. Same with Apple vs. others. While Apple does make some well performing devices, I don't feel that most people that buy Apple do so for the performance, but to be able to boast that they have one. IMHO if you're into Apple, the iPhone8 is a much more usable device and a much better bargain than the X, but naturally all the upper-level managers at our company are drooling for the X, while the 8 gets little love.

      4. Tim Almond

        Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

        "But this is for workloads than can hardly be farmed-off to a remote server, like (color-correct) editing those 8k video-streams or music-sheets with lots of instruments."

        But you could farm it off to a rendering server in the basement, couldn't you? And I bet you'd get a lot more vanilla Window server grunt for your money than Apple charge.

        For me this stuff is also about having components. A really powerful Mac is like those TV/VCR combos people buy, and then the TV dies and they lose both parts. And a farm is easily upgradable and replacable.

      5. defiler Silver badge

        Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

        That's a bit like people complaining about the costs of oil-changes for Bugatti Veyrons (20k apparently), though they'll never be able to afford such a car anyway in the first place.

        True, but the justification for buying a Veyron (or a Chiron, its replacement) is basically to go dick-waving with your wallet. I'd prefer a comparison to the good old Ford RS200. A beast of a machine, made to do a very niche job, very well indeed. And you'll need a new clutch every 5 racing starts - it'll be about £25k.

    4. Dedobot

      Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

      Mine latest purchase was SM mb X11 with 2 10gbe optical nics on board, xeon 4108 (8/16) and 128gb of rdimm .Cost me 2.3k usd. Thats entry level macpro main parts but 96gb of ram more. Hahaha poor Tim Apple's victims. Also I have 2 trashcans, dont ask me about them-i will not be polite at all to Apple Tim and the rest of the gang.

      1. JB Northwest

        Re: How much? They gotta be kidding, right?

        I've read on some enthusiast sites that the pricing is market average. These high end workstations run US$6-10k.

  11. Lee D Silver badge

    Hold on, I can't comment properly, I haven't stopped laughing yet.

    $6k for a $2k basic model, god knows what the top model costs but I bet I can match it for less than that "basic" $6k. About the only thing even vaguely sensibly priced is a VESA mount... Apple really know their stuff... and a 6K monitor that I can buy an 8K equivalent for cheaper just shopping on Amazon.

    The cheesegrater PC is about the only thing that looks different to being just a box, and that's not a good thing.

    Everything else... all that software stuff... long overdue and not gonna help against prices like that.

    Hopefully this is the beginning of the end. There's a reason that professionals are steering clear.

    If you work in a company where they think they can justify this kind of expense... sack your IT guy and find another company.

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      You might be able to buy a cheaper monitor that is equivilent *for your purposes*, but some professionals will value the colour accuracy and dynamic range - and thus will wait for tests from Displaymate.com and other independents.

      1. gnasher729 Silver badge

        Quite simply, you can buy a 4k monitor for £350, a 5k monitor for £1200, and now a 6k monitor for lots of money. It's up to you. I've got 5k which is very nice (and not that expensive if you buy it with a built-in iMac). I'm sure you can attach four 5k monitors.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Some professionals also overestimate colour accuracy as well (not saying there isn't a place for it in some very niche markets...). It becomes a bit like oxygen free directional cable.

        I have seen colour accuracy testing where the final product had CMYK print and was compared to a new pantone strip under a magnifying glass and rejected. I've also spent hours setting up colour profiles using a laborious process on old Macs 10 years ago trying obsessively to match the scanner with the Mac, with the Chromalin proofs with the final production printer. It really didn't make much tangible difference as there were still so many variables and the biggest impact was the printers themselves self adjusting on their proof runs.

        Noticeable colour differences can look a bit off for sure but for printed runs then I can say that there was never any real difference between someone using a cheaper factory calibrated monitor to someone using a calibrated high-end monitor. The results are looked at through different eyes, under different light at different times of the day - all of which have more impact.

        So if you want to colour grade for display screen use, then unless all of your audience also has the same $5k monitor then they will all see it slightly differently any way. There could be some advantage for a photographer who will be printing out and displaying in a gallery where they can adjust to the gallery lighting, or for professional fields where colour differentiation can be key to understanding the data in front of you.

        I'd agree that a good dynamic range (where also supported by the others parts of the system) is more useful, but even there you can easily exceed the limits of the human eye.

        1. Kristian Walsh

          For a cinema feature, the audience will indeed have a DCI-P3 calibrated display, but that's pretty much the only use-case. It's also an easy pipeline: capture in RGB, process in RGB, proof in RGB, reproduce in RGB. Even then, variations in exhibition equipment mean it's back to "pretty much the same colour", but at least you started at an agreed standard,

          For any kind of print work, though, I absolutely agree: so much changes at each stage, and even across a print run, that you're really only going to get "same colour within reason". The switch from additive (RGB) to subtractive (CMYK) colour spaces means there's no substitute for proofs. (I used to do a small amount of print design... I'm glad I don't do it anymore)

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "means there's no substitute for proofs"

            Sure - but there's a big difference between working from a reasonable starting (and reproducible) point and tweak it as desired, and trying to achieve some results randomly, and starting again from scratch for every image. Inks and papers does cost - reducing the number of required proofs saves time and money. Actual devices are quite stable across "runs" - and can be anyway calibrated when something changes - unless for some reason to contain cost you use cheap materials with large variations across batches, and don't compensate for that.

            BTW: some movies are still shot on film.... the pipeline may not be a simple DCI-P3 one.

        2. defiler Silver badge

          unless all of your audience also has the same $5k monitor then they will all see it slightly differently any way

          Back in a past life I developed a few websites. You know, back when hooking up to a database at the back end was new and whizzy, and nobody realised you could get admin access on NT4 with an IIS buffer overrun...

          Anyway, I showed the current work-in-progress to the client's marketing manager, who complained that their brand logo (on a scabby, cheap, uncalibrated CRT) didn't match the colour of the Pantone chart she held up against it.

          She wasn't thrilled when I "fixed" that by banging the brightness up. :)

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "CMYK print and was compared to a new pantone strip under a magnifying glass and rejected"

          Quite obviously you can't compare an half-tone CMYK print to a spot-color sample under a lens - which will show more of the dots pattern.

          People who need high matching to a given Pantone color will use a specific channel, film and the corresponding specific ink. Also, there's a reason why all high-end photo inkjet printers use far more than four colors only.

          "I've also spent hours setting up colour profiles using a laborious process"

          Maybe you got it wrong?

          "There was never any real difference between someone using a cheaper factory calibrated monitor to someone using a calibrated high-end monitor."

          The fact you can't see them doesn't mean they don't exist and aren't easily detectable to a trained eye. I worked on a project for a museum, and the curators and researchers there have highly trained eyes and can easily spot whatever is wrong.

          Sure, your eBay/Amazon item photo doesn't need to reach the level of a museum image.

          "The results are looked at through different eyes, under different light [...]"

          Which is no excuse for sloppy prints hoping they could look acceptable to someone somewhere...

          "so if you want to colour grade for display screen use, then unless all of your audience also has the same $5k monitor"

          They do color grading for the movie theatre projectors that have far better characteristics than your PC monitor.

          Anyway a well done job will degrade less on less capable displays. A bad done one, will look ugly far quicker...

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        A pro monitor from BenQ, Eizo etc. will still probably cost less and deliver better performance - while offering specific features for graphic artists, photographers, and video editors.

        Still, reference monitors for pro color grading will cost far more than this.

    2. hmv Bronze badge

      Top end spec is apparently approaching $50,000. That's not unreasonable compared with similar systems from Dell or HP. The high cost of the base model is an indication you shouldn't buy the base model - unless you're going to upgrade it with third-party components.

