back to article Blighty: We spent £1bn on Galileo and all we got was this lousy T-shirt

There were heated exchanges at Parliament's Defence and European Scrutiny Committee this week as members attempted to get the Minister for Defence Procurement, Stuart Andrew, to put a figure on the cost of the Galileo project. Andrew did not have the number to hand, which prompted Mark Francois MP to splutter: "Oh come on, …

  1. John Robson Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Three weeks...

    When we're out it'll only take three weeks to recoup that though...

    Boris said so...

    (I would put the joke icon, but I don't actually think it's funny)

    1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

      Re: Three weeks...

      After I stab the brexiteers in their collective necks, you're all invited to my knighting ceremony at Buck House.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Three weeks...

        I'd rather laugh at you when you are in the dock for murder f**kwit.

        1. goldcd

          GBH surely

          I want them to stick around to share Sunday lunch rat with me.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: GBH surely

            "I want them to stick around to share Sunday lunch rat with me."

            No chance. They have their well insulated bolt holes all set up. You didn't think they were doing this for the benefit of ordinary folk - did you?

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: GBH surely

            You have rat? You lads don't know you're born. Outside London we eat human flesh and like it.

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "I'd rather laugh at you when you are in the dock for murder f**kwit."

          A Brexiteer without the balls to sign their own name.

          My prediction

          By the time the transition period ends the number of people who admit they voted to Leave will be as high as the number who admitted they voted for Oswald Mosely on VE night 1945.

          Not fu**king many.

          1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: "I'd rather laugh at you when you are in the dock for murder f**kwit."

            Who said anything about murder? Stab in the neck means stab in the neck...

            1. BebopWeBop Silver badge
              Joke

              Re: "I'd rather laugh at you when you are in the dock for murder f**kwit."

              I the same way that Brexit mens Brexit - well played

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Three weeks...

        You and the new EU Federal State Army? (Which they're actually building and if we remain will completely replace ALL internal armed forced - thats bye bye RAF, Royal Navy etc).

        And thats not hyperbole. the EU has announced this was its plan all along, despite lying their faces off saying they didn't want a "federal states of Europe" just before the referendum.

        1. MrJP

          Re: Three weeks...

          Citation on the EU "army" set to replace domestic forces, s'il vous plait?

        2. BongoJoe

          Re: Three weeks...

          But, but... They may have some aircraft that they can put onto our aircraft carriers!

        3. 45RPM Silver badge

          Re: Three weeks...

          @AC

          Sounds alright to me. I’d be quite happy with a federal Europe, and one European military. It’d save money overall - and give us a bigger stick to wave around too. No wonder the Putinists and Trumpists foment dissent over Europe - it’s just a pity that so many people believe their codswallop.

          But… but…, I hear you whine, that’d be undemocratic (it wouldn’t - we vote for our European government - undemocratic is leaving Europe on a flimsy to nonexistent mandate), Brussels doesn’t care about us. Brussels doesn’t understand us. And no more it does - at least, no more than London understands Manchester. Sod it - London doesn’t even understand Oxford. So we’d be no worse off.

          So how about this? Federal Europe for the big things - Defence, Trade, Human Rights, Galileo and so forth, and increased local government for the regions. That’s the way it was going before the simpleton / traitor Brexiteers screwed it all up. So thanks, ’tards.

          And breath /rant.

        4. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Three weeks...

          Oh noes. We can't rely on the US to bail us out given who's currently in charge but we can't do something like NATO does already but on a European scale as that would be The EU-Pan Galactic Empire Superstate Army Taking Away Our Sovrinty.

        5. strum Silver badge

          Re: Three weeks...

          >And thats not hyperbole.

          No - it's just a plain lie.

          There was never any prospect of an 'EU Army', while the UK was a member. Now we're leaving - that could change.

          1. Ian Johnston Silver badge

            Re: Three weeks...

            Bearing in mind that every single action, with the possible exception of the Falklands War, in which Britain has fought since WW2 has been a clusterfuck, why would an EU army be a bad idea?

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Three weeks...

            "There was never any prospect of an 'EU Army', while the UK was a member. Now we're leaving - that could change."

            Proof that if you look at a bad situation long enough, you will find a silver lining.

          3. No Salah

            Re: Three weeks...

            You haven’t heard of an EU Army? Just a big lie is it?

            Jeez don’t you guys have computers?

            If you did you could look up the EU's Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) on the internet.

            Here’s a sample of the information available there to members of the public who want to inform themselves...

            “The Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) is the part of the European Union's (EU) security and defence policy (CSDP) in which 25 of the 28 national armed forces pursue structural integration. Based on Article 42.6 and Protocol 10 of the Treaty on European Union, introduced by the Treaty of Lisbon in 2009, PESCO was first initiated in 2017.[1] The initial integration within the PESCO format is a number of projects planned to launch in 2018.”

        6. HolySchmoley

          Re: Three weeks...

          >the EU has announced this was its plan all along, despite lying their faces off

          That'll be the EU that the UK has been a core and influential member of for 45 years?

        7. Chris Parsons

          Re: Three weeks...

          Bravely posting anonymously.

    2. adam 40

      Re: Three weeks...

      A huge increase in National Health Service spending over the next five years is expected to be announced by Theresa May in a speech on Monday. The numbers are larger than expected and, significantly, allow the prime minister to say that she will deliver the resonant figure on the side of the Brexit bus, an increase of more than £350m a week. Indeed, by 2023 public spending would be £385m a week more in real terms than today.

      Boris was a lying git then, it wasn't £350m after all....

      1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

        Re: Three weeks...

        But how will it be funded? If it's not from Brexit savings then the bus was still absolute bullshit.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Three weeks...

          It will be funded by hyperinflation, £385M a week buying a loaf of bread or a course of antibiotics, patients choice.

  2. NoneSuch

    FFS

    This is the reality of a post-Brexit Britain.

    You voted for this (or didn't vote at all) and now it's time to pay the piper.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: FFS

      > "You voted for this (or didn't vote at all) and now it's time to pay the piper."

      Not to mention that IIRC the UK was involved in drawing up the rules that excluded non-EU members from Galileo.

      "'I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party." (Credit: Adrian Bott)

      1. technoise

        Re: FFS

        This non-EU nation is in the project.

        https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-becomes-major-partner-in-eu-satellite-program/

        1. Trollslayer Silver badge
          Flame

          Re: FFS

          Israel can join the Galileo program because they pay with money from the US.

          1. JohnG Silver badge

            Re: FFS

            "Israel can join the Galileo program because they pay with money from the US."

            The irony being that Galileo's raison d'etre is essentially: We (the EU) cannot trust the USA and their GPS.

        2. Lars Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: FFS

          "This non-EU nation is in the project."

          You find it all on the wikipedia like, and of course information on how much different countries pay.

          "In July 2004, Israel signed an agreement with the EU to become a partner in the Galileo project.[61]

          On 3 June 2005 the EU and Ukraine signed an agreement for Ukraine to join the project, as noted in a press release.[62]

          As of November 2005, Morocco also joined the programme

          ....."

        3. RJG

          Re: FFS

          Correct. They are an associate member, exactly the same as the UK now is.

          They are not a core member with access to all the secure encrypted protocols.

          that is the UK's complant.

          please try and keep up.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. Justthefacts

            Re: FFS

            Please explain what benefits access to the encryption give.....

            It only benefits military receivers with access to the encryption sequence. It isn’t relevant to ordinary citizens or commercially.

            So, *what wars would you like to fight* where that is a relevant consideration? Do you wish to exit NATO?

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: FFS

            >They are not a core member with access to all the secure encrypted protocols.

            I wonder (not really) what would have happened if we'd asked Lockheed Martin to move Trident from GPS to Galileo so we could have a genuinely independent nuclear capability.

            1. Robert Sneddon

              Trident

              The Trident missiles don't use GPS since they spend their time underwater a lot and GPS signals don't penetrate seawater very well. In flight after launch they use an internal inertial guidance system and in space at the top of their ballistic trajectory they use a star tracker system for final course changes before their descent to glory.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Trident

                >The Trident missiles don't use GPS since they spend their time underwater a lot and GPS signals don't penetrate seawater very well.

                Very sassy. The official line is 'Trident does not require GPS' or 'GPS is assumed to be non-operational' - nonetheless almost all test flights used it and failures of the inertial guidance system are a matter of public record - eg the Trident Missile Testing Defence Parliamentary Committee session from 2015 which was published last year.

                1. Robert Sneddon

                  Re: Trident

                  The test flights of Trident used GPS to monitor the missile's operation, not to control it in flight. It's kind of obvious, really, it wouldn't be a test of the inertial guidance system, a key component of the missile if they relied on GPS just for the test flights and just hoped the INU worked if, God forbid, it was ever used in anger.

                  There have been over 150 test flights of Trident D5 missiles over the years, nearly all have flown successfully. A few have failed, not a surprise there.

                  There's a lot of other military kit in use by British forces that does use GPS and we have access to the encrypted high-accuracy GPS data for that purpose as part of NATO. We can, of course, be locked out of that access if the US so chooses. They have changed their minds on this before and they control the system with no-one else allowed input. Galileo is a civilian global positioning system with military applications as a secondary benefit so access to the encrypted high-accuracy data it provides can be purchased for use for things like autolanding airliners and harbour manoeuvering of ferries etc.

                  What we're losing by leaving the EU is a place at the table deciding how Galileo is developed in the future and contracts to build the secure parts for it and we're no longer on the preferred supplier list for things like satellite components and integration since it's an EU project and EU-based companies will have first dibs rather than, say, SSTL.

                  1. Justthefacts

                    Re: Trident

                    You do know that none of what you say is actually true, right?

                    Harbour manoeuvring ferries.....you can’t use GPS-type nav for that, for multiple reasons. The issue isn’t the precision of the nav-code, (which makes zero difference for this type of application), nor even Dilution of Precision. River and harbour pilots are necessary because underwater sand-banks move. And radio reflections off the water cause positions in port to be off by 200meters quite often. End of. Shame neither you nor the EU actually *asked any Port Authorities* before claiming it.

                    Auto landing airliners is done via airport radio beacons. It’s a solved problem, and nobody is interested in GPS type nav for it.

                    “Deciding on the future direction” is pure control-freakery EU jargon. Why would you want to? It’s free, and a useful add-on to GPS. That’s all.

                    Missing out on contracts: Yes. Just exactly like we did when part of the EU. Both the SSTL and Astrium offers were cheaper, technically better, and would have come in on time, compared to the German OHB proposal, which was slideware. But, we lost the bid anyway. SSTL built two satellites in one quarter the time of OHB, to keep the orbital slots rescuing the whole project, and proved they were better, but still didn’t win the work. UK had to pay for SSTL tech demonstrators out of a separate budget, that wasn’t EU money. The EU financed only the (non-UK) launchers. Please give facts and which specific components you think are or might have been UK return on Galileo, had we stayed in?

                    1. Orv Silver badge

                      Re: Trident

                      Auto landing airliners is done via airport radio beacons. It’s a solved problem, and nobody is interested in GPS type nav for it.

                      There's actually quite a lot of interest, at least in the US. Maintaining all those radio beacons is expensive and they're seeing increased failure rates as the equipment ages. ILS will probably be the last to go, but we're already seeing experiments with using GPS instead of VOR beacons, allowing more direct flight paths.

                  2. Red Bren
                    Mushroom

                    Re: Trident

                    "There have been over 150 test flights of Trident D5 missiles over the years, nearly all have flown successfully. A few have failed, not a surprise there."

                    When you're incinerated in a nuclear apocalypse, it doesn't really matter if it the enemy's or your own side's nukes that are doing the incinerating...

                  3. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Trident

                    >The test flights of Trident used GPS to monitor the missile's operation, not to control it in flight. It's kind of obvious, really.

                    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38716446

                2. david 12 Bronze badge

                  Re: Trident

                  Test flights of the Trident missiles used GPS payloads to calibrate and test the inertial guidance system.

                  The Trident missile system has multiple-independently-targeted warheads: I don't know how they work. Nothing I've seen suggests that they use GPS (there are problems with reception, lock-in, and speed), but I don't have any specific information.

                  One of the first possible suggested uses for a proposed satellite navigation system was to provide location information for launch sites, to be used with alternate-launch-site missiles. I don't think GPS is used by submarines to get accurate launch location information (in any normal scenario, they would be underwater for long periods before launch), but again, I don't have any specific information.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Trident

                    >I don't think GPS is used by submarines to get accurate launch location information

                    Don't know why you think that - it's among the primary purposes for which it was created.

                    >Test flights of the Trident missiles used GPS payloads to calibrate and test the inertial guidance system.

