back to article Twist my Arm why don't you: Brit CPU behemoth latest biz to cease work with Huawei – report

Brit chip designer Arm has now severed its links with Huawei in accordance with US sanctions, depriving the Chinese smartphone maker of a crucial supplier. Arm employees were ordered to stop work on "all active contracts, support entitlements, and any pending engagements" on 16 May, according to the BBC. A British behemoth in …

  1. Sandtitz Silver badge
    Trollface

    mandatory meme

    'Well, that escalated quickly.'

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. joeW Silver badge

        Re: mandatory meme

        Good luck selling that anywhere outside China though.

        1. msknight Silver badge

          Re: mandatory meme

          Why would they be bothered about selling anything outside China? The west have been trying to get IN to China for a while, because that's the current growth market. India yes, but not for expensive feature phones at the moment.

  2. iron Silver badge
    Mushroom

    What the actual goddamn fuck ARM? Since when was a UK company beholden to the whims of the White House?

    I hope you lose share value over this.

    1. STOP_FORTH

      US components

      The BBC said some of ARM's technology came from the US. This is why they have to obey US diktats.

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: US components

        The technology was developed in the UK in the late 80s and early 90s at Acorn and spun off as ARM, which was British owned and is now part of Softbank, which is Japanese.

        1. STOP_FORTH
          WTF?

          Re: US components

          I understand all of that. I actually had an Archimedes on my office desk for a while in the Nineties. The BBC said some components or elements of the design were from US or used US technology. They didn't say what those components were, I assume it is not the core processor but some ancillary tech. Or the BBC got it wrong.

          Not sure about the downvotes. I don't like this state of affairs either, but if the US won't let you use or licence some tech, you don't have any option, surely?

          1. STOP_FORTH

            Archimedes

            Sorry, late Eighties was when I had access to an Archimedes. Blisteringly fast for the time.

            1. werdsmith Silver badge

              Re: Archimedes

              ARM don't do all their core development in the UK. Austin, TX and other US sites do some of hte heavy work.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Archimedes

                Yup, think much of the high-end stuff (A57 onwards) is designed in Austin ... and much if the other high stuff (A9 and it's derivatives) comes from Sophia in France.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: US components

          "now part of Softbank, which is Japanese"

          Possibly it's Softbank which is being leaned on.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: US components

          big_D noted, "The technology was developed in the UK in the late 80s and early 90s..."

          Ah, but the transistor and NAND gate are both USA invented, sanction-worthy technology. :-)

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: US components

            However Boolean logic is Irish

            1. STOP_FORTH

              Re: US components

              Logic is Greek!

            2. aeonturnip

              Re: US components

              Debatable. George Boole first introduced his algebra in "The Mathematical Analysis of Logic" which was published in 1847, when he was still living and working in Lincoln. He didn't got to Ireland until 2 years later, and whilst there did more work and published "An Investigation of the Laws of Thought" in 1854 where he discusses it more thoroughly.

        4. Timto

          Re: US components

          Softbank only bought ARM so they could sell off the crown jewels to China at a massive mark up.

          China will produce it's own version of ARM very quickly and will now pretend it's their own IP.

          They did it with high speed trains, if anyone is looking for an example

    2. joeldillon

      ARM isn't a publicly traded company (nor, for that matter, is it British-owned any more)

  3. don't you hate it when you lose your account

    Lost at why they would do this

    Sorry. Trumps an arse,

    1. Soruk

      Re: Lost at why they would do this

      That comparison is not fair on arses.

    2. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: Lost at why they would do this

      I think the apology and the beginning of the comment is unnecessary.

      1. Erroneous Howard

        Re: Lost at why they would do this

        Maybe he's Canadian

      2. don't you hate it when you lose your account

        Re: Lost at why they would do this

        The apology was not meant for the orange arse ( he can fuck off ) but the worlds population that are being affected by his status as head arse in the US. I feel the same way about the head Chines ( calling him Pooh is an insult to teddys everywhere) arse, but this is not the way to sort it. The world we all have to live in is not bullshit reality TV..

  4. STOP_FORTH
    Alert

    Unintended consequences

    So 5 years hence, when Chinese companies have their own chipsets running their own OS, how will this benefit Google, ARM, the US?

    Will ten-year-olds in the US be working in sweatshops producing cheap tee-shirts for the Chinese market, while Chinese tech companies move up the value chain?

    1. Rupert Fiennes Silver badge

      Re: Unintended consequences

      All very true. But, on the other hand, China has been ruthless in illegally demanding technology for market access for decades now. Don't think Huawei was planning on licensing ARM patents in a decade's time, because it doubtless planned not to need to.

      1. Azerty

        Re: Unintended consequences

        > But, on the other hand, China has been ruthless in illegally demanding technology for market access for decades now.

        This has been claimed often but seldom documented in detail. I like to see your best examples of this has been happening 'for decades'.

