back to article Women reboot gender discrimination lawsuit against Google

The class-action lawsuit accusing Google of deliberately paying women less than men has been revised and brought back to a US court. Attorneys representing women who worked at the American ad giant as engineers, software managers, program managers, sales staff, and early childhood education (at Google's pre-school/day care …

  1. PushF12

    The Pence Rule

    Don't hire unqualified women. Get sued. Pay out thousands.

    Do diversity hiring instead. Get sued anyways. Pay out millions.

    1. Geoffrey W Silver badge

      Re: The Pence Rule

      You guys always miss out the third option.

      Hire qualified women and pay them as per the job. Go to bed early and have an untroubled nights sleep. Wake up refreshed.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The Pence Rule

        Human resource costs are always very significant. Any company would replace set A of workers with set B of workers if set B performs as well as A and costs 20% less.

        This is not happening anywhere.

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: The Pence Rule

          "Any company would replace set A of workers with set B of workers if set B performs as well as A and costs 20% less."

          So, I think then the implication would be: hire MORE women so you can pay them LESS?

          And would they be SUING if more then 50% of the employees are women? (yeah, probably would, because the sueball throwers love to throw sueballs)

          Yeah there are some confusing indicators out there, because if the perception were correct, you'd see 'Silly Valley' sweatshops filled with single working moms where daycare was company-provided and that helped to justify the lower pay, etc. like "I owe my soul to the company store" snap, snap, snap...

          I wish I could find that Dilbert comic where some woman demanded she gets paid the same as the men, and then she gets a 10% pay cut [or something like that].

          1. Not also known as SC

            Re: The Pence Rule

            @BB. Is this the one?

            I wish I could find that Dilbert comic where some woman demanded she gets paid the same as the men, and then she gets a 10% pay cut [or something like that].

            http://dilbert.com/strip/2009-10-07

        2. Handle123456

          Re: The Pence Rule

          Apparently they either do not perform as well or do not receive less.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The Pence Rule

        >Hire qualified women and pay them as per the job. Go to bed early and have an untroubled nights sleep. Wake up refreshed.

        Where is the outrage that most truckers are male? Or what about a lack of male hotel maids. Oh wait, we're selective about what jobs we care about when it comes to equality. We should have a law that states male servers must be tipped the same as female servers. So if a female makes more than a male, she must pay the difference. Selective equality is a joke.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The Pence Rule

          It isn't about a comparison between roles or selective equality. It is about person A and person B being employed to do the same role but person A being paid less for no other reason than their gender. If a female trucker is paid less than a male trucker for the same specific job (aren't truckers in the States often self-employed owner-drivers?) then that is wrong, similarly if a male waiter earns less tan a female waitress for the same role and amount of work then that is also wrong. People should be paid based on the job they do and their competency, not because they have two XX chromosomes or an XY pair. In many cases men are best for a particular role and in other roles women excel, but if a man and woman are both good enough to be employed for a particular role and have the same skill sets, experience and tasks to perform I don't see how you can justify paying one less than the other.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Mushroom

          Re: The Pence Rule

          "Where is the outrage that most truckers are male? Or what about a lack of male hotel maids!"*

          Typical AC. Less balls than the women mentioned.

          Should a female trucker get paid less than a male trucker?

          Should a female "maid" get paid less than a male "maid"?

          Crawl into your pit, the 20th Century is coming to a place near you, and you're getting scared.

          * You may of missed the drives to get more men into traditional female roles such as nursing and primary school teaching, but that doesn't match your entrenched sexiest views does it?

          1. imanidiot Silver badge

            Re: The Pence Rule

            Primary school teaching ISN'T a traditionally female role. It's become such in the last decade and it's a problem imho.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: The Pence Rule

              Primary school teaching ISN'T a traditionally female role. It's become such in the last decade and it's a problem imho

              Are you saying there is a problem with the work these women do, and men would be better?

              1. imanidiot Silver badge

                Re: The Pence Rule

                Not at all, these women do the best they can. But there is simply a difference in how men and women think and act and the way men and women serve as role models for boys and girls. It would be best for children to be taught by an equal mix of men and women. One is not better than the other, but having a dominance of one over the other is bad. (Having mostly men would be equally bad)

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: The Pence Rule

                I don't know what he is saying, but I will say that it is a problem to create an environment where all of the authority figures are female, yes. Just as it was a problem with the the principle was pretty much the only male. If ever there were a place were it makes sense to balance the sexes, primary education is it. But...in the US, at least, so many want to be teachers that supply & demand means that teaching is a low-paying profession. And, per my previous observations regarding evolutionary psychology, it is dominated by women. In many grade schools, the only men on staff are the janitors. Unless there is a "security officer".

            2. HmmmYes Silver badge

              Re: The Pence Rule

              Not just primary school, secondary too.

              When I was at primary in the late 70s, ~50% of my teachers were male.

              Secondary the divide was slightly more men.

              My kids today - primary is 95% female. Secondary is about 70%.

              There's a similar female bias in the NHS - and, no, I dont mean Nurses, most DRs and GPs are female.