                    Nope, GPS updates are received throughout flight - in fact Boeing have made much of the improved GPS unit they'll be adding under the contract they won last month to update and maintain the navigation subsystem. Reliance on GPS is of course a non-issue in the US......just a little problematic for UK claims of operational independence.

                    1. Chz

                      Re: Trident

                      It's *one* reason, not a primary one. The Americans are fully aware that a nuclear deterrent that requires GPS is worthless. US doctrine assumes GPS in peacetime, but not in a hot war. To use Trident as an example, an SSBN will occasionally get a GPS fix to verify its own location. But it doesn't have to, and does so rarely. In wartime, it may *attempt* a GPS fix - because who doesn't like to triple-verify things like that - but a launch can take place without it. To-the-metre location is not required for a successful D5 launch. You get a decent rough estimate of launch location and the stellar navigation can handle the rest. I mean - seriously - they were launching nukes from submarines for *decades* before GPS was around. It helps with accuracy, but given that they quote D5's CEP at under 100m, it can be out an order of magnitude and make little difference to the end effect. (Unless it's a first strike at hardened targets - but then GPS would be available)

                      To sum - GPS is optional and nice to have, but not at all required for the nuclear deterrent. There are plenty of *conventional* weapons that are near-useless without it though.

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: Trident

                        >they were launching nukes from submarines for *decades* before GPS was around.

                        Yep, previously they used NAVSAT. GPS was first introduced into the Trident's IGS on the D5, though launch platforms had already shifted by then. In the updated navigation sub-system finalised last month, the IGS is being spun off to Draper and will no longer include integral GPS as this is provided by a new discrete Boeing unit. But you know all this, cos you're like an expert and not just reading wikipedia or something.

              2. Smooth Newt
                Meh

                Re: Trident

                The Trident missiles don't use GPS since they spend their time underwater a lot and GPS signals don't penetrate seawater very well. In flight after launch they use an internal inertial guidance system and in space at the top of their ballistic trajectory they use a star tracker system for final course changes before their descent to glory.

                GPS was developed from a predecessor called TRANSIT which was developed during the Cold War specifically to provide US ballistic missile submarines with an accurate position prior to launching their missiles.1 GPS provides this functionality too, as well being extended to other branches of the military, and more recently to us proles too.

                Inertial guidance doesn't do diddly squat unless you know exactly where you started from. Whilst Trident missiles might not use GPS, the Trident launch platforms certainly do.

                1See for example page 3 of https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf99712826/pdf99712826dpi72pt01.pdf

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Trident

                  GPS technology was developed from a predecessor proposed during the cold war to provide Land-Based US ballistic missile launch sites with accurate position, because the process after moving the missiles around was so difficult (ie all day) by conventional means.. The idea was to move the missiles around by train.

                  Nuclear launch submarines stay underwater, and don't use GPS for positioning. GPS was developed (out of earlier ideas) to provide civilian navigation information, after the loss of an American airliner over Soviet Territory. Normally the US military is a bit pissed off at having such a huge chunk of "their" budget directed to political/civilian "research" projects, but it always been the case that the military is able to use civilian navigation aids. That approach was justified the first time the US military really wanted to use GPS, when they had to turn off jitter and supply civilian GPS receivers to the troops.

              3. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

                Re: Trident

                The Trident missiles don't use GPS

                ..since it probably won't be available in the case of a hot war - all those EMP bursts will fry the majority of satellies pretty quickly..

                1. Robert Sneddon

                  GPS and EMP

                  Nuclear EMP is unlikely to damage the GPS satellite constellation, or Beidou or GLONASS or Galileo either. The satellites in question orbit at an altitude of 20,000 km or so, far enough out so that any terrestrial or even stratospheric nuke bursts could damage them. They're already radiation-hardened given their operational environment which is another reason they're quite durable in the face of such energy-directed effects.

                  They fly in widely-separated orbits to provide maximum coverage on Earth with close to the minimum number of satellites and that means attempts to attack a complete satellite constellation directly is tricky since they'd need to be hunted down one by one, just about. I've seen unattributed statements that in a real hot war GPS could be knocked out quite quickly by the Other Side but there were no details on how this might be done.

                  1. Orv Silver badge

                    Re: GPS and EMP

                    Over smaller areas it's pretty easy to jam on the surface, but that's nothing like knocking out the whole system. Anti-satellite weapons are possible but not as easy as science fiction makes them out to be, and they can't be pre-deployed stealthily.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: FFS

        You almost hit the nail on the head. The overarching problem with the UK is that there have simply been one too many "No clubbing baby seal" parties, whose manifestos (in the small,small print) have actually advocated increased "baby seal club production" and reduced taxes on "baby seal meat and fur hats". Over half the country has lost ALL trust in the establishment to the point where we simply assume they are lieing... about absolutely everything and anything. This manifests a sort of relected reverse psychology wherein whatever they say is good for us, must be bad; whatever they say is true is clearly false. It's what caused brexit - child psychology 101. But you can't blame them - they do have a valid point (on the mistruths, not necessarily on brexit)

    2. RJG

      Re: FFS

      I'll just remind you that those in the top half of the UK voted strongly to stay in the EU.

      And one of the main arguments in the Scottish referendum for staying part of the UK was that if Scotland didn't stay it would be out of the EU.

      Guess how how well those arguments will work next referendum?

      1. seven of five

        Re: FFS

        U KOK it was, if I am not mistaken.

        Feel free to implement the ROI/NI border agreement as soon as you like along the river tweed and welcome back. (And pass me another can of IRN BRU, thank you very much.)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: FFS

        Of course the Scots wanted to stay in. They profited the most from the EU's generous farmer-sponsoring. In fact AFAIK the agricultural industry is the heaviest EU sponsored industry. Granted food is important but this fixation to the farming industry lead to a common disconnection with all the other industries and people. With brexit as a consequence.

        I'm not surprised that Brits voted against the EU. I AM surprised that nobody else had the guts to do the same. Nonetheless I'm (still) convinced that in the long run Brexit is not a Bad Thing(tm).

        We'll just have to take the bull by the horns, re-build our Industry again and become the technological force again that we once were. We need innovative ideas from innovative people like there used to be C. Sinclair, A. Sugar etc... Besides we don't need to be IN the political EU to make business treaties. In fact without all that red tape companies can deal with other companies directly. It used to work in the eighties (or other times before the EU) why can't it work now?

        1. steviebuk Silver badge

          Re: FFS

          One massive flaw with that argument, and I haven't down voted as your opinion is as valid as everyone else's, is that the government is allowing our tech to be sold off. We had ARM, but the Chinese bought that out and the UK government agreed it. The Chinese just took advantage of the weak pound at the time so they could get it cheaper. And that is the issue. They've been forced into an agreement that they have to keep the UK branch, but I don't expect that to last. Once that has run its course they'll probably shutdown the UK branch making everyone redundant.

          Also tariffs may be another that reason the tech industry and others will never pick up again in the UK.

          I don't know if it's the same as in the 80s but Alan Sugar said at the time (video interview of it is on YouTube) he made all his Amstrads abroad as there were tariffs in the UK. From rough memory I think there was a tariff he'd get hit with if the items were built and manufactured in the UK. He said because of this it worked out cheaper to get them made in abroad and then imported in.

        2. Charlie Clark Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: FFS

          We'll just have to take the bull by the horns, re-build our Industry again and become the technological force again that we once were.

          Still got your war pamphlets, I see.

          Dig for Britain

          <Britan can take it</i>

          They profited the most from the EU's generous farmer-sponsoring.

          Per person it's probably the welsh farmers who benefit most. Scotland makes most from the Barnet formuala for redistribution within the UK.

          Of course, those who make the most are the large agribusinesses and I don't see much changing there. Well, perhaps they'll push to replace Bulgarian and Baltic farm labourers with others they can pay even less.

          It used to work in the eighties (or other times before the EU)Did it bollocks, it was until the Single European Act that all trade barriers in the EU fell.

        3. HolySchmoley

          Re: FFS

          "We'll just have to take the bull by the horns, re-build our Industry again and become the technological force again that we once were. We need innovative ideas from innovative people like there used to be..."

          That speech would've made a good Monty Python sketch, with the orator sinking into the sea as the sun sets on the British Empire...

        4. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: FFS

          Of course the Scots wanted to stay in. They profited the most from the EU's generous farmer-sponsoring

          Your argument breaks down completely when you realise that another major farming region (Cornwall) votes leave in big numbers..

        5. Ken 16 Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: FFS

          That's the spirit, Mr AC. Soon you and your fellow South Britons will be driving around in your C5's, knocking up spiffing apps on your Amstrads and laughing at the Scots farmers for wanting to stay in business rather than eat new Zealand lamb like the English. Pretty soon the UK economy will be back to it's condition in the 1970's, with rocketing inflation, sterling in freefall and the IMF bailing it out, like the good old days!

          1. HolySchmoley

            Re: FFS

            "Soon you and your fellow South Britons will be driving around in your C5's, knocking up spiffing apps on your Amstrads and laughing at the Scots farmers for wanting to stay in business rather than eat new Zealand lamb like the English."

            Hang on! I'm English. I live in the "Home Counties", and if anyone could show a way for those counties to become an annexe of Scotland rather than of self-serving Westminster Bozos I'd be there in a flash. So would many other "South Britons" I know.

        6. whoelse

          Re: FFS

          If those companies are in the EU27, Britain must trade with them in line with any agreed trading rules with Europe. That's kind of the whole point, whether it's done under a deal, or onerous WTO rules. Brexiters like to say that Europe trades more to Britain than vice versa - and that;s true, as a net sum, which hides the reality that a far smaller percentage of EU exports go to the UK than vice versa, and this is why the EU27 were in a far stronger negotiating position. Only 2 EU nations are exposed badly, and can be supported by the bloc, while the UK would taker a serious haircut, potentially exacerbating the rate of companies exiting too.

          WTO rules would also punish companies using the UK as part of "long workbench" cross-EU manufacturing - like the auto industry. Expect the golden handshake deals given to keep the Japanese car companies settled in the early days of Brexit to get picked apart quick enough if there's no deal.

      3. Roo
        Windows

        Re: FFS

        "Guess how how well those arguments will work next referendum?"

        Brexit was never about planning ahead...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: FFS

          No more referenda or elections, the people spoke in 2016 and must never be asked anything ever again lest they betray Democracy.

    3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: FFS

      "you voted for this (or didn't vote at all) and now it's time to pay the piper."

      Who's this "you" you had in mind? Wasn't me and I rather think it wasn't most UK voters on here.

  3. _LC_
    Holmes

    They're up, and they can't run away.

    Not everything is as 'flexible' as Boris Johnson.

  4. illuminatus

    Well, who'd have thought it?

    "Andrew reckoned the EU's decision was "short-sighted" and professed himself "annoyed" at the situation whereby Brit taxpayers had shovelled £1bn into the programme from which they would now be locked out."

    The same Brit taxpayers who have exercised their will to flounce. Actions have consequences, so suck it up.

    1. Mark 85 Silver badge

      Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

      Actions have consequences, so suck it up.

      Exactly. From the west side of the pond, it appears to be the norm that things are not thought out by those in power. While Brexit may or may not have been a good idea and purely politically motived by those in power, no one thought further than the vote. Too many times we've seen where actions have re-actions and consequences far beyond the initial action.

      1. goldcd

        I think the issue was the binary question

        1) Leave things as they are

        2) Change things

        Option 2 leaves quite a lot of wriggle room for personal interpretation/bullshitting.

        1. EvilDrSmith

          Re: I think the issue was the binary question

          Goldcd,

          >I think the issue was the binary question

          >1) Leave things as they are

          >2) Change things

          Not entirely true.

          I have seen numerous people that support 'remain' claiming that they knew what they were voting for/it was to keep things as they were, yet this is incorrect: the EU is not static, but is constantly changing.

          If you voted to leave things as they were, then, as (relatively trivial) examples, your vote has already been overturned by:

          the implementation of PESCO (occurred after the vote)

          the reduction in the percentage of tariffs raised by the Common External Tariff (which are, of course, actually paid by UK consumers, so amount to the UK 'sending money' to the EU) kept by the home nation from 25% (2016) to 20% (2017) (with commensurate increase from 75% to 80% paid to the EU).

          Remain voters (assuming they were moderately intelligent and informed) voted for ever closer union - constant change, in a direction that was broadly known, but with huge uncertainty in the details.

          So the options were:

          Vote for moderate uncertainty (change things a little, but continuously), and a broad direction of travel that was known

          Vote for extensive uncertainty (change thing a lot), on an entirely different direction of travel

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "2) Change things"

          Correct.

