back to article Accenture, Capgemini, Deloitte creating app to register 3m EU nationals living in Brexit Britain

The Home Office has inked a deal with a coterie of consultancies and system integrators to create a digital app intended to register the three million EU citizens in the UK post-Brexit. The department confirmed to The Register that Accenture, BJSS, Capgemini, Deloitte Digital, PA Consulting and Worldreach had been signed up to …

  1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    Really?

    we need to make sure as much care goes into supporting the users than will no doubt go into developing a good app

    Really? That is getting perilously close to making the environment not hostile to immigrants. Your thinking is subversive, the black van will transport you to Lark Hill shortly.

    In any case - looking at who is involved, it will be something abominable that will score between 1 and 1.5 on Google Apps. If it scores above 1.7 I promise to print this page and eat it without mustard.

    1. johnaaronrose

      Re: Really?

      @Voland's right hand

      This could be a rash promise as some Accenture, Capgemini & Deloitte employees could be instructed to give the app a good score.

    2. Smooth Newt Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: Really?

      Really? That is getting perilously close to making the environment not hostile to immigrants. Your thinking is subversive, the black van will transport you to Lark Hill shortly.

      No risk of that. If it follows the usual pattern, the existing 85 page form will be reduced to a 190 page one before the project is abandoned in a decade or so because of massive cost overruns and a total lack of usability.

      1. MiguelC Silver badge

        Re: Really?

        Citizens' Registry App, or "CRAPP" for short

        1. AndrueC Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: Really?

          Foreigner Application Reporting and Tracking System

          FARTS.

          1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Joke

            FARTS? Nooooo. But

            Foreigner Application Reporting And GPS Enablement.

            FARAGE

        2. MonkeyNuts.Com
          Big Brother

          Re: Really?

          The app clearly as only one name, The Register

          Goldstein, because Goldstein knows you, before you know, you knew, you know, you needed him. Register now.

      2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: Really?

        No risk of that. If it follows the usual pattern, the existing 85 page form will be reduced to a 190 page one before the project is abandoned in a decade or so because of massive cost overruns and a total lack of usability.

        Followed by the project being taken over by Crapita, so they can poke their snouts into what's left in the trough.

      3. macjules Silver badge

        Re: Really?

        1) Deloitte "Consulting" state that they always claimed that bringing in CapGem was a bad idea.

        2) Accenture (post Edinburgh council fiasco) agree with Deloitte

        3) CapGem repeat RoyalMail contract with 2 year overrun and produce a Drupal 7 site (unpatched)

        4) Capita agree to step in and 'help rescue the situation'

        5) Costs remapped and escalate from £15m to £1.5Bn with a 3 year delivery window.

        6) End product fails to work at all and Capita CEO "at a loss to understand why".

        7) Departmental internal inquiry fails to find any party to blame.

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Big Brother

      "..perilously close to making the environment *not* hostile to immigrants."

      Calm yourself citizen.

      As a recognized "Centre for Evil" in the UK the Home Office is working tirelessly to ensure that will not be the case.

      App defaults will be chosen to be as inconvenient as possible.

      Error correction after entry will be almost impossible to carry out.

      Multiple fields will be inexplicably interlocked with out proven "Kafkaesque maze" technology.

      And of course the app will follow SOP for all phone apps and demand full access to your address book and email, GPS and IP address.

      <signed>

      The Home Office.

      We take evil seriously.

  2. alain williams Silver badge

    A focus on security I hope

    This is going to want a copy of all the information that is needed to open a bank account & similar. If someone can compromise it there are going to be many unhappy people.

    Making this run on a mobile phone might be trendy, but is it secure ?

    Hmmm

    1. csecguy44

      Re: A focus on security I hope

      I'm unsure if a mobile platform would be the absolute best interface for such an involved process. On the other hand, 90% of the information required is already known to the Government, such as address, tax, employment history etc, so if the process can be simplified, it might just work.. but that's a big IF.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A focus on security I hope

        But if the experience of a friend of mine is anything to go by, the Government cannot (or will not) help the process by accessing those records.

        She was required (after paying the £1000+ fee for indefinite right to remain) to provide copies of all the documents that HMG should have already had - and when they asked for tax records she didn't have, she requested them from the Inland Revenue for them and they said they didn't have them.

        The newspapers have many stories of people caught in similar traps - the government asking for data that they should already have, but declining to provide records. It seems we are required to keep paper for ever while HMG gets to destroy it or lose it after a few years. Heaven help you if your records get lost or destroyed in a move, cellar flood, attic leak, fire, etc.