        1. Dabbb Bronze badge

          Re: Unintended consequences

          "Premier Li Keqiang on Tuesday vowed there would be no mandatory technology transfers in China’s manufacturing sector, in the latest bid to reassure the country’s frustrated trading partners.

          Foreign companies have complained for years about forced technology transfers in exchange for market access in China, including having to reveal their most sophisticated or key technology to Chinese partners in joint ventures.

          They say forced technology transfers are rife in the car, semiconductor and new energy battery industries, but Beijing has not officially acknowledged that such practices exist."

          I'll leave it to you to google rest, unless you have Huawei phone of course.

          1. JoMe

            Re: Unintended consequences

            "I'll leave it to you to google rest"

            Unfortunately, these idiots don't bother researching for themselves, they just accept whatever the media tells them is fact and don't bother looking for themselves. You don't need to look any further than Obama lovers and Trump haters to see who researches and who accepts the media at their word.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Unintended consequences

            Why would I want to Google it? More data holes in using Google than all the Huawei equipment.

            Given what we know about Google and Cisco Im staggered by the whole Pot and kettle thing!

            The septics really are losing the plot.

            1. JoMe

              Re: Unintended consequences

              I'd call you out for septics, but it works well either way :)

              Google - the engine - is a tool. Put a request on the line and it returns what it can find. Now sure, some of those results are going to be gamified, but if you lack the basic intelligence to weigh metrics based on it's internal logic and center of basis, then you're never going to know the truth because you don't know how to recognize it when you see it.

              That's ok. I'm sure the media can feed you their version of the truth, which often happens to be skewed to their own political agenda and rarely bare factual basis. If that's your decision, go ahead. Just don't expect to find many intelligent people that agree with you.

        2. Warm Braw Silver badge

          Re: Unintended consequences

          The US became a dominant economy largely because of its refusal to acknowledge what we would now consider intellectual property rights of the incumbent industrial powers. It's rather difficult to bootstrap an industrial sector if you can only import industrial goods or pay a high premium in an undeveloped market for the privilege of making things. Hardly surprising if China were to follow America's path.

          The same did not apply within the US, of course. Ironically, the reason that the prime beneficiary of copyright - the movie industry - is based in Hollywood is that early cinematographers had fled from New York where Edison had hired gangs of thugs to smash their cameras in a patent dispute.

          It's probably more of a problem that so much low-end technology is now made in China than high-end stuff. It's arguably more difficult to sustain an exclusively high-tech economy because you don't have the critical mass of talent and investors who are prepared to invest in making things.

    2. Psion1k

      Re: Unintended consequences

      I think the answer is the same as always. The current politicians don't care.

      They will have their pensions, jobs from their mates, and a massive fortune that will isolate them from any real consequences.

      To sum up, it will be someone else's problem to deal with the fallout.

  5. ciaran
    Facepalm

    Definitely a surprise

    Kick in the balls is right! Well that's going to accelerate CPU development in China, the Chinese government isn't going to take this lying down!

    I suspect this is a watershed moment, where the whole Chinese population will decide that the Americans are ruthless and untrustworthy.

    The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour because the US was denying it access to oil (as one theory goes). This decision really feels similar. Eventually the US will find itself isolated, they're pissing off so many countries. But before that many dangerous things can happen....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Definitely a surprise

      No, the Pearl Harbor attack started way back in the 1850s when Peary forced a landing in Japan and demanded American access. (Familiar pattern?). But when the Japanese started emigrating to California and turning out to be excellent farmers, the US kicked them out. (Familiar pattern again?)

      Then after WW1 the US refused to join the League of Nations because it wanted non-white and white people to have equality, and good ole racist USA wasn't having that.

      The result was that Japan decided to build an empire in northern China - which was pretty terrible. They thought that they would need to fight a war in Russia to keep their Chinese territory.

      The US meanwhile embargoed everything they could think of, including oil (seems suddenly very relevant.)

      The Japanese military thought that a successful attack on Pearl Harbor might persuade the US to stay out of Asia, allowing them to concentrate on defeating Russia. It was because the few Japanese who had been to America and realised how big and how productive it was, were ignored by the military who thought the US was smaller and less powerful than Japan.

      It isn't an exact analogy because this time the forces on either side are more equal. But given the results of American racism and aggression over nearly a century, the prospects are not good.

      (George Feifer is a good initial go-to for the background.)

      1. Thoguht Silver badge

        Re: Definitely a surprise

        The basic facts are correct, but not all the connections. Japan decided it needed to build an empire very early in the 19th century when it was afraid of being overrun by the Dutch, the Portuguese and others, but it lacked the means to do so until over 100 year later when British had shown them how to build a decent navy, the Prussians had reformed the Japanese army and the French had helped them set up an air force.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Definitely a surprise

          You are of course right, but I did refer people to Feifer's two books (and their bibliographies and references) for the in-depth background.

          1. P. Lee Silver badge

            Re: Definitely a surprise

            Also, Hardcore History podcast, "Supernova in the East" for those who like their history to be entertaining.