          Leave voters voted for a blank sheet of paper which the "architects" of this BS promised would be filled in later.

          It now has.

          Many of the Leave voters (or "Banjos") don't like it.

          Felt like you were being played? You were.

      2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

        "no one thought further than the vote."

        Because few in power thought it was a good idea and didn't believe the vote would swing over to yes but were arm-twisted into calling the vote.

      3. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

        Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

        no one thought further than the vote

        I think that's being generous. I'm not sure anyone actually understood what "Vote To Leave The EU" actually meant.

        1. Craig 2

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          "I'm not sure anyone actually understood what "Vote To Leave The EU" actually meant."

          Easy: Tabloids told them migrants were the source of all our problems which would magically disappear if we left the EU.

          1. Terry 6 Silver badge

            Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

            And add, "straight cucumbers" etc. Years and years of the press and anti-EU politicians saying that the EU were imposing this and that on us. Almost all either lies or stuff we'd agreed to. And those bureaucrats are a myth too. From the same stable. They are no different to our own (Some are our own) officials. But the EU laws are made by our elected EU parliament and our national elected ministers. We had control, we're not taking it back. We are giving it away. Along with our freedom of movement. The 27 have 26 other countries to move around in. Us.?

          2. Rainer

            Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

            > Easy: Tabloids told them migrants were the source of all our problems

            > which would magically disappear if we left the EU.

            It's not the only thing that will disappear, I'm afraid.

    2. Alan Johnson

      Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

      "Actions have consequences, so suck it up."

      The issue is I didn't vote for it and the consequences so far seem likely to be inline with what I expected - The deal we can negotiate is manifestly far worse than being in so we will be unable to agree a deal and will leave without one. Leaving without a deal will be worse than leaving with the deal we could negotiate so we will get the worst possible outcome.

      I remember many of the Brexiteers saying how strong the UK negotiating position was and how easy it would be to negotiate a favourable deal. Davis I seem to remember said it would be 'one of the easiest in human history'. Complete fantasy and obvious that Farage and others who distance dthemeselves from any involvement in delivery knew it. Davis and Johnson only realised once they were involved and jumped ship when it was clear that what was promised could not be delivered.

      1. Robert D Bank

        Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

        There are plenty spaces for heads on pikes on Westminster bridge.

        Seriously though, what a complete cluster fuck. At the very LEAST, give yourself time before triggering Article 50 to ascertain, in detail, what the implications are.

        Hard to apportion blame appropriately between the intransigent EU bureaucrats (unelected arseholes on the gravy train) and UK fucking chancers out for a vote. Let them fight it out in a lime pit somewhere.

        This whole Brexit thing makes NHS IT contracts, PFI and the likes of Cr4pita, Carillion and the like look like shrinking violets by comparison in their up front audacity to rip the UK public off.

        Bend over, supply your own butter and take a deep breath.

        1. tin 2

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          Have to agree entirely. TBH I'm not sure how even the most rabid brexiteer didn't immediately clock the Irish border and say "ahh well I would have loved to have done that, but it's obviously impossible".

        2. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          There are plenty spaces for heads on pikes on Westminster bridge.

          No, we are a 48% civilised country, we don't put heads on pikes these days (although it has a strong emotional appeal, and would undoubtedly be a major tourist attraction for years - helping our foreign trade balance, which I'm sure they would appreciate, if they were alive to do any appreciating)

          No, they should all spend the rest of their days in a 10x10ft cell in Dartmoor, only coming out for 12 hours work a day breaking rocks in an open-air quarry, regardless of the weather. The whole thing being livestreamed 24/7. Vindictive? Moi?

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

            @ Pen-y-gors

            "No, we are a 48% civilised country"

            So accept the results of the 3 democratic votes? 1 GE for a referendum, 1 referendum and 1 GE.

            "No, they should all spend the rest of their days in a 10x10ft cell in Dartmoor, only coming out for 12 hours work a day breaking rocks in an open-air quarry, regardless of the weather. The whole thing being livestreamed 24/7. Vindictive? Moi?"

            I think you are rubbing up against that civilised but when talking of vindictive dreams. At least leave voted for change (3 times).

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          At the end of the day there was a referendum and a result. Just quit whining and fucking be done with it.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

        Can we have the heads of Farage, Boris and Davis on a post outside Parliament?

        After all they promised that we'd all be in the land of milk and roses by now and enjoying the fruits of that £350M/week.

        Instead we are up shit creek without a paddle.

        The deal will get thrown out on its ears and come 29th March we will have 100 miles of lorries stuck trying to flee the country as the borders close.

        A few weeks later, the situation will get worse leading to food and drug rationing.

        The pound will crash below the $1==£1 level and our interest rates will rise to 10% in an attempt to stop the exodus of cash and businesses to Europe.

        Sell, that's one scenario...

        We have to hope that it does not come to that.

        What are the odds eh?

        Boris and co will be long gone (unless he becomes PM by some freak of nature) to foreign parts.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          And that's the best case outlook

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "Can we have the heads of Farage, Boris and Davis on a post outside Parliament?"

          You missed out Jacob Rees Mogg.

          I think you'll find Somerset Asset Management (both the London and Dublin branches) will definitely have been making investments to increase the family fortune.

          The more I look into his behavior the more I think he's in it for the bucks rather than the beliefs.

          At least with Gove you could predict you were in trouble when he stands behind you.

          1. DwarfPants

            Re: "Can we have the heads of Farage, Boris and Davis on a post outside Parliament?"

            And revenge for daddies humiliation

        3. Mark 65 Silver badge

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          Can we have the heads of Farage, Boris and Davis on a post outside Parliament?

          I'd have thought May should be first up. Negotiating a deal that hands over billions with a loose "might do" text as regards a future "maybe" trade deal doesn't sound like a deal you could sell to anyone. In fact it looks like the sort of deal you'd negotiate if you want it to never get across the line back home. I'd like to give credit and say there's some kind of greater end game in play here but it seems more like she'd just like to be done with it and bring on the famous Tory long knives to end her term.

          Not sure Corbyn is particularly offering any alternatives.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

            "I'd have thought May should be first up. ..."

            The trouble is that May most probably really wants to deliver "Brexit", something I think many of her Brexiteers colleagues have forgotten. May wants to have an election "post-Brexit" and be able to say she (and the Conservative party) delivered on "the will of the people". In this context (ie. winning the next general election) it doesn't really matter what 'Brexit' is, just so long as it can carry the 'Brexit' label and the Conservatives can claim to have delivered it.

            1. Terry 6 Silver badge
              Pint

              Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

              Roland6 Yes. See icon. Deserved.

          2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

            I'd have thought May should be first up. Negotiating a deal that hands over billions with a loose "might do" text as regards a future "maybe" trade deal doesn't sound like a deal you could sell to anyone.

            The great betrayal fallacy. May was the elected leader of the party that wanted to push ahead with leaving. She appointed pro-leavers to the job of top negoatiators. And this is the best they could come up with. Rinse and repeat and you won't change much because the UK wants access to the single market and doesn't want border controls with Ireland reintroduced.

        4. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          Boris and co will be long gone (unless he becomes PM by some freak of nature

          I think we can pretty much guarentee that his political career is pretty much over (apart from remaining an MP).

      3. ITfarmer

        Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

        50+ people up voted how disasterous a Remainer Prime Minister and Remainer Civil Servant have made a complete and utter farce of UK Democracy.

        You must be a complete bunch of morons .. I'm surprised you've got the brain power and the gall to type this rubbish.

        I don't know why THIS rag has a bunch of Left wing morons on it .. perhaps you're just young, who knows.

        God knows how you can justify lying supporting Teresa May the traitor.

        The EU is ALL about Germany and France .. that's why over the past 40 years you've seen manufacturing leave the UK in the MILLIONS of jobs. For 40 years we've seen our coastal towns destroyed by the EU with the help of HMG.

        There will be repercussions .. the time for giving Remainers their fair share has GONE.

        David Davis was undermined COMPLETELY by Traitor Mrs May .. she even took most of his neogitiators off him and gave them to Olley Robinson. David Davis had a free trade plan.

        Just look a the cr@ppy mess created by Mrs May .. a REMAINER.

        A dirty little filthy disgusting traitor REMAINER.

        If you love the EU so much bugger off and live there .. I have for over 10 years. At least I know what Europeans think of the UK.

        1. Alister Silver badge

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          @ITfarmer

          I don't know why THIS rag has a bunch of Left wing morons on it .. perhaps you're just young, who knows.

          In what universe is it a Left Wing thing to support Theresa May? She's a Right Wing politician FFS.

          The EU is ALL about Germany and France .. that's why over the past 40 years you've seen manufacturing leave the UK in the MILLIONS of jobs.

          No, over the past 40 years, various flavours of UK government have systematicaly destroyed most of the manufacturing industries all by themselves. And had it not been for certain protections offered by EU employment law, they'd have removed most ordinary workers rights completely.

          It makes no difference whether May voted to leave or remain, not even the most rabid remainer could have made much difference to the way this is turning out.

        2. Killing Time

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          @ ITfarmer

          'If you love the EU so much bugger off and live there .. I have for over 10 years. At least I know what Europeans think of the UK.'

          Is it possible your perception of your neighbours feelings towards the UK may not be general but far more personal?

          1. Outski

            Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

            'If you love the EU so much bugger off and live there ..'

            I already do live in the EU. Various flavours of.... well, a word I wouldn't permit my children to use want to yank that very lovely blue and gold rug from under my feet

        3. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          @ITFarmer

          Nice try at sarcasm, but this statement David Davis was undermined COMPLETELY by Traitor Mrs May gave it away.

          David Davis and Boris Johnson undermined themselves - remember they agreed to the Chequers Plan... Then David Davis, along with a bunch of other Brexiteers then stood up in public with Mogg and showed themselves up to be deluded idiots...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

            I found it very interesting that a proposal by Davis in a newspaper column of his - thus not a hurried off the cuff response to a question in an interview - seems to indicate that he had/has no clue what he was supposedly negotiating for two years as Brexit secretary... otherwise he would not have been advocating using the transition period to negotiate a better deal after crashing out with no deal.

            He kind of makes a bookend with 'I never realized Dover-Calais trade was so important' Raab.

        4. heyrick Silver badge

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          "If you love the EU so much bugger off and live there .."

          I have, and people like you are fucking it up.

        5. Charlie Clark Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          For 40 years we've seen our coastal towns destroyed by the EU with the help of HMG.

          More like cheap travel led to people preferring to spend their holidays in Mallorca, Greece or Croatia as going to any UK airport around Christmas demonstrates. No idea why this is the case. Wonder if the weather has anything to do with it?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

            >>For 40 years we've seen our coastal towns destroyed by the EU with the help of HMG.

            >More like cheap travel led to people preferring to spend their holidays in Mallorca, Greece or Croatia as >going to any UK airport around Christmas demonstrates. No idea why this is the case. Wonder if the >weather has anything to do with it?

            Greece joined the EU in 1982. Spain in 86. Croatia a mere 5 years ago. People were going to these places long before they were in the union.

            Cheap air travel saw the death of miserable UK seaside resorts, not the EU. Just like the supermarkets followed by the internet (compounded by politicians doing fuck all about it) saw the destruction of the high street, not the arrival of foreigners, who for some reason still wanted local shops rather than Tesco.

            1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

              Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

              Greece joined the EU in 1982. Spain in 86. Croatia a mere 5 years ago. People were going to these places long before they were in the union.

              Visa-free travel was largely driven by the EU. The Open Skies programme has been a key driver of opening up the flights market in Europe. Yes, people were going somewhere foreign for their holidays before the Treaty of Luxemburg but the rolling back of borders certainly accelerated the trend.

        6. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          @ITFramer

          If you love the EU so much bugger off and live there .. I have for over 10 years. At least I know what Europeans think of the UK.

          I've lived in the EU for many years, still do. It's a little country called Wales. I want to continue living in the EU, but a bunch of mindless, selfish, gullible twats are taking that right away from me.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

            @ Pen-y-gors

            "I've lived in the EU for many years, still do. It's a little country called Wales. I want to continue living in the EU, but a bunch of mindless, selfish, gullible twats are taking that right away from me."

            No we aint. The EU is just over there, feel free to go. If you consider the majority of the UK to be mindless, selfish, gullible twats then you might be happier over there. And please take those other remoaning mindless, selfish, gullible twats with you. Stop trying to take the UK away from us. You cant even get a democratic majority in 2 votes (referendum and GE).

            1. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

              "No we aint. The EU is just over there, feel free to go."

              An insightful comment Codejunky!

