back to article Do not adjust your set: Hats off to Apple, you struggle to shift iPhones 'cos you're oddly ethical

In the late '90s, Eric Schmidt was an accessible tech CEO with a problem. Novell's product was so good and so reliable nobody needed to upgrade it. If one day people decided to stop using their current version, they wouldn't switch to another version of Novell, the one that Eric was trying to sell, but something else entirely. I …

  1. mrdalliard
    Thumb Up

    Have to agree....

    The two reasons why I've not upgraded from my 6S:

    - iOS12 Has generally been OK.

    - My phone has a headphone socket.

    Not sure I have enough "courage" to abandon that one yet....

    1. A Non e-mouse Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Have to agree....

      My phone has a headphone socket.

      I have an iPhone 8 and I miss that headphone socket as I don't always have the same headphones with me and the adapter is never with the headphones I currently have.

      1. ratfox Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Have to agree....

        I started with bluetooth earbuds a couple of weeks ago; I have to say it's easier to get used to it than I thought it would be. Because of the lack of long wires, it's much simpler to carry them around wherever you go. When I forget to charge them, I'll probably curse the world for the rest of the day, but so far I don't miss the wires.

        The only issue I can see is that wireless headphones are so convenient that a lot more people isolate themselves from the world while commuting or having coffee. I'll quote the mandatory relevant XKCD

        1. D@v3

          Re: Headphone jack

          i've been mostly using bluetooth headphones and speakers for a few years and generally have very few issues with them, but there are still times when being able to plug in a pair of headphones, or speakers, or connect into a stereo / hi-fi that is very useful, and i'd rather not have to carry around an adapter, just in case.

          Also, if say, i am in the car with my phone connected to the Aux with the lightning adapter, how am i supposed to charge it?

          1. therealmav

            Re: Headphone jack

            Also, if say, i am in the car with my phone connected to the Aux with the lightning adapter, how am i supposed to charge it?

            you cant, but you could

            1. connect it to the cars usb socket instead and playback through that and charge at the same time

            2. use bluetooth to play music, whilst charging thro lightning

        2. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

          Re: Have to agree....

          XKCD has evolved to the point where it can be used as a counter-point too: https://xkcd.com/2055/

    2. Cavehomme_
      FAIL

      Re: Have to agree....

      - No fingerprint ID

      - No headphone socket

      - ridiculous notch

      - glass back, making it very fragile

      - no longer the SE or 4" option who prefer to carry a phone in our pockets, and have something bigger in our trousers taking up more space.

      - No longer a phone on the range retailing at £300 or less (SE)

      That's just the phones! Another long list of where Macbooks have gone wrong.

      Tim Nice But Dim is not the right man to lead the company. He's also let the arrogant tosser St Ives and Dame Burberry turn the company into producing impractical devices for shiny fashion victims in the consumer sector.

      1. steviebuk Silver badge

        Re: Have to agree....

        It was Steve Jobs that did.

      2. Oodles of Noodles

        Re: Have to agree....

        Just so very stunned about your comment regarding 'Tim-nice-but-dim'. I mean, he says such nice things about you and everything you have accomplished.

        Joking aside, I ( as many other people have ) went through the journey of Ericsson, Sony, Android, Apple 6s, back to Android Google Nexus, Another Sony, back to Apple 6s, and finally have paid the so-called 'idiot tax' for an Apple Xs.

        I really like the phone and the camera. I hate that I have to use google maps and all the tracking it entails 'cos the apple version is just not up to speed.

        I like the device. You don't. I do not think you are an idiot for not liking it or the price.

        Each to their own.

      3. Neil Anderson

        Re: Have to agree....

        I thought fingerprint ID was the cat's meow till I tried Face ID.

    3. Tim99 Silver badge
      Gimp

      Re: Have to agree....

      Earlier this year I upgraded my 6 to an X. I was quite happy with the 6 until it started to have intermittent problems charging. A bit of experimentation showed that the problem was with the lightening connector, and that cleaning it did not improve things. I was just about to go on a longish trip and my wife suggested that I replace the phone - At her suggestion (because the screen was better, honest guv), I bought the X instead of a 7 or 8.

      I must say that, for me, it was a noticeable improvement. FaceID seems to work better than fingerprints (I suspect that may be because many older people’s prints are relatively indistinct) and swiping up seems easier than clicking. I did not own many 3.5mm accessories, so that was not a problem. BUT the article is correct, I will not be replacing the X unless I have too (or until my wife wants to upgrade to my X?).

      1. Ed

        Re: Have to agree....

        I've noticed with my parents how Touch ID was often an issue for them. I was skeptical about Face ID, especially for payments but I've actually found it works better in almost every situation. The only real issue is unlocking the phone while it's in landscape mode which can be a bit annoying.

      2. ThomH Silver badge

        Re: Have to agree.... @Tim99

        To one-up you, hopefully not to your disappointment: my 6s was similarly affected — charging slowly devolved from remembering to put the cable in at the proper angle, to wiggling it about a bit until charging started, to wiggling it about a lot and then putting the thing down very carefully. I tried compressed air, I tried a vacuum cleaner, I tried sufficiently-miniature tooth-cleaning products. I believed the thing was done for.

        I booked an appointment at the Apple Store that I pass every day anyway, to formalise the bad news and to ask about trade-in prices but they did quite the opposite: the assistant tried cleaning it with a specialised small brush, to limited effect, then peered in and confirmed that some of the pins looked like they'd ended up bent a little too far to retain their necessary springiness.

        Then she took the phone into the back room for about fifteen minutes, used an unspecified machine on the thing, and brought it back good as new. Cables click into place and the thing always charges and no longer randomly disconnects when I'm using it in the car for directions.

        So, ummm, Apple's service, even for well out-of-warranty products, has cost them at least one phone sale. I wouldn't expect the same outcome with a competitor just because they don't have the High Street presence, so you can't just walk in and get the diagnosis right there. At best there'd have been a whole extra level of phone queues and service requests and posting things back and forth, but likely there'd have been nothing.

        I'm not averse to a new iPhone as for my money wireless charging undoes the loss of the headphone socket and I still don't understand the notch controversy, but I was always fine with the Office ribbon too so I may just be a poor representative of tech news comment posters.

        1. FlamingDeath Bronze badge

          Re: Have to agree.... @Tim99

          Great, so you were fortunate enough to have been served by someone who gave a shit and thought to themselves, "your face fits"

          You could very well of gone there another day and been served by a completely different personality and had a completely different experience. Companies dont make the people. People make the companies. Keep that in mind

    4. Neil Anderson

      Re: Have to agree....

      Two words: AirPods.

    5. Ralph B

      Re: Have to agree....

      Last week I finally decided to upgrade from my 5S. Since Apple currently sell nothing of the same form factor and nothing with a headphone socket, I ended up getting a 2nd hand SE. Very happy with it.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ethical ?