      2. Stuart Dole

        Re: Definitely a surprise

        My dad remembers working on a crew that was cutting up old gold dredges in California into 12-inch cubes of steel, which were loaded for shipment to Japan - to help build their navy. That would have been the late 30s.

      3. eldakka Silver badge

        Re: Definitely a surprise

        Nice article, however I'm not sure I agree with:

        ...realised how big and how productive it was, were ignored by the military who thought the US was smaller and less powerful than Japan.

        My understanding is a little different, but to be honest it's not like I've done research into this recently from what I'd learned 20 years ago, and the historical position may have changed in the meantime (history is, after all, written by the winners).

        The attack on Pearl Harbor was a failure in that the aircraft carriers that were the primary purpose of the attack were out on an exercise, and not in port, thus were not destroyed in the raid.

        If the carriers had been destroyed, then while I have little doubt the allies would have still won WWII, it probably would have lasted longer though.

        Without the carriers, the Japanese would have had a much freer hand in the Pacific for much longer until the US could replace them. This would undoubtedly have led to losing Oceania to the Japanese as well. With an extra year, the Japanese positions would have been better consolidated, they'd have more resources, a bigger stockpile of arms and materials, more of everything basically. Or, the US could have diverted more Atlantic units to the Pacific, thus impacting the fight in Europe, thus giving the European Axis powers a chance to consolidate their positions.

        As I said, I still think the Allies would have won, but many things would have turned out differently, more dead, more destruction, different political positions after the war, e.g. USSR may have taken a bigger slice of Europe if the Americans had to divert more from Europe to the Pacific, and so on.

        Of course, this could be said of many other events, "if this was more successful", or "if that went worse than it did".

        However, the raid on Pearl Harbor was a known gamble by the Japanese, their entire strategy relied on a successful Pearl Harbor attack - where successful means having destroyed or crippled the US Pacific Fleet's carriers - to buy them enough time to better consolidate their positions in the Pacific, perhaps resulting in a negotiated peace. But they failed.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Definitely a surprise

      "where the whole Chinese population will decide that the Americans are ruthless and untrustworthy."

      If they're only deciding that now they've been slow off the mark.

      I wonder what the legality of all this is in terms if international law. The repercussions of this could be enriching lawyers for years.

      1. el kabong Silver badge

        International law plays no role, US Imperial law is all that matters in this fracas

        At least to Trump that's how it is, America is immune to International law. As a matter of fact the tiny fingered loofa-faced shitgibbon emperor of america goes even further, trump consider's itself personally immune to all laws, be them International law, American Imperial law, Congress law or any other law.

        Give trump a law and the loofa-faced emperor wipes its ass with it, trumps does not care for the law, even the laws that trump made get the wipe ass treatment .

        1. Chris G Silver badge

          Re: International law plays no role, US Imperial law is all that matters in this fracas

          America considers itself exceptional, Trump considers himself more exceptional so he can do things thst are huugely exceptional.

          1. VikiAi Silver badge
            Headmaster

            Re: International law plays no role, US Imperial law is all that matters in this fracas

            "All animals are equal. But some are more equal than others."

        2. JoMe

          Re: International law plays no role, US Imperial law is all that matters in this fracas

          That's nothing new, and not Trump driven. The US has frequently passed judgement on other countries then expected those countries to comply, then kicked up a hissy fit when they don't

  6. steelpillow Silver badge
    WTF?

    Conspiracy theory No. 1

    If a Japanese-owned design house in the UK are licensing stuff to be made in the far East, then even if it does contain licensed US technology you cannot simply revoke a license once purchased. That is illegal under international trade law. A legal challenge would comfortably outlast Trump.

    The real question is, why does a Japanese-owned company in the UK see its future more closely allied to Trump's last days than to China? I smell a rat here. A critical moment in Intel's life-support plan perhaps?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Conspiracy theory No. 1

      Most likely because the US judicial system has been supporting US companies at the expense of foreign ones for decades, no matter the party in power. When Trump is gone, the next president from whatever party is unlikely to cancel everything he did, if only because a US president has to act macho all the time.

      1. FrogsAndChips Silver badge

        Re: Conspiracy theory No. 1

        Trump is the most macho (machoest?) US prez we've seen in decades, and that hasn't prevented him from undoing all his predecessor had put in place.

        1. STOP_FORTH

          Re: Conspiracy theory No. 1

          Machismoist?

          1. Anonymous Coward Silver badge

            Re: Conspiracy theory No. 1

            Masochistic?

      2. Phil Kingston Silver badge

        Re: Conspiracy theory No. 1

        >Most likely because the US judicial system has been supporting US companies at the expense of foreign ones for decades

        Not saying it's right, but that sounds pretty much the same as the Chinese have done.