              This perception of separateness I think is key to understanding some of the relationship issues this country (and probably its just the English) has with the EU and Continental Europe over the decades. Many in the UK have failed to grasp that if you live in a nation that is a member of the EU then you are living in the EU - but not in Continental Europe.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

                @ Roland6

                "An insightful comment Codejunky!"

                I wasnt trying to be funny with him, just pointing out that we have not taken away his 'right' to be in the EU, it is in existence without us its just over there. And his 'right' to want to be in the EU does not undermine 3 votes to remove ourselves further. The worrying part is he thinks he has a 'right' over all these people he seems to dislike.

                "This perception of separateness I think is key to understanding some of the relationship issues this country (and probably its just the English) has with the EU and Continental Europe over the decades."

                It is to be expected to have a long and not all happy relationship with such close neighbours. Throw in the geographically close and conflicting empires throughout history and it isnt shocking that another empire is not warmly welcomed. Even throughout the EU the populations are unhappy with the EU, this isnt a UK or English thing.

                It amazes me the fight to remain but only because we opted out of so much. The EU project is so wonderful and desirable that we do not wish to join it proper, and even with our arms length participation the majority voted for change in 3 votes, leave in 2 votes.

            2. This post has been deleted by its author

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

                @ HolySchmoley

                Sorry if it wasnt clear to you but 'No we aint' was to the amusing claim that those voting leave took away his supposed 'right' to be in the EU. As I said "No we aint. The EU is just over there, feel free to go.".

                Hope that is clear.

                1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

                  Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

                  His claim was only amusing if you find others misfortune funny.

                  Because of backwards people like you, we aren't "free to go".

                  Hope that is clear.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

                    @ Jamie Jones

                    "His claim was only amusing if you find others misfortune funny."

                    His claim was amusing because it was not only crap but not even polished crap. How is it his misfortune that he lives in a democracy and is free to leave for the very place he is claiming to desire to be?

                    "Because of backwards people like you, we aren't "free to go"."

                    Erm, why? Why cant he go? Its just over there. He can go.

                    "Hope that is clear."

                    Not really. Sounds like you are moaning but there is no clear reason. Seems your comment exists only so you can call me backwards. I dont really know how to respond to that without being condescending- awww, there there

                    1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

                      Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

                      If you gave a crap about democracy, you would welcome a referendum based on the final situation, especially as the first was run on illegal campaigning and lies.

                      But then, you know that current polls show that over half the voters want to remain, which scares you no end. Democracy? When it suits you.

                      Now, even ignoring the fact that he already lives in the EU, and you're taking that away from him, explain how he can move to Europe? Removal of free travel and immigration rights doesn't just apply to the UK and the "bloody foreigners pinching our jobs, houses, and benefits"

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

                        @ Jamie Jones

                        "If you gave a crap about democracy, you would welcome a referendum based on the final situation"

                        Only if I gave a crap about removing democracy yes. That is not what I want, I like democracy and the people being able to make a choice. We dont have do-overs every time a new government is formed and they 'adjust' their promises. However if you give a damn about democracy you would know we have had 3 votes to say we want a say and 2 of those to say leave the EU. The only democratic option now is to leave the EU. Hell the argument for another bloody vote is to stop brexit, not democratic.

                        "especially as the first was run on illegal campaigning and lies."

                        Yes it was. Both official campaigns lied. The gov and BoE abused their position. Rigged the vote and still lost badly. Yet the remain propaganda campaign has continued long after the votes. And not for democratic preparing for the next election to fight to rejoin the EU but instead to overturn the 3 democratic votes.

                        "But then, you know that current polls show that over half the voters want to remain, which scares you no end. Democracy? When it suits you."

                        Such polls similar to before the referendum. 1 vote for a referendum, 1 referendum and another general election where the remain party almost wiped out completely. At what point are you confused about democracy?

                        "Now, even ignoring the fact that he already lives in the EU, and you're taking that away from him, explain how he can move to Europe?"

                        What argument is that? You go to Scotland and tell them they didnt deserve an independence vote because they already live in the UK and it would be taking that away from them. Also how are you confused about how he can go to Europe? He could emigrate to the EU. It has not been taken away from him, it still exists. Why does his minority opinion overrule democracy? That is not very democratic.

                        "Removal of free travel and immigration rights doesn't just apply to the UK and the "bloody foreigners pinching our jobs, houses, and benefits""

                        Travel isnt free. You actually perform a transaction of money for passage by train, boat or air. Or is your argument that the EU doenst want him? Because he is free to leave the UK.

                      2. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

                        @ Jamie Jones

                        Important follow up. Why is there such a huge fight to remain, but no fight to join the EU proper? Some people want to remain, but not rejoin because then we lose our opt-outs etc. The EU is so wonderful and great that we dont want to join it because it is a mess, it is awful and we prefer to be at-least arms length away.

                        Even with our opt outs there is no vote to remain. A GE demanding a choice, a referendum majority out (remain couldnt even get a piddly 50%) and then another GE where the only party promising to ditch democracy and ignore the referendum are left with a handful of people. A few thousand people wandering the street with some of them maybe knowing what the protest is about doesnt change that they are not an overwhelming majority, nor even a majority!

                        It is almost like this is the last stand for the lost cause. The desperation to remain now with opt outs is paramount or we would never join such a bad political union.

          2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Unhappy

            "I've lived in the EU for many years, still do. It's a little country called Wales. "

            Hilarious that Wales and the North East were two of the biggest Leave voting areas and the only areas in surplus to the EU IE the EU owes them money.

            This sort of self-harm isn't cutting yourself with a craft knife.

            It's playing a blow torch over your arm.

        7. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          David Davis was undermined COMPLETELY

          Given how little effort he put into his job (as conveyed by ex-Civil Servants and his own public appearances) I fail to see that there was anything to undermine..

        8. This post has been deleted by its author

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        10. This post has been deleted by its author

        11. Jamie Jones Silver badge

          Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

          "David Davis was undermined COMPLETELY by Traitor Mrs May .. she even took most of his neogitiators off him and gave them to Olley Robinson. David Davis had a free trade plan.

          Just look a the cr@ppy mess created by Mrs May .. a REMAINER.

          A dirty little filthy disgusting traitor REMAINER."

          Blimey! What a totally unhinged rant, complete with random capitalised words and everything! You are a typical brexitter!

          May is defintitely not a remainer. Where have you been the last 2 years? The hypocrite pretended to support remain when she was still under Cameron. sure. but that was the obvious lie.

          Anyway, where the hell do you get that we all support May? As a staunch remainer, I hate May. I'm not old enough to remember much about thatchers politics first hand, so can easily say that May is the worst and most slimey politician I've experienced (and I can even remember Blair)

          The sad thing is, when everyting crashes and burns, you and your other daily mail friends will still be blaming the EU/remainers.

          By the way, can you tell me why Rees-Mogg has moved all his companies assets and interests from the UK to Ireland?

          "If you love the EU so much bugger off and live there .. I have for over 10 years. At least I know what Europeans think of the UK"

          Trumpites use the line "if you hate the USA and freedom so much, why don't you move to North Korea?"

          I'd say to you, if you don't want to live in Europe, you bugger off. You are now responsible for slowly turning us into a jingoistic nation, exploited by the rich and elite who don't actually give a crap about us - a nation where those like you who will suffer the most are the very ones that will vote for the oppressors. You didn't need to do that. You could have taken your MUKGA hat and just moved to one of those instead.

          And as for what Europeans think about the UK, I've always found them to be fine. But how do you expect them to react when dealing with a blubbering manic old git who probably patronised them at every opportunity? It's little wonder your view is somewhat skewed.

    3. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

      Re: Well, who'd have thought it?

      Well, just because you donated £500 to the Golf Club towards the cost of building a new shower block doesn't mean you get to use it after you've resigned from the club.

  5. Adrian 4 Silver badge

    Short-sighted ? The EU ?

    It's not the EU who are displaying lack of foresight here.

    1. Mark 65 Silver badge

      Greek austerity, Italian rumblings? We'll see how foresighted they really are.

  6. Paul Crawford Silver badge
    Facepalm

    "Brit taxpayers had shovelled £1bn into the programme from which they would now be locked out due to rules we insisted on and which we then decided to become non-compliant with"

    Fixed his statement for him...

    It is sad and stupid, and the loss of privileged access to Galileo is also sad and stupid but entirely predictable.

  7. Clive Galway
    Pirate

    Spoof Galileo in the English Channel

    Send them all into the rocks along the Cornish coast ;)

    1. arctic_haze Silver badge

      Re: Spoof Galileo in the English Channel

      Most of the victims would be Irish ferries replacing the lorries stuck in Dover.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why all the upset about £1Billion?

    For the last 40 years the U.K. has paid 14% of every penny spent by the E.U., if we stay until 2020 they want another £10Billion.

    Those of us who voted in favour wanted a clean break and the time has been wasted trying to conjure up a deal that was never going to happen

    1. Killing Time

      @AC

      The referendum was a simple question, do we want to leave the EU. The Leave campaign was wholly based around, and sold to Joe Public, on our ability to negotiate a way out which would be beneficial to the UK, because if we couldn't reach a favourable deal we would just walk away.

      Despite this fantasy, at least those clowns understand reality enough to grasp the fact that a so called 'clean break' is the worst possible option. Any other deal we may be able to strike with other trading blocks we will be the far weaker party, with no leverage and they will see how we treat trading partners. We will 'eventually' get deals which reflect our behaviour.

      Is it naivety or just intellectually challenging for you to understand this?

      I don't believe you speak for the entirety of the leave voters, at least the ones I speak to grasp the basic facts of the situation.

    2. werdsmith Silver badge

      The £1 billion is not really lost, this is stupid headline reporting.

      Work done by Airbus in UK and SSTL in Guildford, who are part of Airbus and the other tech companies who have contributed so far is going to be paid up as per the contract. So a sizable chunk of the billion, ir not all of it, has come back into the economy.

      1. MatthewSt

        Woah there! Don't be letting facts get in the way of an EU piñata session! If they have to start telling the truth then they'll all be out of a job!

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      >Those of us who voted in favour wanted a clean break

      Delusional in thinking that all 17.2M wanted the same thing...

      The only thing 17.2M people voted for was a direction of travel, at no time have they been given an option to express an opinion about the mode of travel...

      Additionally, whilst the hard Brexiteers might have wanted a "clean break", what they overlook is that once the UK leaves, the UKs negotiating position will be much much weaker than it is now; al the fun-and-games with the EU27 is just a taster to the fun and games we will have with the WTO...

      1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Ah Yes, the WTO

        The very organisation that El Trumpo wants to destroy.

        Frying pan meet fire?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      >Why all the upset about £1Billion?

      During Osborne's tenure as Chancellor he printed (Quantitatively Eased) £450 Billion and the last two governments have increased the ridiculous national debt of £700 Billion left by Labour to £1800 Billion.

      Seems odd everyone is getting so exercised over the odd 30 or 40 billion quid here and there.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        > Seems odd everyone is getting so exercised over the odd 30 or 40 billion quid here and there.

        This is just bike shedding taken to its extreme. And there is little talk about how Galileo will progress, after all it is a project that is far from completed.

      2. Seven_Spades

        The Labour parties legacy was a welfare state so large that no government can reign it in. The sheer number of benefits that exist now that simply did not exist during the 70's and 80's is the biggest problem. Out sourcing in the NHS along with PFI means that the NHS ow accounts for ⅓ of the entire UK budget. The country has been completely mismanaged for years.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          So I take it you refuse to use anything created by Labour? You don't use the NHS or intend to have a pension etc?

          Obviously I can't prove if you do or don't use any of those, but you're the one who'd have to live with his sense of dishonor, no matter how you convince yourself "i paid taxes i deserve this"

        2. JassMan Silver badge

          @seven_spades

          where do you get your statistics from? All the reputable sites say NHS spending has never exceeded 8% which is less than a quarter of your 33%.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          >The Labour parties legacy was a welfare state so large that no government can reign it in.

          Tedious argument - rather like the Tory dogma of 'make work pay' when most benefit recipients are in work which still doesn't even with the government subsidy to their employers.

          The failure to plan for social care, enforce living wages and build affordable housing (or have rent control like pretty much every other major country) is decades old, cross party and the primary driver of welfare costs.

      3. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

        FUD Central Nervous System

        £1.8 Trillion back to whom and/or what for what and/or whom is the thin edge of the Grand Ponzi Hedge. ..... What Would Happen If USA Stopped Paying Its Debt? ...... and all debts are still rising, and are never able to be paid back. It is a Sweet Bear Raging Bull Trap for the Pleasures and Fiat Paper Enrichment of Bankers Seeding and Feeding Old Analogous Global Command and Control Assistants in Ages and Spaces/Times and Places which have AI Remote Virtualised Control of SCADA Command Systems.

