back to article Some of you really don't want Windows 10's April 2018 update on your rigs

The charge of the Windows 10 April 2018 Update continued into July with 84 per cent of lucky, lucky users seeing their desktops upgraded, according to AdDuplex. The rate at which the code was flung at PCs slowed a little, which was inevitable considering June's impressive (or alarming, depending on your point of view) 78 per …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    From experience...

    ...the bloody thing wouldn't install.

    Uninstalled a load of stuff (usual suspects like updating AV and anti-malware to Win 10 1803 compatible versions and then uninstalling them completely etc), uninstalled old software that I just don't use anymore in the hope that something would provide an easy fix, but nope, upgrade would attempt to install and fail.

    Updated drivers, ran disk checks, ran system checks (via sfc and dism) and eventually found an error log that said Windows Update was running out of memory. Scratched my head while wondering how....in the meantime, a few more failed installs and reboots.

    After much wailing and gnashing of teeth, it turns out that the auto-updated for my AMD GPU drivers was disabled.... I hadn't bothered checking them as I had seen them update many times over the life of the computer and thought they would be OK...

    Total time between first attempted patch install and success? About 4 weeks... I'm not going to suggest I know what I'm doing, but MS could certainly make the troubleshooting process easier....

    1. Martin

      Re: From experience...

      I can't install it on my machine either. In my case, it's simply that I only have a 32G SSD. I've tried adding an extra USB disk temporarily, but it still won't install.

      It starts by saying You need at least 10G free. After a bit of hard work, I manage to get 10G free, let it update for about three hours - and then it fails.

      And it always fails with a magic number - nothing useful. But when you look up the magic number, it goes to a Microsoft page which says "You need more disk space".

      It's quite clear that 32G is NOT enough to run Windows 10 - or at least, not enough to be able to upgrade it.

      And people wonder why I use Chromebooks and Linux rather than Windows boxes.

      (I have exactly ONE piece of software which I can't run on Wine and has no equivalent on Linux. That's all I need this box for.)

      1. Jason Hindle

        Re: From experience...

        I wouldn’t be brave enough to try upgrading a 32GB machine (and, quite frankly, a pox on the houses of those who would make and sell them). However, a USB stick or SD card should do the trick. I’ve found the Windows Update Troubleshooter a reliable, but sadly necessary, friend from time to time.

      2. Gene Cash Silver badge

        Re: From experience...

        > I have exactly ONE piece of software which I can't run on Wine and has no equivalent on Linux. That's all I need this box for.

        Does VirtualBox do the trick? It runs Suzuki Diagnostics System for me, which is a very nasty piece of kit, and even talks to the dongles properly over USB.

        1. Da Weezil

          Re: From experience...

          "Does VirtualBox do the trick? It runs Suzuki Diagnostics System for me, which is a very nasty piece of kit, and even talks to the dongles properly over USB."

          Hmmm I wonder if it would run VCDS which according to Ross-Tech wont run under anything but a pukka Windows install... (No virtual machines they claim)?

          I have that for the Skoda VRS and Seat FR in the household and is the sole reason for still having win7 on a lone laptop, everything else here is OSX or Linux Mint.

          1. quxinot

            Re: From experience...

            VCDS works on virtualbox. Ross-tech just won't support it officially. At least with the HEX-CAN interface, I have no experience with the wireless versions.

            I do recall that there was a trick involved, but couldn't tell you what that was even about. If you're comfortable with virtualbox, give it a shot!

            1. quxinot

              Re: From experience...

              Can't edit on mobile, so apologies for self-relplying here.

              VCDS runs on XP, much faster booting and lighter in a VM, which you'll probably not allow online other than for updates (which aren't necessary for VCDS unless you are trying to work on a new car not in your database.... in which case, just download the latest version and copy it locally to the VM instead of letting it go online itself).

              The other piece of software that I'd like to try in v-box is Eurodyne Maestro, but I haven't needed to go that route just yet (already using APR's software in the ECU, so major hardware changes are needed to justify the change).

          2. dansbar

            Re: From experience...

            I run VCDS in a w10 vmware virtual machine on a 2017 macbook pro and before that on a w7 VM on a 2008 unibody macbook pro. Works perfectly, vmware had no trouble identifying and passing the ross-tech USB cable to the VM.

            1. J27

              Re: From experience...

              Quite often software publishers will claim their software isn't compatible with something because they want to bother supporting it. That's been the case with several of my previous employers.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: From experience...

            Rosstech is right, it wont run PROPERLY.

            The last thing you want is a dodgy ff or a0 going in your ECU.

        2. Martin

          Re: From experience...

          Does VirtualBox do the trick?

          That would involve me having to actually find a Windows 10 installation, with presumably some sort of license that I'd have to pay for, wouldn't it? (I'd rather not do something actually illegal...)

    2. I3N
      Pint

      Re: From experience...

      Tried several things over a couple of days and still no luck ... watched Windows 10 back out of the upgrade every time ... changed course to do something more productive - digging ditches and laying Cu water lines and then some 2" PVC conduit to run the POE out to the outhouse ... updating my F77 code to f03

    3. TheVogon Silver badge

      Re: From experience...

      "16% have their heels firmly planted"

      Only because the damn thing wont install or they are out of diskspace, etc.

    4. DuncanLarge Bronze badge

      Re: From experience...

      "MS could certainly make the troubleshooting process easier"

      But that means telling the end user the details of the error, with error codes and the like, Instead of "Something went wrong, try again later".

      Madness

      :p

    5. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: From experience...

      MS could certainly make the troubleshooting process easier....

      Really, I can't imagine anything more helpful than a message that says "Windows Update encountered an unknown error: 8 hex digits".

      Though since those error codes are generally the well-known Windows exception IDs, you'd think someone at Microsoft could, er, update the Windows Update code so they wouldn't be "unknown".

      What with the useless error messages, Microsoft's refusal to display any useful information about any updates, the meaningless progress indicators, the glacially slow pace of installation, the multiple-phase install process (installing, and then when it starts shutdown more installing, and then after rebooting more installing), the reboot requirement, the reboot nagging... Windows Update has pretty much the worst UX imaginable for a modern OS update process. Just an astounding display of incompetence.

  2. Khaptain Silver badge

    Stop breaking stuff

    It seems as though every updates is perfectly executed to break something.

    The OEMs are definately not following at the same rate, todays adventure, the last updates f**k around with cheap intel G45 cards and high resolution ( 1920*1080, cough) no longer appears in the list of available options. Intel does not have native G45 drivers for Windows 10 but up until the latest batch things were working just fine...

    Result 2 hours spent doing nothing but desperately trying old drivers until one of them worked.

    Do updates and remain safe from security exploits : OK. When it breaks your damned system obviously you are safe because you cant get any work done anyway.... gggggrrrrrrr..

    And I see no reason that W7 runs fine on older equipement whereas W10 can be a dog to "keep" running correctly...

    1. tony72

      Re: Stop breaking stuff

      That's the problem with this model. In the good old days, between new major versions of windows, things were pretty stable, and you could deal with all the breakages all in one go when a new version dropped. But with the new rolling upgrades model, we are doomed to dealing with ongoing random breakages, without any continuous years of stability.

      My tale of woe from the April '18 update was that it broke USB device forwarding in NoMachine. After much head scratching and blaming NoMachine, it turned out that a new (or newly enabled-by-default) Connected Devices Platform Service was now hogging the port that NoMachine uses. Thanks Microsoft.

