Here we go again
Mechanical mod, misused.
It's not an "e-cig" problem, just a Darwin Award case.
If someone was to tinker with his car's steering and got it wrong, would anyone accuse cars, or the idiot who made a mess of it?
A forensics report has reported the first known death from the use of electronic cigarettes after a Florida man was killed when his device exploded and drove itself into his cranium. Tallmadge D’Elia was vaping at home on May 5 when the vaping device, manufactured by Philippines-based Smok-E Mountain, exploded. An …
Well,, logic is one thing, lawyers are something else. There were a ton of lawsuits here in the States over people falling off ladders then suing the ladder company. The "victims" usually won even though it was their own fault or stupidity. So.... cue the lawyers up....
Mechanical mod, misused.
Mech mod. Period.
They're dangerous, one of the fundamental issues with vaping regulation missing the key points. We know what's dangerous, risky and what isn't and none of the regulations are addressing any of this.
Mech mods are dangerous, even for experienced users. People saying they're not are exactly the kind of people who are going to blow their own faces off; if you're saying it's not dangerous because I'm smart you're not half as smart as you think.
There's no reason for this to be a thing. Use the right battery chemistry and a *regulated* mod. AFAIK there's been no serious incidents where users have used regulated mods whereas all the incidents I've ever seen are directly related to mech mods. There's simply no reason for them to exist and certainly no reason for them to be sold, or legal. They're not cool, they're overpriced - and you're going to hurt yourself.
I recall one of the earliest instances of ecig user injury, well reported anyway. The guy had stripped his "pen" (note, not mod but store bought rubbish pen) and another one and attempted to mate them together to make it "better".
What on earth could have gone wrong???!
Mech mods are dangerous, even for experienced users.
I've been vaping for a couple of years (Innokin and Alien mod) but never heard of Mech Mods.
Looking at them, they sound like a perfect way to destroy your batteries, coils, lungs and (according to this news) brain. Who the hell though they were a good idea? I'm surprised they're legal even.
I was actually thinking about making one myself, but there were a few design points that might move it out from under that definition: fuses (both a quick-blow for shorts, and a lower rated slow-blow for stuck-on conditions), a VRM/MOSFET tuned by a pot (optional, possibly as a selectable module, and the thing that makes the definition questionable), and a self-resetting thermal breaker. I'm totally willing to forego the fun little project if it meant other people knocking off the silliness entirely. I also suspect that at least mandating basic thermal/short protection would go a long way in preventing this sort of thing.
Some of these devices have stupidly large batteries.
My suggestion is set a maximum capacity limit on the batteries, so that they have less energy to dump if they go wrong. Could still injure, as any rechargeable battery could, but less likely to kill.
But I realize that even alkaline AA cells are an explosion risk, and can get really hot when shorted, and bigclivedotcom should have used his "explosion containment pie dish" when just dismantling one of a certain discount supermarket's AA rechargeable battery, but instead ended up burning his bench!
That won't work. The fundamental problem with lithium batteries exploding is people abusing them well beyond their design limits and good sense. The battery documentation says never draw over 10 amps from a lithium battery.
Last time this subject came up, it was an explosion on a 200w device. That made me think "uh...?" since 200w from a battery is a bit high. So, lets' consider how high that is, shall we? A 18650 lithium battery runs at 3.7 volts. 2x 3.7V = 7.4V. So 200w / 7.4v = 27.02Amps
Now, personally I get nervous when pulling 27 amps through a 30 amp ring main in case somebody plugs in a fan heater or something and trips the breaker. Would you ever consider pulling 27 amps from lithium batteries at all, let alone unprotected cells? If you abuse a lithium cell to much, it blows burning hydrogen out of those little holes at the top of the battery, and the device design is supposed to vent this safely. How many designs actually do?
The problem is that people are dangerously ignorant of the reasons why electrical safety regulations exist, and both build and buy products that do not comply with any safety regulations to shave a few extra pennies off of the cost. I've personally taken apart a cheap CE marked "protected" 18650 battery I bought from eBay to check it was ok before using it in a project, only to discover that it was actually a used laptop battery cell with a bit of cardboard where the protection circuitry was supposed to be.
I've personally taken apart a cheap CE marked "protected" 18650 battery I bought from eBay to check it was ok before using it in a project, only to discover that it was actually a used laptop battery cell with a bit of cardboard where the protection circuitry was supposed to be.
Sadly, this seems to be the norm for stuff off Ebay, AliExpress, Amazon Marketplace, and the like.
No manufacturer details, faked compliance/testing marks and dodgy construction and engineering.
If it's marked "China", don't trust any markings you see on it. I hate to generalize, but an awful lot of the cheap electronics coming out of China are not safe, reliable, or fit for purpose.
Spend a bit more, get something made by a company that will stand behind it.
Sadly, this seems to be the norm for stuff off Ebay, AliExpress, Amazon Marketplace, and the like.
Yep. I wouldn't mind so much if it was sold as an unprotected cell, but CE marking it and claiming it's protected with a bit of cardboard instead of protection circuitry?! That is obviously dangerous and immoral as hell.
Agreed with buying batteries and electronics from reputable companies, it's one thing I simply won't buy cheaply.
