@ Loyal Commenter
"The 'demand' for money, is for the amounts we have already committed to the EU budget until 2020. Well, actually, for less than that."
Lets start from the absolute fact. The EU is entitled to nothing (and the UK too). We walk away with no deal the EU is entitled to squat. They dont have to like it but they are entitled to zip. That is the cold hard fact that they either accept or suffer but that is it full stop. That is why there is negotiation to leave. The EU wants to spend money, they committed an amount of money they expected us to pay, and if they want money then they need to negotiate for it. They dont have to like it but thats the reality.
"The analogy is going to a restaurant with a group of people, agreeing to split the bill, ordering all the most expensive stuff on the menu and then deciding you don't actually want to eat and you are going to leave without paying because you saw another restaurant down the road you prefer the look of."
Ok, but that is a bad analogy as we have been a net contributor and our contribution abused by them making agreement with our government then breaking the agreement. The EU has enjoyed our wallet all meal as they keep ordering and now we decide to get up and leave they cry we need to leave them some money for them to keep eating. Much better analogy. Far closer to the truth.
"The Irish Border issue is not a demand from the EU"
Then you need to recheck because your wrong. The UK has put offers forward for the EU's absolute demand for a border, offering soft bordering. A treaty allowing their trade would also be possible if the EU would agree. Except their latest demand (again) is a hard border. Or in Trumps words- put up a wall and you will pay for it. Aka we laugh, EU looks foolish and if the EU really want one they can make it.
"Sovereignty - we never 'lost' it."
Really? So we didnt give the EU to handle our trade deals (removing our sovereignty) or give the EU to right to make laws for us (removing our sovereignty) etc? You are wrong.
"The EU isn't going to accept that the rights of its citizens be administered by a UK court"
Then the EU can bend over and shove their demand somewhere it probably wont fit. The EU will have the same level of rights/powers as other foreign countries. If that isnt enough for them then they are reaching, and may want to consider negotiating. Otherwise they are like anyone else, they are not special. It is up to the citizens where they want to be not the EU.
"You are clearly an erudite individual, and your insistence on arguing your same points indicates that either you genuinely believe that brexit is a good thing for the country"
Thank you and I do. I dont care if the EU wants to federalise or whatever, I just dont want us to be part of what the EU is as it is which isnt very good. I honestly hope the EU fixes its massive problems for the benefit of their population but also because even outside the EU what happens in Europe will have an affect on our country, I want them to succeed as I want us to succeed. But Europe is not the EU, the EU is in multiple crises and doesnt have the support of the populations behind it. I was one of those horrible, retarded, idiot eurosceptics when we had the same debate over the Euro. I was also on the right side of that argument and the 'smart' people vanished under their self-righteous rocks. I have been here before on the unpopular side of the debate, but based on facts.
"despite the fact that none of the well-prepared arguments for it stand up to scrutiny"
Which one doesnt stand? I have argued this out plenty on the basis of economy, trade, sovereignty, immigration and democracy. I have factually discussed the crises of the EU/Eurozone and why it is a bad project unless it actually fixes itself. And yet you are one of many who say the arguments dont stand when all I do is prove wrong the many remain arguments that do not stand and mine have yet to be refuted. Its almost like repetition of that lie gives some solace to a lack of actual fact.
"This suggests that either you are an idiot who has fallen for all the propaganda coming from those with clear vested interests"
I like that someone who disagrees with you but refutes your clearly incorrect statements is an idiot. How can I seriously respond to that?
"or you are one of that group, so maybe you are not one of the idiot brexiters"
So the alternative to idiot because I dont agree with you is idiot because I dont agree with you. Not a lot of wiggle room there. I have had the pleasure of discussions with few remainers who have facts and reasons for wanting to be in the EU but weigh the costs/benefits very differently in their opinion. And I can disagree with them but respect their view because at least it makes sense. Yet most comments I respond to are the same repeated lies or mistakes often by the same people who seem factually deficient yet certain they are right and leavers are idiots.
"insulting term 'remoaner'; thus the rejoinder is 'brexidiot'. Suck it up."
I am not a fan of those terms. Brexidiot amuses me as eurosceptic did but the tribal stupidity doesnt get anywhere, discussion does. I prefer leaver/remainer although I do occasionally grit and say brexiter.
My opinion of brexit is it is a good thing. I am not a fan of racists/xenophobes regardless of them voting remain or leave. As I have said a few times (especially when the result was in) that the outward looking remain voters should band with outward looking leave voters and ignore the racists left over. There are decisions to be made and we need to keep the gov from doing something stupid like being protectionist or racist. I would prefer not having to repeatedly correct the propaganda and mistakes but unfortunately some people are determined. I would prefer you wernt one of them because you do seem to put some effort to reasoning out your comments and aiding discussion.