    2. Velv Silver badge
      Terminator

      Re: Conspiracy theory No. 1

      "I smell a rat here"

      Couldn't agree more. Someone political has threatened had a word with ARM over what might happen to anything using their designs if they continue to supply China companies with licenses.

      I see no reason the Board of Directors would reach the conclusion they need to comply with the US regulations on their own, somebody must have influenced them.

      1. Dabbb Bronze badge

        Re: Conspiracy theory No. 1

        Somebody ? More like something and that's common sense. It's better to be on a winning side.

        1. el kabong Silver badge

          Exactly! And you can change sides when the winning side turns out to be the losing side

          So, stick with trump while trump seems to be winning. Stick your finger up trump's when the tide turns.

          Common sense!

          1. JoMe

            Re: Exactly! And you can change sides when the winning side turns out to be the losing side

            There's a reason for that. Look no further than the pure idiocy perpetuated by Obama to understand why Trump not only got elected, but thanks to the ever-increasing batshit insanity that is the democrat party, is likely to win again.

      2. jmecher

        Re: Conspiracy theory No. 1

        Couldn't agree more. Someone political has threatened had a word with ARM over what might happen to anything using their designs if they continue to supply China companies with licenses.

        --

        The word was had with Softbank, rather? Regardless how you look at it, ARM is worse off than before, I can't imagine them being so eager on their own, it probably was forced on them...

        (this is pure speculation, no insight whatsoever, personal opinion)

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Conspiracy theory No. 1

      They probably make more money from licensing to US firms than to Chinese and principles don't pay the bills.

    4. MOV r0,r0

      Re: Conspiracy theory No. 1

      ARM's licence agreements will contain clauses for all eventualities including international trade embargoes, there will be no illegality because licensees will already have agreed to terms - it's not like ARM are new to IP licencing!

      1. steelpillow Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Conspiracy theory No. 1

        "it's not like ARM are new to IP licencing!"

        Nice one. have an icon on me.

  7. Christian Berger Silver badge

    This could be good for all of us in the future

    If Huawei was smart, they'd now sponsor alternative firmwares for their devices and unlock their bootloaders so people can run actually free firmware on those, then they'd also move from ARM to RISC-V.

    In the long term this could be good for all of us... probably bad for the US, but few of us live there.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: This could be good for all of us in the future

      >so people can run actually free firmware...

      Just need to ensure that the free firmware and its development repository isn't hosted on US systems and that contributions from US sources are handled very carefully...

      Some parts of the open source movement can say they saw this coming, hence why great efforts went into ensuring key software developments eg. encryption and OS, were hosted on servers outside of the US.

      If you are involved in open source, warning bells should now be sounding: if your project is hosted on a US owned or located repository, and/or it accepts contributions from US companies (and nationals?), it can be claimed to contain “US origin technology”...

  8. big_D Silver badge
    Paris Hilton

    Since when have...

    US laws being applicable to UK or Japanese companies?

    US companies seem to think they can ignore foreign laws, when they do business in the foreign lands, so why should foreign companies even think about following non-applicable laws?

    1. Velv Silver badge
      Terminator

      Re: Since when have...

      There are a LOT of things sold in the US that have ARM licensed chips irrespective of where they are made.

      Like a Mafioso protection racket: "Would be a shame if all those things couldn't be sold any more"

      1. Kernel Silver badge

        Re: Since when have...

        "There are a LOT of things sold in the US that have ARM licensed chips irrespective of where they are made.

        Like a Mafioso protection racket: "Would be a shame if all those things couldn't be sold any more"

        Do you really not see the problem those two statements describe - and I don't mean a problem for ARM.

    2. ST Silver badge

      Re: Since when have...

      > US laws being applicable to UK or Japanese companies?

      Arm Holdings, Inc. is a US corporation headquartered in San Jose, California, USA. As such, it has to obey US laws.

      ARM's designs are not created exclusively outside of US. ARM has a significant R&D presence in Austin, TX and in California. If ARM Holdings, Inc. decided to ignore the US, ARM's US export license could be revoked.

      Also, Global Foundries is one of ARM's chip manufacturers. GlobalFoundries is a US corporation as well, headquartered in Santa Clara, California, USA.

      So yes, there are a lot of applicable US laws here.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Since when have...

        >Arm Holdings, Inc. is a US corporation headquartered in San Jose, California, USA. As such, it has to obey US laws.

        >So yes, there are a lot of applicable US laws here.

        I would hope Linus and friends are now looking very closely at what contains “US origin technology” may mean for Linux and associated open source projects sponsored by organisations such as the LinuxFoundation - HQ San Francisco...

    3. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

      Re: Since when have...

      There are a series of regulations like ITAR which can allow the US to prevent a company from doing business with US companies should they break the regulations.

      The US companies that most others rely on include the banking and finance sectors (how do you accept retail payments if VISA, Mastercard etc) wont handle your payments (not that ARM make retail sales, but that was just an example).

      This was apparent when Wikileaks had pretty much all of the means of accepting money turned off at the height of the Bradley Manning/Edward Snowdon controversy.

