back to article Danish Navy expert finds no trace of exhaust gas in private submarine

A senior Royal Danish Navy officer has disputed Peter Madsen's claim that Swedish journalist Kim Wall's death was caused by exhaust fumes aboard his crowdfunded submarine. The Danish Broadcasting Corporation (DR) reports that, following a study of the submarine, Lieutenant Commander Ditte Dyreborg found no carbon dioxide, …

  1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

    Would appear that Madsen is a lying sack of shit.

    1. Nick Kew Silver badge

      So an ideal candidate for the UK government.

      It seems the Danes, unlike the Brits, believe in real evidence when they publicly accuse someone of murder.

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Unhappy

      "Would appear that Madsen is a lying sack of shit."

      never underestimate the ability of a sharky l[aw]yer to turn what should be an obvious conviction [given the evidence I've read about] into an emotion-based acquittal and/or an endless series of mis-trials.

      [if he sells the sub, maybe he can afford the attornies? but then again, getting the money via kickstarter or gofundme or whatever it was might mean he doesn't really OWN the thing...]

      1. Korev Silver badge

        Realistically, who would want to buy a murder scene?

        1. S4qFBxkFFg

          "Realistically, who would want to buy a murder scene?"

          Plenty of murders take place in homes; most of them aren't demolished.

          If you're satisified with the cleaners' performance, it could be a good deal.

          edit: It's irrelevant anyway - in line with the victim's family's wishes the submarine is going to be destroyed once they're finished with it as evidence. (This seemed odd, legally, to me, but there we are.)

        2. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

          Re: Realistically, who would want to buy a murder scene?

          You've met people right?

          Courtroom for Ted Bundy's trial is packed with women, trying to meet him and give him love letters and wedding-fucking-proposals...and the first thought that enters my mind is, "And I'm not getting laid." What am I doing wrong?

          - Bill Hicks

  2. Steve Todd

    Has he ever come up with a story ...

    that hasn't been subsequently been proved wrong, retracted and then an even more implausible one substituted?

    Last thing I heard he was claiming that the hatch had accidentally fallen on her head.

    1. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

      What's really baffling is why he does not just confess. It's Denmark. What's the penalty for murder in Denmark, a few years in a country club? It's not like Texas where he'd be facing a death penalty that will really get executed.

      1. jonfr

        Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

        It is 16 years in the jail or an infinite detention a maximum security mental institution if the crime is really bad. I guess this goes into the second category. But its up to the judges. It has already been established that Peter Madsen is a sick man and a murder.

        1. Stork Bronze badge

          Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

          To "qualify" for detention he has do be declared insane by shrinks - and apparently it is not as easy as most of us lay persons would expect.

          I think he is likely to receive a life sentence which as jonfr writes typically means 16 years. There are a few exceptions, the best know is this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palle_Sørensen

          1. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge

            Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

            ...and apparently it is not as easy as most of us lay persons would expect...

            Listen well, Blackadder.

            I won't repeat this.

            Put your underpants on your head and stick two pencils up your nose.

            They'll think you're crazy and send you home.

            Right.

            Favour returned.

            Blackadder goes forth - Series 4 Episode 6

            1. Korev Silver badge

              Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

              Wibble

            2. Korev Silver badge

              Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

              For those who don't know what we're on about... (SFW).

              And yes that's "Mr Bean"

              And yes that's "Dr House"

              1. imanidiot Silver badge

                Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

                No, that's captain Blackadder and lieutenant George. Obviously!

            3. Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble? Silver badge

              Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

              @Dodgy Geezer

              I think the phrase rhymes with "Clucking Bell"

          2. S4qFBxkFFg

            Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

            "To "qualify" for detention he has do be declared insane by shrinks - and apparently it is not as easy as most of us lay persons would expect."

            Plus, if I'm understanding things correctly, the "insanity" route can result in a longer detention - so they will be checking whether he's faking, but it'll be the other way round.

            1. phuzz Silver badge

              Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

              In the UK if you are mentally ill at the time of your crime, you can be locked up in a secure mental hospital indefinitely.