    They don't give a shit if the profits are rolling in on the back of mugs paying a fortune for their wares.

    1. katrinab Silver badge

      When you consider that my iPhone 6+ with a £25 battery replacement runs just as well as a brand new phone, whereas a Samsung Galaxy Note would have long since fallen to bits and at the time cost about the same, the iPhone actually works out a lot cheaper.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        >When you consider that my iPhone 6+ with a £25 battery replacement runs just as well as a brand new phone, whereas a Samsung Galaxy Note

        I have a HTC wildfire that's fully working oh and it takes micro SD cards allowing it to be still used as a high capacity walkman and a handy back up phone. Can you put a Micro SD in an iphone 4 which was released at the same time ?

        Oh and my s2 galaxy is still going strong thanks.

        Only in the minds of appletards do their products last forever and others self destruct after 5 seconds a la mission impossible.

        1. Mike Moyle Silver badge

          "I have a HTC wildfire that's fully working oh and it takes micro SD cards allowing it to be still used as a high capacity walkman and a handy back up phone. Can you put a Micro SD in an iphone 4 which was released at the same time ?

          "Oh and my s2 galaxy is still going strong thanks."

          Are they both running the latest Android system -- WITHOUT modding/jailbreaking? Because, as noted in the article, the Apple 6 is. The ability to keep up with security/functionality updates is a big issue for some of us. (Note: I have several Apple computers and an iPad, all of which are fully up-to-date, system-software-wise (My previous desktop was a Mirrored Drive Door G4 duallie that I used for ten years or so, or about two years after they stopped posting security updates for PPC systems.) My phone is a Samsung S8, updated from my old S3 because that one was no longer seeing updates and felt like it was slowing down, and I felt that I had better ways to spend my leisure time than fiddle-farting around with the internals. YMMV.

          1. Waseem Alkurdi

            Are they both running the latest Android system -- WITHOUT modding/jailbreaking? Because, as noted in the article, the Apple 6 is. The ability to keep up with security/functionality updates is a big issue for some of us.

            Why did you arbitrarily exclude rooting and installing a 7.1.2 custom ROM?

            You are of El Reg's readership. The standard is higher here.

            1. Ledswinger Silver badge

              You are of El Reg's readership. The standard is higher here.

              Most of us could root an Android and install Lineages. But as a process it is a friendly as a cornered rat, and IME the Lineages installs too often have bits that don't work properly per phone model. Why put myself through some tedium (with slight risk of bricking the phone) just to have a different OS that supports most of my phone's original capabilities?

              I don't like, own or use Apple products. But I'll back the assertion of the poster claiming that Apple support their products much better and for much longer. Most Android makers give up on support no later than the end of production of the hardware.

              1. Waseem Alkurdi

                Most Android makers give up on support no later than the end of production of the hardware.

                This, and all this.

                This is because SoC vendors (ahem, Qualcomm) don't bother updating their proprietary drivers across Android version changes.

                OEMs use them as a (perfectly valid) excuse to their greed.

                Well, it's better than SoC "vendors" who don't bother releasing drivers (ahem, MediaTek).

                So we gotta improvise.

            2. AdamWill

              it's not just about you

              "Why did you arbitrarily exclude rooting and installing a 7.1.2 custom ROM? You are of El Reg's readership. The standard is higher here."

              I'm not the OP, but I'm gonna answer: Because the article isn't exclusively about The Register's readership? It's "about" the whole market. It is a good thing in general that Apple actually keeps their older devices updated with security patches for a long time, *officially*. It is a bad thing that many Android phone vendors do not.

              I have an Android phone, and I run Lineage on it, and I've been doing that with various Android phones for years. Fine for me! (Except actually, doing it is kind of a giant PITA I would be much happier to avoid, if there were a *single* vendor I could trust to sell me a good phone with non-spyware-riddled firmware and keep it updated for a few years. But...there isn't. So I keep losing hours of my life to working out the latest ins and outs of bootloader unlocks and root exploits and all the rest of it.) But it's *not* fine for the vast majority of Android phone owners, who don't realistically have that option. Their choices are to stay on the eternal yearly upgrade treadmill (not great for their wallet or for the environment), or use a phone with known security vulnerabilities. Having millions of people running known-insecure OSes is not good for *anyone*.

              1. doublelayer

                Re: it's not just about you

                "Why did you arbitrarily exclude rooting and installing a 7.1.2 custom ROM? You are of El Reg's readership."

                I'll include another reason. I can't install these things unless I've already gotten one of the android-makers' flagships. For these custom ROMs, the list of supported devices is rather short. All the expensive devices are there, but the nice thing that android has that apple doesn't is the availability of devices that have internals commensurate with their price. None of these get the ROMs created for them, and I do not intend to try to compile it myself. So my android devices rarely support anything other than the thing they came with. The devices that do get this are the flagships that are overpriced and underpowered. So my choices are too expensive but well supported (apple), too expensive with some rooting required and later no support because they'll use rooting as an excuse to say no (flagships), or sensibly priced but no software or support.

                Another relevant problem is that these ROMs don't always offer all their functionality. They are buggy and require more user maintenance. I am capable of doing that, but I'd rather not do it for my friends and family or the devices I manage for my employer because a lot of stuff can break. This isn't like Linux on the desktop, where when something breaks it is easy to figure out what it is and slap in a fix, because things on custom android versions change a lot and a lot of things that break frequently are device-specific.

            3. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I can't speak about the Galaxy Note, but the Galaxy S3, S4 and S5 that my partner and I owned are all still going strong, all of which older than your 6+. I think the idea that iPhones last longer than their android brethren is largely a myth, at least as far as the hardware is concerned.

        Where there may be a valid point is in software support - Apple clearly support their hardware for longer. However, if you're the type to tinker there is often the option of flashing to a non-manufacturer build (e.g. LineageOS) to keep it up to date on patches. That's not for everyone, I grant you, but it's probably more relevant to the reg reader than the average punter.

        Refurbished iPhones are a bargain - but then again that's really just an admission that while there *is* a market for long in the tooth iPhones this will only get you a modest percentage of the next shiny if you're a frequent upgrader. Once they're over a few months old Androids have pretty much zero resale value, but they often find their way to friends and family instead and run for years.

        In real world pricing (not RRP) iPhones probably cost 50% over Samsung/Sony/etc flagship prices, or 100-200% over the chinese "near flagship" Androids. Comparing the actual longevity of the devices concerned I can't see it really justifies that price differential.

        1. Waseem Alkurdi

          Refurbished iPhones are a bargain - but then again that's really just an admission that while there *is* a market for long in the tooth iPhones this will only get you a modest percentage of the next shiny if you're a frequent upgrader.

          I bought an iPhone 7 on eBay for $210.(for my younger brother, nah, can't be seen using iPhones in public ^_^)

          How exactly is it different than an iPhone 8, other than the glass back and moving poop emoji?

