Re: What possible delay?
"Bullshit. Neither the conservative or labour had a solid position on EU/Brexit at the last GE"
Your right. We had the Tories who held the referendum and promised brexit. Labour who refused to back remaining and the leader being against the EU. The only party guaranteeing binning the result and remaining was libs, and they almost wiped out completely.
"Labour is still fudging it, last I heard they want a customs union"
From what I hear they basically want things you cant have unless we remain while being for leave. So yeah fudging badly.
"The conservatives have managed to negotiate a Brexit deal which they can't get passed by their own party, let alone cross party."
This is fantastic because Gina Miller went to court and made it so parliament had to have a vote and there is no majority to do something. So the legal default is hard brexit. Leave might actually win this due to the incompetence of the desperate attempts to remain.
"Other than it's the status quo?"
Any idiot voting remain because it will keep the status quo is probably waiting for their unicorn to arrive. Idiot doesnt cover it, how can anyone be so deluded?
"My argument for remain is that it is a complete proposal."
That is actually a good argument. It is something that bothers me as a leave voter that leave is not that hard. Unfortunately trying to remain while delivering leave is extremely hard and is the problem.
"I think drawing attention to the things that are going wrong with the EU is a good thing (whichever side you're on), but Whitehall has spent decades hiding their own incompetence behind the facade of the EU."
Absolutely. One mistake often made by responders to me is to think I support the gov or think they are good. Our gov have screwed up plenty and so has the EU. My argument generally sits on an incompetent government above an incompetent government doesnt fix the situation.
"If only the EU was a federal state and could sort out the British civil service, but it turns out that all the EU members are in fact sovereign. Well, sovereign in legal terms, I'm sure there's some other definition :)"
Showing the slave that they are allowed to step out of their cage and therefore are not a slave doesnt change the facts. But I wouldnt be shocked if the solution to a lot of the EU problems is to federalise, the alternative being to back down to a working trade block. The mishmash they have now seeming to cause a lot of their trouble.
"If and when I see an actual proposal from the leavers, rather than empty promises, then I'll listen. One that is based on a) the current situation and b) things that are available now would be nice."
UKIP actually had a full plan for leave. The brexiters seemed to have some sense of a plan in the tory party. Unfortunately the party is lead by remainers and they want to remain. Hard brexit was considered better than Mays deal not long ago, yet the push is for Mays deal and taking hard brexit off the table. Yet hard brexit is a very good and strong option even the EU worries about (gives us a competitive advantage in their words).
"Or energy policy, where parliament can declare that nuclear fusion will solve all our power supply needs, and that it will be available in six weeks time...."
Funny you mention power because the EU push for green is one of the problems. That and Tony Blair being a moron (followed by further morons).
"I found that using facts in a debate with leavers is asking for a fight. It's pretty clear that most have a decided position, and it's not based on facts and logic. This is the norm for most politics, and why the "informed voter" is a myth."
I understand that. I do see that too. I also have exactly the same problem with remainers. Look at how many times I have had to correct the amazing lies which then they will continue to repeat anyway. Their view is the only one and no facts are allowed in. That is why I try to keep to the facts in these discussions because even if the one I respond to is blind beyond their view the people reading might not be.
"* I recognize that identifying what leavers want is very hard, since it's mainly about what they don't want, and that most of the time those "nays" are contradictory. Or undefined. Or are words that means something different to them than me."
Very true. But the different people with different perspectives unite on the common problem. The same exists for remainers who have different views of the EU and its direction yet for them they unite on the common problem.