              1. imanidiot Silver badge

                Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

                Afaik that is also how it works in Denmark and most other countries. A jail sentence can see you released early with parole and a bonus for "good behaviour". If you go the insanity route your conviction only has a MINIMUM term, and you could be locked away for the rest of your life at the discretion of the doctors treating you. The insanity plea basically is only a good idea if you are indeed so insane you need to be committed because its unsafe to put you in a normal jail. If treatment and coaching will improve your mental health enough to at some point allow you back into society you might get out, but it is in no way guaranteed.

                1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                  Re: Has he ever come up with a story ...

                  Ernest Walter Saunders...He was sentenced to five years' imprisonment, but released after 10 months as he was believed to be suffering from Alzheimer's disease, which is incurable. He subsequently made a full recovery.

                  Not an insanity plea, but still...very creative.

          3. DocJames
            Holmes

            Qualifying for detention on mental health grounds

            So in medical school when doing my psychiatry attachment I asked the forensic psychiatrist (psychiatrist who deals with criminals/courts etc) if people ever really tried to get off jail on grounds of insanity.

            He laughed, and said that only stupid people with no prior criminal experience/jail time tried this, as they were the only ones who didn't realise that it would be much worse in a secure hospital. You wouldn't get time off for good behaviour. If you magically became sane questions would be asked and you'd be back to court. And they were of course easy to spot, by dint of being stupid.

  3. tiggity Silver badge

    When you are in a hole

    Best stop digging.

    If (trying to obey all due legal niceties) it turns out he is lying then does anyone know imuch about Scandi legal system and whether judge (or equivalent) would take a dim view of taht and have ability / inclination to increase the sentence duration / severity?

  4. Avatar of They
    FAIL

    Hope the judge is keeping track.

    Have to ask yourself, why would you claim something you know a proper engineer can prove or disprove so easily. 70 degrees? Presence of soot. Even I could probably do some tests and see if that was true.

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: Hope the judge is keeping track.

      "Lieutenant Commander Ditte Dyreborg found no carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide or nitrogen oxide in the air still trapped onboard."

      Really? None? Wonderful air quality they have in Scandinavia then, I guess the occupants were holding their breath too.

      1. John Sager

        Re: Hope the judge is keeping track.

        Submarines have CO2 scrubbers that would quite possibly lower the concentration to well below atmospheric in the absence of breathing people. However, being a homebrew sub, he could have skipped on that feature.

  5. adam payne Silver badge

    This man should just stick to one story because it's getting confusing trying to follow this. Better still he should tell the truth.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Better still he say nothing because he is a guilty sick fsck sadistic psychopath. Too late now.

      1. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

        ...allegedly

    2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Common issue with pathological liars is that they continue to pile lies on top of lies on top of lies. 300£ million for NHS, Eu invaded by Turks, Novichok definitely produced by Russian state(*) and ordered by Vladimir Vladimirovich himself, you name it.

      It is usually followed by attempts to "edit" evidence. That usually fails - the liars fail to remove all of it. So the first proper forensic scientist/engineering expert to look of it rips it to shreds. Just like in this case.

      By the way, any likeness with current events is supposedly just a coincidence.

    3. JohnFen Silver badge

      "it's getting confusing trying to follow this"

      I don't think it's confusing at all. Everything he's saying is just code for "I'm guilty as hell."

    4. onefang Silver badge

      "This man should just stick to one story because it's getting confusing trying to follow this. Better still he should tell the truth."

      But then Hollyweird can't make a TV series out of it, merely a movie.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm sure their is a plausible explanation for her dying of fumes then decapitating herself on the hatch and ending up in the harbour. Personally I just can't envisage the scenario that leads to this though I'm going to go out on a limb and say he will be found guilty.

    1. onceuponatime

      She was a zmobie and he was trying to save the world!!!!!!!!

      1. Stevie Silver badge

        She was a zmobie

        She was a non-functional cellular telephone? I'm not sure that theory is any stupider than the ones Cap'n Hacksaw has come up with.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        ahh, zmobie, I've seen them they are after my bran. Ain't no way they are shredding my wheat.