      1. Adelio

        Re: Stop breaking stuff

        Wifes lapton the WIFI stopped working. as I do not use it i thought the WIFI card stopped working, got a replacement that also did not work.

        I later found out microsft had rolled out another ***CKUP update that broke Hp lapton WIFI....

      2. JohnFen Silver badge

        Re: Stop breaking stuff

        Indeed, this is one of the larger reasons (but certainly not the only one) why I think that this "rapid release" fad is a terrible, terrible thing for all concerned.

      3. Noonoot

        Re: Stop breaking stuff

        "After much head scratching and blaming NoMachine, it turned out that a new (or newly enabled-by-default) Connected Devices Platform Service was now hogging the port that NoMachine uses. Thanks Microsoft."

        Microsoft does that on purpose when they see that a great software is doing something better than theirs.

    2. Steve the Cynic Silver badge

      Re: Stop breaking stuff

      high resolution ( 1920*1080, cough)

      I'm a teeny tiny bit torn about this juxtaposition. At home I have a pair of 4K screens, so my machine is running on a 7680x2160 desktop - thus, 1920x1080 is NOT high resolution.

      But I also remember my first PC, with a CGA-compatible graphics card that could do 640x200 in two colours or 320x200 in four.

      Or my first computer of any sort with pixel-addressable graphics, a TRS-80 Colour Computer, whose highest resolution was 256x192 in two colours.

      Thus, 1920x1080, regardless of colour depth(1), is monstrously high resolution.

      Hum. The march of Time does some odd things to our perceptions.

      (1) It's noteworthy that the CoCo's highest resolution mode, 256x192x2, consumed 6144 bytes of memory for the whole frame buffer, which is less than the 7680 consumed by just one row of pixels in a 1920x1080 24-bits-in-32 display.

      1. Khaptain Silver badge

        Re: Stop breaking stuff

        "1920x1080 is NOT high resolution."

        Hence the "cough" in the OP.. 1920*1080 is nothing more than a basic resolution today which just pissed me of because Intel isn't following suite with the updates.

        1. DropBear Silver badge

          Re: Stop breaking stuff

          "1920*1080 is nothing more than a basic resolution today"

          Clearly not so by the makers of every single operating system ever, anywhere: they all default to UI elements and fonts that are perfectly sized on a traditional 1024x768 or so, but require a typical 125-130% zoom by whatever means on the "basic" 1920x1080 - and HiDPI is useless because it only knows how to double pixels which is ludicrously untenable on FullHD; granted, that's not what HiDPI is for, but without it stuff is so tiny I have to glue the monitor to my face to make it usable (yes, I do wear glasses - funnily enough they seem to work just fine for everything else). I'll spare you the hilarity that ensues as soon as one tampers with either font sizes or discrete DPI settings (if any) under any OS - the UI is permanently on the verge of almost working / not clipping, but never really gets there...

      2. Martin an gof Silver badge

        Re: Stop breaking stuff

        (1) It's noteworthy that the CoCo's highest resolution mode, 256x192x2, consumed 6144 bytes of memory for the whole frame buffer, which is less than the 7680 consumed by just one row of pixels in a 1920x1080 24-bits-in-32 display.

        Or to put it another way, just one JPEG from my son's "bridge" camera, at around 7.5MB, would need six 1.44MB floppies to store it, or (for us ex-Acorn types) five 1.6MB floppies.

        Five! DIdn't Windows 3.1 come on three floppies (plus a couple for DOS)? My first proper desktop publisher fitted on a single 1.6MB floppy, with room left over for some fonts.

        </old fart>

        M.

        1. Updraft102 Silver badge

          Re: Stop breaking stuff

          DIdn't Windows 3.1 come on three floppies

          Four for 3.0 and seven for 3.1, I think.

          1. Danny 14 Silver badge

            Re: Stop breaking stuff

            most of our default screen res are 1366x768. thats about 300 i5 inspiron laptops.

            the desktops are 1280x1024 (19" 4:3 screens). ones with projectors extend desktops most of the time - people change to suit. I run a screen res script to default to extend and reset the res on reboot.

            1. dajames Silver badge

              Re: Stop breaking stuff

              the desktops are 1280x1024 (19" 4:3 screens).

              Methinks a little quick mental arithmetic will allow you to confirm that that is in fact 5:4 not 4:3.

              Was it really so long ago that this was THE standard desktop monitor resolution (but usually on 17" screens) that we have all forgotten?

              1. Martin an gof Silver badge

                Re: Stop breaking stuff

                1280x1024... Was it really so long ago that this was THE standard desktop monitor resolution

                Tell me about it. I have a whole bunch of 1280x1024 LCD monitors screwed into setwork and every time one fails it is a: difficult to find a replacement and b: almost impossible to find a replacement that fits easily into the same hole.

                I also have a whole load of 1024 x 768 and 1280 x 1024 projectors. While it is still possible to get the former - so long as you are happy with a mediocre-output "boardroom" projector, it is impossible to get the latter these days, so I'm in the ridiculous position of having to fit 1920 x 1200 projectors, usually with differently-specified lenses to the originals, and hoping that their "blacks" are good enough that no-one notices the two "black bars" either side of the 5:4 image in the middle.

                The museum was opened in 2005.

                </grump>

                M.

    3. NoneSuch
      Thumb Down

      Re: Stop breaking stuff

      "However, in the meantime, the rate at which Microsoft has been able to shovel code onto PCs remains undeniably impressive"

      <sarcasm> Yes, I love the XBox and Zune updates on my Enterprise licensed W10 Workstations. 2+ GB of space on every PC dedicated to absolute BS that has no purpose anywhere near a business. </sarcasm>

      1. MJI Silver badge

        Re: Stop breaking stuff

        >>XBox update

        What happens if you have a Playstation?

  3. EddieD

    Not offered it yet

    They're extremely reluctant to update (legally installed) enterprise versions on home machines - they normally come down about 2 months after everyone else gets theres.

    Not that I'm complaining - by the time I get it, it's normally been fixed from all the zero day bugs

  4. jarfil

    Use Linux...

    ...if you don't like Windows 10.

    Insisting on using Windows 7 is just silly.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Use Linux...

      If you have to run Windows then Windows 7 is by far the best solution.

      Not everyone can move to Linux at the drop of a hat. Most normal people would not have a clue about how to do it or how to safely transfer their data (pictures etc) to the new system.

      If you are so confident that 'just using Linux' is the solution then why not put a detailed guide of how to do it on the internet.

      I cut my teeth on some old and decidely cruddy BSD systems a few decades ago and moved to Linux when Slackware 1.1 came on the front cover of Computer Shopper.

      TBH, and I know that this will anger a lot here, moving to MacOS is a darn sight easier for most average users than going to Linux.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Use Linux...

        Most normal people would not have a clue

        Those types are probably content with Windows, or unaware of anything else. They've accepted that their computer will work against them, that's why they're flocking to phones that don't have "windows problems". Take the first post here for an example.

        Linux isn't designed for grandma.

        If someone who calls themselves a "technical person" and is unable to operate Linux, then they're lying about something.

        1. JDX Gold badge

          Re: Use Linux...

          For most users, if W10 didn't keep doing unscheduled updates I'm sure they'd love it. It has a more W7 style with some good bits of W8. People are wary of security slurping but if it doesn't stop them using the thing they'll be OK; an erratic power-crazed update system on the other hand is something even the most PC-ignorant user struggles with.

        2. DropBear Silver badge

          Re: Use Linux...

