back to article Apple: You can't sue us for slowing down your iPhones because you, er, invited us into, uh, your home... we can explain

Apple is like a building contractor you hire to redo your kitchen, the tech giant has argued in an attempt to explain why it shouldn't have to pay customers for slowing down their iPhones. Addressing a bunch of people trying to sue it for damages, the iGiant's lawyers told [PDF] a California court this month: "Plaintiffs are …

  1. Ole Juul Silver badge

    More like vampires?

    That's funny, but frankly I just consider it more like a home invasion.

  2. Efer Brick

    I used to have a dog with no legs...

    His name was Cigarette, we'd take him out for a quick drag, every so often.

    Lame dog, lame joke, but this has to be the lamest thing I've ever heard.

    1. cornetman
      Coat

      Did you hear about the dog surrounded by four trees?

      He didn't have a leg to stand on.

      Boom-boom!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        My dogs got no nose.

        1. Korev Silver badge

          Then how does he smell?

          1. upsidedowncreature

            Well obviously he can't because he's missing vital olfactory organs.

          2. Alister Silver badge
        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Which dogs?

        3. Martin
          Headmaster

          My dogs got no nose.

          No. My dog's got no nose.

          Sigh.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Why are dogs afraid of going into space?

        because of the vacuum.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Your right

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            My right?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              No! Your other right!

        2. 's water music Silver badge

          >Why are dogs afraid of going into space?

          because of the vacuum.

          I thought they might have heard what happened to Laika

    2. Tigra 07 Silver badge
      Joke

      RE: Efer Brick

      "I used to have a dog with no legs..."

      What do you call your dog with no legs?

      Anything you like, he's not gonna come!

  3. macjules Silver badge

    Like or Dislike?

    Just be thankful that Apple do not publish pictures of your home online, asking its slaves or fanbois, sorry, 'users', to like or to dislike, as Facebook might do.

  4. Richard 12 Silver badge

    Interesting argument

    If you hired a builder to refit your bathroom and they decided to trash your kitchen, that'd be criminal damage.

    Sounds like you're pleading guilty Apple. Maybe you should get better lawyers?

    1. Ian Michael Gumby Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Interesting argument

      If you hired a builder to refit your bathroom and they decided to trash your kitchen, that'd be criminal damage.

      Sounds like you're pleading guilty Apple. Maybe you should get better lawyers?

      Naw.

      Now you know why California legalized Marijuana to help these lawyers get creative.

      1. martinusher Silver badge

        Re: Interesting argument

        That builders argument reminds me of the Fawlty Towers episode "The Builders". Its kind of appropriate seeing as Apple has positioned itself as an Irish company "for tax reasons".

        I do sympathize with them, though. They're used to a fanboi base that will pay through the nose for their premium product without realizing that the downside is that base has 'expectations' about how their products are going to perform over the long term. This has left them in a bit of a bind; they either leave things alone, prematurely end of life batteries and potentially expose themselves to lots of Applecare claims or they slow things down a bit to conserve battery life so the battery collapses after the phone's planned obsolescence date. The one thing that would be unexpected was the notion that Apple users would regard any interference with their phones as a tort and be prepared to sue in civil court.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Interesting argument

          Other phone makers use the same battery energy store tech. So how do they deal with the battery performance deteriorating? Do they just go along with the battery discharging steadily to about 60% and then the phone shuts down at the first time the phone requires a higher current surge?

          Or do they have another way of reducing or smoothing the load on old batteries?

          1. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: Interesting argument

            "So how do they deal with the battery performance deteriorating?"

            They let customers replace the old battery with a new one.

            [Joke icon because ....]

          2. Voyna i Mor Silver badge

            Re: Interesting argument

            Bigger batteries hence lower initial internal resistance.

            Lower peak power CPU.

            Notice that the single threaded performance of iPhones is much, much higher than Android phones?

            For very rough comparability, an iPhone 6s has a 1.7AH battery and a similar size Sony XZ1C has a 2.8AH battery. The Sony has about 50% longer typical run time suggesting the average current draw is comparable, but presumably the battery internal resistance (which is what causes the sudden shutdowns, a current surge causes the voltage to drop below reset trip) is much lower than that of the iPhone.

    2. Jonathon Green
      Mushroom

      Re: Interesting argument

      Actually on previous experience if I hired a builder in to refit my bathroom and they trashed the kitchen for no obvious reason I’d be totally unsurprised. In fact I’d probably be pathetically grateful that they’d left at least one wall standing.

      Your Builder May Vary...

      1. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

        Re: Interesting argument

        Actually on previous experience if I hired a builder in to refit my bathroom and they trashed the kitchen for no obvious reason I’d be totally unsurprised.

        Based on my experience, I'd at least be surprised that the builder had even turned up at my house as requested.

        (how do you know Jesus was a carpenter? Only a qualified tradesman can disappear of the face of the earth for a few days with no rational explanation)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Interesting argument

          Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese,

          "(how do you know Jesus was a carpenter? Only a qualified tradesman can disappear of the face of the earth for a few days with no rational explanation)"

          So so true !!! :)

    3. DaLo

      Re: Interesting argument

      To me it sounds like Apple are arguing, if you hired a Window Cleaner and they stole your TV it is your fault.

    4. DropBear Silver badge

      Re: Interesting argument

      Also, if you contracted someone to rearrange your kitchen but found your walls 25% closer after the operation I reckon you'd be pretty pissed...

      1. JimboSmith Silver badge

        Re: Interesting argument

        Also, if you contracted someone to rearrange your kitchen but found your walls 25% closer after the operation I reckon you'd be pretty pissed...

        A mate hired some builders to redo his kitchen. He was very puzzled when they appeared to be building the island to one side and not in the middle of it. He asked why and they claimed that it looked better there. He told them to fix it and either follow the plans or feck off.

        One retailer I worked for had an idiot in charge of the showrooms. So I turned up at a new showroom before the building work commenced to take measurements and check services/power. I recommend the till be placed in one spot because the data points are there along with power sockeets. So I go back to cable the place and install equipment as the shopfitters are nearing completion. I discover to my amazement that the small back office/stockroom is now about 45cm narrower and 25cm shallower. The showroom is similar because there are false walls everywhere. There are also far fewer power sockets on the walls with one wall totally devoid of them. That same wall has no data ports either all of which is a worry given according to the plans that wall will have the till. There was even the physical counter that had been built to take the till but no ports. I pointed this out to the builders/shopfitters who just said that's what we were told to do and presented me with the plans they had. The idiot had made the changes and obviously had no idea the problems they would cause. The sockets/ ports had been stripped off the brick wall as well to add insult to injury. The counter had to be moved to the other side of the room and away from the office/stockroom which had been a key feature of the plan. He was fired for something else a few months later and I slept much easier as a result.

        1. ibmalone Silver badge

          Re: Interesting argument

          A mate hired some builders to redo his kitchen. He was very puzzled when they appeared to be building the island to one side and not in the middle of it. He asked why and they claimed that it looked better there. He told them to fix it and either follow the plans or feck off.

          More of an isthmus then?

    5. Nonymous Crowd Nerd

      Re: Interesting argument

      Or maybe they should just plead guilty.

      Or, alternatively, the court should pronounce summary judgement against them, impose a fine well into the billions, ensure that the proceeds are distributed to iPhone owners worldwide, and rule that there is absolutely no leave to appeal. Something like this is what these tech giants and their lawyers need to teach them a lesson.

      1. Waseem Alkurdi

        Re: Interesting argument

        Or, alternatively, the court should pronounce summary judgement against them, impose a fine well into the billions, ensure that the proceeds are distributed to iPhone owners worldwide, and rule that there is absolutely no leave to appeal. Something like this is what these tech giants and their lawyers need to teach them a lesson.

        And I dream that Linux conquers the world and that all data-slurp CEOs are tried and found guilty of grand treason, arson (of the CPUs they overheated with their ads), and some sabotage charge or another.

        Dream, my mate.

      2. Potemkine! Silver badge

        Re: Interesting argument

        Or maybe they should just plead guilty.

