back to article Sci-tech wants skilled worker cap on PhD and shortage jobs scrapped

Forty industry bodies have called on UK government to rethink its cap on skilled workers' visas, which has been reached for the last three months running. Skilled non-European workers wishing to work in the UK must enter through the Tier 2 (General) Visa route, which is used for most hires in the science and tech sectors, as …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You need only to look at the salaries of most STEM workers to know: there is no skills shortage, not enough to trigger supply-and-demand driving up wages.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      STEM

      If you take a broad general brush yes, but if you are looking for specific skills, expertise & experience then I'm sorry but you're wrong.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: STEM

        Just pay them £159,600, no problem.

        Or you could always, I dunno, train someone already in the UK to do the work?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: STEM

          Maybe we could train UK people to do the work. However, you run into problems straight away with this way of thinking - we haven't and the companies/organisations need the talent now, not in 4 or 6 years time.

          Why haven't we trained UK people to do the work in the past? Why bother if there is a ready supply of grads or PHds around the world that you don't have to spend money on to educate. Economic "Short termism" as usual, "it costs to train so we won't". This was seen coming in the nineteen eighties and nineties as businesses found themselves struggling to survive the economic upheavals of the times and cut the their training budgets to preserve the bottom line. One of the results of this was the reliance on already trained people to fill the vacancies and there were a lot of those available all over Europe and the Commonwealth. When the economy improved in the nineties and 2000's the habit was formed and business still saw training as a loss rather than an investment (especially given that people doing HE got loans to pay for their education now).

          And while we talking about HE, the introduction of "profitable" courses at many HE establishments that did not address the needs of the business and industry but created a lot of qualified people that can't get appropriate careers now.

          Of course, this is a broad strokes picture, with a degree of cynicism thrown in. There are companies that have invested in people and skills, especially in the engineering world, and these are reaping the benefit of a well trained workforce and creative people. The fact remains though, we do not have enough of the appropriately trained and educated people to cover the needs of our businesses and organisations and given the successive policies of various colours of government over the last 30 years are not likely to any time soon.

          AC because I'm a bit close to the world of training and this might bite me in the arse later.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: STEM

          Sorry that won't work. Ever since Big Tons' edukashon, edukashon, edukashon, push the universities have pandered to the lowest common level possible rather than the highest level of ability which means that STEM subjects have to take a back seat.

          I doubt that there is a university in the UK now that could produce the level necessary because they don't have the staff to do it.

        3. CheesyTheClown

          Re: STEM

          That’s not how Ph.D. works. No matter where you go in the world, Ph.D.s are generally not local. This doesn’t mean low wage workers. It means people who are willing to focus and devote 7 or more years of their lives to a single specific area of research. You don’t make these people, you desperately try to recruit them.

          Granted many Ph.D.s are absolute shit. This is obvious when you interview them. For example, I met a Political Science Ph.D. candidate who spent 7 years studying to be part of Middle East peace talks but never learned to read Hebrew or Arabic.

          To find genuine Ph.D.s you are shit’s creek if you try to go local. People need to be willfully my to obsess over something for A LONG time and display discipline, talent, and most importantly, the willingness to leave everything else behind to do what they are most passionate about. As such, you would never want to hire a local Ph.D.

          Of course, there may be exceptions, but generally local Ph.D. Are rarely of use outside a sale meeting.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: STEM

        If you take a broad general brush yes

        No need to take a brush. I have reached the point where anything coming from a British company is an immediate cat > /dev/null

        There is an inch thick armoured glass ceiling for all technical roles which can be bypassed only via managerial frontal lobotomy and growing pointed hair.

        The salaries offered for technical roles are > 30% less than what I get working for "foreigners".

        So no thanks. F*ck off and come again when you start valuing "PhD level jobs" instead of "MBA level jobs"

      3. william 10

        Re: STEM

        Kind of both correct. It would seem the state is doing it's part theres enough grad's - it then up to industry to do its and provided the specific skills, expertise & experience.

        I have found industry exceeding bad at providing the correct train, having worked as a contractor for many different business both large and small - theres a lot of talk but this does not translate into action on the ground.

        During 2015/16 I was working for a major UK Telco, HR never asked what skills my team would need or what new technologies we where planning to use in 6, 12 or 18. I could have provided this information up front and they could have started the recruitment/training process. Instead they where only interested in using out sources who brought people in via the Tier 2 (General) visas, these people had the same skills set as our grads. It would have been cheaper and more productive for them to recruit grads straight from a number a universities and agreed with those uni's the skills set required.

        It's not difficult to provide the expertise & experience it just requires the will of business.

        1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

          Re: STEM

          It's not difficult to provide the expertise & experience it just requires the will of business.

          Absolutely identical observations while working for a UK company 2001-2007. No act of god would have been sufficient to make the CEO hire a UK graduate regardless of the fact that a back of the fag packet showed them to be ~ 60% of the cost of imports from soft and humid climes.