      Firing your IT guy for recommending this system where it is appropriate, is an indication of idiocy. And there _are_ situations where it is appropriate.

      And no, I'm not considering buying one. But I do like the handles.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "If you work in a company where they think they can justify this kind of expense... sack your IT guy and find another company."

      At previous design shops I've done work for, the top of the line models often gave 50% plus reductions in rendering times and hence freed up expensive creatives time.

      The CPU appears to be non-standard from what I can tell - the cache is about twice the size of similar 28 core units and there's a lot of IO compared to other workstations that are available once its maxed out so I suspect Intel have crammed two dies into one socket.

      If you rely on a Mac-based workflow, it may pay for itself. Writing off the product due to a lack of knowledge or firing talented people due to your lack of knowledge tends to reflect badly on a manager...

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        At previous design shops I've done work for, the top of the line models often gave 50% plus reductions in rendering times and hence freed up expensive creatives time.

        Do "creatives" kick off a render and then sit and wait for it to finish? Or do they do other work while the render process does its stuff?

        I'm just interested to know. I know developers that kick of software builds jobs that take hours and they drink coffee and read The Register while they wait for it to finish.

        Errm, I think I should be working myself. See you later.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "Do "creatives" kick off a render and then sit and wait for it to finish? Or do they do other work while the render process does its stuff?"

          In general, no. The work would usually be done on either in-house render farms or third-party/cloud render farms, but all of this required a little planning/scheduling to get work done, particularly when busy and licences needed to be managed carefully.

          However, if clients are coming in to review the work or a "small change of direction" is required, it was not unusual to run short jobs on local machines. Often, being able to quickly adjust something and show the client would make them realise why they were wrong and allow the work to be signed off in time for a few drinks versus making changes for the client to review later which often involved multiple revisions.

  12. Charlie Clark Silver badge
    FAIL

    Just more catchup

    IOS gets darkmode in the autumn? When did they release their first phones with OLED screens?

    At this rate IOS will soon just be a customised version of Android.

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: Just more catchup

      Dark mode isn't available across all Android versions yet, either. There have been attempts by OEMs such as Samsung to implement dark mode across their skinned Androids untill Google catch up.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Just more catchup

        Dark mode for Android debuted with Material Design and I've been using it ever since. It doesn't make sense for all phones or all apps but it has been around for a good few years. As for IOS: it's just been announced.

  13. SVV Silver badge

    Grand stand

    not very sporting behaviour in my view!

    1. Korev Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: Grand stand

      Nope, they should stand up for the profit margins...

  14. Hans 1 Silver badge
    FAIL

    It is 2019

    and $6000 buys you a computer with 256GB of SSD storage.

  15. AIBailey Silver badge
    FAIL

    I see that Job's promise to "destroy" Android is still playing the long game.

    iOS finally gets support for USB mice? Android had that licked years ago.

  16. AIBailey Silver badge
    WTF?

    ...and as for the watch...

    There's also a new watchOS Noise app to alert watch users to excessive ambient noise

    Have Apple users got to a point where they need a device to tell them about ambient noise?

    I've had something that does that for my entire lifetime. They're called "ears".

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: ...and as for the watch...

      Ears, like eyes, are very good, so good that they auto adjust to an extent. Sometimes you don't notice how loud a noise is until it has stopped. Walking away from a nightclub with ringing ears wasn't an uncommon experience ( untill noise limiting systems became mandatory).

      I'm not saying a watch app is the solution, but it isn't true that our ears reliably tell us when noise is too loud.

    3. Alien8n Silver badge

      Re: ...and as for the watch...

      I spend pretty much every weekend in front of speakers, I do concert photography. Knowing how loud the ambient noise level is is damn useful as I need to know which earplugs are best at lowering the noise without removing it completely. The earplugs I use come with 3 different inner plugs, 20dB, 15dB, and 10dB. You watch the people in the crowd and most won't be wearing plugs, and probably won't know how much damage they're doing until it's too late.

  17. Aladdin Sane Silver badge
    Coat

    Will the new Mac Pro make Apple grate again?

    1. BebopWeBop Silver badge

      Well on a much deferred related note, I am partial to a grated apple and cheese (mixed with mayonnaise) sandwich......

      1. Tom 7 Silver badge

        So that's how people eat American cheese - drown out its flavour!

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Mac houses wont care but...

    ... Quick and dirty pricing up on Dell for a Precision 7920 for equivalent spec is around £2k less, but with a hugely more expandable machine - that supports up to 3tb ram, dual 20 core Xeon CPUs, and significantly more options for storage.

    OK the ram is 2666 ECC rather than 2993, and the GPU is a Radeon Pro rather than a consumer leel one.

    (if you spec it it, the ram alone costs £62k!)

    £4838 ex 20% VAT - - and that incudes 3yr onsite warranty - Apple always charge exra for a return to base warranty.

    But the pure Apple houses wont care - the £2k + premium and "limited" expandability (relatively speaking) will not put them off. THe pretty cheese grater and MacOS will be more important.

    Another thing:

    An interesting fact is that while Apple gloat about the spread of their OS compared to Android -

    1. Google untied their apps, launcher, search, assistant and some APIs fromt he OS some time ago - therefore you don't need Android 9 to get the latest Play store, or Photos app, let alone Gmail app or Keep. E.G. ARCore does not require the latest OS to provide the latest features! Each are indipendently updated fromthe Play store..

    2. Apple tie their Mail, Notes, Reminders, ARKit, Siri, keyboard, "launcher" and search functionaity directly to the OS version. Therfore, if you want to get better functionality within your Apple APps, you have to upgrade the OS.

    On the flipside, the update process on the Apple devices is dead easy - and you pretty mch have no choice as it bugs you to do so repeatedly. Android devices do no such thing.

    Personally, I'd rather have the faster pace of updates that Android affortds, and the usomisation itallows, than the rigid approach from Apple.

    1. Rainer

      Re: Mac houses wont care but...

      Yes, everybody knows about the Play-Store unbundling.

      But AFAIK, this does nothing for most actual Android vulnerabilities - of which Android has plenty.

      Apple's iOS Updates and Upgrades kill those, too.

      If your device contains all your mails, credit-card data, health-data, pictures, text and god knows what else - maybe some people will want to play it safe there?

      I certainly do.

      1. Tom 7 Silver badge

        Re: Mac houses wont care but...

        If I wanted a computer to do some work on it I wouldnt put fucking android anywhere near it.

        1. Tom 7 Silver badge

          Re: Mac houses wont care but...

          I should have added "and it uses more bandwidth updating itself than I do using it".

          My work computer would be doing about 50GB a day updating all the software on it,

      2. sw guy

        Re: Mac houses wont care but...

        Usual confusion regarding Android world: OS upgrades and security updates are decorrelated.

        I still get the latter for my current, old, androphone, with Android 5, which, BTW, never encountered an application failing to install due to too old system version (though this may be because, for instance, so called social networks are not my things, except WhatsApp).

        You can safely say Android world has an issue with security updates, but it all depends on vendors policy for that matter.

      3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: Mac houses wont care but...

        Apple's iOS Updates and Upgrades kill those, too.

        Apple's record on security updates is woeful as it relies heavily on known issues from being disclosed: updates are often months after reports have been submitted.

        With Android Google has moved from the state of requiring manufacturers and sometimes networks to push updates to a much more discrete process that allows security updates at least to be pushed out to all compatible devices quickly. There are limitations and caveats but in this respect Google has learned and improved.

    2. Dedobot

      Re: Mac houses wont care but...