          "Linux isn't designed for grandma."

          You seem to have forgotten mentioning the two kinds of nagging issues that Linux comes bundled with free of charge: those that will merely eat up every single moment of your spare time from now on until you either give up or die if you attempt to fix them, and those that are for all practical purposes completely unfixable by you leaving you the option to give up or wait until you die, which _will_ happen before any of them would ever get fixed. Using Linux is a perpetual swim _against_ a current that is _much_ stronger than you, where the most you can hope for is not to drown immediately - and I say that as someone who hasn't given up trying to swim. Yet.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Use Linux...

            You seem to have forgotten mentioning the two kinds of nagging issues that Linux comes bundled with free of charge: those that will merely eat up every single moment of your spare time from now on until you either give up or die if you attempt to fix them

            Not my fault you can't use it right.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

              Wow! It's just like going on the internet asking for linux support....

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                Wow! It's just like going on the internet asking for MSWindows support....

                There, fixed that for ya.

                1. werdsmith Silver badge

                  Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                  Love all this butt hurt when linux gets called out.

                  I'm an admirer of linux too, but I really have to be honest and admit it's far from a smooth ride.

                  Wow! It's just like going on the internet asking for MSWindows support....

                  This nicely sums up the situation. Like a 6 year old saying "I know you are".

                  I'd love linux to do better in the world but the supercilious Jeff Albertson attitude and the total delusion is seriously holding it back.

                  If the linux world was friendly and not so condescending.

                  Anyway, I'm trying to get this new piece of hardware to work with my linux, so I'm off to attempt another kernel compilation. See you in a few hours.

                  1. Updraft102 Silver badge

                    Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                    I'd love linux to do better in the world but the supercilious Jeff Albertson attitude and the total delusion is seriously holding it back.

                    Worst. Pop. Culture. Reference. Ever.

                    1. werdsmith Silver badge

                      Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                      @Updraft102 said:

                      Worst. Pop. Culture. Reference. Ever.

                      LOL, I thought that might sting a bit, but in your case it really really shows.

                      It's still true though, no matter how much you don't like to hear it.

                      1. Updraft102 Silver badge

                        Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                        LOL, I thought that might sting a bit, but in your case it really really shows.

                        It's still true though, no matter how much you don't like to hear it.

                        I have no idea what you're talking about. In my case?

                        1. sabroni Silver badge

                          Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                          Look, the thing I'm familiar with I find much easier to work with. That crap that you use is rubbish, everytime I try to use it I fuck up.

                  2. Esme

                    Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                    @werdsmith - see there's another thing - yer average user won't be trying to get a new piece of hardware working with anything.

                    If they're a Windows user, it'll likely have Windows drivers, and either it'll just work, or it'll have the kinds of Windows problems that I'm sure you all know and love.

                    If they're trying Linux for the first time, and Linux doesn't yet support their hardware, they'll find it doesnt work, and simply go back to using Windows.

                    What they generally won't do (because they're not daft) is try to struggle way out of their depth with technical stuff they don't understand. They'll either call in a friend they think might be able to help, or just shrug and go back to Windows and put up with Windows-style problems.

                    However, it's fairly rare, in my experience, for yer average user that's fed up with Windows and willing to give Linux a try to have bleeding-edge kit - which means that Linux probably supports their hardware fine. So they try it, find it easier (in the sense of less problematic) to use than Windows, and carry on using it happily.

                    (Shrugs) if you want to use brand new hardware that doesn't yet have Linux drivers, yes, you;re going to be better off using it with Windows. And this is a surprise because..?

                    1. Danny 14 Silver badge

                      Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                      the really REALLY annoying thing about MS is that they already offer decent versions of their OS. Remeber Vista and the shitness? Look at server 2008, server 2008 was awesome. It had a start menu, proper search, no telemetry. And its still supported now. 2008r2 (windows 7) just just 2008 with more goodies.

                      windows 8? Apart from the stupid way to reboot or search from rdp server 2012 just worked. It had a fully functional and working backup, desktop and control panel.

                      8.1 made 2012r2: gone was the silly rdp swipe to edges andnit booted to desktop. yey.

                      come windows 10, server 2016 is perfectly usable. Sure the start menu is a bit 'flat' but thats the only real gripe. It is similar to LTSB in a way.

                      The server iterations show what CAN be done with the OS. MS choose not to offer those "skins" though.

                    2. Loud Speaker Bronze badge

                      Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                      If they're trying Linux for the first time, and Linux doesn't yet support their hardware,

                      Then get them to email me their time machine. its not 1999 any more.

                      These days its far more likely Windows doesn't support their hardware.

                    3. DuncanLarge Bronze badge

                      Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                      @ Esme

                      I work in IT as a systems analyst and do a bit of 1st line/3rd line support as needed.

                      I can see you are not really recently experienced with the true state of hardware found INSIDE laptops these days.

                      After reinstalling windows via the method of the manufacturer (not necessarily talking about big guys like Dell etc) you find that half the hardware wont work because the stuff they put inside is non-standard enough for windows (8.1 and 10 are used) to not locate a driver automatically via windows update.

                      So, you go and try to use the vendors driver disc that has ancient and possibly buggy drivers that caused you to reinstall in the first place as recommended you do so by kind windowsy support peeps you found in the internet. This disc, hopefully you did not throw away. Hopefully the vendor provided you with the disc and you dont need to download it.

                      Hopefully the disc contains just the drivers you need, and not ones for other laptops that throw up errors when you try to install them causing you to talk to the same nice windowsy peeps who will tell you to either reinstall/refresh windows again or to open up device manager (good luck finding that) and googling the PCI hardware ID of the device to locate a device driver.

                      A device driver that is not provided from the original manufacturer because they are chinese and only make the chip, not the PCB and rely of the laptop vendor to provide drivers, which they may not do so without proof of purchase (pc specialist, I'm looking at you) which you dont have any more leaving you t wonder why you didnt just buy that ASUS machine, as they have a driver for the same PCI hardware ID but it wont install because you are not using an ASUS.

                      If hardware dont work in Linux, its so much simpler! Its either not going to work for a while or never will. None of this faffing about trying to get something working again only to discover that it having worked at all the first time round was simply a miracle.

                      Imagine if your TV remote stopped working due to dead batteries. You go and get batteries for it to find that it uses a non-standard size that nobody stocks but some guy from china on ebay can get you one for more than the cost of a universal remote that stakes standard AA's. So you get the universal remote to find that it wont work with your TV but only with the previous model as the codes changed.

                      You discover that the codes were added later and can be uploaded to your remote!

                      So you download the update, run it to be told that there is an error. You google the error to find you need to install .Net 3.5 whoch requires running DISM from the command line and having a valid windows install disc...

                      I think I've made my point about the state of windows driver support vs linux. It can be a load of shit no matter which OS you are using. Your point is moot.

                    4. Martin an gof Silver badge

                      Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                      (Shrugs) if you want to use brand new hardware that doesn't yet have Linux drivers, yes, you;re going to be better off using it with Windows. And this is a surprise because..?

                      Define "brand new" though.

                      AMD's recent graphics cards (and by "recent" I mean "two years since launch" - to be specific I have a Polaris 10 card) still don't have HDMI audio in most Linux distributions, because AMD only managed to get that included in kernel 4.13 and many distributions, including the very latest OpenSuse, released at the end of May this year, are still using older kernels.