      Until there are non-US payment processors and other financial systems, the US will have a means of affecting companies that do not comply with their edicts.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Since when have US laws been applicable to UK or Japanese companies?

      I guess you're unfamiliar with the concept of "extraterritoriality", which is a shame as e.g. the story of UK IT business Systime (starting in the 1970s?) hinges around whether US extraterritoriality is legit or not.

      "Systime plc was an entrepreneurial company founded in Leeds by Mr. John Gow and others in the mid-seventies. Its major business developed around retailing of equipment purchased mainly from Digital Equipment Corporation, with additional parts and software. DEC, as Digital is known, is the second largest computer company in the world, based near Boston, Massachusetts. It built up its huge sales mainly by wholesaling equipment to companies, such as Systime, which then sold the equipment to end users.

      In 1979, Systime's management discovered that it was about 25 per cent. cheaper to buy equipment direct from DEC in the United States than from DEC's subsidiary in the United Kingdom. DEC UK objected to the loss of profit that that implied, and persuaded DEC US to insist that equipment could be bought only from the subsidiary. Subsequently, when DEC US tried to break its contract with the Systime subsidiary in the United States, Systime's management commenced an anti-trust action in which the British Government took an amicus curiae position. DEC drew back and agreed to a partial continuation of supply. Systime appeared to have won a breathing space, but it was only temporary. That is apparently the only time that the British Government have openly defended Systime, and, significantly, the only time that DEC has drawn back.

      In 1979, DEC UK, under its American manager, Mr. Darryl Barbé launched a formal campaign known as the "Kill Systime" campaign. He had the full support of the American management. The DEC president, Mr. Ken Olsen, was subsequently overheard leaving a board-level meeting with another company, declaring that he wished to see Systime out of business. Mr. Pier-Carlo Falotti, European vice-president of DEC, said to DEC staff: "I want you guys to go out and kill Systime."

      918

      DEC's most senior vice-president, Mr. Jack Shields, was regularly in the United Kingdom, supervising the events that I shall set out. Between 1980 and 1983, Systime grew rapidly, making sales to the British and United States Governments, and commencing the manufacture of ruggadised computers for the Ministry of Defence. Exports also grew to the benefit of the United Kingdom.

      The British Technology Group, the Government's investment arm, and others invested heavily in Systime. By the end of 1982 the need for new cash to support the now rapid growth of the company became urgent. That was well known to DEC, which took unique and wholly improper advantage to destroy Systime.

      Besides the openly declared "Kill Systime" campaign, there was a secret investigation conducted on DEC's behalf by a private detective agency, Network Security Services. I was told by one ex-DEC employee that Network Security Services "have contacts everywhere."

      (continues - extracted from

      https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1986/feb/25/systime-plc)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Since when have US laws been applicable to UK or Japanese companies?

        Why did DEC want to kill systime, when they were a big customer? It seems a bit rich to complain because they "only" pay American rates..

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Since when have US laws been applicable to UK or Japanese companies?

          (Original AC here)

          There were ongoing reports of corporate DEC not wanting a "grey market" in their kit. There are modern equivalents (not with DEC) but with various branded items, not necessarily even in the computer industry e.g. in clothing and perfume and phones and beyond.

          Back then, Systime took essential bits of genuine DEC hardware and added stuff such as power supplies and storage and cables that came straight off the shelf from industry vendors, and sold them on at rather lower prices than the DEC UK management were accustomed to charging.

          Another aspect was that if DEC kit sold by a UK company was found to end up in places where the US government didn't want it to be, DEC UK was at risk of losing its licence to readily import DEC kit from the USA.

          Systime employees at various levels have said that some DEC systems they sold ended up in places the US government didn't want such systems to be in. Without the generic US export licence, every computer order taken by DEC UK back then would have needed individual clearance with the US export control regime. Ooops.

          And that takes us straight back to extraterritoriality forty years ago, vs extraterritoriality today.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Since when have US laws been applicable to UK or Japanese companies?

            (Previous AC here!)

            Thanks! That makes sense.. I'd have never have thought of those reasons myself, but it makes sense when you explain it!

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ARM didn't want this. This is all down to the Moron in Chief.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    And so, history repeats itself

    That's what you get when you don't pay attention to it.

    The reason the Russians are so damn good in coding is because the US stopped them from having the latest, most powerful systems so they were forced to be intelligent and efficient with what they had, while the US .. well, look at how bloated Microsoft code is to demonstrate how too much power encourages wasteful programming - why on earth does one have to wait for a word processor?!?

    The Japanese were not given many IPv4 addresses, so they had to go down the IPv6 route much earlier than any of us. While we are still coming to grips with it now IPv4 is "finished" (allegedly there's still trade), they already have years and years of expertise - waaay ahead of the Americans (and us).