        Picturing things into another uncomfortable perspective ...... https://youtu.be/XqUwr-Nkq9g

        1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

          Re: FUD Central Nervous System @amanfrommars 1

          That nearly made sense to me.

          Am I going mad?

          1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: FUD Central Nervous System @amanfrommars 1

            That nearly made sense to me.

            Am I going mad?

            No - your brain is simply tuning to a different channel.

            Of course, to the outside observer the difference might be inperceptible..

          2. EvilDrSmith

            Re: FUD Central Nervous System @amanfrommars 1

            Peter,

            >Am I going mad?

            Possibly, there seems to be a lot of it going about...

    5. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      "Those of us who voted in favour wanted a clean break and the time has been wasted trying to conjure up a deal that was never going to happen"

      *SOME* of you who voted in favour wanted a clean break. I know that for a fact because I know people who voted leave and expected a staged and managed withdrawal

      I suspect that most of those who voted for leave and wanted a hard brexit barely gave a thought to the consequences of that action.

      1. iainr

        Equally anyone who has any sense must have known that given how the EU works a staged, managed withdrawal was never going to happen. The two phrases that I've always seen waved around any major political decision within the EU are "nothings agreed until everythings agreed" and "it all gets agreed at the last minute".

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          "Equally anyone who has any sense must have known that given how the EU works a staged, managed withdrawal was never going to happen. "

          And here we are, a day or so later and the staged and managed withdrawal is all approved apart from the HoC vote on it. 27 countries have agreed to the deal as laid out. But one country can still scupper it all. Us.

    6. 45RPM Silver badge

      I love the way that nearly all the Brexiteers are Anonymous Coward. Talk about having confidence in your convictions.

      If you have an opinion and you sign @AC it’s tantamount to admitting that, deep down, you know that you’re wrong - but you’re too stubborn to publicly admit it.

      1. adam 40
        Pint

        Brexiteer and Proud

        Not only that - I like my Brexit Hard (especially in the morning )

        Pint logo for the good old British Pint - the one thing they never took away from us, and at the end of the day kept Britannia alive in our souls.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I love the way that nearly all the Brexiteers are Anonymous Coward. Talk about having confidence in your convictions.

        Are you claiming that your name is really 45RPM? Everyone is anonymous to some extent on here. Not posting as AC reveals some information but hardly enables complete identification.

    7. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Those of us who voted in favour wanted a clean break

      There was no such concept as "clean break" or "clean Brexit" at the time of the referendum. "Clean Brexit" only appeared this year.

      2 weeks after the vote, only 35% of Leavers thought their vote meant leaving the SM.

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Clean break form the EU ( will continue typing when the hysterical laughter stops).

        And anyone who wanted a "clean break" was frankly beyond pure delusion. How do you even think you can have a clean break from your neighbours? You can't even do that in your local street, let alone a continent. We need to trade, share borders, share intelligence, share manufacturing, share design, share patents and so on.

        I do recall some idiot Brexiteer posting on Twitter or somewhere like that, that we could design and build our own cars, without needing to import any parts. They didn't seem to have any details about how this would work, though.

    8. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

      Those of us who voted in favour wanted a clean break

      And really, really, really didn't understand international finance, treaties and trade.

      Here's a hint: Treaties and agreements that we have signed up to for the last 40 years don't magically disappear just because you want them too - any more than the mobile contract that you agreed to a month ago (and now want to cancel) will cease without you paying a leaving fee.

      It's not a difficult concept and only someone with either something to sell or very little brain indeed would realise it.

    9. HolySchmoley

      "Those of us who voted in favour wanted a clean break"

      A what?

      Impressed that you know what a "clean break" is whilst those in the politics industry have been arguing the toss for two years still don't have the vaguest idea. Or perhaps you don't either.

      Haven't Got a Clue means Haven't Got a Clue, as Ms. May might have said with the deep insight of a politician.

  9. JLV Silver badge

    and so it continues. I really wish El Reg would let Tim Worstall re-explain his rainbows and unicorns once again in a guest article. Smart guy, but one wonders in this case.

    Trump => 4 years (surely not 8?)

    Brexit will keep on giving for a long time. Long past those who voted for it too.

    I wonder if the - beneficial - aspects of the UKs traditional role in nuking some of the EU's more daft - usually French - proposals will be outweighed by its salutary inspiration on what NOT to do. Wonder what this spectacle will do for Le Pen's snake oil, for example.

    Will it out-Greece Greece in that regard? I sincerely hope not, but this is certainly on track to be some massive foot machine-gunning.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "I really wish El Reg would let Tim Worstall re-explain his rainbows and unicorns once again in a guest article. "

      Probably too busy helping with whip rounds to pay the fines for Leave campaign money launderers.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        You realize the "second vote" "campaign" is being lead by billionaires such as Rupert Murdoch and people who want "ordinary scum" to HAVE to take minimum wage or be outcompeted by 10s of millions of desperate people right?

        2 years of ghost stories by mass media corporations controlled directly by their overlords.

        1. Version 1.0 Silver badge
          Unhappy

          I seem to remember that someone said "Leave means leave" ... nobody mentioned Galileo during the referendum campaign ... think of Galileo as being just another water cannon, we can sell our contribution off for scrap in a couple of years.

        2. Terry 6 Silver badge

          That's actually the reverse of the truth.

          Murdoch's papers are totally pro-leave (Sun etc.) Rees-Mogg, Rich. Dyson. Rich. Johnson, hardly a struggling pauper, writing columns for the papers about why we need to leave....The list goes on.

    2. Tim Worstal

      Well....

      "I really wish El Reg would let Tim Worstall re-explain his rainbows and unicorns once again in a guest article. Smart guy, but one wonders in this case."

      I just think the EU is a terrible system which no one should belong to, let alone us. Entirely an arguable idea but that's where it all stems from. Centralised control of the lives of 500 million people just doesn't seem to work for me.

      Chacon a son gout, obviously.

  10. TRT Silver badge

    I reckon...

    it's still cheaper than HS2.

  11. codejunky Silver badge

    Meh

    On the plus side we dont get ripped off by the EU for any of their other ideas. I am glad to hear one MP is challenging if building our own is worth it.

    1. Gordon 10 Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Meh

      We only got ripped off if the taxes and jobs it created added up to less than 1bn worth of benefit to the UK economy. I suspect we did rather well out of it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Meh

        > We only got ripped off if the taxes and jobs it created added up to less than 1bn worth of benefit to the UK economy. I suspect we did rather well out of it.

        That is an interesting issue and I have never seen anyone document it. Can you?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Meh

          'That is an interesting issue and I have never seen anyone document it. Can you?'

          Well if you read the article you will see the author eludes to it. Then all you have to do is investigate a little further. That way you can assuage your interest, if that interest is real, most genuinely inquisitive people do that.

          1. Contrex

            Re: Meh

            Elude or allude?

      2. detuur

        Re: Meh

        If that's true then it sounds like a great model for Britain-EU cooperation going forward then. You guys pay and build the satellites, and we'll just keep them. I can totally support that.

        But somehow I doubt you "did rather well out of it".

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Meh

      "I am glad to hear one MP is challenging if building our own is worth it."

      If results are more accurate when you have more data points, are we reaching the stage that there will be so many SatNav beacons in the sky that a good box with the relevant receivers and the right software can't get a highly accurate position using the jittery public signals?

      1. Jack of Shadows Silver badge

        Re: Meh

        The right software, with additional sources for refining the tuning of the model, is the key. One of the more interesting development projects I was involved with in the military was around this.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Meh

        An inexpensive automotive GPS, maybe 7 years old, gets 3m accuracy in a minute or two using GPS and GLONASS, at about 45 degrees North, which is probably north of the optimal zone.

  12. Chris G Silver badge

    Porcine aviation

    'Yeah let's leave the EU an' everything will be great again!'

    That was really well thought through wasn't it?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Porcine aviation

      At least we don't have to disband the Royal Navy, armed forced and RAF under the one-state one-army plan officially announced by the EU anyway. So thats a positive eh?

      pre-referendum "no federal states of Europe, plz stay"...post referendum: "We lied...one army for all of Europe and centralized EU control over EVERY aspect of defence without a veto"

      1. Glen 1 Bronze badge

        Re: Porcine aviation

        NATO minus America is hardly "one state one army".

        It's also one less stick the Americans can use to beat us with

      2. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: Porcine aviation

        EU army is not something that could happen if the members don't agree to it. And the 27 are not agreeing to it, in any shape of form ( even if some might, to save money). Every EU country will have some sticking points that they won't let the EU agree to. And there are plenty that won't agree to an EU controlled army. We aren't quite as exceptional as you think we are.

        1. the spectacularly refined chap

          Re: Porcine aviation

          It's never going to happen in any case, it is nonsense from the Brexiteers. No, nothing has been officially announced, finding a couple of random eurocrats vaguely musing the possibility does not amount to official policy statements.

          On the other hand we had already negotiated ourselves out of ever closer union. Also consider the nations remaining in the EU. On the one hand you have a nuclear power and multiple NATO members. On the other hand you have the likes of Ireland with a constitutional commitment to neutrality. You can't negotiate away such divergent attitudes and the proposal inevitably fails there.

      3. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

        Re: Porcine aviation

        At least we don't have to disband the Royal Navy, armed forced and RAF under the one-state one-army plan officially announced

        Ah yes - the old "unofficially announced" ploy. As in "I ate too much cheese one night and dreamed it"..

        (And the UK has a veto in the EU - so anything that *we* don't want isn't going to happen..)

  13. Rol Silver badge

    It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

    Well, I've transitioned through the various stages of shock and am now fully accepting of the reality to come. And in true British spirit will embrace the chaos to come as an opportunity.

    My double bed is currently three feet higher than usual. Propped up with 500 tins of baked beans, corned beef and sardines.

    I've emptied my immersion heater and disabled all the hot water taps so I could fill the system with Lambrusco Bianco.

    Come brexit, I'll be trading the necessities of life to the plebs that voted for this once in a lifetime foot shooting through a steel hatch, that I'll be completing over the coming months.

    Nothing like a disaster to line the pockets of those with the sense to see it coming.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

      "Nothing like a disaster to line the pockets of those with the sense to see it coming."

      You mean like Brexit supporter Nigel Lawson who has applied for a French residence permit to continue living in his house in France.

      People who will benefit are those rich enough to increase their stakes in the investment banking industry. Their wet dream is a "Singapore" UK - with deregulation of anything that currently protects the rights of ordinary people. Now who do we know with that profile?

      1. JLV Silver badge

        Re: It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

        >investment banking industry

        think again. I suspect a large part of the UKs attractiveness as a financial center is being an EU member. No doubt, the really big cheese won’t be suffering with the little people. But i’d be surprised if a large proportion of British investment bankers didn’t get shafted out of this. Yes, yes, they may not be all sympathetic but they pay taxes and spend money.

        EU bankers can head towards whichever city takes London’s place. Probably a net loss for the EU, but nowhere as dramatic.

        1. xyz123

          Re: It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

          Because Britain has never been powerful on its own right? ever?

          We're a tiny little island with the 5th largest economy on the planet. Doesn't that tell you something?

          Also the fact the EU BEGGED and PLEADED for the referendum to be scrapped. They need us more than we need them, but they're like an abusive boyfriend.

          "if you leave me, YOU'll be the one thats sorry, you're just not GOOD enough to live without me!" <sob>

          1. Terry 6 Silver badge

            Re: It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

            No. UK was powerful and independent when it was able to control trade with its colonies. You can't build a country on history. The world has changed. A lot. Fifth strongest economy, yes, because we are part of the EU. You need to join some dots.

          2. This post has been deleted by its author

          3. Cavehomme_ Bronze badge

            Re: It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

            “We're a tiny little island with the 5th largest economy on the planet.”

            Mainly thanks to the EU free trade zone.

            Before we joined, the UK had become an economic basket case, on the verge of seeking an IMF bailout. Then we joined the EC and it’s transformed our country for the better.

            1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

              Re: It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

              Then we joined the EC and it’s transformed our country for the better.

              Shh.. don't blow their minds with actual facts from actual history. Admittedly, it would be a small explosion..

              (I'm convinced most brexiteers have forgotten the 1970's and, in their minds, we go directly from 1940 to 2018..)

          4. strum Silver badge

            Re: It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

            >We're a tiny little island with the 5th largest economy on the planet.

            I think you'll find we've slipped down that scale somewhat. On some measures, India has a bigger economy than us.

            Yes, we used to be number one - but that was when we could 'trade' behind a huge army & navy. I don't think our salesmen can get away with shooting the competition, these days.