                      For that reason my machine which has the Polaris card in it had to be migrated from the pretty rock solid "Leap" distributions of OpenSuse to the usually ok, but when it occasionally breaks it's a biggie, "Tumbleweed" distribution, which keeps fairly up-to-date with the kernels.

                      In theory I could have installed the proprietary AMDGPU-PRO, but I tried that and failed several times. In Windows? Download the driver and run it. Job done.

                      M.

                  3. DuncanLarge Bronze badge

                    Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                    "If the linux world was friendly and not so condescending."

                    Seriously, show me one that is.

                    Go on. Find one. And no, you cant suggest a customer support line with paid for employees.

                    I dare you. Find a windows support forum that does not have any condescending remarks or attitudes to newbies coming along and asking "what does this button do"?

                    Find me one that does not have a single person saying RTFM or how about the classic: "Use the search to find the post that was posted years ago! I wont repeat myself".

              2. georgezilla

                Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                But if you ask stupid questions, you get stupid answers.

                And that's the type of questions that new Linux users usually ask when looking for help.

                Example:

                New Linux user: I just installed Linux and it's not working. Can you help me?

                NeckBeard: Sure. But can you give me more information? What doesn't work?

                New Linux user: Ummmmmmmm ........

                New Linux user: .......................... No.

                I don't know.

                It's just not working.

                NeckBeard: < heavy sigh > Ok.

                ... then it goes downhill from there.

                And usually ends with ....

                New Linux user: Eff Linux!!!!!! It's a piece of shit. Nothing works.

                So yes, in most cases that I've delt with, it has been .....

                ... It's "Not my fault you can't use it ... ".

                Because they can't.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Not my fault you can't use it right.

                  The Neckbeard guaranties Linux is as easy to use as Windows, and then blames the New Linux User because it isn't. THIS is the type of dick move that gives the Linux Community a bad name.

                  Linux is good at a great many things, but being a drop-in Windows replacement for the Teaming Masses is simply not of them, excepting perhaps for Neckbearded Grannies.

            2. dajames Silver badge

              Re: Use Linux...

              Not my fault you can't use it right.

              You raise an interesting point.

              It used to be the case that one of the big advantages of commercial (and usually Windows-based) software was that it was much better documented than FOSS, and so easier to learn to use.

              IME That's no longer the case. It's not that FOSS now has better documentation -- it doesn't. The fact is that hardly any software is now adequately documented -- and what documentation you do get is ungrammatical, misspelt, poorly laid-out, and lacking in proper indexing and cross-referencing. Commercial software is throwing away one of its clearest advantages.

          2. jelabarre59 Silver badge

            Re: Use Linux...

            I beg to differ. I have found myself spending **WAY** more time and effort fixing MSWindows issues than I do with Linux. Usually the only times I've fubarred Linux has been from trying something ultimately foolish. MSWin can fubar itself simply by booting up.

            1. DuncanLarge Bronze badge

              Re: Use Linux...

              "MSWin can fubar itself simply by booting up."

              I did a fresh install of WIn10.

              Windows update broke when installing updates. There was nothing else on the machine. I was simply patching it after a fresh install. No 3rd party drivers either, Just windows.

              Windows update broke itself after a fresh install. And after a second, third even. The forth install finally worked, because I too control and manually installed each update and rebooted each time.

              I dont see a normal user doing that!

          3. Craig100

            Re: Use Linux...

            Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. Linux Mint (for instance) is quick extremely easy to install. If you agree, it will even import all your Windows documents for you. As for support, there is loads of friendly community help out there. Nothing like the arrogant Microsoft technosphere. As it's open source, you CAN actually fix stuff if you have to. It's not all in proprietary, locked DLLs.

            I was a dyed-in-the-wool Windows fanboy from Win3.x to Vista when I totally lost faith with MS and moved to Ubuntu (and then to Mint). It was a move I had to think about seriously, ran both together for a month and Windows just died naturally. That was in 2009. 9 years later, I'm still happy with my decision. I'm a web dev and build Umbraco sites on .NET. I have to use a Windows VM in Virtual Box. Works absolutely fine. Try it, there's nothing to be afraid of (as long as you're not stuck in an Office365/Teams/Project/Skype for Business/Planner/SharePoint/etc/etc nightmare of a company ;)).

            1. Martin an gof Silver badge

              Re: Use Linux...

              Linux Mint (for instance) is quick extremely easy to install.

              It's only easy if you've done it before. Compared with a lot of Linuxes, Mint's installer is easy, but the key here is probably that most "users", never have to install Windows, MacOS, Android or iOS

              They buy a machine, it comes ready-installed with just about all the software they are ever likely to use (Office and Explorer) and that's that. Job Done.

              Until some update borks it, of course.

              With a few rare - and unlikely to be found by Joe Public - exceptions, the very first steps with Linux are the worst:

              • Take a working machine with Windows
              • download an ISO and work out how to burn it to a DVD or USB stick (not obvious for most users)
              • reboot and pray it starts up
              • wipe the existing installation and watch it for an hour while it "does something" (if you are unlucky it might ask you some questions about where to place the mount points - huh?)
              • reboot and hope it works

              Don't get me wrong, I've done this dozens of times, but I can see how most of my acquaintances wouldn't know where to start. Buy a machine, switch it on, it works, who cares what the heck "operating system" (whatever that is) it is running.

              A notable exception is probably the Raspberry Pi. Maybe a bit more unusual to get it plugged together (usually comes caseless) but even if you haven't bought a preloaded SD card, getting the thing running merely involves copying some files to a bog standard card, inserting into the Pi and switching on.

              M.

              1. DuncanLarge Bronze badge

                Re: Use Linux...

                Mostly agreed considering the point about windows being preinstalled.

                But:

                "download an ISO and work out how to burn it to a DVD"

                You right click on the ISO...

                Just pointing out that windows finally solved that issue!

          4. Esme

            Re: Use Linux...

            DropBear - what the heck are you doing? Not only have I been using Linux at home for years with next to no problems, I've introduced several others of my generation (some of whom are great-grandparents now!) to Linux, and they're getting on with it just fine. Web browsing - fine, emails - fine, displays piccies of the grandkids fine, and if they need to type and print letters occasionally, Libre Office lets them do that with no problems too. And they're HAPPY to be out from under the problems that Windows was causing them. Even the bulk of gamers of my generation are reasonably well catered for now, with Steam.

            I am utterly mystified by folk like you who claim Linux is some kind of unusable mess for the majority of folk when my experience is that so long as there isn't that one piece of software that ties them to using Windows, that Linux is much the better solution for non-IT-literate oldies.

            I've asked presumably IT-literate folks here who've made similar cliams about Linux not being ready for the masses what sorts of problems they've been having before, and thus far none has responded. Given that when I first got started with Linux it startled the hell out of one of my much more technical workmates who claimed they'd been having problems getting it to work, (they were IT/network support, I was a helldesker)

            One IT bod I knew who said they'd tried Linux but had hellacious problems with it had me in fits of laughter. It turned out that they had thought that the way to go about getting new software for Linux was the same as for Windows - ie: find something that does what you want out on the web, download it and install it - so they'd been trying to apply software from a mix of sources in varying packaging formats to their system, and, unsurprisingly, getting problems. They actually hadn't taken in that each distro has a repository of software usable on that distro. Their face when I talked them through using Synaptic was a picture. Indeed, explaining about the package manager is almost the only "training" I find I have to do when introducing newcomers to Linux. Most are utterly delighted that they can just select the program they want and have it be installed with no fuss, no reboots etc - and positively NO having to grab stuff from website and keeping your fingers crossed that what you've just downloaded isn't dodgy.

