back to article Microsoft: You don't want to use Edge? Are you sure? Really sure?

Microsoft really wants you to use Edge in the latest Windows Insider builds, and the software giant is not afraid to let you know it. Windows Insider Sean Hoffman took to Twitter last night to express his displeasure at a pop-up shown by Windows 10 when he attempted to install an alternative browser. When he ran the Firefox …

  1. }{amis}{ Silver badge
    Flame

    Dear Microsoft

    Please Bug off and take your POS browser with you.

    1. NBCanuck

      Re: Dear Microsoft

      Please BING off and take your POS browser with you.

      There.....FTFY.

    2. Lusty Silver badge

      Re: Dear Microsoft

      I don't think it's unreasonable in preview software for the vendor to expect you to fully test all features and ask you to use their programs. If this is in post release then we can rightly kick up some fuss and I'll be front of the queue.

      I know, not a popular viewpoint; downvote away.

      1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

        Re: Dear Microsoft

        Read the article and the links. This is not pitched as a preview feature, this is pitched as a shitty, intrusive and annoying feature for the next iteration.

        1. Lusty Silver badge

          Re: Dear Microsoft

          Read it yourself..."in the latest Windows Insider builds"

          1. Dave K Silver badge

            Re: Dear Microsoft

            If it were aimed purely at testing, Microsoft would have said so in the pop-up. Or are you trying to say that Insiders don't know what Edge is? If so, MS really is in trouble...

            1. katrinab Silver badge
              Trollface

              Re: Dear Microsoft

              Yes, Edge is the tool Microsoft provides for downloading the Firefox installer. Not as good as BSD Ports, but it does the job.

        2. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Dear Microsoft

          "a shitty, intrusive and annoying feature for the next iteration."

          like 'Clippy' ?

          /me plays oblitatory "It looks like you're writing a letter" salmon days BOFH video clip.

      2. Someone Else Silver badge

        @Lusty -- Re: Dear Microsoft

        I know, not a popular viewpoint; downvote away.

        Done.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Dear Microsoft

        > If this is in post release then we can rightly kick up some fuss and I'll be front of the queue.

        If nobody kicked up a fuss now, it would make it to release. And if such a feature makes it to release, the damage will already have been done before the decision can be reversed.

        If a law were proposed to empty the bank accounts of anyone calling themselves "Lusty", would you wait until it were made enforceable law before kicking up a fuss?

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Dear Microsoft

          "If nobody kicked up a fuss now, it would make it to release."

          If it makes it to release, I can see the EU sitting up and taking notice. They have to replenish their coffers once the UK stops paying it's membership dues.

      4. WylieCoyoteUK

        Re: Dear Microsoft

        Except I am not on the insider program, and it did that on server2016 when I installed Chrome months ago.

        It also does it if you install Adobe reader.

    3. GnuTzu Bronze badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Dear Microsoft -- You Did It To Yourself!!!

      You tried to co-opt the standards of the Internet by packaging your perversion of the standards in a browser built into the O.S--with the clear intent to addict both users and software developers to it--because you knew developers wouldn't pay attention to standards and API specifications and instead design to the bugs of your twisted f'd up product. Now you pay the price. Entire organizations have web applications that only work on that perverted browser and can't use Edge. Hah!!! Eat your own shit!

      Gawd it feels so incredibly good to say we told you so.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Dear Microsoft -- You Did It To Yourself!!!

        "Entire organizations have web applications that only work on that perverted browser and can't use Edge"

        Yes, and Microsoft is one of them. That said, there are a lot of wifi routers - commercial ones - which only work with IE for their login page. That's inexcusable, IE wasn't even still a thing when these devices were made!

        1. Pirate Dave
          Pirate

          Re: Dear Microsoft -- You Did It To Yourself!!!

          "IE wasn't even still a thing when these devices were made!"

          Not the devices, no. But when the original firmware was written, it was 2002 and Life Was Better With IE6. No need to patch code that's Known To Work, even 15 years later, right?

      2. TheVogon Silver badge

        Re: Dear Microsoft -- You Did It To Yourself!!!

        "Entire organizations have web applications that only work on that perverted browser and can't use Edge."

        Edge has a setting called 'Enterprise Mode" that automatically switches to IE on websites of choice so yes they can. It's one of the major reasons enterprises dont use say Chrome on Windows 10.

        1. Admiral Grace Hopper

          Re: Dear Microsoft -- You Did It To Yourself!!!

          "It's one of the major reasons enterprises dont use say Chrome on Windows 10."

          And yet we have IE-specific apps that won't run in Edge no matter what we do. After the last Win10 update came down the wire even IE would just sit there sullenly refusing to pick them up and run with them. The current workaround is an IE compatibility extension to Chrome.

          1. TheVogon Silver badge

            Re: Dear Microsoft -- You Did It To Yourself!!!

            "And yet we have IE-specific apps that won't run in Edge no matter what we do."

            See the comment above. Use Enterprise Mode to automatically launch them in IE.

            "After the last Win10 update came down the wire even IE would just sit there sullenly refusing to pick them up"

            So they used to work but now dont. Probably related to a security lockdown, which can generally be removed with the right policy setting. Suggest pressing F12 to enter dev mode, selecting the network tab, pressing the play button to start it analysing and then typing in the URL. That should show you where it's going wrong.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dear Microsoft

      Well Edge is certainly faster and less resource hungry than Chrome. But not more secure I think.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Dear Microsoft

        " less resource hungry "

        oh dear, another pleb who loves to have unused, wasted resources in his device.

        Me, I want it to use everything at it's disposal, as long as it can free it up at a moments notice, when something else needs it. I find Chrome pretty good at this.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Dear Microsoft

          >>oh dear, another pleb who loves to have unused, wasted resources in his device."

          Unfortunately Chrome also uses more resources when they are in short supply. You might have plenty of other reasons to use Chrome, but Edge is definately in general faster with lower resource use.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Microsoft is doubtless gauging reaction"

    ... and listening carefully for any screaming coming from the direction of the EU, I'm sure.

  3. JimmyPage Silver badge
    Stop

    Er ... weren't the 90s-noughties browser wars fought over this shit ?

    And MS lost ?

    Certainly for personal computing needs these days, MS really aren't in that strong a position. No one *needs* Windows that much. (Moribund workplaces don't count).

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Er ... weren't the 90s-noughties browser wars fought over this shit ?

      they lost? Yeah, they f... lost, sure. Only that it took 10 years, when the ruling came, and nobody gave a flying monkey f... (other than the lawyers).

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: Er ... weren't the 90s-noughties browser wars fought over this shit ?

        The browser choice dialog worked, when it was removed Firefox downloads dropped 63%.

        (Meanwhile, Google spammed Chrome at people with Search.)

        1. Corporate Scum

          Re: Er ... weren't the 90s-noughties browser wars fought over this shit ?

          Yes, and the wars never really ended.

          The picture of Google pushing chrome clearly illustrates that we have just traded one monopolist for another, and that Google also should receive the loving embrace of it's own consent decree.

          The browser choice dialog helped but it still failed, as it never leveled the playing field. It gave you a false choice between "Nothing but Microsoft's built in browser that can't be uninstalled" and "One of a small list of other browsers AND the one you don't want and can't get rid of, tough luck"

          M$ buried IE's code deep in the OS, and the US and EU both refused to make M$ remove it or place 3rd party browsers on remotely equal footing. They still aren't.

          Microsoft needs to get out of denial that they blew their shot with Edge at launch, along with Windows 8. They needed to fix it's basic usability and security issues, like allowing a single modal fave virus alert to jam the browser across system reboots. They didn't and as a result people hate it. They hate it enough to pay someone to reinstall their OS to windows 7. Trying to nag and trick people into switching back to it is going to fail hard, and in an embarrassingly public way.

          Now it's just like the war in Afghanistan. No amount of ignoring that it's lost can ever make you win.

    2. Jeffrey Nonken Silver badge

      Re: Er ... weren't the 90s-noughties browser wars fought over this shit ?

      "No one *needs* Windows that much. (Moribund workplaces don't count)."

      True. This development environment for the microprocessor I use? Pfft. Who needs it? I should just learn to hand-code in binary.

      Or just find a less suitable processor that has a Linux IDE. Because there are so many to choose from.

