Oh my fucking gawd/ess ...
We've stopped evolving as a species.
Stop the planet. I want to get off.
The FreeBSD project completely updated its code-of-conduct in early February, complete with a definition of "harassment" that included "Physical contact and simulated physical contact (e.g., textual descriptions like "*hug*" or "*backrub*") without consent or after a request to stop." And as will happen these days, considerable …
I have no problem with text comments being considered harassment after a request to stop, or genuinely offensive explicit messages being unacceptable at all times but asking for permission before ::Hug:: ? Someone in need of a sympathetic hug is probably not in the best frame of mind to be queried on whether it is appropriate.
"I'm loving the outrage but it's a bit vague in it's targetting!"
By the nature of the organisation, it has to be. There are people involved, volunteers, not paid staff, who are from all sorts of cultures and backgrounds. What might be offensive in one culture might simply be the height of politeness in another. eg <loud belch>, yes that was a lovely meal.
This, of course, is all the more reason for any code of conduct to be fairly generic and keep away from specifics do's and don'ts, especially long lists of don'ts.
Code of Conduct.
1. Be polite
2. Don't be a dick.
Then they should just fuck off.
Many of these code project have extensive histories, when you join you abide by the rules that have been established by the group.
Everyone seemed to manage before the SJW's and soy boys came onto the scene, but no these individuals just cannot resist inserting themselves into every process, continually trying to control the way humans reach consensus.
The answer from the group should always be "fuck off you are not wanted here" if you cannot abide by the current group consensus ... then don't come here to contribute.
CLEARLY, there is a bunch of way-too-vocal WIMPS out there who "FEEL" too much and waste time with these 'codes of conduct' when they should be WRITING CODE.
I use FreeBSD because it's a developer's OS. But Snowflakes gotta act like overly senstive self-focused navel-gazers wanting their safe spaces because they can't handle ANY amount of stress. They need a nice BOOT CAMP and a REAL crisis or two to adjust their attitudes. Once they realize that their own personal feelings aren't the most important thing on the planet, they'll GROW THE HELL UP and stop acting like CRY-BABIES!
Alistair, I see the "joke" icon, but I assure you I'm not easily offended.
This entire thread reminds me of Sam Clemens comment: “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”
I've traveled. A lot. I feel no great pressing need to "feel better", but if it helps you, hug away.
I'm a very vivid FreeBSD user and quite frankly I think some criticasters are just as bad as the stuff they criticize here.
You see, there have been several discussions about this and it all boils down to one thing: "But they can ban you whenever they want to!". And "So you can't even hug someone?".
So basically what a lot of offended people are saying is that they'd rather focus on the negative than the positive. Instead of focusing on the (also shared!) intent of the CoC they'd rather focus on "what if...". What could happen if. Oh dear, you could get banned! But tell me: how exactly is this any different from hanging around on their forums (or this forum for that matter!)? If you make a huge ass of yourself you risk finding yourself on the other side of the "Internet police" (moderators/staff) who will indeed show you the door. I'm sure this will even apply to El Reg if you totally overstep your boundaries. I really don't see the problem. Nor do I see much difference from what it was before.
Basically some complain that "politics" slipped in and SJW in specific. And that's where I have to draw the line a little bit. Because from my perspective they're saying that "Just because it looks like SJW it has to be SJW and if it is SJW it is bad per definition".
Let me get one thing out of the way: I also don't particular care for SJW taken to extremes. Take the new Star Wars movie, I really didn't enjoy that because of the massive plotholes and the shallow story telling (if even my gf tells me that: "all the women seem to know whats best, this is just as bad as your "all men know best" kind of movie!" then yeah...). But that doesn't mean that every attempt in creating a better environment is automatically associated with this politically correctness nonsense.
I've been on the FreeBSD forums for several years already (a good 5 years at least) and I have never ever felt the need to apply virtual hugging. Not even if I knew I was talking to a female. I mean, why would I? This is tech we're talking, not My Little Pony for crying out loud.