            Anyway - I don't doubt that you're experiencing problems, and you have my symnpathy - but I can't help but thinking that such problems as you're having probably arent likely to be those of yer average user.

            1. DuncanLarge Bronze badge

              Re: Use Linux...

              "Indeed, explaining about the package manager is almost the only "training" I find I have to do when introducing newcomers to Linux."

              I would expect you to have to do this less and less now seeing as package repositories on Linux pre-dated the "app store". Most users of phones / tablets and modern versions of windows and Mac would expect to find such a function. My young nephews certainly would think the idea of downloading software off the internet and running an installer as a novel way to do it!

          5. dajames Silver badge

            Not designed for Grandma

            Using Linux is a perpetual swim _against_ a current that is _much_ stronger than you ...

            I do feel that at times, yes ... but not as much as I used to with Windows.

            For the hypothetical Grandma of the title there probably isn't much difference, but for a techy like me the fact is that I actually can fix things in Linux, if I can be bothered to spend the effort, whereas Windows is just a black box full of broken parts.

            Of course ... usually I can't be bothered to try.

        3. Peter2 Silver badge

          Re: Use Linux...

          If someone who calls themselves a "technical person" and is unable to operate Linux, then they're lying about something.

          Sure, I can operate Linux.

          But the company I work for wants productivity software that reduces the need for a dozen people to do the job manually. That software only exists on Windows, ergo the company ends up running Windows desktops.

          Now, somebody is going to come and say "but you can write the software!" in a minute, so i'm going to relate a little story.

          I was chatting to the outgoing CEO of a large industry specific software house some while ago. By the by, he was one of the founders of his company (and the original coder in the really early days) and worked his way up to the top as the company expanded.

          He related to me a tale about a larger competitor of our firm; they'd decided to go their own way and write their own system. The project was cancelled in favour of buying off the shelf software from his company after 6 years and a very, very large sun written off on the systems development.

          He pointed out that his company could have been bought several times over for that expenditure. That is the stark reality of "oh, but you could develop the software...". For most companies it's far simpler (and ultimately cheaper) to buy off the shelf and let somebody else do the development.

          1. MJI Silver badge

            Re: Use Linux...

            Our current software has code going back around 30 years.

            A lot of code was ported twice. Took a decade to get a decent WIN32 version.

            Big systems take a while to write

          2. Walter Bishop Silver badge
            Linux

            Windows productivity software...

            @Peter2: "the company I work for wants productivity software that reduces the need for a dozen people to do the job manually. That software only exists on Windows"

            Balony, the Windows paradigm requires a human operator to work and the more 'computers' you have the more people you need to hire to work them. In my opinion Windows 'productivity software' does not reduce work-load but increases it, as you have to sit there and tell the computer exactly what to do. When I say 'tell' I do of course mean click-and-select on some drop-down widget.

        4. JohnFen Silver badge

          Re: Use Linux...

          "Those types are probably content with Windows"

          I'm not so sure. The majority of the non-techie people I know who moved to Windows 10 regret doing so.

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Use Linux...

            People calling out the Linux Emperor’s new clothes. Love it.

            ........”but my grandad was having all kinds of problems with windows, forever calling me asking for help until he finally hurled the computer out of his window......then I installed Linux Mint for him and 2 weeks later he became a lead developer at an aerospace company writing safety critical flight control software. And to think, before Linux he couldn’t even make a minor alteration to a batch script.”

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Use Linux...

              but my grandad was having all kinds of problems with windows

              Well, grandad should have been advised to get a Chromebook.

        5. MonkeyCee Silver badge

          Re: Use Linux...

          "Linux isn't designed for grandma."

          For my nan, it's been amazing. She never learnt anything for her windows box, and now she doesnt for her mint box. But now when someone tries to scam her, whether over the phone or charging two hundred quid to say "I dunno", she tells them it's not Apple or MS, and they go away.

          My wife does odd things, and kept on ending up knackering her windows box. She also doesn't like asking for help (or putting up with me sighing and saying "WTF where you trying to do?"). Stuck mint on her machine, and I've not had to fix it just yet.

          Most users are fine with linux, there seems to be more issues with browsers than the OS for most users.

          If I'm being paid for support, I don't care what OS you use. I can advise you that supporting Win 98 is going to be costly, but it's your money. If I'm doing it for free, then the easiest and cheapest option it is. Which is linux.

      2. georgezilla

        Re: Use Linux...

        " ... moving to MacOS is a darn sight easier for most average users ... "

        Only because you can buy OS X preinstalled.

        Linux preinstalled on hardware?

        Then I don't know if that still holds true.

        For most the only way to get Linux is to install it yourself. How well would OS X go over to them if they had to try to install it like Linux? My guess it that they would bitch about OS X as much as they do Linux.

        But then again ......

        ... would it be any different if they had to install Windows 10 from scratch?

        After all most users are just "average users".

        <snark> And they can't find their asses with both hands. </snark>

      3. TVU Silver badge

        Re: Use Linux...

        I did advise a small business recently to stick with Windows 7 and not "upgrade" to Windows 10 when one of their computers died because of all this Win 10 updates mess. I do feel sorry for all the home and business users of Windows 7 because support for that operating system will end in spring 2020 which isn't that far away now.

        The only advice I can give when that happens is to consider upgrading to Win 8.1 with Start8, keep a Win 7 machine permanently offline and continue to use it, use Win 7 inside a virtual machine on another operating system and take a look at macOS and Linux distributions that work out of the box like Mint Mate and Lite.

      4. simmonsm

        Re: Use Linux...

        The issue with moving to a Mac is the cost of the hardware, around double as far as I can gather.

      5. J27

        Re: Use Linux...

        Using Windows n-2 is not a permanent solution, at some point you'll have to knuckle under and get used to 10 or switch to something else.

        This has happened many times before and the holdouts all give up eventually.

        That being said, I'd say Windows 10 is a pretty good choice for your non-technical relatives. They'll barely notice the difference and all the things that annoy you like forced upgrades and heavy-handed antimalware policies will help them.

        Both of my parents (who sold insurance) are very happy with Windows 10. My father, so much so that he actually bought a Windows 10 tablet over an Android one (for some reason).

      6. DuncanLarge Bronze badge

        Re: Use Linux...

        "Not everyone can move to Linux at the drop of a hat. Most normal people would not have a clue about how to do it or how to safely transfer their data (pictures etc) to the new system."

        People move between Windows and Mac, Android and IOS everyday and seem to be able to do this. I seriously doubt moving to linux is that much more difficult as you can simply dump everything onto a 32 or 64 GB usb flash drive and copy it over using the same drag and drop techniques that everyone has used since they were a kid in the 90's onwards.

        "If you are so confident that 'just using Linux' is the solution then why not put a detailed guide of how to do it on the internet."

        Do you know how to use the internet? Or how to read? This has been done hundreds of times on the internet and in magazines over the last several decades. You can literally walk into a newsagent and pick it off the shelf. Today.

        Jesus you make it sound like moving from making toast under the grill to using a toaster is so difficult that nobody has ever managed it.

        "I cut my teeth on some old and decidely cruddy BSD systems a few decades ago and moved to Linux when Slackware 1.1 came on the front cover of Computer Shopper."