      2. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

        And Rees-Mogg (Mr. Hedge Fund) whose father wrote the book on profiting from disaster. etc.

      3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        Re: It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

        You mean like Brexit supporter Nigel Lawson who has applied for a French residence permit to continue living in his house in France.

        No. I mean the like of Mogg which own major stakes in investment funds and other vehicles which have invested heavily in office properties and the office real estate boom in Dublin, Sofia, Bucharest, Plovdiv and elsewhere in (mostly Eastern) Europe. Billions are being made by servicing the financial rats jumping the sinking ship HMS City of London.

        Compared to them Nigel Lawson and his French residence permit is a minor joke.

    2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "Nothing like a disaster to line the pockets of those with the sense to see it coming."

      Especially if you advocated it in the first place, with a pretty good idea of what would happen.

      If this were actions aimed against the nation they would be called traitors.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

      "I've emptied my immersion heater and disabled all the hot water taps so I could fill the system with Lambrusco Bianco."

      Why on earth would you do that when you could have used a passable red and added some cinnamon, star anise, cloves, lemon zest and sugar and had mulled wine on tap?

      1. Rol Silver badge

        Re: It'll be like decimalisation all over again, but spelt decimation due to a shortage of letters.

        "Why on earth would you do that when you could have used a passable red and added some cinnamon, star anise, cloves, lemon zest and sugar and had mulled wine on tap?"

        Pandering to my potential customers tastes. I myself will be quaffing the usual Bushmills, which wouldn't be best suited to a Whiskey Galore storage option.

  14. Seven_Spades

    Whilst some here will agree the Brexit and some do not, what I do not understand is why some people seem to think that it is right to punish the UK. The UK like any other nation is free to chose to self determination. Being a member of the EU has benefits and also has costs associated with those benefits.

    The EU's action in seeking to "Punish" the UK is wholly unjustified. They should respect the decision of the people and move forward with sensible trade agreement. The UK is not asking for favours just respect. If the EU wants to impose tariffs in the UK, then the UK should reciprocate, however I think that it is probably in both entities interests to agree a free trade agreement.

    With regards to Galileo it is clear that the EU wishes to punish the UK and does not wish to reach a sensibe agreement even if it is in the EU's interest to do so.

    1. A.P. Veening

      Galileo punishment

      "With regards to Galileo it is clear that the EU wishes to punish the UK and does not wish to reach a sensibe agreement even if it is in the EU's interest to do so."

      There is no desire for punishment, this is just a case of the UK applying a gun to its own foot.

      Very simple explanation: Galileo is a sort of club. One of the rules of the club, agreed to by all members and first proposed by the UK is that non-members don't have access. Now one of the members (UK) is cancelling its membership. Sorry to see you go, but your choice. By the way, do you still remember that rule about non-members not having access? Sorry to say, but it will also apply to you.

      Most of the rest of the actions you see as punishment are the logical consequences of similar rules and situations. Either reverse the decision to leave or deal with the consequences, your choice.

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: Galileo punishment

        And the general point. The EU 27 are not doing any punishing. They are just keeping to their rules. It's the European Union. .

        If you leave the gym club you can't still keep your stuff in the lockers.

        1. adam 40
          Thumb Up

          Leaving the Gym Club

          That is a fantastic analogy too - have you ever tried to leave a Gym?

          Brexit is just the same - when will we get to cancel the direct debit (it seems not until Dec 2020 at the earliest at this rate)????

    2. Killing Time

      It is a fact of life that in any negotiation there will always be a stronger and a weaker party.

      If both parties were equal then there would be no requirement for negotiation as both parties can just walk away on an equal footing.

      Sadly in the majority of cases, upon failing to get exactly what they want, the weaker party generally resorts to claiming victimisation with suggestions of punishment, bullying, arrogance or calls for respect from the other party. It really is a last ditch strategy, an emotional response that means nothing in the real world. The fact that it is regularly called by the Brexiteers is just a reflection of how strategically clueless they are.

      Reality is hard, the gap between what you want and what you get is wide, no amount of name calling will change that.

      Negotiation relies on some form of leverage. When you haven't got anything the other party wants, which it can’t easily replace elsewhere, you are screwed.

      We have three choices -

      a. We accept the deal May is given.

      b. We stop the process, try to salvage our dignity and resume trying to democratically influence the EU more towards the UK’s point of view.

      c. We walk away, take the huge hit, stop whining like babies, and spend the next few decades being the bitch of multiple trading blocs while we try to set up favourable deals with them.

      That is the way we can exercise our right to self determination….

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. JLV Silver badge

        >b. We stop the process, try to salvage our dignity and resume trying to democratically influence the EU more towards the UK’s point of view.

        As much as I am pretty relaxed about immigration myself, not everyone is. It bears remembering that, when Greece, Portugal, Spain joined the EU, in 1982, there was a 10 year moratorium on allowing full free immigration into/from those 3 countries.

        In hindsight, it would have been more sensible for the EU to apply the same kind of transition period to Eastern European countries. Or indeed any new member with a sufficiently big GDP difference.

        Didn’t happen. Brexit was a bait and switch but the EUs bureaucracy will need to reassess its our way or the highway attitude towards its _member_ states. The ratification referendums for the constitution being another clusterf***. Ditto the pointless insistence on metric system precedence. Or curly bananas.

        Subsidiarity was a very useful UK-sourced principle, IMHO.

        None of this really makes Brexit any less of a self goal 8-/

        1. Adair

          It's worth remembering who was a strong advocate for allowing eastern European nations into the EU. Yes, our dear old UK.

          Funny old world, and every nation gets its own moment under the spotlight with its pants around its ankles.

          1. JLV Silver badge

            don’t misunderstand me on this. letting in Eastern Europe was the right thing to do. 100% and if anything, Putin’s nastiness only reinforces that. For them, but also for the previous EU core.

            i’m not even sure a 10 yr freedom of people movement moratorium would have been good. But it was a policy decision at the time and it did allow those 3 countries to build up their economies gradually, dialing down the motivation to seek better opportunities elsewhere in the EU once full liberalization was reached.

            The EU is a great club, but, when reasonable, it needs to be more sensitive about national preferences and perception. Subsidiarity being key here.

            Pressuring the Piss folk in Poland and Viktor Orban not to become lil Trumps against human rights? Good. Need more of that. Setting banana curvature? Bureaucracy gone amok and recruiting poster for big Borises. Getting Italy back in line on their budget, to avoid another Greek bailout? Much, much, needed because the risks outweigh national prerogatives.

            As to Galileo, purely on military self-interest, the EU should have found a way to keep the most capable European army integrated. The rest of Brexit negotiations however? Well, they’ve got the leverage and very little incentive to cut a sweetheart deal encouraging future xxxexit movements. They got you by the balls.

            Too bad the Borises and Ress-Moggs didn’t see that coming or just managed to pull wool over the eyes of the more clever Leave voters. Yes, they exist, and Remains need to gently convince that constituency to reconsider in light of all the hollow promises.

            btw One brilliant thing the Federal government here did, late 90s, fought tooth and nail by the Quebec separatists, was to force future leave referendums to have a clear Leave or Stay question. They can’t just fudge something harmless sounding. Wasn’t the issue with the actual Brexit vote wording, but it sure was with previous Quebec referendums.

        2. Terry 6 Silver badge

          Another myth, I'm afraid. We already have the right to send EU citizens home if they don't meet residence requirements. We chose not to apply these rules.Because these EU citizens pay far more into the economy that they get out. These are all published facts and figures.

        3. Cavehomme_ Bronze badge

          10 year moratorium?

          Yes, there WAS one agreed for Poland’s and Baltic States entry which Germany and other countries kept to but for which a certain country negotiated yet another get out clause; guess who?!

          Yep, Britain!

          We invited them in straight away! Ireland too. It was good for business, remember?! Sod the other impacts.

          We’ve had so many get out clauses, we’ve done excellently out of the EU, now we’re throwing it all away.

          Collective insanity.

      3. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Beautiful summarisation.

    3. Paul Stimpson

      There is no "punishment" being handed out here. If you join a club, that membership comes with costs and benefits you receive in return for your membership fee. If you decide to cease being a member, you stop paying those costs and you cease receiving the benefits. Would you complain you were being punished if you decided to cancel your gym membership and they wouldn't let you continue to use their Jacuzzi? If you stopped paying for health insurance after years and thousands of pounds of membership, would you consider it unfair or disrespectful they wouldn't give you treatment if you got sick after you left?

      We were instrumental in writing the Galileo rules. We knew they contained a provision that non-EU members can't have military-grade access to or perform work on the service. When we triggered Article 50, it was entirely predictable that we would lose access to the system as non-members. Those of us who repeated pointed things such as this out were howled down as "Project Fear" or "unpatriotic."

      This whole "punishment" argument makes me quite angry. Vocal parts of the Brexit movement told the people that we were so special that the EU would bend over to give us a wonderful deal when the EU, quite honestly, said from day one that no non-member deal could ever be as good as a member deal. I have had to close the business I spent 25 years nurturing because I can't get anyone to sign contracts for performing work on the continent when I can't promise I will be able to fulfill them going forward and the customers were looking for long term business relationships. The orders dried up as soon as the referendum result was announced. I am angry that those who convinced the people that a better deal would be available are now using talk of "punishment" to try to avoid responsibility by effectively saying, "It's the EU's fault they won't give you what we said you could have. Not ours."

      Business moves cost money and take time. Big businesses, unable to get the certainty they wanted that they weren't going to be hugely impacted by Brexit, have already started moving jobs and the money that goes with them abroad. It's the sensible course of action for any large company faced with a significant business threat. They need to make moving decisions in time to get the move done before the threat materializes. Because of the time and money moves cost, once those jobs are gone, they're not coming back.

      1. Mark 65 Silver badge

        There is no "punishment" being handed out here.

        Wow, just wow. Are you really so short-sighted, so blinkered, so naive as to not realise this is the EU sending a very strong message to the likes of Italy and any other country that thinks they can sway matters with talk of doing their own little side-stage exit if they don't get their own way?

        It was always going to be this way. If Brexit resulted in a sweet deal for the UK then other countries would have a viable fall-back option should they not want to play ball, which would result in a clear lack of cohesion within the block. You simply have to make leaving the block appear unpalatable, anything else is suicidal.

    4. Cavehomme_ Bronze badge

      Ah, yet another Cakeist!

    5. strum Silver badge

      >The EU's action in seeking to "Punish" the UK...

      ...is entirely mythical. There hasn't been any interest in 'punishing the UK' - that's Daily Mail talk.

      They've driven a tough bargain, sure - but why wouldn't they?

    6. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Trollface

      "what I do not understand is why some people seem to think that it is right to punish the UK"

      Because you are

      a) A troll?

      b) A delusional f**kwit?

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Whilst some here will agree the Brexit and some do not, what I do not understand is why some people seem to think that it is right to punish the UK. "

      Watching from a safe distance (neither UK nor EU) I don't see any 'punishment'.

      The UK is being treated like exactly what it claims it wants to be - a non-member, free of obligation or entanglement, carving its own path to destiny in the global economy.

      Of course, leave advocates promised you could do that while keeping all the benefits of EU membership.

      And British politicians of all parties kept promising one thing to the EU and the exact opposite to the British public - like somehow they thought EU citizens couldn't understand their speeches and press releases. That doubtless cost a lot of credibility and good will. When you prove you can't be trusted, even before a deal is struck, you shouldn't be surprised when the other party is cautious about special privileges.

      And as others noted, a lot of the rules biting the UK now were their own idea.

      A lot of people are tired of listening to Leavers whining about how mean the EU is being to them... pretty much anyone I know is.

      The best, of course, was the British MP condemning the deal for leaving the EU because it didn't give the UK any MEPs. People would find this hard to accept for a character in a black comedy about victims of brain sucking aliens, let alone someone in a position to influence a country's future.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What scenario?

    Can anyone please enlighten me about what scenario would make the EU and US deny the UK access to the military signal?

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: What scenario?

      Who said anything about the EU or US denying the UK access, in line with the "taking back control" the UK can't have a third-party supply it with military signal... So it will be the hard Brexiteers complaining that the EU/US are punishing the UK by not allowing the UK to provide the military signal to them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What scenario?

        >Who said anything about the EU or US denying the UK access, in line with the "taking back control" the UK can't have a third-party supply it with military signal

        As long as the UK has access to the GPS military signal it will be about as good as the Galileo military signal. So if losing access to Galileo military signal is a problem it implies the UK cannot use the GPS military signal either.

        Hence the question.

    3. Cavehomme_ Bronze badge

      Re: What scenario?