    2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Next explanation ...

      He dropped her off at the shore then she dismembered herself, swam back to the sub, poisoned herself with exhaust fumes and hit herself on the head while scuttling the ship. He tried to rescue her, but she escaped into the sea.

    3. Scott 53

      "out on a limb"? I hope that was unintentional.

    4. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      "I'm sure their is a plausible explanation for her dying of fumes then decapitating herself on the hatch and ending up in the harbour. Personally I just can't envisage the scenario that leads to this though I'm going to go out on a limb and say he will be found guilty."

      If you add in a whale and a bowl of petunias, it suddenly becomes quite plausible.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Didn't do it, lawyer fucked me. Guilty and life without parole.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      for the lawyer?

  8. ukgnome Silver badge

    Worse things happen at....no wait....erm...I got nothing.

  9. Stevie Silver badge

    Bah!

    Okay, given that any number of accidents could have happened and probably will be described as having happened to his unfortunate woman before the gavel falls for the last time, I'm still confused as to the rational for the dismembering of the corpse in the aftermath.

    The only one I can come up with is the danger of the corpse rising as a vengeful revenant.

    Although anyone who had seen the documentary Below would think twice about continuing to drive a scene-of-death submarine around even after the possibility of walking undead had been eliminated.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bah!

      > I'm still confused as to the rational for the dismembering of the corpse in the aftermath.

      Try and hide how depraved he really is? Agree though would make more sense if he was potentially facing a death penalty and didn't want to makes himself more eligible but regardless of what he says if he is ever a free man again then Denmark is embarrassing itself.

    2. ckm5

      Re: Bah!

      Apparently they found evidence he had a fantasy about this sort of thing. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/03/danish-submarine-builder-accused-murdering-kim-wall-had-films/

    3. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: Why dismember the corpse ...

      Have you tried climbing a ladder and getting through a narrow hatch at the top while carrying a whole corpse? It is not as easy as it sounds. I recommend looping rope under the arms, climbing up and pulling the corpse up after you but if you forgot to pack rope and all you brought was a bow saw, you just have to make do.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why dismember the corpse ...

        setting sail without rope? WTH? granted he was in a sub, not a conventional watercraft, but I'd still expect rope to be more likely to be on board than a saw.

        1. BebopWeBop Silver badge

          Re: Why dismember the corpse ...

          setting sail without rope? WTH? granted he was in a sub, not a conventional watercraft, but I'd still expect rope to be more likely to be on board than a saw.

          That depends on your intentions.....

      2. JeffyPoooh Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Why dismember the corpse ...

        FK asked, "Have you tried climbing a ladder and getting through a narrow hatch at the top while carrying a whole corpse?"

        No.

        1. John Mangan

          Re: Why dismember the corpse ...

          Is the right (and only) answer.

  10. Natalie Gritpants

    Do I have to move to a new file system on Linux as a result of this?

    1. handleoclast Silver badge

      Re: Do I have to move to a new file system

      You're confusing him with Hans Reiser.

      However, you should probably avoid installing Madsen's alternative to /dev/null. It doesn't do a good job of getting rid of stuff.

    2. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Fair play!

      And to the rest of you commentards I say: this is how you do wit; lateral, unexpected, slightly macabre. To be blunt: 'rounded corners' just ain't cutting it any more.

  11. handleoclast Silver badge
    Coat

    He was making an advert for a mobile phone

  12. EveryTime Silver badge

    I appreciate the thoroughness of the investigation. I'm not sure if I believe that they can definitively say that there was not some exhaust gas in the sub, but it's enough to cast doubt on story iteration #17.

    Of course forgetting to mention the hacksaw action when questioned the first dozen times leaves you on your back foot for convincing people that it was just a regrettable accident.

    1. Stork Bronze badge

      As I would expect it to be a diesel engine you are likely find soot if the exhaust has gone inside.

  13. EarthDog

    what a Danish thing to do:

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0342492/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

  14. rmason Silver badge

    No way!