  4. ITS Retired
    Holmes

    More bloat in an already over bloated OS

    Microsoft need a legal lesson that our computers are not theirs to control and run as they see fit.

    Regardless of which operating system is installed, or how many.

    1. yossarianuk

      Re: More bloat in an already over bloated OS

      Secure boot make that hard....

      But running Linux is a better choice.

    2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: More bloat in an already over bloated OS

      didn't you get the memo?

      you know the one from MS that clearly stated that the OS is theirs and their EULA means that they can do whatever they want to it even if it is on your hardware. What they giveth they can taketh away.

      You will do what they allow and only what they allow or they'll take their OS and go home.

      /s /s /s

      Seriously, this is really taking the piss. SatNad and his crew in Redmond get more like BB each and every day.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: More bloat in an already over bloated OS

        "SatNad and his crew in Redmond get more like [Big Brother] each and every day"

        Like that graphic with Bill G. as Locutus of Borg. It's been happening for a while. SatNad is just the latest. I would say 'Borg Queen' but that has so many alternate implications I figured I'd leave that one alone... oops, too late.

        When i went to check on a security vulnerability yesterday, I had to load the MS link for the CVE in a separate security context and process incarnation of firefox that allows script AND cookies [and then dumps it all when I close it - ha ha]. Upon loading the MS link for the CVE report, which basically didn't tell me anything useful, I had to AGREE to their TOU for some @#$% reason...

        just how far are they gonna TAKE that #&%$ anyway?

      2. GnuTzu Bronze badge

        Re: More bloat in an already over bloated OS

        "You will do what they allow and only what they allow or they'll take their OS and go home."

        Sounds like Zappa's "I'm The Slime": https://genius.com/Frank-zappa-im-the-slime-lyrics

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: More bloat in an already over bloated OS

      Actually they are not yours, exactly. You own the OS license, not the OS itself. Microsoft owns the OS.

      1. JohnFen Silver badge

        Re: More bloat in an already over bloated OS

        Which means that you can't redistribute it. It in no way means that Microsoft gets to treat your machine as if they own it.

        1. rdhood

          Re: More bloat in an already over bloated OS

          "Which means that you can't redistribute it. It in no way means that Microsoft gets to treat your machine as if they own it."

          And that, folks, is the crux of all of this. Microsoft is planning on actively scanning everything you do on your system. In my paranoid world, it means that they probably already are

    4. aks Bronze badge

      Re: More bloat in an already over bloated OS

      Your computer, your choice of operating system.

      Their operating system, what's wrong with offering a one-time suggestion?

    5. phuzz Silver badge

      Re: More bloat in an already over bloated OS

      Microsoft need a legal lesson that our computers are not theirs to control and run as they see fit.

      No one is stopping you from installing another OS on your computer, you are in control of that.

      And if you have installed Windows, why are you complaining? You should have known what you're getting in to.

    6. Domquark

      Re: More bloat in an already over bloated OS

      "Microsoft need a legal lesson that our computers are not theirs to control and run as they see fit.

      Regardless of which operating system is installed, or how many."

      Good thing you aren't an iMac fan............

  5. James Anderson

    He should not worry. There is no way to change the default browser to anything but IE or edge. The option to choose another program seems to have accidentally disappeared. Even if you did manage to switch Edge will once again be the default after the next upgrade.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      All of this is an effort to gauge how much the frog complains about being boiled.

      If the frog complains too much that piece of code will be backed out otherwise it'll stay.

      It's not as if it hasn't happened before on Windows 10...

    2. GnuTzu Bronze badge

      "...no way to change the default browser to anything but IE or edge."

      Really?!?! isn't that going to be a problem in the EU?

      1. Pirate Dave
        Pirate

        "isn't that going to be a problem in the EU?"

        Probably, but not before Microsoft has made 3 times more money than they'll have to pay in fines. So it's still a Microsoft win, sadly.

  6. Tinslave_the_Barelegged Silver badge
    Linux

    Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

    Here are several sites which will resolve this problem for good:

    https://www.ubuntu.com/

    https://www,opensuse.org

    https://www.linuxmint.com

    etc...

    Really, why do people put up with this nonsense? It's just not necessary.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

      OK, I'll bite. Because they're not sitting in their bedroom with one PC, but instead have a fleet of > several thousand PCs that have to be usable by staff trained in, experienced with and productive in Windows, running software that only runs on Windows, intereacting with other companies that also use windows apps and file formats. Perhaps you're new to the IT world and El Reg in particular?

      1. Adrian 4 Silver badge

        Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

        @Coward

        Would those be the same staff that have to be retrained to use the clusterfuck that is windows 10 ?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

          Normal users (email n' excel n' word n' internet) don't need retrained to use Windows 10.

          1. JohnFen Silver badge

            Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

            That's funny, given the large number of companies who had to actively train their employees on how to use it.

      2. Jim 59

        Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

        "Because they're not sitting in their bedroom with one PC, but instead have a fleet of..."

        You almost certainly have at least 10 unix systems in your house, doing their jobs so unobtrusively that you don't even notice them.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

          "You almost certainly have at least 10 unix systems in your house, doing their jobs so unobtrusively that you don't even notice them."

          Golly gosh, do I? Well hot dang. I'm well aware of that as I set them up that way; from the Android phone I'm typing on to the Ubiquiti CCTV system I've got running on an old laptop, but that doesn't take away the fact of floors and floors of windows desktops running commercial organisations across the world that can't and won't be shifting away any time soon. FFS, I was running wine on Linux thin clients back in 2002 just until Linux was ready for the desktop. It wasn't then, it won't be any time soon. You may not like it, but it's the reality.

          1. Jim 59

            Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

            "I was running wine on Linux thin clients back in.." etc. etc.

            Yes yes. We are all experts here. I am sure you rock.

            I am happy for Windows to dominate the desktop, which it continues to do because of contractual agreement (and not for any technical reason). In fact I quite enjoy using Windows 10 at work -- where somebody else is responsible for keeping it running. At home, I run Mint 18, preferring it for 1000 reasons.

            I do have a Windows installation at home. At the moment it is screeching "I need an upgrade! Download 6 GB now!". Meanwhile, Mint has reminded me that updates are available, when I have time. They include a new kernel and Firefox upgrade. Installation, when I choose to do it, will likely take less than 60 seconds, download a few MB and be completely transparent (even the kernel). Even a full OS upgrade to Mint 19 would probably take less than 15 minutes. Some things Windows does better (ubuiquity related , eg. games) and some things Linux does better (almost everything else).

        2. Jeffrey Nonken Silver badge

          Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

          ""Because they're not sitting in their bedroom with one PC, but instead have a fleet of..."

          You almost certainly have at least 10 unix systems in your house, doing their jobs so unobtrusively that you don't even notice them."

          Red herring. There could be 100, or 1000, but that doesn't mean that Parent isn't correct that many businesses run specialized software that only runs under Windows.

          As for your numbers: can you give some examples? Where would I find these 10+ *nix systems that the average IT worker wouldn't be aware of?

        3. Terje

          Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

          Granted I'm counting my apartment and not the entire house (in which case it would not be very impressive with 10), but I could not come up with more then 8 possible candidates to run any form of unix flavor including the electricity meter in the basement.

          1. TRT Silver badge

            Re: more then 8 possible candidates to run any form of unix

            Really? I found 19, and I'm firmly opposed to smart meters, smart fridges, smart washing machines etc. Plus I'm not sure if you would count WebOS on the LG TVs... but a couple of Chromecasts, a couple of Apple TVs, a handful of PIs, a router, a cloud-managed switch, two cloud-managed APs, a commercial grade firewall, two laptops and a dual-boot desktop, a NAS, two surround amps... the list just seemed to go on and on.

      3. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

        "running software that only runs on Windows"

        In many cases, this is easily rectified. In a few cases, sadly, it is not. However, alternatives most likely exist. I think it was said best when Ernie Ball got one of those "predatory audits" back in the _very_ early noughties, and has been "Rockin' on without Microsoft" ever since.

        link: "https://www.cnet.com/news/rockin-on-without-microsoft/" (I hate captcha, using 'a' tags forced it to happen, go fig, I'm not a bot, and 'noscript' breaks captcha anyway)

        According to the article, Ernie Ball (the company) saved about $80k 'right away', nearly paying the $100k fine+costs. No doubt he's got 'a fleet' of computers, people who need to be trained to use them, etc..