        Ah so thats the problem here. You last used linux like 20 years ago. Perhaps you should try it again. In fact, why dont you put your foot where your mouth is and try those guides on installing it off the shelf? There are only 2 things that people need to make sure they have done today to solve any issues:

        1. Have a backup of your data. This is dead easy and has been for decades. Only people dont do it.

        2. Have the ability to reinstall the original OS from scratch. Again, this has been stupidly easy for decades as provided by the manufacturer on the machine. The only issue is some manufacturers are crap and dont do a good job of this, which thus is not a fault of Linux on being difficult but the fault of the manufacturer being a dick.

    2. Gene Cash Silver badge

      Re: Use Linux...

      Heck, I use Debian and run Windows 7 in VirtualBox to run crapware... best of both worlds!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Use Linux...

      Yes because it's fun working out why the XServer has suddenly stopped, your dropped to command line to fix and user forums are full of people expecting you to compile kernels, handcraft drivers, download C++ source code and headers and compile stuff to fix it.. Linux is great but is not "standard non-IT" human ready no matter what you think and I am not being my whole families IT support.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Use Linux...

        This little sub-thread has perfectly illustrated the denial and superciliousness that is doing the damage to linux in the desktop world.

    4. The Central Scrutinizer

      Re: Use Linux...

      All the Linux hate almost seems to spring from jealously at how smooth an experience it is these days. Forced updates... ha! We choose when to update our OS. Rebootathons... non-existent. System crashes... what are they?

      Yes, Linux is different to Windows... thank goodness. A distro like Mint or Ubuntu provides all the GUI goodness one needs and you can be happy to use it just like that. IF you want to dig around in the guts then nothing is hidden from you. Hack away!

      Talk of having to compile to get anything working is pure FUD.

  5. BobChip
    Linux

    Why so traumatic?

    I cant help but wonder why MS updates always seem to cause so much grief. Linux (now on Mint 18) updates happen quickly and silently in the background, and so far - I have been a user for the last 6 years - have never borked anything.

    Suggestions?

    1. Jeroen Braamhaar
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Why so traumatic?

      Because MS insists on shoveling features they haven't fully tested (if at all) at their hapless victims (otherwise known as "users") in a desperate bid to prove their OS is ready for primetime.

      And rather than STOP and fix the mess they made last update (or any of the previous ones), they happily/blissfully move on to the new flavor of the day insisting that this time, they'll get it right!

      They say insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results ... making the institutional mental health of the Microsoft edifice questionable at best, mythical at worst. Take your pick.

      1. JDX Gold badge

        Re: Why so traumatic?

        >Because MS insists on shoveling features they haven't fully tested (if at all) at their hapless victims (otherwise known as "users") in a desperate bid to prove their OS is ready for primetime.

        MS do several orders of magnitude more testing than Linux distros do. They are obsessed with it.

        The reason MS updates get in the news more when they have issues is it affects 100X as many users and businesses. If Mint balls up a new version, you're not going to hear about it outside tech forums.

        1. ma1010 Silver badge
          Linux

          Re: Why so traumatic?

          @JDX

          The reason MS updates get in the news more when they have issues is it affects 100X as many users and businesses. If Mint balls up a new version, you're not going to hear about it outside tech forums.

          You're right about that. But the reason I love Linux is because I am in control of my personal computer. I decide what distro to use. I decide what programs I want installed and can remove any "bloatware" I don't like. I decide when and what updates get applied.

          MS, on the other hand, takes control away from the PC owner and installs whatever they like on "their" PC - which they are kind enough to let you use. And if some forced update borks your computer? Well, it sucks to be you! That's their attitude which their actions have made plain.

          After using MS for everything since DOS 2, I finally joined the Penguin camp after Win X. I had a fairly steep learning curve, but it was worth it to keep my personal computer as my personal computer and not Satya's.

          1. Unbelievable!

            Re: Why so traumatic?

            "MS, on the other hand, takes control away from the PC owner and installs whatever they like on "their" PC "

            i have to agree with that. MS is moving to Apple tactics. But mostly thanks to the 3/4 letter agencies scraping data and wanting access to EVEYBODIES computers (excepting the politicians making the rules of course ;) ).

            in light of that, Linux will also be prone to the same stuff that the top dog O/S are currently should it become the most popular.

            my only thought is "it's like car insurance: all computers are required, they all suck some way or another. It's the "users preference" which way they want to be rogered. (with or without lube, sir?)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Why so traumatic?

          If Mint balls up a new version

          The thing about Mint (and most other distros) is that not only did you make the choice to use it, you can also get an instant refund should you not be happy with it.

          Unlike Windows, where you're probably forced to use it, after paying for it (whether that be cash, privacy, or time).

        3. JohnFen Silver badge

          Re: Why so traumatic?

          "MS do several orders of magnitude more testing than Linux distros do."

          If this is actually true (which I seriously doubt), then their testing program needs to be scrapped and replaced with one that actually works.

    2. IsJustabloke Silver badge

      Re: Why so traumatic?

      TBH I've never really experienced any of the problems that many on here complain about. I think the only real problem I've had was the "Black Screen of Death" that was associated with an Intel video driver update delivered via windows update.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why so traumatic?

        Would you mind posting the exact hardware you're using, so the rest of us can also get some work done?

        1. BobChip
          Linux

          Re: Why so traumatic? Since you ask

          The system I am typing this on is a somewhat elderly - 4 years ish? - home build put together as follows :-

          Gigabyte motherboard

          Intel i5-2500 @ 3.3 Ghz quad core chip

          Nvidia GTX 550 Ti graphics card

          1Tb Western Digital system disc (Spinning tin - have not gone SSD yet)

          2Tb W.D. data hard drive (manual switch, not powered up on boot unless I think I will need to access it)

          24 Gb RAM (I use CAD and play about with virtual machines)

          all running Mint 18.3 Cinnamon 64 bit V3.6.7 on 4.15.0-29 generic kernel

          In other words, absolutely nothing special at all. Hope this helps.

    3. Pete4000uk

      Re: Why so traumatic?

      I was going to post the same about Debian.

      I think some of the moaning is because people are paying a lot of money for a lot of hassle and like to take it out on those who don't have to deal with a messed nappy every time the OS gets updated.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sleezy OS

    An advertising company is providing stats on the update of a version Windows?

    Makes you wonder who else knows the ins and outs of the Windows machines out there...

  7. Palpy

    Truthfully, Microsoft's update borking --

    -- is one of the major reasons I moved to Linux.

    I remember... on the road, sitting in a public library in a small town with a Vista laptop which, due to a Windows update, could no longer connect to any wireless network. Can't go online to get patches or drivers, can't research the problem.

    Never again. I haven't "learned Linux", just figured out how to use it well enough. If the above situation were to happen now with Siduction or Ubuntu, I now know enough to pop in one of the several distros I have on thumb drives, and zing -- I'm online to troubleshoot the main problem.

    Personal user case: I have a Win 10 machine now, but it's a grandpa box with no wireless and it never gets connected to the home network. Windows, air-gapped. It runs a few applications, and if I want something -- Paint.net, say -- then I download it onto my Siduction box, scan the download, and sneaker-net it over to the Windows machine.

    Obviously that's a specific way of using the system, and if you need a Windows box for online gaming or collaborative development work, then my approach no work so damn good.

    But think about getting a thumb-drive Linux (you can purchase a pre-loaded version pretty cheaply if you don't have the time to do it yourself). Think of it as tiny lifeboat which can't be sunk by Microsoft.

