back to article Huawei CEO sings 'Bye, bye, mister American Pai', trims US C-suite

Huawei has acknowledged the US market may be a lost cause, at least for now. The Federal Communications Commission this week took a vote that effectively prohibited Huawei and fellow Chinese vendor ZTE from the US market: US carriers that receive federal broadband funds aren't allowed to spend that money with vendors deemed a …

  1. amehaye

    "Think of the children" or something

    First I thought that there might be some merit to the claims about security risk, but then I saw that Ajit Pai is involved. Now I think that preventing competition is the more likely cause.

    1. big_D Silver badge

      Re: "Think of the children" or something

      Pai seems to be doing everything he can to sabotage an open Internet and the US Government to sabotage international trade and the Cloud...

      I have a feeling these isolationist policies might come back and bite them soon.

      The last time the USA tried this was in the 30s, I hope we don't need a global conflict on the scale of the last one to bring them back out of their malaise this time.

      1. Michael Habel Silver badge

        Re: "Think of the children" or something

        The last time the USA tried this was in the 30s

        That (European conflict you chose to enter against German at that time), wasn't any concern of ours. Not unlike how the Syrian conflict should be any concern of ours. There are plenty of other Countries surrounding it, to either ignore, or deal with the problem themselves.

        So Presdent Trump made a remark about eventually yanking everyone out of that Region, about a week or so mow. And then what happens? Another Gas attack? Coinidence OH HELL NO!

        But, bac the 30's since you broght it up. The ONLY mistake made during that time, was to underestmate the capability of the IJN. Oh sure there were plenty of men like William (Billy), Mitchell who were evently removed from their posts because they were making too much noise on that very subject.

        So that One mistake was to be dismissive of the IJN. In the inital conflict of the Second World War. The Pacific Theater was the only lagitimate one for the USA to be envolved in.

        1. Arctic fox
          Headmaster

          Re: "you chose to enter against German........"

          I suggest that you take look at the history of WWII in Europe because you are clearly very ignorant of the course of events that led to Britain and France declaring war on Germany at the beginning of September 1939. The word "chose" had very little to do with the reality that both my country and France found themselves in when Hitler invaded Poland on the first of that month. Your jingoistic attitudes with regard to US interests and the hell with everybody else do you no credit whatsoever.

          Oh and no, I am not one of those who have downvoted you - quite frankly I could not be bothered.

          1. Michael Habel Silver badge

            Re: "you chose to enter against German........"

            Ahhh yes but, Great Britain, and France ARE NOT the United States of America now are they?

          2. HausWolf

            Re: "you chose to enter against German........"

            Don't mind him, he's just another trump follower who thinks muh american exceptionalism is really a thing.

            But he should be reminded the last time someone ran around yelling America First it was a bunch sympathizers to a certain austrian guy who thought he too was exceptional. To be fair though, according to trump there are many fine people in that group as well.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "you chose to enter against German........"

              I'm confused here.

              The US is active internationally, accused of sticking their noses in where they don't belong, and people are upset.

              Now the US is diminishing their international involvement, and people are upset.

              It seems a bit like telling the kid with the ball to go home, then complaining that he took his ball with him.

              1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

                Re: "you chose to enter against German........"

                Now the US is diminishing their international involvement, and people are upset.

                It seems a bit like telling the kid with the ball to go home, then complaining that he took his ball with him.

                Slightly different aspect. USA wants to take the ball home (by waging trade wars and erecting tariff walls), but still control the game the rest of the kids play by telling everyone what they do. It also still insists that it will whack anyone who does not play by the rules it wants to define with a Tomahawk on the head.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: "you chose to enter against German........"

                  "It also still insists that it will whack anyone who does not play by the rules it wants to define with a Tomahawk on the head."

                  Trying to remember the last time the US launched cruise missiles against anyone in the EU...

                  The USA says "If you want to play with us these are the rules." Other countries say "No, thanks." but somehow the USA still has influence? There must be something else these countries want from the USA then, otherwise what influence do they have?

              2. big_D Silver badge

                Re: "you chose to enter against German........"

                @AC

                They have gone from being a big bully to being a cranky hermit... Being somewhere in the middle, a useful member of society, would be a good move.

