back to article UK.gov's Brexiteers warned not to push for divergence on data protection laws

British government ministers have been told not to peddle the idea that trade agreements are incompatible with continued compliance with European data protection laws. As the country's ruling Conservative Party continues to grapple with Brexit negotiations and internal frictions, tech industry bodies have said that diverging …

  1. nsld

    All thats missing

    Is 'Deep and Special' in the mix for the full soundbite speech from the Maybot, although she probably used that at some stage.

    20 months post referendum and not a plan in sight, not even a sniff of one, its as if they have no idea what they are doing.......

    If ever we needed a lesson in the importance of the rule of 5 P's its the current debacle around Brexit.

    1. tiggity Silver badge

      Re: All thats missing

      5Ps?

      Surely yo mean 6P?

      P**s Poor is compulsory in the UK version

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Gimp

        "seek a bespoke arrangement..the UK’s exceptionally high standards of data protection,”"

        Are you fu**ing kidding me? Is this women off her meds again?

        This is the country that wants to pimp it's whole medical record system to Google FFS.

        1. Chris G Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: "seek a bespoke arrangement..the UK’s exceptionally high standards of data protection,”"

          Damn! I had just copied that sentence and then saw your comment. Have one on me!

    2. Mike Richards Silver badge

      Re: All thats missing

      Come on, we're going for a strong and stable, red, white and blue, deep (and special), hard, soft, smooth, hard Brexit with no / some / a little / lots / total divergence from the EU / reality with the intention of loosening / strengthening regulation in key areas of agreement / disagreement to bring us into line with trading norms as specified in EFTA / NAFTA / TPT / WTO / Narnia just like the agreement with Canada / Norway / South Korea / the days of Empire - but with knobs on.

      What is so confusing about all that?

      1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

        Re: All thats missing

        The "red white and blue" Berxit is so mixed up it is very much turning out a brown Brexit.

    3. streaky Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: All thats missing

      20 months post referendum and not a plan in sight, not even a sniff of one, its as if they have no idea what they are doing.......

      There is a plan I'll let you into the secret.. it's really complicated..

      Want to know it?

      The UK is leaving the EU. The end. Get over it already, it's happening regardless of what you want. On the what happens next - it's completely irrelevant, the EU doesn't want any sort of deal they've made that clear and for the UK that's far and away the best outcome sooooo.. The negotiations are a complete charade from both sides.

      Before you get uppity downvote me for truth: I'm just relaying reality here, get a grip on yourselves.

      1. Ken 16 Silver badge
        Childcatcher

        Is that you Rees-Mogg?

        Who taught you how to use an electric typewriter?

      2. Ken 16 Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: All thats missing

        I upvoted, because that's an accurate summary.

        The UK is leaving the EU (and other subsidiary institutions that didn't get mentioned in the referendum) and it's happening regardless of what British subjects think and what happens next is completely irrelevant to the original decision or stated purposes.

        The EU would be happy to deal (as an institution) but relies on getting the support of 27 member countries and their sub-national assemblies so that's not going to happen quickly if the deal is different to ones already agreed for other 3rd countries. The UK has a small but powerful clique of MPs who would prefer to leave without a deal so they aren't going to help things along by agreeing to any existing arrangement as all are visibly less beneficial than staying in the EU.

        Too late now, just sit back and watch the car crash in slow motion.

        1. Yes Me Silver badge
          Angel

          Re: All thats missing

          "Too late now, just sit back..."

          It isn't too late. It only takes 350 MPs to fix this. They need some courage (to ignore the Tory and Labour whips) but it's their duty. That's why there's a Renew party.

          1. F0rdPrefect
            FAIL

            Re: All thats missing

            But there is no EU mechanism to reverse article 50.

            And even if we decided that we wanted to stay the terms to remain would probably be worse than those if we leave.

            And that is ignoring the damage it would do to democracy in this country.

            1. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: All thats missing

              >But there is no EU mechanism to reverse article 50.

              Yes there is no formally defined mechanism, however Article 50 doesn't define the contents of the "Withdrawal Agreement", only who has to agree to the contents. Thus it is perfectly possible to have a "Withdrawal Agreement" that agrees for the UK to remain in membership; as T.May said "Brexit means Brexit"...

              1. streaky Silver badge

                Re: All thats missing

                The *only* way for the UK to "reverse" brexit now is to rejoin. Single currency and a 30 year waiting list. Not worth our time even if you're a remainer. I see at least 22 people are easily confused by truth though.

  2. }{amis}{ Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    Fingers in Pies....

    Now we will need to see weather the front bench has the stomach to tell the home office to back down so as not to risk the UK's trade relationship with the rest of the EU going forward.

    1. BebopWeBop Silver badge

      Re: Fingers in Pies....

      Don't worry I believe we have been assured that we can have our data and sell it.

      1. BebopWeBop Silver badge

        Re: Fingers in Pies....

        And of course every one elses......

    2. JimmyPage Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Fingers in Pies....

      Fingers in ears more like.

  3. Gio Ciampa

    "greater freedoms"

    Meaning: "greater bungs from our mates who'll sell on the pleb's data to anyone"

    Case in point - the DVLA - they'll sell your reg number to pretty much anyone as it is (especially those lovely sharks claiming to be car park enforcement agencies) ... I dread to think what they'd do with more freedom.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "greater freedoms"

      Case in point: I registered the death of an uncle at 11am at the Registrar's Office, by 3pm the aunt's phone was ringing - sales calls from representatives of the death industry... We were particularly amused by the US funeral parlour's call...

  4. Tessier-Ashpool

    The Law of Unintended Consequences

    ...says that Liam Fox's carpet will be covered in pieces of toast butter-side down.

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: The Law of Unintended Consequences

      I thought the traditional covering of the season is the cake which we are somehow having and eating at the same time.

    2. Trumpet Winsock

      Re: The Law of Unintended Consequences

      Ah, the "Disgraced former Defence Secretary Liam Fox" to give him his full and proper title.

      I just wish the press would always quote his full title when referring to him, just to remind people what a little shit he is.

  5. Warm Braw Silver badge

    BoJo's divergence priorities

    ... are - according to the FT's reporting of his recent "major" speech - fishing quotas, the banning of live animal transport, value added tax rates on domestic fuel, and the need for environmental impact assessments, covering newts and snails, for new houses. Oh, and new banking products.

    Meanwhile, almost everyone with an economic interest in the outcome of Brexit is lobbying hard for everything else to stay the same. Is the only concrete result of Brexit going to be that we have taken back control of our ability to displace amphibians and gastropods?

    1. Peter2 Silver badge

      Re: BoJo's divergence priorities

      Meanwhile, almost everyone with an economic interest in the outcome of Brexit is lobbying hard for everything else to stay the same.

      Obviously?

      Anybody doing well at the moment wants to continue doing well. People who might do well as a result of future changes (ie, imposition of tarrifs making it attractive to make things in the UK/fishing quota changes) aren't doing well at the moment, and therefore don't have huge amounts of money to spend in lobbying/bribing politicans to pay attention to them.

      1. Warm Braw Silver badge

        Re: BoJo's divergence priorities

        people who ... don't have huge amounts of money

        I'm afraid if you're going to invest in manufacturing in the UK you're going to need money, unless you're planning to live off the profits from hand-turned chair legs. This is the problem with the Brexit fantasy, it assumes that some new economic nirvana can somehow spring from nothing.

        Nissan alone employs around 7000 people in Sunderland and around 20,000 in its UK supply chain. There are approximately 11,500 fishermen in the entire UK. There's no rational argument to disadvantage Nissan in order to increase Britain's Fairisle Sweater production.

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "Nissan..employs around 7000 people in Sunderland and around 20,000 in its UK supply chain."