          And it wouldn't be any different than the iPhone X gang had Samsung not upped the ante and produced a curved-display phone.

          TL;DR - Apple is no longer innovating, which justifies older flagship bargains!

        2. Apprentice

          I have sold countless pre-owned Android phones over the years and can assure you they certainly do have considerably more than your ridiculous 'zero resale value' claim, even those more than 2 years old. It's just another myth that people quote without any actual real world experience.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. Waseem Alkurdi

            To be honest, this statement has a little truth to it though.

            I bought my Google Pixel XL used through eBay a few weeks ago for $150.

            It cost $700 just two years ago.

            But then again, I simultaneously got the aforementioned iPhone 7 from the same seller for $210, and that also cost $700 two years ago.

            Both were in mint condition.

      3. johnnyblaze

        I'm sorry, that's bull. If you look after your phone, whatever the model, it should last a long time and work reliably. Apple tried to enforce obscelesance in their products when they forced the slowdown of older phones (no matter how they spin it). iPhones generally don't las that long anyway, not because of iOS, but because they're so fragile. I can't remember the last iPhone I saw that didn't have a cracked/broken screen. Not to say other manufacturers don't have the similar issues, but none are as bad as the iPhone.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          >iPhone I saw that didn't have a cracked/broken screen. Not to say other manufacturers don't have the similar issues, but none are as bad as the iPhone.

          That's because users of other phone brands are sensible and buy a flip case to protect it where as iPhone users like to show off that they can get themselves into more debt than a Latin American country just to be as blingy as a cast member from The Only Way Is Essex.

          1. Anonymous Coward
        2. Spazturtle Silver badge

          "Apple tried to enforce obscelesance in their products when they forced the slowdown of older phones (no matter how they spin it)."

          The slowdown only applied when the battery could no longer supply enough current to keep the CPU powered at full speed, usually when the battery charge dropped below 40%. So from 100% to 40% the CPU was running at full clock speed and from 39% to 0% it was running at reduced peak clockspeed.

          Before the update the device would run at full clockspeed from 100% to 40% and then power off at 39% charge.

          I'm not sure how anyone thinking logically can say that the device's behavior before the update was preferable. How is the device not working at all better then the device working but slightly slower?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            >The slowdown only applied when the battery could no longer supply enough current to keep the CPU powered at full speed

            Apple told nobody about this and only fessed up with spin bullshit when they were caught out.

            You'd have to be very credulous to believe them as you would if you found the postman conkers deep in your wife and accepted the explanation he was only popping something through the letterbox.

            1. Spazturtle Silver badge

              "You'd have to be very credulous to believe them as you would if you found the postman conkers deep in your wife and accepted the explanation he was only popping something through the letterbox."

              You don't have to believe it, you can test it yourself, get an old iphone that doesn't have the update and leave a bench mark running on it, after a certain point the device will just power off even though it still has a charge, update it and repeat and you will see that after that same point it now stays on but the performance goes down once it gets to that point.

      4. salamamba too

        happily still using an original galaxy note. replacement battery (double size of original) was under £5.

      5. Sgt_Oddball Silver badge

        How so? My dad's still using a galaxy s3 that's only in the past couple of months started chugging (for the record most likely the memory is shot since he takes pics, empties them then fills it again. Tried to convince him to buy a memory card but keeps forgetting to leave it in).

        He's getting my old s7 for Christmas (complete with my old memory card of 64gb which should last him).

    2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      I think Andrew is being a little sarcastic in this article.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Ethical ?

      I found the ideas discussed in the article a bit tricky so "WAAAAAHHHHH THEY'RE EXPENSIVE AND YOU ARE ALL MUGS!!!!"

  3. John Robson Silver badge

    Will probably upgrade...

    one of the phones in the house at some point... Need to check where in the upgrade cycle we are at the moment.

    But they go down through the family - the upgrade is really on a 4+year cycle... even if each of us see 'new' phones a bit faster than that...

  4. TonyJ Silver badge

    Ethical behaviour

    ..."You've behaved ethically, putting long-term consumer concerns first..."

    Up until now. Because it was easy to take that stance when they were selling massive quantities of phones.

    But how long they continue to do this if their sales are slipping is anyone's guess but I would suspect "not that long" to be a fairly valid answer.

    1. Gonzo wizard
      Linux

      Re: Ethical behaviour

      The reason I have owned Apple laptops for ten years (and am now back on iPhones) is that they are built well, last far longer than a plastic laptop and have a good resale value when I replace them. If the quality of the hardware slips, that whole model falls apart. Independently of my own reasoning, the brand cachet simply isn't there if the devices look like they've been to hell and back after six months. Like, say, the iPhone 5 does.

      The moment Apple blinks on this they will lose so much. They just won't realise it until 18-24 months later (my personal verdict on the latest laptops is still not in, my daughter is the guinea pig on that one, plus must have the ability to install any OS of my choosing).

      1. deadlockvictim Silver badge

        Re: Ethical behaviour

        On build quality, I still have a Macintosh Performa 475 from 1994 around that I like to play Prince of Persia and Civilization on every now and then. It needed a new PRAM battery and all was well. Not bad for a 24 year old machine.

        1. casinowilhelm

          Re: Ethical behaviour

          I have a 14 year old dell laptop that has been dropped several times and yet still works. It's too slow to actually do anything useful but that's beside the point being made here. It was built like a tank.

      2. Sgt_Oddball Silver badge

        Re: Ethical behaviour

        My 9 year old lenovo begs to differ...

  5. AndrueC Silver badge
    Boffin

    Much as I'm always the first to moan at the prospect of using anything Apple it's at least partly in jest and merely because they tend to do things differently. It actually harks back to my data recovery days when HFS was a pain in the bum to deal with for the MSDOS/Windows based utilities I was writing and working with. For those who don't know HFS supported the concept of 'forks' which meant that an individual file contained two or three separate streams within it. This is something that the prevalent file system at the time (FATx) just couldn't cope with. Worse still the additional streams mattered so couldn't just be ignored.

    In the early days all we could do is perform data recoveries on a solitary Mac in a dark corner of the office. Unsurprisingly with no designated operator the machine was inevitably full of old crap and/or in need of maintenance when you sat down in front of it. All you wanted to do was recover some data and you had to waste an hour or two cleaning the damn' thing up. Hindered by lack of familiarity.

    Thankfully NTFS came along which allowed Windows applications to create as many forks (called alternate data streams) as you want. Even better the Windows networking stack provided a way to create specially named streams such that a Macintosh client could recognise them as forks. So I extended our Windows tools to output HFS/HFS+ sourced files in this format and now we only needed the Mac to burn CDs. Even better a year later we bought a utility that could mount Mac volumes under Windows so we never needed to use that ageing Mac again.

    But to be fair Apple documentation for HFS and HFS+ was excellent. Not only thorough documentation of the structures but even worked examples of how you'd access them. And their hardware is good quality. I have two old iPods and both still work.