              3. JohnFen Silver badge

                Re: "you chose to enter against German........"

                "I'm confused here."

                Perhaps I can help. There's a rather big difference between being actively involved in the global community and being a bully in the global community. It's not hard to understand how people could applaud the former and condemn the latter at the same time.

          3. docentore

            Re: "you chose to enter against German........"

            Yeap, your country and France declared war in 1939, but did almost nothing for the next 2 years.

            If British Empire and France would attack Third Reich on the west border in 1939 war would last 6 months not 6 years.

            1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

              Re: "you chose to enter against German........"

              Yeap, your country and France declared war in 1939, but did almost nothing for the next 2 years.

              Which idiot taught you history? Germany did not stop invading and conquering someone for more than two weeks between April 1940 and June 1941.

              Poland - September 1939

              Denmark - April 1940

              Norway - April 1940

              Belgium, Netherlands and France - May 1940

              Greece - October 1940

              Yugoslavia - 1941

              Sure, we can claim that less of half a year between Poland and the Blitzkrieg could be used better, but that is one of those things which could not really be fixed easily as everything, including equipment was built predominantly for defense.

              You can write a book about British and French getting it wrong at that stage both strategically and technically. If they attacked, Gouderian would have had them for breakfast and the war would have been over by 1941. Not in the allies favor.

            2. Ol' Grumpy

              Re: "you chose to enter against German........"

              "Yeap, your country and France declared war in 1939, but did almost nothing for the next 2 years."

              Many brave people, military and civilian, died on both sides in the first two years of the war - especially those who were subjected to the blitz. I think it goes without saying that without American support, the outcome of WWII could have been different but to suggest nothing happened in those first years is unfair and frankly - disrespectful to their memory.

        2. Laura Kerr

          Re: "Think of the children" or something

          "So that One mistake was to be dismissive of the IJN. In the inital conflict of the Second World War. The Pacific Theater was the only lagitimate one for the USA to be envolved in."

          Um... you are aware that Hitler declared war on the US a couple of days after Pearl Harbor, aren't you?

          1. Michael Habel Silver badge

            Re: "Think of the children" or something

            Actually this leaves me to wonder if Germany still actually had any pressence in or around the South Pacific ~ca. 194x. Where they were at least likely to run into an enemy Ship, and so would be forced into such an engament. Otherwise his "War Decloration" makes no sense outside of being itself a False Flag moment. With the sole aim of getting the US to enter the war.

            1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

              Re: "Think of the children" or something

              With the sole aim of getting the US to enter the war.

              In Europe we actually tend to stand by our word. Practically all European countries. We have learned the hard way that the world is a very small place and if you backstab people one time too many you may end up alone right when you need it most. The older the country - the more stubbornly it will keep to it as it has more of a national memory of what happened once upon a time when it did not.

              If a European country has said that it is allied with someone it actually stands our ground. Grudgingly, quite often against the wishes of the population like for example Bulgaria in WW1, but we do so (with the possible exception of Italy, but that is a different and a rather long story).

              Same as we do today. The public opinion in most of Europe in support of the shed destruction PR exercise of last Saturday is under 20%. However, Europe did keep to its word. The support for some of Boris and Gavin Williams escapades is under 15%, however even there Europe has kept its word.

              If you think that Hitler was phenomenally keen on dragging in USA into the European theatre to support Britain and Russia, you frankly need to share what is that you are smoking. It is not a crime to smoke something cool, but not to share it is a capital offence.

              He complied with what he signed for. I know, it is a very difficult concept to grok for an American - the current Iran idiocies demonstrate how much an American signature and an American word can be trusted in all of its glory.

              1. Teiwaz Silver badge

                Re: "Think of the children" or something

                He complied with what he signed for. I know, it is a very difficult concept to grok for an American - the current Iran idiocies demonstrate how much an American signature and an American word can be trusted in all of its glory.

                In support of Japans strike on the U.S. Yes, he did keep that word....

                The Pact he signed with Stalin, and the U.S.S.R, however....

                1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

                  Re: "Think of the children" or something

                  The Pact he signed with Stalin, and the U.S.S.R, however...