        A GAFA would acknowledge being wrong?! Over Zuck's dead body!

  5. Mycho Silver badge

  6. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Facepalm

    "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

    Actually, you might be right about that, Apple, and I'll give you that : you have no duty to disclose the true abilities of your technology.

    Unfortunately for you, tech has used its abilities as a reason to buy it since the IT craze began. We bought new computers because the processors and data bus and memory were better and by how much was a quantified, verified amount. We bought new televisions because they had that many more pixels and that higher refresh rate.We are constantly on the lookout for the new figures that will prove that our new acquisition is quantifiably better than the last.

    So you go on and pretend that you have no "duty" to tell your customers just exactly what it is they're getting for half their monthly salary (or more). On the other hand, stop complaining that you don't understand why your stuff isn't selling so well anymore.

    1. ThatOne Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

      > So you go on and pretend that you have no "duty" to tell your customers just exactly what it is they're getting for half their monthly salary (or more). On the other hand, stop complaining that you don't understand why your stuff isn't selling so well anymore.

      On the other hand, Rolls Royce never sold a single car on its technical specs. People buy the "newest Apple", not a "better phone". The problem arises just when they realize their apple turned into a lemon.

      1. DavCrav Silver badge

        Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

        "On the other hand, Rolls Royce never sold a single car on its technical specs. People buy the "newest Apple", not a "better phone". The problem arises just when they realize their apple turned into a lemon."

        I have never seen Rolls Royce engineers offer to replace the plugs, and secretly remove two cylinders from the engine while they are at it either.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I have never seen Rolls Royce engineers

          well, have you ever seen RR engineers? Who knows what they replace and SECRETLY remove when they're at it ;)

          1. MonkeyCee Silver badge

            Re: I have never seen Rolls Royce engineers

            "well, have you ever seen RR engineers? "

            No, because they are paid to be silent and invisible. Like the butler :)

        2. Cynic_999 Silver badge

          Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

          A farmer friend of mine in what was then Rhodesia regularly used his Rolls to inspect his extensive and rather rugged fields. One day after a liquid lunch he drove it into a ditch and broke a half-shaft getting it out. He took it to his local garage, who contacted RR (UK) to order a replacement shaft. After a few days he called the garage to enquire about progress, and the bemused owner told him that a team of RR mechanics had arrived, having flown in from the UK and hired his workshop for a week or two, saying they would sort it out.

          When they left, his battered Roller had been restored to mint condition - and there was note left stating, "We found no defects on your vehicle. We have however taken the opportunity to perform a routine service free of charge under its lifetime guarantee. You will find a new Landrover registered to yourself parked on the forecourt - we respectfully invite you to make use of this vehicle, compliments of Rolls Royce for all future farm work, and we trust you will continue to enjoy your Rolls Royce appropriately."

          I guess those were the days!

      2. Tigra 07 Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

        "The problem arises just when they realize their apple turned into a lemon"

        I prefer iPotato

        1. sprograms

          Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

          Which Tim will Insanely Grate.

      3. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

        On the other hand, Rolls Royce never sold a single car on its technical specs.

        I'm pretty sure the technical abilities of the early Rolls Royce cars were their main selling point.

        From the WIkipedia page...

        In spite of his preference for three- or four-cylinder cars, Rolls was impressed with the Royce 10, and in a subsequent agreement on 23 December 1904 agreed to take all the cars Royce could make. There would be four models:

        a 10 hp (7.5 kW), two-cylinder model selling at £395 (£40,000 in 2014),

        a 15 hp (11 kW) three-cylinder at £500 (£50,000 in 2014),

        a 20 hp (15 kW) four-cylinder at £650 (£60,000 in 2014),

        a 30 hp (22 kW) six-cylinder model priced at £890 (£90,000 in 2014)

        So: 4 choices, each at a different price point, based on their technical specs.

        1. matt 83

          Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

          Don't think Rolls Royce view wikipedia as approved marketing material... They are famous for quoting things like engine power as "adequate" rather than giving actual numbers.

          1. Jonathon Green

            Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

            I liked it when RR released the first incarnation of the Bentley Turbo and when pressed described its power output as “adequate plus 30%”... :-)

          2. Shades

            Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

            "They are famous for quoting things like engine power as "adequate" rather than giving actual numbers."

            Not actual numbers like page 13 of the Wraith brochure?

            Or pages 25, 26, 27 of the Phantom brochure?

            How about pages 42, 43 and 44 of the Ghost brochure?

            Or maybe page 26 of the Dawn brochure?

            1. Jonathon Green

              Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

              That’s relatively recent in RR terms. They only started disclosing actual outputs when (IIRC) the German TuV required it as part of their homologation process some time in the ‘80s...

        2. Scott Wheeler
          Headmaster

          Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

          You can't convert hp in to kW. These are not "bhp", i.e. brake horsepower, measured on a dynometer. They are "taxable horsepower" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower), calculated from the bore (not the stroke!) and number of cylinders of the engine according to a standard formula. My modern 1200 Triumph motorcycle would have 13.5hp according to this formula, but is claimed to develop 135bhp.

          1. Voyna i Mor Silver badge

            Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

            There was a government committee set up to decide how to tax engines. It was called the Horse Power Ratings Committee.

            There are excellent theoretical grounds for basing theoretical horsepower on bore rather than stroke, which would be tedious and off topic to go into here. However, in the time that the committee took to come up with its formula, improvements in metallurgy and lubrication allowed the use of higher piston speeds. As the punters liked to see CC as well as HP, the manufacturers simply started making long stroke engines, thus getting more horsepower for the same taxation band.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

      Difficult balance to strike here.

      Personally I am 100% for fully informing customers. The problem is that informing customers doesn't always lead to informed customers.

      For a start, lithium batteries have a shelf life from the moment they are produced, used or not. Well manufactured batteries may indeed last years, but guaranteeing that beyond one year is something I have not seen done anywhere. I have a Bosch drill whose lithium pack is now 10 years old and still works, but an identical other one died a few years back. My current Macbook went 4 years before I had to replace the cells due to swelling, my previous one clocked up 6 years.

      Secondly, usage matters. Batteries last best if they have full charge/discharge cycles - a laptop pretty much living off a power cord will not have a battery pack that lasts long. Phones which are charged nightly or more often due to the &^%$ idiotic designer idea that being 0.5mm thinner is more important for a phone than lasting a whole day also don't do well on batteries - somehow, chargers don't seem to be able to address that. In this respect I think that batteries in gear should *always* be mounted in such a way that they're easy to replace. If there's one directive that would reduce the mountain of old electronics, it's better battery care and the ability to replace it - any device. Of course, we'll get a bigger battery mountain instead, so some forward thinking of recycling there would be welcome.

      Thirdly, it does not matter how good it is what you tell customers - you will always hit people who are more keen to be upset than others. Sometimes because they have no life, sometimes because they're trying to milk it (which tends to involve lawyers because they'll always profit, whatever the outcome is). If a battery goes up in flames because of overload on high CPU levels, clocking it down is the right thing to do if the customer does not want the battery replaced, despite the price lowered so much that it became to good not to do (but only AFTER they caught bad press about it, which one hopes should have been educational to them) - but you ought to tell the customer. If you don't, and someone finds out, well, we know what happens then, and deservedly so.

      On the other hand, the moment you tell people about it the press and idiots are all over you and the obligatory lawsuits are quick to follow too. Disclosure is still the better option, but I can see what the hesitation was about. Remember that Apple started to disclose the conditions in its factories? They got complained about - few noticed that the competition kept their mouths firmly shut in the hope that nobody would ask them to do the same, for good reasons as it turned out later. Ditto for recycling.

      I am for disclosure, and I think Apple is busy learning that that is the way to go too but it's not an easy path. It is, however, in my opinion the best.

      1. doublelayer

        Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

        I agree with most of your points, but there is a difference between what they said, "We only warranty these batteries for a year" and what they now say that means "Your battery will only last a year, and if it lasts longer, you should be grateful." They only warranty the devices and all their components for a year because the users are likely the cause of damage after the year, and also they have found that time period to be financially useful to them. The components can and should last much longer than that. Their claim alleges a thing that is not a fact, and they are trying to use it to say that they can do anything they like that affects the hardware as long as the hardware is more than a year old.