        My friend moved her residence and business to Norway after spending many years in the UK running her own consultancy (which she had set up after studying at University in the UK). Norway was happy to have her as an EU national, paying taxes and contributing to the economy.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: A focus on security I hope

          > Making this run on a mobile phone might be trendy, but is it secure ?

          And of course mobile phone contracts will only be available to those who have already registered via this app

    2. BlartVersenwaldIII
      Devil

      Re: A focus on security I hope

      > Making this run on a mobile phone might be trendy, but is it secure ?

      > I'm unsure if a mobile platform would be the absolute best interface for such an involved process.

      How else would you propose getting easy access to their contact lists and GPS location, and the right time to alert them with directions to the nearest patriotism re-education camp?

      (I pondered using "joke alert" but I think devil's advocate is probably more applicable these days)

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A focus on security I hope

      Of course there will be a focus on security - your details will immediately be passed onto national security services along with as much information as they can conveniently grab from the rest of your mobile device.

  3. Omgwtfbbqtime Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Deloittes involved?

    At least the code will be available for review on a public repository.

    Wait what?

  4. Wolfclaw Silver badge

    WIth these companies involved what could possibly go wrong, how about another big data breach, and the government whitewashing the event by telling ICO to drop it !

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Depends on what you mean by wrong...

      The companies involved don't see any major issues with failing to deliver the application after massive cost overruns and delays.

  5. Smooth Newt Silver badge
    Happy

    10-15 million pounds

    For a simple form filling app with a database behind it holding a few million records? Nice work if you can get it.

    Plus this is just the starting point, since the really big bucks come from the extra bits the client will decide they want bolted on as the project progresses.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 10-15 million pounds

      I think that £10-15m is indeed just for an app on the phone and a database. The comment from an unnamed source "I guess the complexity will be integrating with other databases," is accurate, but sadly suggestive that nobody has stopped to consider what it needs to integrate with and how, nor what they will do with all the validations, exceptions, errors, updates, and therefore all of that work will be a pricey extra at the consultant's generous day rate.

      It won't help that as usual members of the Thieves Guild have been awarded a contract tor work in which they have either a poor reputation, or none at all. I'm surprised that Crapita didn't make it into this money laundering syndicate.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: 10-15 million pounds

        "I think that £10-15m is indeed just for an app on the phone and a database."

        Have you seen who is involved. That sum is just for the consultations. The app and db are extra (and may never actually arrive)

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: 10-15 million pounds

      "Plus this is just the starting point, since the really big bucks come from the extra bits the client will decide they want bolted on as the project progresses."

      That's a given anyway with all government IT projects, even when the policy isn't dependant on a future Brexit agreement that's still in the process of negotiation. This one is absolutely guaranteed to have policy changes before it's ready.

    3. SVV Silver badge

      Re: 10-15 million pounds

      No, the app will cost a few hundred thousand, and its' own database and hardware will take it up to about a million. The other 14 million will be required to yet again re-animate the body of the 1970s system administrator who they keep in a bubbling liquid filled cylinder fttled with electrodes into his brain, who is the only person left on the planet that knows how to wok with the rusting customised VAX systems with hierarchical databases that are still actually running the core systems the governmen relies on that the app will have to interface with.

      Either that, or iit's Accenture, BJSS, Capgemini, Deloitte Digital, PA Consulting and Worldreach taking the fucking piss again at our expense.

      1. Wensleydale Cheese Silver badge

        Re: 10-15 million pounds

        "The other 14 million will be required to yet again re-animate the body of the 1970s system administrator who they keep in a bubbling liquid filled cylinder fttled with electrodes into his brain, who is the only person left on the planet that knows how to wok with the rusting customised VAX systems with hierarchical databases that are still actually running the core systems the governmen relies on that the app will have to interface with."

        Technical note. The first VAXes didn't appear that early.

        The VAXes are there so that the even older ICL and IBM mainframes can talk to each other.

        1. SVV Silver badge

          Re: 10-15 million pounds

          Thanks for the knowledge there, thought it may have been the case, but was not sure.

          However, it has reminded me that my first paid work on computers was on a VAX system in the late 80s (doing data entry for a summer), not the UNIX systems a few years later after university (beginning of "proper" career). I have indeed had a few chortles in recent years when encountering younger colleagues who have just mastered the ssh command, and telling them how much harder it used to be typing the 4 letters "call" instead 30 years ago. And the thriill of the efforts of the day's labour thundering out of the dot matrix printer.......aaah!