    So, sure, let's cut the Chinese off from the slowdown that Western tech brings and let them invent their own things. The result will be predictable. Of course, by that time, Trump will orange from head to toe on account of being in jail, but this is where it starts. They could not have done them a bigger favour. Short term it sucks, long term they've just hot themselves in the foot. Again. Maybe another reason why gun control would be a good idea?

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: And so, history repeats itself

      Reminds me of the arms embargo where military equipment was not sold to South Africa.

      When UK military called for tenders for an attack helicopter, South African firm Denel showed up with the Rooivalk.

      1. druck Silver badge

        Re: And so, history repeats itself

        Plus a number of good armoured personnel carriers.

    2. Gordon 10 Silver badge

      Re: And so, history repeats itself

      Whilst I'm sympathetic to your statements (and agree with your overall point) name one brand name Russian owned piece of software thats achieved global prominence apart from Kaspersky? So their coding skills haven't benefited their economy that much.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And so, history repeats itself

        "...name one brand name Russian owned piece of software thats achieved global prominence..."

        Fancy Bear

        APT28

        Pawn Storm

        Sofacy Group

        Sednit

        Tsar Team

        STRONTIUM

        1. Muppet Boss
          Boffin

          Re: And so, history repeats itself

          Well, "brand name Russian-owned" does not seem to be synonymous with "developed by Russian programmers": Russian oligarchs invested heavily into Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Uber, Zynga, Checkout, Alibaba, Xiaomi, ICQ, Groupon, Airbnb, Spotify etc, not sure if this is what you meant. Mentioning some Russian-born Sergey billionaires might not be quite fair either.

          Imho listing large software companies founded by Russian tech entrepreneurs educated in Russia would do the trick, here you go, you might recognize some:

          ABBYY

          Acronis

          Acumatica

          IPG Photonics (not software but hey, cool lasers)

          Jetbrains (IntelliJ/Kotlin/Teamcity)

          Luxsoft

          Nginx

          Ntechlab (Findface)

          Paragon

          Parallels

          Playrix (Township/Homescapes)

          Plesk

          Revolut (yup)

          Tamosoft (Tamograph)

          Telegram

          Veeam

          Virtuozzo

          Yandex

          Sorry Whatsapp (part Ukrainian), EPAM, Wargaming/World of Tanks (both Belarus) probably do not qualify.

        2. Anonymous Coward Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: And so, history repeats itself

          He said ONE, not seven.

      2. el kabong Silver badge

        Several factors, none of them stems from wrong tech choices. Russia has been dealt a tough hand.

        Russia has been dealt a tough hand, a legacy of problems contribute to Russia's economic situation, a situation that would be much worse had the Russians been fool enough to get swindled by the great amercan con.

        1. MOV r0,r0

          Re: Several factors, none of them stems from wrong tech choices. Russia has been dealt a tough hand.

          Glasnost exposed what was really going on: pretend to the workers that they own everything while actually robbing them blind. No one country or system is perfect but in various forms over the years Russia has been nothing but kleptocracy.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Several factors, none of them stems from wrong tech choices. Russia has been dealt a tough hand.

            "in various forms over the years Russia has been nothing but kleptocracy."

            And they've been exporting it lately too.

            There's a shipload of hot Russian money in London in the last few years, and a shipload of Westminster establishment politicians of various parties sharing the yachts of Russian oligarchs.

            Good job I can't remember any names... oh wait, try starting with Deripaska and see where it leads. E.g.

            https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-corfu-controversy-how-the-world-really-works-973817.html

      3. STOP_FORTH

        Re: And so, history repeats itself

        Tetris?

        1. sed gawk Bronze badge

          Re: And so, history repeats itself

          Damn beat me to it.

          Have an upvote.

      4. sed gawk Bronze badge

        Re: And so, history repeats itself

        Russian SW

        Tetris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris

        Was rather popular as I recall.

      5. Poncey McPonceface
        WTF?

        Re: And so, history repeats itself

        Nginx

      6. Triffids

        Re: And so, history repeats itself

        I can add that from russian hackers came Ethereum, Telegramm, Revolut, Intellij, Zabbix, Nginx

    3. JoMe

      Re: And so, history repeats itself

      https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/05/17/ipv4_address_fraud_charge/

      Well, we have at least 750k more IP addresses on top of whatever is left...

    4. ST Silver badge

      Re: And so, history repeats itself

      > The reason the Russians are so damn good in coding is because the US stopped them from having the latest, most powerful systems so they were forced to be intelligent and efficient with what they had [ ... ]

      Not really.

      The Soviets got their hands on western computer systems designs. At first, early '70's, it was mainframes. Then came the DEC VAX designs and VMS code and AT&T's source code to UNIX Version 6, then Version 7, then SVR3. All of this courtesy of the USSR KGB and GRU and their Six Little Sisters - espionage for VAX and VMS, and stolen from US universities by the same, where AT&T's source code was available.

      Warsaw Treaty espionage targeting Western computer systems design was big business in the '70's and '80's. It was an integral and important part of the Eastern Bloc's defense posture and strategy.