      4. TheVogon Silver badge

        Re: STEM

        "but if you are looking for specific skills, expertise & experience then I'm sorry but you're wrong."

        Really, tell me a technology job that there isn't a market rate for where you could get someone?

    2. LucreLout Silver badge

      You need only to look at the salaries of most STEM workers to know: there is no skills shortage, not enough to trigger supply-and-demand driving up wages.

      Which is why the pigs are squealing so loudly, because we're right on the verge of that trigger being pulled in a number of occupations. That in itself is not an actual problem - employers have simply got to get used to the idea that a highly qualified software engineer is worth more to their business than that engineers manager, and rework their payscales.

      We shouldn't be entertaining this nonsense unless everyone with a PhD or MSc in their field is already earning a 6 figure salary, then you might be able to demonstrate a shortage. Until then, the shortage is illusory and being pumped up in an attempt to lower the salaries of skilled workers.

      1. LucasNorth

        If you think that someone with a PhD needs to be earning over 100k to demonstrate that there is a skills shortage then you are living in a fantasy land

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          "If you think that someone with a PhD needs to be earning over 100k to demonstrate that there is a skills shortage then you are living in a fantasy land"

          £100k is still less than the figure needed to escape the cap so it appears to be approaching the territory that the govt reckons would be result of a skills shortage. Unless, of course, the cap is the result of some other criterion HMG is working to and they don't actually mind skills shortages.

        2. TheVogon Silver badge

          "If you think that someone with a PhD needs to be earning over 100k to demonstrate that there is a skills shortage then you are living in a fantasy land"

          Well if you can hire a PhD for less than £100K - then there are clearly employees available.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        " a highly qualified software engineer is worth more to their business than that engineers manager"

        Cant wait for for that day to come. Probably wont though. It goes against the grain of those who can make those decisions.

        My manager is on 10k more than me , has zero technical knowledge , does not participate in any of the tasks the team does. Its a bit of a mystery what he does all day, but he claims to be very busy.

        Minimum wage would be more appropriate imho.

    3. LucasNorth

      Got any source for that supposition?

    4. oxfordmale78

      It is naive to assume salaries are driven by skill shortage alone. They are capped by the price-demand curve of the final product. If you need to pay to much for a STEM engineer, your product will no longer be competitively priced compared to the rest of the market and your sales will decline. At a certain price point, it is not even worth investing and you are better off to invest your money in treasury bonds or some other safe asset.

      1. oxfordmale78

        Those thumbs down voters, this is economic reality. Are you really going to pay £10,000 for an average flat screen television ? Or a £1,000,000 for your next car ?

      2. SEPAM

        >It is naive to assume salaries are driven by skill shortage alone. They are capped by the price-demand curve of the final product.

        I checked the salary level for my (former) occupation in China. It was substantially higher than here. If you have good people you will be able to make a great product that will sell in great volumes and salaries will become an insignificant expense.

        I note you do not have the same concerns that managerial salaries will be damaging to end product prices.

        1. Jaybus

          >I note you do not have the same concerns that managerial salaries will be damaging to end product prices.

          No, but it is implied. The executives involved would never consider raising their underlings salaries without a commensurate raise for themselves. Though a 20k raise in each of their 10 PhD's salaries would only be 200k, it would, in practice, cause an increase of several million.

        2. TruthSayer2017

          C'mon he is just jealous.

    5. TheVogon Silver badge

      "Limit 'undermines business confidence', groups tell UK.gov"

      Translation : Having to pay market rates to attract talent undermines our executive bonus pool.

    6. TruthSayer2017

      Whoever misinterpreted the article

      First do your research. The demand supply issue, "affecting" the stem people is "not due to" STEM people. The problem described in the article is that you have a cap of approximately 1500 Non-EU people each month. Out of these approximately 1200 each month are filled by people in "Shortage Occupation List". So what is a shortage occupation list. Google it you would know. But in short it means a NHS nurse earning £21,000 a year is equivalent to someone earning £151,000 a year (because it gives you 130 extra points). Similar process is in place for PhDs, albeit with different points. So if two third of people applying are on Shortage Occupation lists, this skews the quota in their favour. In a worse situation, it would mean that people in STEM jobs earning £21-50,000 don't really stand a chance. So basically you have a situation right now that apart from 30 odd people a month, you can't really hire STEM people. Think about it, 30 STEM people against thousands of nurses, whose real worth is probably £20-30,000. Would you like to be treated by such nurses or those from the EU, that's another question. Think about it, the government in someway is only concerned about reducing the NHS cost. They don't care about quality nurses from the EU or quality people in STEM and other businesses. I have already heard horrid stories about nurses with fake degrees.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      There is a shortage, specifically for top qualified that can be paid a pittance.

      it is a core in financial theory that supply will be found if the price is right. Strangely this is never a topic when STEM is discussed. The late Lord Weinstock had a lot of contempt for STEM, his thinking clearly lives on.