          I do object however to your suggestion that anybody ever got an ICL and IBM mainframe to talk to each other, in any meaningful and useful sense of the phrase.

          1. Wensleydale Cheese Silver badge

            Re: 10-15 million pounds

            "I do object however to your suggestion that anybody ever got an ICL and IBM mainframe to talk to each other, in any meaningful and useful sense of the phrase."

            Objection noted. A VAX equipped with SNA/RJE was a good way of talking to IBMs, and that apparently included getting two IBMs to talk to each other.

            I suspect that many comms projects involving disparate mainframes of the era were quietly shelved in favour of existing tape based solutions.

  6. James 51 Silver badge

    xkcd

    https://www.xkcd.com/1977/

    1. Geekpride

      Also xkcd

      https://www.xkcd.com/327/

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bugs? What bugs?

    Our system is working perfectly, and we deny your FOI request because immigration control

    1. Halfmad

      Re: Bugs? What bugs?

      Well they could just deny it seeing as FOI is a teethless beast with no comeback on organisations which essentially ignore it anyway.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    An app?

    And what if someone doesn't have a supported mobe?

    I hope to get the contract for an app to register Britons living in the EU, though...

    1. CheesyTheClown

      Re: An app?

      If they don’t have a supported mobile phone, they won’t be able to install the UK approved “Big Brother” backdoor required for unlocking the phone by authorities.

      Do you honestly think Theresa May will approve anyone not proving themselves to the UK by forfeituring their right to privacy.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is there a "no Brexit" clause ?

    Be curious if these giants of public contracts have inked a contract with no provision for Brexit not happening.

    And even more curious as to what the Mail and Express would make of such a thing ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Is there a "no Brexit" clause ?

      >And even more curious as to what the Mail and Express would make of such a thing ?

      Would they be more outraged by Accenture (USA but now Ireland), Capgemini (France) and Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu Limited (Ok, UK but doesn't sound it!) having the contract?

    2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Is there a "no Brexit" clause ?

      Of course not.

      <gollum>

      We wants it

      We needs it

      We must have hard Brexit at all costs.

      </gollum>

      Hmm. I wonder how difficult a video would be to gradually morph Gollum into Jackob Rees Mogg?

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    confused

    1) Started building an app without the policy it needs to reflect...

    2) Using off the shelf components

    3) Costing 10-15 m

    So, they don't know what they want yet, but they started building it.... a national immigration app is sooo common that there is going to a sample app on Themeforest for deloitte to buy at $15...

    but it still costs government 10-15 million.

    Its all true or none of it is..... (im banking on none).

    1) The policy is decided, if the app doesn't implement the policy as expected by the EU, its a bug and we'll fix it, promise

    2) Deloitte once made a form based website (i know i coded it)... they can resuse that tech, can't they? (No, no they really couldn't).

    3) Its going to cost 20 to 30 million at least.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: confused

      3) Its going to cost 200 to 300 million at least.

      There fixed it for you.

    2. Nick Kew Silver badge

      Re: confused

      1) Started building an app without the policy it needs to reflect...

      Where've you been this past nearly-two years? It's the new normal now.

      Just look at the Northern Ireland border: technology will provide a solution, no political agreement required.

      And it seems the EU now agree: they've joined wholeheartedly in the Russian spat designed to distract attention while the "transition" agreement was put through.

      1. JimmyPage Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: Just look at the Northern Ireland border

        I've been watching a fascinating documentary about how well the Soft Border is working already ...

        https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09tnc2x/episodes/player

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Just look at the Northern Ireland border

          I thought you might have meant this documentary ;-)

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p061bd5l

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: Just look at the Northern Ireland border

          "https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09tnc2x/episodes/player"

          "Soft border patrol"

          Genius title.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ah the old we don't want to spend money employing people to do this so we'll make an app and on the plus side it isn't transparent. How would you know the information entered on the app is legitimate? will it be used to prove to employers you have the right to work? Will it ever work anyway? So many questions.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cheaper Option:

    "Send 'em Home!"

    No EU nationals, no need for a complicated IT system or apps. It's what many voted for. Brexit means Brexit!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cheaper Option:

      What if they already live here and their home is here? I would rather they be working and contributing to society than sitting at home.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cheaper Option:

      Going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're taking the piss

      1. Nick Kew Silver badge

        Re: Cheaper Option:

        Going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're taking the piss

        Indeed, I read it as tongue-in-cheek.

        There's another AC below for the real downvotes.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Cheaper Option:

          "There's another AC below for the real downvotes."

          The lost revenue comment? That's just a comment on cost of applying for citizenship.