  8. Franco Silver badge

    I've had no issues with 1803 at home, what's ripping my mitten right now is the number of customisation options that have been changed since 1709. I'm in the middle of updating an SCCM task sequence for a client and most steps for setting default apps, removing store apps, customising layouts and adding corporate branding have changed with little to no notice or documentation.

    Oh, and getting rid of Cortana is like playing whack-a-mole.

    1. JohnFen Silver badge

      " getting rid of Cortana is like playing whack-a-mole."

      This is what makes me loathe the very existence of Cortana.

    2. Mr Han

      Oh, and getting rid of Cortana is like playing whack-a-mole.

      A couple of weeks ago my perfectly working 9 year old Win7 laptop died (damaged power supply fried something). I needed a working PC urgently but didn't want to rush in, so I bought an old refurbished 2011 desktop on Amazon for £150 to keep me going. I'd avoided Win10 until now, but this has Win10 for refurbished PCs installed.

      It's just taken me 2 weeks to get it almost back to how my Win7 box was running. Part of the process involved removing Cortana. I've got it down from 1.5GB RAM to 800MB on a 4GB sytem, I have Win10 using about half of a 50GB partition. It currently boots in roughly 20 - 25 seconds, down from about 50.

      If you want to remove Cortana then this is how:

      Spoof your browser to something other than Windows. You'll then be able to download the Windows 1803 .iso from the MS download site to your HDD. Download MSMG tools 8.7 from the link on MyDigitalLife:

      https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/msmg-toolkit.50572

      You need an account to read the post on page 1 which provides the link to the latest version.

      Back up your HDD, import the Windows .iso into MSMG and read the guide in the readme.txt for the version you've downloaded. You can then remove Defender, Cortana, Media Player, IE11, all store apps and a bunch of other bloat before you burn the .ISO to disc.

      Bear in mind it can be a bit ruthless on the advanced Windows section. I found leaving the Store App and Edge browser intact keeps things running well. Even if you just remove Cortana, Defender and all apps except Store then it's a big improvement.

  9. JDX Gold badge

    What were the changes?

    I had to try several times to get it to install on Parallels and when it did things looked different, but 5 minutes later I couldn't remember how such is my view of the OS (something to be ignored while you get work done).

    I know it was a big 'un but what (sarcasm aside) were the changes us users were supposed to enjoy?

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wamt to, can't, it's 2018

    Windows 10 downloaded and tried to install itself and failed.

    It tried again and failed.

    It tried again and failed.

    I downloaded a disgnostic app. It crashed.

    I looked in the install log files.

    75MB log files.

    Same problem as many users had, with WINDOWS VISTA ! Unanswered by MS of course.

    WHY CANNOT MICTOSOFT MAKE THEIR INSTALL PROCESS TELL US WHY IT DOES NOT COMPLETE FFS ?

    ( Let alone fix their crashing diagnostic app.)

    1. simmondp

      Re: Want to, can't, it's 2018

      Ditto;

      Got so fed up going round the Download / Update / Fail / Restore loop in the end I barred it from updating for 9 months so I could get some work done.

    2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: Wamt to, can't, it's 2018

      WHY CANNOT MICTOSOFT MAKE THEIR INSTALL PROCESS TELL US WHY IT DOES NOT COMPLETE FFS ?

      Sorry, but you have not paid the entry fee for the secret society that after 10 complicated initiation ceremonies you will get the secret keys as to why your installation/update crapped out yet again.

      Failure to keep up the fee payments will result in the secret keys being surgically removed from your person. /{sarcasm}

      Back on topic...

      Could it be that MS does not know the answers either????

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Windows updates

    Do Microsoft not test their Windows updates prior to sending them out for automatic update? Have had so many issues recently so reluctant to be a guinea pig for them.

    1. jelabarre59 Silver badge

      Re: Windows updates

      Do Microsoft not test their Windows updates prior to sending them out for automatic update?

      They work perfectly file on the pristine machines, sitting on a 10GB internal network down the hall from the test install server. Make them do their upgrade install testing from an abandoned ski lodge on My Pilchuck over the sort of DSL line that would be in those mountains. Oh, and no pizza until they have performed 10 successful upgrades (each).

      1. georgezilla

        Re: Windows updates

        " ... from an abandoned ski lodge on Mt. Pilchuck ... "

        Lovely mountain, Plichuck. Looking at it out my window right now.

  12. JohnFen Silver badge

    To be fair

    I don't really want any Windows updates on my rig.

  13. MJI Silver badge

    Still on 7 here

    And no intention of 10

  14. Triumphantape

    Why do we put up with it?

    Seriously, how many of you could move to OSX or Linux? Do you actually need Windows?

    1. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: Why do we put up with it?

      I moved all my personal machines to Linux about 15 years ago. It was one of the best decisions I ever made. However, I don't get to pick the OS I use at work, so I still have to put up with all the Windows 10 nastiness.

    2. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

      Re: Why do we put up with it?

      Many have not reached the pain threshold where they view switching completely away from Slurp is necessary however traumatic. Also, many have software they have bought and that investment would be scrapped when switching. Some of the software can be replaced by FOSS but not all. If there is Linux version or equivalent some money might need to be coughed up.

      When the majority will reach the point of ditching Bloat is hard to say but continually monthly update fiascoes will erode confidence. Even then some will be stuck with some version of Bloat as specialist software many only run a specific version of Bloat.

      1. Teiwaz Silver badge

        Re: Why do we put up with it?

        Also, many have software they have bought and that investment would be scrapped when switching

        Not necessarily, might be runnable in wine - I say might though.

        1. JohnFen Silver badge

          Re: Why do we put up with it?

          And all of that software could be run in WIndows running in a VM under Linux. It's not hard to do anymore, even for people with limited tech skills.

          Seriously, the need for legacy software stopped being a good reason to stick purely with Windows quite a long time ago.

          1. d3vy Silver badge

            Re: Why do we put up with it?

            "And all of that software could be run in WIndows running in a VM under Linux. It's not hard to do anymore, even for people with limited tech skills.

            Seriously, the need for legacy software stopped being a good reason to stick purely with Windows quite a long time ago."

            I always find these comments amusing... so your suggestion to alleviate some issues to windows is to run Linux AND Windows... What problem does that solve exactly?

            1. JohnFen Silver badge

              Re: Why do we put up with it?

              "What problem does that solve exactly?"

              It reduces the need to put up with Windows 10 to the bare minimum.

            2. georgezilla

              Re: Why do we put up with it?

              " .. What problem does that solve exactly? ... "

              ALL OF THEM?

              In my case anyway.

              Oh wait ........

              I don't run Windows at all. So there are no problems that need solving.

              Never mind.

      2. JohnFen Silver badge

        Re: Why do we put up with it?

        This is a good point. The reason that I abandoned Windows all those years ago was because Windows itself malfunctioned and scrambled nearly all the data I had on a hard drive. That exceeded my risk tolerance -- the one cardinal sin that any software can commit is to cause data loss, and Windows proved that it couldn't be trusted to meet even that minimal quality threshold.

        Being pushed away from Windows was an excellent thing in the long run, but I confess that if Windows didn't cause such a large amount of data loss, I'd probably still be using it today.

  15. herman Silver badge

    Windows is the VW Beetle of operating systems. It is always broken, always needs maintenance and everyone always tells you how wonderful it is.

    1. jelabarre59 Silver badge

      Windows is the VW Beetle of operating systems. It is always broken, always needs maintenance and everyone always tells you how wonderful it is.

      But the original VW Beetle could be readily fixed by your standard backyard mechanic (can't speak to the "New Beetle" models. Probably not). MSWindows can't even be fixed by the people who wrote it.