My problem is that the nay sayers are often just as extreme as that SJW agenda they claim is in affect here. They sometimes make it look as if this CoC is only made to randomly ban people while completely ignoring what the whole intent is. Worse yet: while nothing has happened so far.
Wake up call: there are morons roaming the Internet. There are tards who really have no common sense at all and who will harass others "because", even when being asked to stop. All this CoC does is to give the Foundation a means to put a stop to that if needed. No more, no less.
I also think the nay sayers are hypocrites at times. See, I remember that Drupal incident where a developer got shunned just because he happened to be interested in a kinky form of sex. There was a major outcry and many people we're upset and outraged about his expelling. That wasn't SJW crap, that was merely someone getting framed (the fora he attended had a major rule: privacy. Still someone on that same forum leaked to the Drupal staff) and then got accused of thought crimes (just because he was interested in kinky sex people figured he wouldn't be able to separate business and pleasure, even though that's what he had done for years already). They cried out for a CoC, uuhmmm..
See, the thing which most people are totally overlooking is this: The FreeBSD CoC applies to the project as a whole. Including the team overlooking all this.
I think the CoC is a good thing because now the FreeBSD foundation is not at risk of "Making a Drupal", and I'm really happy with that. Judge people by their performance and how they act instead of judging them by their life style and private fantasies and such.
That is what this CoC is all about. And if you can't handle that... Too bad.
This post has been deleted by its author
I see your 5 years and raise you several decades ...
I've been using and contributing to BSD since before it was called BSD. I personally see the FreeBSD CoC as a complete fucking joke at best, and a guaranteed route to division regardless. It is a document designed purely to exclude developers, not to include them. As your colophon points out quite nicely.
Complicating matters further is that the code is report-driven, so a review team within the FreeBSD team will tackle every report, even if the result is no action.
Quite funny how EVERYTHING now resembles the old politics discussion board cartoons: https://www.politicsforum.org/flame-warriors/
You have to put the onus on people not to offend.
No, the responsibility is shared equally. People shouldn't be intentionally and gratuitously offensive, but there's also a responsibility not to be over-sensitive or to look for offence where it wasn't intended, and certainly not to take offence on behalf of someone else.
"People shouldn't be intentionally and gratuitously offensive"
I disagree with THIS part. I *REFUSE* to go around *AFRAID* to be myself because some FEELING SNOWFLAKE is always passive-aggressive-bullying EVERYONE ELSE AROUND HIM to "not offend".
Joke 'em if they can't take a FEEL! They can BITE MY HAIRY NAKED ASS!!! I mean, what're they gonna DO about it, "beat me up"? Good luck with THAT. I'd probably invite their fair-weather "friends" to watch, and even PARTICIPATE! I haven't beaten on a gang in quite some time... might be fun! [I use THIS comparisons because they're just acting like wimpy kids on the playground, so if you confront them with it, it's fun to watch the meltdown].
It's a fair bet that these over-sensitive easily offended snowflake types have *NEVER* been through *ANYTHING* even *REMOTELY* resembling a *REAL* *CRISIS*. Or even BOOT CAMP, like having a drill sergeant screaming that classic phrase 2 inches from your nose: "What is your MAJOR MALFUNCTION, NUMB-NUTS?" Because, if you can't handle THAT, you can't handle combat. You can't handle a crisis without melting down. That's why they do that to you in boot camp. It weeds out the 'snowflakes'.
"there's also a responsibility not to be over-sensitive or to look for offence where it wasn't intended, and certainly not to take offence on behalf of someone else."
For THAT, sir, YOU deserve a BEER! Hence, icon.
Phil O'Sophical: "No, the responsibility is shared equally. People shouldn't be intentionally and gratuitously offensive, but there's also a responsibility not to be over-sensitive or to look for offence where it wasn't intended, and certainly not to take offence on behalf of someone else."
You've just described the whole social justice/identity politics movement ..
To one person a 'hug' might mean 'sympathy' (over a loss, misfortune, ...) while another might read it as an attempt of physical, sexual, ... closeness. The interpretation might even depend on how you feel about the person saying/hearing the word.