          Wasn't meant to imply it was justified, just that they're unlikely to make such a giveaway.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Cheaper Option:

        Send 'em all back.

        Bloody, Normans what have they ever done for us ?

        Anglo-saxons, vikings - bunch of hooligans

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

  13. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
    Big Brother

    For the sake of just 3 million people it would seem easier, cheaper and less problematic to just say they can have de facto British citizenship status and we'll deal with any issues as they arise.

    But it's not really about accommodating EU citizens; it is about pandering to nationalism, racism and xenophobia, removing people from Britain, and creating an adverse environment for immigrants who remain.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Nice idea, but..

      That's £3billion of lost revenue...

    2. Peter2 Silver badge

      For the sake of just 3 million people it would seem easier, cheaper and less problematic to just say they can have de facto British citizenship status

      I think that this is more or less the plan.

      But in order to do that, you need to know whom those 3 million people are to grant them de facto British citizenship status- hence this project.

      1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
        Headmaster

        whom who

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        For the sake of just 3 million people it would seem easier, cheaper and less problematic to just say they can have de facto British citizenship status

        Forcing them to lose their Dutch or German citizenship?

        Would they have to swear allegiance to the Queen?

        What we really need would be some system that allowed people to freely move and work across a bunch of neighbouring countries to the general economic benefit of all

  14. Blockchain commentard Silver badge
    Trollface

    An awful lot of AC's posting. Johnny Foreigner or currently working for Accenture etc.?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      AC because...

      we're talking about the Home Office here...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "An awful lot of AC's posting. Johnny Foreigner or currently working for Accenture etc.?"

      Of course, because any suggestion that Brexit will not lead us to the sunlit uplands, where unicorns frolic amongst the milk and honey, means that you are un-patriotic and a traitor

  15. This post has been deleted by its author

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Seems they've overlooked a supplier with experience of large scale categorization and tagging

    or is IBM sitting this one out...

    1. Teiwaz Silver badge

      Re: Seems they've overlooked a supplier with experience of large scale categorization and tagging

      or is IBM sitting this one out...

      Do they even have anyone left who is not sales, Marketing or management?

      Or maybe even they can see where this might go, and don't want a repeat round of bad publicity when it all goes rotten

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Seems they've overlooked a supplier with experience of large scale categorization and tagging

      IBM's Tattoo and Barcodes (TAB) team - with form for this kind of thing - is preparing for the Mexican wall instead.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Seems they've overlooked a supplier with experience of large scale categorization and tagging

      http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/1388.wss

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Seems they've overlooked a supplier with experience of large scale categorization and tagging

        > IBM and its employees around the world find the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime abhorrent and categorically condemn any actions which aided their unspeakable acts.

        Of course they'd say that publicly. They're a US origin corp, so therefore heavily PR enabled.

        Their actions towards customers, employees, and everyone else demonstrate the reality though.

    4. Nick Kew Silver badge

      Re: Seems they've overlooked a supplier with experience of large scale categorization and tagging

      or is IBM sitting this one out...

      It's Being Mended.

  17. mbiggs

    Ah...Scrum of Scrums, Agile, DevOps.....

    Quote: "The groups running the programme will work in small scrum teams together..."

    *

    ...a recipe for an "app" which will perform differently every day....the "App of a Thousand Days"!

    *

    God help the three million users!

    1. Laura Kerr
      FAIL

      Re: Ah...Scrum of Scrums, Agile, DevOps.....

      Every two weeks, a new edge-of-your-seat thrill, as Team A's new front end release breaks Team B's business logic, so Team B has to implement a fix that breaks Team C's database. That means Team C has to deploy a hotfix that renders Team A's front end unusable, so Team A deploys a fix that locks up Team B's code.

      Team B patches the problem and introduces a few security holes as a bonus, causing Team C to throw a hissy fit because the patching and fixes now allow SQL injection, so a bunfight ensues over whose responsibility it is to harden security.

      Then external security consultants take a look at the design and promptly flatten it with a simple pen test. Next, the pen test report detailing all the holes is deemed as needed no further action by a suit who thinks SQL injection is a new DVD release, while the poor sods administering the system keep it cobbled together with a collection of cron jobs running fifty-three scripts written in seven different languages.

      Then when the inevitable data theft occurs, the aforementioned sods catch the heat for it.

      I think we need a Private Fraser 'we're doomed' icon.

  18. Notwork

    Government IT projects, ffs!