        Yeah, "not that hard". No thanks for the FUD. here's a nice example of why Linux is a viable (and in this case, WAY less expensive) solution. Worth pointing out they use a commercial Linux (RH). Imagine what kind of money (and maybe even time!) you might save by using CentOS or a Debian derivative [including Devuan] and just having Linux-savvy IT on the premises.

        1. Waseem Alkurdi Silver badge

          Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

          and just having Linux-savvy IT on the premises.

          THIS!

          This is why Linux doesn't get adapted. Lazy IT staff who'd rather not bother.

          Hell, even the BOFH was initially anti-Linux (see the early episode "BOFH and the Linux Evangelist" until he "changed his mind").

          Most IT admins would simply not bother, opting to pay company $$$ to M$ instead. Less trouble, eh?

      4. Jeffrey Nonken Silver badge

        Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

        I don't know why so many downvotes. People who don't have to work with specialized software that only run under Windows, I guess. It's easy to say "just make the vendor write cross-platform" but real life doesn't work that way. Or "write your own." Easy peasy!

    2. Thomas 6
      Joke

      Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

      I tried going to the openSUSE link but in true linux fashion it didn't work out the box and had to be tweaked before it would work.

      1. Tinslave_the_Barelegged Silver badge

        Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

        I tried going to the openSUSE link but in true linux fashion it didn't work out the box and had to be tweaked before it would work.

        Mea culpa, mea culpa ad comma.

    3. really_adf

      Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

      Perhaps not for long in Edge/IE: You already have Windows 10, the safer, faster OS for ouryour PC. Go to microsoft.com / Visit Linux distribution site anyway

    4. Montreal Sean

      Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

      @Tinslave

      Not true! None of those resolutions will let me install and run IE/Edge!

      And thank $deity for that!

    5. DougS Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

      Who knows how long those resolutions will last, until Microsoft modifies the EFI to detect when you boot Linux and the firmware tells you "are you sure you don't want to run Windows 10, the safer, better OS!"

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: "don't need retrained to use Windows 10"

        As someone who has been booked in next week, by a group of staff, in order to run an updater session before the Windows 10 migration roles out to the desktops the week after, I'm afraid I have to disagree.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "don't need retrained to use Windows 10"

          I hate to say you're job's unnecessary, but I'm admin to some of the stupidest mouth breathers that ever drooled on a keyboard and they didn't need it for the switch from xp. It's really not that different for day to day users and anything you teach them out of the office doesn't survive the trip home.

          1. Waseem Alkurdi Silver badge

            Re: "don't need retrained to use Windows 10"

            @Anonymous Coward:

            Your argument rests upon these points:

            - Windows is a de-facto standard

            - Linux has its own problems

            - Luser training.

            These are all moot, because:

            - One day, Windows wasn't.

            - Its problems are waaaaaaay easier to deal with than Windows'

            - Lusers be damned. They just know how to train themselves on the latest smartphone's UI?

          2. Someone Else Silver badge

            Re: "don't need retrained to use Windows 10"

            If those mouth breathers actually did switch from XP directly to Win 10, then they came from an environment where the Windows Explorer didn't have a Ribbon, and all the applications, utilities, etc actually had buttons that were readily recognizable and accessible as buttons, and actual colors for things, and scroll bars that were actually visible, so the users knew that scrolling was an option, and a version of TuWord that that didn't try to hide its functionality behind a "simplified" interface, and....

            In other words, enough change-for-change's-sake to drive a true mouth breather to call Tech support for help. I bet you're sooo glad you're not on the receiving end of those calls.....

      2. Chibble

        Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

        Actually, a recent M$ update to my dual boot Ubuntu / W10 box overwrote the EFI, and now it just boots straight to W10. Once I can summon up the willpower, I'll fix it, but a quick trawl of Interwebs showed I'm not alone.

        1. Martin an gof Silver badge

          Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

          overwrote the EFI

          Ugh. Been there, done that, currently fighting with it again. I thought I had the recipe - install Windows first, then install (in my case) OpenSuse over the top. Turned out that Windows 7 creates a 100MB EFI partition by default, and the last time I wanted to update OS, from 42.3 to 15.1, I was told that 100MB was no longer enough and I needed half a gig minimum. Internet "wisdom" suggested a 2GB partition might be sensible.

          But how to create that on the new disc when I was re-installing? OpenSuse's quite happy to do so, but persuading W7 to use the partition has so far proved impossible. Even to get W7 to recognise the partition was there at all I had to give it a textual label that OS didn't need, but then although W7 seemed to install fine, it refused to complete "preparing Windows for first boot".

          Seriously considering whether now is the time to abandon dual boot (which was always a bit of a pain because I do switch a couple of times a day) and go with Windows in a VM. Put it off before because of worries about performance (I use Handbrake a lot in both Windows and OS) but now I have a new machine with Ryzen, perhaps not such an issue.

          M.

          1. WallMeerkat Bronze badge

            Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

            Windows in a VM is great for most applications, only downfall are things like gaming as 3D support in the hosts I've been dabbling in is sadly lacking or experimental at best.

            As more applications transition to the 'cloud' ie. other people's computers, reliance on Windows desktops can lessen as all they need is a browser - Firefox, Chome, Opera etc. for Linux are all a user might need.

            Some training for transitioning from ribbony office to something like Libreoffice / Google apps.

            One issue is that a lot of organisations use Windows for user logins, email etc. though the education market seems to be transitioning to use Chromebooks fairly successfully. (Albeit swapping one evil overlord for another)

            1. Spazturtle Silver badge

              Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

              Libreoffice has a ribbon option for people who are familiar with the ribbon.

            2. Baldrickk Silver badge

              Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

              Gaming should be very much improved under Linux itself now with proton https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/ which should be better than vanilla wine for gaming on linux.

              I've yet to try it myself, but reports have been positive.

            3. Martin an gof Silver badge

              Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

              Windows in a VM is great for most applications, only downfall are things like gaming as 3D support in the hosts I've been dabbling in is sadly lacking or experimental at best.

              The main reason I need Windows is to run Xara. This doesn't really rely on heavy duty graphics cards or direct metal access, so yes, maybe it's VM time. Never done it before, might have some issues to sort out regarding shared data discs, but certainly worth looking at. I use the aforementioned Handbrake in Windows mainly when I need to do a quick conversion without rebooting into Linux, so if Windows is in a VM that point becomes moot.

              M.

          2. Waseem Alkurdi Silver badge

            Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

            @Martin an gof

            Internet "wisdom" suggested a 2GB partition might be sensible.

            You're kidding, right?

            200 MB is the perfect size. I have Windows, GRUB 2 (Ubuntu and LFS), Android-x86, HP's EFI tools, and Clover (Hackintosh) on that, and still have some free space.

            1. Martin an gof Silver badge

              Re: Links to resolutions, will work with any browser

              Internet "wisdom" suggested a 2GB partition might be sensible.

              You're kidding, right?

              I can't check at the moment, but my memory is that when I ran the upgrade for OpenSuse, it suggested that the existing 100MB partition was too small and that 500MB would be ideal. This on a five(ish) year old machine that's seen several updates and re-installs of both Linux and Windows over the years.

              I did a bit of looking around, and came to the conclusion that 2GB would be perfect for a new machine I was planning on having at least a 5 year lifespan and therefore would also have to endure several OpenSuse updates and probably a W7 to W10 transition too.

              The point isn't really about the exact size of the EFI partition, the point is that the W7 installer will only create a 100MB partition and that I've had great difficulty persuading it to use the partition created by the OpenSuse installer. I would have had the same trouble if said partition was 500MB or 200MB or even (I suspect) 100MB.

              M.

  7. chivo243 Silver badge
    Headmaster

    I bash google when possible

    "Google, for example, has adopted similar tactics to plug its own browser when using its search engine without incurring quite the same wrath."

    I'm all for google bashing, but I don't think having a small banner, offering their browser, on their webpage is the same as M$ detecting a competing browser being installed on their OS and sending in Clippy to rag on your ass is the same or even slightly similar.

    1. DavCrav Silver badge

      Re: I bash google when possible

      "I'm all for google bashing, but I don't think having a small banner, offering their browser, on their webpage is the same as M$ detecting a competing browser being installed on their OS and sending in Clippy to rag on your ass is the same or even slightly similar."