              Who do I sue?

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: The Pence Rule

                "There's a similar female bias in the NHS - and, no, I dont mean Nurses, most DRs and GPs are female."

                I heard a very interesting observation on this a few years ago from someone who'd recently retired from one of the main GP training medical departments. At that tine there was one of the many recent crises over number of GPs and he pointed out that one of the underlying causes was the increase in women becomnig GPs as due to them being much more likely than male GPs to take time off for maternity and then possibly only returning part time then on average the number of years of work from a female trainee was less than for a male trainee so the number of training places needed to be increased to take account of this ... but nothing had been done as everyone knew it would be career suicide to raise this as an issue.

              2. Teiwaz Silver badge

                Re: The Pence Rule

                When I was at primary in the late 70s, ~50% of my teachers were male.

                Hmm No, same era, but my Primary teachers were 90% female, Secondary, probably 70%

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The Pence Rule

            " the 20th Century is coming to a place near you, "

            Meanwhile, back in the 21st century, market forces are king...

            1. Teiwaz Silver badge

              Re: The Pence Rule

              " the 20th Century is coming to a place near you, "

              Poster of this statement is righter than they know.

              But not for the reasons they think. If we could all only take our eyes off the trivialities that will have no meaning in a decade or too.

          3. Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

            Re: The Pence Rule

            "Typical AC. Less balls than the women mentioned."

            Downvoted because your comment doesn't advance the debate, doesn't address the argument (no matter the lack or presence of validity) and seeks to resolve by attacking the poster in ad hominem fashion.

            Abandon the emotive response, address the argument as presented (even when its dumb as shit, from your viewpoint) and stop making assumptions about the opposition.

            A lesson many parties in these debates should learn.

        3. TheVogon Silver badge

          Re: The Pence Rule

          "Where is the outrage that most truckers are male?"

          Or that all lesbian porn stars are female?!

      3. HmmmYes Silver badge

        Re: The Pence Rule

        Ahh theres 3 genders at play here - men, women and lawyers.

        1. Handle123456

          Re: The Pence Rule

          There was 72 genders last time I looked. I admit it's quite some time so I bet it's way more now.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The Pence Rule

            "There was 72 genders last time I looked. "

            Baring a few extremely rare genetic disorders they are all clearly either male or female at birth. That's what they are regardless of what they might want to pretend to be. Just check what it says on the birth certificate if not sure...

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The Pence Rule

        "Hire qualified women and pay them as per the job"

        But the market value of women is lower. For instance many small business owners wouldn't dream of hiring a woman of child baring age.

        Therefore If you advertise a low paid job you will get better qualified women willing to work for it than men. So you end up paying women less through market forces.

        1. Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

          Re: The Pence Rule

          "But the market value of women is lower. For instance many small business owners wouldn't dream of hiring a woman of child baring age."

          Why the hell not? Is it because there is a presumption that a pregnant woman or new mother needs a lot of time off work? My wife worked up until a week before my daughter was born and then she and I split the parental leave period for a new child nearly equally. This was supported by both our employers and by new legislation about parental leave (yeah, bye bye maternity vs paternity leave!).

          Neither of our value have been lowered by being parents. The continued assumption that only women can look after children and men cannot is part of the issue. Do you consider it "babysitting" when you have to look after your own children, or is it childcare or parenting? Ask your employer the same question. The answer you get can be very illuminating.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The Pence Rule

            Bernard

            I may be wrong but I am assuming you do not run a small business? Forgive me if this is not the case.

            The problems caused by maternity leave in a small business are significant and expensive to resolve. Short term cover is required, which tends to be more expensive. You are not allowed to ask if/when the employee intends to return. They can agree to return then decide against doing so the day beforehand. If they are in a sales role then someone has to manage their clients in this period and then hand them back upon the, as yet, unscheduled return.

            Small businesses find this difficult and expensive to manage. That, sadly, is fact.

            1. Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

              Re: The Pence Rule

              "The problems caused by maternity leave in a small business are significant and expensive to resolve"

              I've run a small business in the past, but I never had to deal with maternity as it happens (it was a short lived thing, alas). You raise some good points, but for me those point to a failing in legislation rather than a reason to employ men over women. My point was that parental leave can be shared between parents and there shouldn't be an assumption, either by legislation, the parents or the employer, that the onus would automatically fall upon the mother to "give up their career to be a parent", or that all benefits and responsibilities are those of the mother, de facto.

      5. DavCrav Silver badge

        Re: The Pence Rule

        "You guys always miss out the third option.

        Hire qualified women and pay them as per the job. Go to bed early and have an untroubled nights sleep. Wake up refreshed."

        Only an option if they actually exist. Which they don't, statistically. We get very few women apply for jobs in our department, and they are even more rarely the best candidate, so we have <30% women working here. I cannot see how this is somehow our fault.

        1. GrumpyOldBloke

          Re: The Pence Rule

          Probably not your fault unless your office is at the end of a long dark road with no public transport and surrounded by prisons, psychiatric hospitals, wolves and cannibals. There are obviously other drivers influencing women's career choices and expecting it all to be magically fixed at the corporate level is leaving things a bit late. As an exercise in trolling it would be interesting to chart women leaving technical industries with the increasing proportion of women in school teaching roles. Are young women not reaching for some industries because of a lack of accessible role models (male or female) to inspire and teach them technical skills.