    An App, you’re only going to use it once so a webpage is fine, is anyone really going to put 20 minutes’ worth of data in via the tiny keyboard of a phone, and do that without a type-o?

    Why such a massive budget and so many companies involved, you’re sending in some data, probably json, via a web page, with a couple of image files and then have something like RabbitMQ to manage message passing between DB’s and some services to scan the passport images, then send a couple of progress notifications via email or text message.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Government IT projects, ffs!

      20 minutes’ worth of data

      Your forgetting the steps where you have to wait for them to post you a pin or which require a dozen different govt depts to send you paper copies of your data before you can advance.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Reduce the overcrowding

    EU nationals (except the Irish for whom there is a treaty that predates the EU) should have no automatic right to stay.

    If they want to stay then they can apply for UK work visas or UK citizenship but they should not have an automatic right to either.

    1. Laura Kerr

      Re: Reduce the overcrowding

      OK, so we send 'em all back... then what do we do when the EU nations reciprocate?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Reduce the overcrowding

        There are far fewer UK nationals living abroad in the EU than there are EU nationals living in the UK. If both sides did the same then there would still be a net reduction in the number of people in the UK.

        (There is about 3.7 million EU nationals in the UK, about 1.2 million UK nationals in the EU (data from fullfact.org - see https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/ for more details).)

        1. gnasher729 Silver badge

          Re: Reduce the overcrowding

          "There are far fewer UK nationals living abroad in the EU than there are EU nationals living in the UK. If both sides did the same then there would still be a net reduction in the number of people in the UK."

          And a massive loss of actual work done. Try finding anyone British willing to do the jobs instead of scrounging off benefits.

        2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

          Re: Reduce the overcrowding

          There are far fewer UK nationals living abroad in the EU than there are EU nationals living in the UK. If both sides did the same then there would still be a net reduction in the number of people in the UK.

          You would also get:

          - A massive shortage of clinical staff in the NHS (both doctors and nurses) as the large numbers of highly-qualified and hard working EU nationals are forced to leave.

          - A massive increase in the load on the pensions system as all the ageing ex-pats are forced to return

          - Chaos in the already pretty well screwed up housing market as prices sky-rocket in some places (such as seaside towns where all the oldies repatriate themselves to) and crash in others (where the EU workers are forced out). This will create both increased homelessness in some areas, where the housing stock is insufficient, and increased crime in areas where large numbers of properties are left vacant.

          - Increased demand on the now even-more-dangerously understaffed NHS when all those oldies with their health problems return from their relatively stress-free lives in the sun to the cold-and-wet of Blighty, coupled with the extreme stress of forced relocation.

          The list of consequences goes on, I can't think of any positive ones other than the age-old and well debunked 'overcrowding' argument (there is more land given over to golf courses in the UK than housing).

          1. Peter2 Silver badge

            Re: Reduce the overcrowding

            While i'm not for throwing people out of the UK who are here legally this is absurd nonsense:-

            - Chaos in the already pretty well screwed up housing market as prices sky-rocket in some places (such as seaside towns where all the oldies repatriate themselves to) and crash in others (where the EU workers are forced out). This will create both increased homelessness in some areas, where the housing stock is insufficient, and increased crime in areas where large numbers of properties are left vacant.

            There are 3.7 million EU citizens in the UK and 1.2 million UK citizens in the EU. There is no way that could create increased homelessness, basic market forces would ensure that the price houses would fall with a surplus of 2.5 million properties on the market and multiple millions of people dropping out of the labour market would increase wages for the people left.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Reduce the overcrowding

              >There are 3.7 million EU citizens in the UK and 1.2 million UK citizens in the EU. There is no way that could create increased homelessness, basic market forces would ensure that the price houses would fall with a surplus of 2.5 million properties on the market and multiple millions of people dropping out of the labour market would increase wages for the people left.

              3.7 million people - 1.2 million people != 2.5 million houses. Probably nearer 600,000-1.5 million depending on occupancy rates.

              What happens to all those people that a fall in house prices put into negative equity? At a time when many are struggling that could be the final straw for a lot of younger families.

              BTW millions of people dropping out of the UK would also shrink the size of the economy significantly, with lots of smaller shops, restaurants, taxi firms, etc, finding themselves with a smaller pool of customers.

          2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: Reduce the overcrowding

            "(there is more land given over to golf courses in the UK than housing)."

            AH, good, something else to blame Trump for.