      DEC VAX clones running VMS derivatives or various versions of AT&T UNIX were being manufactured in several countries from the Eastern Bloc in the late '70's throughout the '80's, up until its collapse in 1989. The hardware designs and the source code originally came from the USSR. All the Warsaw Treaty countries were involved, plus Cuba. China was a big importer of these machines.

      Wikipedia - History of Computer Hardware in Soviet Bloc Countries, but unfortunately it's far from complete, and not very detailed.

    5. Justthefacts

      Re: And so, history repeats itself

      Exactly.

      And it’s worth noting that ARM and ARM China are separated, so they can play on both sides of a trade war.

      The most bizarre thing is that Huawei’s biggest American “supplier” is the patent licensing they have to pay Qualcomm. So The Orange One just made it illegal for the second largest phone manufacturer in the world to pay Qualcomm tens of billions, without actually stopping Huawei making phones, or hurting their sales in their main market. They don’t call him The Bigliest Genius President Ever for nothing!

  11. DenTheMan

    Biggest UK national security blunder ever.

    I was flabbergasted when there was no UK intervention when Arm was sold to Softbank, and (later) Saudi Arabia.

    Protectionist blackmail may cost billions.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Biggest UK national security blunder ever.

      brexiters will blame the eu for that. the eu is reposible for all uk firms going bust or abroad.

  12. Anonymous South African Coward Silver badge

    Interesting Times...

    Oh, there goes the Luggage, and Rincewind's riding on it. May be a good time to skedaddle outta here as well...

    we need a pratchett icon.

  13. Any other name

    This will harm ARM as much as it will Huawei

    Is anybody taking bets on what the Chinese government's response is going to be?

    My money is on China suspending copyrights and patents of the Western companies in the technology sector until the Huawei sanctions are lifted. This looks like something they could plausibly argue is a proportionate response to an unlawful trade restraint under the WTO rules - see the Antigua vs. the USA gambling dispute (https://antiguawto.com/).

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Hmm, let me check - yup, popcorn reserves are reaching the critical low point.

      Need a resupply, urgently.

    2. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
      Pint

      Re: This will harm ARM as much as it will Huawei

      Is anybody taking bets on what the Chinese government's response is going to be?

      I have bet my family's savings and home on China caving, offering a grovelling apology to Trump and the American people, promising never to do it again, and writing-off America's trillion dollar debt to China as a show of goodwill.

      I can't wait for my loved ones to get home so I can tell them I have assured their future.

      1. Alistair Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: This will harm ARM as much as it will Huawei

        @JB:

        There are those who consider me an artist at such. This is one of the better comments I've seen of late on this subject.

        I salute you sir!

        Have a beer for the art.

        Now, have a mop and bucket to clean that puddle up.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This will harm ARM as much as it will Huawei

      "My money is on China suspending copyrights and patents of the Western companies in the technology sector"

      So you mean what they have been doing for years now...

    4. Nick Kew Silver badge

      Re: This will harm ARM as much as it will Huawei

      Huawei holds various ARM licences. I expect the contract says they have rights that can't be unilaterally withdrawn, and that they pay ongoing royalties for those.

      Arm harm could go a lot further than Huawei. Today's news is the first to make me really glad I no longer hold ARM shares (which I was sorry to part with despite the profit I made when Softbank bought them).

      ARM's whole ecosystem (like Android's) only works if participants are treated fairly. This could provide an impetus for an industry-wide effort to develop a real alternative to ARM (perhaps even more so when you add Qualcomm's aggressive behaviour within the ecosystem). By analogy, imagine the impetus Linux might've got if, twenty years ago, Microsoft had suddenly withheld cooperation from Dell or Compaq shipping Windows.

      1. eldakka Silver badge

        Re: This will harm ARM as much as it will Huawei

        Laws trump contracts.

        A change in law can invalidate clauses in a contract if not void the entire contract.

        1. Nick Kew Silver badge

          Re: This will harm ARM as much as it will Huawei

          Whose law?

          Trump's law (using "national emergency" to override his own country's rule of law) governs a contract between on the one hand a Japanese-owned British company, and on the other hand a Chinese company.

          No wonder Trump vetoed WTO continuation!

      2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

        Re: This will harm ARM as much as it will Huawei

        ... and if BSD hadn't been caught up in legal hassle, linux probably wouldn't be a thing, and microsoft would have arguably been less succdssful.

        http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Torvalds/Finland_period/att_lawsuit_as_a_launcher_for_linux.shtml

    5. Chet Mannly

      Re: This will harm ARM as much as it will Huawei

      Well iphones will be the first to go. If the Chinese block those that would hurt Apple (and the US stock market) big time. And there are reports of Chinese people already dumping iphones for Huawei because of this.

      The list of US companies needing access to China's massive market to continue sales growth is pretty long.

  14. glococo

    Welcome Risc-V !