      2. David 18

        Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

        I also agree with most of your point, except " Batteries last best if they have full charge/discharge cycles - a laptop pretty much living off a power cord will not have a battery pack that lasts long. "

        Not with Li-ion batteries. You want one of those to last well, keep it topped up as often as possible.

        It was an eye opener for me when I found out, and why I got 5+ good years out of my Samsung S5 battery.

        https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

        1. ibmalone Silver badge

          Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

          Worth pointing out (for anyone not reading the link in full), you ideally don't want to keep it topped all the way up, as 100% is bad (which is how I killed my S4 battery...), somewhere around 70-80% allowing discharge to 25% will preserve capacity for longer.

          1. imaginarynumber

            Re: "Apple had no duty to disclose the facts regarding software capability and battery capacity."

            My Vaio (by default) os set to only charge to 80%, however given that I do most of my computer work in the pub, I soon changed the default setting to charge to 100%

  7. David Kelly 2

    Sue-happy lawyers need new BMWs.

    Apple says CPU is X MHz and runtime is Y hours.

    When the battery wears which parameter do you make effort to preserve? Can’t have both, one must degrade. I stand with Apple, expect my phone function until I reach my next charge.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "When the battery wears which parameter do you make effort to preserve?"

      Neither. You replace the battery. At least, that's what you do in any other version of reality because batteries are items with a shorter life than the rest of the components and should be treated as consumables..

    2. JohnFen Silver badge

      "When the battery wears which parameter do you make effort to preserve?"

      How about notifying the user of the problem and letting them decide?

      1. ibmalone Silver badge

        Yes, in theory it's a useful feature, and my Sony actually has pretty much this, "Stamina mode" (with a variety of levels and the option to leave on or kick in at a configurable level of battery above 15%) and "Ultra stamina mode" (very aggressive, disables internet and most applications, has to be turned on by user). Apple's problem is in not telling the user, and purely by accident I'm sure, doing it in a way that disguises the battery being a problem so they think the phone is getting slow and they'd better get a new one...

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          "Yes, in theory it's a useful feature, and my Sony actually has pretty much this, "Stamina mode" (with a variety of levels and the option to leave on or kick in at a configurable level of battery above 15%) and "Ultra stamina mode" (very aggressive, disables internet and most applications, has to be turned on by user)."

          -----

          Apple has a pop up that appears at 20% and again at 10% offering the option to go into low power mode if the user chooses. That's different than running the phone within the capabilities of a knackered battery.

    3. Dimmer

      Ohhhh it’s my fault?

      My wife’s phone updates. 15 min the battery’s dead. Oh it’s my fault, the battery is too old. Replaced the battery, full charge - dead in 15 min. Oh it’s my fault, you have to update to the latest iOS version. Dead 15 min. Oh, it’s my fault, I have too many apps. Wipe the phone, full charge, dead 15 min. Oh it’s my fault. I am using it wrong, power it off completely and it keeps a charge. Wow! It really was my fault.

      It is really a usb coffee cup warmer, I thought it was a phone.

      And just to make sure there is no proof, I am not allowed to go back to the original software version.

    4. Mark 85 Silver badge

      Built in obsolescence?

      I thought it was an Apple design function. First the battery is glued into place and then they charged a small fortune (as phone batteries go) to replace it. And it only lasts about a year? Requires one of their Geniuses to replace it and you need to schedule an appointment where I am. Really?

      I have an old Samsung flip phone I've been using heavily for about 10 years now. I've replaced the battery twice. Didn't take a Genius to do it, just pop off the back and replace. Batteries run about $25 or so. Wife has an Android phone, same deal: remove replace battery herself and hers with heavy usage also lasts about 2 years or so.

      I'm believing Apple does want folks to replace the phone instead of replacing the battery. Otherwise, why make it a hassle to change?

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Built in obsolescence?

        Requires one of their Geniuses to replace it and you need to schedule an appointment where I am. Really?

        ----

        It takes about 5 minutes or less with a cheap kit from ebay and even I with my poor near vision can do it.

        At least up to model 6S. I think the water proof ones are a bit trickier.

        And the cheap batteries on Ebay often perform better than the Apple ones.

  8. Tom 38 Silver badge

    This is factually incorrect

    Vampires can't enter your house unless invited, but even if you invite them in you aren't powerless to stop them. Try holy water, death breath!

    1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

      Re: This is factually incorrect

      Just like bailiffs, tv licensing folk, and mormons!

    2. Saruman the White

      Re: This is factually incorrect

      Lemons are good. Cutting there head of and boiling it in vinegar is preferred in some places.

      Read Carpe Jugulum by the late, great Terry Pratchet for some more ideas.

      1. Alister Silver badge

        Re: This is factually incorrect

        Cutting their head off and boiling it in vinegar is preferred in some places.

        And it works on humans too!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: This is factually incorrect

          careful about that humour, you know. Cause some of my superiors have doubts it's humour at all and as it happens they're also looking to prove policing is efficient despite all the cuts...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: This is factually incorrect

        Hiding one of their socks works for vampyres, not so sure about bailiffs or religious evangelists

        1. Mark 85 Silver badge

          Re: This is factually incorrect

          For bailiffs, religious evangelists and let's add lawyers.. you have to remove their feet.

    3. Ken 16 Silver badge
      Childcatcher

      Re: This is factually incorrect

      Holy water used to work on iPhones too, not sure it will kill them these days

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: This is factually incorrect

        Holy water used to work on iPhones too, not sure it will kill them these days

        I think this is addressed by putting the iPhone in a bag of blessed rice

  9. ma1010 Silver badge
    Pirate

    Attitude

    I know this is written by lawyers trying ANYTHING to stop a lawsuit. But look at the underlying attitude they are displaying toward users of Apple products! One would assume what the attorneys say is approved by management, so one has to wonder if the attitude displayed in the court filing doesn't reflect management's attitude toward Apple customers. Who could read this and want to buy anything from Apple?

    I don't doubt that Android manufacturers (and especially Google) share the same attitude, or worse, toward their customers, but they don't generally trumpet it loudly.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Attitude

      If I spend £1000 on a phone, the bastard better last at least 5 years before I even have to consider replacing it.

      However, I have a brain so am more likely to spend £200 on an Android handset that will last three years before it needs replacing, and put the extra £800 towards something more useful such as a full service, new set of tyres and my next years insurance on my car. YMMV.

      1. Nick Kew Silver badge

        Re: Attitude

        Three years?

        The only 'phone that didn't last me a lot longer than three years was basically defective - to put it politely. The current Moto G - one of the first to support LTE - is coming up for five years, and I've not heard of anything on the market that would motivate me to change it.

        1. ThatOne Silver badge

          Re: Attitude

          I'm currently using a Samsung Note 2 bought in 2012, original battery, still going strong. Well, instead of a day (and a half), the battery now only lasts half a day on normal use, but that's nothing a new battery wouldn't fix (the battery is removable), after which it should be good to go for another 6-7 years.

          I consider that phone to have definitely been money well spent, and won't change it unless I'm sure I get a similar bargain. One thing is sure, I'll certainly won't shell out a thousand for something built to last a single year. That would be wrong on so many levels (83.33 per month, reckless pollution, etc.)...

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Attitude

            "built to last a single year. "

            Minimum 2 year warranty across the 28 nations of the EU, as Apple were reminded of during a court case they lost in Italy. In the UK there is also a reasonable expectation of how long a device should last which could increase some customer rights to 5 years or beyond to include some repair or refund cost, possible pro-rata on older items. (a non-user replaceable battery could be a fun legal exercise)

            1. SImon Hobson Silver badge

              Re: Attitude

              Actually the only limit is the 6 year statute of limitation for civil cases - the law specifies "reasonably durable" without specifying what that means. Clearly if you paid a fiver for a second hand phone off a market stall then your expectations might not be too high; but when you've paid perhaps getting on for a month's take home pay then you'd expect it to last pretty well.

