back to article Windows Store nixed Google Chrome 'app' hours after it went live

Microsoft has bounced a Google Chrome Installer out of its Windows Store, just hours after making it available for download. Google's "Chrome" app was a minimalist offering – merely sending the user to the official Chrome download app. In a statement to the press, Microsoft said it had removed the Chrome Installer because it …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Every day the likes of Google and Microsoft push me further and further out of their domain. I stopped using Google search 2 years ago, Chrome long before that; I stopped using Hotmail 3 years ago, Office long before that. I already have OpenSUSE on dual-boot, it feels like it won't be long before I take the "dual" out of that, or at least push Windows to the side, just use it for games that won't run on Linux.

    1. Just Enough

      Congrats!

      You are the first on this story about Microsoft Windows to take the time to inform everyone that you use Linux.

      Thanks for sharing.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Congrats!

          Me too. And Windows. And Android.

          I also use Gmail and Hotmail.

          Do I win a prize?

      2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

        Re: Congrats!

        "You are the first on this story about Microsoft Windows to take the time to inform everyone that you use Linux."

        I haven't read all the comments yet, but no doubt there's also some sanctimonius post from someone who uses ad-blocker.

      3. P. Lee Silver badge
        Holmes

        Re: Congrats!

        But the story isn't really about Windows.

        Its about:

        1. The windows store doing the right thing (by its users) and junking third-party installers for big-name software. They are almost always going to lead to bad things.

        2. The windows store doing the wrong thing (by its users) and blocking alternatives to MS products.

        So its actually an ecosystem story and in that context, talk of ditching increasingly closed ecosystems is valid comment. In fact, I'm not sure how you can comment on app store policy without commenting on ecosystem issues.

        And in the spirit of sharing, opensuse here (including steam gaming), though with xfce since kde stability has gone to the dogs on my particular kit. BSD (pfsense) on the firewall and mail servers.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The point Geniality is making is perfectly valid and relevant. There are many of us who use both, me included. Until Windows 10, I didn't really care which I was using, so long as it had the tools I needed, the only time I rebooted between them was when the tool was in one and not the other. Since Windows 10, my laptop no longer dual boots and I do as much as I can in Linux on the PC, because it doesn't interrupt me with forced updates and reboots.

      This is another decision, in the long line of recent MS decisions that are pushing users away, the users who are most easily pushed away are those with somewhere else to go (Linux, MacOS, the BSDs).

      By not allowing Chrome in the Windows Store, it results in a worse end-user experience - we have to keep the Chrome updater instead of it updating through the Store. You must have heard us Linux fanboys going on about "one click updates" to update everything (apps & OS) - this is MS's opportunity to have the same seamless updating by using the Windows Store + Windows Update, and they're throwing it away over a rendering engine.

      The Windows Store is also their opportunity to reprogram users into getting software from the Store, instead of all the unverifiable websites out there hosting who knows what. That can only improve Windows security.

      A rendering engine is not worth the negativity it'll bring to the Windows Store.

      1. Naselus

        "A rendering engine is not worth the negativity it'll bring to the Windows Store."

        Given that basically no-one uses it anyway, will it really make a difference at this point? I think that ship had already rather sailed.

      2. Steve the Cynic

        Since Windows 10, my laptop no longer dual boots and I do as much as I can in Linux on the PC, because it doesn't interrupt me with forced updates and reboots.

        Windows 10 has never interrupted me with anything like that. Sure, it tells me there's an update, and offers to reboot, but it has *never* forced the issue. (That said, at work I use FreeBSD...)

        1. JohnFen Silver badge

          "Windows 10 has never interrupted me with anything like that."

          You're lucky. Despite telling Windows not to, it consistently reboots to install updates whenever it damned well feels like it.

          The fall creator's update was extra annoying, because it took a full hour to complete the update. What did I get in exchange for being unable to work for an hour? Not a damned thing.

          Windows 10 is one of the most annoying and infuriating OSes that I've used.

          1. keith_w

            you are aware, are you not, that you can tell W10 when to install updates? Including when you are not there to be interrupted?