      I agree. As does the article, which said:

      Having an operating system detecting the binary of an installer starting up and suggesting an alternative is, admittedly, another level.

      1. chivo243 Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: I bash google when possible

        I get it, gotta fill space... first we dehydrate then we rehydrate it! Just like Pringles! So the whole google bash was just filler, like a equation has parts that cancel each other out.

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Meh

          Re: I bash google when possible

          "like a equation has parts that cancel each other out."

          until you divide by zero...

          1. DavCrav Silver badge

            Re: I bash google when possible

            "until you divide by zero..."

            That's fine as long as you also multiply by zero, and do it well. It's the basis of calculus.

            1. Martin an gof Silver badge

              Re: I bash google when possible

              until you divide by zero...

              I have completely forgotten the context, but I well remember the lesson. My A-level class (back in the 1980s) once spent an entire 40 minute "single period" maths lesson struggling to follow the teacher as he wrote a whole rolling blackboard worth of proof for something-or-other, carefully balancing both sides of each and every equation until, two minutes before the bell he triumphantly announced he was nearly finished, paused for a heartbeat, and sighed.

              The last line he had written boldly proclaimed:

              0 = 1

              M.

              1. DropBear Silver badge
                Trollface

                Re: I bash google when possible

                As well as it should be! This is 2018 - shameful, archaic, digitist attitudes trying to deny that all numbers should rightfully be equal have no place in modern maths! It's time to make sure all "1"s with delusions of being more that their fellow "0"s get their privilege checked! We need to send a clear message that any use of inequalities will no longer be tolerated! Our free help line is open 24/7 to any numbers who want to step forward to report having been molested by a mathematician in the past and wish to press criminal charges...

    2. Franco Silver badge

      Re: I bash google when possible

      I'll grant you Microsoft have upped the ante here, but this sort of nonsense has been going on for years. Google with their pop-ups and drive-by downloads bundled with Adobe apps amongst others, and Apple have also had a try when they started pushing out Safari as a "recommended update" to iTunes.

      I've also noticed on Android that certain apps will default to sending hyperlinks to Chrome, even though Firefox is my default browser there.

  8. Duncan Macdonald Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Block IE and Edge

    I use the program control feature of the NIS firewall to block both of them (and Cortana) from Internet access. Until IE and Edge get a working equivalent of NoScript and AdBlockPlus, they are not safe for use on the Internet. Disabling them removes one of the biggest attack vectors on Windows 10.

    1. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: Block IE and Edge

      Windows 10 is essentially malware. People who can't avoid using it should at least firewall it off from Microsoft servers (using an external firewall, not one running on the Windows boxes).

      1. revdjenk

        Re: Block IE and Edge

        I dual boot LinuxMint and win10 at my office computer. Twice a year, I update windows, in case it gets used, to keep it safe. Just completed that task on Monday. It took from 11am - 6pm! Three reboots!

        Once that was done, rebooted into Mint and noticed update available, including kernel update. Took less than 15 minutes, and I kept working! No restarts required!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Block IE and Edge

          you mean it took longer to install an update on a system that hasn't been updated for 6 months than on a system you keep up to date? What a surprise

          1. Tomato42 Silver badge

            Re: Block IE and Edge

            if that Mint wasn't updated for half a year it would need an hour tops to install all updates; unlike Windows, the installation usually takes just an hour, even for the including-kitchen-sink package selection option

            now, do install just windows and orfice in an hour

          2. Updraft102 Silver badge

            Re: Block IE and Edge

            you mean it took longer to install an update on a system that hasn't been updated for 6 months than on a system you keep up to date? What a surprise

            Sorry to get in the way of a well-timed snark, but that's not how it works with Windows 10. Each feature update, the big ones that come twice a year, are full in-place upgrades to the new version, installing full Windows over the old one. It is going to take that long whether you've kept it up to date or not. The days of incremental service pack downloads that were relatively tiny if you kept up-to-date are behind us... now we're in the "Windows as a Service" model.

            I'm glad the thing about Linux not being ready for the desktop was a bunch of FUD... it's been working really well on mine since I started transitioning over two years ago. It would have to be pretty bad to make it better to put up with Microsoft's nonsense. The businesses that are "locked in" would often be able to find ways to not be locked in if they actually ever tried it. They enjoy being Microsoft's whipping boy, though, so there's no accounting for masochism, I guess.

            1. JohnFen Silver badge

              Re: Block IE and Edge

              "now we're in the "Windows as a Service" model."

              I like to call this the "Windows as a disservice" model.

            2. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

              Re: Block IE and Edge @Updraft

              For my own use, I am completely Windows free.

              I do dual-boot my laptop, and I did boot into Windows a few weeks back to check (and fix fix) it after I migrated the whole system to an SSD (and I put the latest Windows patches on), but other than that, all my day-to-day computing is Linux or UNIX only.

              I agree that it is about the applications you run, but to claim re-training your staff is a reason is just FUD.

              Windows has some serious advantages at an Enterprise level (AD, Policy Director, Sharepoint [or whatever it's called now]), but for many organizations a sensible and properly resourced Linux implementation is possible. Where I've seen this, though, it often only takes one person in authority (or who is able to be influenced) to push for a return to windows strategy for this to happen (see the background in the Munich City travesty - exactly why did Microsoft choose to become a major employer close to Munich?)

              No, unfortunately Microsoft still have far to much influence so that (native) Linux will never have it's day on the desktop. Chromebooks, however...

          3. don't you hate it when you lose your account
            Facepalm

            just to say

            I did a reinstall on a friends dell laptop at the weekend. Reinstalled from the provided disk image, installed Office and ran (and ran) Microshaft updates, took about 11 hours on my 4mg ADSL. Then I installed Mint 18 from usb (image was about 18 months old) and ran updates, whole thing took about 90 minutes including updating ALL the software.

            Makes you think.

            PS Mint runs far smother for what she need, even office under WINE.

        2. Christian Harten

          Re: Block IE and Edge

          You'll have to reboot (or kexec) to use the new kernel though. The Windows reboots are especially annoying on a dual boot system since you always have to be around to select Windows from the boot screen - at least they don't overwrite your boot loader anymore.

          1. Spazturtle Silver badge

            Re: Block IE and Edge

            "You'll have to reboot (or kexec) to use the new kernel though."

            Security updates can be applied with live patching though, so if you are on the LTS Kernel then you only need to reboot every 6 years.

        3. Someone Else Silver badge
          Coat

          @revdjenk -- Re: Block IE and Edge

          That is the difference between an operating system, and Windows.

  9. Chronos Silver badge
    Stop

    The plot.

    "I'm sure I left it here. I just had it a moment ago. Can you check your pockets again?"

    Any tenuous grasp they had on reality has slipped away. As any reasonably experienced driver will tell you, this is what happens when you blindly follow the SatNad.

  10. Calum Morrison

    It's OK; you can set firefox as your default!

    Until "something went wrong and we had to reset your default browser". Happens too regularly to be coincidence, and never seemed to be an issue in the days of Windows XP etc, all apparently much less stable OSs. Hmmm.

    1. James O'Shea Silver badge

      Re: It's OK; you can set firefox as your default!

      Hmm. I'm typing this using Firefox on a Win 10 system. I have _never_ seen the message "something went wrong and we had to reset your default browser", not even once. This particular machine started as a Win 7 system (and still has Win 7 in another partition) and was 'updated' to Win 8 (there's a reason why the Win 7 partition is there) and Win 8 to 8.1, which was semi-usable but I kept the Win 7 partition, and Win 8.1 to Win 10... and it's been the better part of a year since I've booted the Win 7 partition, and that last time was merely to update the various Microsoft patches on the partition. It took a weekend, which is one reason why I've not booted Win 7 since. It may be heresy to some, but Win 10 is not merely better than Win 8/8.1 (not at all difficult), but is at least as good as Win 7 in most ways, and sometimes is actually better. It boots faster, on the same hardware, than Win 7 does. Yes. Really. (Warning! Danger, Will Robinson, danger! Many downvotes inbound at Mach 6!)

      I use Edge only to visit Microsoft sites. The Win 8 partition started as a clone of the Win 7 partition, and I did an update install of Win 8, followed by an update install of Win 8.1, followed by an update install of Win 10. Firefox was the default browser on the Win 7 partition. I had to slap the Win 8 install to make it admit that Firefox was the default browser, but the Win 8.1 and 10 installs behaved.