  2. Aitor 1 Silver badge

    shortage

    Shortage is defined in a market by prices. If salaries are low, there is no shortage.

    1. Snorlax Silver badge

      Re: shortage

      How much does a nurse earn in the NHS? Peanuts.

      And there is a shortage of nurses which isn't going to improve any time soon...

      1. LucreLout Silver badge

        Re: shortage

        How much does a nurse earn in the NHS? Peanuts.

        Up to a little over £100,000 according to the RCN, and that is basic pay - there's another 50% worth of pension being accrued behind the scenes there too.

        Obviously, before anyone replies, the vast majority of nurses earn nothing like that, however, the vast majority earn rather more than peanuts, especially when the cost of the pension gets added into the mix.

        Yes, most nurses work hard - most people in most occupations work hard. Lets stop the lionising, before we have to compare what a nurse in a hospital earns to a soldier on the battlefield.

        Look at the link provided before assuming what I just said is wrong because it doesn't fit your world view:

        https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-scales-2017-18

        1. Snorlax Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: shortage

          @LucreLout:"Up to a little over £100,000 according to the RCN, and that is basic pay - there's another 50% worth of pension being accrued behind the scenes there too."

          Average salary for an NHS nurse is £23k, so the amount of nurses earning £100k is so small as to be inconsequential.

          @LucasNorth:22k to start and up to 36k. Not quite "peanuts"...

          See above. £23k average salary - a person could make the same money working on a helpdesk, with no college education or responsibility...

          1. LucreLout Silver badge

            Re: shortage

            Average salary for an NHS nurse is £23k, so the amount of nurses earning £100k is so small as to be inconsequential.

            Firstly, which average? Because the average person has less than two legs.

            Secondly, £23k plus the pension is really £34.5k, which is a hell of a lot more than the average salary. Then you need to make some economic allowance for the fact that it is a job for life.

            The net effect of totalling the benefits works out at substantially more than the national average salary, almost 50% more in fact. Yes, on average nurses work hard, but on average, so does everyone else.

            1. Snorlax Silver badge
              FAIL

              Re: shortage

              @LucreLout:"Firstly, which average? Because the average person has less than two legs."

              Be careful when you pretend to be stupid... People might think you are.

              What average?

              Take every nurse in the NHS, add up all their salaries and divide by the number of nurses. That's what the average is...

              "Secondly, £23k plus the pension is really £34.5k, which is a hell of a lot more than the average salary."

              Stop talking bollocks. Who considers a future pension to be a salary? They're two different things.

              1. ZanzibarRastapopulous

                Re: shortage

                > "Stop talking bollocks. Who considers a future pension to be a salary? "

                Those of us who have to pay into a contribution based scheme?

                There's also paid training, and the "key worker" benefits, which have a value.

                This is exactly why the public sector should abandon all these little fringe schemes and stick to a straight salary and DC pension schemes. Otherwise the pay scales are simply not comparable.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: shortage

                  A nurse at the bottom of band 6 will be a couple of years off paying 9.3% towards their pension. That will get them 1/54th of that years salary, adjusted for inflation. A good pension, but cut the bullshit.

                  1. LucreLout Silver badge

                    Re: shortage

                    A nurse at the bottom of band 6 will be a couple of years off paying 9.3% towards their pension. That will get them 1/54th of that years salary, adjusted for inflation. A good pension, but cut the bullshit.

                    And the open market cost of paying out that 1/54th is 50% of their base, not 9.3% of it. You need to factor in the spousal payouts and inflation protection then go work out how much your pension in payment would cost to aquire in a defined benefit scheme. Then calculate how much of your salary you'd need to pay in to be able to afford that total. You will find it is 50% of base. If you can't follow basic financial calculations then STFU and listen to those of us who do so for a living.

              2. LucreLout Silver badge

                Re: shortage

                Stop talking bollocks. Who considers a future pension to be a salary? They're two different things.

                Not in the real world they aren't. You have to take a portion of your base and pay that over into your pension or you'll have nothing when you retire. The Average nurse will have a pension worth north of £10k per year in payment after a full working career, which would require a pot of more than £250,000 to buy. It's not nothing: that public sector workers pretend that it is doesn't make it so.

              3. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: shortage

                @Snorlax

                "Stop talking bollocks. Who considers a future pension to be a salary? "

                i went for a job at CSC where they claimed my total salary was what they paid me plus what they added to my pension, if i chose not to contribute the top amount into my pension i wouldn't get the full amount they said the job was offering. i did not find that out till they sent me the job offer. Luckily a better offer came along, nice building and grounds, weird people.

                1. Snorlax Silver badge

                  Re: shortage

                  @AC:"i went for a job at CSC where they claimed my total salary was what they paid me plus what they added to my pension..."