            1. Donn Bly

              @keith_w

              you are aware, are you not, that you can tell W10 when to install updates? Including when you are not there to be interrupted

              The "Choose When Updates Are Installed" option lets you select between which Semi-Annual update channel to which you wish to subscribe. It does not, however, let you specify a time.

              There is no option in my W10 that allows me to tell it when to install updates such as the 3AM default on earlier versions of the OS. The only thing you can do is give it a time window -- except that you can't give it an active time range of more than 18 hours, give it a split time window, or tell it which days -- and even then it still puts popups on the screen over the top of what you are working on DURING the "active hours".

              So, when I am watching a training video and Windows decides to reboot without visible warning (because the video is playing full screen) or when it reboots while I run grab a cup of coffee when I'm working later into the evening -- I'm f*cked.

      3. Tigra 07 Silver badge
        Trollface

        RE: AC

        One click updates?

        You mean there's a faster way than launching the updater, accepting (2nd click), and then typing in password?

        Yes, i'm trolling. It's still better than the Windows offering.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          RE: AC

          I use toilet paper. Both sides

          1. Rifter00

            Re: RE: AC

            Coming Soon.... Windows TP.

          2. Ilsa Loving

            Re: RE: AC

            "I use toilet paper. Both sides"

            So... A Windows 10 user then? :)

            1. Danny 14 Silver badge

              Re: RE: AC

              you can only choose update times if you are using enterprise AND wsus. Even then some updates can ignore the update time gpo.

              you also only get 2 years on feature updates. i have 1603 that ive not updated as im curious to see what will actually happen ccome march (it isnt internet connected at the moment)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: RE: AC

          "You mean there's a faster way than launching the updater, accepting (2nd click), and then typing in password?"

          Well yes, click the terminal icon and type 'sudo yum -y update', done.

          Yes, I'm trolling too. :)

      4. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        MUST use engines provided by Windows

        From the article:

        "Apps that browse the web must use the appropriate HTML and JavaScript engines provided by the Windows Platform"

        and (quoted from post I reply to)

        "This is another decision, in the long line of recent MS decisions that are pushing users away, the users who are most easily pushed away are those with somewhere else to go"

        The first quote (from the article) shows that "The Store" CRapps are [out of the box] *AUTOMATICALLY* *HOBBLED* by being forced into using a potentially *INFERIOR* system of HTML and JavaScript rendering/execution, with NO hope of providing your own tweeks and benefits [and filtering i.e. anti-spyware anti-malware] such that NOBODY can effectively compete with that "Edging" browser. So Chrome is _ALREADY_ on their "excrement list". But they wanted a presence in "The Store", so they made an INSTALLER instead. I totally get that.

        And the 2nd quote is a BRILLIANT assessment of where Micro-shaft currently is.

        I have to wonder if Micro-shaft is *ALSO* *HOBBLING* "The Store" UWP CRapps by (essentially) forcing them into having 2D FLATSO FLUGLY interfaces.

        Some recent experiences between me Micro-shaft have shown me that the rank/file people are REALLY TRYING to make customers happy and be reasonable. But their overall infrastructure AND bureaucracy, *ESPECIALLY* dealing with "The Store", has shown me that it's a *COMPLETE* *CLUSTER* *BLANK*. What used to work (let's say renew MSDN), but now *MUST* be done through "The Store", has broken, in a bad way. And though good people at low levels do their best to try and "fix it", and I most definitely appreciate their efforts, they are up against an INTERNAL BUREAUCRACY that is as OPPRESSIVE as [here comes the politics] a SOCIALIST DICTATORSHIP.

        But I've commented on that MANY times before, and I've experienced the effects of it first-hand. I've interpreted the results of "decisions from on high" within their corporation, and seen how a small number of "activist types" are driving the ship towards the rocks. I've seen (and then pointed out) specific people who are KNOWN to be responsible, none of whom seem to work for the company any more. And yet... STILL, the problems remain, and Micro-shaft CONTINUES to go down the SAME road to HELL as they were when they horked-up "The Metro", Win-10-nic, GWX, UWP, and "The Store".

        Yes... those who HAVE an alternative already are moving towards it. I pity those who do NOT.

        /me runs FreeBSD most of the time, with Linux and 'some windows' thrown in their, though I _still_ keep my MSDN subscription alive... I guess I'm nostalgically hopeful or something.