          But don't worry, Brexit will soon fix that and those oppressed workers will soon be "Taking back control" of their leisure time.

          Never forget this BS was all about stopping defections from the Conservative party and killing UKIP.

          Everything else is just TPB* BS

          *Tory Posh Boy.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          but Britain can harness the white heat of the technological revolution

          to sell new and innovative products to the Empire and the World!

    2. Adam 52 Silver badge

      Re: BoJo's divergence priorities

      "Is the only concrete result of Brexit going to be that we have taken back control of our ability to displace amphibians and gastropods?"

      Unfortunately not. The concrete results already are a mad woman as Prime Minister, economic slowdown, higher prices, more racist violence, loss of skilled workers and an erosion of civil liberties. And that's before we've even left.

      1. Warm Braw Silver badge

        Re: BoJo's divergence priorities

        a mad woman as Prime Minister

        Back to the 1980s, already, then...

        1. Professor Clifton Shallot

          Re: BoJo's divergence priorities

          Although Maggie got the UK into a the Single Market.

          I don't know why Remainers don't make more of the fact that Brexit is tearing up Thatcher's legacy - it seems to me there's considerable overlap of the Brexit and Thatcherphile areas of the Venn diagram whose loyalty to the former might be tested.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: BoJo's divergence priorities

            As bad as the “government” are, the “opposition” seem to be as clueless.

          2. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: BoJo's divergence priorities

            >Although Maggie got the UK into a the Single Market.

            No, she was one of the founders of the European Single Market, largely because it would be helpful to the UK's export trade. So it is even more concerning that people haven't been using this against the Conservative party. In some respects, Margaret Thatchers statue should be placed in Parliament Square, but in a position where MPs are constantly reminded of her.

            The laugh is that Maggie, managed to change the EEC in fairly short time; something Brexiteers say is not possible to do with the EU...

            Additionally, whilst she didn't want to be part of the EU political union, she was sufficiently astute to realise that the UK's interests would be best protected by being a member of the EU and so having a place at the EU policy-making table. The laugh about this is today we have a cabinet of supposedly intelligent MPs and an expensive Whitehall department who having spent umpteen months grappling with Brexit, all of whom seem to not have grasped this simple fact.

    3. Mike Richards Silver badge

      Re: BoJo's divergence priorities

      ' Is the only concrete result of Brexit going to be that we have taken back control of our ability to displace amphibians and gastropods?'

      And sell them dodgy mortgages for their new homes.

  6. iron Silver badge

    If the UK had more lax data protection rules than the EU it wouldn't make a difference. Anyone wanting to do business in Europe has to comply with GDPR no matter where in the world they are based so UK businesses would end up with two different data protection schemes that they have to comply with, making the whole thing cost even more than it will with GDPR alone.

    1. Nick Kew Silver badge

      That applies in all areas of regulation for anyone trading in both UK and EU. As soon as our regulations diverge from theirs, it's a doubling of Red Tape. Particularly onerous in areas where compliance costs millions - like getting new medicines approved.

    2. codejunky Silver badge

      @ iron

      "UK businesses would end up with two different data protection schemes that they have to comply with, making the whole thing cost even more than it will with GDPR alone"

      Doubt it-

      Business not dealing with the EU= lax rules.

      Business dealing with the EU= GDPR.

      Business dealing with anyone other than EU= whatever their laws require.

      Businesses trading in the world must meet the requirements of the countries they trade with, EU or not. So trading with the EU would be like trading with anywhere else in the world.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: @ iron

        Wouldn't work. The EU would insist the very least on a personal data firewall between businesses not dealing with the EU and businesses dealing with the EU, and it'd probably be easier just to say the UK is considered a non-GDPR friendly country unless regulations match the GDPR.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @ iron

          @ Dan 55

          "The EU would insist the very least on a personal data firewall between businesses not dealing with the EU and businesses dealing with the EU"

          You mean different businesses? Some businesses doing business with the EU and others not? That oddly is a very correct statement even now. But only those doing business with the foreign country need follow the rules of the foreign country, as we do with the rest of the world.

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge

            Re: @ iron

            Please tell me you are aware that businesses sell people's personal data on to other businesses, right?

            But only those doing business with the foreign country need follow the rules of the foreign country, as we do with the rest of the world.

            No, businesses in the UK that hold extra-EU data still have to follow the DPA and businesses in the UK that want to store people's personal data extra-EU have to have a legal framework like Privacy Shield (which isn't worth the paper it's written on, but anyway).

      2. strum Silver badge

        Re: @ iron

        >Businesses trading in the world must meet the requirements of the countries they trade with, EU or not

        I keep seeing this garbage.

        No business only does business with one other business. There are chains of commerce, sometimes involving dozens of businesses, often crossing many frontiers. None of them can drop their standards below the highest level encountered.

        Brexit isn't a get-out clause for that, it's a locked-in-without-representaion clause.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @ iron

          @ strum

          "I keep seeing this garbage."

          And it is garbage to you because you dont seem to understand it.

          "There are chains of commerce, sometimes involving dozens of businesses, often crossing many frontiers"

          A concept which breaches outside the walls of the EU. If the EU exists purely on its internal resources it turns into the USSR (expanding to claim more resources but not developing). So to claim the world doesnt work unless it is within the borders of the EU is to exclude the world from existing.

          "None of them can drop their standards below the highest level encountered"

          Hmm. I see the misunderstanding is strong. I want food. I buy food, say from a country with lower standards than the country I sell to. But what I sell to that country is compliant with that country. The buyer gains to their standards, I gain to my standards, the food supplier gains also. Apply to a world of many transactions of many services and products where the EU has its little borders of standards (not mocking) and all the other countries with their own little borders of their own standards. Your claim suggests nobody does business. You are wrong.

          "Difference is, we have never had any say in those standards. We are surrendering our say in the standards of the world's biggest market."

          Nooooo, dont be so wrong. We are not surrendering our say in the standards of the US and China. We have no say over their standards! Even the EU doesnt. Their standards are up to them, the EU's up to the EU and they negotiate trade to meet a set of agreed standards (acceptable either way). The only standards we might have some influence on in the EU is possibly the EU standards but 1/28th of an influence but bound by all. We leave and we influence 100% of the UK's standards.

    3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "If the UK had more lax data protection rules than the EU it wouldn't make a difference. Anyone wanting to do business in Europe has to comply with GDPR no matter where in the world they are based so UK businesses would end up with two different data protection schemes"

      ?????? If we had more lax data regulations in the UK than GDPR we'd then have two schemes, out own and GDPR. If we stick with GDPR we have one.

      And do you want to have less good protection of your personal data? If so, why?

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        @ Doctor Syntax

        "?????? If we had more lax data regulations in the UK than GDPR we'd then have two schemes, out own and GDPR"

        And yet there are a lot of countries in this world, each with their own standards and laws, each trading with each other. I suggest you and Dan go suggest the world submit to the warm embrace of the EU. Go on it will be funny.

    4. Roland6 Silver badge

      >Anyone wanting to do business in Europe has to comply with GDPR no matter where in the world they are based so UK businesses would end up with two different data protection schemes that they have to comply with

      Well given it is almost a certainty that UK law will be found to be inadequate the only real solution will be to have an EU registered and located business that does all the GDPR compliant work, complete with all the necessary 'walls' between EU and non-EU worker access to data; leaving the UK operation to deal with UK/non-EU work.

      If you need a real-world example, just look at the EU-US data protection relatonship...

      Naturally, few if any jobs will leave the UK, but all the new jobs will be outside of the UK...

  7. James 51 Silver badge
    Trollface

    Of course, we could go one better an have higher privacy standards and not allow the EU to hold UK citizen's information until they meet our standards.