                  You should have told them you know a guy called LucreLout who'd be happy to work for that kind of pay deal.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: shortage

              You need to take a look at the NHS pension scheme. You don’t have a clue.

        2. Andy Nugent

          Re: shortage

          That link only says that someone on pay band 9 would earn over £100k. It doesn't say how many nurses (if any) are actually earning that pay band.

          1. LucreLout Silver badge

            Re: shortage

            That link only says that someone on pay band 9 would earn over £100k. It doesn't say how many nurses (if any) are actually earning that pay band.

            A fact my post made clear in itself.

            1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

              Re: shortage

              @Lucre

              "A fact my post made clear in itself."

              posting it wasl blatent shock tactics similar to a tabloid newspaper to mention a band 9 nurse salary.

              Its an inconsequential amount of nursesl. Yes , i know you hinted at that , but dosent excuse posting it.

              I'd be surprised if any nurse has ever made that.

              In fact that NHS pay scale table you linked to on the Nurses website isnt for nurses , its for everyone.

              So its not "Technically correct but still a stupid thing to write"

              Its out and out wrong!

              1. LucreLout Silver badge

                Re: shortage

                posting it wasl blatent shock tactics similar to a tabloid newspaper to mention a band 9 nurse salary.

                Its an inconsequential amount of nursesl. Yes , i know you hinted at that , but dosent excuse posting it.

                If you're going to make things up and clutch at straws while I tear down your argument, please can you clutch at the truth rather than a pack of lies?

                I specifically called out that fact most nurses earn no where near the headline figure. I didn't hint at it, I didn't beat about the bush, I outright stated it in the very next sentence after giving the figures.

                That you don't like facts only shows you to be incapable of understanding how arguments are supposed to be constructed, and thus the application of reason over emotion. First gather facts, then analyse them, and form an argument based upon them. You can't just ignore facts because they don't say what you want them to say - you're entitled to your own opinion but not your own alternative facts.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: shortage

          100k is top of band 9. No nurse is on that. Nurses are band 5, a limited number band 6, matrons are band 8a.

      2. LucasNorth

        Re: shortage

        22k to start and up to 36k. Not quite "peanuts"

        1. Aitor 1 Silver badge

          Re: shortage

          So there is no shortage.

          It is the same as saying "there is a shortage of milk", yet prices are about 24-30p a litre for the producer.

          Shortage, real one, would see prices climbing a lot.

          A shortage of nurses, would mean they would earn more than doctors. They don't, therefore there is a shortage "at a set price".

          If I complain about a shortage of petrol, and I say I would gladly pay 80p per liter.. yeah... no shortage.. shortage at my set price.

          Pay more and give better conditions, and more people will become nurses and/or more ppl will go to the uk.

        2. steviebuk Silver badge

          Re: shortage

          But with long hours and no social life. Check out the book "This is going to hurt". Your shift is over and its time to go home, but oh, someones suddenly dying. Do you let them or stay on for another few hours to make sure they live knowing you won't get those hours or money back but still need to be in early for your next shift. Then have a crappy commute because the hospital won't give you a parking space.

          1. LucreLout Silver badge

            Re: shortage

            Your shift is over and its time to go home, but oh, someones suddenly dying. Do you let them or stay on for another few hours to make sure they live knowing you won't get those hours or money back but still need to be in early for your next shift.

            That description, bar the dying part, applies equally to a great many professions and employments. In 20+ years of work I have NEVER had a job where I could leave because "its clocking off time". I applaud the professionalism of nurses working late in much the same way as they applaud my working late.

        3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

          Re: shortage

          22k to start and up to 36k. Not quite "peanuts"

          Sure. That is monkey nuts, not peanuts - for a job which involves shifts, anti-social hours, stress and in some cases life and death of the "customer".

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: shortage

          It is in London. I think they have hospitals there. There is a small increase for London, but still pretty much 22-36. Most nurses are band 5,so will never see 36.

      3. HmmmYes

        Re: shortage

        Average Nurse with 15+ years experience will be pulling in almost 40k.

        Dont fall for that Nurses earn fuck all crap.

        Also the working terms are pretty good. My mate does a 12h shift.

        Oh she works so hard, people cry!

        Nope. She only does 3 12h shifts a week- giving her a 4 day weekend. Sure she works one weekend night a month but thats instead not extra.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: shortage

          No average nurse is a band 7, so no average nurse will be on 40k (the top of a 7 which takes 8ish years). Top of a 6, another 8ish. Top of a 5, again guess what.

  3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    "Jobs on the shortage occupation list"

    Or is that the jobs-that-require-skills-and-experience-at-salaries-UK-PHBs-won't-pay list ?

    I suspect that's a more accurate description of the list.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: "Jobs on the shortage occupation list"

      It always is.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I wonder....