    But..the iPods mean I have to use iTunes. Plus recently I've started doing mobile development and I occasionally have to sort my Mac mini out which means remembering how to operate the damn thing. Oh and it doesn't support desktop scaling so I have to run it at a lower resolution in order to expand things so that my old eyes can read them. On the plus side debugging an iOS app is more reliable and more feature rich than debugging an Android app.

    So..yeah, it's good quality kit. The problem for me is simply that Apple's ecosystem follows different rules to what I'm used to and that means my occasional need to foray into their walled garden is irritating :)

    1. katrinab Silver badge

      Macs do support desktop scaling, but it involves editing configuration files in a text editor, or press the option key in Display Settings to see the hidden settings.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

  6. Semtex451 Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    @Andrew O

    Thank you for writing that, no one ever listens to little old me.

    1. Annihilator
      Coat

      Re: @Andrew O

      What?

      1. Semtex451 Silver badge

        Re: @Andrew O

        It's about Apples failed deviation from the usual release scheme this year, i.e. release flagship, discount last years flagship. Instead they discontinued last years flagship (X) and released a larger but inferior* handset (XR) and made it only slightly cheaper. Apple have finally realised that idea was not working out for them and have reduced the price $300 to make it a more viable upgrade for 6 and 7 owners not stupid enough to pay XS money.

        What Apple can't do anything about is the size of the XR, which does not appeal to many 'western' 6 and 7 owners. It occurred to me in September that the only way to get around that was to put the X back into production, its size is acceptable to this group. But that would make the XR even less attractive unless you like phablets.

        *see Apples handset comparison site

        1. Craig Mulvaney

          Re: @Andrew O

          Price reduction? The XR is still £749 here.

          I'm looking forward to the 3rd incarnation of the XR series - hopefully they'll call it the XR3i :-)

  7. knarf

    Losing customer

    All four in my household were on iphones, there is one left me with an iphone 7 everyone else switched to droid as you can get a £200 phone that does everything an iphone does.

    1. Craig 2

      Re: Losing customer

      Sounds like you're well on the path I'm just starting down. No more iPhones, mid-range Android from now on.

      Incidentally, I wonder what this will do to the argument of 2nd hand Apple phones holding their price so well...

      1. PhilipJ

        Re: Losing customer

        even mid-range is almost too good for most people, given how cheap and just all-round great the budget phones have become - with the likes of Xiaomi Mi 8 lite etc... that kind of performace and features were flagship level just a couple of years ago...

        1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

          Re: Losing customer

          My Nexus 5X died recently (all round fantastic phone, particularly for the price). I bought a Samsung J3 for about £100 as a very quick purchase because I needed a phone up and running pretty much straight away (and wanted one with the NFC for contactless payments). The camera is a bit crap, and while the performance of the phone itself isn't stellar once I'd removed all the awful Samsung shovelware and hugely sub-par versions of other applications the speed isn't noticeable and it has about 50% more battery life now compared to before. Alternatively I could have spent hundred more on a phone that when it comes to most practical use (for me), isn't much better. I do miss the 5X's camera thouugh...

        2. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

          Re: Losing customer

          I think the idea of Android phones degrading sharply over time has a lot to do with two things: The first is that the pre-eminent manufacturer of Android phones is Samsung - a company whose attitude to long-term support would make Don Juan blush.

          The second factor is that Android phones have always been marketed using their spec-sheets, rather than user's actual needs. This has resulted in manufacturers cutting back on reliability in order to hit a higher performance value at the same cost. You can run cheap components at the top of their performance envelope and get the same performance as more expensive ones, but you will not get the longevity.

          I'm interested to see how the company now using Nokia's brand-name is doing on durability. Longevity and toughness was always a strong point of the original Nokia (because in its home market of Finland, there were never phone subsidies: customers bought a handset at full price, so needed to get at least five years use out of it).

          1. Waseem Alkurdi

            Re: Losing customer

            a company whose attitude to long-term support would make Don Juan blush.

            THIS! Hell yeah!

          2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: Losing customer

            The first is that the pre-eminent manufacturer of Android phones is Samsung - a company whose attitude to long-term support would make Don Juan blush.

            I don't think you should confuse Samsung's fairly shitty approach to OS updates with the hardware which is pretty well-built and lasts well. Several people here have posted that their S* are still running fine, as is my Wave (hardly ever start it but it still works).

            Android < 5 used to add features and memory requirements with new versions and phones hit RAM limitations fairly quickly. Since then feature development has been minimal and Google has put Android on a diet (ART replacing Dalvik, more aggressive scheduling). At the same time the baseline for hardware has improved: more RAM, more cores even on the cheaper phones. As a result Andrew's jokes about "landfill" phones don't resonate that much any more. Cheaper phones do the business and continue doing the business for longer. Samsung has adapted to this and I suspect Apple will, too: an SE of the 8 at some point, no doubt.

            1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

              Re: Losing customer

              I don't think you should confuse Samsung's fairly shitty approach to OS updates with the hardware which is pretty well-built and lasts well. Several people here have posted that their S* are still running fine, as is my Wave (hardly ever start it but it still works).

              I find that when it comes to Samsung, there's two camps: the first are happy with their products, and the second are the ones who used to be in the first camp, right up until they tried to get an old one fixed.

              And this isn't just phones: I've seen it with TVs, cameras, printers, washing machines, fridges. This is a company that just does not care about after-sales service. When the last pallet of products leaves the factory, it's as if the product never existed.

              And, OS updates are really important for a mobile phone: not keeping the phone's OS up to date is ultimately the same as shipping an underspecced battery: your average customer tries to install whatever app they've just seen an ad for on TV onto their three year old phone, gets a message about an unsupported OS version (too old), goes to the phone shop, and ends up having to buy a new phone, simply because Samsung couldn't be arsed to run some automated tests. It doesn't matter that the hardware could keep running forever if you've got to root the phone to keep the OS up to date - 99.999% of customers have no idea what that even means, let alone how they'd go about doing it.

              Apple is evil, but at least it keeps a roof over its serfs' heads.

      2. Craigie Bronze badge

        Re: Losing customer

        The second-hand price of iPhones seems to me an argument against buying them, not for.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: a £200 phone that does everything an iphone does.

      iPhones don't degrade like Androids do. I hope you've found a good one but I've found that even if you don't install any software they degrade over time. When I got my 8 core £200 Android the bluetooth audio was perfect. 6 months later and there was the occasional stutter. A year later it will stutter at least once every 30 minutes.

      Try doing that with an iPhone.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: a £200 phone that does everything an iphone does.

        When I got my 8 core £200 Android the bluetooth audio was perfect.