    I would have used an icon with ET riding a unicorn over a rainbow towards a pot of gold but instead semi-seriously, see icon.

  8. Halcin

    So, Everyone is advocating we comply with EU regulations, but without the ability to effect what said regulations are?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Until we disagree then they impose tariffs as punishment and we all start paying through the nose for perfumes.

    2. James 51 Silver badge
      Boffin

      @Halcin, exactly. Nice to see you've got the grasp of things. Just as we have no say on the standards on the stuff we export to the US or China or any other trading block.

      1. strum Silver badge

        >Just as we have no say on the standards on the stuff we export to the US or China or any other trading block.

        Difference is, we have never had any say in those standards. We are surrendering our say in the standards of the world's biggest market.

    3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      So, Everyone is advocating we comply with EU regulations, but without the ability to effect what said regulations are?

      Advocating - no. Stating the bleeding obvious that this is a "take it or leave it" case - yes. It cannot be negotiated unless one has an economy of the same size (or bigger) than the Eu, a couple of carrier groups and a fleet of nuclear missile submarines. Size matters I am afraid. If you do not have the size your only option is "take it or leave (it)"

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        "Size matters I am afraid. If you do not have the size your only option is "take it or leave (it)""

        Correct.

        You'd almost think the Brexiteers believe Britain still has a whole Empire to back it up.

        IRL Thatcher didn't like the EU but she understood the real facts of life.

        It's better to be inside a big warm tent p**sing out than outside the tent dodging random streams of p**s.

    4. codejunky Silver badge

      @ Halcin

      "So, Everyone is advocating we comply with EU regulations"

      No, mostly remainers. The ones who want to be in the EU at all costs including your first to last born. The ones who are happy to ignore the only democratic vote for our EU membership and then want to retrospectively add additional thresholds which the vote to be in certainly dont meet. The same people who think we are all plebs and shouldnt have the vote, but yet I suspect complain about the gov.

      Not exactly reliable people.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: @ Halcin

        Codejunky, please explain:

        - why we would want change our regulations to make all those products and services already targeted at our area of the world incompatible with our country

        - how we can make our own magically better regulations and then force 27 other countries to use them

        - what advantage is there is for us in pulling out of the decision making processes which set regulations for 28 countries + EEA and preferring a decision making process which sets regulations for only our own country, dramatically reducing our sphere of influence

        - what products and services do you envision could be better and with our own esoteric incompatible standards set just to shown who's taken control

        Thanks.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @ Halcin

          @ Dan 55

          "why we would want change our regulations to make all those products and services already targeted at our area of the world incompatible with our country"

          Nonsense. Please rewrite this so it does make sense.

          "how we can make our own magically better regulations and then force 27 other countries to use them"

          Nonsense. This assumes countries cannot trade with each other at all in the entire world.

          "what advantage is there is for us in pulling out of the decision making processes which set regulations for 28 countries"

          28 of 195.

          "what products and services do you envision could be better and with our own esoteric incompatible standards set just to shown who's taken control"

          Nonsense. Try again with sense.

          Wow that was quick and easy

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Codejunky

            “Wow that was quick and easy”

            The epitome of cluelessness. Stick to the coding job, trade rules and negotiations are clearly WAY out of your reach. The country would be on its knees in days with you in charge lol

          2. strum Silver badge

            Re: @ Halcin

            >Wow that was quick and easy

            Yeah, it's really easy when you don't bother thinking.

        2. Lars Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: @ Halcin

          @Dan 55

          Codejunky is talking about Global Britain. BoJo's phone has been ringing now for 20 months and he has a hell of a problem together with Rees-Mogg to decide which countries to accept and which to reject. As one bloke revealed on the telly the whole world is waiting for Britain to lead the new global world of free trade.

          Just wait and see, Britain will rule the regulations once again, no more rule sharing or taking, just rule making.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: @ Halcin

            As one bloke revealed on the telly the whole world is waiting for Britain to lead the new global world of free trade sell us stuff they already produce. Buying from us - not necessarily, they may make what we'd want to sell already.

      2. Professor Clifton Shallot

        Re: @ Halcin

        > "No, mostly remainers. The ones who want to be in the EU at all costs"

        This is a matter of fact rather than debate, one's position on leaving the EU has no bearing - if we want to trade with the EU then we have to comply with their rules for trade. The 'at all costs' position is the refusal to comply even if it means losing the ability to trade.

        As a punter GDPR looks like a good example of legislation that works in my favour in theory but is not something I'm ever likely to think about much. As a Data Processor it's a pain in the bum. On balance I'd probably rather it went away because I'm lazy (and complacent about how my data is used and abused, I guess).

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @ Halcin

          @ Professor Clifton Shallot

          "if we want to trade with the EU then we have to comply with their rules for trade" != "The 'at all costs' position is the refusal to comply even if it means losing the ability to trade"

          How is this complicated? It really isnt. If a business wants to trade with a client in another country the product/service must meet the regs of the country. FFS this is easy. Doesnt matter if the country is US, India, China, Small island in the middle of nowhere or even the freakin EU. To trade the business must be compliant. The Business not the whole freakin country.

          Why should we care if the EU want to slap their businesses with all kinds of red tape? We shouldnt. Any business wanting to do business with them will but the rest of us dont need to care.

          All costs means taking any rule from the EU and applying it to the UK because the political project we didnt elect and have voted out says so.

          "As a punter GDPR looks like a good example of legislation that works in my favour in theory but is not something I'm ever likely to think about much. As a Data Processor it's a pain in the bum."

          Congrats you have just summed up the EU. Who cares unless it affects them. For those who do care and start looking at the EU it really does come up short. Then you spend your time explaining the same things to people who dont care but want us to remain.

          1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: @ Halcin

            If a business wants to trade with a client in another country the product/service must meet the regs of the country. FFS this is easy. Doesnt matter if the country is US, India, China, Small island in the middle of nowhere or even the freakin EU. To trade the business must be compliant. The Business not the whole freakin country.

            You are right, but if my business has to trade with the EU and incurs regulatory and tariff costs in doing that I am at a commercial disadvantage to competing businesses who have less costs in only having to meet local regulations.

            I can't afford to lose the EU half of my business and I can't compete with the local competition for my other half. Fuck it. I'll close the business down, retire early. Let brexiteers and the dole office worry about all the people that puts out work.

            1. H in The Hague Silver badge

              Re: @ Halcin

              "Fuck it. I'll close the business down, retire early."

              Sorry to hear that - hope it won't come to it. But also something facing a friend - with a business he built up from absolutely nothing. And just heard from my best friend in London that her daughter's job's is now looking shaky as the company's considering simply leaving the UK market. Really pissed off about all that.

            2. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: @ Halcin

              @ Jason Bloomberg

              "You are right, but if my business has to trade with the EU and incurs regulatory and tariff costs in doing that I am at a commercial disadvantage to competing businesses who have less costs in only having to meet local regulations."

              That is true and I am sorry to hear that. Apparently Germany roasts and sells coffee. The EU tariff on roasted coffee being high but on green coffee beans low, so Germany buys them cheap from Africa, roasts them and sells at a nice profit. So yes I can see how tariffs could be used against a country which is a problem for poor countries who have starving populations. The good news for Africa is China. Since the EU is protectionist and enforcing disadvantage it has been China's advantage to move in and help with developing for mutual gain. It is the same protectionism with tariffs that will bring the cost of food down for the whole country (rich and poor alike) when we leave.

              "Let brexiteers and the dole office worry about all the people that puts out work."

              Ok. I have to ask if you care at all of the people the EU has killed (locking out poor countries from trade) or the many people the EU put out of work (Eurozone)? I can understand your concern of problems affecting you. I wish you well in whatever you decide.