      No, Chrome is not present on this machine.

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: It's OK; you can set firefox as your default!

        I have to concede that the current incarnation of Windows 10 is not too bad. It's familiar enough that the learning curve basically joins up along with a line drawn between "Where's the control panel?", "How do I get rid of these coloured buttons?" and "How do I shut the thing down now?"

        If we didn't need it for a fair few applications, we would probably lose it, but hey, everyone else uses it...

        HOWEVER, the price for getting to Windows 10, which I'm only just grudgingly allowing to go into our workplaces now, is getting there via Windows 8 and 8.1, which are abominations unto The Lord, and should never have seen the light of day. Does the end justify the means? Microsoft could have saved everyone a lot of grief by just accepting that Windows 7 was actually not that bad, and then built on that instead of tearing up the rule book and trying to write it anew.

        1. Calum Morrison

          Re: It's OK; you can set firefox as your default!

          I genuinely do like Windows 10 but I've had that a lot. Admittedly it hasn't happened since I flattened my 1709 daily driver and installed 1803 at the weekend but over various builds, it's happened enough (for jpg and other associations too) to be noticeable. Funnily enough, it's never set my default email client back to the Mail app, it then I do (tinfoil hat) use Outlook for that...

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Flame

        Re: It's OK; you can set firefox as your default!

        there are a handful of people, admittedly, who actually _LIKE_ windows 10. What *REALLY* *PISSES* *ME* *OFF* is how *THAT* is used to *JUSTIFY* *CRAMMING* *IT* *INTO* *THE* *REST* *OF* *OUR* *RECTUMS* because Micro-shaft and a small percentage of windows users *FEEL* it is better, and so the *REST* of us *MUST* *USE* *IT* *TOO*.

        taking away choice is BAD customer relations. It's more like... *A* *MONOPOLY* !!!

        1. Updraft102 Silver badge

          Re: It's OK; you can set firefox as your default!

          Of course the rest of us have to be forced to use 10 if we don't want to. How else are we going to be monetized? The entire OS was designed for that purpose, and the update system allows them to push out any more unwanted monetization efforts without our consent any time they wish.

          I'd quit computing before I used 10. I'd quit a job that made me use or support it. Everyone has a line somewhere...

        2. RyokuMas Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: It's OK; you can set firefox as your default!

          "there are a handful of people..."

          Kind of like there are a handful* of people who will howl in abject horror at anything Microsoft does, regardless of whether or not is potentially beneficial, with or without precedent or there is someone else behaving in exactly the same manner on an even grander scale...?

          ... or how they insist on "cramming it up our rectums" how much better Linux/Chrome/[insert equivalent non-Microsoft technology of choice] is...?

          *Okay, probably more than a handful. But at least the vast of them are mature enough to know that lots of caps, stars and other "emphasis" marks in a post just makes an argument look childish, no matter whether it is a valid argument or a straight-up tantrum.

  11. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    Pay to play

    It's the 2018 equivalent of the browser toolbar with MS presumably selling digital shelf space to vendors.

  12. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

    "slimy marketing cesspool crap"

    Has Microshaft actually improved THAT much?

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    O365 admin portal runs much better in Firefox than it does in IE or Edge, about 4 times faster just navigating around.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    An ode:

    For heavens Sake Microsoft

    Use your eyes and ears

    Chances are you'll hear the ire and

    Know we hate your style

    Oft times, how we rage, pleading:

    Find the way to push your wares

    Free from mindless craft

    1. Waseem Alkurdi Silver badge

      Re: An ode:

      From a deep well, what echoes your words is this:

      We've heard, we've seen

      Lusers, very green.

      Hate? They don't

      Plead to deaf ears, hear you we won't.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: An ode:

        @Waseem Alkurdi

        Yeah, but yours isn't an acrostic, is it?

        1. Waseem Alkurdi Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: An ode:

          Didn't know what that was, but when I looked up "acrostic" in a dictionary, I got the idea of yours! xD

          One on me (not alcoholic though) ;-)

          1. DryBones

            Re: An ode:

            Well it's not really a beer then, is it? That's flavored water.

            1. Waseem Alkurdi Silver badge

              Re: An ode:

              @DryBones

              "Non-alcoholic beer" they call it, but yep, it is flavored water.

    2. Someone Else Silver badge

      Re: An ode:

      Find the way to push your wares

      Free from mindless craft cruft

      There, FTFY

  15. JohnFen Silver badge

    Reeks of desperation

    This is not only a clear abuse of Microsoft's position, it also reeks of desperation. For that reason, I'm a bit amused by it.

    1. Florida1920 Silver badge

      Re: Reeks of desperation

      This is not only a clear abuse of Microsoft's position, it also reeks of desperation. For that reason, I'm a bit amused by it.
      Agree. They're clearly afraid of losing their Edge.

      1. Updraft102 Silver badge

        Re: Reeks of desperation

        Agree. They're clearly afraid of losing their Edge.

        Indeed. If they're not careful, they might alienate their users. Either one of them could leave at any moment.

  16. MajorDoubt
    FAIL

    Fuck off microshit

    I hate windows 10, and you should too

  17. DrXym Silver badge

    Edge: "What's my purpose?"

    Everyone: "You download the better browser we want to use"

  18. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    Another weird feature in 1809 (current release)

    In Windows search, try typing Internet Explorer It will only ever find Edge, even if you have Internet Explorer installed.

    That said, Windows 10 search is utter shite at the best of times, but this appears to be deliberate behaviour, as clearly Microsoft know better than me why I want to run IE11 (actually they don't, I needed to run something that only runs in IE and nothing else).

    1. James O'Shea Silver badge

      Re: Another weird feature in 1809 (current release)

      "In Windows search, try typing Internet Explorer It will only ever find Edge, even if you have Internet Explorer installed."

      Errr... no. I have Win10 1809 installed on this machine. When I type 'Inter' into the search box the _first_ item shown is Internet Explorer. The second is Edge.

    2. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: Another weird feature in 1809 (current release)

      "That said, Windows 10 search is utter shite at the best of times"

      You're being too kind. Windows 10 is worse than shite. It's broken to the point of being utterly useless.

      1. JohnFen Silver badge

        Re: Another weird feature in 1809 (current release)

        Just for clarity: when I said "Windows 10 is worse than shite." what I meant was "Windows 10 search is worse than shite."

        1. Someone Else Silver badge

          @JohnFen -- Re: Another weird feature in 1809 (current release)

          Just for clarity: when I said "Windows 10 is worse than shite." what I meant was "Windows 10 search is worse than shite."

          Actually, I think you were right the first time....

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: Another weird feature in 1809 (current release)

        "Windows 10 is worse than shite. It's broken to the point of being utterly useless."

        well, I couldn't go THAT far and remain accurate. It's not 'utterly useless'. IRRITATING for sure. But, unfortunately, people really ARE able to use it to get things done. Except during certain phases of the mandatory updates. [and I don't want to schedule my life around Micro-shaft's convenience, thank you]

        I still despise Win-10-nic and the horrible attitudes of those who continue to try to force-market and strong-arm us into it.

    3. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: Another weird feature in 1809 (current release)

      "Windows 10 search is utter shite"

      better to install Cygwin, use 'find' and 'grep'. Or, just not run Win-10-nic at all.

      (see icon)

      1. WallMeerkat Bronze badge

        Re: Another weird feature in 1809 (current release)

        Or Agent Ransack, if you like ease of use

      2. JohnFen Silver badge

        Re: Another weird feature in 1809 (current release)

        Yes. I'm forced to use Windows at work, and use grep for searching. But it continually boggles my mind that Microsoft can screw up something even as basic as searching.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Google, for example, has adopted similar tactics

    I've noticed a recent annoying change to Google Chrome where all the links on Googles search page are now modified.

    If you right click on a link on Google's search page for El Reg for example you will get:

    https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.theregister.co.uk/&sa=U&ved=[*some long string]

    (Very annoying if you save URL's to a list or share a link and have to manually strip out the added data)

    1. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: Google, for example, has adopted similar tactics

      That's not new behavior, and not related to Chrome. The links provided on the search page have been like that for a long time now.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Megaphone

    Hate Edge?