        Problems with Bluetooth are usually entirely unrelated to hardware. Specifically when it comes to Bluetooth Apple has a shocking reputation but I suspect what you're experiencing is some kind of interference: Bluetooth is lower power and shares the unlicensed 2.4 GHz band with, amongst other things, wifi, but will also suffer near strong EM fields such as in a train station. Range is also a lot less than you might imagine, though this can depend on peripherals, some of which are really shit: I get a good 8m through walls from my sidebar but about 4m from my kitchen radio.

      2. Thoguht Silver badge

        Re: a £200 phone that does everything an iphone does.

        Degrading? Must be the rotational velocidensity.

        1. AdamWill

          Re: a £200 phone that does everything an iphone does.

          "Degrading? Must be the rotational velocidensity."

          He probably didn't burn it in properly.

  8. Kebablog

    Still happy with my iPhone 6 - Nothing in the range appeals at the moment. If a smaller Xr was available then possibly, but I'll wait. Got a few more important things to sort out at the moment.

  9. Dabooka Silver badge
    Happy

    Nice try, but...

    You're still not getting a Christmas card

  10. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    "Apple sees nothing from second-hand trade."

    That's not quite true. Through the refurbishment programme Apple is probably the largest actor in the second-hand trade. This is a tried and tested method that car manufacturers offer and has several benefits for them: firstly, it keeps the trade; secondly, part exchange can allow rebates to appear more generous than they are, especially when users "trade up"; it helps sets a floor for second-hand prices which in turn allows it to keep the prices of new devices high.

    1. SW10

      Re: "Apple sees nothing from second-hand trade."

      It also keeps people in the ecosystem, buying from the App Store, paying for iCloud, having a reason to stick to Mac OS...

      Apple Services is a big line for Cupertino’s Counting Dept.

      Moreover, when the punter goes to buy their next phone, they’re mentally discounting what they imagine will be the resale value from the price of the phone they’re buying.

    2. Jan 0

      Re: "Apple sees nothing from second-hand trade."

      Yes, but if you’re not in the USA, there are no refurbished ‘phones on offer via the Online Apple Store. However, I have bought some well spec’d Mac Minis. You can trade in old iPhones at UK stores, but you can get a better price by selling them privately.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: "Apple sees nothing from second-hand trade."

        You can trade in old iPhones at UK stores, but you can get a better price by selling them privately.

        Sure, but Apple is happy to see higher prices elsewhere. Anything that makes a new I-Phone seem "good value for money" is good for Apple and higher resale values certainly do that.

        BTW. although I've never had an I-Phone, I'm not dissing their kit: the phones are well designed (apart from the notch) and well made. But I won't go into the walled garden.

    3. DougS Silver badge

      More importantly

      Apple's user base is increasing at over 10% a year in the US - I'm guessing it is similar in the rest of the world. So even if Apple's sales are flat or even decline because phones are "good enough", they will still add more and more iOS users every year because when people upgrade after 2-3 years years, their old phone will get itself a second owner, instead of ending up in a drawer like most old Androids.

      That hurts them in the short run because they make such a large percentage of their revenue from selling iPhones, but in the long run the bigger user base gives them more people to sell services to. More people means more customers for services, which have been growing at 20-30% a year - and they still have yet to enter some markets like video streaming or cloud services that they might in the future.

  11. devTrail

    Last Longer? Not comparable models.

    "Older iPhones last longer than Androids, are better supported, and now run faster than Androids of a comparable age. "

    Of course, a phone that costs less than 200 dollars is made with outdated components, it is already near obsolescence when it hits the market. The quoted sentence in the article just makes a blunt statement on the average without taking into account the cost/lifespan ratio of equivalent models.

    1. scaley

      Re: Last Longer? Not comparable models.

      Both my In-laws are still running the original Moto G from 2013 and are more than happy with them, granted they replaced the battery (snap back of and job done).

      Typical apple BS about lasting longer IMO

      1. Gwyn Evans

        Re: Last Longer? Not comparable models.

        What version of Android are they running, or more to the point, what’s the date of the last security update those phones received?

        That was the issue I found with old Moto G phone (and G4's).

    2. LDS Silver badge

      "2018's iOS update gives older models a new lease of life"

      Only when it had to remove the built-in obsolescence mode because ti was caught cheating customers...

      Still, non user-replaceable batteries and lack of microSD cards support limits their life.

  12. devTrail

    Data slurping

    "Apple represents a strong alternative to people creeped out by Google's disconcerting data slurping."

    In the iOS environment people don't have more control over their data than in the Android environment. A mobile phone is prone to remote tracking whatever is the OS running it.

    1. sabroni Silver badge

      Re: Data slurping

      The weight of evidence of Google's snooping is far greater than Apple's. Apple predominately monetise through hardware sales while Google monetise through targetted advertising. Snooping is more vital to Google's business than it is to Apple's.

      So when faced with one option that definitely snoops as much as possible and one that probably does it's perfectly reasonable to pick the latter.

      1. devTrail

        Re: Data slurping

        "The weight of evidence of Google's snooping is ..."

        I've read this preformatted reply a huge number of times over the years. But it is not an evidence. What matters is not what is reported in the balance sheets, information is power, power that may be used to influence the markets or influence politics in order to get some back favours from the supported politicians, nothing of this goes in the balance sheets and nothing of this is accounted for.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. rg287

        Re: Data slurping

        This would be true except that every single iPhone user I am aware of has the Facebook app installed

        I don't, and neither does the good lady. We attend a monthly tech meetup in our town and this actually came up in the open discussion about 18 months ago. Something like half the room had uninstalled the app (regardless of OS). A few more did afterwards too, having not previously really thought about it.

        It is a fair point though that picking an OS from a manufacturer who touts privacy and then installing a bunch of native apps from ad-slingers is worthy of an eyeroll.

      2. devTrail

        Re: Data slurping

        This would be true except that every single iPhone user I am aware of has the Facebook app installed,

        Facebook is just a small part of the problem. With builtin SIM and a big share of the phones sold via agreements with the operators most of the customers eventually buy a phone showing Apple their ID, often even buyers of second hand phones in one way or the other end up registering with Apple with their names. On the other hand it is a little bit more common to buy an Android phone separately from the contract (not in the UK or the US, but it happens) and paying with a debit card which means that your name is known only by the bank approving the payment. In less authoritarian countries you can still buy a prepaid anonymous SIM, Google may still try and find out your identity via email account or other data, but it will not be a certain identification as the match of an official ID with IMEI and Apple ID, from this point of view Apple is in a stronger position than Google with Android.

    3. LDS Silver badge

      "Apple represents a strong alternative to people creeped out"

      The question is "how long"? Even Miicrosoft for a while "scroogled" Google, just to adopt the same exact approach as soon as Nadella took the helm - as consumer OS sales revenues were probably declining, especially since very few people saw a reason to upgrade to Windows 8, and OEM sales were impacted by slow PC sales.

      Right now Facebook made very unpopular the data slurping, and Google and YouTube are just behind in behavioural targeting, so Apple has an easy hand.