                  Hitler actually had non-aggression pacts with everyone and their dog. One detail they deliberately omit from the high school history program is that the first to be signed was with Poland so Poland can concentrate on gearing up for a war with USSR (one of the rather delusional Pilsudski ideas which UK did quite a lot of TLC to maintain).

                  That is different from ALLIANCES. He had significantly less alliances and all of them were with what we today call the Axis + the "sort-of-neutral" Spain. He kept them too and kept to his obligations in them. So did the other Axis members. If you think that Bulgaria was particularly happy to declare a war with UK and USA - it was not. It also kept to its obligations.

        3. martinusher Silver badge

          Re: "Think of the children" or something

          >That (European conflict you chose to enter against German at that time), wasn't any concern of ours.

          Actually, it was but there was a very strong lobby that kept the US isolationist, a lobby that was part of the German outreach effort. This is well documented so I won't waste any more bandwidth on it.

          I normally refer to the US government as the Federal government in posts to distinguish it from our state's government. The Federal government is an embarrassment; its been captured by 'the money', it has no interest in the welfare of "we, the people" except as a vehicle for power and a tool for making even more money. Its policies, both internal and external, are chaotic, destructive and ultimately are diminishing us. We act as if the rest of the world owes us a living, they can't exist without us and if we do get any lip from them we do the post-imperial equivalent of sending in the gunboats. Its a mess and I'm ever hopeful that this year's midterms will be enough of a bloodbath that it will bring Congress at least to its senses (because the Administration couldn't run amok the way its doing without tacit buy-in from Congress).

          To everyone else, sorry about everything and hopefully normal service will get resumed sometime soon.

          BTW -- I'm a Californian in case nobody's guessed already.

    2. Edwin

      Re: "Think of the children" or something

      I find it very hard to understand the reasoning of the US government on these things, and with the current administration, I tend towards "playing silly buggers" conclusions. (nb: if you're reading this in the US, you may disagree, but it's probably fairly representative of how the rest of the world views the current US government)

      The argument against protectionism here is that the US doesn't have a significant capability to build (mobile) networks in-house. Cisco has capabilities, but nothing like the big scandinavian players and the chinese. The remaining argument against this being genuinely about punishing ZTE and securing the US against chinese state influence on critical infrastructure is that it's just part of a trade war game, either bargaining with china or appearing tough for domestic purposes.

      All told, I think this could be explained in many ways, and we may never know why...

      1. Eddy Ito Silver badge

        @Edwin Re: "Think of the children" or something

        Don't forget that what you're calling the current administration includes both parties and houses of Congress. It's pretty simple, team red has picked the Chinese and team blue has picked the Russians as the - Threats to National Security - du jour. Think of it like the security theater the TSA puts on at our airports. It really is the same thing only it's scare theater, actually it's more like domestic terrorism but nobody likes to use those words unless the media has blood spattered images to show but I digress, designed to make it look like we're doing something and protecting the homeland (our heros!), oh, and so the politicians get reelected.

        Let's be real, if they don't keep that storm going in the teacup the people might actually look around and see what's really going on and no politician wants that.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Quarak

      Re: "Think of the children" or something

      All other security concerns not withstanding I think a lot of national governments are starting to have their ear bents by the military about the potential of their mobile phone networks as a massive ad hoc radar network. Several ideas for such an application are in the public domain and it's possible one may been involved in the shooting down of a F117 over Serbia nearly 20 years ago. The thought of another nation getting access to such a network must terrify them. Likely or not it's definitely well in the realm of possible.

      1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        Re: "Think of the children" or something

        Several ideas for such an application are in the public domain and it's possible one may been involved in the shooting down of a F117 over Serbia nearly 20 years ago.

        Nothing to do with that. There was an excellent documentary on that on NTV 10+ years ago.

        The executive summary is: Yank mission planners are idiots.

        The long rundown is that they used the same route into Serbia to bomb the place once and again. As a result the Serbians placed spotters along the route and signalled the SAM site with prehistoric Russian SA-3s that the Yanks are coming. Dunno what frequency that uses but it successfully locked, fired and shut down before the on-duty Wild Weasel replied with an anti-radar missile (*). So no "ad-hoc radar networks using mobile technology" involved.