    For what it’s worth, if you’ve tried uninstalling Microsoft Edge from PowerShell but found you couldn’t, I have trick (https://annoyedmicrosoftuser.blogspot.com/2016/08/how-to-uninstall-microsoft-edge-cleanly.html) that might help you.

  21. Electronics'R'Us
    Devil

    Windows is not always optional

    Don't get me wrong; I really like Linux (and even write code for it sometimes), but my CAD tools (I design hardware too) are Windows only.

    Yes, there are alternatives, but for the feature set I need I would need to fork out at least another £10k for the tools that can run on Linux (there is at least one professional toolset that does), and the feature sets of the free / open alternatives simply are not up there - yet.

    That said, I do limit my time in Win10 to only when I need to use tools that are Windows only.

    1. WallMeerkat Bronze badge

      Re: Windows is not always optional

      Are the toolsets able to run on wine or a VM?

      1. Electronics'R'Us
        Devil

        Re: Windows is not always optional

        "Are the toolsets able to run on wine or a VM?"

        That depends on the processing power and memory you have. Running natively on Win10 my tools use the best part of 8GB without doing 'special' stuff. This is a (logical) quad core machine and even so startup and entering a new mode can take quite a while. Most of the engineering tools I know of (be they CAD, heavy duty simulation (think hyperlynx) or whatever) recommend at least 16GB memory installed.

        The graphics are also pretty intensive, as would be expected for a CAD tool.

        I haven't tried to run these tools in a VM yet; perhaps I will try and see what happens, but I am not particularly hopeful as these tools typically get as close to the graphics hardware as possible.

  22. Forget It

    Edge isn't all bad if you don't let it on to the Internet.

    I use it to read epubs of disk in windows 10.

    1. James O'Shea Silver badge

      Why do that? Install calibre to manage your epubs and use the calibre ebook reader. The only reason to use Edge is to go to Microsoft sites, and to download another web browser.

  23. Andytug

    Not the only example of "Nanny knows best" in W10

    It constantly resets the default jpg app to Photos, despite me manually setting it to Irfanview over and over again.

  24. Flakk Silver badge

    #NoMeansNo

    Nothing follows.

  25. AndrueC Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    Not just insider preview. I took delivery of a new laptop yesterday and got the same 'in your face' adverts when I downloaded Chrome. And of course when you visit MSDN or a lot of other MS sites in A.N.Other browser it suggests that you try Edge.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    re. What kind of slimy marketing cesspool crap is this Microsoft?

    you stepped into shit, it sticks = serves you right.

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Google, for example, has adopted similar tactics

    well, unless you run IE (or edge, I suppose), you can easily block google plug with any ad buttplug on firefox.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Trying to get you to link MS accounts too

    Ever since the previous update Windows 10 will periodically bug me about linking my local account to a Microsoft account under the guise of it being a 'security centre' suggestion that will make my machine more secure, suggesting there is a risk if I don't.

    No Thanks. If I wanted that, I would have selected that in the first place. I liked Windows 10 at first, but it's fast becoming a train wreck with actual issues not being fixed, and code to produce garbage suggestions such as these presumably being where all the work is being done.

    1. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: Trying to get you to link MS accounts too

      Yes. This sort of bullying behavior from Microsoft is completely unacceptable and means that even if Windows 10 was wonderful in every single way, I'd still avoid it to the greatest degree possible. Microsoft's behavior taints all of their products and reinforces the fact that Microsoft cannot be trusted.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    re Microsoft is doubtless gauging reaction to the setting

    first they came for the default "on",

    but I didn't protest, because I was off

    then, they came for the old OSes

    by teaming with hardware manufacturers,

    to block old OSes

    but I didn't protest, because

    I couldn't be f... about new hardware

    old ran smoothly thankyouverymuch

    then they came for the VPN

    cause terrorists

    suddenly I lost my connection :/

    1. Waseem Alkurdi Silver badge

      Re: re Microsoft is doubtless gauging reaction to the setting

      Big Brother says:

      We know what's best,

      That it should be on, don't jest!

      These old bones you're hanging on to

      They don't make a good shield, no place to go to

      You should use new hardware,

      Because why not, why shouldn't you?

      Really? You thought that VPNs beat phone-home keyloggers?

  30. Jay Lenovo Silver badge
    Big Brother

    Windows 10: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it

    Edge's power comes from the fact that it only runs on Windows 10. Really good browsers apparently only work on one OS and only the latest version.

    ...and Keurig's 2.0 DRM'ed coffee cups should have worked well too.

    Pesky customers, not agreeing to what is best.

  31. N2 Silver badge

    Don't want to use Edge?

    Er, no thank you I will never use Edge even if it was the last web browser on earth.

    Microsoft set the gold standard for crapiness with Internet Explorer and Edge was just refined shite.

    How many times do we have to say 'You cannot polish a turd'?

    1. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

      Re: Don't want to use Edge?

      But you can roll it in glitter

      1. JohnFen Silver badge

        Re: Don't want to use Edge?

        Pro tip: Eat the glitter, then the shit is beautiful all the way through.

    2. Someone Else Silver badge

      Re: Don't want to use Edge?

      How many times do we have to say 'You cannot polish a turd'?

      Well, actually, Mythbusters proved you can polish a turd. But in the end, you still have a turd.

  32. Wade Burchette

    Dear Microsoft

    If your product was superior, people would be knocking down your doors to use it. If Edge and Windows 10 was really good, you wouldn't have to resort to dirty tricks to get people to use it. The simple fact that you must resort to underhanded tactics means your product is garbage, it does not mean we are ignorant.

    Dear Microsoft, if you are reading this and listening -- and based on much you listened to feedback in Windows 10 beta I know you are not -- I will tell you what is wrong with Edge. First, the UI is confusing and stupid. The simple fact is it could solve world peace but if the UI is so terrible that it is difficult to use, like the UI in Edge is, then nothing else matters. Second, I shouldn't have to use the Microsoft store to install add-ons. (I, of course, know why that is true. The purpose of Windows 10 is to make money off me after day 1 and you thus want me to get used to using the Windows store so I will buy stuff through it.) Third, updates should never ever without exception require a restart. The browser and the OS should be separate.

    I will be happy to use Edge without being pushed if, and only if, you make a product worth using. As it is now, you made a product worth running away from.

    1. Waseem Alkurdi Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Dear Microsoft

      Dear Microsoft, if you are reading this and listening

      You know they aren't.

      1. Someone Else Silver badge

        Re: Dear Microsoft

        Au contraire, if you wrote and posted that on Windows 10, the are reading it and listening. Whether they are paying attention...well, that's a different story.

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I have haven'y used a MS browser since the 1990s and I'm not going to bloody start now, it's still glitter on shit.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      If you mean the Edge UI is glitter and the IE engine underneath that it uses is shit, you're wrong about the glitter.

      How about shit on shit?

  34. Waseem Alkurdi Silver badge

    Why is everybody upset?

    I really don't get it.

    M$'s name ends in "Corporation".

    It's a megacorp.

    Why should we expect it to act like a human being and put profit before morals?

    Yeah, we've all seen how GM put a price on human life in the 60s, for instance.

    1. WallMeerkat Bronze badge

      Re: Why is everybody upset?

      Any business that creates potentially dangerous (ie. something that in the wrong circumstances can end badly) vehicle products such as cars, planes, buses, trains etc. are always going to have to balance and cost the requirement for safety against the extra cost and weight that it would place onto the vehicle.

      I'm sure we could all be driving around in 10 ton tanks that bounce off accidents, but it could cost a fortune to build, buy, fuel and maintain. And building an airplane out of the same material as the black box would mean it would require a rocket to get it off the ground.

      One of the criticisms of the modern MINI compared to the original Mini is that it has became too bloated and heavy. But I know which I would rather have an accident in.

      Of course some corporations - such as Volvo and strangely for a while in the 2000s Renault - try to go above and beyond the call of safety and use this as a USP.

      But if your competitors car sells for x and your safer car sells for 1.5x because of all the safety equipment, which is going to sell better?

      One criticism levelled against Nissan was that their developing world Datsun car ( https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/25/nissan-backs-down-over-car-safety-controversy-in-india ) wasn't particularly safe. It was built to a cost to be as cheap as possible, and only after controversy (as GM faced in 'Unsafe at Any Speed') did it strengthen the body and fit airbags.