    If people look at the lifestyle you get with 55k here, compared to 40k in India/China?

    1. Korev Silver badge

      Re: I wonder....

      £55k is roughly twice the UK average wage and would put a person in the top 10% of UK earners. I suspect that most people in the UK don't realise how low the salaries actually are especially once the high living costs have been taken into account.

      1. David Nash Silver badge

        Re: I wonder....

        "most people in the UK don't realise how low the salaries actually are"

        *most* people probably do, because they are the ones earning the low salaries.

        It's the top 10% who don't realise that they are in such a small minority.

    2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: I wonder....

      If people look at the lifestyle you get with 55k here, compared to 40k in India/China?

      Look at it as ratio to national average salary. It is the most clear indicator of "attractiveness".

      UK - average software developer salary to national salary is: 1.1 the national average. Probably the lowest one in Europe.

      Eastern Europe - average software develoepr salary to national salary is: 2.4 the national average (using Bulgarian and Romanian data).

      There is nothing more to discuss really - you cannot attract anyone with that any more in the first place.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Lift the cap on management visas too, then we’ll see where the real shortage is, and who the overpaid really are

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Can’t we just deport the managers we have rather than letting more of them in?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Lift the cap on management visas too, then we’ll see where the real shortage is, and who the overpaid really are

      You did not specify which direction is the visa and which country needs to lift the cap. I have heard that the Nork Coal industry is always in need of more labor.

  6. Adrian Montagu

    My partner's son has a Phd in materials science and is engaged to a Chinese girl who is also a Phd in materials science. Britain educated her. She is currently employed in the UK but the visa / work / residence situation is complicated. One depends on the other to some degree.

    My question is. Why did we bother to educate her if we are to make it difficult for her to live and work in this country?

    Are we educating Chinese for the benefit of China? That seems like a strange way of handling things to me. Surely we must educate people for the benefit of THIS country.

    1. hplasm Silver badge
      Childcatcher

      Re:My question is.

      "Why did we bother to educate her if we are to make it difficult for her to live and work in this country?"

      Because foreign students pay £££££££££££££££££ to prop up our educational

      establishments (...bosses salaries).

      1. Lars Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: Re:My question is.

        "Because foreign students pay £££££££££££££££££ to prop up our educational....".

        Something like this then from Yes Minister.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW7mhtp5a5E

        Coffee at the university

    2. Warm Braw Silver badge

      Re: Surely we must educate people for the benefit of THIS country.

      Unfortunately, even the univerisities seem to have decided that education is merely the basis for exploitation. Undergraduates are paying a fortune to be taught by graduates on zero-hour contracts supplementing their miserable income with cleaning and driving jobs. Meanwhile the institutions can cream off fortunes because they have the magic pen that accredits the results.

      The market for "skills" is now so rigged that there's almost no correlation between remuneration and attainment or societal benefit.

  7. Korev Silver badge
    Unhappy

    £55k

    For instance, MP Stuart McDonald said in parliament last month that in December 2017, people essentially had to have a salary of £55,000 or above to qualify for a certificate.

    Which pretty much rules out most science jobs; not to mention other useful people like teachers, junior doctors etc.

  8. Peter Galbavy

    Who defined what a "PhD level role" is? I can see some wonderful loopholes coming with minimum wage but paper qualified jobs becoming common... How much does a PhD cost in come of the less regulated educational establishments around the world?

  9. Simon Ward

    PhD in computational physics, 16 years of commercial dev experience - unemployed since the end of December.

    Go figure ... the PHBs aren't willing to pay for experience; they see the PhD and think 'overqualified'

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      PhD in computational physics, 16 years of commercial dev experience

      So get a job in City, or start your own startup.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: PhD in computational physics, 16 years of commercial dev experience

        >So get a job in City, or start your own startup.

        Not him, but I have no idea why this was downvoted. Retrain as a patent attorney, in this profession we do appreciate a PhD. And you can get a job in City. Too many think City is business only, in reality it is the synergy between law and business that makes City what it is. And when I say "appreciate" I mean you can get a salary of 100 k £ after qualifying.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Well, the theory I always heard was that MScs have practical skills while PhDs are academic types.

      So, maybe you'd have more success if "forgot" to include your PhD on your CV.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Higher education: The new global economic war

    On the subject:

    https://www.rt.com/shows/documentary/416359-university-students-global-market/

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Higher education: The new global economic war

      As per the link you shared, "There were 13 million university students in 1960. In 2015, their ranks had swollen to nearly 200 million.", let me suggest that the quality of the average graduate is considerably lower than it was in 1960 and possibly through to the mid 1990s. In Canada, I think that's where the big slide started, so about 15 years before that would put you starting elementary school in about 1980 and that's just about when big tax breaks for large Corporations and the wealth started. OBVIOUSLY!, NO! CORRELATION!

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    happy Brexiteers, surely ?