This big problem with this code of conduct is that it places too much weight on the perception of the 'listener' of the comments; a code of conduct should deal with the intent of the 'speaker'.
Add to this that we are dealing with people from all over the world with varying abilities in English/whatever, and who use words that have different subtleties of meaning in different cultures. Just because a geek can speak good techno-babble does not mean that they understand the nuances of all words.
Also we all make mistakes: how often has a smart/funny comment seemed great in your head but you realise a disaster when it comes out of your mouth ?
I am worried that someone will find themselves with a ban and either not understand why or feel that they are maligned by the ban.
I also worry that people will abuse the code of conduct to hurt someone who they dislike.
@ alain williams
"Also we all make mistakes: how often has a smart/funny comment seemed great in your head but you realise a disaster when it comes out of your mouth ?" My wife assures me that many of my jokes are only funny to me. So, I doubtlessly suffer from foot in mouth disease.
As a commenter above and I'm sure I'm misquoting, "Be slow to offend and be more slow in the taking of offense."
This big problem with this code of conduct is that it places too much weight on the perception of the 'listener' of the comments; a code of conduct should deal with the intent of the 'speaker'.
Careful!! The message conveyed is what's received, not what's transmitted, otherwise the spam I receive can be justified as "valuable marketing messages" by the spammer.
who use words that have different subtleties of meaning in different cultures.
Indeed. What's a back rub, virtual or real, and why would I even want one?
Meanwhile in the physical world. If I'm out walking, I'll expect to meet random people and domestic animals.
With my own species I can exchange a friendly greeting. Not all of them, but many are fine with it, and some even like to extend it to a good natter.
With our canine friends, I can exchange something more physical: a pat on the back, a tickle behind the ears, even a hug. Again, not all of them, but friendly individuals will bound up to me and introduce themselves. Obviously no power games, no question of sexual politics, just a physical expression of being friendly.
And I sometimes think, what kind of a world is it where such casual friendship can only come from a different species!
"understand the nuances"
It seems that no matter what you say/write, a bunch of the readers will see nuances where none exist. So I just don't give a rat's ass HOW people might interpret things, and just say what I want.
Given that techno-geeks are probably the ones saying/doing the allegedly 'offensive' things, consider this: Geek and 'sciencey' types typically aren't "feelies". AND, early in THEIR lives someone (a feelie) probably tried to force-feed them Ritalin or diagnosed them with 'Ass-burgers' or treat them like OUTCASTS and blame THEM for how they were treated, and were amateur-diagnosed as having some kind of autism-spectrum disorder, and were told ALL OF THEIR LIVES that "something was wrong with them".
In other words, the SMARTEST people in the world simply REALIZE that all of this "emotional quotient" *CRAP* is nothing more than the RESULT of a bunch of SELF-CENTERED WIMPS telling the REST of the world to "not offend THEM", and SHIFTING THE BLAME out of SELFISHNESS or something worse. I guess it makes them ('teh offended') *FEEL* important by being such a SJW about it. [feelings are SUCH a selfish thing, ya know?]
Regarding the expected downvotes: thank you. In my world, you're proving my point.
... How long before a Xtian manages to put the kibosh on Beastie? The mascot is clearly not allowed under the new code of conduct.
Next up: touch will be removed from -current. Followed closely by unzip, strip, finger, head and mount ...
 But not too close, of course.
Try living in Spain where most greetings with the opposite sex and sometimes with the same sex involves a kiss in each cheek. Or Russia where greetings with women are a kiss/hug and men a handshake/hug.
These things are very much cultural and the people who try to direct PC behaviour only see things from a narrow perspective.
I think a lot of the offense takers need to get out more, if they are nervous about it, I'll give them a hug.
you know, I may know the origin of the phrase "It's not rocket surgery" from a radio talk show host (a lady) a few years back, Ladonna Harvey. [she's currently on the morning show on KOGO in San Diego]
That being said, if you EVAR listened to her show, saying something about how 'incredibly weird' a virtual hug is would be ironic, at the very least.