  16. HKmk23

    Windows 10 pro is absolute crap.

    I am currently re-installing Windows 7 Ultimate on all my machines as I am a sick and tired of updates that keep breaking things and destroying my network without asking! Microsoft, they are MY computers...keep your misbegotten and misguided fingers off.

  17. Big Al 23

    I'd be willing to bet...

    ...that 90% or more of Win 10 users would prefer to revert back to Win 7 after the privacy, security, Bugs, defective updates and other hassles associated with Win 10 have compromised their PCs and cost businesses untold financial losses.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    'the rate at which Microsoft has been able to shovel code onto PCs remains undeniably impressive'

    'The adoption rate for future Windows 10 updates'... Isn't that impressive when you have a 'cabal' of special interests working for you, from OEM's to Retail-outlets that rival the Pro-Israeli interests of the White-House etc.

    Lucky for those that can buy a Dell Laptop with Linux. Where I work / live there is zero choice. Its Win-10 or bust! That's not choice. And Apple is too pricey when your currency is a yoyo! If only Win7 was still an option.

    1. Curt Vile

      Re: 'the rate at which Microsoft has been able to shovel code onto PCs...

      But Windows 7 IS still an option. I have installed it on around 20 machines this past year, mostly PCs which had Windows 10 preinstalled.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        'Windows 7 IS still an option'

        Great, say how Curt Vile. You downloaded it off MS' site.

        You were able to find stores that still sell it??? Details pls...

  19. thomas k

    No problems but ...

    I didn't experience any problems, knock on wood, but the new, huge (and unresizable) Favorites panel in Edge so annoyed me that I switched to Opera. Couldn't be happier (even though Favorites are even more cumbersome). Funny thing is that I had finally started using Edge for everything, instead of IE11.

    1. tentimes

      Re: No problems but ...

      You are the only one! I have yet to see anyone else report no problems with the last lot of upgrades. I would love to know your hardware as I might copy it.

  20. David Roberts Silver badge
    Windows

    Linux and software installs and RPi

    Firstly let me get my defence in early and say that I am a long term Unix/Linux system administrator, though mainly out of practice now.

    I was looking for something that would play Amazon Prime Video (or whatever it is called) on my TV.

    Pi was the obvious choice. Some on line searching later I found a site with a description of how to install the software. It started with enabling ssh on the Pi then installing putty on the PC and then went on to describe adding repositories, configuring files, lots of command line stuff.

    Yes, I know how to do it all, however do I want to spend the time?

    One major weakness of Linux is the installing of software which isn't already in the default repositories. If it is in a repository then there are loads of GUI front ends which make it a simple search, select, click install. If not, a world of hurt awaits the inexpert user.

    With Windows there are packaging tools (such as InstallShield) where you download a file to your PC, run it, and it does all the hard stuff for you. Leaving aside security issues (a long and thorny subject) I can't see Linux becoming useable by the average naive user until third party software installs have the same one click approach as Windows software.

    Android gets round this by having an App store that everyone is forced to use. An approach attempted unsuccessfully by W10.

    1. dajames Silver badge

      Re: Linux and software installs and RPi

      With Windows there are packaging tools (such as InstallShield) where you download a file to your PC, run it, and it does all the hard stuff for you. Leaving aside security issues (a long and thorny subject) I can't see Linux becoming useable by the average naive user until third party software installs have the same one click approach as Windows software.

      Third-party software developers who don't provide their software in a format digestible by the standard Linux package managers aren't doing themselves any favours, I agree ... but please understand that when those developers do provide a package the install pretty-much is one-click.

      The difficulty is that different distros use different package manages (aptitude, rpm, yum, etc) so the third party developer has more work to do to cover all the distros ... and different hardware architectures (such as the Pi, since you bring it up) require their own packages.

      Building from source isn't a lot of fun, but at least it offers some hope that you can get the software to run on your own hardware, whatever that is.

      1. Martin an gof Silver badge

        Re: Linux and software installs and RPi

        The difficulty is that different distros use different package manages (aptitude, rpm, yum, etc)

        Is this what systems like Flatpak" are designed to solve?

        M.

  21. AbortRetryFail

    Reasons to use Windows

    I use Windows 7 on one of my PCs because

    a) I play PC games and

    b) some of my clients want me to write Windows applications with Visual Studio

    Pretty much everything else I do is on Ubuntu, and a lot of clients are these days wanting me to develop Linux applications so (b) is less important. But (a) isn't going away any time soon despite SteamOS, it seems.

    I'm kind of dreading Win7 becoming EOL because I really don't want the OS-as-a-service of Win10 but I guess I will have to bow to the inevitable. I can't say that I'm looking forward to it though.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Reasons to use Windows

      That and a few other things keep me on Windows as well (because, face it, gaming on Linux can be a hit-or-miss affair, even with Steam's help, and when media players can cause spontaneous reboots, I worry).

  22. John Munyard

    I was annoyed to find this wonderful "update" disabled some of the apps on my Windows10 PC, including the one which includes all the utilities for my motherboard... so now I can't adjust the fan profiles...

    Thank you Microsoft. I knew you'd look after me, you bastards.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Given past Windows 10 updates have broken my new HP laptop's webcam, speakers, print to PDF, output to external monitor amoungst other things I can see why you wouldn't want more updates.

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "as the OS finds its way onto more enterprise desktops and admins stick to longer-term servicing plans."

    There isn't a viable "longer term servicing plan". Not if you you need to run Office anyway, as going forwards Office won't run on LTSB.

  25. Frank N. Stein

    I I tried the update twice in May on my self built Windows 10 desktop, but my Machine refused it and restored back to 1709, where I still am, and everything runs fine without 1803. Disabled the Update Service for June and only in Late July, did I re-enable the update Service. It hasn't come and I don't think it will, which is fine. Meanwhile, my Windows 7 Lappy just hums along, despite being a rather old CF-74 Toughbook that works just fine and isn't compatible with Windows 10, which is fine with me.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    LOL!

    You guys still trying to run Windows? Too funny...

  27. Oh_bollocks

    only 16% installed it because

    Reckon that's how many made it past the endless loop of installation failures.

    How many man-years of productivity will be thrown in to feed MS's dumpster fire?

    Middle aged IT guy here

    I have enough to deal with at work, do not appreciate IT problems made for me AT HOME by a vendor with really dodgy updates.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    MSN.com--Slow to Open

    Ever since we installed Windows 10 April major update, we consistently have issues with msn.com either not opening at all as our 'home page', or opening 'very slowly'.

  29. dbtx Bronze badge
    Joke

    Winnicks Premiere Prole 2038?

    Don't care. All Software Sucks.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Winnicks Premiere Prole 2038?

      So why use it?

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Can't install

    We have an increasing number of MS Surfaces (annoyingly) and the latest update bricks them, so can't be installed even if we wanted it.

    TBH I'm fed up trying to manage Windows 10 - it repeatedly re-installs things I've uninstalled without so much as a by your leave - all the shit apps Micro$oft push out without asking, and shouldn't ever have made their way into the 'professional' version of an OS anyway.

    I seriously wish there was a practical alternative to MS in the SMB arena (and no, desktop Linux isn't an alternative, and neither is MacOS).

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Can't install

      Don't forget the gamers, especially the serious gamers who wouldn't touch a console with a 10-foot pole, and for which Linux is a pale imitation (which is why I've yet to see professional gaming circuits abandon Windows).

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