      When Corbyn becomes PM?!

    4. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: What scenario?

      The UK wants access to Galileo to patrol Gibraltar - Spain says no,

      The Eu/UK send a peacekeeping mission to Gaza - the US blocks GPS

      Britain does another "Falklands" with which ever bit of the empire is left. A US senator has a large immigrant minority from the invaders in their constituency and says no GPS

      Remember in 1982 when the UK was a fairly major NATO ally against the USSR - the USA wasn't exactly on board with Britain attacking one of their staunchly anti-communist dictators in S America. Now when the US president has more important links with Saudi Arabia and Russia than with the UK, how accommodating will they be?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What scenario?

        >The UK wants access to Galileo to patrol Gibraltar - Spain says no,

        So what? There is still military GPS and DGPS.

        >The Eu/UK send a peacekeeping mission to Gaza - the US blocks GPS

        Again: so what? There is still military GPS and DGPS. And why should the US block GPS?

        >Britain does another "Falklands" with which ever bit of the empire is left. A US senator has a large immigrant minority from the invaders in their constituency and says no GPS

        One US senator against one of the few reliable allies the US has in the world. Hard choice?

        >Remember in 1982 when the UK was a fairly major NATO ally against the USSR - the USA wasn't exactly on board with Britain attacking one of their staunchly anti-communist dictators in S America. Now when the US president has more important links with Saudi Arabia and Russia than with the UK, how accommodating will they be?

        I know it is popular to consider Americans stupid in general and the president in particular. Do you also think they would go as far as alienating what is practically their only real ally? I do not.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What scenario?

          "I know it is popular to consider Americans stupid in general and the president in particular. Do you also think they would go as far as alienating what is practically their only real ally? I do not."

          During the Falklands crisis, there was a big fight in the US State department between the South American crowd who considered that continent more important to US interests, and wanted to back Argentina, and the Atlanticist crew who maintained Britain and NATO were more important.

          Eventually the second faction won, but it could have gone either way. If it had gone the other way, chances are the British attempt to regain the Falklands would have failed. Details are too lengthy to get into here, but if you want a good account of both the diplomatic and military aspects, dig up a copy of The Battle for the Falklands, by Max Hastings and Simon Jenkins.

          Not all of the Americans - even the politicians and diplomats - put the UK ahead of other considerations, and any support depends on their internal politics first and foremost. Thinking otherwise is a dangerous delusion.

  16. All names Taken
    Holmes

    A dash of realism?

    Parliament is really all about collecting and spending revenues. It really should not be a shock that some spending was a bit wasteful. It is something that happens in every household.

    A major difference is that in every household some persons are accountable for it - at all if not most levels of accountability. The shame about UK system is that those people are not held accountable and that really is a shocker?

  17. #define INFINITY -1 Bronze badge

    "lousy t-shirt"

    "I can't believe it's not butter" I'll sing as I'm flogged?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "lousy t-shirt"

      "I can't believe it's not butter"

      There will be chlorinated chicken and growth-hormone beef. Our own farmers will be offered small subsidies to keep the countryside looking suitably theme park bucolic for US tourists. Villages will have their ragged barefoot urchins and smocked farmhands available for selfies.

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: "lousy t-shirt"

        The middle classes ( mostly Remainers) will be buying organic chickens, guaranteed no chlorine etc. from Waitrose. And Organic veg for the vegetarians

        The poorer folk, more likely to be Leavers, will be eating rats' hairs (to the permitted maximum number per portion ) and chlorinated chickens.

        'Twas ever thus.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "lousy t-shirt"

          'will be eating rats' hairs (to the permitted maximum number per portion)'

          Somebody else was watching the Mash Report last night.

          1. Terry 6 Silver badge

            Re: "lousy t-shirt"

            I already knew. Twitter, but verified from quoted regulation documents. (Or was it quoted in the Grauniad? Can't remember. It was weeks ago. Mash Report a bit slow to catch that one)

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "lousy t-shirt"

            'will be eating rats' hairs (to the permitted maximum number per portion)'

            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Realistically, it is almost impossible, as well as very inefficient, to try to keep all rat hairs, mouse droppings, insect parts, and similar materials out of the food chain.

            A small amount of this is of no import, particularly if you are cooking whatever it is to a temperature that will kill bacteria.

            Better to be honest, and set reasonable levels for such things.

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          The poorer folk, more likely to be Leavers, will be eating rats' hairs... chlorinated chickens.

          Thus teaching possibly the most valuable lesson of all.

          "Never trust a Tory posh boy."

          They say "Experience is a hard task master, but some people won't learn any other way."

          True that.

          Bon appetit to your pullet chlorine mon amis.

      2. Mephistro Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: "lousy t-shirt"

        "I can't believe it's not butter"

        And the most sold book will be "1001 Recipes with leather shoes", and the second one will be "How to build your own narco-sub, for dummies".

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "lousy t-shirt"

        There will be chlorinated chicken and growth-hormone beef.

        There already is. Plenty of it. You are just not reading the news carefully.

        1. Chlorinated chicken and hormone beef are allowed in a number of countries from ex-USSR.

        2. They are shipped via 3 Eu countries(*) where embargo-busting is a major GDP contributor on par with the way it was in Bulgaria during the Yugo conflict. They collectively imported 260M worth of Eu fruit and other foodstuffs last year and exported 260M of "African" fruit, wine and foodstuffs(**). African pears and Camembert. Bwahahaha... They laundered 100Bn worth of money laundry fund transfers in last year alone.

        3... 4... 5... 6...

        So, back to the chlorinated chicken. As of beginning of November all permits for shipping Chlorinated Chicken and Hormone Beef across Russia to Kazahstan, Uzbekistan, etc have been withdrawn. Bonus question - where is all the Chlorinated chicken which was supposed to go there. IT IS NOT IN THE COUNTRIES IN QUESTION - they do not have the storage capacity and they specialize in falsifying documents on goods. I would suggest you carefully examine what you are eating, especially if it is ready made food... It is not the first time too - it is a recurring event.

        (*)The economies of these countries get close to 25% of their GDP from sanctions busting, embargo avoidance and money laundry. Key figures in their politics are involved too - up to relevant ministers and families of the president(s). They are as addicted to this as Bulgaria was in the 90-es (it took a decade to clear the grey economy there).

        (**)Data published by one of Belgian broadsheets 2 weeks ago

  18. Trollslayer Silver badge
    Flame

    UK contributions

    How much has the UK paid to prop up Grexit, bribing Eastern European countries - sorry subsidising - to join the EU?

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: UK contributions

      @ Trollslayer

      Not forgetting the signed agreement Cameron was proud of that our contribution would not be used to bail out Greece. And of course it then was.

    2. Cavehomme_ Bronze badge

      Re: UK contributions

      The idea was that it’s better to reach out help bring the destitute former Communist countries up to a much higher standard, rather than left them fester in misery.

      Meanwhile doing that was a pretty good insurance policy to avoid another destructive war in Europe since we’re all in the EU club.

      The cost of mutual help is far less than fighting wars and rebuilding from them, that’s just in economic terms, but what about the human benefits.

      Unfortunately sociopathic Brexteers can’t fathom this apparently.

      1. Killing Time

        Re: UK contributions

        Not to mention them being a willing market for our products and services. Take a look around Greece and it's islands. Every other vehicle is from a German manufacturer. The Greek bailout didn't come without conditions.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: UK contributions

        >The idea was that it’s better to reach out help bring the destitute former Communist countries up to a much higher standard, rather than left them fester in misery.

        So not to move NATO to the Russian border ?

      3. ITfarmer

        Re: UK contributions

        I see it was to help stop another destructive war in Europe ?

        Hmmm.

        So what happened when the EU funded the Ukrainian war then ?

        5 Billion Euros given to party not elected in Ukraine .. which then caused a civil war .. with the only Russian naval base in the Mediterranian .. Russia being the second most powerful Nuclear Super Power.

        I applaud your moronic attitude .. how about getting a reality check. I don't an EU funded war with Russua.

        Never mind the hypocrasy of Germany giving Russia money whilst getting military support and financial support from the USA and the rest of Europe .. against Russia.

        What would you call a mutliple layer of Morons ? Schizo morons ?

        1. JLV Silver badge

          Re: UK contributions

          Georgia, Moldavia, Chechnya, Ukraine, Estonia cyberattacks. Gay rights snafus. Dead Russian opposition politicians. bogus elections. MH 217. Magnetsky.

          All funded by the EU.

          Do go on, Herr Putain.

          one thing I grant you, NATO-near-border is way too provocative, except for Baltics. But actually probably suits Vlad just right, more enemies abroad to sell.

  19. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
    IT Angle

    The whole

    brexit thing has been a clusterfuck of unimaginable proportions.

    Take migration... (actually migration problems are really caused by westminister doing things such as not bothering to check how many people are coming here vs the expansion in services/housing to cope...BOTH parties are equally as guilty of this as the other.)

    What should have been said is "EU nationals working here pre-brexit have an unlimited time to remain here, post brexit, EU nationals get the same rights as the rest of the world"

    If the EU wanted to play silly buggers around that, we restate the 1st phrase

    Sadly the 'government' (read 300 cats in a sack) decided to do things differently, then have a leadership election.... then an actual election (needing the support of some northern irish throwbacks.. when will they realise its not 1689 anymore!!) hence we're in clusterfuck.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Coat

      "brexit thing has been a clusterfuck of unimaginable proportions."

      Wrong tense, Boris.

      This is just the preamble. It hasn't happened yet.

      "brexit thing will be a clusterfuck of unimaginable proportions."

      FTFY.

      By which time I expect even the hard line brexiteers will be posting AC.

      1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge
        Flame

        Re: "brexit thing has been a clusterfuck of unimaginable proportions."

        Has been, will be, and currently is.

  20. Poncey McPonceface

    UK joining Indonesia and Brasil?

    I like tables so I put together this handy guide to satellite navigation in the top 10 economies of the world.

    country global nss regional nss gdp 2017 (ppp) share %

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1 China BeiDou-2 (2020) BeiDou-1 23159.107 18.2

    2 U.S. GPS 19390.6 15.3

    3 India NAVIC 9459.002 7.45

    4 Japan QZSS 5428.813 4.27

    5 Germany Galileo (2020) 4170.79 3.28

    6 Russia GLONASS 4007.831 3.15

    7 Indonesia 3242.771 2.55

    8 Brazil 3240.319 2.55

    9 U.K. #Brexit ? 2914.042 2.29

    10 France Galileo (2020) DORIS 2835.746 2.23

  21. Wolfclaw Silver badge

    Simple answer, no access, take £1Bn out of the devource payment, what is the EU going to do ?

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      >Simple answer, no access, take £1Bn out of the devource payment, what is the EU going to do ?

      Ban all British companies for bidding for future Eu work with security implications (allowed under WTO).

      1. ITfarmer

        Not it isn't allowed under WTO rules at all.

        Any movement on trade or tariffs or punitive action .. such as banning companies has massive consequences.

        A "Divorce Deal", especially one where no payment is legally required, is NOT covered in WTO rules.

        1. Tom 7 Silver badge

          Re: Not it isn't allowed under WTO rules at all.

          So? It will be at least 8 years before we are a member of the WTO and legally covered by those rules - according to the WTO, That is assuming we are allowed to join - the US wants us to sell them the NHS on the cheap before they give their agreement and Argentina is looking at some islands just off their coast...

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Not it isn't allowed under WTO rules at all.

            And then that trade deal with the EU: Spain will have the opportunity to veto it, if they don't get what they want over Gibraltar, Greece likewise will naturally request the Elgin Marbles or veto it...

            Expect the UK to get a good kicking in the coming years, all because the UK decided to open Pandora's box...

          2. EvilDrSmith

            Re: Not it isn't allowed under WTO rules at all.

            Tom,

            The UK already is a member of the World Trade Organisation.

            https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/united_kingdom_e.htm

            We are already covered by WTO rules (as is the EU) and hence we already trade in accordance with WTO rules, either in accordance with trade agreements negotiated by the EU, or under the normal 'most favoured nation status' for nations with which we have no deal.

            If we revert to trading with the EU under WTO rules (the 'No deal' option) no doubt there will be some issues that need to be sorted out, but we will nevertheless be legally covered by the WTO rules.

            Additionally, a number of the nations with trade deals with the EU have already stated publically that, for their part, they intend those trade deals to be rolled forward such that they continue to apply to the UK once outside the EU.

            1. Richard 12 Silver badge

              Re: Not it isn't allowed under WTO rules at all.

              We're not a WTO member. We have associate membership as part of our EU membership.