Where do you get something "made by a company that will stand behind it"? Likely the product of $US_company or $UK_company you refer to was also made in China. Unless you buy their products directly from them, who's to say that they aren't Chinese ripoffs that have the company's logo on them?
If you wanted a replacement battery for your iPhone or Samsung, would you buy an "official Apple" or "official Samsung" battery off eBay or Amazon? Potentially same problem there, despite the reassuring logo. You gotta buy directly from them to know what you are getting (and yeah, it isn't like Apple and especially Samsung batteries haven't had their issues, so even companies that try to do it right can't be perfect)
"Sadly, this seems to be the norm for stuff off Ebay, AliExpress, Amazon Marketplace, and the like."
I build robots and other battery-powered doohickeys as a hobby, and real-world experience has taught me to never buy lithium ion batteries from those places. Now I buy them directly from the manufacturer when possible, or from a reseller the manufacturer recommends if necessary.
Yes, they're more expensive that way -- but the batteries I get have several rare qualities. They're much less likely to catastrophically fail, and they're much more likely to actually be what they claim in terms of capacity and the existence of protection circuitry.
I'm also not convinced that they're actually more expensive, once you factor in that they require replacement much less often.
If someone is drawing 200W then they are most likely subohming, which means the coil could be as low as 0.1 ohms to 0.9ohms, trouble is some batteries arent capable off working below 1ohm.
These mechanical mods (changable batteries) dont have the same protections as inbuilt batteries and theres more chance of a fake, woth both the 18650 and the mod circuitry itself being faked.
This article is the first time Ive heard of a UL safety sticker, been vaping for 4 years now.
On the various chinese e-souks, there are loads of products for 'turbo charging' or otherwise customising one's vaping experience, including super vapourising coils and bigger Li-po batteries to extend sucking time.
No surprise really that some go wrong.
I can't say the idea of inhaling anti freeze appeals to me, I gave up cancer sticks in the '80s and now can't figure out why I ever wanted to inhale anything but decent air ( and that's hard enough to find).
Aaaand, once again, someone speaks without knowing the subject.
That "anti freeze" (PG) has been vaporized in hospitals, mind you, for its antiviral properties. Sure, this didn't stick, not because it was dangerous but because it was less efficient than believed.
As to the "anti freeze" part, it's indeed the only fluid with such properties that is allowed in freezers that contain food, because... drum roll... in case of a leak it's not dangerous for human health.
Please, educate yourself, you'll avoid a lot of embarrassment.
You can say "it's just water" or whatever this months tag line is that makes you feel happy about what you like to suck on but for me the only thing I need to have seen was the state of my dad's windscreen when I helped him out cleaning his car.. there was a sticky film of something clear that smelles suspiciously like his cape liquid which took acetone to remove properly covering the whole screen...
I wouldn't want that shit in my lungs any more than normal cigarette smoke.
"That young man, is what used to be referred to as "tar", your daddy is being very naughty and having a sneaky ciggy on his way to and from work!"
No, Tar isn't clear and doesn't smell like peanut butter.
Unless you honestly think that the flavourings are made of magic pixie water you have to know that there is more going into your lungs than just water.
Im happy to accept that vapping is safer than smoking, but in the grand scheme of things isnt it just as stupid?
I quite enjoy shitting down the gullet of the "it's just water!" crowd. Unless they're legitimately into e.g. ultrasonic water misters. I'm well aware of the hazards and effects, both first party and otherwise (as far as they can be known). The amount of nicotine being exhaled is still noteworthy, and the water content negligible, so folks need to exercise discretion when vaping indoors and especially around others. Inconsiderate loljustwaterbrovapers need to take it down a peg. There are ~4 vapers in my office of ~20 folks, and not one of them billows clouds of stinky funk.
"The amount of nicotine being exhaled is still noteworthy"
Yes, but the amount of nicotine that can be absorbed is much, much lower. Unlike cigarettes (which include chemicals to dramatically increase nicotine absorption), vaping is an incredibly inefficient way to get nicotine into your system. There aren't a ton of studies on the "second hand" effects yet, but all of the ones so far indicate that the second hand absorption, even in fog-heavy environments, is negligible as a result.
Those "heavy cloud" vapers are doing that intentionally for show. Lots of vapers choose their gear, juice, and technique to keep the clouds to a minimum. Fortunately, as vaping moves more into the mainstream, we are getting fewer of the rude "as much fog as possible" sorts.
"I can't say the idea of inhaling anti freeze appeals to me"
There's no anti-freeze in there. You're talking about propylene glycol, which is in all sorts of things you eat, drink, and inhale, and has a long enough track record that it can be considered generally safe.
It is also put in antifreeze -- but the reason it's there is to make antifreeze safer. It replaced a highly toxic ingredient that used to be used.
Yup, PG is quite literally the 'non-toxic' part of non-toxic antifreeze.
But because people remember stories of dogs dying after licking up (ethyl glycol, not prop glycol based) antifreeze, they seem to think they're being clever when they drag that one out.
It's one of my Very Favourite ways of dismissing someone from an argument on the matter, as this is something that is very easy to fact check, but it sounds - from an uneducated standpoint - so good, doesn't it?