      2993mhz ram only with the 28 cores cpu of course, 30k+ config. Xeon scalable platinium top of the line. Intels oem price is a 10k. Don't get fooled from adds slogans.

  19. Freddellmeister

    Error in article, no PCIe4 slots here?

    I think there is an error in your article, I could not find any PCIe4 slots here?

    My laptop has 2xNVMe and a SATA slot. Desktop with a single proprietary NVMe?

    Announcement devoid of any revolutionary tech, Think PCIe gen4, faster GPU attach..

    1. David Shaw

      Re: Error in article, no PCIe4 slots here?

      I was following closely the words that Apple said about PCI on their expensive 28 core apple cheesegrater, - whilst I was about to invest in a Ryzen PCIe4.0 capable PC mobo, but yesterday I noticed that PCIe 5.0 is stable and being readied for widespread launch in 2019.

      looking at https://blocksandfiles.com/2019/05/30/pcie-5-released/ with PCIe 5 being quadruply faster than PCIe 4.0, I think I will skip PCIe 4 entirely and go for the much faster solution (making do with a bios upgraded PCIe 3.0 mobo with the short tracks PCIe4 enabled, for a while)

      Apple *might* be being very clever, and have implemented PCIe 5, but aren't talking about it, or perhaps they simply want to start reselling Xeons to gullible videographers before the wave of AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3000 Series (Castle Peak) high end desktop chips, with 64 cores apple, and 128 threads apple, are released.

      I do have the last alu apple cheesegrater, still chugging away on hexacore xeon 3.33GHz but I think I will be able to build my own DIY pc to run way faster than that 'new' 28 core Xeon (something related to Intel Xeon W-3175X?) will evolve [note: that Intel Xeon W-3175X is PCIe 3.0)

      remember rule 1 of shiny apple purchasing, never buy any new product until at least revision 1.1, or better v.1.2

  20. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

    "Cupertino idiot tax"

    F*ck right off.

    I was looking forward to reading this article, then you ruined it by being a petulant child. I'll go read it on ars technica instead.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

      It's only offensive to idiots.

    2. Anonymous Cowtard

      Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

      You must be new here. F**k right back to Ars Technica, there's nothing for you here.

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

        I've been here a long time, Anonymous. Read my post history. 'Cupertino Idiot Tax' is a personal pet hate; it's inaccurate and lazy journalism, and it's offensive to everybody who's done due diligence and decided that Apple offers solid ROI; which is a LOT of businesses from SMBs right up to megacorps like IBM who wouldn't spend a single cent if there wasn't a massive ROI on it. As well as millions of individuals who have decided Apple is right for them.

        So... yeah. Back in your box.

        1. Anonymous Cowtard

          Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

          I'll come back out of my box, I posted that comment.

          I'm not arguing about any ROI considerations or anybody's freedom to choose Apple gear.

          What I'm talking about is your choice to read or to not read an article on a site which is absolutely devoted to irreverence towards tech giants. When I read an article on El Reg about Apple's new hardware I would expect flippant references to their very wide profit margins. If the phrase "Cupertino idiot tax" didn't appear I would feel cheated. The same is true of other manufacturers and software giants, you'll find many El Reg short phrases regarding their shortcomings whether perceived or real, historic or recent.

          We all have our allegiances/preferences/biases towards certain gear providers, it's pointless reading The Register if you're going to be offended by an article bashing something you hold dear.

          Sent from my 2007 iMac, maxxed out running Debian happily.

          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

            Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

            @Anonymous Cowtard

            By all means insult Apple; they’re big enough to take it. Highlight the profit margins too - not a problem. But Cupertino Idiot Tax is an insult to the CUSTOMERS; that only idiots would buy Apple. So yes, I take that personally. And so should you, on your maxed-out 2007 MacBook - because according to this article’s author, you’re an idiot too.

            1. Anonymous Cowtard
              Happy

              Re: "because according to this article’s author, you’re an idiot too."

              I'm not denying I'm an idiot but that isn't due to my daily use of a 12 year old iMac which was given to me in lieu of services rendered, replacing a 9 year old self-assembled PC. My work laptops are a Puri.sm Librem and a Thinkpad.

              Life is too good to be wasting money on the latest tech just because it's shiny and new. A great majority of people buying this kit won't be doing so because they've diligently calculated an ROI. I have in my family 3 Apple devotees, 2 own >£1k iPhones which are likely to be replaced in 2 years. I personally could not justify such an outlay and I think they are both idiots for paying out so much for a web browsing / navigation / social media/ telephony device. But hey, I guess we're all free to be idiots in our own way, and I applaud The Register for insulting anybody they wish.

              1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                Re: "because according to this article’s author, you’re an idiot too."

                "Life is too good to be wasting money on the latest tech just because it's shiny and new."

                Your iMac is still going strong after 12 years? Wow; and you wouldn't call that exceptional ROI? Most desktop systems are disposable after 3 years, so your iMac could be 4x more expensive and you'd still be better off. And if you think Apple systems cost 4x as much for equivalent hardware, you're deluded. The Apple Tax myth has been fully debunked.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: "because according to this article’s author, you’re an idiot too."

                  "Most desktop systems are disposable after 3 years"

                  What a load of rubbish. In fact, and this is genuine, the only desktop computer I had to dispose of in my organisation prematurely was an iMac which had overheating issues leading to failure of the motherboard. Unfortunately this meant losing the machine and the monitor as it was all in one.

                  Never had to dispose of a PC after 3 years.

                  1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                    Re: "because according to this article’s author, you’re an idiot too."

                    ”What a load of rubbish. In fact, and this is genuine, the only desktop computer I had to dispose of in my organisation prematurely was an iMac which had overheating issues leading to failure of the motherboard. Unfortunately this meant losing the machine and the monitor as it was all in one.

                    Never had to dispose of a PC after 3 years.“

                    Fair enough. We used to have a corporate refresh programme which replaced systems after 3 years, but times have moved on and systems now probably have a longer life. Also desktops tend to last longer than laptops because they’re more upgradeable.

                    1. OtotheJ

                      Re: "because according to this article’s author, you’re an idiot too."

                      Most corporates have a 3 year refresh cycle because that's how long the warranty lasts. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's no longer fit for purpose. I have a bunch of laptops >5 years old still in production use. It's also trivial and inexpensive to upgrade memory and hard disk to extend their lives and improve performance.

                      On the other hand, I have a shelf of <5 year old iMacs which can't be used because they're under-specced for today's software and not economically upgradeable.

                      Yes, I've done my ROI sums, time and time again, Mac never comes out as the winner.

                      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                        Re: "because according to this article’s author, you’re an idiot too."

                        "Most corporates have a 3 year refresh cycle because that's how long the warranty lasts. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's no longer fit for purpose."

                        True, but if that 3-year refresh cycle could be extended to 5 years (which manufacturers will offer if the hardware is reliable enough) then the company could (and does) save a pantload.

                        "On the other hand, I have a shelf of <5 year old iMacs which can't be used because they're under-specced for today's software and not economically upgradeable."

                        If they're less than 5 years old and already underspecced and needing upgrades, then you either cheaped out on the initial purchasing decision (4GB should be enough, right?) or you have a non-typical use case with very high demands - in which case the iMac probably wasn't the right tool for the job.

                2. Dan 55 Silver badge

                  Re: "because according to this article’s author, you’re an idiot too."

                  Your iMac is still going strong after 12 years? Wow; and you wouldn't call that exceptional ROI?

                  It's only the old iMacs which can do this, my mid-2007 iMac has new memory, hard drive (SSD), WiFi, Bluetooth, CPU, and GPU. Now find me a new iMac which a) can do this or b) can even last 5 years without e.g. the dust getting trapped behind the sealed screen.