              1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

                Re: @ Halcin

                That is true and I am sorry to hear that.

                So you're OK that a huge number of UK businesses, particularly the smaller ones (who employ more people than the big businesses that everybody focusses on) will go to the wall due to a huge increase in red-tape and costs?

                Apparently Germany roasts and sells coffee.

                Does this have anything to do with the example of the UK businesses that will be considerably less competitive all of a sudden?

                In any case, Germany does not roast and sell coffee. Don't go all Daily Mail (racist) on the situation attempting to find scapegoats and bogeymen for your points of view. What may be the case is that companies operating in Germany, who may be German in ownership, but might not, buy in green coffee beans, roast them and then sell them on in the EU, taking advantage of the difference in tariff rates. There is nothing stopping UK, Spanish, Irish, French or whatever organisations doing exactly the same. This kind of tariff, while not immediately helpful for the supplier of green beans encourages business and industry within the EU, is this a bad thing or not? Flattening such tarriff differences between raw and manufacturerd goods will only bring a small benefit to those purchasing the end product, because they may be able to purchase the product cheaper - however they may be less sure of the production quality and checks required and what happens to those that are no longer employed by the local coffee roasting companies when they close down?

                You are quite right about China, they are heavily investing for mutual gain however if a Chinese company owns your infrastructure where does that leave locals? With better infrastructure of course, but all owned by foreign organisations, largely for the profit of the foreign organisation. In the long term this is not a good plan and look how well it worked out for the British Empire (well, really the various trading companies)?

                It is the same protectionism with tariffs that will bring the cost of food down for the whole country (rich and poor alike) when we leave.

                I'd like to understand the reasoning behind this. Interest rates will go up, costs of pretty much everything will go up due to a huge increase in red-tape and bureaucracy and a collapsing exchange rate making imports much more expensive just on this factor alone. Removing all tariffs, which is a very bad idea because removing them will advantage importers of products that can be produced in cheaper locales, is unlikely to change the balance much in any favour. Tariffs are protectionist over local economies, otherwise cheap regions, or regions that don't care much for worker rights, child "slavery" or whatever it takes to be cheap, will be able to out compete locals and the job of a government is to maintain local industry - to a point.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @ Halcin

                  @ Nick Ryan

                  "So you're OK that a huge number of UK businesses, particularly the smaller ones (who employ more people than the big businesses that everybody focusses on) will go to the wall due to a huge increase in red-tape and costs?"

                  I have no problem with that. I would have issue if we were expected to end up with high unemployment, but that is not the case. As leaving would reduce some costs and increase others it would adjust the economy. But to argue against that is to argue against trading with those who are cheaper/better than you. Personally I want the cheaper/better product or service, not protect uncompetitive business.

                  "Does this have anything to do with the example of the UK businesses that will be considerably less competitive all of a sudden?"

                  I suggest you read the comment if you dont understand.

                  "What may be the case is that companies operating in Germany"

                  You are right it is the companies. Benefiting from the trade law Germany has which is the EU trade law and we are discussing trade law.

                  "There is nothing stopping UK, Spanish, Irish, French or whatever organisations doing exactly the same"

                  You miss the point. It isnt that members of the cartel can exploit this, it is that outside the cartel we will be rejoining the world. Africa is locked out by the EU but the world is not.

                  "Flattening such tarriff differences between raw and manufacturerd goods will only bring a small benefit to those purchasing the end product, because they may be able to purchase the product cheaper - however they may be less sure of the production quality and checks required and what happens to those that are no longer employed by the local coffee roasting companies when they close down?"

                  This is the difference in view. It wont provide the customer a much cheaper product necessarily but it will take people out of absolute poverty in poorer countries and save lives while improving cooperation and mutual advantage. While you are considering those in rich countries who have a welfare system until they find work in one of the many other job options.

                  "You are quite right about China, they are heavily investing for mutual gain however if a Chinese company owns your infrastructure where does that leave locals?"

                  With the infrastructure. Unless you suggest China buys the infrastructure and then moves it away? Except they are laying rail to connect through a number of countries which will benefit them all. And the industries set up in those local areas will be in the local areas for the locals. More jobs and employment and mutual benefit. Is that a bad thing?

                  "Interest rates will go up"

                  Why is this seen as bad? Currently we have ultra low rates in comparison to the very law rates we had before which was low compared to the double digits it has been in the past. Increasing the interest rates (a good thing) is because inflation is going up (a good thing) which returns us to a better position to deal with the next market correction. The very actions the BoE and treasury have been trying to do since 2008. The very actions continued to this day.

                  "costs of pretty much everything will go up due to a huge increase in red-tape and bureaucracy"

                  Ah big mistake. The EU tariffs are a cost. Drop them and the cheaper options become available and red tape on imports is controlled by us (outside the EU). This is where outward looking remainers should group with the outward looking leavers and push the government in that direction. Instead of remainers claiming we are all (can only assume them included) are racists who want to pull up the drawbridge. Nearly all the protectionist and nationalistic statements I hear seem to come from remainers claiming to speak for leave.

                  "Removing all tariffs, which is a very bad idea because removing them will advantage importers of products that can be produced in cheaper locales"

                  Do you argue for high tariffs? I am not sure of your position on this. I am happy with low tariffs which mean we get what we want (the people) instead of trapping us with lesser producers.

              2. mje11

                Re: @ Halcin

                The roasted coffee tariffs is a big myth that refuses to die, and one that Brexiters keep repeating. In reality virtually all coffee growing countries have trade deals with the EU.

                You can find the rates at: http://trade.ec.europa.eu/tradehelp/

                The code for roasted non-decaffeinated coffee is 09 01 210000

                So for example exporting from Ghana there is a tariff of 0% for coffee from Ghana, 2.6% for coffee from a GSP list country, and 7.5% for coffee from a country without any deal.

                So there are not high barriers to most African countries growing and roasting coffee themselves for export to the EU, the tariffs are if they are exporting coffee grown elsewhere.

                Also possibly of relevance, African countries are working towards launching the Continental Free Trade Area (CFTA) for goods and services before the end of the year, together with eventual Freedom of Movement etc. They realise the value of being in a union with their immediate neighbours.

                1. H in The Hague Silver badge

                  Re: @ Halcin

                  Not an expert, but gather that you wouldn't want to ship roasted coffee across longer distances as its shelf life is much shorter than that of the unroasted beans. I.e. it makes sense to roast the beans closer to the consumers.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: @ Halcin

                    @ H in The Hague

                    "Not an expert"

                    I admit that used to be the issue. Positive advancements in technology have provided the world with the capability to ship products world wide in ways never before imagined. World wide advancements have been stunningly amazing.

                    1. H in The Hague Silver badge

                      Re: @ Halcin

                      Thanks, I'll mention that to a friend who has just invested twenty grand in a coffee roaster for her coffee supply business, to provide her customers with the freshest possible product. Obviously, had she had your expert knowledge she could have avoided that investment.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: @ Halcin

                        @ H in The Hague

                        "Thanks, I'll mention that to a friend who has just invested twenty grand in a coffee roaster for her coffee supply business"

                        Cool, whatever works for her and her business. Or are you trying to make some kind of point?

                2. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @ Halcin

                  @ mje11

                  "The roasted coffee tariffs is a big myth that refuses to die"

                  I am sorry if this is incorrect. I must admit the document I am looking at is from 2011 (section9 page5)- http://www.ico.org/documents/icc-107-7e-tariffs-trade.pdf

                  This points out the 7.5% has an effective rate much higher. I linked to this source from- https://capx.co/how-the-eu-starves-africa-into-submission/

              3. Adair

                Codejunky...

                your arguments would make sense if we were starting from scratch as a newly formed independent state floating far out in the Atlantic. But we're not.