  35. skalamanga

    Reported as a bug

    Issue: the windows 10 web browser download tool is broken

    Steps to recreate: open browser download tool, navigate to browser website of choice, run installer.

    What should happen?: browser download tool should not be a whiny bitch about being ignored and not taken seriously.

    What does happen?: browser download tool is a whiny bitch about being ignored and not taken seriously.

  36. Updraft102 Silver badge

    I really don't get it.

    M$'s name ends in "Corporation".

    ...

    Why should we expect it to act like a human being and put profit before morals?

    I would complain if I was bitten by a snake too.

    I know that snakes bite. It's kind of their thing, like making profit is for for-profit businesses. It is the expected thing for them to do. It still sucks to have it happen to you, and I'd still be in a bad state if it happened.

    Microsoft was making profit when they released Win2k, XP, and 7 too, and while a lot of us had problems with their behavior much of the time, it wasn't the stabbing in the back to us, the users of Windows, the ones who are responsible for them being the huge juggernaut they are, that is Windows 10.

    Microsoft clearly has lost interest in being an OS vendor, particularly in the consumer market. Nadella's head is up.... er, in the cloud. It's all about the cloud, and a Windows that doesn't force people into its cloud services only makes sense to CEOs who have the sense to recognize that if you push too hard with your sales pitch, you make people angry enough to avoid your product, and that destroying Windows (which I continue to think is Microsoft's long-term goal) doesn't leave them as the "pure" cloud services vendor they wish to be. It leaves them as a cloud services vendor without a natural onramp that Windows would have continued to be had they pushed a little bit less hard, with tons of extremely angry PHBs having to call someone else to get them set up with another OS... someone else that probably has cloud services, and hasn't just tried to light the way forward by burning all the bridges.

    I don't think even Microsoft believes that they can treat their customers as they have and keep them as customers long-term. Short-term, the years they have spent ensuring vendor lock-in will keep their customers in the line of fire for considerable time... years. Even the biggest monopoly falls when they use that monopoly power to push crap on people. MS had 90% market share in browsers in the early XP years... where are they now? Having to beg and prod people to pretty please try Edge?

  37. Ken Mitchell

    Speak To Cortana

    Too bad that if such a popup appears, you can't tell Cortana "Go F*** off!" and have Micro$oft understand that no, we're NOT interested in M$ nagware.

    1. Someone Else Silver badge

      Re: Speak To Cortana

      Were it to be this easy:

      User: "Cortana, fuck off!"

      Cortana: "OK. Fucking off." <click>

  38. ops4096

    Not just Edge

    Has anybody noticed that, for members of the peanut gallery, Windows 10 does not allow ANY app which was NOT purchased and downloaded from micros*&%t's app store to be set as default app for file extension X. So, as instance, ops has been using a very nice epub reader called Calibre' FOR YEARS. Apparently however Calibre' has not sucked d*&k hard enough to get into microx&(%^&*t's sanctum so no default app status for poor old Calibre'.

    1. WolfFan Silver badge

      Re: Not just Edge

      Try to not let your Microsoft hatred run away with you. On my Win10 laptop, I have DOC, DOCX, and RTF set to open in LibreOfiice, as well as EPUB set to open in Caliber’s ebook reader. That would be three Microsoft formats and the very format you used as an example of what can’t be done. And, yes, MS Office is installed, it’s merely not the default. I also have Firefox set as the default web browser, even though Edge is installed, VLC does videos, and the GIMP handles pix, despite multiple image-handling apps shipping with the OS. Last I looked, LibreOffice, Firefox, VLC, and the GIMP didn’t ship via Microsoft’s store. Seriously, man, get a grip.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not just Edge

        You say they are crazy... but how do we know MS is not doing random "sampling" of changing settings? Huh? ;)

      2. WallMeerkat Bronze badge

        Re: Not just Edge

        > " Last I looked, LibreOffice, Firefox, VLC, and the GIMP didn’t ship via Microsoft’s store. Seriously, man, get a grip."

        If you use LibreOffice, Calibre, Firefox, VLC, GIMP applications, why don't you just use Linux then?

        1. WolfFan Silver badge

          Re: Not just Edge

          Because certain apps I must use for work do not run on Linux. Because certain hardware I must use does not have Linux drivers. Because, while I use LibreOffice for most most office-type work, some word processor and spreadsheet files break if not run past MS Office. In particular LibreOffice has serious problems with complex tables while Word and Excel handle them without problems and have handled them since the 1980s. It’s not bloody rocket science, but LibreOffice and OpenOffice before it simply can’t hack it, and until LO or OO can hack it I must have MS Office. Which does not run in Linux. I could run a VM, but that’s just running Windows anyway. I could run WINE, but some of the required apps and drivers don’t play well with WINE. It’s simpler to just run Windows.

          1. whitepines Silver badge

            Re: Not just Edge

            Use Windows in a VM with no, or heavily limited, Internet access. You don't have to choose your primary OS based on a few applications, treat them as the legacy cruft they are.

            1. WolfFan Silver badge

              Re: Not just Edge

              Doing that means adding a layer of operations. If I want to run one of the apps which requires Windows, I must first load the VM. Most VMs do pass-through for peripherals. One problem is Linux can't talk to certain hardware because there are no Linux drivers for it. This includes a $150,000 device. We are not going to buy a new device until the old one, currently nearly 20 years old, croaks. It doesn't talk to Linux. It does talk to Windows. (And Mac) Linux can't do the pass-through thing because Linux doesn't know that the device exists., when it was new no-one thought of doing Linux drivers for it. Yes, we are looking to replace it, it won't live forever. No, it still works and as long as it does, no we won't abandon it. (and spend another $150,000 to replace it, prices have NOT come down, there are fewer vendors now and less choice which means the demand is still there but the supply is limited and the vendors can charge what they want and know we must pay. Which is another reason why we hang onto this one like grim death.)

              It's not happening. Linux-based systems cannot do the required job. Windows (and Mac) systems can. It is simpler to just use Windows (or Mac). Period. End of story. Except that it's not 'legacy cruft', it's 'stuff that keeps us in business'.

              1. Waseem Alkurdi Silver badge

                Re: Not just Edge

                - The machine could "talk" to a Mac AND to Windows. Mac (OS X) is UNIX, Linux is UNIX's cousin.

                - How does the machine connect to a PC/Mac? USB? Serial? Ethernet? IP over Avian Carriers?

                All these can be sniffed and their communications reverse-engineered, You just need a packet sniffer and somebody with the courage.

                (If the machine is very old, chances that are it won't connect to newer computers either)

                But anyhow, it can be mostly solved by reverse engineering, but start at the connector, then the Mac (OS X?) driver.

  39. FlippingGerman

    To put it simply, Microsoft:

    Fuck off.

    I paid for my OS. And my Surface Pro 4. Quite a bit. I'm not bitter, because yes, it takes a lot of work, and devs deserve to be paid. But please just let me use it without constantly nagging me.

    1. WallMeerkat Bronze badge

      Re: To put it simply, Microsoft:

      You paid for a licence to use the software at Microsoft's discretion.

  40. onebignerd

    Only shows Microsoft's desperation to get Edge users. Didn't use IE will NOT use Edge.

  41. Kev99 Bronze badge

    I think the big difference between google and microsoft is google uses an annoying but somewhat discrete small banner and, based on the screenshot, microsoft if using an almost full screen pop-up that blocks what's on the screen. Add to that microsoft's much deserved crappy reputation of spyware, lousy code and refusal to respond to bugs and malware and it's understandable why so many are in an uproar.

  42. DeKrow
    Holmes

    Stealthily

    "adverts continuing to stealthily make their way into the operating system"

    Stealthily like a fart in an elevator populated by two people.

    So, I'm running Windows 10 unlicensed. I wasn't sure if the "stealthy" advertising was their way of monetising an unlicensed installation. Seems not. Makes me glad I haven't paid for the privilege of receiving unsolicited advertising at least.

    I see Desktop Linux has moved closer than the horizon it occupied for a couple of decades.