            2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

              Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

              I own a Mac (but no I-Phone) but have no problem with the term. If you consider there is value in the proposition then you should be able to laugh with us. If, on the other hand, you do feel that some of the stuff you bought is more than a little overpriced… then could it be that it's too close to home?

              1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                @Charlie Clark

                ”If you consider there is value in the proposition then you should be able to laugh with us.“

                Us? If you own an iMac he’s calling YOU an idiot too. If you don’t mind that then that’s fine, personally I do mind, and take every opportunity when this twaddle is published to tell the author what I think.

                1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                  Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                  Actually, I have a MacBook Pro (2015). When I bought it a couple of years ago I was annoyed at its lack of upgradeability (disk, RAM) but, all things considered, I found it competitively priced for the performance/weight/usability when compared with similarly specc'd machines. I didn't think so of the more recent models and I don't think so about the consumer stuff, which is why I don't own any of it. But each to their own.

                  The "idiot tax" moniker has always been tongue-in-cheek. Wouldn't suprise me if most of the Reg's writers use Apple products.

                  Interestingly, I also have a t-shirt that says "I'm surrounded by idiots". I wonder if you'd be one of the few people who takes offence at it.

        2. BigSLitleP Silver badge

          Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

          "it's inaccurate"

          ....

          It's pretty accurate. $1000 for a monitor stand. Case closed.

          Apple always overcharges for their under-specced kit. It offers no better ROI than any of the big boys of hardware. You pay extra for an over designed piece of art if you buy Apple kit. THAT, is Cupertino Idiot Tax. If you want to use their software, which i would say is often very good, then you are better off buying second hand or reconditioned Apple kit. Buying Apple kit brand new? C.I.T.

          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

            Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

            @BigSLitleP

            Cisco, IBM, SAP, British Airways, AXA, all these have years-long enterprise partnerships with Apple based on ROI. These companies don't move unless there's a serious financial motive to do so.

            You're a small-scale thinker who think they're paying extra for a pretty case; in which case go buy a plastic Dell PoS and enjoy your crappy experience. Apple's ROI model has next to nothing to do with this; it's to do with reduced maintenance costs, fewer support calls due to user self-service and easier to administer software, together with hardware reliability and enterprise integration.

            I used to get a new work laptop every 3 years; and at the end I was desperate for a new one. Slowdowns, bloat, CRAZY updates, inconsistent corporate imaging and quality issues meant that it was miserable to work on. I've been on my 2012 Macbook Pro for the last 7 years, still fully supported, never a single defect, and showing no signs of slowing down (I put an SSD in 2 years ago). Buying it was a purely functional decision - and it's been a fantastic ROI.

            1. BigSLitleP Silver badge

              Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

              It's a bad look to be throwing insults about people and how they work when you know nothing about them.

              For the past 8 years, i've been using the same Dell XPS laptop. I've only replaced it this year and am pretty sure i'll have the same piece of kit for a looooong time. I'll bet I paid less for it than you paid for your Macbook Pro.

              "Slowdowns, bloat, CRAZY updates, inconsistent corporate imaging" - This has nothing to do with the kit but all down to shoddy IT practices. Maybe talk to a professional?

              " and showing no signs of slowing down (I put an SSD in 2 years ago)" - So you had to upgrade and reimage your laptop in order to get rid of the slowdown, bloat and updates? Huh.

              "Buying it was a purely functional decision - and it's been a fantastic ROI." - My Dell beat you on this too.

              Bitter, bitter fan boys.......

              1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                ”For the past 8 years, i've been using the same Dell XPS laptop. I've only replaced it this year and am pretty sure i'll have the same piece of kit for a looooong time. I'll bet I paid less for it than you paid for your Macbook Pro.”

                Dell XPS? No you didn’t pay less for it; they’re nigh on identical to MacBooks in terms of pricing.

                "Slowdowns, bloat, CRAZY updates, inconsistent corporate imaging" - This has nothing to do with the kit but all down to shoddy IT practices. Maybe talk to a professional?”

                Not shoddy, just doing the best with what they had available. Windows just didn’t offer the enterprise MDM tools that Mac OS did, meaning in a company the size of the one I worked for, there was just no other option on Windows. Hence the move to Apple.

                ”and showing no signs of slowing down (I put an SSD in 2 years ago)" - So you had to upgrade and reimage your laptop in order to get rid of the slowdown, bloat and updates? Huh.”

                Nope didn’t have to - it was working as well as the day I bought it. Just fancied a bit more speed and when I started travelling more I didn’t want to risk a disk crash.

                "Buying it was a purely functional decision - and it's been a fantastic ROI." - My Dell beat you on this too.”

                Yeah no it didn’t.

                ”Bitter, bitter fan boys.......“

                Fan of not spending more than I have to, absolutely. Bitter? Why would I be, I made a winning decision.

                1. BigSLitleP Silver badge

                  Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                  "Dell XPS? No you didn’t pay less for it; they’re nigh on identical to MacBooks in terms of pricing." - They are now but 8 years ago they cost about half the price of your shiny toy.

                  "Not shoddy, just doing the best with what they had available" - They/You might have been doing the best they could but other people can obviously do it better.

                  "Nope didn’t have to - it was working as well as the day I bought it. Just fancied a bit more speed" - .... I can lead you to water, but i can't make you think.

                  "Yeah no it didn’t." - half the cost, plus no costly SDD upgrade, plus lasted longer. Do you understand ROI? My Dell plus my current rig wouldn't cost the same as your Macbook and my current rig blows your 2012 to bits.

                  Some of us have worked for the big names. Apple's OS is great and their software is fantastic but comparing their hardware to others at similar prices is just cloud cuckoo land. Either the OS costs $1500 or you are being ripped off for hardware. It's hard to admit when you've made a mistake or are being taken for a ride but there is a reason the term "Cupertino Idiot Tax" exists.

                  1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                    Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                    ”8 years ago they cost about half the price of your shiny toy.“

                    Dell XPS 15” (2012): $1659.

                    MacBook Pro 15 core i7 (2012): $1799.

                    Oops. Pick a new argument; your predjudice is showing with this one.

                    1. BGatez Bronze badge

                      Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                      Updateable RAM and drive? Mac = 0

                      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                        Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                        ”Updateable RAM and drive? Mac = 0“

                        Microsoft Surface, Dell XPS, Thinkpad Carbon... the competition are all going that way. Apple are just ahead of the curve...

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                  "Not shoddy, just doing the best with what they had available. Windows just didn’t offer the enterprise MDM tools that Mac OS did, meaning in a company the size of the one I worked for, there was just no other option on Windows. Hence the move to Apple."

                  I don't believe this one bit. Clearly you have never worked at such a company and have never had experience of managing a Windows, a Windows/Apple mix and an Apple only network.

                  I am no fan of Microsoft by any means, in fact I really dislike them, however the idea that Macs are easier to use in an enterprise environment shows how clueless you are. No serious IT department running a network of Windows machines is likely to say - this is too difficult, lets replace them all with MACs and an Apple network, despite how much Microsoft inevitably annoys them.

                  1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                    Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                    I worked for IBM. I’ve also worked for a large petrochemical co (80,000 people) and a consulting company (200k+). All three had the same issues with building and managing system images on Windows. If you didn’t experience this, good for you; doesn’t mean it wasn’t endemic on Windows platforms in large companies.

                    Don’t forget to wipe the rabid spittle flecks from your chin...

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                      "Don’t forget to wipe the rabid spittle flecks from your chin..."

                      Wow, you get offended by a journalist using a term like "Cupertino idiot tax" but you're fine with using insults and ad-hominem attacks on others?