      But if in some years the current outrage fades out, without real legislative changes and checks, and if Apple revenues decrease due to longer upgrade cycles (as we saw already in the PC market), who is ready to bet Apple stakeholders won't ask to monetize customers' data too? Who knows, Cook might really think Apple can avoid selling data on pure ethical reasons, but he can be replaced as well.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: "Apple represents a strong alternative to people creeped out"

        Right now Facebook made very unpopular the data slurping, and Google and YouTube are just behind in behavioural targeting, so Apple has an easy hand.

        Except, of course, letting people use the apps largely negates anything Apple does. Also, you forgot Amazon which I think probably collects the most and most useful personal data of people who use it a lot.

        Using the moral highground for marketing purposes? Who'dve thought it?

  13. devTrail

    ethical?

    "Apple makes its money by persuading people who already have an iPhone to upgrade to a newer model."

    What about the walled garden app store?

    "This combination of decisions is both ethical and commercially damaging."

    The ethic was paid for by huge tax discounts. But apart from that a corporation is always as much ethical as their customer can force it to be ethical. It's the vote with the wallet that matters.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: ethical?

      The ethic was paid for by huge tax discounts. But apart from that a corporation is always as much ethical as their customer can force it to be ethical. It's the vote with the wallet that matters.

      It's astounding to me that you are so wrong with your initial statement, but actually get it right with the rest.

      Corporations never bare costs, especially taxes. Only people bare costs. And for corporations, those people are (in order): customers, employees, shareholders.

  14. DeeCee

    Long term support and googles slurping are reasons i bought 8 plus, at this point phones are on same level as pcs in terms of not needing to buy a new one every year like it was 15 years ago. I dont like apple but there are some things they do right, still sad about windows phone, was best of both worlds, if microsoft just fully committed and put their weight behind apps

    then again my backup phone is samsung galaxy mini from 2011, even used it for a time last year after my nokia lumia died

    1. Cavehomme_

      I have exactly the same comment about Apple being the regretable choice after Windows Phone demise. Still, iPhones are more secure and good quality and well supported compared to Android which I've also used for a decade.

  15. Joe Harrison Silver badge

    no just no

    This article is just plain wrong. For starters "Novell's product was so good and so reliable nobody needed to upgrade it." OK we've all heard the stories of ancient NetWare 2 servers with an uptime of 50 years but normal NetWare 3 and 4 boxes used to crash all the time if you looked at them funny and even if you didn't.

    More importantly this "ethical" Apple, are we talking about the same company that sends you an over the air remote brick-o-gram if it spots that you had the cheek to get your cracked screen repaired by someone who wasn't Apple?

    1. Steve Cooper

      Re: no just no

      No one is allowed to say a bad word about NetWare 3.12 - it was amazing :)

  16. juice Bronze badge

    Ethical or accidental?

    The fact that Apple gear lasts longer/has a better resale value is a side-effect of their business model.

    However, the fact that Apple gear is effectively unrepairable[*] is also a side-effect of their business model.

    Do these things cancel out?

    To be fair, Apple does make a number of ethical choices which could be praised (or reviled, depending on your point of view) - it's stance on data gathering, the handset security lockdowns and the decision to ban hate-speech from it's platforms.

    And in many ways, their whole business model is ethical, insomuch as it revolves around producing - and supporting - the best end-user experience possible. So long as you're happy to pay the Apple tax *and* work to their rules.

    But any wider ethical effects are secondary, not primary. And to my mind, that isn't necessarily worthy of praise.

    [*] A combination of high component prices (Macbook 2013 15" screen: £200 from Ebay!), complex physical builds (e.g. glue, soldered components, non-standard screwheads) and physical security lockdowns which block the use of OEM parts (e.g. the infamous Error 53)

    1. Cavehomme_

      Re: Ethical or accidental?

      I think you are on the right track with this argument. Apple make devices and the OS is simply what enabled it to work and host Apps upon. If it breaks, then you take it back to manufacturer, same as any other household product. If you start to disasemble your TV or use another repairer, your warranty is invalid, why should Apple be any different in this respect?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "warranty invalid" != "bricked product"

        Apple could invalidate a warranty if a product is not repaired with approved spares and technicians, but can't brick them.

      2. juice Bronze badge

        Re: Ethical or accidental?

        > If you start to disasemble your TV or use another repairer, your warranty is invalid, why should Apple be any different in this respect?

        Eh? Warranties are a completely different subject, though I do at least partially agree: if I decide to pop the lid on something to fix and/or poke something, there's a reasonable case to be made for the manufacturer to invalidate the warranty.

        (Though as ever, there are shades of grey - what if a component fails which is absolutely nothing to do with the thing I poked?)

        Back to my original point, and as you've said, Apple effectively sell "turnkey" devices, and this pretty much mandates that the device in question should be a black box: it does what Apple designed it to, and only what Apple designed it to. If it goes wrong - or if you want different functionality - then you have to go back to Apple.

        If you're happy enough to buy into that concept, then all is well and good. But it's hardly an ethical approach - instead, it's monopolistic, and potentially subject to abuse.

    2. LDS Silver badge

      "lasts longer/has a better resale value is a side-effect of their business model."

      I agree - it's not for customers' sake, but because their business model is to deliver high-end models with the latest technology. It's much alike German cars, or Japanese (as in made in Japan, not China) cameras - to justify their price they need to make high-quality models.

      In turn, that makes them last far longer than lower quality ones, and have a better used market appeal

      Most of these products business model are based on keeping on to sell to people with the money to afford such products, or to find new markets when people reach the level they can afford them, and being also status-symbol products they usually sell well. But for the same reason increasing the market share is hard when economy shrinks, new markets don't come to life, and there are less reasons to upgrade the current model.

      The customer obviously has some advantage from this model, if it can afford the price - but it's not usually the driver behind most business decisions.

  17. antonyh

    My Samsumg S7 Edge made itself user-hostile when I tried to turn off location tracking, popping up a message every few minutes trying to convince me to turn it back on.

    Ethical? The bar set by the competition is so low that ants have to duck to go under it.

    1. Franco Silver badge

      I have the same issue with my Nokia 6.1. I've disabled access to location, contacts etc for pretty much every app that has no legitimate need for access AFAICS yet get regular warnings. The camera "needs" microphone access or it won't work at all, even for stills. Apparently the Play Store needs access to my contacts (but works fine without it, just moans periodically). My other major gripe is new apps appearing with each new Android upgrade that aren't required and seem to grab excessive permissions without asking as they are "system" apps.

      However, given Apple's lack of transparency about pretty much everything the cynic in me wonders how similar iOS is to Android in some of these respects, it's just that it's hidden more deeply. I can't imagine that if Microsoft and Google are doing it that Apple aren't at least dipping their tongues in to the data pool and having a taste if not a full slurp.

      1. DougS Silver badge

        I can't imagine that if Microsoft and Google are doing it that Apple aren't at least dipping their tongues in to the data pool and having a taste if not a full slurp.