Shame that it's so far off base that it borders on 'not even wrong' territory then, eh?
Indeed, how long before we discover that vaping is as bad (or worse) as cigarettes...
The finest minds in public health have been trying to find notable harm to users - other than mild irritation, niccy rush, etc - for a decade and haven't found squat, mate. The user base is in the tens of millions and has been for years, and they haven't complained of any problems, either - and they're the ones most likely to be pissed if they get something nasty.
That, and as noted, basic toxicology, and not only that, just plain physics, denote that it's chemically and physically impossible for e-cigs to be as harmful as regular cigs in normal use. It's just not a thing that can happen, because damned near all the harm from smoking comes from the smoke. Something e-cigs don't create because there's no combustion.
This is very basic stuff. The Royal College of Physicians reckon that even with everything at worst case scenario outlooks, e-cigs could never be more than 5% the harm of lit tobacco (And that takes into account house fires second hand inhalation, etc, too), and it's likely to be far less.
Actual epidemiologists with extended experience of tobacco harm would argue that you shouldn't even compare the two, as it gives a false equivelance - it's like comparing an AK47 round being fired at someone, an AR15 round being fired at someone, and Munition X (a small stone being thrown by a toddler at someone, which they won't mention) - the comparison gives the impression to the layman that Munition X could be deadly, I mean otherwise, why'd they include it in the test....?
Anyway, enough prattling, I've got servers to kick violently up the 'arris.
Steven "Yeah, been there, done that" R
"Indeed, how long before we discover that vaping is as bad (or worse) as cigarettes..."
If Big Tobacco could throw a million pounds at a proper qualified medical study which found a serious problem with vaping they would do it in an instant, it would just come out of petty cash.
But they haven't.
Instead people rely on a series of (very) bad science and tabloid journalism.
I'll contest the notion (that they would attempt to attack it, provided the current regulatory environment on burning tobaccos, also not trying to suggest that this was specifically your own sentiment) by noting that they're actually making decent inroads in the vaping department themselves. There's money to be made, especially with increasing constraints on the burning-tobacco market. Most gas stations in my general area have at least one brand, and most of those have several to choose from, both one-time-use and with replaceable, pre-filled cartridges. I do not mind such competition, provided they don't make any overly hostile moves towards the more DIY markets, but I don't hold much hope for that overall. R.J. Reynolds even pulled a full recall on their own Vuse Vibe pens in the past couple of months, after some reports of overheating batteries came to light... not even any injuries or property destruction. It seems to me that they wish to at least appear to be on the side of good.
"...how long before we discover that vaping is as bad (or worse) as cigarettes..."
We will "discover" this shortly after we discover that the earth is, in fact, actually flat.
In the 10 or so years that vaping has been "a thing," considering the multiple millions of people who have switched from tobacco to vapor, there have been, at least, (and this is my own estimation using only common sense) several hundred thousand people, per year, in the US alone, who have NOT died from tobacco related illness.
We all know that PG and VG vapor, even including nicotine, is NOT a carcinogen. We know this from many, many credible sources, including the US CDC. We know that vaping is a THOUSAND times less toxic than smoking tobacco. We also know, again from many credible sources, that tobacco smoke contains, literally, dozens of toxic substances.
The anti-vapors, to me, are in the same category as the anti-vaxxers. Ignorant, ill-informed, self-righteous morons--except that the anti-vapors have a huge, powerful, greedy, hateful, self-interested group behind them: The Tobacco Industry. Every time an infant swallows a vapor pen, or a battery explodes, they will see to it that it makes national and world-wide headline news.
Don't be fooled by this. The health-care cost for treating all the health-related issues surrounding tobacco comes RIGHT OUT OF ---YOUR--- POCKET.
Every ingredient in vape juice has a rather extensive (as in 100 years or more) history of inhalation and has been studied pretty extensively, with one exception: the flavorings. Food flavorings are used, which are tested for safety when ingesting, but not when inhaling.
If there's going to be an unexpected problem, it will be with the flavorings (and this has already occurred with certain flavorings, specifically the buttery ones). So, if you are concerned about the unknown and still want to vape, the general recommendation is to use unflavored juice.
Because your way of vaping is The One True Way, yes?
I vape at 15 watts on a DNA40 box mod and a modified Kayfun 3.1ES. I agree that 20 watts is all we need - we being you and I. Why should everyone have to conform to our narrow definition, though? It's this kind of one-size-fits-all oversimplification and micromanagement that ruins everything.
Indeed, I know some people who hated the comparative harshness of 50/50 PG/VG liquids, but when given a cloud chucking tank that takes the heavier stuff and needs more power, pretty much binned their smokes overnight.
The choice available is why these devices work, and to ignore that is to miss the fundamental point of these devices.
Steven "has run the gamut from 2w to 250w and settled on 13.5, thanks" R
”...I know some people who hated the comparative harshness of 50/50 PG/VG liquids, but when given a cloud chucking tank that takes the heavier stuff and needs more power, pretty much binned their smokes overnight.”