                The argument you should be making is why leaving the large trade bloc we are already in (and have influence over) is going to be so much better (not just ideologically but practically) than staying with what we've already got.

                If you can make that argument stick you will do a lot of doubting people a big favour. So far no one has even come close, in fact people seem to actively avoid trying to make a cogent case, resorting to vacuous and laughable 'trust me' arguments instead.

                Fire away.

                PS - Please remember that many/most of the problems besetting the UK currently are of our own making (little or nothing to do with membership of the EU) and within our means (legally and economically) to deal with, if our politicians and ourselves have the guts to tackle them.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: Codejunky...

                  @ Adair

                  "your arguments would make sense if we were starting from scratch as a newly formed independent state floating far out in the Atlantic."

                  Why?

                  "The argument you should be making is why leaving the large trade bloc we are already in"

                  Been there and done that. From the stand point of the trade off of being in that particular trade block. The argument to remain in the EU is similar to the argument of being another state in the US (except the US is more successful with a longer history). Many a time I have offered to discuss the costs/benefits of the following areas of leave- democracy, trade, economy, sovereignty, immigration etc. All good arguments for leave which seem to end the discussion quickly.

                  "If you can make that argument stick you will do a lot of doubting people a big favour"

                  I do. I dont post on here to convert the hardline remain shouting about the end of the world. They are everywhere and repeating the same discredited bull. I counter the lies and try to add facts to a religious situation. That way the thinking can come to their own conclusion. I respect people thinking remain is a better idea with thought out reason, but not the propagandists and anti-democracy spouted recently sounds like some extremist rally. It is shocking when talking to some voters how much information they have missed out on and how much crud they believe because nobody explained where it was wrong.

                  "in fact people seem to actively avoid trying to make a cogent case, resorting to vacuous and laughable 'trust me' arguments instead"

                  Read some of the comments I put up with. I have idiots trying to convince me to be racist so they can argue with me. Or writing some of the dumbest caricatures because that is their level of discussion. Now I am called brexshitter or brexidiot and the time before that was eurosceptic (fell out of favour when we were proved right over the Euro debate years back).

                  "Please remember that many/most of the problems besetting the UK currently are of our own making (little or nothing to do with membership of the EU) and within our means (legally and economically) to deal with, if our politicians and ourselves have the guts to tackle them."

                  I wont argue with that. What nobody has yet managed to explain is how having bad government is solved by putting over it a less accountable bad government? The EU is in multiple actual crises after stunning and dangerous failures. At least we can vote for a different party in this country. Think of the worst politician you can imagine. In this country it is the voters fault if they get in. In the EU we have no control over that.

                  1. Adair

                    Re: Codejunky...

                    Lets just keep it simple. Out in the open ocean there is a choice: am I going to be an orca amongst my pod working, competeing - living together, sharing the risks and the benfits; or, am I going to be an orca alone?

                    England/Britain is not exceptional, it is just another middling sized country, relatively very wealthy, but with significant internal problems of social justice. Taking the world as it is today, what are the odds of being better together with others, than going it alone. And what will 'going it alone' actually mean in reality (we are no longer an imperial power who can call the shots - others have that power today)?

                    Most nations of the world today, that are economically active and successful, belong to trading blocs of various kind. Absolute 'sovereignty' does not exist. Whether we stay or go we are going to have to work in the world the way it actually is (increasingly how others, rather than us, choose it to be), regardless of how we might wish it to be.

                    The EU is not a panacea, but like the orca pod it has a great deal to offer for those who are willing to make it work.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Codejunky...

                      @ Adair

                      "Lets just keep it simple"

                      I think becoming an orca will be harder than you think. Easier to be an ork, green makeup, pointy things, etc.

                      "England/Britain is not exceptional, it is just another middling sized country"

                      Surely thats a point of realisation for you. I dont claim the UK/Britain/England to be exceptional, I point out there are many countries in the world not in the EU and plodding along fine without the EU. it isnt me you need to convince we are just another middling sized country it is the doom mongers who seem to think we are a retarded wasteland and doom and fire.

                      "relatively very wealthy, but with significant internal problems of social justice"

                      Noooo not the snowflakes. Please can we pretend you didnt say social justice for all its worthlessness as a thing. With no meaning and abused by every nutter with a grudge. But yes we are wealthy as a country and we have internal problems as does every country. As you say we are just another country.

                      "Taking the world as it is today, what are the odds of being better together with others, than going it alone"

                      Well said! I agree. I dont want us to hide behind nationalist borders. Nor do I want us to hide behind supranationalist borders. Instead as demonstrated in the world countries can work together without the all loving boot that is the EU. High tariffs and cartel mentality is cutting us off from the world lets break free from that.

                      "we are no longer an imperial power who can call the shots - others have that power today"

                      What is that calling the shots thing? You mean militaristic or overbearing might to enforce our will? Like the EU on its weaker countries? The EU reducing in its share of the global wealth and in multiple crises due to bad governance while the rest of the world ticks on?

                      "Most nations of the world today, that are economically active and successful, belong to trading blocs of various kind"

                      Ok so? Are you saying we cant be part of a trade block if we leave the EU if we want to? Do they have a political project over them screwing up their member countries?

                      "Absolute 'sovereignty' does not exist"

                      Is this some abusing of words? Or some kind of mental gymnastics? If we cannot leave the EU then we have almost no sovereignty because we dont have the freedom to choose to leave.

                      "Whether we stay or go we are going to have to work in the world the way it actually is"

                      Yup well said. Outside the cartel and acting like the many other countries not in the EU.

                      "The EU is not a panacea"

                      Damn freaking right with a cherry on top. That we can agree on.

                      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                        Re: Codejunky...

                        Yup well said. Outside the cartel and acting like the many other countries not in the EU.

                        Indeed. Every other country up to the Russian border is in the single market, customs union or both. But accorsing to Brexiteers it apparently makes sense to leave that and isolate ourselves from our neighbours.

                        By the way, it's not necessary to leave the single market and customs union to leave the EU. The UK could move to the EFTA, which it was in up until 1972.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: Codejunky...

                          @ Dan 55

                          "Indeed. Every other country up to the Russian border is in the single market, customs union or both. But accorsing to Brexiteers it apparently makes sense to leave that and isolate ourselves from our neighbours."

                          Have you now moved on from 28 countries out of 195? Where do you mark the arbitrary lines? Just left of Ireland (since the US isnt in). The interesting part of your comment is the isolation bit. You are talking about isolation, but I am not. Oddly the only people who seem to talk about isolating from the EU is racists (I see this occasionally but not often) and remainers (so often I almost have this rehearsed). How about not isolating ourselves?

                          "it's not necessary to leave the single market and customs union to leave the EU"

                          4 pillars of the single market= remaining in the EU. The diktat from the EU for us to have access. You are arguing with the EU when you say that.

                          1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                            Re: Codejunky...

                            Have you now moved on from 28 countries out of 195? Where do you mark the arbitrary lines?

                            Same continent, quite easy and understandable.

                            The interesting part of your comment is the isolation bit. You are talking about isolation, but I am not.

                            No, I suppose the cakists can have everything. People who do understand what leaving our trading bloc means will comprehend that that also entails having a waker relationship with our neighbours on the same continent up to Russia, unless we move to the EFTA or EEA

                            Oddly the only people who seem to talk about isolating from the EU is racists...

                            Sorry, this is the point where it gets too absurd. I like rational debate.

                            1. codejunky Silver badge

                              Re: Codejunky...