              As others have commented, I;ve had phones last "a long time" - so long in fact that I really can't remember how long. I think I used my Treo 650 for over a decade and only upgraded when I just couldn't get by without "modern" features like WiFi, larger screen, web browser that can cope with modern web pages, etc. I've had a Moto G (early model) for a good few years, and only replaced that (I've still got it and still use it for some things) because one of the lasses upgraded to an S8 and I got her S6.

              I hope the appellants' lawyers pick up on this "can't expect it to last more than a year" and (metaphorically) really run Apple's nose in it.

              1. werdsmith Silver badge

                Re: Attitude

                You get 6 months statutory warranty by law. The 12 months is the goodwill extension from the manufacturer. The 5/6 year thing is for defects that were present at the time of manufacture and the onus is on the buyer to prove it.

            2. EnviableOne Bronze badge

              Re: Attitude

              NOrway have even more restrictive laws. I believe you are entitled to return to the vendor for repair or replacement upto 5 years from the date of purchase

        2. Rob Fisher

          Re: Attitude

          How are you making sure you are getting prompt security patches after 3 years?

      2. MonkeyCee Silver badge

        Re: Attitude

        "However, I have a brain so am more likely to spend £200 on an Android handset that will last three years before it needs replacing,"

        Phones are commodity items now. There is a price point, which is about 200 eurodollarpounds, where you can get all the features that are "good enough" in a new phone. At about 600 local currancy units is the next price point for top quality. Between them you might get appropriate (IMHO) compromises, so better camera but remaining components the same. The "flagship" phones are status symbols, so they could probably double their price and still sell plenty.

        Same goes for most commodity products. A double bed base is about 200 eurodollarpounds, plus whatever else they can persuade you to pay. None of the extras makes a significant difference to it's function as a bed, but you can spend 2-3k on a base easily.

  10. ratfox Silver badge
    Joke

    "Hello! Do you have a minute to talk about Dracula?"

    "No- wait, Dracula?"

    "Yes!"

    "You're vampires?"

    "Yes. We have pamphlets."

    "Vampires have missionaries?"

    "Where else would new vampires come from?"

    "I assumed you bit people."

    "There are many hurtful stereotypes. May we come in?"

    1. Mooseman Bronze badge

      "Hello! Do you have a minute to talk about Dracula?"

      Shouldn't it be "good evening" in a heavy Bela Lugosi accent?

      1. James Scholes

        I can't believe you're playing to that outdated, and frankly racist stereotype. Also it's okay if a vampire calls themselves a bloodsucker because they reclaimed it, but you shouldn't use it yourself.

        1. Mark 85 Silver badge

          I thought lawyers and venture capitalists had a copyright on "bloodsuckers"?

  11. JohnFen Silver badge

    That's not how it is

    "Sorry you don't like the fact that we knocked down the wall to the lounge and installed a new air vent through the ceiling, but that's just how it is."

    This is faulty logic. If you hire a contractor to do renovations, and the contractor determines that it's necessary to do work that was outside the original deal (such as having to knock down a wall to install a new air vent), the contractor will explain it to you and get your permission before taking that wall out.

    Apple's own analogy demonstrates that they were in the wrong.

    1. LDS Silver badge

      Re: That's not how it is

      Also, if I hire someone to redesign my kitchen, I don't expect when they left that they installed a stove with one cooking place only instead of the previous five, an oven that can't go beyond 80°C, and a refrigerator that don't go below 10°C - but tell me, "hey, we did it so you can save electricity!"

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: That's not how it is

        It's more like "we fitted a flow limiter onto the kitchen tap, so you won't scald someone in the shower when you fill the kettle. Without telling you. Because our water tank scales up real easy." But it's a really crap analogy. More of a Chewbacca defence.

    2. Yorick

      Re: That's not how it is

      Note the argument being made. It’s “the complaint is within contract, not trespass”.

      They’re saying yes, you may bring a contractual claim, but you can’t get us for trespass, because you did allow us in.

      I think it’s a safe bet to assume that the next step will be to say “and the contract allows us to do whatever we damn please”, but I don’t know that we have seen that step yet.

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: That's not how it is

      "the contractor will explain it to you and get your permission before taking that wall out."

      ...and increase the bill accordingly.

  12. Marketing Hack Silver badge
    Headmaster

    Um, the whole "contractor" thing doesn't work...

    The only place where you invite contractors into your home and then you come back and they have done something you didn't authorize is in those home improvement makeover shows. In the real world, you can't just bust out a new skylight or rip the wiring out of someone's kitchen walls when the customer didn't tell you to do that. Otherwise, you end up in court.

    1. fandom Silver badge

      Re: Um, the whole "contractor" thing doesn't work...

      You would, but not for trespassing.

      1. Killfalcon Bronze badge

        Re: Um, the whole "contractor" thing doesn't work...

        Yeah, I'm pretty sure the argument here is "you're suing for the wrong thing. Ergo, this case should go away and you need to start over with the right thing (we'll work out a defence for that later)".

        1. Someone Else Silver badge

          Re: Um, the whole "contractor" thing doesn't work...

          "You're suing it wrong...."

  13. J. R. Hartley Silver badge

    Do they still do it?

    I haven't installed any of the OS updates on my Note9 since I got it, or my S8 before that, just in case.

    I had suspected that this shit was going on long before it was confirmed, and I frankly don't trust any phone company at this stage.

    Can anyone confirm or deny definitively?

    1. Dave K Silver badge

      Re: Do they still do it?

      I'd love some confirmation here as well. Personally I feel that Samsung are one of the biggest culprits here - I've experienced numerous Samsung phones that are super speedy and slick when new, but which start running like a dog's breakfast after a couple of years - even without tons of heavy app usage. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the updates provided by Samsung have the ulterior motive of making the device run increasingly like crap.

      In comparison, my LG G4 is 3 years old and is still very smooth and speedy. I do shun updates where I can for it, I just don't trust them these days - although I have popped a couple on to patch more severe holes.

      1. MattUK

        Re: Do they still do it?

        I'm still running a Galaxy S5 (although it's on it's second battery) and it had got progressively slower. I did a backup, did a factory reset then restored from backup and it was noticeably faster despite having exactly the same apps on it.

        1. J. R. Hartley Silver badge

          Re: Do they still do it?

          A factory reset wont roll back the OS to a previous version though.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Do they still do it?

            >A factory reset wont roll back the OS to a previous version though.

            However, it will roll back all your installed app's, including Google Play.

            Depending on how old the edition of Andriod being run, this can present problems...

        2. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

          Re: Do they still do it? @MattUK

          Even in these days of FSTRIM being in the Android filesystem handling, flash memory handling still causes slowdowns as a device ages.

          Because of the way flash memory is emptied (erased, in large allocation units which are multiples of the filesystem block size), there is a preference built in for it to mark the data deleted, but not actually erase and re-use it. This is because it's probably going to have to shuffle data in the rest of the allocation unit around before it can erase the allocation unit. The more flash RAM you have, the longer it will take to use it all and get to this point.

          So all the time that you have still-to-be used flash memory, the OS will be quite speedy.

          As soon as almost all of the empty flash memory allocation units have been used, the OS has to do some serious housekeeping to shuffle all of the data out of an allocation unit, so it can be erased prior to it being re-used. AFAIK, this is deferred until the last possible time. at which point the performance will hit a brick wall.

          FSTRIM was supposed to be used to prevent this slowdown, but I get the impression that when it was introduced in Android, it didn't actually make a huge difference, IMHO.

          When you wipe the phone and re-flash the original image, it does a bulk erase of the entire flash memory, after which it will run quick again, and start the whole process over.

          In flash SSDs rather than phone memory, because the flash controller is allowed to consume power when the storage device is idle (which a phone won't do, in order to increase battery life), it spends it's idle time performing the housekeeping early, to make sure that you get maximum performance when it is needed.

          This is done at a controller level, as there is block address renumbering going on (for wear leveling and to overcome a process called write disturbance, and also to allow for spare blocks to extend the lifetime of the device), so the data can be copied into a new allocation unit without the OS or filesystem being aware that the data is now in a different portion of the memory.