        3. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

          Re: Reduce the overcrowding

          Who cares about the net change? I'm more concerned that ex-pat pensioners living a deserved retirement in the Sun might get uprooted to live in a tiny cold flat in Blighty,

        4. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

          Re: Reduce the overcrowding

          There are far fewer UK nationals living abroad in the EU than there are EU nationals living in the UK. If both sides did the same then there would still be a net reduction in the number of people in the UK.

          I would rather have EU citizens who want to be here than returned ex-pats who don't.

          Many will be furious about being taken from their sunny homes and returned, will spend every moment of their lives hating what has been done, making themselves bloody nuisances with it, clogging up hospitals and costing us on welfare, housing benefits and bus passes.

          Of course there's an argument they will be hating brexiteers rather than remoaners, will want to rejoin the EU as soon as possible, so maybe it's not such a bad idea.

        5. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Reduce the overcrowding

          >There are far fewer UK nationals living abroad in the EU than there are EU nationals living in the UK. If both sides did the same then there would still be a net reduction in the number of people in the UK.

          Are you forcibly splitting families, or is the entire lot of them out for fraternizing with the enemy? What happens to all the kids born in the UK to EU parents (and vice versa)? - do they get to stay while their parents get to leave?

          Can we just round up all the f*ckw!ts and move them to somewhere more amenable? - perhaps Mercury.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Reduce the overcrowding

      What a tremendous insight. Why didn't we think of that before?

      I wish you'd been around in 2016 when we were all voting.

    3. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

      Re: Reduce the overcrowding

      "no automatic right to stay."

      Traitor. Traitor the aged ex-Pats that rely on reciprocal arrangements. If you kick out EU nationals, those pensioners may also have to return home, and they'll have more expensive accommodation, and less clement weather taxing their old bones, as well as your dagger in their back.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Reduce the overcrowding

      >EU nationals (except the Irish for whom there is a treaty that predates the EU) should have no automatic right to stay.

      >If they want to stay then they can apply for UK work visas or UK citizenship but they should not have an automatic right to either.

      Fine, you start with deporting the most obvious immigrant from an EU country (Prince Philip) and his descendants, while we work out who is in, or out, of the naughty list this week.

    5. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: Reduce the overcrowding

      British nationals (and I don't care about Irish) should have no automatic right to stay. First give evidence that you are working, and this doesn't include government jobs or phone sales, and making a positive contribution to the country where I live.

    6. Charlie Clark Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Reduce the overcrowding

      You are Terry Fuckwit and I won £5!

      If they want to stay then they can apply for UK work visas or UK citizenship but they should not have an automatic right to either.

      Existing treaties give them the right. Unfortunately, successive UK governments have turned this into a bureaucratic nightmare that is slow and hideously expensive. Estimates were that at the current rate of processing applications the Home Office would take years, probably decades to handle for all those that are legititmate. And that's before the already understaffed ministry gets to take on the responsibilities of customs at the ports and the magical and revolutionary solution for the frictionless but watertight border between Northern Ireland and the European Union.

      Hard to imagine the same group of clowns that came up with this clusterfuck getting an IT system wrong, isn't it? But BoJo probably has a cunning plan on how to do it. I think it involves Boris Bikes. And buses. Or maybe he was talking out of his arse. Hard to tell sometimes. Or ever, actually.

      To the facts: the vast majority of EU residents in the UK are net contributors (NI and tax). There are also doing work that UK citizens either can't or won't. In economic terms the UK is importing their skills because itself has a shortage. Apart from the legal implications of not respecting existing treaty obligations, asking them to leave will expose the UK to a skill shortage. This is already happening in the NHS which cannot fill existing vacancies and is now seeing EU citizens leave their posts because of the uncertainty (May did agree to exending the existing agreement and has since attempted to renege). People are seeing appointments and operations postponed and cancelled because of Brexit. Take what you want, says the Lord, then pay for it.

    7. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Reduce the overcrowding

      have no automatic right to stay.

      Do you realize that the reciprocity of this means the whole Daily Mail reading pensioner brigade from Costa Del Crime and Costa Del Swamp (Fuerteventura) and Costa Brava (Lansarote) and Costa Whatever (it is called in Paphos) being shipped home? On average, they have 2+ conditions per head which need permanent care from the NHS. We are currently paying Spanish, Portugese, Cypriots and Bulgarians to do that and there it is CHEAP or RIDICULOUSLY CHEAP.

      Do you think that the UK economy is capable of absorbing 800K+ of such pensioners from warmer climes while at the same time losing the tax revenue from 3M of productive population we send them back?