        The rest is history from which the Yanks have not learned their lesson, but the Russians have.

        Their recent mid-range missiles (specifically the Buk) have a visual-only mode of operation where the missile goes up without radar guidance ABOVE the target and then turns on its own radar head and looks down from a direction where all Stealth aircraft have minimal radar signature reduction. It then comes down from above and there is one less stealth aircraft. If you get some amateur video from Damascus and last Saturday you can see how it works (IMHO a most of the penetrations achieved by US/UK/France were done after the Syrians fired all of their Buks and before they reloaded, while they still had them it was a one shot-one kill affair).

        (*)As a result NATO went into totally trigger happy mode firing twice at Sofia Met radar before the end of the war. Thankfully hitting some hills on the city edge and not a civilian airport in a non-combatant country

  2. Michael Habel Silver badge

    Ok Answers on a Postcard please...

    How do Dooggee, Huawei, Oppo, and ZTE, along with any other no-name China Brand I may have missed. Pose a "Threat" to the National Security of anything?

    In the event, or location of such possible "Threats" wouldn't it just be simpler, and more effective to ban all Celluar Devices at the Door?

    Who are what is actually being defended here? Certinaly NOT any American Companies, such as Qualcomm, or possibly Google. Which again, is likely just another reason why they probably what Androird to die for Fuchsia, ASAP.

    AFAIK only Huawei have ever actually bothered to make the backend stuff which could be argued to do more than it should. e.g. Spying. but, again I gather most Operators are still on Nokia Gear. e.g. That part of the Busness that they (Nokia), never felt the need to sell off to MicroSoft for bargain basement prices.

    So again whats the catch?

    1. ARGO

      Re: Ok Answers on a Postcard please...

      Huawei and ZTE are both network infrastructure equipment vendors. There's a lot of Huawei kit deployed in the UK, but minimal ZTE. There's a lot of both around Europe. And recent deployments in Africa are mainly on Chinese infrastructure

      1. Michael Habel Silver badge

        Re: Ok Answers on a Postcard please...

        Ok I knew about Huawei, being a bigger player in the infrastucture bits. But, ZTE was itself a new one on me. I still thought them somehow to smalltime to have bothered to think that big. considering the kind of... Um... Whats the term again? Landfill Android... That, they produce.

      2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        Re: Ok Answers on a Postcard please...

        There's a lot of Huawei kit deployed in the UK, but minimal ZTE

        Three initially had a lot of ZTE. Not sure it is still the case.

        1. ARGO

          Re: Ok Answers on a Postcard please...

          >Three initially had a lot of ZTE. Not sure it is still the case.

          They've never had ZTE kit in the UK, but there is some in group networks elsewhere in Europe.

          It was NEC and Nokia to begin with, then NEC alone, then Nokia alone and is currently Nokia (3G) and Samsung (4G). Who knew - Samsung also make networks!

          I had quite a lot of involvement back in the NEC days.

    2. big_D Silver badge

      Re: Ok Answers on a Postcard please...

      It has little to do with mobile devices and everything to do with the big iron switches running the networks themselves.

    3. HieronymusBloggs Silver badge

      Re: Ok Answers on a Postcard please...

      "How do Dooggee, Huawei, Oppo, and ZTE, along with any other no-name China Brand I may have missed. Pose a "Threat" to the National Security of anything?"

      Hmm, how could network routers and switches with who knows what kind of snooping capabilities built in pose a security threat to the data flowing through them? You've got me there.

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: Ok Answers on a Postcard please...

        Hmm, how could network routers and switches with who knows what kind of snooping capabilities built in pose a security threat to the data flowing through them? You've got me there.

        As the NSA allegedly did with Cisco kit heading to foreign soil, according to Snowden.

        On the other hand, if the "US" kit is manufactured in China, you also don't know what "extras" might have been added.

        If you really are that paranoid, ensure that everything goes from one concrete bunker to the next using sneaker net - using sneakers made in the USA, of course. Oh, and only vetted sneaker wearers. Oh, and definitely no foreign nationals in sneakers.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ok Answers on a Postcard please...