In any case, what isn't "rocket surgery" is how WRONG these easily offended "bully snowflakes" are, that want to FORCE everyone else around them into making "safe spaces" for them (and all of their SJW targets), most likely because THEY (the 'bully snowflakes') will FEEL so much better about themselves FEEL important, FEEL like they're "doing something good" yotta yotta.
In other words, it's ALL about *FEEL* and *SELFISHNESS* and *SMUGNESS* and being a SOCIAL IRRITANT SJW.
They can *ALL* BITE MY HAIRY NAKED ASS! [that works best when said in 'Bender's voice from Futurama]
Can I give you a hug?
Go on, let me, you know you want to.
It would make me feel really, really special if you agree to a big, big hug.
So just asking permission may be too much in some cases.
In other cases a poster may feel strengthened and supported by expressions of support.
I can't see an "ask first" policy working in any logical fashion because either the answer is "yes" or even asking the question can cause offence.
This looks a nightmare to logically enforce.
On bulletin boards supportive icons are sometimes provided (agree, like, funny, informative, hug) in which case an individual user might be able to disable the option (but only in a direct reply).
Policing text fields (and spelling variations) does seem a nightmare.
I would respectfully suggest a moderation policy where the recipient can flag the content of the post as unwelcome and a repeat is treated as misbehaviour.
A problem with this is that "Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion" constitute harassment.
Well the entire fucking code of conduct reinforces systemic oppression related to neurodiversity as people with Aspergers haven't got a fucking hope of complying with it.
So could the people that wrote and voted to accept this code of conduct please acknowledge that they've already broken it and leave the project.
As an insider....
Yeah, I'm a member of the FreeBSD community and you should have seen the uproar that it caused. Entertaining to say the least. There was no warning, no pretense, nothing to indicate that this was coming down the pike. It was just dropped into our laps by the core team admins with "Here you go." The thread started out with a blatantly insulting picture about the so called new CoC. DutchDaemon let the thread run for 8 pages before he closed it. He said there will be an internal discussion on the topic.
Personally, I do not give a rats ass about the so-called code of conduct. I will continue doing what I am doing which has worked for me for years: Treat people with respect until you have a reason not to. To quote one forum member "If a Joe wants to be called Jane, then call him Jane." Simple common sense.
El Reg, you are a week late to the party. You're slipping. Here's a link to the actual thread so you guys can read it for yourselves: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/is-the-community-become-fragile.64690/
"To quote one forum member "If a Joe wants to be called Jane, then call him Jane."
Calling him Jane is likely to get you into trouble for not calling her Jane. It's a tricky world we seem to have invented for ourselves - or at least someone has invented it for us."
You assume Jane identifies as a woman. *THAT* can get you into trouble. Particularly if you're taking passage on a certertain Firefly...
Yes, a tricky world indeed.
You are missing the case where you have a 'gender fluid' individual who wants to be called Joe some days and Jane the other days, except when it's neither because they can't decide and want a gender neutral or more like gender indeterminate pronoun instead.
And there are codes of conduct in some universities that require you comply with all of the above.
Pity they don't provide a mind reading helmet so you can get it right on a given day/hour.
"Personally, I do not give a rats ass about the so-called code of conduct. I will continue doing what I am doing which has worked for me for years: Treat people with respect until you have a reason not to. To quote one forum member 'If a Joe wants to be called Jane, then call him Jane.' Simple common sense."
thanks for that. I'm encouraged that sanity and common sense still exist in the project, despite the (apparent) attempt at some kind of takeover by a handful of SJW's.
In the SJW world, Jane wouldn't say a thing about being called 'Joe'. Jane would just GET YOU BANNED to SILENCE you, instead... unless Jane liked you, in which case it would never matter. [like on Micro-shaft's forums - I! KID! YOU! NOT! - *THESE* are the kinds of immature head-games these manipulative idiots play! I guess being 'queen bee' in High School wasn't enough]
We need more projects with people like Linus at the helm. THAT would fix it!
"Harassment includes but is not limited to: Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion."