    Since we were told that they weren't in the slightest bit racist, no siree-not us, and the plummeting numbers of skilled EU workers is exacerbating shortages, then their oft-stated aim of actually wanting more immigration from *outside* the EU seems to be coming true.

    I look forward to more specialists from India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Kenya, Brazil, South Africa, and the middle East - perhaps Turkey too.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: happy Brexiteers, surely ?

      And how about from China? US/EU educated ....

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. LucreLout Silver badge

      Re: happy Brexiteers, surely ?

      Since we were told that they weren't in the slightest bit racist, no siree-not us

      FFS give this shit a rest already. You ever wonder why grownups think millennials are whinny?

      I voted for Brexit and it has nothing to do with immigration or race. My wife is a foreigner, and my ex-girlfriends I will bet pound to a penny are significantly more diverse than yours.

      I voted for Brexit because I want the UK to be free to sign its own trade deals - 7 years to do a deal with Canada. Canada FFS. Its not like they're unreasonable people!!

      The other reason being that the EU elite are far far too arrogant - the worlds 5th largest economy sends its elected PM to you to negotiate what were, frankly, trivial changes, and you send him home empty handed likee a naughty school boy? No, sorry, that is not acceptable behaviour. There's not one single change on that list the EU wouldn't grant tomorrow if we'd can Brexit as a result - which only further reinforces how shortsighted and inept the EU has become.

      rEU needs urgent reform. Brexit will be the trigger for that, then hopefully we can consider joining a saner club with realistic limits on its political ambitions. I'd rather celebrate the differences between the English and the French than try to force homogeny upon them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: happy Brexiteers, surely ?

        Then you are even more of an idiot than we first thought! :)

        1. LucreLout Silver badge

          Re: happy Brexiteers, surely ?

          Then you are even more of an idiot than we first thought! :) Well, your lass does like 'em dumb. Say hi when you see her.

      2. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: happy Brexiteers, surely ?

        I voted for Brexit because I want the UK to be free to sign its own trade deals

        You're right, after Brexit negotiations with countries like China and the US will finish much quicker. Only the UK won't be signing trade deals, it'll be signing its own death warrant.

        1. LucreLout Silver badge

          Re: happy Brexiteers, surely ?

          Only the UK won't be signing trade deals, it'll be signing its own death warrant.

          Are you always so terrified? Do you really go through life bowing and scraping to others because you're driven more by fear than rationale? Wow.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: happy Brexiteers, surely ?

        @LucreLout

        could not have put it better myself.

        AC as i'm a cowardly Brexit supporter who doesn't want to shout too loud due to all the noise the Remoaners make.

      4. Snorlax Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: happy Brexiteers, surely ?

        "My wife is a foreigner, and my ex-girlfriends I will bet pound to a penny are significantly more diverse than yours."

        lol, we all know you don't have the social skills necessary for a wife and ex-girlfriends.

        Pamela and her five sisters maybe...

        1. LucreLout Silver badge

          Re: happy Brexiteers, surely ?

          lol, we all know you don't have the social skills necessary for a wife and ex-girlfriends.

          Don't sweat it little boy - one day you'll find a girl willing to consent, if only for money.

  12. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Snorlax Silver badge
      WTF?

      @TruthSayer2017

      @TruthSayer2017:"The problem is the EU people who have settled here in tens of thosands, do not work now and claim benefits."

      Any EU citizen who came here, worked and paid his/her taxes is entitled to claim the same benefits as a UK citizen

    2. davenewman

      Why does someone called TruthSayer keep repeating the lie, "The problem is the EU people who have settled here in tens of thousands, do not work now and claim benefits."

      There are detailed surveys of EU nationals in the UK. A higher proportion are at work than the native born population, and a smaller proportion claim benefits. In tax terms they contribute more to the state than our own chavs.

      Would you employ my brother, who left school on the Isle of Sheppey with no qualifications other than how to drink and fight, or a woman from Kyrgyzstan with two MSc degrees in both mathematics and psychology?

      1. LucreLout Silver badge

        Would you employ my brother, who left school on the Isle of Sheppey with no qualifications other than how to drink and fight, or a woman from Kyrgyzstan with two MSc degrees in both mathematics and psychology?

        That depends mostly on whether I'm looking for a bouncer, or a shrink? Each is useful in their own field and similarly out of depth in eachothers.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The problem is the EU people who have settled here in tens of thosands, do not work now and claim benefits.

      Really? Every study I've seen says that EU citizens resident in the UK are more likely to be in work and paying taxes than a UK citizen, and that they have a positive net contribution to local services, particularly as most of them are younger and of working age, and very few OAPs.

      Now EU people are leaving the UK after the referendum because they cannot see themselves settling here in the future and claiming benefits.

      More like they want certainty in their lives and structure. My girlfriend, Bulgarian, living in the UK for 9 years, runs two companies employing tens of people, still has no idea on what basis she will be allowed to stay - it terrifies her.