        "Hmm, how could network routers and switches with who knows what kind of snooping capabilities built in pose a security threat to the data flowing through them? You've got me there"

        The ones that GCHQ and the NSA both thoroughly investigated and went, nope can't find anything wrong with these......which probably mean't yup, we can hack these.

      3. Michael Habel Silver badge

        Re: Ok Answers on a Postcard please...

        Again I only seem to have been aware of them as purveyors of the worlds finest Landfill Androids. Thankfully I don't seem to have had the opertunity to have ever been molested by such crap. So perhaps this is where I slipped up?

  3. DougS Silver badge

    Poor ZTE

    They'll only have their home country of 1.3 billion people to sell their products to, plus a few billion in the rest of the world that doesn't care much about whether they sold stuff to Iran and North Korea.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Poor ZTE

      Who hasn't sold stuff to North Korea and Iran? Supplying Iran with weaponse used to be US government policy.

      The FCC's policy is reminiscent of Japan in 17th century and something I've got no problem with. If America wants to ignore the rest of the world then let it get on with it. Except, of course, it has fingers in pies all over the place.

  4. sanmigueelbeer Silver badge

    Silly them.

    Huwawei and ZTE could still enter the US market by rebranding/rebadging.

  5. HmmmYes Silver badge

    There's a few sides to this.

    1) Security. AFAICT all Chinese tech companies seem to be battalions of the Red Army. There may be good (?) reason for this only the Army had access to hard currency and cheap grads. There are lot of v bad reasons for this, just fill them in yoursleves.

    2) Trade. Anyone who thinks that China is a fair, free trading company is an idiot. A UK company could not buy an noodle stand in the arse end of Xjinian. Christ, CHinese students pay for their studies by shiping back milk powder and the like back home.

    China is a bent, mercantilistic country, looking drag the world economy into its bent, corrupt politics. Trump - randomly - is giving China a much needed slap round the head. This should have happened 10 yearsago but the West was otherwise occupied.

    3) IP theft. This is in addition to the Red Army. Chinese companies spend most of their time harvesting data. Thos wierd packets trying to get into the corp network. Mainly Chinese.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. JohnFen Silver badge

      "China is a bent, mercantilistic country, looking drag the world economy into its bent, corrupt politics."

      Perhaps so, but there's more than a little of the pot calling the kettle black here.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I dont mind as long as...

    They ban android and IOS as well..

  7. Nolveys Silver badge
    Headmaster

    Eric Xu, one of Huawei's three rotating CEOs...

    If you're a CEO of Huawei then you can afford chairs with really good bearings.

  8. John70

    Are the US monitoring the manufacturing of iPhones in China just in case of any "additional features"?

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Are the US monitoring the manufacturing of iPhones in China just in case of any "additional features"?

      Maybe it's such an additional feature that's allowing unlocking of iPhones nowadays.

    2. HmmmYes Silver badge

      Dont need to.

      Apples production process will specify everything - chipsets, software images, test frameworks.

      Id guess Apple will sample every 10Kish item and tear it apart, checking for versions.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    US carriers that receive federal broadband funds aren't allowed to spend that money with vendors deemed a national security risk.

    In that case non of the US carriers can upgrade their equipment ever because all of it originates in China and the NSA inject a backdoor inspect it when it arrives.

    The other thing that should be done is to inspect the bank accounts of the FCC commissioners and follow the money trail to find out exactly who is behind this.

  10. rtb61

    All ARE A RISK

    Every foreign country involved in your communications infrastructure is a major risk. They have the keys to the kingdom, shut down your digital communications and they shut down your country. The most dangerous weapon now, high altitude EMP detonations.

    I would not trust anything coming out of the USA for a second, not in the least, one national security letter and a built in off switch not to mention hacking tools is guaranteed, no warrant, you are a foreigner and you skin might as well be brown, when US corporate profits are on the line.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: All ARE A RISK

      And what makes you think it's not the same EVERYWHERE ELSE? Hell, you might as well go full on DTA Mode and find somewhere to hide that's radio and thermal-proof. Maybe that's why the fixation with volcano lairs...

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