That would be me. Trying to kick a 60 a day roll up habit with the thin vapour on offer even three years just didn’t do it for me. 120 odd watts, a couple of Uwell Crown tanks and some decent liquid got me off the fags for good last summer, and now I’m back down at 20 watts with a couple of Kayfun 5s. You can’t emphasise enough that if you don’t find vaping sufficiently satisfying, you just won’t take to it.
Trying to kick a 60 a day roll up habit with the thin vapour on offer even three years just didn’t do it for me. 120 odd watts, a couple of Uwell Crown tanks and some decent liquid got me off the fags for good last summer, and now I’m back down at 20 watts with a couple of Kayfun 5s. You can’t emphasise enough that if you don’t find vaping sufficiently satisfying, you just won’t take to it.
Firstly - how the hell did you have time to roll and smoke 60 a day?
dosent the satifying just come from the amount of nicotine in it or vp or whatever?
I am migrating at the moment, trying to find the right formula
Why did this just give me a flashback.. In the 70's my uncle used to be a Hare Krishna, he found a talent for rolling. Fast forward 25 years to my Nan's funeral, which somehow turned into a celebration, I saw first hand what experience truly meant, he was pumping out "happy" ones faster than a vending machine!
I was a young naive 18 years old, this was quite eye opening.. the illusion of my fuddy-duddy uncles was completely smashed and replaced with awe.
If you're going to regulate such a thing FWIW, keep it sensible, it has to be at least 150W. Minimum
No, if your doing to regulate such a thing then you follow the existing electrical safety rules on what's safe, not what people decide they'd like to keep.
A 18650 lithium battery is specced to provide an absolute "never exceed maximum" of 10 amps.
Assuming that your using 2 18650 batteries running at 3.7 volts in series that gives you 7.4 volts. 7.4 volts / 150 watts = 20.27 amps. That's 10.27 amps above the maximum that the battery should have drawn from it, and 4.7 amps away from the point that batteries explode at during testing.
The solution is for people to follow the existing electrical safety rules on the design and production of this sort of equipment, which for a two cell design in series at this voltage is about 80 watts according to the battery manufacturer. Want higher wattages? Double the voltage uses half the ampage with the same wattage perfectly safely, so either use more batteries or a transformer.
Different 18650s are rated to different constant current outputs - 10A is on the low end. Plenty are fine at 25A and above, although very few can manage a constant 30A (Sonys VCT range contain some).
However, that's constant draw - such as a cordless power drill, or angle grinder, being given a hot supper for a minute at a time, with five or six of those cells set up to provide 40 or 50A at around 8-12v, depending on the exact configuration.
In a vaping device, you rarely use them for more than a few seconds at a time - at higher wattages, even less.
This means you are into the pulsing range, and most cells can handle double their constant current when being pulsed, without any risk.
So a cell rated for 20A constant can typically handle a 40A pulse without risk. And in a mech mod with a fully charged cell, you're talking ~4v at 40A - ~150w depending on resistance of the coil. You can't do anything but pulse at that power level because your lungs can't maintain the airflow to stop the device from drying out/getting too hot/etc - so you take short, very fast, inhales.
If you have any doubt on this, bear in mind that if you were correct and all cells went pop as soon as they went past their rated max constant current draw, there would be hundreds of thousands of battery fires a year from e-cigs. We've seen hundreds in near a decade worldwide.
Real world evidence trumps internet hypothesis every time, I'm afraid.
Different 18650s are rated to different constant current outputs - 10A is on the low end.
Yeah, that's what people keep saying and they come out with all sorts of websites that say that, but so far every one has then backtracked or vanished when asked to produce the manufacturers info sheet of the battery with comments like, "well steve said it was ok on some web forum, so that's proof innit?".
Care to be the first person to prove me wrong? All I'd like to see is a manufacturers info sheet for a 30A rated 18650 battery and i'll concede the point.
Although even if you could produce the manufacturers info sheet then I'd still be pointing out that requiring people to use a specific higher rated battery of a standard size is daft, as the whole point of standard size batteries is that anything that fits can be used, and the fact that you physically can't put (for instance) an AAA battery in an application designed for AA is a safety measure designed to protect the end users. Deliberately buggering this when you know that most of the cells that would fit the slot could catch fire as a result is frankly idiotic.
All I'd like to see is a manufacturers info sheet for a 30A rated 18650 battery and i'll concede the point.
Here you go. That datasheet also includes the discharge current characteristics in pulse scenarios: this battery can handle up to 100A as long as the pulse lasts less than 6.7 seconds.
limit vaping to 20 watts
There's no issue with wattage. The problem is directly related to unregulated mods. You have an unreg mech mod and you short it it's going to be whatever the battery chucks out in a short. THAT is the problem. If you're going to regulate such a thing FWIW, keep it sensible, it has to be at least 150W. Minimum.Again the problem here isn't a regulated mod; it's unregulated ones.
There's no issue with wattage
There is, when you want to make a hand-portable, pocketable device that can generate (and dissipate) 200W.
A cordless soldering iron would rarely exceed a few tens of watts, for example.
We have a cordless lawnmower. The battery pack has about 10 18650's in it, and gives you about 15 minutes of mowing. Assuming the cells are the usual 2Ah, that's 8A draw. To keep the cells stable, it's arranged that there is an air duct that sucks air through the battery pack while the motor is running, to keep the cells cool. Similarly, on charging, a fan in the charger does the same thing.