      PS: Whilst there are record numbers of EU residents leaving the UK at the moment,there are still more people arriving from the EU than are leaving. When you only read the headlines in Daily Mail, you will have these problems.

    4. Dan 55 Silver badge

      So nice you joined today just to post that. Or is it you're embarrassed to associate such twaddle with your regular handle?

  13. AstroNutter

    What's the point having a cap...

    ...if when it starts to take effect, it gets removed?

    1. Geekpride

      Re: What's the point having a cap...

      Because announcing a cap gets positive press in the tabloids. It doesn't matter if the policy makes sense, having an excuse to pose as getting tough on something and getting positive headlines are more important.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The Jacob Rees Moggs of this worlds wet dream

    is a land where you can ship in the expertise you want, treat it like shit because you've stripped human rights away, and get rid of them when they have served their purpose, or start getting uppity over pay and conditions.

    It's a great wheeze. You take their tax and NI, but make sure you never have to pay their pension.

    Even better, they can't vote.

    Trebles all round !!!!!

    1. LucreLout Silver badge

      Re: The Jacob Rees Moggs of this worlds wet dream

      is a land where you can ship in the expertise you want, treat it like shit because you've stripped human rights away

      Yes, because the EU invented human rights when we joined in 1973..... no, wait, you're talking utter utter bollocks. Sorry.

      There are a great many legitimate arguments in favour of remaining in the EU, but human rights isn't one of them. They predate the EU and will outlive it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        RE: They predate the EU and will outlive it.

        I take it you;re posting outside the UK ? Where news of Theresa Mays repeated attempts to remove the UK from the ECHR are legendary.

        1. LucreLout Silver badge

          Re: RE: They predate the EU and will outlive it.

          Where news of Theresa Mays repeated attempts to remove the UK from the ECHR are legendary.

          FFS. Human rights predate the act of which you speak: They predate the whole EU. Or do you consider that they only exist in Europe and nowhere lese in the world and that they began with that act?

          Seriously, get a grip on yourself man. You're letting your fear drive you into paranoia. Its time ot start thinking through your views before posting.

      2. Snorlax Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: The Jacob Rees Moggs of this worlds wet dream

        @LucreLout:"Yes, because the EU invented human rights when we joined in 1973..... no, wait, you're talking utter utter bollocks. Sorry.

        There are a great many legitimate arguments in favour of remaining in the EU, but human rights isn't one of them. They predate the EU and will outlive it."

        Just when I think you can't come out with a more idiotic comment than your last one, you surprise me.

        The EU has given us the ECHR in 1953 and the ECtHR in 1959. UK citizens have had to resort to the ECtHR many, many times over the years to force their own government to respect their rights.

        Since 'we' joined, 'we' haven't contributed anything of note to the field of human rights, either in Europe or anywhere else. David Cameron wanted to repeal the Human Rights Act, remember?

        I think I asked you once already today to stop talking bollocks. Any chance you could go ahead and do that? Cheers

        1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
          WTF?

          Re: The Jacob Rees Moggs of this worlds wet dream

          Quote: The EU gave us the ECHR in 1953

          Ermmm was'nt the EEC established with the treaty of Rome in 1956?

          In any case all this EU/Britexit bollocks is all a distraction from the real reason for needing so many migrants with skills to come here

          BECAUSE THE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE LACK OF SKILLS ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WONT INVEST IN TRAINING PEOPLE.

          ffs it is that simple... companies will not invest in something if they can get it cheaper from elsewhere.... thats why they are shitting a brick over brexit.

          Or as a hungarian collegue put it last year "The best way to see a hungarian doctor now is to move to the UK"

          We are stripping many other health services of skilled staff because we refuse to pay enough and to train enough of our own and that goes from many other trades/professions too

          1. Snorlax Silver badge
            Headmaster

            Re: The Jacob Rees Moggs of this worlds wet dream

            @Boris the Cockroach:"Ermmm was'nt the EEC established with the treaty of Rome in 1956?"

            Ermmm if you must nit-pick, the Treaty of Rome was signed in March 1957

            The EU as we know it today had its foundations in the European Coal and Steel Community, which was set up in the early 1950s.

        2. LucreLout Silver badge

          Re: The Jacob Rees Moggs of this worlds wet dream

          Just when I think you can't come out with a more idiotic comment than your last one, you surprise me.

          really? I'm never suprised at the stupidity and irrationale of your posts. I know the lunacy is coming as soon as I see the poster.

          The EU has given us the ECHR in 1953 and the ECtHR in 1959. UK citizens have had to resort to the ECtHR many, many times over the years to force their own government to respect their rights.

          So human rights oinly began in 1953? Before that people had no right to life - you could just kill them? Seriously STOP TALKING BOLLOCKS. EU legislation applies only in the EU, so Americans have no human rights? Hows about the Kiwi's or Aussies?