          1. Dave K Silver badge

            Re: Do they still do it? @MattUK

            Interesting info! Of course, it doesn't explain though why my 3 year old LG handset (16GB of storage) is nice and snappy, whereas my wife's 2 year old Galaxy A3 (16GB storage) runs like a stuttering turd. She's not a heavy phone user either, my phone probably gets used more.

            Not knocking what you've said, but I still stick to believing that Samsung phones are more prone to "performance-rot" than others.

            1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

              Re: Do they still do it? @MattUK

              As a complete guess, maybe the LG android version is actually doing an FSTRIM occasionally, whereas the Samsung version is not.

              When it comes to this level of detail, it is perfectly possible for one manufacturer to decide on different management style than another.

              For general purpose Linux systems (I regard Android as an example of a specialized Linux), it may be that you would have an FSTRIM performed in a cron job for certain types of flash memory. Maybe LG have something similar, and Samsung don't. Or maybe they use different flash controllers that handle the flash housekeeping differently.

              This is all guesswork on my part.

    2. xanda
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Do they still do it?

      "...I frankly don't trust any phone company at this stage."

      For sure they are all dubiously motivated and below par in terms of competence.

      Apple aren't the only ones of course but are by far the worst offenders due to their sheer arrogance and downright meanness; being the size they are ought to give them scope to behave better all round.

      In a like experience our Wileyfox was out of service a whole year because of an update which was *forced* i.e. WF held the warranty and support to ransom unless it was installed (see their Facebook page for more). We got it working in the end but *without any help* from WF.

      Given that similar experiences are described the web over, it does seem that perhaps some kind of regulation is now in order, at least?

      We hate to say this and are not even convinced if it's feasible or truly desirable even. Yet it does seem to us that giving consumers the right and ability to use whatever version of whatever OS they want on their own devices ought to sustain an environment where vendors would behave better.

  14. eldakka Silver badge
    WTF?

    Can I use this excuse...

    ...if I get invited in and decide I like their flatscreen and I'll just take that home thank you very much?

    ...or I take all their jewellery?

    ...or I murder everyone on the premises?

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: Can I use this excuse...

      Only at Apple HQ. Nobody else thinks it's a valid defence.

      1. DropBear Silver badge

        Re: Can I use this excuse...

        Well, their backup was probably the Chewbacca defence...

        1. TRT Silver badge

          Re: Can I use this excuse...

          When Han Solo was clearing out the smuggling compartments of the Falcon and discovered a roll of gaffer tape and a tube of KY down there, the Chewbacca Defence suddenly started making sense.

  15. Neoc

    Translating Apple's response: "You're just not suing us right".

  16. jelabarre59 Silver badge

    Premium

    And here's a reason I'm not buying Apple products. They gouge you on premium prices, then turn around a year later and say "screw you". If I'm going to get screwed over by a company for substandard products that die before their time, with only a "screw you" in response, I'd much prefer to pay 1/10th of the price Apple is charging for the dubious privilege. Sorry, but I can get the middle-finger for significantly less than what Apple is charging for it.

  17. Slurpee

    Its not just the battery

    Apple is also playing games with the GPS on older iPhones. They say no, but online forums say yes. I noticed it and it makes the map apps, Uber, Lyft, Waze, etc. almost unusable.

    1. Malcolm Weir Silver badge

      Re: Its not just the battery

      Oo! Oo! I know this one!

      Ahem... You're holding it wrong.

      Thank you!

    2. Nick Kew Silver badge

      Re: Its not just the battery

      Erm, ISTR earlier iphones were widely reported as having defective GPS/maps. How does failure to fix old bugs translate to playing games?

  18. Winkypop Silver badge
    Gimp

    Treat 'em mean

    Keep 'em keen, hey Apple?

  19. Timmy B Silver badge

    Isn't it more like a car than a house? In that if you took your car to be repaired and the mechanic turned round and said, "We fixed it but now if your fuel tank is less than 1/4 full you won't be able to do more than 30mph". All the high priced lawyers arguing against Apple can surely come up with that as a counter argument.

    1. smot

      "All the high priced lawyers arguing against Apple can surely come up with that as a counter argument."

      But these are American lawyers....

      1. Timmy B Silver badge

        "But these are American lawyers...."

        And if I understand them right they are spending too much time chasing would be British princesses to do actual courtroom stuffs.

  20. m0rt Silver badge

    On the subject of slowing things down...

    ...anyone else have a MASSIVE issue going to Mojave on a Macbook Pro 2012?

    It ran fine before. Mojave has just KILLED the thing making it pretty shite for anything other than a few apps at a time. Fairly pissed off because this is the last decent machine Apple made, imho.

    1. PerlyKing

      Re: Mojave on a Macbook Pro 2012

      It ran fine before. Mojave has just KILLED the thing making it pretty shite for anything other than a few apps at a time. Fairly pissed off because this is the last decent machine Apple made, imho.

      It looks like my laziness is paying off - I'm still on Sierra on my 2010 MBP. What's the best Linux distribution for Macs these days?

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: On the subject of slowing things down...

      I maxed my memory out to 16 Mb (ignore the official max of 8 Mb because it's not true) because Mac OS expands every year, sort of like The Blob. Since then it seems okay but the battery doesn't last as long as it did.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: On the subject of slowing things down...

        Don't know why I put megabytes, I mean gigabytes...

        1. A.P. Veening

          Re: On the subject of slowing things down...

          "Don't know why I put megabytes, I mean gigabytes..."

          To err is human, I forgive you ;)

    3. Nick Kew Silver badge

      Re: On the subject of slowing things down...

      Um, I have a macbook pro, and installed Mojave in December. Speed is still perfectly good, but some other things broke. Cut&paste has become a nightmare, as it takes a bolshie attitude to what I try and select, and does dumb things like trying to open a dictionary on a selected[1] word. And LibreOffice broke badly: it keeps hanging and crashing. Round tuits permitting, I shall have to try uninstall/reinstall, or maybe switch to OpenOffice.

      I think mine is more recent than 2012, but it may very well be the 2012 model, as it was an old model just being discontinued when I bought it in about 2016-ish.

      [1] Selected by it, not me.

      1. doublelayer

        Re: On the subject of slowing things down...

        I would guess that Mojave has tried the APFS rewrite again for those with mechanical drives, and that yours may not have worked all that well. A reinstall might fix that. I have been holding back on the Mojave update; I have all the updates installed, but I prefer to do my massive OS updates as clean installs because I don't have a great history with in-place upgrades.

  21. This post has been deleted by its author

  22. Martin Pittaway

    Yah, Yah, Yah.

    All you Android fans. There wouldn't be Android if Apple hadn't invented the smartphone.

    Apple are one of the few companied who do ALL the research and Development. Hardware and Software. Microsoft just do software until recently and then look at the quality of their products by comparison. Android. So full of holes they include a virus scanner as part of the system

    Buy cheap and nasty get a cheap and nasty experience. Your data and photo's splashed everywhere.

    A battery is a consumable no matter what you are using. Use a phone a lot for facebook, link in, twitter etcetera and you are going to use a lot of battery.

    Choose a service provider that's cheap and low signal strength in your area. The phone is going to work hard trying to contact the network - err, using battery.

    Forever sending sms all day (instead of working), use a lot of battery while the phone talks to the network.

    turn off fetch on emails. Only fetch when you access your email client instead go saying sorry when you hear the ping because the advert email is more important than the person you are having a conversation with.

    Choice of a slower phone and longer battery life? Every time. I want to make telephone calls.

    1. DavCrav Silver badge

      Re: Yah, Yah, Yah.

      "Choice of a slower phone and longer battery life? Every time. I want to make telephone calls."

      You must be one of the few people who actually uses their phone as a phone.

    2. BigSLitleP

      Re: Yah, Yah, Yah.

      You didn't just moved the goalposts in your pointless and brain dead rant, you swapped them for a basball mound and moved the entire stadium.

      I have an iPhone, so there goes all that Android nonsense straight away, and that's without the fact that there are many, many good Android devices out there.