        2. Handle123456

          Re: The Pence Rule

          Your fault or not, you will pay.

        3. Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

          Re: The Pence Rule

          " I cannot see how this is somehow our fault."

          You've not being paying attention in Social Conditioning Class, have you? The feminsisters* have been yelling "Because patriarchy!" for some time now, and they're getting proper loud lately.

          *not a typo. A response to the nonsense that is "mansplaining".

      6. Handle123456

        Re: The Pence Rule

        You can't possibly pay enough. No matter how much you pay. These beings had been taught to request more and sue if they don't get it. No matter if they were hired just to fill the braindead diversity quotas.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Pence

      Well said, but you forgot one (sort off, because mine is from the employee's pov):

      "If you feel to get underpaid then don't agree with the job offering in the first place".

      They make it sound as if salary differences are all based on gender, but in most companies a difference in salary even occurs amongst men as well as amongst women. That's the part which is carefully left out of the equation here.

  2. Bernd Felsche

    The Goolag

    What are the odds on TCF using James Damore's memo in their defence?

  3. DainB Bronze badge

    The third option is to hire best person to do the job.

    Which means there won't be any women in IT at all.

    1. Mark 85 Silver badge

      What? No troll icon???

      "Incoming!!!!!!!!" <dives into bunker>

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Could you elaborate on that? Maybe expand how you know every woman that works in IT and how you know that every man is better and would be hired above them? I struggle with sweeping generalisations when they don't have any substance.

    3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      You sir a full of sh***.

      The best ISP sysadmin I have worked with is woman. The best QAs I have worked with are women. Some of the best embedded C++ developers I have worked with are women too. Some of the best DBAs, etc.

      This reminds me a legendary dialogue between a US Bank and a well known high end outsourcing/development shop in Bulgaria (*). The shop in question specializes in fraud detection and analysis systems for banking, elections, etc and is used by quite a few Tier 1 banks and some western governments including projects that are not usually spoken of (unless you want to be run over by an unmarked van).

      So the US Bank exec looks at the staff roll which is 30%+ women and at the benefits package which contains things like 1 year fully paid maternity leave and blows a gasket about broads and not paying for something which is the fault of the broad who should not have gone pear-shaped. At that point the owner of the shop looks at him and says: "You sir have no clue what is required to do this stuff. Software developers with university degrees and appropriate level of knowledge in statistics, AI and domain knowledge do not grow on trees. In any case, it is quite clear we will not get along, please leave the building".

      (*)I am omitting the actual names to protect the guilty - they are well known.

      1. DainB Bronze badge

        "The best ISP sysadmin I have worked with is woman."

        Well, you probably need to change your work if that's true.

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Unhappy

          "The best ISP sysadmin I have worked with is woman."

          Well, you probably need to change your work if that's true.

          I guess it's not even worth responding to, now...

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      >The third option is to hire best person to do the job.Which means there won't be any women in IT at all.

      Hey you can't say that! Think of all the snowflakes you just offended.

    5. Not also known as SC

      Which means there won't be any women in IT at all.

      Assuming you didn't forget the joke icon, I'm curious about your definition of IT. IT is a broad based term for all the actual jobs carried out in the IT industry - I can probably reel off 40 or 50 different job roles just from the one area I work in (of which computer programming would be just one). To clarify what I mean think about your sentence but imagine you used the phrase 'health care' instead of IT and you can see how absurd it appears. Some jobs within the IT industry may be more suited to men, and others more suited to women, the same as in the health care industry (most surgeon's are men I believe, and most mid-wives are women), but to say that women shouldn't work in IT is just stupid.

      1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

        1. Not also known as SC

          @DainB

          You missed my point - what do you mean by IT?

          Do you mean computer programming? Maybe men are better at that.

          What about project management which requires more 'soft skills' and perhaps women are better at those roles?

          Web design - far more creative (female friendly?) but still IT.

          I'm not disagreeing that in some IT roles men are better than women - I just think you have to clarify what you mean by IT before making such a sweeping statement. Remember women are over represented in health care. Would you argue that in that case the best person to hire in health care will always be a woman - especially considering that most top surgeons are men?

      2. Peter2 Silver badge

        I'm quite happy saying that (consistently) incompetent people shouldn't work in IT regardless of any consideration, be that being a friend or relation to somebody senior or other consideration such as gender or ethnicity. Computers don't care about the details of the person inputting the commands, and nor do I.

        But singling out a group of people beyond the dangerously incompetent, which working in operations I personally define as those who break production systems that jobs (and when i've been working at the NHS, potentially lives) rely on is unacceptable.

        When it comes to pay, if some people are twice as productive or working twice the hours as some others and get paid twice as much, fair enough. But if there are two equally qualified people employed in the same roles doing the same hours and producing the same level of work output then the pay should also be equal.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "The third option is to hire best person to do the job.