          I expect a low quality post from you, nbut now I can't tell if you're trolling, or just genuinely incapable of fact based reasoning.

          1. Snorlax Silver badge

            Re: The Jacob Rees Moggs of this worlds wet dream

            @LucreLout:"So human rights oinly began in 1953? Before that people had no right to life - you could just kill them? "

            Pathetic. Someone tells you that you're wrong so you change your argument slightly and pretend you're right... Is that seriously the best you can do?

            1. LucreLout Silver badge

              Re: The Jacob Rees Moggs of this worlds wet dream

              Pathetic. Someone tells you that you're wrong so you change your argument slightly and pretend you're right... Is that seriously the best you can do?

              I haven't changed my argument at all, where as you badly need to change yours. You seem not to have an argument - you've pulled an incorrect supposition with an incorrect date out of your arse and been called out on it.

              I've already had to tell you twice to stop talking bollocks son, get it through your head this time. You need to come here with a reasoned argument backed by facts - you're not entitled to make them up as you go along. Seriously, this place got along fine for many a year before you started posting and it'll be fine when you stop. Now, back to school and this time try to learn a thing.

              1. Snorlax Silver badge
                FAIL

                Re: The Jacob Rees Moggs of this worlds wet dream

                @LucreLout:"I've already had to tell you twice to stop talking bollocks son, get it through your head this time. You need to come here with a reasoned argument backed by facts - you're not entitled to make them up as you go along. Seriously, this place got along fine for many a year before you started posting and it'll be fine when you stop. Now, back to school and this time try to learn a thing."

                Pathetic. Talking down to someone as if speaking from authority... Is that seriously the best you can do?

                1. LucreLout Silver badge

                  Re: The Jacob Rees Moggs of this worlds wet dream

                  Talking down to someone as if speaking from authority... Is that seriously the best you can do?

                  Your posts demonstrate a level of comprehension, thought, and reasoning that my dog would find beneath him, and that is somehow my fault? Are you sure?

    2. HmmmYes

      Re: The Jacob Rees Moggs of this worlds wet dream

      OK, let me summarise - zero hours contracts, removal of pension rights, signing away of rights...

      Those were all acts done by that Scots loon Brown.

  15. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    It'a good question to ask "We have no skilled people" "OK how much training mony on the table?"

    And listen to the "Errrs" and "Ummms"

    British management.

    Nothing a few pokes with an industrial strength cattle prod wouldn't fix.

    As for JRM An elderly British friend said he used to watch his father on something called "What The Papers Say" (He was the Editor of the Times) and described as "F**king loopy doopy. Absolutely bats**t crazy."

    Being profoundly detached from reality does seem to run in families.

  16. hammarbtyp Silver badge

    Skills are a limited resource

    people who suggest that we should just educate more PHD's probably think the way out of poverty is just to generate some more gold

    1. LucreLout Silver badge

      Re: Skills are a limited resource

      people who suggest that we should just educate more PHD's probably think the way out of poverty is just to generate some more gold

      My main reason for not doing a PhD as part of my career is that the tax system has actively incentivised me to reduce my hours and take benefits other than pay; and I've reached the realistic limits of such finesse. Any significant increase in earnings will go mostly to the tax man rather than me, so what's my incentive?

      I'll probably do a PhD when I retire as a hobby, but I can't see the point of doing one while I'm working. I'll have more time to enjoy the process in retirement and there seems limited economic upside in this country.

      I'm not suggesting we don't need more PhDs than we have, but we absolutely CAN educate more with simple changes to legislation.

  17. Lars Silver badge
    Happy

    The social responsibility of companies

    ".. companies will not invest in something if they can get it cheaper from elsewhere...".

    The mantra, and no doubt the fact, is that companies are about creating wealth for their owners.

    As it is education and social wellfare is largely the responsibility of the society.

    Looking back it wasn't always like that, companies had to take more responsibility because they understood that a healthy and educated workforce was simply needed.

    Universal health care is good example, quoting the Wikipedia:

    "The first move towards a national health insurance system was launched in Germany in 1883, with the Sickness Insurance Law. Industrial employers were mandated to provide injury and illness insurance for their low-wage workers, and the system was funded and administered by employees and employers through "sick funds", which were drawn from deductions in workers' wages and from employers' contributions. Other countries soon began to follow suit. In the United Kingdom, the National Insurance Act 1911......"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

    One example of a director of a company who decided to create a school for kids of his workforce was Emil Molt of the Waldorf-Astoria-Zigarettenfabrik,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Molt

    Hardly the only company of its kind in the world but a school I happen to know the background to as I put two of my kids into a Steiner school and I must admit I think they managed to get through it sane. Something I have started to have doubts about regarding kids leaving that world class Eaton school.

    Finally, nobody is an island, no pun intended.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2019