  43. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

    Stupid as Stupid Does

    Chocolate factory is catching flak for their sleazy practices, rightfully so. But the issue is should Slurp sink to that level or lower. For long term customer relations and retention Slurp needs to rethink its entire customer relation policies. Angry customers will be looking for an alternative.and will become ex-customers. And they will not return. They also tend to be more vocal about leaving. This action shows a disdain for the customer. There are good reasons for the average user to have multiple browsers installed. Insulting the user is not a good business practice, ever.

  44. whitepines Silver badge
    Happy

    What's old is new again

    Remember this comic strip?

    https://books.google.com/books?id=djslWNXRcJAC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&source=bl&ots=vUGrYDwRcA&sig=myGjtTjx1uamPV9JLUqMJxlv1Oo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhmPSIorfdAhUL9IMKHd7xBWQQ6AEwAHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=foxtrot%20netscape%20detected%20deleted&f=false

  45. nice spam database '); drop table users; --

    I feel pity for those still using windows...

  46. Neil Charles

    Is this new?

    I swear I got that popup when I put Firefox on my Windows 10 work laptop, which would have been over a year ago.

  47. UberMunchkin

    I have not used a Microsoft Browser since the installation of IE6 destroyed my computer and required a complete reformat and re-install of the operating system. Nothing they say is going to convince me that I should be using their browser.

    This is just another in a long line of dubious MS tactics to try and leverage their monopoly to trick people into using software that no one wants to use.

  48. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Life's too short

    When using Windows I always stick with Microsoft offerings wherever possible... If it works, and it's supported automatically, for free, for life, then it doesn't seem worth the bother of installing 3rd party suff. You also get the benefit of Edge favourites shared across all your devices without having to bother about importing and exporting. Web sites ought to be browser-neutral anyway.

    If there is more than one person and one PC in your work group or household and you are the one expected to fix things when they go wrong, then the more that can be off-loaded to Microsoft, the better!

    1. WallMeerkat Bronze badge

      Re: Life's too short

      Nice try, Microsoft employee. Go back to Redmond.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Life's too short

        LOL, I use a Mac mostly, but am the responsible adult for several PCs!

  49. mark l 2 Silver badge

    This goes to show how desperate Microsoft are to be relevant, for years they left everyone open to be shafted by refusing to make Internet Explorer secure and so people moved off to other browsers. Now they have a better browser but no one trusts it because of what happened with IE.

    I have moved away from Windows since around 2012 when I installed Linux Mint and use it on my two main machines, I have Windows 7 one the laptop and 10 on my desktop as dual boot options but mights only boot into them once every few weeks. Now I don't need to use any specific software that isn't available under Linux so switching was easy for me. But I do believe that the only reason that MS don't produce a version of Office 365 natively for Linux, is because they know that a large percentage of businesses would not longer need Windows if Office was available natively for Linux. I think MS are aware that one of the main reason why businesses are upgrading from Windows 7 to 10 is because there is no other easy option if they need to continue to run Office and time is running out on 7 support.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "This goes to show how desperate Microsoft are to be relevant"

      - PCs are designed to run Windows. Yes I know other OSs are available, but without Windows, there would be no PCs as we know them. Probably the Macs would not survive either. Reason being it would be uneconomic to make the hardware. I'm old enough to remember the time before "Wintel" and believe me you do not want to go there!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Actually they were good days, OS/2 was a good OS (despite the MS connection, IBM made them do everything right from the ground up, and it inspired their stable NT offering).

        You had off the wall interesting OSs such as Acorn RISCos, the Amiga was still a powerhouse, ST with TOS (that could also run on x86 as GEM until Apple hobbled it). Even BeOS was interesting even if nobody used it.

        MS ruined it by forcing PC manufacturers to not entertain any other OS. They did the same a decade ago to destroy the netbook market, which is only survived by iPad inspired tablets and Google Chromebooks.

      2. JohnFen Silver badge

        "I'm old enough to remember the time before "Wintel" and believe me you do not want to go there!"

        I'm old enough to remember those time as well, and I disagree with your conclusion. Some things are better since then, of course, but an awful lot of other things are much worse -- and a lot of those things are worse directly because of Microsoft.

  50. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Or use Internet Explorer...

    It is installed, just start typing its name in Cortana / search bar and it appears.

  51. BahnStormer77

    Chrome sometimes has issues with some funny proxy rules, so I've tried Edge a fair bit: Edge isn't TOO bad, if you can live without the useful add-ins... and also just work out how to set and KEEP Google as the default search engine (Bing seems to short-list dozens of spam sites and irrelevant/inappropriate adverts ahead of genuine results)... ironically, the only site that is really unusable with Edge is Hotmail - where the adverts just grind the whole e-mail process into a 1990's era modem-like experience - almost as bad as when MS first migrated Hotmail to Windows Servers!

  52. MS Surface

    MS Edge is the best browser by far in my opinion...

    In particular on any MS Surface with build-in LTE or Windows 10 on ARM devices. Is not causing any problems with Modern Standby, starts instantly, runs very fast, excellent RAM management, never crashing, updating extensions in the background even in Modern Standby state. Amazing touch support. Where is exactly the opposite while trying Chrome or Opera, which are OK on my old desktop but struggle terribly or are completely unusable on the mentioned devices. Firefox is improving slowly with every new build.

    1. whitepines Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: MS Edge is the best browser by far in my opinion...

      How's the weather in Delhi? Do you get paid enough to copy that script into various forums, over and over and over?

  53. MS Surface
    Thumb Up

    MS Edge is the best browser by far in my opinion...

    In particular on any MS Surface with build-in LTE or Windows 10 on ARM devices. Is not causing any problems with Modern Standby, starts instantly, runs very fast, excellent RAM management, never crashing, updating extensions in the background even in Modern Standby state. Amazing touch support. Where is exactly the opposite while trying Chrome or Opera, which are OK on my old desktop but struggle terribly or are completely unusable on the mentioned devices. Firefox is improving slowly with every new build.

    1. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: MS Edge is the best browser by far in my opinion...

      "In particular on any MS Surface"

      Perhaps, but that only matters if you're willing to buy and use a Surface.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: MS Edge is the best browser by far in my opinion...

      Thank you for joining The Register today to push this bit of propaganda

  54. MacroRodent Silver badge

    Time for the EU

    comission to slap them again, and Google too, if it offers similar FUD to people installing alternate browsers.

  55. Jou (Mxyzptlk)

    Missing functions...

    Windows Integrated Authentication, allowing easy single sign on, especially on your Intranet.

    Supported by Internet Explorer, Firefox and Chrome.

    But not Edge.

    WHAT?

  56. Howard Hanek Bronze badge
    Linux

    Of Course

    The software no one uses is always more secure.

  57. tallenglish

    Er, what about Cortana now

    Cortana insists on using Edge and Bing, you can disable it for standard search - but you need to do some ninja powershell to manage it.

    You cant uninstall edge without breaking windows 10.

    Microsoft seems to be making windows 10 into xbox along with all the adverts. I no longer play that thing due to the crud on it.

    Windows also now has loads of network drivers installed even if you dont need them (like lldp, qos, ipv6) and you cant uninstall them.

    And Skype for business still insists on stealing focus when it loads, to hell if your trying to login to your work vpn or not.

    I will give microsoft one thing, they know how to make the most anoying UI - this crap with Firefox and others just looks like scorched earth policy to me because their fancy browser is even crapper than the last.

  58. checktuo

    Is that a pirated copy of [insert pc game here] you're starting up ?

    Maybe you'd like to click this this link "go.microsft/blahblah" and buy the official version.

  59. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Seems like a massive overreaction to a "Preview" release feature. If you have signed up for Preview then you should expect all kinds of weird stuff.

  60. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Doesn't even work!

    My older system is a Dell Workstation. It still runs a 32bit memory @ 3.2gig with 4gig of memory. When I did the upgrade to Win 10 Edge worked sort-of OK, but the first Win10 update blew it out of the water. I tried to update it but it only updates using Edge (which doesn't work). Years ago I sent queries it Microsoft but no one replied (I guess they couldn't figure how it fix it).Edge does work fine on my 64bit laptop but I still don't use it....

  61. AIBailey

    Teacup, meet storm

    Jesus. It gives you an option to install your browser of choice anyway, and also has a link to prevent further messages like that appearing.

    Sounds to me like it's nothing more than a millennial taking to Twitter for his 15 minutes of fame.

  62. WeiredButWork

    Yes, I'm pretty sure :) Maybe IE only useful for some government sites

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