        With what goal? Google (and Facebook) has to do it because they make all their money from advertising, so their business model demands slurping data. Microsoft has decided to emulate that and try to make money from advertising in addition to their existing sources, whether they will be successful or give up remains to be seen. Apple doesn't really do advertising (except for its own products) so there's no reason for them to slurp data.

        So you think they do, and store petabytes of personal info on all of us just "because", even though it has no current business value for them? Even though doing so without a purpose would risk major brand damage if it it became known, since they've been positioning themselves as the company that values your privacy and doesn't collect every scrap of data they can? It would be an insane risk to take when the reason is "just because".

        1. Franco Silver badge

          Apple sells media content via iTunes, and wants to also produce it's own content apparently. Are you seriously suggesting that Apple would not use the data they have on existing purchasers to suggest new content that they might be interested in for example?

          Just because Apple say they don't do it and like to take the moral high-ground doesn't mean they aren't doing it too. Google's motto was don't be evil, yet they slurp everything and dump zero days exploits in other companies software on to the internet if they aren't patched as quickly as Google would like. Facebook are quite simply pure evil, and Microsoft have many questionable practices that are, if not as bad as the other two at least in terms of data mining, are certainly in the same ballpark.

          Let us not forget Apple themselves have done some pretty shady things, with conditions at their partner manufacturing plants, their tax arrangements, excessive vendor lock-in on accessories and maintenance, pushing out new pieces of software as a "recommended update" and forcing the download of a U2 album that no one wanted.

          1. DougS Silver badge

            Of course Apple could use narrowly focused data like your iTunes example, but that's a far cry from collecting anything and everything. There's also nothing stopping them from having that data collected and processed locally so it never leaves the device. There's no reason it needs to be uploaded off your phone, other than to combine it with other devices like an iPod, Mac etc. which would be of limited utility unless you listened rarely on your phone compared to other devices.

            Please spare me "just because Apple says they aren't doing it doesn't mean they aren't doing it". Just because Google's stated policies don't allow them to make every scrap of info they collect on you available to all governments of the world, as well as selling it on eBay for your neighbors to buy doesn't mean they aren't doing it, right?

            1. Franco Silver badge

              "Please spare me "just because Apple says they aren't doing it doesn't mean they aren't doing it"."

              Why, have Apple done something to make you trust them implicitly? It's clear that once one company gets away with something the others will follow. Apple were the first to risk non-user replaceable batteries and were slated for it, now it's the norm across almost all devices.

              You asked why Apple might do such a thing, the article gives you the answer. If their devices are lasting longer then they can't make the same amount of money from people upgrading constantly, so they will need to find another way to maintain their revenue stream.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Drones

    I was there when they promised to stop 1984 from happening.

    Instead, of course, they are a major stakeholder in the THX Project.

    I still have my flip phone c'ause it's a phone, CrApple can go screw itself, so can android.

    I feel sorry for the last few generations bound to the grid, they'll fit in well when Chinese style Social Credit systems are unleashed upon them, unable to dodge the collar.

    I may be a dinosaur but I can master it all so I'm still here, chugging away...

    Ditch your phone the way we ditched our watches.

    Maybe if you used half the time you spend on your phone on your wife, child or dog the world might avoid the coming storm.

    End rant.

  19. Chris Evans

    Ethical?

    "You've behaved ethically, putting long-term consumer concerns first"

    If they were ethical they'd make them easier to repair and whilst they may support their obsolete products better than most, they don't support them long enough to entice me, I would call it "Mid-term consumer concerns first" at best

  20. Jim 59

    "Apple sees nothing from second-hand trade"

    ...except a replacement purchase by the seller ?

    "Apple represents a strong alternative to people creeped out by Google's disconcerting data slurping."

    The implication being that Apple is better than Google in this regard. If true, it is an excellent reason for Android users to make the switch, and could be Apple's salvation.

    Like Microsoft, who were workstation based and just never "groked" the network, Google is network based and cannot grok people's privacy concerns, and never will. And there is the key to Google's eventual downfall. If Apple or another FAANG can make privacy their main product, they will dominate into the future.

    1. Neil Anderson

      "Apple sees nothing from second-hand trade"

      Apple gets any app purchases or services the new buyer opts for.

  21. ida71u

    Ethical you say ?

    So the company that has put the price of their product up by the same number as the phone edition in dollars, then sold it to us mugs in the UK in the same number but in pounds & tried to make old phones run slowly until they were taken to court, is ethical ??? WTF you must be smoking Androids :)

    So my 3 was £300, the 4 was £400 the 5/6/7/8 were the same in pounds & the 9 was skipped & went straight to the X (10) at £1000 due to poor sales of the 8. Now its does not cost anymore to import from China to the UK or the rest of Europe than it does to the USA, so a $999 phone should have been about £765 +VAT, so circa £920. Highest taxes in the USA are around 10% so the $999 would have been worst case $1100 !

    So I would not call a company that charges customers in one country more than another just because they can, ethical.

    But given the choice of the Malware hell that is Android & its disparate lack of commonality, I'll stick with my iPhone.

    YMMV

  22. IGnatius T Foobar !

    No sympathy

    Apple still skims off a third of all revenues which go through the iStore. They're still making boatloads of money whether people upgrade their phones or not. I have no sympathy for them here.

  23. MWH

    Built in obsolescence?

    My experience is that my Samsung S7 keeps chugging along in spite of many firmware updates, while my IPad got slower with each revision till I binned it as unusable. A simple "Don't take this update - you do not have enough memory" would restore my faith in Apple. Till then, I'm cynical.

  24. Semtex451 Silver badge

    After all these years

    Does AndrewO still have to point out to you that when the word 'Ethical' appears in a sentence in relation to Apple, one of three situations has occurred

    a) it's sarcasm foo

    b) the word is being used comparatively

    c) AndrewO needs an ambulance

  25. Roland6 Silver badge

    Time to change the business model.

    Currently, Apple (largely) relies on new hardware sales. Clearly, it would seem they are several years behind Microsoft - who themselves aren't known to be market leaders, and moving from product to service and subscriptions.

    1. DougS Silver badge

      Re: Time to change the business model.

      They already are, they set a goal a couple years ago to double their services revenue by 2020, and they are ahead of schedule on it, seeing growth of 20-30% a year.

      Having older phones last longer and get sold second hand is increasing their user base by 10% a year in the US (probably similar everywhere) which means more people to sell services to, even if their yearly sales of new phones begins to decline due to people waiting longer before replacing them.

    2. Neil Anderson

      Re: Time to change the business model.

      "several years behind Microsoft"

      Funny how pundits often think that ... till Apple leapfrogs the competition. Like the Apple watch, for example.

  26. Neil Anderson

    "Apple sees nothing from second-hand trade"

    Apple will buy certain iPhone models as a trade-in, refurbish them, and sell them for a profit.