A 200W vape device, with 2 18650's in it will draw 27A per cell. Anyone who knows anything about Li cells would wince at the thought! Never mind that the cell is not being monitored or cooled.
Besides, what the hell does it do with 200W?
Picture of cell supplying 27A ------->
Upon reflection, the headline is a bit shit too, given that someone is quite recently dead in rather unpleasant circumstances.
I know El Reg tends to sail close to the wind, but I'm pretty sure I'd be as narked if a similar headline had appeared on a story about an automated car death - so I'd like to think it's not just because it's my hobby being poked, etc.
Upon reflection, the headline is a bit shit too, given that someone is quite recently dead in rather unpleasant circumstances.
Yet they missed the one where matey tried to make his own "oil" and ended up with lipoid pneumonia - which was again blamed on the vaping community when, in reality, it was just another sodding numpty with zero clue. There's enough information out there on the constituent parts of a safe e-liquid that even a mouth-breather with ten left thumbs could do it.
As for drug addiction, @lost all faith, the first time a vaper is caught mugging an old lady for the £10 of her pension she has left or, indeed, doing anything else harmful to others or self-destructive to buy some e-liquid, I'll admit there's an overlap. Until such time, mind your own sodding business.
"Would anyone talking about vaping 'carrying on the addiction' care to actually define addiction, and apply that to e-cigs?"
Absolutely, it's the physical addiction to nicotine. The cravings do subside after using an ecig so you are absorbing some nicotine. 40 roll ups a day is mighty impressive though.
"As for drug addiction, @lost all faith, the first time a vaper is caught mugging an old lady for the £10"
There are differing levels of addiction. For cigarette smokers they aren't likely to mug an old lady for a tenner, but they can be very very unreasonable when they haven't smoked, and they can't quite put a finger on why.
Then they smoke and they are suddenly reasonable again. The harm here is to relationships in the immediate term, but nicotine long term can also be damaging, even without smoke;
(Incidentally the same source as above!)
I guess this is similar to the original problem with smoking, "well it won't kill me immediately so why bother about the harm, I'll just enjoy it and quit later".
It can be said that people get unreasonable when they are hungry too, but that isn't the same because everyone needs food to survive. No one needs nicotine to survive. Non smokers don't feel better for having smoked, they never get that weird feeling that something is missing and they can't be satisified until that missing thing is fulfilled.
Would anyone (Aaron Eckhart excepted) ever encourage their children to start vaping and/or smoking?
Absolutely, it's the physical addiction to nicotine
No, you're just repeating a statement, not making a definition.
Also, an article from an Indian journal (who have banned vaping and other THR) with an impact rating of just over 1.
That sounds like a reliable source, given that literally no-one else in the scientific world, outside of cranks and prohibitionists, believe that nicotine, in the doses delivered through any consumer product outside of combusted methods, is carcinogenic or notably any more harmful that, say, caffeine.
Hell, even IARC don't think it causes cancer, and they think pretty much everything causes cancer.....
Concentrating on nicotine and addiction ignores the fact that cigarette smokers are dying right fucking now when there is no need for them to do so, and whining about "addiction" is a moral position that, in the absence of notable harm to the end user, is a pricks game and a great example of perfect being the enemy of good enough.
No-one gives a toss about caffiene use, and with the correct delivery method - a non-combustible one - no-one should give a toss about nicotine use either.
"No-one gives a toss about caffiene use, and with the correct delivery method - a non-combustible one - no-one should give a toss about nicotine use either."
You know, I can't say I've ever actually considered whether nicotine is beneficial on it's own, to often nicotine = tobacco = bad things.
A quick google search does show some benefits, do they out weigh the crankiness some people experience during withdrawal?
I've not said that vaping is bad, it's definitely healthier than cigarettes, no question. But if the nicotine is only being used to cure the craving for the nicotine then surely it's a pointless exercise? The "cure" (for cravings) is only leading back to the "problem" once the cure has left the body.
Re withdrawal, I've had to do a couple of longish (three hours) train journeys, once when I smoked, and once when I used e-cigs - and forgot to take my chosen vice on said journeys (obvs you couldn't smoke on trains at this point).
When I smoked, I was really very irritable - the typical image you'd expect of a fagless smoker. I immediately found a corner shop upon leaving and picked up some baccy.
When I had the e-cig, I just rolled my eyes at my own idiocy, and read the paper. Went to my destination, got some coffee, then took my time reading reviews of vape shops in the area and found one that stocked the device I liked, sauntered over and picked up the device and some liquid.
I definitely find that I can be without the e-cigs far longer, without really minding too much.
Anecdotal, but I find a lot of people I know who use these devices share that opinion, and I'm genuinely curious if users of heat-not-burn devices find the same thing...
Having recently quit (15 years of rollies) after reading the Allen Carr's easyway book I have to agree, e-cigs are just another way to ensure people are still hooked/get hooked on Nicotine and believe they cannot possibly live without it.
Those sweet yummy flavours are most certainly aimed at kids.
1 month in at the moment, was round at a friends house for an hour last night where they were all smoking and can't say I felt even the tiniest urge to ask for one.