                      What you say does not ring true. How could anyone have difficulty with windows system images? There are so many choices of tools to manage these in any way you want. On top of that the directory services, croup polices, third party deployment tools are a lot more mature and easier to use than anything that Macs have. Hence to replace PCs with MACs for manageability doesn't make any sense. It may well be that IBM let employees choose a laptop for their use and these generally connected remotely and not permanently networked but I still don't believe they changed their whole network of PCs out for Macs due to not being able to manage them? Unsure about your unnamed 'large petro chem' or unnamed 'consulting company'.

                      But for all three having the same issue with "building and managing system images", give me a break. The only constant would seem to be you, in which case was it you that had an issue with "with building and managing system images" by any chance?

                      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                        Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                        "Wow, you get offended by a journalist using a term like "Cupertino idiot tax" but you're fine with using insults and ad-hominem attacks on others?"

                        Yes because you started it ("Clearly you have never worked at such a company...shows how clueless you are... etc") And ad hominem doesn't mean what you think it means.

                        "What you say does not ring true. How could anyone have difficulty with windows system images?"

                        It's not Windows system images that's the problem - it's corporate images which bundled together software for a number of roles. These images ran like an absolute dog because at any given time, there were a whole load of processes loaded into memory that the average user would never need. Many big companies had this issue in the early naughties.

                        "Hence to replace PCs with MACs for manageability doesn't make any sense. "

                        It makes a lot of sense, which is why a number of large companies have done it. See https://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-cheaper-to-own-than-windows-2016-10, amongst others.

                        "but I still don't believe they changed their whole network of PCs out for Macs due to not being able to manage them?"

                        It's a fact, and an open case study. Believe it or not, I don't care. The unnamed petrochem and consulting company are still my clients, hence why I'm not naming.

                        "The only constant would seem to be you, in which case was it you that had an issue with "with building and managing system images" by any chance?"

                        No, I've never been involved in building or managing system images. Just a user.

                        Any other assumptions you'd like to make?

                        1. Stretchoman

                          Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                          "No, I've never been involved in building or managing system images. Just a user."

                          Oh I see so you have no idea how a large scale network works especially when mixing different manufacturers of workstations? Got it, thanks for finally admitting you have no clue what you're talking about.

                          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                            Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                            "Oh I see so you have no idea how a large scale network works especially when mixing different manufacturers of workstations? Got it, thanks for finally admitting you have no clue what you're talking about."

                            I never claimed to know how networks work - I have people for that. I care about ROI - which if you'd bothered to engage brain before opening mouth, would have been clear to you. The message is simple: (1) buying Apple (whether as a business or as an individual) can provide exceptional ROI, as a number of properly large organisations can testify; and (2) this flies in the face of people who look at the purchase price and immediately burn anybody who buys it as an idiot.

                            As regards the rest of your passive aggressive nonsense post, I can give you a two word answer involving sex and travel.

                            1. Stretchoman

                              Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                              But you have already said that replacing PCs with Macs on a large scale makes sense for businesses, but you have no idea how that works, so stop acting like you do. You talk about ROI but that's very subjective to what the user wants out of the system, with both business and personal cases.

                              What is it that flies in the face of those people? Judging by the market share of PC vs Mac users, there hasn't been much of a landslide in Mac users and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon especially with the obscene price tags that have been shown to us a few days ago.

                  2. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                    Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                    "No serious IT department running a network of Windows machines is likely to say - this is too difficult, lets replace them all with MACs and an Apple network, despite how much Microsoft inevitably annoys them."

                    You mean apart from IBM, who replaced 400,000 Lenovo and Toshiba laptops and 85,000 Nokia cellphones with MacBook and iPhone?

            2. Tim Almond

              Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

              "Cisco, IBM, SAP, British Airways, AXA, all these have years-long enterprise partnerships with Apple based on ROI. These companies don't move unless there's a serious financial motive to do so."

              Really? How much of British Airways or AXA desktop/laptop estate is running on Macs?

              I work in a lot of different places as a freelancer. Banks, manufacturing companies, local authorities, telcos, software companies,marketing companies, estate agencies, MoD. Almost no-one uses Macs. The new media company I worked in had about 60% Mac, because designers pretty much insist on it.

              In most companies they have one or two Macs and that's simply for website testing. Do the website changes look fine on Safari on Mac?

              Macs are really not good ROI. They're like owning a VW Beetle instead of a VW Golf. Essentially, the same guts. You just pay more because a Beetle looks cute.

              1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                "Macs are really not good ROI."

                Tell it to IBM, Cisco and SAP. Hundreds of millions of dollars ROI.

                "How much of British Airways or AXA desktop/laptop estate is running on Macs?"

                BA and AXA use iPad throughout the client-facing side of the organisation, as well as backend integration services and MDM. You're assuming Apple starts and finishes with desktops and laptops.

                "In most companies they have one or two Macs"

                And that's your considered, evidence based opinion? See the difference between you and me, is that I actually know what I'm talking about.

                1. Tim Almond

                  Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                  Go for it. Tell me about the large companies that have lots of macs in their desktop estate.

                  1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                    Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                    ”Go for it. Tell me about the large companies that have lots of macs in their desktop estate.“

                    IBM, Cisco and SAP. And Apple.

        3. ST Silver badge
          Mushroom

          Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

          > 'Cupertino Idiot Tax' is a personal pet hate;

          No. It's a clear and concise statement of fact.

          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

            Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

            ”No. It's a clear and concise statement of fact.“

            Facts require a preponderance of evidence. And I’m afraid the preponderance is against you here; regardless of how much you wish the opposite was true.

            1. BigSLitleP Silver badge

              Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

              $1000 dollar monitor stand. Fact presented and acknowledged. C.I.T. exists.

              1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                @BigSLitleP

                "$1000 dollar monitor stand. Fact presented and acknowledged. C.I.T. exists."

                On the face of it I'd agree with you, but we don't know what it's capabilities are yet. It's possible it's worth the money; who knows. My brother used to fit AV equipment and he said some of the mounts for big plasma screens used to cost thousands, so it's possible.

                And you know the great thing? If it's just a bog standard screen mount then nobody will buy it and it'll be withdrawn from sale. That's the beauty of capitalism.

                1. defiler Silver badge

                  Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                  On the face of it I'd agree with you, but we don't know what it's capabilities are yet. It's possible it's worth the money; who knows. My brother used to fit AV equipment and he said some of the mounts for big plasma screens used to cost thousands, so it's possible.

                  It had better fly for that money. With wings. Silently.

                  However, for what it's worth, I bought a plasma screen for home when the mounts were that sort of money. Panasonic wanted >£900 for a flat-against-the-wall screen. I got a Barco one for £220 I think. And it was well-enough built that I could have hung ten of those tellies on it.

                  Just because it's that price doesn't mean it's worth that price. I have no great beef about Apple generally - I don't use their kit because I feel it doesn't justify the cost in general, but I accept that some people want to pay extra for "pretty". I accept that Apple are generally simpler to use than the alternatives, but that they're a pig when they don't "just work". I also think that the price of their top-end kit is outrageous. The word "veblen" springs to mind.

                  And in all the offices I've been in (from 2 users to 2500 users) I've seen more OS/2 machines than Macs.

                  1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                    Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                    ”Just because it's that price doesn't mean it's worth that price.“

                    It’s worth it when people pay it. The equation really is that simple.

                    1. Stretchoman

                      Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                      If everyone around me was paying £100 for 100 grams of feces, that doesn't make it worth the price. You're clearly too swayed by "what everyone else is doing".

                      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                        Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                        "If everyone around me was paying £100 for 100 grams of feces, that doesn't make it worth the price."

                        That's literally what it means. Capitalism 101.