                              @ Dan 55

                              "Same continent, quite easy and understandable."

                              Also a bit limiting. Look at the condition of global trade. Look at the rapid advancement of China! While looking only at your doorstep was how things had to be done, the world has moved on. We can communicate all over the world in effectively real time! We can ship large quantities of goods around the world. We can move fresh produce around the world in large quantities and relative ease. My Russian friend is taught English, from England and while her regular teacher is in the north west any cover teaching is done from anywhere in England!

                              "People who do understand what leaving our trading bloc means will comprehend that that also entails having a waker relationship with our neighbours on the same continent up to Russia"

                              See above. The idea that businesses in the EU will abandon the UK is in itself absurd, there will still be trade. I wont even be shocked if a trade deal is achieved as we both benefit from mutual trade. But why are we discussing Europe and excluding Russia? Same continent. You exclude it for not being in the EU. You are the one to claim we are isolating ourselves because we are leaving a political union on the same continent. Yet I point out the entire world and parts of the same continent you ignore for not being in the EU.

                              "Sorry, this is the point where it gets too absurd. I like rational debate."

                              I am glad you see it is absurd to talk about isolating ourselves. That is why I asked why you would be suggesting isolating ourselves. I was hoping it wasnt something you seriously consider.

                      2. Adair

                        Re: Codejunky...

                        'Sovereignty' is one of those bullshit words beloved by politicians and nationalists. In the end we have to live with and accommodate our neighbours, or go to war. Europe (incl. Britain) has a long blood soaked history. human beings have not changed, even after slaughtering millions in two European led world wars. The 'EU' (we'll use that label) was and is primarily an attempt to avoid repeating history any time soon. To date it has succeeded. Get rid of it and we'd better come up with a pretty good alternative, tout sui!

                        Personally, I think we're probably better in than out, but I wouldn't die in a ditch over it. What has really yanked my chain is the current manner of leaving - 'Brexit'! A shambolic clown show with added mendacity. No plan, no clue, arrogant self-interest from the most ardent advocates, and no mandate worth paying attention to. The fabled 'will of the people' in the case of Brexit' is exactly that, a fable. There is no 'will of the people' for Brexit, the country is effectively split down the middle. The whole Brexit shambles is an edifice built on sand, lies, and a hopeless vainglory. Then of course there are the vulture-capitalists lurking the shadows who aim to make a killing unless some wisdom and integrity at last manage to take hold.

                        Whether we stay or go 'Brexit' is shit, and we should be ashamed of ourselves for allowing ourselves to be railroaded by stupidity into such a shambolic exercise.

                        1. H in The Hague Silver badge

                          Re: Codejunky...

                          "There is no 'will of the people' for Brexit"

                          In my view there is certainly no "one will" of the people - the ideas within this camp range from the free market utopia dreamt of by Farage, Rees Mogg, etc. to the socialist utopia dreamt of by Dennis Skinner, etc. So given that range there simply cannot be a Brexit to satisfy all Brexiteers. Whatever the end result is, many of them are going to get the opposite of what they wanted. What the .... did they think they voted for?

                        2. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: Codejunky...

                          @ Adair

                          "'Sovereignty' is one of those bullshit words beloved by politicians and nationalists."

                          Unfortunately the word is abused so badly people dont know if they are coming or going in either camp. It is a real concept (like freedom) but people seem so lazy as to demand absolutes instead of realising the scale which includes accommodating our neighbours, which can only be done with sovereignty.

                          "The 'EU' (we'll use that label) was and is primarily an attempt to avoid repeating history any time soon. To date it has succeeded"

                          This is something I severely doubt. Common interests worked but we are all different. The EU tries to pull into being the same (ever closer union) even though they dont want it. As a result the EU has caused multiple crises, pushed people into voting for anti-EU parties and is losing support. Even the French president said France would probably vote out of the EU. If the population wants out and are forced closer in that increases tensions. Provoking Russia as they did increased global tensions. And they even talk of an EU army, which had been commented as potentially useful with this migration crisis Germany caused. An alternative would be falling back to what worked.

                          "A shambolic clown show with added mendacity. No plan, no clue, arrogant self-interest from the most ardent advocates"

                          I am not sure it really is that bad. Those who want out want out, thats simple. The problem is the drag of those who want in, or some kind of in (aka in) or some fantasy deal of in but out but in that the EU wont allow. In short we could have voted for the brexit party who had a plan and instead we voted for the saboteur Cameron. Both campaigns sucked but the gov was remain and it was a rigged vote that still didnt go their way. That causes serious distrust for leave who know we got our result despite rigging and yet still these self interested scum are determined to walk over the people further. This gov isnt good but the sewage in politics and propaganda pushing to remain at all cost are the problem.

                          "The whole Brexit shambles is an edifice built on sand, lies, and a hopeless vainglory"

                          Unfortunately that was the state of both official campaigns. It was shameful to watch the our politicians making such fools of themselves but worse is the continued shame of watching it continue. We voted, we are doing it so lets do it. Instead we have children and fools demanding an end to democracy and desperate to get on their knees and open wide in the hope that the EU who have been vicious and unfriendly will be nice to us and take us back. What amuses me is nobody suggests the legitimate idea of leaving and then rejoining. Mostly because it would be a bad idea and we would have more EU inflicted upon us.

                          @ H in The Hague

                          "In my view there is certainly no "one will" of the people"

                          And you would be right if we look for unified will of the people with the same idea of outcome or perception. That isnt just for leave but for remain. During the referendum people wanted in for various reasons- EU is perfect/isnt perfect but we need to reform it, a socialist/capitalist/ anti-neoliberal/neoliberal paradise, restrains our government/doesnt interfere with our country, an expansion of our influence/the age of our influence is gone, to remove the threat of war/to be stronger in war, a trading/protectionist paradise.

                          The thing that joined them was their shared belief in remain. I dont hold that against them even though they have opposite beliefs, I accept they wanted to remain. Of course this applies to leave, except leaving would give us the freedom to vote for our own government who could then act as we want and take the country in that direction vs remain who wont have the influence to make the changes they dream of.

                    2. LucreLout Silver badge

                      Re: Codejunky...

                      England/Britain is not exceptional, it is just another middling sized country, relatively very wealthy, but with significant internal problems of social justice.

                      It's the 5th or 6th (depending on point in the cycle) economy in the world. That on its own is pretty exceptional. It had the greatest empire the world will ever know - that too is exceptional (and either good/bad depending on your own perspective). It has the global centre for finance, which again is completely exceptional.

                      Sorry, but we're more than our square mileage and population graph. We just are. Historically, as well as today, we're punching well above our weight globally. For better or worse we've had a greater impact on the world than almost any other nation in history.

                      Social justice problems are, in comparison to the rest of the world, largely illusory or ideological. We have free health care, free housing (if needed), free money (if needed), free childcare, free education, free transport/telly/prescriptions/money for the elderly, and we have one of the consistently highest rated justice systems in the world. The rest of the world has poverty, real poverty, rather than some arbitrary relative measure. Some of it has war. Some of it has famine. Some of it is French ;-)

                      We're not perfect, but we as close to it as almost any other nation on earth. Just by virtue of being British you have won lifes lottery. There are so many worse places to be born, and so few better.

                2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
                  Unhappy

                  Please remember that many/most of the problems..are of our own making

                  Damm right.

                  And a hell of a lot of them originating with the Home Office.

                  Immigration. Asylum processing. Snoopers Charter. Time after time they've managed to palm it off as "not our fault."

                  Ba***ds

                3. LucreLout Silver badge

                  Re: Codejunky...

                  The argument you should be making is why leaving the large trade bloc we are already in (and have influence over)

                  We don't have any influence over the EU.