  27. Extra Fabulous

    Are you sure?

    Apple still deliberately throttles old iphones and has had an issue on many older models. I don’t know what makes you think they’re made to last.

    Iphone x has screen burn and colour shift due to the way OLED screens work.

    Iphone 8 has logic board issues.

    Iphone 7/+ has audio ic issues and no service issues.

    Iphone 6/+ has touch ic issues.

    Iphone 6s battery randomly dies.

    There’s quite a bit of material on all the iphone issues online and a few ongoing class action lawsuits. You should check it out. I’ve never heard anyone ever claim the things last a long time before. That’s really not their spiel.

    1. DougS Silver badge

      Re: Are you sure?

      If you sell 200+ million units of ANYTHING in a year, you are going to have some issues with a certain percentage of them. I haven't had the issues you list and I've owned an iPhone X since launch and before that had an iPhone 6S plus since launch. Google has had a long list of problems with each Pixel and they sell 1% or 2% as many as Apple. As far as I'm aware, no one I know has had any of these problems with their iPhone (not that all my friends tell me about every problem they have with their phones, but I do hear some of them and except for broken screens those issues are universally Android related)

      If you don't believe iPhones last longer than Android phones, you are being willfully ignorant. Go look at the resale value (either in absolute terms or as a percentage of original sales price) and compare to ANY Android phone. If they were as poorly built as you seem to believe, no iPhones would last long enough to be resold!

  28. Billy7766

    2nd hand....

    I think I disagree regarding 2nd hand phones - a quick google says that an S9 is around £500, roughly the same as an iPhone X with half the memory, if you go down a bit the previous generation S8 is around the same sort of price as an Apple 8....all in all I'm not sure your argument stands up. I abandoned Apple after my 2nd iphone 6 went kaput in 18 months due to battery issues and I became aware of the S8 and it's MicroSD slot, meaning I could buy a much cheaper phone, that looked good and then upgrade it's memory to whatever I wanted for next to nothing.

    1. DougS Silver badge

      Re: 2nd hand....

      Look at trade in values, not second hand pricing. Find me a site that shows the same value for an iPhone X or iPhone 8 as a Galaxy S8. I'll wait. For a long time, because there isn't one.

  29. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

    well the best phone i've ever had is my current one - an iPhone 5. I've had it for at least 2 years , battery lasts 48hrs. Given to me for free , i declare myself the winner of the $$$ / functionality ratio contest

  30. MMR

    Killed the golden goose

    Apple got greedy and killed of the SE which was £300. Now the cheapest model is what, £750?

    Good luck trying to sway the SE owners to that deal.

  31. Lordbrummie

    Well, we were an apple house through and through.

    4 iphones, 4 ipads, IMAC desktop, AppleTV and an Air. multiple iterations over the past 7 years or so, not anymore, Apple has priced us out of their eco system.

    Now we're down to just the 4 phones, the IMAC just got replaced by a touch screen laptop, no matter what folks think of Win10, for what my family uses them for (Youtube, Netflix, school work) they are more than functional and a fraction of the price.

    As soon as the phones start to give up the ghost then we'll be off to android, just cannot justify the prices, they are beyond silly now.

    It's not just the hardware either, no itunes and appstore sales, that is the real long term killer for Apple, no more regular monthly impluse sales, how did Apple let it come to this....

  32. Anonymous Coward
  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Obsolescence

    "The fact iPhones are well made and continue to chug along so well brings along an ancillary benefit: they retain their value much better than Androids. Which, again, makes them attractive to buyers in the second-hand market. Apple sees nothing from second-hand trade."

    It is a total fallacy that this is costing Apple lots of money.

    New iPhones are so expensive that only a niche market can actually afford them, even considering operator tarrifs which include a premium that pays for the handset over time. The fact that those lucky few have a market to sell on the older handsets is of benefit to Apple because it provides an upgrade path for its existing customers and also goes a long way in promoting its brand.

  34. Sil

    If Apple behaved ethically, it would not try to kick out third party repair shops.

    #RightToRepair

  35. werdsmith Silver badge

    "Apple sees nothing from second-hand trade."

    Yes they do, that's some of the point of your article.

    The fact that they can sell on for good retained value is a selling point that helps shift phones therefore contributing to Apple's business.

  36. Aseries

    Apple Ethics? Really?

    Along with John Deere, Apple Service Center scamming consumers over ultra expensive repairs to push upgrades, lack of transprarency about self-repair and increasing use of monolithic device design has brought on themselves the cry for Right To Repair Legislation in the USA.

  37. FlamingDeath Bronze badge

    CrApple

    Are the best at planned obsolescence

    Their target market appeas to be the moron masses who demand features such as lasers in text messages and snapchat style augmented reality, as opposed to more useful features like laser measurements or dare I say it, a thermal camera

    CrApple have lost their way, if they even had it to start with.

    Whenever I visit their CrAppStore, I just despair at all the junk mobile app developers pushing out shitcode loaded with adverts and trackers. The amount of abandonware on there is incredible, and programs you've paid money for will magically disappear with no refund from CrApple. They're a bloody awful company, and thieves to boot

    Let's just say, "Smart" phones have not lived up to my expectations, and I am very disappointed

  38. mgrds

    data is all that matters ..

    There is only one thing that really matters - my data ! Is it secure, can I export it and transfer to another platform easily>

    Any platform that does not keep my data secure and give me total control and ownership of it is basically obsolete and only for fools!

    At the end of the day bevels on phones , or bells and whistles, or OS updates are just window dressing. And what is best one year can fall behind the next !.

    What matters is how compatible is the ecosystem with other platforms. And how independent , compatible and tranferable is my data This is increasingly the MOST important and only issue to me !

    1. __sky.captain__

      Re: data is all that matters ..

      To make your data* even remotely secure, the most important component is not your phone or its OS. It's you. The easiest device to hack is a person. And you have to get pretty well-educated on how breaches actually happen just to understand how and why your OS and anti-malware tools aren't enough. At that point, you are ready to start learning how to keep your stuff secure.

      * I assume you mean your sensitive information like IP address, email address, name, physical address, phone number, bank/cc account numbers, and so on.

  39. karlkarl

    You still need to activate the damn things over the internet each time they are factory reset.

    This DRM measure gives Apple the perfect chance to effectively disable them all within the period of 1-2 years.

    non-ethical scumbags!

  40. __sky.captain__

    You're kidding ... right?

    Quote:

    We should be applauding Apple for shooting itself in the foot, as it's done the Right Thing by consumers. Who else relies so heavily on an upgrade cycle, but then goes out of its way to avoid forced obsolescence?

    My response:

    The only reason Apple is doing anything different from their historic pattern of forcing obsolescence is that they got caught slowing old devices down so that people would have to upgrade their hardware. C'mon, you guys reported on this - why are you giving them angel's wings now that they are merely doing what they've been forced to do?

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