                        1. Stretchoman

                          Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                          Glad to hear you're buying products because the people around you are buying them.

                          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                            Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                            You really don't know how to read, do you?

                            1. Stretchoman

                              Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                              You've literally just said that items are worth their price JUST because people buy them, that's not how value works, which is ironic coming from someone who mentions ROI on 1 in every 3 posts.

                              1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                                Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                                First up, you wrote: 'Glad to hear you're buying products because the people around you are buying them.'. No, I make my own buying decisions based on how valuable a given product is to me.

                                Second, you wrote that 'items are worth their price JUST because people buy them...'. If enough people buy a product to make it commercially viable for the seller, then this statement is absolutely accurate.

                                If I produce a product which COSTS $10 to make, but what it DOES FOR THE CLIENT ("value") is so revolutionary that they are prepared to pay $1000 for it, then it is "Worth" $1000 to that client, not $10. If enough customers buy it that it is viable for the seller, then one can say it is "Worth" the money in general - not just client-specific - terms.

                                How this links to ROI: When a customer says ""I will pay $1000 for this", regardless of it's cost to manufacture, what they are saying is that they believe they will get at least $1000 worth of value from it; in terms of increased revenue, reduced costs, or improved productivity/efficiency. This is the ROI of the product.*

                                In business terms, like the IBM case study I referenced a couple of times, the purchasing organisation saw that a $1500 MacBook would provide better ROI (in the form of increased productivity and reduced ongoing costs/maintenance/integration) than a $800 Wintel system which would have higher ongoing costs, be more difficult to use and manage, and ultimately cost more. They believed this so strongly that they converted the entire 400,000 person workforce over to Apple (Mac, iPhone, iPad, internal App Store & backend services). That's the ROI component in action.

                                * Intangible value components such as how a product makes you feel are quantified under VOI - Value on Investment.

                                1. Stretchoman

                                  Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                                  "First up, you wrote: 'Glad to hear you're buying products because the people around you are buying them.'. No, I make my own buying decisions based on how valuable a given product is to me."

                                  That was written because you suggested that you would buy 100 grams of feces for £100 if everyone else was doing it.

                                  "Second, you wrote that 'items are worth their price JUST because people buy them...'. If enough people buy a product to make it commercially viable for the seller, then this statement is absolutely accurate."

                                  We aren't talking about being commercially viable to the seller, we're talking about how valuable it is as a consumer, and many people buying a certain product, does not guarantee it's worth to every single buyer. In-fact, it has absolutely no correlation to value, as we have already discussed. I feel like I'm missing something, can you please confirm whether or not you believe that people buying a product makes it worth the cost? In my opinion, it only confirms that people believe it is (at least before buying), but doesn't guarantee that the product is ACTUALLY worth it.

                                  I understand how ROI works, thanks for the explanation none-the-less, it at least gave me a few more angles I'd not considered before.

                                  1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                                    Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                                    "That was written because you suggested that you would buy 100 grams of feces for £100 if everyone else was doing it."

                                    No I didn't.

                                    We aren't talking about being commercially viable to the seller, we're talking about how valuable it is as a consumer, and many people buying a certain product, does not guarantee it's worth to every single buyer. In-fact, it has absolutely no correlation to value, as we have already discussed.

                                    You're introducing the concept of value to every single buyer, which is not what I wrote; every buyer has different value criteria and what a given product is 'worth' to one individual may not be the same as what it's 'worth' to another.

                                    I feel like I'm missing something, can you please confirm whether or not you believe that people buying a product makes it worth the cost? In my opinion, it only confirms that people believe it is (at least before buying), but doesn't guarantee that the product is ACTUALLY worth it.

                                    No it doesn't guarantee it, which is why we generally have the right to return products which don't meet the value criteria we thought they would when we bought it. A product is worth the price when enough people buy and keep it to make manufacture viable - obviously if they buy it and return it, then all bets are off. In a regulated market (e.g. with the right to return defective or unsatisfactory product), this 'buy and keep' is generally understood as 'the price the market will bear'.

                                    People buying the product means the manufacturer has correctly judged how much a given product with given features is 'worth' to their target market, but they then need to back this up by actually making the product as good as they said it would be.

                                    In order for a supplier to be successful over time, they must accurately judge what a given product is 'worth' to their target market and price accordingly, AS WELL AS maintain that perception of worth (your Guarantee point) during the product lifetime; in order for customers to (a) not return the product, (b) buy more stuff from them, and (c) recommend them to others. Apple has proven over time that they tend to get these balancing acts right; with a few notable exceptions. The $999 monitor stand may well prove to be one of those exceptions, or it may prove to be 'worth' it to their chosen target market; which doesn't include me. Time will tell.

                                    1. Stretchoman

                                      Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                                      "No I didn't."

                                      You followed it up with "That's literally what it means. Capitalism 101.", suggesting that it's the thing people should be doing. If that isn't what you meant by that, just say that and we can agree 100 grams of shit isn't worth £100.

                                      "You're introducing the concept of value to every single buyer, which is not what I wrote; every buyer has different value criteria and what a given product is 'worth' to one individual may not be the same as what it's 'worth' to another."

                                      Because we're talking about the worth of the product as a whole, it's already been stated that it is subjective to each customer.

                                      "A product is worth the price when enough people buy and keep it to make manufacture viable - obviously if they buy it and return it, then all bets are off."

                                      Exactly, which isn't what you originally said. You just said that if people buy a product, it's worth the charged price.

                                      "In order for a supplier to be successful over time, they must accurately judge what a given product is 'worth' to their target market and price accordingly, AS WELL AS maintain that perception of worth (your Guarantee point) during the product lifetime"

                                      I think that is the key to the success of large corps like Google and Apple. They maintain a level of quality that it becomes the normal for people to pay the prices they do.

                                      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                                        Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                                        You wrote: "If everyone around me was paying £100 for 100 grams of feces, that doesn't make it worth the price."

                                        I replied: "That's literally what it means. Capitalism 101."

                                        Then you wrote: "That was written because you suggested that you would buy 100 grams of feces for £100 if everyone else was doing it."

                                        If everyone is buying feces at £100 for 100 grams, that's what it's clearly worth (because everyone is willing to pay it). It doesn't mean I would buy it. I can appreciate objectively that a classic car might be worth a million dollars because that's what the market is trading at - but I wouldn't buy one.

                                        "A product is worth the price when enough people buy and keep it to make manufacture viable - obviously if they buy it and return it, then all bets are off."

                                        Exactly, which isn't what you originally said. You just said that if people buy a product, it's worth the charged price.

                                        I was trying to understand your viewpoint and clarify the definition of the word 'Buy' (as in: 'bought and not returned'). I now see that this confused the issue. My original statement stands; a product is worth what people will pay for it, no more and no less.

                                        Your last statement "I think that is the key to the success of large corps like Google and Apple. They maintain a level of quality that it becomes the normal for people to pay the prices they do." is absolutely correct.

                    2. defiler Silver badge

                      Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                      It’s worth it when people pay it.

                      I do so hate that phrase, but it doesn't mean that you're wrong, sadly. And some chump (and I'll be happy to call them a chump to their face) will probably blow a grand on that stand. And they'll probably laugh in my face and say they got "work" to pay for it.

                      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                        Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                        FWIW I hate it too - and that’s coming from a sales background. The ultimate extension of this philosophy is diamonds as jewellery - they have precisely zero practical use, and yet people will pay tens of thousands for them. Are they ‘worth’ the money? De Beers’ market valuation would suggest yes; in defiance of all logic.

                        1. defiler Silver badge

                          Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                          Let's be fair to diamonds - they're of great value as cutting surfaces. Think diamond-tipped drills, for example. But you don't exactly need the Hope Diamond to do that. Diamond dust is about where you are for that, and it's cheap.