In fact even now I can smell smoke coming in through the AC at the office, I don't dislike the smell, I did enjoy smoking, but I'm not inclined to nip to the garage for a pack of GV.
Cannot recommend that book enough.
Sweet yummy flavours aimed at kids?
Do me a lemon, and then mix in a small amount of biscuit and cream and finish it off with a crumble topping. Mmmmmmm that tastes nice. I am 44 and I can tell you it's not aimed at kids, it's aimed at people that don't want to smell like a toilet.
"it's aimed at people that don't want to smell like a toilet."
That was me. I stopped at work in an attempt to cut down and started noticing a lot more how much people who smoke stink.
I found not smoking at work was actually very easy, I was busy and didn't think about it.
I also realised that ecigs are simply kicking the can down the road. You're still an addict, and I didn't like that, the thought that at any point I might cave for a smoke. Heard many stories as well of people who tried a cig after months of ecigs and one cigarette didn't cut they, they had simply increased their addiction level because it was so much easier to vape a shit ton.
I can only assume that upping the power on your vaper is also upping your nicotine intake and thus your addiction level. When so many people are punting this as an aid to
quit free themselves from smoking that seems completely contradictory.
You may have already heard of and tried the Allen Carr method. If you haven't and really wish to kick the habit please give it a go. It's a tenner for the book and both myself and the partner have completely stopped after that.
You assume that all who vape still use nicotine.
I haven't had any nicotine in my juice for months, I started on massive amounts and gradually reduced that to zero. The addiction isn't always an active substance, sometimes the act itself can be.
As for upping the power - more power equals bigger clouds.
Who doesn't want big clouds of sweet smelling vapour. nincompoops that's who.
I'm not sure I've assumed anything, the only information I had was that you didn't want to smell like a toilet. As with everything in life there are exceptions to the rules.
Fair play to yourself for managing to remove the nicotine aspect from the habit. Clearly my anecdotal evidence isn't aimed at you now I'm aware you're not on the nicotine.
But I am fairly confident that most vapers are using nicotine and hopefully my musings can assist them.
Would anyone talking about vaping 'carrying on the addiction' care to actually define addiction, and apply that to e-cigs?
And then point out to me where the 'harm' part is, which is generally agreed to be a requirement for a definition of addiction - otherwise, it's just a habit.
Also, without tobacco smoke, nicotines ability to be addictive is questionable at best.
"Some e-cigarette users were dependent on nicotine-containing e-cigarettes, but these products were less addictive than tobacco cigarettes. E-cigarettes may be as or less addictive than nicotine gums, which themselves are not very addictive"
Steven "enjoys his little habit, which is why he no longer smokes 40 rollies a day" R
I'm 35, and my go to is a red berry mix with a menthol/cooling overtone (vampire vapes Attraction, should anyone care).
I often wonder why they bother claiming that they're marketing 'to the kids' - you know, kids who can't legally buy this stuff and who likely can't afford it either, when theres a vaaaaast market of people who are willing to pay £10/day or more for their fix.
I'm pretty sure i know which ones I'd be marketing to, and suffice to say, it's the ones who have the money and are already spending it on a competing product that I have a better alternative to.
Steven "Won't someboooody theeeenk of theeeee cheeeeeldreeeeen" R
"While D’Elia's death is a first, injuries from electronic cigarettes are surprisingly common."
The article goes on to provide numbers showing that fatal car accidents are _thousands_ of times more common than non-fatal vaping injuries.
Why do "journalists" have this irresistible urge to inject opinion-enriched, highly contestable words into their sentences?
E-Cig deaths appear to have caught up with the number of known (human) deaths from meteorites! Also death by impalement from beach umbrella caught in a gust. Also the number of known deaths caused by an allergic reaction to having sex with a German Shepherd (the dog, not an actual Shepherd from Germany, I guess Shepherds in Germany are non-toxic).
Very soon it'll catch up to the number of deaths caused by autonomous driving (getting hit by a self driving car or being in a car and using "auto-pilot")
Very soon it'll catch up to the number of deaths caused by autonomous driving (getting hit by a self driving car or being in a car and using "auto-pilot")
You should split those up - they are two very different categories. One is computer controlled driving, the other is person controlled - they should be in control at all times.
It's caught up to the former, but not the latter.
A report last year by the US Federal Emergency Management Agency found that between January 2009 and December 31, 2016 there were 195 incidents where vape pens overheated or exploded, leading to 133 acute injuries to users, 38 or which were described as "severe."
That's in all of the US (as far as i'm aware - I don't think it was worldwide) over a span of eight years.
Lets just have a look at how smoking compares, given that's the direct habitual comparative - almost no-one who vapes didn't smoke at some point in the past....
In the last five years, there have been an average of 22 fires every week linked to smoking. Since 2013/14, there have been 5,978 fires in London linked to smoking, 416 people have been injured and a total of 76 people have died.
I hope that provides some context, given that's in half the time frame, and only in London.
Relative risk is relative. It's sad that someone has died as a result of these, but mech mods are specialist devices, with a passable analogy being like them not being a motorcycle, but a specialist, track weapon, non-road legal motorbike with no dials, lights, ABS or anti-wheelie and a whopping supercharger atop a litre engine so that it's pushing greater than 1000bhp/ton.