      Which means there won't be any women in IT at all."

      Not everywhere has bean-to-cup coffee machines deployed yet. There is still room for women in IT.

    7. LucreLout Silver badge
      Stop

      The third option is to hire best person to do the job.

      Which means there won't be any women in IT at all.

      Wow. That is just so wrong I hardly know where to start.

      I'm about the least progressive person you'd want to work for or with, because I don't buy any of the diversity BS. Diversity isn't a strength any more than it is a weakness. Just hire the best person for the job and don't sweat their gender, age, race, sexual preferences, whatever....

      But if you're seriously going to claim that none of the women I work with or have worked with are there on merit, then I'm going to call BS on that. Programming, or indeed any other aspect of IT, neither requires standing up to pee or the lifting of heavy objects, thus must be a gender neutral role.

      The female luminaries in our industry are many, as are the men. Yes, people outside of our industry complaining that there should be more women in IT do have a massive blindspot when it comes to work such as emptying the bins, oil rigs, mines, road construction etc, but that is their issue and their blindspot - let's not project that onto women within IT, because from my lengthy experience, they are all there on merit.

      I simply cant grasp the correlation between good code and genitalia.....

    8. Geoffrey W Silver badge

      RE: The third option is to hire best person to do the job. Which means there won't be any women in IT at all.

      Sez you. I bet Verity Stobb could code everyone here into a cocked hat. She's certainly funnier.

      1. Aqua Marina

        She’s also very likely a fat balding bearded man who lives in his mother’s basement.

        Just remember, this is the internet where men are men. Women are men. Teenage girls are men and children are probably FBI agents!

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Doing your bosses work?

    Isn't that how it always works? That's par the course, if I had a pay rise for every time I did my bosses work I'd be rich.

    I am all for equal pay but at least get the argument right, I'm sure there are equal examples of women getting people working under them to do the work.

    1. lglethal Silver badge
      Go

      Well maybe you should learn some negotiation skills. "Sorry, boss but I'm not paid at a level to do that." Is a line I've said before, pissed off quite a few bosses doing it, but they dont do it more then a couple of times before they learn that I'm not doing there job for them. And when appraisal time comes around, with HR in the room, and if your lucky your bosses boss as well, "Well considering how you wanted me to do managerial work for you, outside of the scope of my contract, I guess that means you think I'm ready for a promotion to a higher level?" or something similar puts your boss in the position of being unable to say that you were not a high performer...

      1. Not also known as SC

        And when appraisal time comes around, with HR in the room, and if your lucky your bosses boss as well,

        Or you can work in a company like the one I used to work in. Appraisal carried out by your peers and reported back to your reviewer (usually one grade higher only so not management). Reviewers (about 40 of them) then meet up and go through about 150 staff members deciding where on a matrix they sit. A manger and HR representative is there to chair and take notes, as well as ensure that any particular opinion they have about a staff member is enforced (good or bad). The specific staff members are not involved at this point and have no effective ability to appeal because they do not know what is said at the meeting - just their final grade.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Good points though it's rarely that simple. Don't get me wrong I don't do my bosses work all the time as I have enough of my own but there are occasions where I am asked to chip in and do it. I think my point is that it's not a good argument when trying to discuss equal pay because there are going to be a few occasions where you do work for your boss and how do you easily distinguish between their sole work or work to be passed down anyway, that's the argument they'll potentially have in the court room.

        1. lglethal Silver badge
          Happy

          By the way, re-reading my comment it came across far more agressive then planned. Sorry about that!

          I know its usually not that simple, but making sure you have clear boundaries helps wonders I find. Though it helps that i have no managerial ambitions and am moving down the "expert" path instead (where your expected to be a cranky old bastard!). If i wanted to go into management, my method would be a harder sell... :)

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        " "Sorry, boss but I'm not paid at a level to do that." Is a line I've said before"

        You do what you are told to, or you will be on a performance improvement plan and then out of here...

        "with HR in the room, and if your lucky your bosses boss as well, "Well considering how you wanted me to do managerial work for you, outside of the scope of my contract, I guess that means you think I'm ready for a promotion to a higher level?"

        Just lol. No wonder you are not a manager. Good luck with getting more than statutory minimum redundancy....

        "or something similar puts your boss in the position of being unable to say that you were not a high performer..."

        No, no it doesn't. You didn't do what you were asked by your boss, and you just pissed off everyone in the room.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I worked at Google. I don't believe any of these claims for a minute.

    1) There IS rampant sex-based discrimination at Google. They aggressively seek to hire & promote women. Men are assumed to be able to fend for themselves.

    2) Google's official policy is "a promotion is an apology". They expect you to do the work of the next level up before you put yourself in for a promotion--and certainly before they promote you. And yes, you put yourself in for the promotion, not your boss. Again, official policy. If you want a promotion, put yourself in for one.

    Again, there are deep evolutionary-sociological reasons that men are likely to earn more simply because they are male--especially in tech. The first, and most obvious, is that biologically, women are wired to want to be provided for by men, (particularly during their child-bearing & rearing years) and men to want to attract high-quality mates. Therefore, money is more important to men than to women.