      Personally, from an utterly selfish standpoint, I should applaud your idea - I can leverage the fact that I hold a whole "royal flush" of passports (and so does my entire family), use the fact that the demand here will recover, sell the house and buy a nice 5 bedroom villa with a pool overlooking the sea somewhere warm leveraging the fact that the demand there will tank and so will the prices. What not to like in such a scenario :)

      However, while I am selfish, I am not a scumbag as the result of this scenario will be something akeen to what happened in USSR and Eastern Europe in the 1990-es. People DEAD. Dying in the corridors of hospitals with no resources to care for them.

      That is clearly not a problem for the whole real-estate gang sponsoring key BrExit politicians which is trying their best for EXACTLY that scenario with the minor addition of buying and selling at profit at both ends (here and overseas). There are plenty of companies and directorships taken by some of them by the way (including MPs) in anticipation of that. I found some of them by chance when trawling the Spanish and Bulgarian business registers for this. So I am not joking about them wanting exactly this scenario and the selfish rationale for it.

      Just to be clear - the ones which have not invested in Real Estate have invested in Healtcare providers in anticipation of the same. That scum with Vlad The Welfare Vampire being a prime example is even worse than the real estate scum.

  20. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

    Ah, someone has catalogued seven of the Govt's largest IT failures for us:

    https://www.softwareadvisoryservice.com/blog/biggest-uk-government-project-failures/

    Interestingly the utter failure of the CSA#1 doesn't even make the list, nor does the abandoned 2006 National Identity Card attempt.

  21. gnasher729 Silver badge

    What 85 page document?

    It's well hidden, but there is a much shorter document (less than 20 pages) that I filled out, with most of the heavy lifting done by the fact that I have five consecutive P60s, and it could be much shorter if the idiots didn't ask for "any convictions, including traffic violations, anywhere, at any time".

  22. fixit_f

    With those three sets of muppets on the case (surprised Crapita aren’t involved too) what could POSSIBLY GO WRONG

  23. SecretSonOfHG

    Accenture, Capgemini and Deloitte together? Now I'm confident

    This won't happen. Ever. We're safe from Brexit. Any of these three on its own is perfectly capable of screwing much simpler projects. The blaming, finger pointing and lawsuits will also provide a lot of entertainment value.

    1. Dr_N Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Accenture, Capgemini and Deloitte together? Now I'm confident

      >The blaming, finger pointing and lawsuits will also provide a lot of entertainment value.

      This sums up my whole expectation/hope for brexit.

      We need to see a fun brexit with shits 'n' giggles aplenty.

      These type of half-arsed, badly formed projects will be the backbone of the brexit experience.

  24. codejunky Silver badge

    Hmm

    Hopefully not going to be a screw up, but I would never put money on it.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bank Cards

    Just stick a photo and ID# on the bank card - like other countries do - they have the security infrastructure and vetting processes and link a web service to it to the Home Office/Gov.

    This could also work for the wider UK population as an ID card. I don't understand the need for an app.

    Or; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area

    National identity cards are issued to their citizens by the governments of all European Union member states except Denmark, Ireland, and the United Kingdom, and also by Liechtenstein and Switzerland (the latter not formally part of the EEA).

    So just issue a National Identity Card. EU nationals should have one anyway.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Bank Cards

      @AC

      "So just issue a National Identity Card. EU nationals should have one anyway."

      The UK has resisted the 'papers please' approach and we didnt like it when new labour tried to take us that route. We are leaving. We do not need to subscribe to the interfering government methods used in Europe. It is not our way.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bank Cards

        "The UK has resisted the 'papers please' approach"...

        But wants to create an app for EU nationals, that will;

        a) probably not achieve what is needed. What problem is it trying to solve? This'll lead to unclear requirements.

        b) overrun in time and cost - assuming all contractors are on time and materials vs. fixed price

        c) be cancelled in the next government

        d) not fit with whatever is agreed during Brexit

        Also - what do employers need to do with this? Can they check the database to see if that EU person has the right to live and work in the UK post Brexit?

        Really - what is this app trying to solve - apart from reduction of a paper filled form?

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Bank Cards

          @AC

          "Really - what is this app trying to solve - apart from reduction of a paper filled form?"

          I think you just answered your question. Personally I expect your points are all correct and I assume from an employers standpoint it doesnt do anything to them, they just check the right to work in this country as normal for any immigrant/citizen.

          But apart from being registered as a citizen of the country we dont do the national ID thing which some other European countries seem to like. Unfortunately there are some in government who want to bring back the nat ID card idea. I have no love for more government meddling.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bank Cards

        A National ID card makes immigration control fairly straightforward.

        Just ask Belgium, Finland, France, etc...