That is, you need to show absolute respect for the laws of physics before messing with one, or you'll likely Have A Very Bad Day.
I have no problem with mech mods. I have a problem with people who sell them without checking if the end user knows Ohms Law and how and where to buy solid, genuine cells, however. They make the rest of us - who just want to not smoke in an enjoyable way - look bad.
In the same way that you don't just walk into a Yamaha dealer and buy a Kawasaki Ninja H2R without the dealer being pretty fucking sure you know what you're doing, because they don't to be in the national press if you smear yourself down two thirds of the Craner Curves at Donnington slowly decelerating from 150mph on your face.
>In the same way that you don't just walk into a Yamaha dealer and buy a Kawasaki Ninja H2R without...<
Wouldn't you go to a Kawasaki dealer instead? Also, the H2R was limited production and not street-legal (at least here). But any 1000cc sportbike should comfortably clear 150mph, so the rest stands up nicely.
I hadn't heard of anyone being even injured by sucking R2-D2's cock before, let alone actually killed. So "surprisingly" is at least the right adjective. I'm not sure what word you could use in place of "common" without it sounding like you mean it happens a lot, though. "Frequent" and "often" both have that implication when combined with a hyperbolic.
(Sherlock, because there is detection to be done and this is a two-cartridge problem.)
"Why do "journalists" have this irresistible urge to inject opinion-enriched, highly contestable words into their sentences?"
Because decades ago journalism started its descent into orienting less on reporting the facts and more on trying to change the world. Today, the line between reporting and editorializing has been blurred to the point of near imperceptibility. Widespread charges of "fake news" from all sides is a symptom of this.
Ironically, I don't really lump "El Reg" into the camp of journalism ne'er-do-wells. They proudly wear their advocacy on their sleeves for all to see.
Yes, the battery probably burst. But the device containing it certainly didn't have adequate vent holes that every device containing such batteries should have to make sure that if the battery bursts, it's not a bomb.
That's the issue more than the battery.
This has been labelled 'venting with flame' on a number of radio control and flashlight interest groups, and it's been fairly well documented among those groups of hobbyists. If there is no 'vent' in your e-cig, torch or other device, then you essentially have a pipe bomb.
Not such a problem if it goes wrong in an RC boat 50 metres across a pond. It's a bigger deal if you're carrying said 'pipe bomb' around in your hand, and a much nastier problem if you stick it in your mouth.
Some of the cheap, rip-off 18650 units I've seen from the far east are outrageous. Take care to buy good batteries, and charge them properly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzzfzGJpUS8
There was a FIRE at the site, too. Fires are an emergency. That's why FEMA was involved (the E in FEMA).
Uh, no. The governor of the state in which the disaster occurs must declare a state of emergency and ask the president for help before FEMA gets involved.
House fire, no. Volcano eruption, yes.
I'd just read Thalmadge's obituary when I wrote my post so, although I can appreciate the humorous anology with exploding Cuban cigars, I didn't feel the headline was in good taste. However, when I was teenager I know I would have reacted just as insensitively, if not more so.
Similarily, after reading today's headlines about the Texas highschool shooter, I also wouldn't have found a headline such as 'Texas
Chainsaw Highschool Masacre' in good taste either.
...While D’Elia's death is a first, injuries from electronic cigarettes are surprisingly common....
While D’Elia's death is a first, injuries from electronic cigarettes are sought after and reported in a slavering fashion by journalists everywhere in an effort to start a witchhunt.
There. Fixed that for you...
injuries from electronic cigarettes are sought after and reported in a slavering fashion by journalists everywhere in an effort to start a witchhunt
Too true. I was listening to the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation's World Service earlier, and this once noble organisation, previously famed for its impartiality and global focus on the important was offering breathy reporting about the "unknown dangers" of e-cigs complete with "experts" prattling on about the risks and need for regulation. I suppose it makes a change from the same organisation's tedious prattle about gender-fluidity and similar topics only of importance to Hampstead socialists.
You know, there's an idea: caffeine vaping! I should totally try that. Thanks for the suggestion!
(Just kidding. Vaping tastes ... odd.)
On a more serious note, having tried vaping, I gave up on it, gave up on real cigs, and went to good old pipe smoking. At least that tastes like something I want. Goes great with a morning coffee too. We all have to die of something, might as well be something we enjoyed.
I love the smell of Latakia in the morning! I cleaved to the pipe as well in my early twenties as a backpacker (trail name - Freight Train. Guess why.) Works wonders repelling black flies and mosquitoes. Add more Latakia, and it'll repel most people, too.
I wonder if vape liquid scents attract black bears?
... and I have to hold my hand up and declare I was a caffeine addict. I guess many people are, but never go cold turkey to find out. I found out when I bought a tooth whitening kit, thought I should give tea, coffee, and red wine a miss while I was rectifying things. So I stopped sloshing coffe from my percolator etc, and after three days, I had a headache. Couldn't take painkillers, as many contain caffeine. A mate had been through it, and said it would last for a few days, and it did. Now I limit myself to two cups a day, mornings only, never after midday.