"Unwelcome comments regarding a person's lifestyle choices and practices, including those related to food, health, parenting, drugs, and employment. Deliberate misgendering. Deliberate use of "dead" or rejected names. Gratuitous or off-topic sexual images or behaviour in spaces where they're not appropriate." ref
I wonder what is the correct designation to address furries and yellow-scaled wingless dragonkin?
From a poster in the original FreeBSD discussion
"As a person who probably classified as one in the groups "being protected" it irrated the f**** out of me that I can see people obviously trying to figure out how to talk to me without offending me and it really seems to me like pandering.
I think it boils down to you can't legislate compassion toward others it just ends up doing the opposite."
The pendulum will continue to swing too far to the left, before it starts it's arc back the other way.
God this shit annoys me. Had a quick look through the Geek feminism code of conduct this is based on and came across this gem
COMMUNITY NAME prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. RESPONSE TEAM reserves the right not to act on complaints regarding:
‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’
Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as “leave me alone,” “go away,” or “I’m not discussing this with you.”
Communicating in a ‘tone’ you don’t find congenial
Criticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions
So basically it boils down to we can do whatever the fuck we want because we are special and you dirty whiteys don't get any rights.
Do people really not see that this kind of shit is just going to increase hate against minorities?
They are not even trying to hide their bias by mentioning 'privileged' peoples comfort versus marginalized people’s safety
How about you prioritize treating people equally and fairly and not encourage people to get upset at perceived in injustices? yeah I know, rhetorical question
"marginalized people’s safety"
Unfortunately, this usually translates to:
"We will proactively ban and punish anything we think might possibly have a chance of causing one of our special self appointed victims from ever feeling that someone might possibly disagree with anything they might think, feel, believe, or want, regardless of objective reality."
Yes, there are laws where I live making acts or words illegal based on what the self-proclaimed victim feels, regardless of any issues about reasonableness or objective reality. It says so right in the legislation.
I'm not sure 1984 took it that far.
As a Windows Admin, I have to say nice job Social Justice warriors!
At this rate, you'll have completely killed Open source by 2020, having them devolve into bickering pie fights over respecting peoples pronouns, and driven all the quality coders and app devs over to the dark side.
Doing a better job of destroying OSS projects than Sun, MS and Apple combined!
Apart from the overly specific prohibitions (virtual hugs? Do people not realize how ridiculous that sounds) the worst thing is removing the part about not taking offense where non was intended. Also, designating certain groups as "victims of systemic oppression" - as if free software development was ever a tool of said oppression, gives some people carte blanche to attack people who don't belong to those groups. This has already happened.
I've been a FreeBSD user for quite a long time now, and I was even considering finally contributing to the project by creating and maintaining a few ports for applications that otherwise I would compile manually. Maybe even financially contribute to the Foundation.
But those hopes are dashed. I am not so much upset by the code of conduct than I am the response from the Core team and leaders of the community. I will not take part in or contribute to a project that is primarily backed by such fiendish, divisive people. I get wanting to make sure everyone feels welcome and to stop bad behaviour, but you do not put out a fire with more fire.
Time to give OpenBSD a try, since I've always wanted to give it a shot.
I learned this a long time ago. The definition of actual harassment is if the feminist thinks the guy is fuckable, period. Harassment should go back to the 70's when harassment was straight out asking a woman to screw or threatening her job if she doesn't and that is it. But like the left the goal posts are constantly moving and they say this is all they want then we're adding this and this and this. Hell now the middle republicans politicians are the democrats of the 70's and the democrats are the nutty socialist trying to make the world communist so this is just them putting a nail in the coffin of linux. Problem is there are a lot of fine developers and programmers out there that will fork the linux kernel and say screw this PC bullshit which is going to destroy the community and then a new better community of the rejected people and they will have all the non SJW users as fans and users and the original linux will slowly lose users till the fork is now king. As George Carlin said in the 80's and he was right and on top of stuff as usual "PC is just Fascism pretending to be manners" and that is spot on and he was a strong liberal and hated PC so that says a lot.
Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2020