                  We, as in the UK, sent the Prime Minister, of the worlds 5th biggest economy at the time, to negotiate piddling little changes and tinker around the edges of the current setup, and the EU sent him home empty handed like some naughty school boy. That, I'm afraid, is not influence. It just isn't.

                  Sure, the EU regret behaving that way towards us now, but that's only because we're leaving and they can't afford to replace the funding withhout triggering more referendums in other places.

                  It's taken the EU 7 years to negotiate a FTA with Canada. Canada, FFS. The world is moving faster and faster and the EU slower and slower, which is why its importance on the world stage, economically, reduces year on year on year.

                  We need to be free of the dead hand of the EU and forward outward looking - there's a whole world out there, and we need to be able to sign FTAs with it a lot faster than 7+ years with one of the easiest going nations on Earth.

                  Ultimately, that's why I voted leave. If they'd sent DC home with something, anything, it might have been enough to persuade me to stay. But they sent him home with nothing but a slap in the face. We're better than that.

          2. Nick Ryan Silver badge

            Re: @ Halcin

            All costs means taking any rule from the EU and applying it to the UK because the political project we didnt elect and have voted out says so.

            We did elect them. We had an extensive guiding hand in the formation and direction. Then we started electing (sending) racists in place of actual politicians - ie. those who have own personal, bigoted agendas and to hell with everyone else. Farage has no intention, care or anything about the state of the country, Farage cares about Farage and nothing more and was personally offended by the reduction that was inflicted on his personal (monetary) fortunes by a changing martket. Boris likewise, it's just that for some reason we equate "buffoon" with "likeable" and sent him to where he might be out of our way.

            Time and time again I see otherwise useful committees, or other organisations, inflicted with incompetents, narcisissts or just the plain unwanted because the sender doesn't want them either. Unfortunately sometimes these unwanted actually wind up steering direction and then things start to go wrong, very wrong indeed. We could have been in a strong position in Europe. Hell, we even had/have a cherished veto that we often chose not to use and then blamed "forrners" for rules that we claimed that we didn't want but chose to do nothing about even though we could have helped steer the rules.

            Instead we're on a steady self-destruct, with the only "winners" of Brexit being the old, very rich folk who are bankrolling it with everyone else, and I mean everyone else, suffering one way or another. How is this looking after the country? How is this acting responsibly? How is this leaving a worthwhile legacy for our children? It isn't, in any measure. It's not that the EU was perfect, but it is considerably better than a cronyism government run by the very rich for the benefit of the very rich. What colour lizard would you like to vote for today?

        2. LucreLout Silver badge

          Re: @ Halcin

          if we want to trade with the EU then we have to comply with their rules for trade.

          That isn't how free trade agreements work, sorry. It is what the EU would like us to do, but that is only as important as what we would like them to do. No more, and no less.

      3. Adam 52 Silver badge

        Re: @ Halcin

        There was no 2016 vote on leaving the European Single Market. In fact the *only* democratic vote on membership of the single market was one to join. So it's a little disingenuous to talk about retrospectively adding clauses to a referendum.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @ Halcin

          @ Adam 52

          "There was no 2016 vote on leaving the European Single Market."

          Actually the EU are dictating that leaving the EU (voted for) requires leaving the single market. The UK wanting frictionless trade and the EU wanting a wall in Ireland and for the UK to pay for it.

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge

            Re: @ Halcin

            Actually the EU are dictating that leaving the EU (voted for) requires leaving the single market.

            No, that was dictated in May's first speech at Lancaster House, the same Lancaster House where Thatcher extolled the virtues of the single market after the UK played a major part in designing the it, and repeated by May in every of her speeches about Brexit since.

            As for the previous post, you don't have an answer apart from spouting Boris-like piffle, now you seem to believe the UK will a say in setting standards for 169 countries. There is no idea to Brexit beyond stomping off home in a tantrum with your ball and proposing absurd half-baked ideas.

            Manufacturers will sell products with standards specified by and for the EU and stick a UK plug or steering wheel on it. The UK will either accept those standards or it won't but it will be in no position to get the EU to change its standards, in no position to get manufacturers to make special versions of products due to deliberately-introduced changes to standards that mean incompatibility with EU standards, and certainly in no position to go through everything at customs and confiscate items. It can't even do that with China now.

            The UK has no leverage and no bargaining power either with the EU or with other countries it might want to strike trade agreements with because it opted out of all that, first with the referendum result and secondly with the inept government.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: @ Halcin

              @ Dan 55

              "No, that was dictated in May's first speech at Lancaster House"

              To be in the single market we must accept the 4 pillars of the EU aka remain.

              "now you seem to believe the UK will a say in setting standards for 169 countries"

              I am so glad I expanded your world beyond 28 countries to the entire world. But you seem not to understand the point. Deduct the UK from the world and where do we get to set the standards? Yet the world still trades without dictating their standards onto supplying countries (only the products/services/businesses supplied).

              "The UK will either accept those standards or it won't but it will be in no position to get the EU to change its standards"

              Why? Do we accept the American standard 2 pin plug, or even the EU plug? Did the UK suddenly start driving on the other side of the road? It is at business level they need to supply to the standards of the target country in or out of the EU. That doesnt mean we enforce other countries standards on the UK and since there are so many different countries with different rules it would be impossible to encompass them all.

              "The UK has no leverage and no bargaining power either with the EU or with other countries"

              By bargaining power do you mean power over others? Effectively force? I can understand why you might think that way as Greece found out with the EU. But cooperative mutual gain is something which seems to work (see- world) and if the EU doesnt want that with us it is up to them. But then that would be the EU's choice.

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: @ Halcin

            "Actually the EU are dictating that leaving the EU (voted for) requires leaving the single market."

            Beggars can't be chooses. We've said (allegedly) what we (thought) we wanted. They're telling us what it will cost. To most of us here that was obvious all along although there seem to be exceptions such as yourself.

      4. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        Re: @ Halcin

        No, mostly remainers.

        Define remainer. For example, I voted remain in the referendum. Similarly, most of Eastern Europe prior to the referendum supported UK remaining in the Eu.

        Now, one year after the BrExit declaration most of Eastern Europe has realized that the harder the BrExit the bigger the financial injection they get. Similarly, those of us who CAN invest there have realized that the harder the BrExit the bigger our ROI.

        Nothing personal. Just business.

      5. Dr_N Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        codejunk> "Not exactly reliable people."

        Ah, the ENEMIES of the PEOPLE? The ones who are not fully paid-up member of Codejunky's Crazy Brexit Propaganda Club?

        Alternative FACTS! Keep 'em flowing' codejunky. They are so amusing.

    5. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "but without the ability to effect what said regulations are?"

      It's called taking back control.

    6. Roland6 Silver badge

      >So, Everyone is advocating we comply with EU regulations, but without the ability to effect what said regulations are?

      Not quite. What the Brexiteers are saying is that the EU will be so desperate to trade with the UK ("they need us more than we need them..."), they will rollover and simply make their regulations comply with whatever the UK says and thus rubber stamp the UK regulations...

  9. SVV Silver badge

    "“But we want to go further and seek a bespoke arrangement to reflect the UK’s exceptionally high standards of data protection,” she said."

    A classic of Mayite nonsense here - if you want to go further, you don't need a "bespoke arrangement". You just keep obeying all the EU regulations and add more of your own. No "arrangement" needed. However, given the tories' addiction to selling citizens' personal data to companies and intrusive mass snooping, boasting of "exceptionally high standards" sounds like her usual sort of meaningless bullshit.

    1. Inspector71

      The "exceptionally high standards" bit is just more of what seems lie at the heart of what drives Brexit for some people. Along with "deep and special" and "bespoke" and "Canada plus, plus, plus".