I told a colleague about my experience, and she's had similar, but worse. She's got ill, threw up quite a bit, and got massive headaches, and her GP thought it could be Meningitis at first. Turns out if was food poisoning,and because all she could keep down was sips of water, added caffeine withdrawal.
... if we added up everyone hurt or killed by vaping, even those attempting the most cackhanded of mods, if those inuries and deatsh would have reached the total number for a single second of cigarette smoking. I'd bet good money the death toll per minute from cigarettes exceeds the to date total from vaping.
I don't smoke, and I don't vape, but I have lost enough relatives to smoking that I wouldn't have had vaping been an alternative at the time.
That may be because when you smoke and people tell you its really bad for you and you're probably going to die, they're actually repeating scientifically verified facts. So you can't really get defensive can you?
Its slightly different when people are repeating bad things about vaping that they read in The Sun, who got it from a research paper "sponsored" by a tobacco company, that got shot down with real science almost instantly.
...they're actually repeating scientifically verified facts...
I tried once to verify it. All I could get were lots of official documents telling me it was bad, and lots of papers telling me that there was a correlation - many of them using very poor methodologies and seemingly cherry-picking their evidence.
So I suspect that these 'facts' are a lot less clear if you approach the subject with an open mind. The one thing that I did find out was that smoking is strongly correlated with surviving heart attacks, and researchers are embarrassed by this....
Had a battery short out in a mod (I guess people call them mods, but I had always assumed 'mod' referred explicitly to the unregulated 'mechanical' kind, but this was a regulated device), but this was exclusively due to my own neglect of the battery condition.
Inspecting the failed battery's sibling, it looks like the plastic wrap got chafed, split apart, and allowed the insulator ring to get pushed aside, resulting in the contact in the battery holder completing the circuit. Had it been pointing towards my face, I might've seen the spark/glowing metal before it was too late, but i'm generally glad I did not. The thing vented, sputtering caustic fun juices and flecks of burning material (which i assume were a combination of both the battery casing being melted from the short, as well as the now degenerating innards of the cell) in a show that was not unlike a standard bottle rocket motor in visuals, intensity, and duration.
In retrospect, I should've immediately exited the room and pitched it on the tile hallway, as there was nowhere safe to place the thing, so I wound up holding onto it in order to avoid a mattress/paper heap fire. My hands were burned fairly badly (all healed up just one month later, save for some dryness and sensitivity), as the gas jet was basically going through my index and middle fingers for the first ~2 seconds, and I eventually dropped it on the carpeted floor after having switched hands (only minor burns on that side). The battery popped out and rapidly melted its way into the carpet padding (cement foundation, fortunately), and ignited a sheet of paper that was nearby. Had to open a window with a handful of fingers looking not unlike barbecue sausage links, but in < 2 minutes, fire extinguished and room ventilating. Then off to the ER for a good looking over.
All told, damage entailed 7 fingers burned, 2 were fairly bad (and a third got a bandage stuck in it due to falling asleep with it pinned), ~1 sq ft of carpet ruined, near a corner, burnt people grease all over the smoke detectors and doors (since cleaned), a discharged dry chem extinguisher, and ~550 USD in medical (I wonder if anyone's health insurance in this country has *ever* covered any entire ER visit... base total was ~$850, with no ambulance ride or drugs). Plus whatever my landlord is going to charge when I get around to telling him about it. Which will happen at some point after he deals with a god damned raccoon (a family of them, I now suspect) that lives in the crawl space between the floors.
At any rate, the moral of the story is: don't neglect your battery condition, especially if you frequently swap the batteries in and out of a charger. This one was entirely my own fault, and even in America, I think it'd be difficult to sue myself. Also still cheaper than (treating) lung cancer.
Thanks for the story. I'm sorry it happened to you and I'm glad you shared it. Really hits home.
My brother had a battery vent out of his own stupidity, his battery wrap was coming lose so he ripped it off and tried to use the battery. Which is obviously a stupid idea. He managed to throw it outside luckily and no harm was done. Now he has far more respect and knowledge, luckily.
He really had no idea about battery safety at all, which is worrying given the amount of readily available information.
I inspect my batteries regularly, change the cardboard circle on top and rewrap them when they're damaged. It costs about £3 for 25 sticky-back cardboard circles and £5 for about 20m of battery wrap, which will probably last me forever.
As much as I hate articles like this making out like my hobby (I guess you can call it that? I barely have any nicotine now, 1.5mg) is terribly dangerous, it might open people's eyes a bit that an 18650 battery isn't a toy and that they need proper maintenance and thought when handling.
Just reminded me of the guy who kept them loose in his pocket along with keys and coins. That didn't work out too well either.
I'm generally pretty careful with me 18650s, but I realised that my current brace of 'em was a few years old. Never really abused (rarely above 150w in two or three cell mods, usually under half that) but the £50 for four brand new Samsung 30Qs (15A, 3000Mah) is more piece of mind for me than my own hamfistedness when it comes to rewrapping. They're probably a bit chemically tired by now, too.
That, and they should be good for a few more years of 50-75w dripping that I do when I'm not tapping away on my Innoken T20 tank at about 13w.
I treat cell replacement as just running costs, and it's just a 'few packets of fags' cost these days really....
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