    I can't believe he was lying.

    Colour me shocked. Next we will learn her head didn't just fall off.

  15. The Nazz Silver badge

    At the risk of sounding extremely harsh ..

    and i'd say this even if it were my own daughter.

    The poor woman is dead, dismembered, the guy is so obviously guilty (and unhinged) so why all the thorough investigations and numerous days in court? Yes, they can discount his several ludicrous tales of how it happened but they may never quite determine precisely what did happen and will still end with the same conclusion. He's guilty.

    Move on and put valuable and scarce resources to a better purpose?

    Not unlike a singular missing person enquiry here in the UK.

    1. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: At the risk of sounding extremely harsh ..

      "why all the thorough investigations and numerous days in court?"

      That the guy is guilty seems inarguable. However, I don't think any court should judge guilt or innocence the same way that you and I do -- with a casual examination of how it seems. Justice is only served through a thorough and impartial investigation. We outsiders have the luxury of taking appearance at face value, but if it's to live up to the ideal of "justice", then no justice system has the same luxury.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: At the risk of sounding extremely harsh ..

        I agree. Unfortunately, the Scottish justice system does not - they recently gave someone a 1 year prison sentence for making fun of Nazis.

        1. Not That Andrew
          Mushroom

          Re: At the risk of sounding extremely harsh ..

          No they didn't. They fined him a couple of hundred quid. He wasn't making fun of Nazi's he was ridiculing concentration camp victims. And what was someone "making fun of Nazis" doing speaking at a neo-Nazi rally?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: At the risk of sounding extremely harsh ..

      TN asked, "...why all the thorough investigations and numerous days in court?"

      It's not *that* expensive. The investigator spent maybe a day or two testing the air, a day or two writing a report, and a day or two in court. That's probably less than $10k.

      Well worthwhile. Even with all the other expenses.

      Heck, at my company we might spend weeks investigating to find a replacement battery (for a complex avionics system). $40k studies are common.

  16. John H Woods Silver badge

    @JohnFen

    Tried to upvoted you but got a pop up saying "Oops, alert the Moderatrix, the coders need whipping"

  17. Dodgy Geezer Silver badge

    Next question from the prosecution...

    IF... she hit her head on the hatch, and then died from CO poisoning, then WHY did you cut her body up into pieces and scuttle the submarine?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Next question from the prosecution...

      He was trying to remove the poisoning from her body and he believed the submarine was evil. The reason she showed no signs of the extreme temperature was due to her eating ice cream just before the accident and the reason for no trace of the CO2 in the submarine was because he had a lot of potted plants aboard which absorbed it.

      Remember, innocent till proven guilty.

      1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

        Re: Next question from the prosecution...

        Remember, innocent till[sic] proven guilty.

        In the eyes of the law.

      2. Santa from Exeter
        Headmaster

        Re: Next question from the prosecution...

        Remember, innocent till^H^H^H unless proven guilty.

        FTFY

  18. Cuddles Silver badge

    Seems unlikely

    "found no carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide or nitrogen oxide in the air"

    No carbon dioxide in the air? That's simply not true. I can't read Danish to see what the original report says, but I assume it is supposed to say something along the lines of there not being elevated levels compared to normal atmosphere, and has been mangled by a journalist at some point.

    1. Sweep

      Re: Seems unlikely

      I speak Norwegian, not Danish, but they're similar enough.

      From the original language article:

      ""Der var intet CO, CO2 eller NOX i luften, hvilket der ville have været, hvis den havde kørt med udstødningsgasser", siger Ditte Dyreborg." = "there was no CO, CO2 or NOX in the air, which there would have been if it had been run with exhaust gases, says Ditte Dyreborg".

      She does appear to say that there is no (intet literally means nothing/ zero) CO etc in the air but she does presumably mean that there weren't the levels expected if the story hadn't been bollox.

  19. spold Bronze badge

    If you decide you really only need it for one journey then I guess you pocket all the crowdsourced funding and buy that cheap Död Submarine from IKEA.

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