    Next, is the IQ difference. On average, women have IQs that are a few points higher than men. But men's standard deviation is higher. Therefore, when you get into the high-q range, men substantially outnumber women. The tech business STRONGLY selects for high-q in its workforce.

    Next, is the lifestyle difference. There have been studies that show once you correct for things like years on the job, the ballyhooed 23% pay gap goes away and may even show a 1% bias for women. This disparity is made worse by policies that give bonuses for pager-carrying. Such a bonus is to gain money, which men value highly, by giving up time to truly focus on other things (like family), which women value highly.

    If achieving some weird sexual parity were Google's #1 concern, they should just drop salaries by %15. Men would flee in droves.

    1. Not also known as SC

      I can believe your observations although I think that your analysis may be generalising a little too much. My previous career was in eduction which is predominately female based and a lot of what you've stated would not stand up to scrutiny especially that money is more important to men than women - although there is a strong possibility that I happened to work with a set of particularly nasty women.

      What I really want to comment on is "They expect you to do the work of the next level up before you put yourself in for a promotion". I think you are correct about this because it isn't just in IT and most certainly not gender biased. When working as a science teacher in the 90's I wanted a '+1' promotion (worth about £500 a year) as the department's IT coordinator (how to use data loggers, modifying lesson plans to use data logging etc). I was told that I had to be seen doing the job on top of my normal duties, before I'd even be considered for the promotion. After two years of doing this I was informed that there was no promoted post available so no additional money, but as I was doing the job already could I just continue doing so.

      So while I cannot comment on the other discrimination allegations I think the one about doing the work of higher level staff is a non-starter. From my experience and yours it is obvious that a lot of companies will try to get 'something for nothing' from their staff and the companies will screw over anyone they can, male or female.

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Devil

      "On average, women have IQs that are a few points higher than men. But men's standard deviation is higher. Therefore, when you get into the high-q range, men substantially outnumber women."

      do you have a reputable source for this? it sounds interesting if it IS true, but then again it's very likely to be "just a perception" based on the distribution of 'smart kids' in a typical classroom... all of those girls who are great at school work [because they're not "being boys"] and one or two geeky boys that seem to have hyper-intelligence... a perception, but maybe not a reality.

      Anyway, if this has been proved for real, it could be an interesting point for a LOT of arguments.

      however, I would explain some of the pay gap this way: men tend to be risk taking and aggressive, women tend to be 'safe', because it's evolution, baby. risk takers probably ask for raises more often and are willing to be aggressive about it, even to the point of getting fired or rage-quitting. but women probably wouldn't do that. that's a perception, too, yeah, but I think I'm more right than not by suggesting this.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I don't have a source on the different shapes of the curve for men vs women--I've seen it in several reputable places however (not relying on comments sections...) It should not be a hard search.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Colleges are to blame

    Male to female ratio of computer programming students is unacceptable. I know this firsthand. There should be a mandatory male:female class size. If there aren't enough female students then guys are gonna have to deal with it. Why not? That's what SJW want in the workplace. So cut the snake off at the head.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wow, has 4chan gone down today?

    More sexist dickheads on here than usual.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Actually there are less than normal...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "Actually there are less than normal..."

        Actually there are *fewer* than normal.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      >Wow, has 4chan gone down today? More sexist dickheads on here than usual.

      What a sexist thing to say! Are you saying that women don't frequent 4chan? Also the term dickhead, used to describe guys, is very sexist. Try not being a hypocrite when complaining about sexism.

  8. Mycho Silver badge

    Google's performance criteria

    Disclaimer: speculation

    I've seen forums where people discuss that Google devalues teamwork in performance appraisals. No idea of the veracity of this.

    If we accept the psychologists who talk about gender distributions of aptitudes for a moment, teamwork is always one of the ones they list where the distribution favours women, which would mean that devaluing teamwork will devalue women more than men.

    Just throwing that out there.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Google's performance criteria

      Not sure where the idea that Google devalues teamwork comes from. What I have seen is that grungy work, like maintaining old projects and cleaning up technical debt, is not rewarded; or at least not as much as building a new project. In a sense, doing such grungy work can be said to be "being a team player" since it's good for the team but not personally rewarding. But I'm not sure it counts as "teamwork", or that women have particularly more aptitudes for it.

      1. Mycho Silver badge

        Re: Google's performance criteria

        The message I'm seeing is that performance of projects you run trumps everything else, which means helping others with the projects they run, while part of the job, is less important in performance reviews.

        If we accept some of the studies that show different distributions of aptitudes between the sexes then this is a metric that will favour men. And dumb.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What a bunch of sexists

    Why are we so fixated in tech jobs?

    What about women pilots? Crane operators? Appliance repair technicians? Heavy vehicle mechanics? Toolmakers? Electrical repairers? Truck mechanics? Bus mechanics? Cement mason?

    And I definitely want to see more woman roofers and lumberjacks.

    If you're going to say we need more women in the tech sector without worrying about women in other sectors then you are a sexist. You can't pick and choose. Either we want true equality or we don't.