                          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                            Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                            Agree - hence ‘diamonds as jewellery’.

                            1. defiler Silver badge

                              Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                              Yep. Apologies - my mind filtered that on first read.

            2. ST Silver badge
              Mushroom

              Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

              > And I’m afraid the preponderance is against you here

              The preponderence of evidence is against me blowing $999 on a brushed aluminium monitor stand and then convincing myself that I made a winning decision.

              Those words - the winning decision thing - they are your own words, aren't they?

              May I interest you in a Vertu phone. I'd recommend the alligator foreskin model. If you rub it gently it turns into a tablet.

              1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                ”The preponderence of evidence is against me blowing $999 on a brushed aluminium monitor stand and then convincing myself that I made a winning decision.“

                What gave you the idea that I’ve bought a brushed aluminium monitor stand for $999? I made a winning decision because I bought a MacBook Pro back in 2012 that’s still going strong.

                You win the award for conflating random posts.

                1. ST Silver badge

                  Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                  > [ ... ] I bought a MacBook Pro back in 2012 that’s still going strong.

                  I bought an Asus laptop back in 2012 for less than half the price of your MacBook Pro. Same exact specs as a high-end MacBook Pro. I'm still using it today.

                  1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                    Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                    "I bought an Asus laptop back in 2012 for less than half the price of your MacBook Pro. Same exact specs as a high-end MacBook Pro. I'm still using it today."

                    Hahahahahahaha nope.

                    1. ST Silver badge

                      Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                      > Hahahahahahaha nope.

                      And that's where the Cupertino Idiot Tax term comes from.

                      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                        Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                        What, because you're flat out wrong?

                        Come on then, money where your mouth is. Which Asus model did you buy that had exactly the same specs for half the price? If you can tell me that I'll gladly back down and say you're right.

                        (btw 'exactly the same specs' doesn't mean 'it has a Core i7 therefore it's the same'; it also means graphics, quality of build, quality of screen, webcam, battery life, the whole shebang. Just before you post a model number of a $399 PoS and claim it's the 'same thing'...)

                        1. ST Silver badge

                          Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                          > Which Asus model did you buy then that had exactly the same specs for half the price

                          Asus G75VW.207

                          Core i7-3610QM.

                          32GB RAM.

                          2 SATA HDD slots (RAID1).

                          2 USB3

                          2 USB2

                          1 card reader

                          1 HDMI

                          1 Thunderbolt

                          17.3" Full HD display

                          Paid $1099 at Amazon - Black Friday deal in 2012.

                          Came with DVD burner, upgraded to BluRay burner for $75 off EBay.

                          Came with two 512GB HDD's out of the box. These lasted for a few years, then I started running out of room. Upgraded them two years ago to 2 1TB HDD's.

                          Currently runs Fedora 29.

                          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                            Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                            Honestly that's a lot better than I was expecting, so I see where you're coming from. It's not a true comparison as one is a monstrous gaming laptop and the other a work laptop and therefore like comparing a Land Rover Defender to a BMW saloon car (both decent in their own class but aimed at different markets), but fair enough.

                            If anybody actually tried to use the ROG G75W for work though they'd run out of battery after 2 hours and give themselves a hernia trying to move it; that said, the silicon inside can probably crunch numbers long after a MacBook runs out of puff...

                            1. ST Silver badge

                              Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                              > If anybody actually tried to use the ROG G75W for work though they'd run out of battery after 2 hours

                              I've been using this laptop for the past 7 years for work, every day Mon-Fri. Not on battery. It wasn't even designed to run on battery in the first place, as it is a gamer laptop - whatever that means. I'm not using it for gaming though.

                              For use cases where running on battery is a must, this laptop is overkill. I don't see the point of using this laptop for reading email for example.

                              But it works just fine on AC.

                              1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                                Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

                                Yeah I get that. The battery in these laptops is more like a UPS than an actual power source.

                                MacBooks (and most other business laptops) can go a whole day on battery; and even in 2012 my MacBook would go for 6hrs; hence why it’s not really accurate to compare yours to a business laptop like a MacBook. They’re different tools. For the record my MBP is still on its original battery; 1371 cycles to date. Still get 3hrs+ out of it.

      2. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

        I'm not bothered by the funny phrase but I am very very bored with these now banal jokes.

        Can it run crysis

        Rounded corners

        Apple copied it and claimed to invent it

        you are holding it wrong

        idiot tax

        and many more. You get the feeling that every time somebody writes one of these they think they are being original. After the billionth time reading them I tend to skip the comments.

    3. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

      you ruined it by being a petulant child

      Says the commentard whilst throwing his toys from the pram...

    4. O RLY
      Pint

      Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

      Eh, I'm a Mac user since they ran Motorola 68k series procs and an iPhone user since the 3G and I don't take offense to the "idiot tax" comments (writing this on a 2018 model MacBook Pro with the fragile keyboard that has certainly made me feel idiotic periodically). It's part of the El Reg charm I've come to appreciate.

      This is, after all, the site that offers an icon of a wino with the label "windows user" to as a choice to enhance comments. I've chosen the beer one for you since it seems like you could use one.

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: "Cupertino idiot tax"

        Call it my pet hate. Lazy journalism, whatever. It's the ONE thing that really pisses me off about El Reg (well, two if you count John Leyden's hilarious spelling); for the rest I generally love their style.

  21. mark l 2 Silver badge

    "only managed 10 per cent adoption in Android 9, compared to 85 per cent for iOS 12."

    The take up number for either is pretty irrelevant for end users as long as the version they are on will run the apps they want. With both Android and iOS being mature operating systems most of the new improvements are just small tweaks rather than vast improvements that are must have upgrades. You can probably get older versions of the OS to have the same new features by using a few 3rd party apps.

    As long as your getting any security updates it doesn't matter which version you are using and even then it depends on its usage. I have a Android based STB which cost about £25 that I use for iPlayer, Youtube, Amazon prime streaming. Its never had any security updates but for what I used it for I am willing to take the risk as I don't use any other apps on it and it has a separate google login that is just used on that device nowhere else.

    1. rcp27

      WWDC is a developers conference. The point of the uptake numbers is to highlight to developers that the shiny new features of the latest iteration of the OS are worth making use of because the potential customer base will actually have them. If a developer makes an app that relies on some feature introduced in Android 9, then 90% of the Android user base will not be able to run the app.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Actually, the subtext is: using the new features will let you charge users for the upgrade. A mate of mine with an older I-Phone has been moaning about this for years.

        On Android I can only think of one app that I dropped over the last year (Mort) because it didn't support the more recent API for accessing external storage.

    2. Mage Silver badge
      Alert

      Re: compared to 85 per cent for iOS 12

      Apple is a small fraction of the market, maybe 15%? Also they quickly force upgrades by removing support for older iOS in the store. In contrast the bulk of Android Playstore Apps will install on older Android and HW as old as an iPhone 4s.

      Also very many companies sell phones with Android and most don't offer Android updates to a later version. Apple decides seemingly arbitrarily when an older iPhone won't get an iOS update, thus being "cut off" from fresh app installs.

      So comparing % on a newer Android vs % on newer iOS is meaningless for MANY reasons.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    At last, an Apple desktop propduct I can afford.

    OK, it's just the stand for now, but I can hope, can't I?

  23. JDX Gold badge

    A few nice things

    Catalyst sounds great if it works... and everyone doesn't have to rewrite their apps to be compatible. I wonder if it'll be an emulator since apps are compiled OBJ-C (I think) and if that means you can't run games, etc. Or if they'll ban some apps, so you don't just use the £1.99 version instead of the £29 desktop application?!