      Apple don't make the hardware. The bits are made by other people and assembled by Apple.

      If batteries are consumable, why are they so hard to replace in an Apple device? In fact, at one point Apple said they weren't consumable and shouldn't be replaced. You should replace the phone instead.

      Apple have admitted that they slow the phone down, so your ramble about email fetch, sms and signal are all without merit.

      You don't get to choose if you want a slower phone or a faster phone, Apple make that decision for you.

      Come on fanboy, this isn't a BBC "Have your say" article. This is a technical site. You can't just BS your way through it.

    3. JetSetJim Silver badge

      Re: Yah, Yah, Yah.

      > There wouldn't be Android if Apple hadn't invented the smartphone.

      Apple had timing on their side with the release of smartphones and probably wouldn't exist without their pre-cursors like Palm, Nokia, Motorola and probably others. In the GSM days, when GPRS was created to allow phones to do data, a whole lot of phones were created with "apps" on them to do non-phone things. Hell, you could even write your own if you could get to grips with writing them and pushing your app to the SIM card (still possible now, and it's a horrid way of doing things). Also, apps were on the phone. Form-factors were evolving, andApple weren't the first with touch screens either (see the IBM Simon from 1992). Also, multi-touch screens were purchased by Apple, not invented by it. I would agree, however, that Apple put all of these things they didn't invent into a very attractive package

      > Apple are one of the few companied who do ALL the research and Development. Hardware and Software

      That would be the company that didn't show up or contribute to any of the 3GPP meetings to help out with the specs, and then attempted to bully all the companies that did into accepting FRAND payments much lower than normal?

      > Buy cheap and nasty get a cheap and nasty experience. Your data and photo's splashed everywhere

      Err - if anything Android is more guilty of the data splashing than Apple with all the app data slurping that goes on

      > Forever sending sms all day (instead of working), use a lot of battery while the phone talks to the network.

      SMS uses a trivial amount of power as the data in the SMS is transmitted over a signalling packet - no need to establish data bearers over the radio. It would be all the background apps that suck the life out of your battery - any non-SMS app with notifications from a server requires a data bearer.

      > turn off fetch on emails

      A remarkably good way of not accomplishing anything in the day if you need to receive emails to do work

      > Choice of a slower phone and longer battery life?

      you *can* choose a phone for longer battery life, and that's your choice. Why don't you still use a non-smartphone then? My old Nokia had a battery that lasted weeks. I, however, choose to have some functionality on my phone - I use the GPS on each commute, I communicate with people in different ways during the day, ...

      What people object to is Apple crippling the phone (behind the scenes) to preserve the illusion of a battery that lasts X days (whatever that X is), which is effectively removing functionality from the phone. Personally I think there's still some iffy bits in the Apple battery management system as my wifes 6+ (with a new battery that's less than 3 months old) still craps out the second the phone gets a bit cold - also seen this on friends iPhone X and 7/8 versions.

      1. imaginarynumber

        Re: Yah, Yah, Yah.

        "In the GSM days, when GPRS was created to allow phones to do data,"

        In 2002 Nokia released their first GPRS phone, the 7650. I downloaded the rather oddly named HTML browser (Doris by Anygraff).

        By 2003 3G phones were available in the UK.

        2007, Apple release a GPRS phone. A fool and his money...

    4. MrXavia

      Re: Yah, Yah, Yah.

      "All you Android fans. There wouldn't be Android if Apple hadn't invented the smartphone."

      The first iPhone was not the first smart phone, the LG Prada was out before it, and without Android there would be something else, either Symbian or a Linux based OS not from Google

      "Apple are one of the few companied who do ALL the research and Development. Hardware and Software."

      They brought the touchscreen technology for the iPhone, they buy their screens... it's not all in house

    5. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Yah, Yah, Yah.

      "if Apple hadn't invented the smartphone."

      Ha Ha! <point and laughs>

      I suppose it only goes to prove if you keep telling the same lie, eventually the idiots will believe it.

    6. desht

      Re: Yah, Yah, Yah.

      " if Apple hadn't invented the smartphone"

      Speaking as a P800/P900 user back in the day (5 years before the iPhone 1), I'm just going to say you're full of shit, fanboi.

    7. imaginarynumber

      Re: Yah, Yah, Yah.

      " There wouldn't be Android if Apple hadn't invented the smartphone."

      Strange... when the iPhone was released I had been using a Windows mobile T-Mobile Ameo for months. It made the iphone look like an under powered toy. I had a 5" touchscreen (vs 3.5"), the same amount of local storage (plus the option of using a Mini SD card), more RAM, a faster processor, 3.5G (vs GPRS), GPS (vs erm, nothing), stereo speakers, a removable battery, a "smart cover", a higher resolution camera (that was also capable of recording video), a front facing camera (also capable of video recording), a camera flash, Adobe flash, a desktop class browser (opera). touch gestures (eg double tap to zoom). Oh and I could download apps, either from apps stores or via my PC (vs erm, nothing).

      Shortly after releasing the Ameo, HTC released the fat finger friendly HTC Touch which supported swiping etc. before the iphone.

      IMO the only thing impressive about the iphone was multitouch- it wasn't however the first consumer based multi touch device- AFAIK that was the 2006 JazzMutant Lemur music controller. And hey, whilst kool, how often do users actually use multitouch?

      I know that apple claim to have invented the touchscreen smartphone and even told the courts that they did in the first Apple Vs Samsung case, but to suggest that Android would not exist without iOS would only make sense if you deny the existence of other OSes such as Windows Mobile (which was pretty much a PDA with phone capabilities).

      BTW Windows Mobile continued to out sell iOS(/iPhoneOS) for nearly 2 years.

  23. David 138

    This must be why the new apple office has no walls. Contractor came in and just knocked everything down.

  24. 0laf Silver badge

    Self inflicted trauma here.

    If they'd been open and upfront they wouldn't have an issue.

    i.e.

    (Assuming phone is out of warranty)

    Your phone is older, the battery is not good enough any more. you can either -

    a- pay us to change the battery

    b- allow the performace throttling patch to be applied to stop your phone crashing

    c- not apply the patch and accept your phone will crash

    d- buy a new phone pretty please

    But insted they went for b, without asking then denied it and are now excusing themselves using some stupid argument.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Based on their argument I can presumably walk into an Apple store and wander out with a pocket full of goodies without paying. I mean after all, they did let me through the door.

    And it would be their fault because I have no duty to explain I might nick their stuff.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

      And then when they try to collar you for shoplifting....

      "Are you resisting arrest?"

      "No, you're just holding me wrong"

  26. jmch Silver badge
    WTF?

    Built-in Obsolescence

    "...consumers can't reasonably expect their iPhone batteries to last longer than a year, given that its battery warranty runs out after 12 months."

    Interesting argument to make. Claiming that consumers can't expect anything to last more than warranty is both bizarre AND contrary to the expectation of every consumer on the planet. Clearly a consumer DOES expect anything they buy to work fully and with zero problems until the end of the warranty period. So the court's judgement in this regard is essentially that consumers expect built-in obsolescence to such a degree that it's OK that a device that is fully functioning on the last warranty day is going to break down the next day, and that's somehow expected???

    1. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: Built-in Obsolescence

      This. As a person who doesn't value warranties, I don't pay attention to how long they last. I certainly don't consider them an indication of expected lifespan. If Apple is making the claim that the duration of the warranty is an indication of expected lifespan, then that immediately rules out buying any Apple product for me, as it makes them even more overpriced than I thought they were before.

  27. JimmyPage Silver badge
    WTF?

    As a non Apple owner, all I can ask is

    is it at all possible for Apple kit to be good enough to justify this amount of froth ?

    Seriously ? Are they really that good ?

    Really ?

    1. old_IT_guy

      Re: As a non Apple owner, all I can ask is

      No

    2. JetSetJim Silver badge

      Re: As a non Apple owner, all I can ask is

      YMMV - for quite a few it is good enough.

      Some of the things seem to be implemented very nicely, but you have to commit yourself to stay in the Apple ecosystem to reap the benefits, and this is not what everyone wants.