    1. 's water music Silver badge

      Re: Whataboutery

      Why are we so fixated in tech jobs?

      my guess would be because this is a tech news site with a high it-worker audience

      What about...

      And I definitely want to see more woman roofers and lumberjacks.

      If you're going to say we need more women in the tech sector without worrying about women in other sectors then you are a sexist.

      Well you don't seem to be so fixated on tech jobs after all. I am pretty sure that nobody is stopping you from campaigning on your own employment equality issues

      You can't pick and choose. Either we want true equality or we don't.

      Yes, you can pick and choose and so can I and neither affects your false dichotomy

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Whataboutery

        >Well you don't seem to be so fixated on tech jobs after all.

        Correct. If you care about equality then you focus on all sectors of the workforce and not just tech.

        1. 's water music Silver badge

          Re: Whataboutery

          You understand the difference between what you and I are talking about here and now and what goes on in the rest of the world the rest of the time right?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What a bunch of sexists

      RTFA

      It isn't about the number of women in the tech sector or sexism across different types of jobs and the number of male dental hygienists v female clock makers or what ever jobs you want to drag into the discussion. It is about people being paid different amounts of money for the same work solely because some of them are women. Think about it - how would you feel if your company employed a woman to do the same job as you but decided to pay them more?

      Why is this so difficult to understand?

    3. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: What a bunch of sexists

      I'd like to see more women as plumbers... especially from behind!

      (coat, please)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What a bunch of sexists

        "I'd like to see more women as plumbers"

        So would I. Having worked at management level in the industry, I bet there would be fewer returns of mangled fittings. It's the 21st century, lead is no longer in use, great physical strength is no longer needed.

  10. msknight Silver badge
    Stop

    I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

    Most people on this forum are reasonable folk, and have a sense of reality and balance about them. However, a small number of the comments drove me to this. And partly because I know women who have received such rampant discrimination within IT that it is utterly shameful. And I do mean significant verbal abuse and belittlement.

    The industry has a history of writing women out of history - https://www.theguardian.com/careers/2017/aug/10/how-the-tech-industry-wrote-women-out-of-history

    Ours isn't the only one. Women flew spitfire aircraft from the factories to the airfields for deployment.

    We all know about Ada Lovelace being the first, "programmer," and that we owe the very term Debugging, to Rear Admiral Grace Hopper whose involvement in compilers and COBOL are legend. Margaret Hamilton who was director of the software engineering division at the MIT instrument lab and developed the software for the Apollo space program. Jean A Sammet who was also involved with the development of COBOL

    Here is an article on 10 women who helped make Apple great - https://www.computerworld.com/article/3041874/apple-mac/10-women-who-made-apple-great.html

    We attribute a gender to our cars as a whole, but we wouldn't assign a gender to the engine, or the brakes, or the door, etc. ... and just the same, the human brain doesn't have a sex either - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYpDU040yzc

    Some of the differences in behaviour and emotions are down to hormones. We are chemical engines, and just as we can take downers, uppers, pain relief, our bodies have their own drugs. The pleasure drugs of endorphins and adrenaline refresh every 20 minutes typically, after release into our systems. The testosterone and oestrogen balances are responsible for large changes in our bone structure... and continue to affect our emotions. Here is an account of Nicole and Jonas... born twins... and hormone blocking stopped Nicole going through the changes that her brother went through - https://youtu.be/rzbtSeVZeEE?t=13m55s

    We like to think about things in binary - actually, the human race is not binary. As many as 1 in 100 people differ from the commonly believed standard, but because much of this is underneath clothing, no one knows about it... and people are happily thinking that there's a massive line between men and women. Truth told... there isn't. http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

    We were actually doing quite well in equality in the middle of the last century, but then the marketers worked out that by enforcing gender stereotypes, that they could make money by segregation and selling more - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JDmb_f3E2c

    Long story short... women in IT is a thing, and always has been a thing. Get over it. - and if you're a bloke that's getting angry at all this evidence and historical account... here's my advice to you ... take up knitting... seriously, it's a man thing these days - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10552983/Mens-knitting-is-it-the-new-yoga.html

    1. msknight Silver badge

      Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

      Oh, and if you REALLY want to show off your wealth and high social status to as many people as possible.... then get yourself a pair of high heels .... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21151350

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

      >Long story short... women in IT is a thing, and always has been a thing. Get over it.

      And that statement proves you are a bigot. Nobody said that women in IT isn't a thing and nobody said that women in IT wasn't always a thing. Again, you're a bigot.

      My AS400 programming instructor was a women and a damn good instructor. She didn't need the help of some SJW because she was going to be a programmer and that was the end of it. I'm willing to bet most, if not all, the women you mentioned are also badasses who didn't need anyone else's help. You make it sound like women can't make it in IT without people like you stepping in and for that you are not only a sexist but should be ashamed of yourself.

      1. msknight Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

        And there you go....

        Taking up a position against bigotry automatically makes you an SJW these days and a valid target for attack. When all else fails and you can't shoot the message... shoot the messenger.