    1. YARR

      I'm not sure that Risc-V has suitably advanced replacement CPU cores available yet. However MIPS is already supported for Android.

      1. tulpe

        And what is a CPU without a GPU nowadays..

        Luckily Imagination Technologies (PowerVR) sits in the UK.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @tulpe: "Imagination Tecbnologies sits in the UK"

          Does it? Really? Is where it sits more important, or less important, than where the control is? (Or where the jobs adverts say the work is :) )

          Imagination Technologies were a long time major supplier to Apple. Then there was a conscious uncoupling or whatever they call these things:

          "Imagination Technologies not only lost key engineers to Apple who set up a 22,500-square-foot design center in St. Albans, only a few miles from Imagination Technologies, but also ended up being bought out for £550M (around $700M) by Chinese-backed Canyon Bridge in November 2017."

          from https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1333614#

          https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-imagination-technologies-deal/canyon-bridge-bid-for-imagination-technologies-approved-by-uk-court-idUKKBN1D22FQ (March 2018)

          https://www.imgtec.com/news/press-release/imagination-technologies-group-ltd-announces-ceo-succession-13-12-18/ (December 2018)

          Anyway, thanks for joining TheRegister today, tulpe.

  15. Merrill

    The Softbank Sprint-ARM relationship

    Softbank owns 80% of Sprint, a US mobile carrier. Sprint is now the smallest, weakest and least profitable of the 4 major carriers, and is thought to be circling the drain. Softbank is attempting to get a merger with T-Mobile approved by the US Department of Justice in order to salvage its investment.

    Softbank also owns ARM.

  16. Poncey McPonceface
    Flame

    Fuck the US government

    Fuck their militarism, fuck their strong-arming, fuck their sanctions, fuck their embargoes, fuck their extraterritorial drone strikes, fuck their torturing, fuck their regime change wars, fuck their endless wars, fuck their interventions, fuck their trouble-making, fuck their support of dictatorships, fuck their blockades, fuck their arrogance, fuck them not for not following international norms, fuck them for all the treaties they haven't signed up to, fuck them for all the treaties they've pulled out of, fuck their double-standards, fuck their imperialism, fuck their support of Israel, fuck the lot of them.

    I hope and pray that China is the rock upon which the USS Hegemon is shipwrecked.

    1. Rupert Fiennes Silver badge

      Re: Fuck the US government

      You prefer a nation who's body count is half way to 9 figures to "win"? Methinks you need to gain perspective.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not hard to understand.

    Anything even slightly touched by US engineers is considered US tech.

    Breaking trade compliance and White House diktats opens your execs and employees up to federal detention.

    Given the supine way the UK, Canada etc rolls over and hands over their own and other's citizens to the US it's not surprising corps apply the most stringent interpretations of the rules.

    Easy for armchair commentards to rail against such things when it's not their asses on the line during business trips.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not hard to understand.

      Actually the "US-origin content" needs to be 25% or more by value to fall under these laws. But obviously that's hard to quantify with IP. You can understand them playing on the safe side. You don't want to be in a US jail while the lawyers debate the issue, possibly for years.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not hard to understand.

        >>>But obviously that's impossible to quantify with IP and judges/lawyers who wouldn't have a clue about RTL.

        FTFY

  18. ARGO

    Patents are exempt - apparently?

    Interdigital plan to carry on licensing as their agreements only cover patents. Those are matters of public record, so the agreement is "we won't sue you" rather than actually sharing any technology - the sharing already happened when the patent was published. I wonder if this route might allow use of ARM's US originated IPR?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-usa-interdigital-us-idUSKCN1SR06C

  19. HatHatHatHatHat

    trade war bargaining chip?

  20. jmecher

    loss for ARM

    As someone said above, once you stop being neutral, you can no longer be seen as a "universal" thing.

    This will improve the visibility of alternative, more decentralized options like RISCV and MIPS.

    1. cjrcl

      Re: loss for ARM

      Both RISC-V and MIPS are subject to US embargo.

      The legacy DEC Alpha may be an exception.

      1. jmecher

        Re: loss for ARM

        Both RISC-V and MIPS are subject to US embargo.

        --

        That does not have quite the same impact.

        ARM fences improvements to the architecture and instruction set behind a business contract, thus making it unfeasible.

        For RISCV/MIPS you can download them freely, or you can license already existing IP from a non-encumbered vendor as a start off point for your thing.

  21. This post has been deleted by its author

  22. technocrat

    This isn't just Trump policies, this has been going on for years, even through Obama's reign, just a war on China in different ways, theres a good Pilger documentary from a few years back about the war with China, very interesting.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC_HEl4iwlA

    1. Mellipop

      Globalism versus protectionism

      Vested interests will win either way.

  23. sum_of_squares
    Joke

    "We value our close relationships with our partners, but recognise the pressure some of them are under, as a result of politically motivated decisions."

    Translation:

    "And we won't forget this, you treacherous little.."

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