  28. Ian Emery Silver badge

    Some Apple Users Not as Stupid As Originally Thought!

    I hope they dont take their winnings and use them to buy another IOS device though.

  29. MMR

    Now is the time

    Now is the time to drop the line "How do you like them Apples?"

  30. Big_Boomer

    PWNED

    What? You thought Apple loved you? Bwahahahahaha, Apple loves your MONEY, but never you.

  31. naive

    It must the famous "Apple quality" fanbois brag about

    Which must be a drug induced dream. After 3.5 years of using my Motorola G3 as a radio, 8 hours per day, over 200 days per year, it is still way better than the iPhone 6 my employer gave me for being on-call. Battery still did 3+ days of standby, or 2 days of streaming.

    The iPhone 6 does 4-8 hours of standby with a full charge, and was only used for on-call services 8 weeks per year.

    But Apple is fun at the same time, my employer gave me an iPhone 8 replacement for the broken iPhone 6.

    Just having replaced my privately owned Moto G3 by a G7, it caused cramps from laughter, so old the iPhone 8 looks compared to the Moto, which costs one third of the price.

    If Apple was Ford, they would still be able to sell T-Fords as the latest and greatest invention on wheels.

  32. Peter2 Silver badge

    Apple argued – successfully – in court that consumers can't reasonably expect their iPhone batteries to last longer than a year

    Really?

    It's pretty well established that almost any normal rechargeable battery cell will still provide >80% of the design voltage of the battery after roughly 750 charge/discharge cycles, and will hold >60% to about 1100 charge/discharge cycles before the voltage output of the battery cells starts to drop off on a very, very well understood (but somewhat sharp) curve.

    Charged once a day it is therefore well known and expected that things like laptops will last three years (1095 days) in service before dying sometime afterwards. This has remained the case for about thirty years across three major different types of battery tech (Ni-CD, Ni-MH, Li-ion) with more different classes of electronic equipment than people can count. From professional grade walkie talkies to laptops, it's always been reasonably accurate rule of thumb that you'll get at least a thousand charge/discharge cycles from the battery before replacement. (hence 3 year replacement cycles being ubiquitous across many industries with portable equipment...)

    So how is the iphone battery only lasting a third of that?

    Either it gets three full charge/discharge cycles a day (which I guess is possible with some people?) or it's been specifically designed to become obsolete through an under-provisioned battery that provides insufficient voltage to run the device it's attached to at anything other than ~90% of the initially supplied voltage.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Charged once a day it is therefore well known and expected that things like laptops will last three years (1095 days) in service before dying sometime afterwards.

      <smug>

      I'm a very light user, but even so, the seven-eight days per charge I get on my Pocophone suggests that the battery life isn't going to be the defining characteristic of the phone's useful life.

      /smug

      What is that Apple and their users do that gives their devices such truly appalling battery life?

  33. Benchops

    Their analogy expanded

    You buy your house from us.

    We will make sure your windows/doors/locks are kept up to date as every so often burglars find a way to open our windows or unlock our locks. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN KEEP YOUR HOUSE SAFE. Don't think about it, just let us do it.

    We may also cripple your central heating boiler while we update your locks.

  34. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

    It's obviously a law firm trying to drag lawyering into the IT age somehow.

    Probably very little to do with Apple as such.

    Why hasn't Apply just installed an option to ignore battery wear and let the CPU go full tilt regardless? Or have they?

  35. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    you say vampires

    fanoboi would say "unprallalel enablers" :)

    I don't believe poor suckers being sucked by apple would acknowledge they're in an abusive relationship. No more than those sucked by Google, Facebook or Microsoft, which makes, basically, all of us. We get FREE, the fanbois get a "unique". Everybody pays a price though, and we're all, at least in theory, consenting - and participating - adults.

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is everyone taking crazy pills?

    I don't know about everyone else, but given the choice between my phone performing a task more slowly and my phone turning off, it's a pretty easy sell for the former.

    The French lawsuit claiming the devices were slowed down for 'planned obsolescence' and to 'sell more phones' is laughable. Again, I don't know about anyone else, but a surefire way to get me to buy a new phone is to have it randomly restart when I'm using it.

    People really aren't using their heads here.

    1. doublelayer

      Re: Is everyone taking crazy pills?

      That's not the alternative, or at least it shouldn't be the only alternative. The other option is that it works like any other electronic device; it continues to function at its speed but the battery doesn't last as long. You know, like every other phone or laptop.

      I wouldn't mind it if they put in an option to underclock for increased battery life, which would be useful both as the battery became old and if there won't be convenient access to recharging for a while. However, I have to wonder what they did to their system that meant it would restart randomly rather than just deplete the battery quickly. That smacks of bad design to me, and the workaround, though perhaps not planned obsolescence, becomes a crutch for defective products. The other option is that they did have obsolescence in mind, and specifically designed it to break. I don't know which it is, but I think the former is more likely. Either way, they messed up.

    2. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: Is everyone taking crazy pills?

      "given the choice between my phone performing a task more slowly and my phone turning off, it's a pretty easy sell for the former."

      Except that's not the choice.

    3. ColinTheFish

      Re: Is everyone taking crazy pills?

      My Nokia E7-001 had guys that were better at writing the operating system, so they even warned me just before the battery was going to run out, with a message that came up on the screen: Warning your battery is nearly empty. Please save you work before it shuts down. Shame no-one running the company spotted there's only ever room for 2 operating systems and those are called Android and iOs, as they are designed for a wider range of users and hence more popular. Luckily the guys at Cosmos have also spotted this :)

  37. Robert E A Harvey

    Lawyers

    This has done nothing to shake my conviction that all lawyers are cunts.

    1. RM Myers

      Re: Lawyers

      Have to strongly disagree. Are there lawyers who are cunts - for sure, and worse. But I've also known many lawyers who were not only nice but extremely conscientious and honest. Unfortunately, class action lawyers seem to overwhelmingly fall into the former group, as do many of the so-called "high power" attorneys.

  38. johnnyblaze

    Apple don't tell their users anything because they don't want them to know anything! Apple knows best remember, and an informed user is a user who might, just might, start thinking with their own mind, and god forbid, consider leaving the Apple garden, and Cook et al, can't allow that to happen!

  39. Lee D Silver badge

    Same company that testified before a court of law that their devices are only designed to last a year before breaking.

    Sorry, but why anybody touches their stuff, I'll never understand.

  40. Mike Richards Silver badge

    WHAAAAT?

    The only theory that makes sense is that lawyers are all contributing huge amounts of money to a secret betting pool. Each year there is one winner, with the prize being awarded to the lawyer who makes the most ludicrous claim that is upheld in court.

  41. tfb Silver badge
    Alien

    The saddest thing about all this

    is that, as far as I can tell, what Apple did was actually well-intentioned. The whole slow-down thing is to prevent the problem where some program causes the CPU to draw more power than the ageing battery can deal with causing the battery voltage to fall abruptly, which the power-management in the phone sees, panics and turns the phone off. So instead they deliberately slug the thing so that the maximum power draw is reduced and this doesn't happen: the phone runs more slowly but it doesn't do the abrupt-dying thing. And, of course, if you replace the battery it doesn't even run more slowly.

    But they fucked it up by trying to keep it all secret because they were so frightened about the publicity, with the inevitable result that it leaked and now they have double bad publicity: the initial 'Apple make old phones slow' and the even worse 'Apple don't tell people that they make old phones slow'. It's the equivalent of what happens when someone takes out a superinjunction: they take a bad situation ('Donald eats babies') and turn it into a catastrophic one ('Donald eats babies and bribes their parents to keep quiet').

    1. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: The saddest thing about all this

      "as far as I can tell, what Apple did was actually well-intentioned."

      Maybe. It's honestly hard to know. But let's say they were well-intentioned. If so, it only highlights the abhorrent Apple attitude of "we know what's best for you, and we'll make all the decisions for you. Suck it up."

      The truly sad thing is how far this same attitude has permeated from Apple into the wider computer industry. I see it everywhere these days, and it's horrible.