        "You make it sound like women can't make it in IT without people like you stepping in"

        The very point is that women HAVE been making it in IT.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

          >And there you go....Taking up a position against bigotry automatically makes you an SJW these days and a valid target for attack. When all else fails and you can't shoot the message... shoot the messenger.

          I stand against inequality. If you don't like it, tough.

          1. msknight Silver badge

            Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

            And so do I.... but you don't make women equal simply by making them men. It requires destruction of the rose coloured glasses numbskullery that got us to this point in the first place.

            You know... banish some misinformation with some actual science, history and facts.

            1. msknight Silver badge

              Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

              "Nobody here said women haven't."

              "DainB - Bronze badge - The third option is to hire best person to do the job. Which means there won't be any women in IT at all."

              Pull the other one. It has bells on. Also the general attitude that earned Have I Got News For You complaints when Jo Brand took Hislop to task for his attitude to sexual harassment. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/16/have-i-got-news-for-you-where-jo-brand-rebuked-all-male-panel-tops-complaints

              It's these throw away comments that people make in forums like this, that are a part of the problem. And when anyone speaks out about it... all hell gets let loose in an effort to devalue the point.

              "Actually, for women if you’re constantly being harassed, even in a small way, that builds up and that wears you down.” - which is what is happening here.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

                "DainB - Bronze badge - The third option is to hire best person to do the job. Which means there won't be any women in IT at all."

                If you think he's serious then report his post. I presumed he is trolling but if he isn't then he has no place here.

                1. msknight Silver badge

                  Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

                  And there it stands. Firstly, why should I report the post? If you're so up for inequality, then why didn't YOU report the post? And it's small snipes like that that earned Hislop a smack across the knuckles by Brand.

                2. Not also known as SC

                  Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

                  @ AC

                  I've reproduced DainB's reply to a comment of mine below. DainB says their original comment wasn't a joke and really thinks that women are never as good as men in IT.

                  "I did not miss a joke icon. I also did not say that women shouldn't work in IT.

                  All I said is that if you want the best person you can hire in IT it won't be a woman.

                  It's a simple fact which does not change depending on how much butthurt you have about it."

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

                    > I've reproduced DainB's reply to a comment of mine below.

                    I'm aware of his follow up post and I hope that was him kicking the hornet's nest again and nothing more. If he isn't joking, then he isn't representative of today's workforce. People who don't think women can work in IT are a joke just like the Ku Klux Klan and Black Lives Matter.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

              >And so do I.... but you don't make women equal simply by making them men.

              That's pretty sexist to assume a woman made into a man to be equal. Can't a woman just be herself and still be equal?

              >It requires destruction of the rose coloured glasses numbskullery that got us to this point in the first place.

              I get the feeling people like you are what got us here in the first place. This is exactly why feminist are getting sick of male feminist.

              >You know... banish some misinformation with some actual science, history and facts.

              People who are skilled programmers get jobs. If you don't believe it then tell that to my instructor, who happens to be a women, that worked with punched cards in the 70's. The only misinformation I'm seeing is people who suggest that women can't tech jobs without some kind of intervention.

              1. msknight Silver badge

                Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

                > That's pretty sexist to assume a woman made into a man to be equal. Can't a woman just be herself and still be equal?

                In the jobs market... I wish.

                > I get the feeling people like you are what got us here in the first place. This is exactly why feminist are getting sick of male feminist.

                There are many different feminists... some of whom don't even want equality, but want the pendulum swung the other way.

                > People who are skilled programmers get jobs.

                Not while there are people like DainB making these sorts of comments... and while others who know better don't act.

                1. LucreLout Silver badge

                  Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

                  > That's pretty sexist to assume a woman made into a man to be equal. Can't a woman just be herself and still be equal?

                  In the jobs market... I wish.

                  If you're a dev (C#/JS/Java/Python) and you're looking for work in London somewhere in the current century, let me know. I'm quite proud of the way we hire where I work now, and I'm fairly confident that any of the ladies on the team will agree they get a fair shake - to the best of my knowledge, salary and chromosomes are unrelated.

                  Don't let the bastards get you down. Whatever their gender.

                  1. msknight Silver badge

                    Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

                    > If you're a dev (C#/JS/Java/Python) and you're looking for work in London somewhere in the current century, let me know.

                    Thank you most kindly for the offer. At the moment I'm gainfully employed, but as usual restructures loom on the horizon :-)

              2. Not also known as SC

                Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

                @AC

                People who are skilled programmers get jobs.

                But we're not talking about programmers. We are talking about working in the IT industry which involves far more than just programming. Men may be better programmers, they might not - I've never seen any studies but I, like several other posters, cannot get over the fact that some people like you are supporting the principle that a woman, doing the same job as a man, should be paid less than that man just because she is a woman. How is that not sexist?

                1. msknight Silver badge

                  Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

                  Regarding the attitude of men being better than women... there are a number of studies and reports.

                  Here's a report on some of them as a starter for 10 - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/its-academic-university-women-are-beating-men-at-almost-everything-1693493.html

                  "It finds that not only do women outnumber men overall at university, they also outnumber them at every type of university. They are also more likely to get a good degree pass (a 2:1 or a first) and are less likely to drop out."