      It smacks of entitlement because of course what they really mean is we are just "better" than everyone else.

      See also "they need us more than we need.......etc"

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      the UK’s exceptionally high standards of data protection

      Where patient data is flogged left, right, and centre and fines are toothless. I wonder if German politicians laughed at that one.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Big companies LOVE regulation

    The more regulation the better, keeps barriers to entry high, so we have here big tech wanting to keep everyone else out.

  11. LucreLout Silver badge

    Why worry?

    Enforcement will still be lelft solely up to the ICO, which seems primarily to exist in order to protect companies from lawsuits for breaching the DPA. Certainly they rarely, if ever, use the teeth they already have - its difficult to believe they'll be any more assertive or forceful in the use of their new powers post GDPR / Whatever Brexit bring as a replacement.

  12. Mike 137

    "... to reflect the UK’s exceptionally high standards of data protection..."

    quite the reverse apparently - see:

    http://amberhawk.typepad.com/amberhawk/2017/03/uks-gdpr-law-will-not-be-judged-adequate-if-it-contains-provisions-that-made-the-dpa-inadequate.html

  13. evilhippo

    The entire point of Brexit is divergence, otherwise why bother?

    1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

      The entire point of Brexit is divergence, otherwise why bother?

      Blue passports?

      Oh wait, we could have had those at any time we felt like anyway: it was a choice of the passport office/government to have the same colour ones as most of the rest of the EU.

  14. Jamie Jones Silver badge
    Facepalm

    As a rule of thumb...

    Any divergence from EU laws is to the benefit of corporate interests, and the detriment of the people.

    All those who voted for "taking back control" have really voted for giving away control to those who simply want to make a quick buck. No wonder Murdoch, the Republicans and others are in favour of BRexit - more deals without those pesky Europeans concerned with peoples rights!

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      No wonder Murdoch, the Republicans and others are in favour of BRexit

      You forgot Vlad Putin as well.

      So let's see Trump (Billionaire), Murdoch (Billionaire) and Putin(Billionaire) are all

      a)Billionaires

      b)Not UK citizens, so unable to vote in the Brexit refereundum.

      Handy hint. When considering wheather to support a course of action consider who else support it.

      That list suggests you shouldn't have trusted Brexit with a barge pole.

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: No wonder Murdoch, the Republicans and others are in favour of BRexit

        @ John Smith 19

        "When considering wheather to support a course of action consider who else support it."

        So your backing Blair, Mandelson, Osborne, Cameron, etc? If you want to reduce this to XFactor then I take issue with your methodology.

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          Re: No wonder Murdoch, the Republicans and others are in favour of BRexit

          Your implicit assumption is I wanted a Referendum in the first place.

          I considered it a complete f**king waste of time and effort solely to keep the Conservative Party together and stop defections to UKIP.

          On that basis (destroying UKIP as a viable force in UK politics) Brexit has been a resounding success.

          The massive level of chaos in the UK economy is a price the Conservative Party considers well worth paying to ensure its own survival.

          The old term for a country outside of any major power block is "Non aligned." You might like to see what sort of other countries are "Non aligned."

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: No wonder Murdoch, the Republicans and others are in favour of BRexit

            @ John Smith 19

            "Your implicit assumption is I wanted a Referendum in the first place."

            And so we move from XFactor politics to you not wanting a democracy to have a choice. How does that stack against people not wanting to have joined the EU in the first place? Maybe we go the route of democracy and vote?

            "I considered it a complete f**king waste of time and effort solely to keep the Conservative Party together and stop defections to UKIP."

            A political party making huge gains (UKIP) due to a cause people feel strong enough to vote for causes politics in the country to move in the direction of the democratic population. Sounds good.

            "On that basis (destroying UKIP as a viable force in UK politics) Brexit has been a resounding success."

            The issue people want the freedom to vote on has been presented and the result is in. The issue is resolved as long as the result is respected.

            "The massive level of chaos in the UK economy is a price the Conservative Party considers well worth paying to ensure its own survival."

            Thats a difficult one. Mostly due to the lack of chaos in the economy but instead movements towards normality. I dont claim brexit caused this shift but I do believe it caused the timing of the improvement (currency fell and what the treasury and BoE have aimed for since 2008 is happening). However some remainers like to claim the fall in currency is due to brexit so I am not going to argue too hard if you want to credit brexit with such good news.

          2. LucreLout Silver badge

            Re: No wonder Murdoch, the Republicans and others are in favour of BRexit

            On that basis (destroying UKIP as a viable force in UK politics) Brexit has been a resounding success.

            And the main beneficiary of that has been labour. Had UKIP continued as a force, labour would have been wiped out at the last election. They were literally saved as a party by the country voting for Brexit.

  15. Lakanal

    The GDPR is a prime example of why the EU will continue to lag behind the US commercially. Instead of recognizing that the Cloud renders the old fortress Europe approach under the existing Directive quite impractical, the Commission's solution was to extend the EU's (paper) jurisdiction over the entire world. The UK should have good data security standards, but the laxest possible controls on the processing of non-confidential data. There is of course a need to enable data flows from fortress Europe to the UK, but subject to that the frivolous data protection industry should be kept as small as possible. What I tell you about me is not my data - it is yours.

  16. EnviableOne Bronze badge

    Brexit, GDPR and FUD

    I got the best advice about brexit from a Data Protection Specialist from one of our local law firms back in October 2015

    She set out 5 options for what the UKs relationship with the EU will look like after brexit and i still think not much has been decided either way.

    The basic options are Remain, EEA/EFTA, Bilatteral agreements, Customs Agreement, WTO rules.

    Remain means we are subject to all regs, but have a seat at the table to decide them

    EEA/EFTA, like Norway/Iceland means we have to apply most rules, dont have to pay in as much, get the free-trade and free-movement, but dont get a seat at the table

    Bilateral agreements, Like Switzerland - takes forever to set up, will probally end up with us haing to follow most regulations, gives us custom agreements for each sector, no seat at the table either.

    Customs Agreement like turkey - Allows access to free trade, sets external tariffs, covers most goods, but no services

    WTO Rules - no Regs, no free-trade, no support, tarrifs and border checks increased cost of goods http://stat.wto.org/TariffProfiles/E28_e.htm

    During the referendum campaign, the leave campaign talked up the norway/Iceland senario, but it looks increasingly likely that they are going for a swiss senario, but the agreements woont be in place in time, so we will end up with the WTO cliff edge.

    but untill we actualy have some information, its all FUD.

    Oh and BTW Data Protection equivalance is not a foregone conclusion, the EU working party for data protection (WP29) have three large grounds they dont think our current regieme is inline with the old directive (that the 1998 dpa is based on) starting with the Five Eyes agreement and the snoopers charter.

    1. Dave 15 Silver badge

      Re: Brexit, GDPR and FUD

      An even better idea would be to ditch all 5 of those and step outside WTO as well.

      Frankly this country has a trade deficit - a large and unsustainable one - getting out of the EU makes it a whole lot better, but still doesn't totally fix it

  17. Dave 15 Silver badge

    May ...

    As it appears May isn't even going to try and get rights for our one and only export to the EU - financial services I think we should just stick the fence up and tell them to keep everything... that rank French cheese (never as good as ours), those over hyped German cars and vans (remember the burning bus fiasco), the Italian 'pizza', Spanish 'wine' and all the rest of it... they can stuff the whole lot where the sun doesn't shine

    Even better if they take remainers, euro enthusiasts and the likes as well... so that will be May, most of the cabinet, most MPs and all of the civil service.

    The whole lot are arrogant, unpleasant, deceitful fifth columnists intent on destroying this country

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