    2. ibmalone Silver badge

      Re: The saddest thing about all this

      It's an interesting interpretation, I've been through a number of phones and laptops, in which I often killed the batteries. None of them suddenly shut down during operation when working hard, instead they got to the point where the battery ran down quickly. Not saying it's not possible (though that raises the question of why Apple can't handle battery monitoring when other people manage it), but it does seem odd. And rather convenient from the planned obsolescence point of view.

    3. imaginarynumber

      Re: The saddest thing about all this

      "But they fucked it up by trying to keep it all secret because they were so frightened about the publicity"

      Or maybe they were worried that owners might ask why they can't have batteries that they can remove without needing a pentalope screw driver. Personally i suspect it was Apple simply trying to save themselves from legions of fans complaining about the fact that their 13 month old phone kept crashing when it showed less than 30% battery life. Additionally, I suspect that Apple had a few batches of shitty batteries and didn't want to have to pay to have them replaced.

      In and of its self, the power management makes sense- IF the owner is given the option to activate it of their own volition. However we end up back at the desperate attempt to convince owners that Apple products "just work".

  42. N2 Silver badge

    Watch the share price

    Im sure the market will warm to the 'fuck you' attitude.

    Not.

  43. John Savard Silver badge

    The Correct Consumer Response

    Not only should any sane smartphone user refuse to buy any iPhone, they should also refuse to buy any smartphone with Android that doesn't have removable and replaceable batteries.

    Unfortunately, while low-end smartphones still have replaceable batteries, the high-end ones, that cost more, which people would really like to keep for a few years before replacing, almost all have soldered-in batteries these days. So consumers don't have a choice.

    One company has a phone with a battery of the non-replaceable type, but allows consumers to buy a battery replacement kit so they can be their own service technician. Nice try, but that is not the solution I had in mind.

  44. APro

    Battery life - guarantees and warranties.

    From the article:

    "...

    When it was accused of damaging people's property by ruining their batteries, Apple argued – successfully – in court that consumers can't reasonably expect their iPhone batteries to last longer than a year, given that its battery warranty runs out after 12 months.

    ..."

    Really? So here's my first thought. Do the iPhones sold in the EU have the same spec batteries as those sold in the US? If that is the case, then I would equate that to mean that all the iPhones sold in Europe are unfit for purpose under EU law:

    Ref: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm

    "...

    You always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee at no cost, regardless of whether you bought your goods online, in a shop or by mail order.

    This 2-year guarantee is your minimum right, however national rules in your country may give you extra protection.

    If goods you bought anywhere in the EU turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised, the seller must repair or replace them free of charge or give you a price reduction or a full refund.

    ..."

    In my mind, if the product is designed such that the expected failure time is half the basic guarantee of the region then it surely should be recalled and not sold until redesigned, as it's not fit for purpose. The EU text does not make any exception for "batteries"; it covers the whole product.

    I am again noting however that there is the possibility that the same model phones supplied to Europe may have better, longer lasting batteries than those sold in the US, but that just starts up another set of rotating blades for faeces to smother!!!

    Which actually leads me to one final thing to consider - from the EU text:

    "...

    Shops or manufacturers will often offer you an additional commercial guarantee (also called a "warranty"), either included in the price of the product or at an extra cost.

    This can give you better protection but can never replace or reduce the minimum 2-year guarantee, which you always have under EU rules.

    ..."

    One interpretation (and legal types love "interpretation") is that your iPhone battery should be designed to last 3 years - 2 years legal minimum, plus the 12-month "warranty" on top - if bought in the EU. After all, Apple couldn't possibly be offering a warranty less than 2-years, so it must be an extension as it's "additional", right? Especially as Apple was fined roughly £750,000 in 2011 for misrepresenting warranties on products sold in the EU.

    So are EU iPhone batteries that much better than those in the US? The FTC site does not state any legal minimum guarantee, like the EU's, so Apple's stated 12-months "warranty" is it. So to Apple I ask: Which is it - 1, 2, or three years of battery life? Are US citizens getting duff batteries?

    1. TechnicalBen Silver badge

      Re: Battery life - guarantees and warranties.

      Are we trying to be too logical? I think they would blame the trolls under the bridge, or little fairies, if it just meant they could get away with admitting fault!

      At this point, they just do not care.

      1. M.V. Lipvig

        Re: Battery life - guarantees and warranties.

        And why should they care even a little bit? These people will whine, sue, complain, scream, then go to the store and buy another. Out of all of this, the only part Apple hears is KACHING! As for the rest, there's press releases to deny, deflect and refuse responsibility.

    2. A.P. Veening

      Re: Battery life - guarantees and warranties.

      First, there are some exceptions to those two year warranties (perishables and pets are prime examples) and for some things it can be more than two years (at least half of reasonable life expectancy, which can be up to ten years form dish washers and washing machines), but for smart phones those two years is correct. And Apple might even have gotten away with one year batteries, if it provided clear information about that and made those batteries user replaceable.

      Having said that, I don't think the batteries here in Europe are/were any better, they were just quietly replaced under warranty for anybody who complained in the right way (suckers just bought a new iPhone) as Apple definitely learned from the last time they ran into problems here in Europe regarding warranty. But it was done quietly and without fuzz to prevent it from becoming general knowledge.

      1. TechnicalBen Silver badge

        Re: Battery life - guarantees and warranties.

        So you are suggesting the next iPhone should run on printer ink?

  45. Z80Zilog

    1800mah is Not fit for purpose

    Apple fitter a small 1800mah battery to power a large smart phone, its not fit for purpose.

    In general the smaller the capacity the smaller the max current it can provide, thats partly why they had to throttle the phone to stop it prematurely shutting down in cold weather.

    Imagine the kitchen fitters only used 20amp cabling to your 30amp cooker, you complained the wires are getting hot when using the cooker, they “fix” the problem by disconnecting 2 of the hob rings to reduce the current it uses.

  46. Howard Hanek Bronze badge
    Happy

    That's The Fun About 'Legal' Arguments

    They don't NEED to have a basis in reality. They just have to 'sound' reasonable. People judge on sounds not logic.

  47. Ice Cold Beer

    I would’ve kept my old iPhone 6 if the battery hadn’t started to go (unknown to me also slowing it down - before the software update where you could see what was happening) it’s no different to my iPhone 7. I also refuse to pay over the odds for a replacement that doesn’t do anything different to my 7. My next phone will most definitely not be apple... not my watch or my tablet for that matter

    1. M.V. Lipvig

      Sure it will. You just admitted that your 6 dropped performance noticably after an update, so you bought a 7. When Apple does the same thing to your 7, you'll go buy an 8 then gripe about how they throttled your 7 (you won't mention your 6). When they do the same to your 8, rinse and repeat.

      But I hope I'm wrong, and you really do leave the rotting apple tree.

  48. Grease Monkey

    Am I missing something here?

    Apple say that if this is a matter of contact rather than trespass? But surely the description of the update which promised to improve performance and lifetime constitutes a contract. I wouldn't give an Apple product houseroom so I don't know for sure but most updates have a button saying something like agree and install. That sounds pretty much like a contract to me.

    So what if Apple get these lawsuits thrown out? All the complainants need to do is bring new lawsuits for beach of contract. And they can actually cite Apple's argument in this case as evidence.

  49. M.V. Lipvig

    Ultimately, Apple is correct...

    in all of their assertations. If you disagree, your only recourse is to stop buying from them. When I get into a business deal with someone and I feel they treated me in a shady fashion, and they don't work to make it right, I stop doing business with them for anything.

    I owned an Apple phone for a while, until its performance dropped off horribly right around the time they rolled out the newest version after owning it for a year or so. The performance actually dropped off after a software update right after the new version. When I had had enough with the bad performance, I switched to an Android phone. It lasted 5 years, until I irreparably damaged it. I'm now on my second Droid, which I've had about 4 years or so, and it still works about as well as it did when I bought it. My next phone will likely be a droid, if I ever need to buy another.

    If you don't like what Apple did, stop buying from them. If they lose enough business, they'll change. They don't care how mad you get at them and they don't care if you're happy at all if you keep buying from them.

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