              We will need to negotiate with the WTO to join in our own right and hope to transfer our existing quotas etc from the EU membership umbrella out into our own rain.

              This should be relatively easy, so will probably only take two to three years.

              1. EvilDrSmith

                Re: Not it isn't allowed under WTO rules at all.

                Richard 12,

                From the WTO page on the UK:

                "This page gathers information on the United Kingdom's participation in the WTO. The United Kingdom has been a WTO member since 1 January 1995 and a member of GATT since 1 January 1948. It is a member State of the European Union (more info). All EU member States are WTO members, as is the EU (until 30 November 2009 known officially in the WTO as the European Communities for legal reasons) in its own right"

                No mention of associate membership there.

                And later, in discussing groups of countries:

                "The largest and most comprehensive group is the European Union and its 28 member states. The EU is a customs union with a single external trade policy and tariff. While the member states coordinate their position in Brussels and Geneva, the European Commission alone speaks for the EU at almost all WTO meetings. The EU is a WTO member in its own right as are each of its member states."

                So the WTO clearly thinks that the UK is (already) a member in our own right.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Not it isn't allowed under WTO rules at all.

              The UK already is a member of the World Trade Organisation.

              https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/united_kingdom_e.htm

              We are already covered by WTO rules (as is the EU) and hence we already trade in accordance with WTO rules, either in accordance with trade agreements negotiated by the EU, or under the normal 'most favoured nation status' for nations with which we have no deal.

              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Not exactly. You are part of the WTO as part of the EU.

              When you leave the EU, you will no longer be part of the WTO.

              The UK has attempted to fast-track re-entry to the WTO, which can only happen if no WTO members object.

              At this point about 20 WTO members have objected to fast-tracking, including the United States, Australia, and New Zealand (all Leaver targets for fast, easy, profitable trade deals).

              Welcome to reality.

              1. EvilDrSmith

                Re: Not it isn't allowed under WTO rules at all.

                Sorry, which part of the WTO's own statement that:

                "The EU is a WTO member in its own right as are each of its member states."

                leads you to think that the UK is not a member of the WTO in it's own right?

                I like reality, it has less Zombies in it than the worlds that some pro-remain people seem to inhabit.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Not it isn't allowed under WTO rules at all.

                  Sorry, which part of the WTO's own statement that:

                  "The EU is a WTO member in its own right as are each of its member states."

                  leads you to think that the UK is not a member of the WTO in it's own right?

                  I like reality, it has less Zombies in it than the worlds that some pro-remain people seem to inhabit.

                  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  I think you may be having trouble parsing this.

                  The EU is a member in its own right - recognized as a member.

                  The EU member states are members and recognized as such.

                  The UK will remain a member until 2300 on March 29 2019 with all the WTO rights and privileges that go with that status. The fact that some of those cannot be exercised due to EU rules has nothing to do with the WTO.

                  At that point, the UK will no longer be a member of the WTO as an EU member state. While technically a member of the WTO, it is no longer party to tariff and quota deals via the EU, and its membership needs a new document setting out UK tariff and quota rules. That document can only be quickly finalized with universal WTO member agreement. Twenty countries have objected so far, because of the detriments of trading with the UK out of the EU context, which is not as advantageous as having a quota that can be freely redirected among 28 countries.

                  One also suspects that the current trading partners see a chance to renegotiate for more advantageous terms with a less powerful and desirable UK market. Furthermore, any changes that affect EU quotas will in essence be three way deals involving the UK, another WTO member, and the EU. That should be fun, in and of itself.

                  Among the countries raising concerns were Moldova, the US, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, Ukraine, Canada, Australia and Israel. One should note that one of the issues was faster and better access to visas. And we already know that India wants improved immigration access to the UK. Have fun taking control, guys.

                  If you want more data, try searching 'uk fast track wto membership objections'.

                  1. EvilDrSmith

                    Re: Not it isn't allowed under WTO rules at all.

                    No problem at all with the grammar.

                    The UK is a member of WTO

                    On leaving the EU, we are still a member of WTO.

                    We then find ourselves without agreed schedules, so need to submit these for WTO approval, as per the WTO rules. These will be reviewed in accordance with the rules of the WTO. Other countries may object, but fortunately, WTO is a rules based organisation, so the objections have to be based on something other than an attempt to gain an unfair advantage.

                    What you forget to mention is that proposed fast track schedules for the UK are also accompanied by the EU attempting to reduce the quantities listed under their schedule - the proposal is that the current EU schedules are divided between UK and EU (that's already agreed between UK and EU).

                    If you are correct that this somehow renders the UK not party to WTO, then the same logic means the EU is also no longer party to the WTO.

                    It's also a lot more likely that the UK will simply agree to up the quantities permitted under the UK schedules, thus immediately addressing the concerns raised by third party countries, than it is that the EU will agree to keep the quantities listed in its schedule unchanged following the UK departure.

    2. Paul Stimpson

      "Simple answer, no access, take £1Bn out of the devource payment, what is the EU going to do ?"

      Then countries all round the world will see we don't stick to our end of the bargain when we make an agreement and no longer consider us a good-faith negotiating partner. Just what we need when we're trying to negotiate trade deals for "Global Britain."

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Add screw our credit rating, massively increase the cost of our international borrowing and lose any goodwill and trust from any trading negotiations for decades to come.

        But hey. Blue passports (in our long non-EU queue when we go to Majorca or Ibizia for our two weeks of sun).

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Add screw our credit rating, massively increase the cost of our international borrowing and lose any goodwill and trust from any trading negotiations for decades to come.

          Wouldn't affect credit rating at all. This isn't a retail banking operation whereby your credit score on Experian is marked down FFS.

          As for a long non-EU queue when we go to Majorca etc for our two weeks of sun - there's plenty of sunny places on the planet and a bit of exploring will show you that the Med is a bit of a shit-hole really.

          1. Terry 6 Silver badge

            You don't even know that nations have international credit ratings, from A++ down. Which has a dramatic effect on the cost of govt. borrowing. And you are making claims about Brexit?

    3. strum Silver badge

      >what is the EU going to do

      Perhaps point out that UK is a welcher - not a good look as we try to re-negotiate 700 trade deals.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Correctly classify the UK as a bunch of cheats who don't pay their debts and can't be trusted.

      Further consequences will follow from that.

  22. Duffy Moon

    I shouldn't worry

    Given that this deal isn't going to get through a Commons vote,the EU won't negotiate another deal and MPs have said they won't leave without a deal, I think there's a good chance the madness will come to an abrupt end. Normal chaos will be resumed.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      " I think there's a good chance the madness will come to an abrupt end. "

      You wish.

      If the Conservative party is viewed as the cause of this chaos (as in fact it was) this might make them unelectable for a generation.

      I think that's about the best anyone can hope for at this stage.

      1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

        Re: " I think there's a good chance the madness will come to an abrupt end. "

        Conservative party is viewed as the cause of this chaos (as in fact it was) this might make them unelectable

        And my private opinion is that quite a few moderate Conservatives and Labour types will end up either forming a new centrist party or joining the Lib Dems.

  23. Cliff Thorburn

    The truth as always is stranger than fiction, perhaps the next PM could strapline -

    MEGA!

    Make England Great Again!

    1. heyrick Silver badge

      Make England Great Again!

      And Wales? And Scotland? And Northern Ireland? Two of which, I should add, democratically voted to stay IN the EU.

      Britain is more than just England, FFS.

  24. technoise

    PRS access

    PRS access - the high precision encrypted channel, which is presumably what the angst is all about, is apparently under consideration for the US and Norway, and the EU has apparently made provisions for non EU nations to be permitted access,

    https://spacenews.com/u-s-norwegian-paths-to-encrypted-galileo-service-open-in-2016/

    http://insidegnss.com/delay-continues-for-effort-to-add-galileo-signal-to-u-s-military-receivers/

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: PRS access

      Norway is needed for Galileo to work at high latitudes - its only technical advantage over GPS.

      If Norway takes its ball (or its ground stations) and goes home - Galileo's military signal doesn't work for that bit of the world where all the Russian boats and planes come from.

      The UK doesn't have quite the same bargaining power

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: PRS access

        re: Norway

        However, Norway's role is to host facilities.

        Likewise other non-EU states have access (to PRS signals)

        The UK is wanting to not only have access - solvable, but also continue being an insider on the development of the PRS service ie. Norway, USA get to use the blackbox, the UK wants to build the blackbox and thus be privy to all its inner-workings.

  25. doug_bostrom

    "Sir William Cash piled in, suggesting that the UK could simply knock the Galileo £1bn off the eventual divorce bill."

    Yes, and next time we change our minds in the middle of remodeling our home and want the old look back, we'll complain bitterly when it turns out we're still on the hook for commitments made to contractors, and them even spitefully refusing to put it all back together for free.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Coat

      ""Sir William Cash piled in, suggesting that the UK could simply knock the Galileo £1bn off"

      We don't call him "Dirty" for nothing.

      Money talks.

  26. Dacarlo
    Boffin

    Plans within plans?

    Could it be Maybot knows that parliament will vote the evil plan down and force a peoples vote?

    1. Teiwaz Silver badge

      Re: Plans within plans?

      Could it be Maybot knows that parliament will vote the evil plan down and force a peoples vote?

      What? Have you forgotten she fought tooth and nail to keep even Parliament out of any further say from just after taking top office after the referendum?

      I think she believes she's another Thatcher. If Parliament reject it, she's most likely finished.

      The UK is not the likes of Switzerland or Ireland, such plebiscites are few and far between in the Uk. Which goes a long way to explain how badly handled the last one was.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Plans within plans?

      Could it be Maybot knows that parliament will vote the evil plan down and force a peoples vote?

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Or the deal will be voted down, someone will go to the EU and discover to their surprise that the only changes will be EU countries getting more of their wish list because they feel that the UK got away with too much, and, if they can, then passing the EU approved deal.

      Various EU countries aren't really any happier than the assorted UK factions... they are just better at being willing to compromise to see if a deal can be reached... but I think they have been pushed as far as they can be and they are tired of making concessions.

  27. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

    Totally worth it.

  28. Cynical Pie

    Ahhhh but Blue Passports and all that...

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What a bunch of whiny spineless remoaners

    I've learned a lot about remoaners, they appear to have no back bone, are afraid of not being 'in a group', maybe because that way they feel safe, are quite OK being *ucked up the a**, as long as they can still be in the club. Either that or the EU is a nice little earner for them & fuck everybody else.

    For fuck sake, have a bit of respect for yourself.

    Being a remoaner appears to be much like voting labour, those that do vote labour make a load of noise about it, while those that don't vote labour say nothing.. And guess what, to the surprise of labour voters the conservatives got in.

    1. confused and dazed

      Re: What a bunch of whiny spineless remoaners

      "remoaner" - I see what you did there .... very clever ... ho ho

    2. Roo
      Windows

      Re: What a bunch of whiny spineless remoaners

      "I've learned a lot about remoaners"

      There is no such thing as a remoaner, you have learnt nothing beyond parroting claptrap and primary school level abuse of folks who pay the bills.

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "I've learned a lot about remoaners, they appear to have no back bone, "

      Says the gutless Ahole who can't put their name on a post.

      Grown up talking.

      Run along and play with the other kiddies till you can learn to think for yourself.

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    no EU GPS?

    then we won't be allowed to work with EU forces, and that'll be a mirror of the way NATO works.

  31. SNAFUology
    Meh

    Divorce problems

    Neither party admits to having the clap or giving it to the other, and both want the dog, even though they only ever walked it the first time when they got it, then both were too busy and got their neighbor to do it, although it did cost them a lot to purchase.

    Seems the UK-EU prenups weren't in place or sufficient to sort this out post divorce. {sigh}

    Know for next time then, hmm.

  32. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Happy

    They say you learn nothing good reading comments on the BBC News website

    But I just learned a new word.

    "Kwitter"

    That sounds an admirable description of the people who want Brexit.

    They want to give up on the EU and they want to tell you about it. A lot.

    Kwitter sounds about right for most of them.

  33. jelabarre59 Silver badge

    Send the bill

    So if the EU wants to lock you out of the system, perhaps you should make them bay you back for all your investment into the system. Then turn around and make a deal with the US, using that money just to spite the EU.

  34. Paul 195
    FAIL

    Don't worry

    Brexit looks increasingly unlikely as there is no deal imaginable that will get through the house of commons, and none of the politicians saying that "no deal is better than a bad deal" actually have the balls to do it. They are quite keen on someone else doing it, but Boris and Gove would never do it. JRM might just, but he's a few nannies short of the full Norland's College to be honest.

  35. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Thumb Up

    "a few nannies short of the full Norland's College to be honest."

    Superb

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