        And you can't force just non-UK nationals to have an ID card, because any non-UK-looking UK national will have to have one anyway, to get by racial profiling

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Bank Cards

          @AC

          "And you can't force just non-UK nationals to have an ID card, because any non-UK-looking UK national will have to have one anyway, to get by racial profiling"

          Very true. But if none of us have it then the problem is solved just as it always has been in the UK. This gives an amusing but good view of the problem-

          http://www.continentaltelegraph.com/2018/03/29/lets-not-have-id-cards-to-go-with-the-blue-passports-eh/

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bank Cards

        > We do not need to subscribe to the interfering government methods used in Europe. It is not our way.

        Are you fucking kidding? It is absolutely how things seem to get done here.

        Have an established business, family, young children, but haven't been here for 4 years yet?

        "Oh sorry, we're going to kick you all out, destroy your business, and not care at all."

        That's not interfering?

  26. HmmmYes Silver badge

    Theres a lot more than 3m.

    Have a 100£ registration fee. Thatll cover the cost.

  27. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Big Brother

    Just call it TITSUP

    The Identity Tracking Service Update Program

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Just call it TITSUP

      Or 'Citizens Unified National Tracking System'.

  28. DrD'eath

    65 million EU national in the uk

    While in the EU we are all EU nationals (I wish to stay that way). If the app is launched before brexit, all EU nationals should download it.

  29. Camilla Smythe Silver badge

    Off-The-Shelf Technology

    Stuffed full of trackers and pop-up Advertising then. I think I will write an email to one of those European Council, not Mr Fartage, people and ask whether they have any opportunity to audit the process.

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Guess I am just another sceptic

    Project Management goals:

    Quality

    - there will be 'growing pains' which will be costly to fix, if ever..

    Cost:

    - considering the 'gold chip' companies involved...expect no less than 1 billion. Have never seen Accenture's name on anything costing less.

    Delivery:

    - 2020 for a beta (maybe even alpha) version

    Accountability: bet that none of the companies involved will own any of the failed goals

  31. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken Silver badge

    " [...] Accenture, BJSS, Capgemini, Deloitte Digital, PA Consulting and Worldreach had been signed up to develop the digital application [...] "

    " He estimated the cost would be relatively low for a government IT project, at around £10m-£15m."

    Spot the elephant.

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Should be pretty simple according to govt policy ...

    $ cat input > /dev/null

    $ echo 'nope'

    Though I would't trust any of them to manage even that ...

  33. MonkeyCee Silver badge

    Wishful thinking

    So we're getting a detailed application (85 or 20 pages, depending on what they currently hold on you) that can somehow be accurately filled out in 10-20 minutes?

    That's pretty incredible, as either the original forms are needlessly redundant, or that 10-20 minutes figures is pulled out the arse. Or is what's required in order to get all the work done in time....

    Can the UK government just sack up and issue IDs already?

  34. Miss Lincolnshire

    I've seen the joint ERG / UKIP approved requirement.......

    .......and the first thing the user will have to do is enable location tracking. That will task a Borders Agency drone to track and dispose of Johnny Foreigner at their leisure.

    First incursion on UK territory = tasered, netted, handcuffed and despatched quivering to Calais.

    Second incursion on UK territory = Hellfire

    If you're not local there's nothing for you here We don't want foreigners stealing the precious things do we?

  35. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'll write it...

    A form, on a government hosted website - no need for app. I'll do it for £1m. Reckon I could knock that up in a few months.

  36. Yorkshirefoxy

    Bodes well?

    Perhaps they need to contact Facebook for all the details?

  37. ForthIsNotDead Silver badge
    Facepalm

    WTF?

    It is intended to condense the 85-page permanent residency application into a 10 to 20-minute process involving an applicant scanning in their passport and national insurance number to an online or phone app.

    And you need six agencies to do that, do you?

    I could develop that system - the front-end app, and the back-office systems, with six blokes using nothing more than open-source software, coffee, and a single office.

    It's failed and it hasn't even started yet.

    Then again, this is a government project, so I'd need sixteen project managers to liase with all the government departments that each have competing, overlapping, yet contradictory requirements, associated secretaries to help the PMs, and dedicated legal team to negotiate, manage, and track the contract.

    So, about 60 people to manage the government, and 6 blokes to write the software.

    We're gonna need more coffee.

    You know what? Let the six agencies do it!

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "I guess the complexity will be integrating with other databases"

    Oh, just want to use the data after it's collected? <sharp intake of breathe> That's going to cost you .Gov!

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