    Using your iPad as an additional monitor sounds kind of neat especially if it lets you use your iPad as a remote thin client on your Mac. I know you can use VNC et al already but...

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: A few nice things

      I was expecting, before the release of the first iPad, that tethering iPads to Macs to use as monitors and input devices would be a day one feature.

      1. Cavehomme_ Bronze badge

        Re: A few nice things

        Exactly. The features for Apple are way too little and too late.

  24. Cuddles Silver badge

    Impressive?

    "the Mac Pro appears to be an impressive professional-grade computer"

    It looks like an utterly standard workstation using off-the-shelf parts to me. The base spec costs about £1500 more than something with equivalent specs from Dell, and there are plenty of others who will do it for the same price or less. Obviously that doesn't come with macOS, or however they're capitalising it these days, but that's one hell of a markup just for a change of operating system.

    1. Mage Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: Impressive?

      Certainly macOS is MUCH better than Windows 10, but so is XP and today Linux is better than XP, Vista, Win7, win 8 and Win 10, and all other previous windows for Desktop, yet 10 years ago only better for a Server.

      You need compatibility for your old Windows programs on Win 10? MS says install a VM. Except you can do that on Mac OS and Linux.

      Linux doesn't need expensive Apple hardware.

      I sold, installed and gave training related to MS products for years. Fortunately not since Vista came out.

  25. andy 103
    Thumb Up

    What's the PC equivalent and how much

    Go on, someone give us a list of PC's with the equivalent spec and how much money you can "save" by building one yourself, or even buying pre-assembled.

    Monitors from other manufacturers with equivalent specs?

    For a good few years people have berated Apple for abandoning the Mac Pro line. Nobody thought it would be cheap.

  26. Luiz Abdala
    Trollface

    $1000 in monitor stands... HAHAHAHAHA

    I think Linus Tech Tips achieved $1000 in monitor stands when he cobbled together several 4k monitors to get a WALL of monitors.

    I mean, we are talking about several feet in each direction, filled with 4k monitors or something. It was a 4x4 thingie, a monstrosity.

  27. JLV Silver badge

    > hapless presenter was booed when announcing a $999 monitor stand.

    Methink El Reg has missed an opportunity for some strategic brownnosing allowing them back into the warm bosom of Apple press shindigs.

    Please allow:

    “””

    Apple offered a breakthrough, game-changing and exceptional multi-axis monitor orientation device at a more than reasonable price.

    “””

    1. FrankAlphaXII
      Devil

      FTFY

      You forgot something, Apple offered a breakthrough, game-changing and exceptional multi-axis monitor orientation device at a more than reasonable price with enhanced privacy features that far outpace the VESA stand competition.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: FTFY

        And security features - it's attached to the desk with a blockchain.

  28. andy 103
    Joke

    Power cable sold separately

    See title.

  29. LDS Silver badge
    Devil

    Apple eventually understands a phone OS is too limited for a tablet...

    ... especially when aiming to be a laptop.

    I just wonder why it took so long.

    Another step into Surfacing the iPad, anyway...

  30. sawatts
    Facepalm

    Any justification for $999 price tag?

    Was there any justification offered for the $999 price tag for a monitor stand?

    Or was it just accompanied by sniggers of "isuckers!" from behind the curtains?

  31. ChrisC

    And there I was waiting for the punchline that explained how the $999 "monitor stand" was actually a $999 entry level desktop system onto which you could sit your monitor, because I really didn't think Apple would go *that* far to prove what a bunch of overpriced tat merchants they are...

  32. CAPS LOCK Silver badge

    "We sat through 150 minutes of WWDC keynote so you didn't have to"...

    ... What's this, El Reg no longer persona non grata? I'm sorry I don't believe it </Victor Meldrew>. When did Apple and El Reg kiss and make up?

    1. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: "We sat through 150 minutes of WWDC keynote so you didn't have to"...

      They livestream it, and the writers probably sat at a table to watch that. Knowing how boring these presentations can be, I'm glad they did and I can just read the summary.

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    "O! M! G!"

    "I have to literally get, like two of these towers of cool right now, one for email and one for the Insta!" suddenly thought every bearded Barista ever, clutching their man-sacs tight in their smooth young hands.

    The background noise you're hearing is the sound of disgruntled customers watching their Espressos get cold.

    And £999 for a monitor stand is fine, when your parents are buying it.

  34. Mage Silver badge
    Coffee/keyboard

    Hello mouse support on iOS 13

    Wut?

    Totally ancient Android phones, maybe iPhone 4s era, support USB Mouse, USB keyboard and some had HDMI connectors, so a hub, HDMI screen, keyboard and mouse worked. As well as some USB to wired ethernet adaptors.

    But OTH my E65 had copy & paste and the iPhone didn't back then. First Smartphone was the N9100 and second the N9200i, I think. Email, Web, docs, two screens, real keys and even Fax, um, 15 years ago.

  35. BGatez Bronze badge

    Everything about Apple screams :Hackintosh" for the Mac OS desperate (at what? 1/10 the price? 1/20?

  36. Richard 1

    Breakneck speed!

    Notice how he rattled through those prices at breakneck speed? Probably to prevent people being able to boo any individual price. By the time people were booing about the price of the monitor stand he'd moved on by three products.

  37. DontFeedTheTrolls Silver badge

    I have to admit being an iPhone and iPad user, and all of this makes me think most of Cupertino is sitting in some hash bar and someone says "hey, lets just see how far we can push the Fanbois"

  38. tekHedd

    Sidecar, Duet

    Let Sidecar be a lesson to you: if you have a great product idea, don't bother; a big company will just copy it. And theirs will be the "official" version...maybe yours will even become a violation of their ToS...

    Guess I'll still need Duet for my "ancient" 4 year old OS macbook though.

  39. StuntMisanthrope Bronze badge

    Creative versus cost...

    Think I was watching another stream. Vesa means liabilty, insance thermal management, sneaky networking, and the stack could change a persons life with regards accessibilty and health. #movethetable

  40. Dedobot

    So, someone will spend 30 000usd for a single cpu configuration ? I can't believe that!

    Overall looks 5x times better than infamous trashcan. At least the poor editors will dont need to wear coats when sits in extremely cooled edit room ahahaha. First person witness

  41. fredesmite Bronze badge

    $12000 for a Pro 3

    US - DOLLARS

    THAT IS MORE THAN THE YEARLY WAGE FOR MANY PEOPLE IN MANY COUNTRIES

  42. Ian Joyner Bronze badge

    No such thing as idiot tax

    Stop looking down your sanctimonious Register nose at those who buy Apple by saying they are idiots that pay a tax. Look at the on-selling of personal data that funds other business models.

    People buy Apple for good reasons and those are because they are smart, not idiots.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No such thing as idiot tax

      Yes, yes, you are so right.

      Can I interest you in my new product, the iEgo Stroker? It may look like a stick with a fluffy ball on the end but the stick looks like titanum* and it's reassuringly expensive at only $999.

      *not a misprint.

  43. N2 Silver badge
    Trollface

    More evidence

    That Cook is shuch a twonk.

    I have no idea where they get $999 for a fekking stand

  44. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Rather cheap

    Bang & Olufsen has an optional TV stand for 2000 pound it does rotate a bit automatically. $200 for the Apple VESA adapter is equally rubbish. It comes for free with every other monitor.

  45. Fading Silver badge
    Coat

    What goes around......

    $200 for a VESA mount and what looks like a VESA-local bus slots for the graphics cards.........

  46. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ....a figure that prompted gasps and some boos from the WWDC audience.

    [click]

    "Video unavailable

    This video contains content from Apple, who has blocked it on copyright grounds."

    :-<

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