                  Now, you could easily say that this is an across the board thing and that studies specifically related to programming are not there... but equally, you can't look at the history of women in IT, and then say that men are better programmers than women... without also having a respectable study to back up your belief. ... never mind women in IT as a whole... and because of the very content of the main article itself... you can't simply point at employment figures as proof.

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

                  > cannot get over the fact that some people like you are supporting the principle that a woman, doing the same job as a man, should be paid less than that man just because she is a woman. How is that not sexist?

                  I never said that anyone should be paid less based on their gender.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

          >The very point is that women HAVE been making it in IT.

          And there you go....

          Nobody here said women haven't.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

          It's scientific fact that if you give a man and a woman a programming job to do, even if they have the same mental agility for the task, that the women will take between eight and twenty times longer to complete the task for the following reasons:

          1. Toilet breaks with colleagues. Smoking breaks too, because only women smoke nowadays.

          2. Getting sidetracked by whatever tat ASOS is flogging this week. Going to the post room to collect endless parcels.

          3. Cute videos she just has to share with her friends.

          4. Social media updates, all day, every day.

          5. Forgetting password.

          6. Being late for work because 'poppy' (her little car) has run out of petrol.

          7. Getting high heels stuck in floor grating.

          8. Being all emotional because of an argument about nothing with partner, friend, pet, whatever, and the need to recount the argument multiple times, in real-time, to every one of her acquaintances.

          9. Over use of the word 'like' in conversation.

          10. Same with vocal fry and uptalk - the man she's asking for basic help will have long assumed he's taking to an imbecile and frame the answer accordingly.

          11. Every little bump in the road is met with tears.

          12. Refusing to come into work because a colleague of hers has the same top/shoes/lipstick/earrings.

          13. She'll get pregnant and leave. By the time she comes back to work, three years later, a man will have finished the whole system.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

            >for the following reasons

            inb4 everyone says you aren't trolling and blames you for all inequalities

          2. msknight Silver badge

            Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

            > It's scientific fact

            I'll own up to number 2. :-) ... but that's all your getting! ... and it's actually from Farnell, DigiKey and the like.

        4. Handle123456

          Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

          > Taking up a position against bigotry automatically makes you an SJW

          > these days and a valid target for attack. When all else fails and you

          > can't shoot the message... shoot the messenger.

          You are not taking a position against bigotry. You ARE a bigot!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

        "My AS400 programming instructor was a women"

        Those that can, do...

        1. Voyna i Mor Silver badge

          Re: I'm not sure why I'm doing this in the 21st century but....

          "Those that can, do"

          Had you actually attended a good university, you'd know that the next bit is "and the best of them make the best teachers."

          Feynman for starters.

          Shaw's dislike of teachers is explained by his having attended four very poor schools in Ireland and not having gone to university. Heck, Joyce went to what was considered a good school in Ireland and thought it was crap. I had the good fortune to go to a first class grammar school and a small university in East Anglia, and I have some idea of what it takes to be a good teacher. You cannot teach programming well if you can't do it.

  11. This post has been deleted by its author

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I thought Lottie Dexter proved beyond all doubt...

    ...that chicks simply don't get tech, in the same way as we males don't get lippie, pastel coloured cars, and £10 dresses. Each to their own.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I thought Lottie Dexter proved beyond all doubt...

      >in the same way as we males don't get lippie, pastel coloured cars, and £10 dresses

      Am I the only cisgendered straight white submissive femboy who disagrees?

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Page 2

    And no jokes about Stephen King's IT. A sad day for The Register.

  14. Brian Allan 1

    Men and women are different as if anyone didn't already know this! Isn't it just possible the women involved were paid what they were worth to the company!?

  15. Alistair Silver badge
    Windows

    And here I was, sitting around

    with my flame thrower handy.

    The baseline in the article is that there are a whole group of females at Google, working pretty much across the range of roles at the company -- *cough* which includes clearly non tech roles, sueing Google because they were getting disparate pay rates, less than their male counterparts, in equal roles.

    This sounds very like there may be discrimination at work, thus a court will decide. Or someone somewhere will decide to settle out of court.

    Bluntly, I don't give on rats ass who you are, what colour your various body hair are, where you grew up or who you do when you do you, but if there are bodies doing the same job, with the same effective seniority and skills, they should be paid the same. Period.

    Would I like to see more females in IT? Hell yes, I find grumpy old bastards like myself rather unattractive. And I've found in general that the women I *have* worked with had far better senses of humour. Especially when it came to battering my ego to the ground.

    msk: I'll leave you to the flame throwing, you're doing a far better job at it than I would. I'd have resorted to all sorts of sweary stuff by now.

    1. DainB Bronze badge

      Re: And here I was, sitting around

      "but if there are bodies doing the same job, with the same effective seniority and skills, they should be paid the same. Period."

      You would never find two salaried male employees who have same age, exactly the same skills and paid exactly the same even within one team of company, let alone company-wide, so why do you expect different rules should apply to women ?

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