        1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: MUST use engines provided by Windows

          Dammnit Bob. By the time I managed to filter out the ranting, bad grammar, and RANDOM use OF capital LETTERS, you almost managed to make a good point.

          But then you wrote "SOCIALIST DICTATORSHIP" and your Fox-and-Friends alarm went off.

          Please explain what it worse about the (rare) Socialist dictatorships, compared to the much more common religious or capitalist-anarchic dictatorships?

          Quoting Alex Wong:

          "There's nothing inherent about communism or socialism that leads to being a dictatorship. There are democracies that are communist like Nepal, there are oligarchies like China and you have social democracies like Sweden, or flawed democracies like Venezuela. In comparison, look at capitalist countries. You have a brutal monarchy in Saudi Arabia that leads the world in human rights abuses, failed states like Afghanistan or Somalia, flawed democracies like Italy or one party states like Singapore, South Korea and Japan."

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        This:

        "This is another decision, in the long line of recent MS decisions that are pushing users away, the users who are most easily pushed away are those with somewhere else to go (Linux, MacOS, the BSDs)".

        Exactly. MS know they cannot "lock us in" as we have the knowledge to "circumvent" their attempted lock-ins. Therefore we aren't worth bothering with. For every one of us there are 10 users who don't know what Linux is or Android. THAT is the kind of user MS wants.

    3. MonkeyCee Silver badge

      So...

      "just use it for games that won't run on Linux."

      So you run Windows then. For the applications you want that aren't easily accessible on Linux. Yet to meet a game I can't run on Linux, but you often need a fully patched version on Windows, which often makes the whole exercise redundant.

      Look, I'm happy to get into "one true Scotsman/OS/text editor" arguments over the appropriate beverage, but in practice purists are down right frustrating. Most ideologues are also happy to be quite contrary when it comes to things they like/want. Like vegan tree huggers that don't see a problem with taking ecstasy or coke, but will lecture you on the environmental perils of coffee drinking and chocolate consumption.

      You use the tools appropriate for the job at hand. Depending on where you work, that may well mean that you use tools that other people have sourced which you wouldn't touch with a bargepole. I'd love to say to users "oh, you wrote a 400 page document in Word and now it's corrupted? Well, that'll learn ya, use LaTex next time, now off you fuck" but that's not very helpful.

      "I stopped using Google search 2 years ago"

      And replaced it with what? I'm serious here, I'll use anom methods of searching, but I find that most results are either from Google one way or another, or are just shit. For specific instances you don't need it, but then you're searching a specific database like PubMed. Which may be using Google products on it's back end, but you don't really know.

      "I stopped using Hotmail 3 years ago"

      I'd love to. In fact the only use I have for Hotmail is that it's part of my MS Live ID thingy, and that's required for me to be certified by MS. If I'm not certified and I bugger up something on a MS system, my indemnity insurance won't cover me, and that will cost me my savings, business and probably my house.

      "Office long before that"

      So no jobs in corporate then? Fair enough.

      I could also refuse to work on any MS systems. Let me know how many "pure" linux installations are out there in the real world that are not part of a tech/research outfit. Most of my clients are from non-tech sectors, and if they are really lucky they will have the choice of two business applications, both of which have the user facing stuff run on Windows. Sometimes there's only one vendor, also Windows only.

      I'm not a fan of MS business practices, and while I own Google stock, they are pretty shady too. But they are market leaders whose products are used by billions, so you you can't declare you're not going to use them and still find work in operations.

      I <3 linux too, for almost any dedicated system, or for fiddling in the software equivalent of "no user serviceable parts".

      As an example, I build GPU miners. They are about as solid in linux or windows, although you can crank a little more out of the cards in linux. However, the linux tools for bios editing (OSS) and overclocking are rubbish, so it would be impossible to work out a cards best performance in linux alone, and pretty hairy to flash those settings to BIOS for each test. But benchmark them in Windows then flash them in Windows and drop them into a linux box and they'll be just fine.

      Use the right tools for the job.

      1. AdamWill

        Re: So...

        "Look, I'm happy to get into "one true Scotsman/OS/text editor" arguments over the appropriate beverage, but in practice purists are down right frustrating."

        But, er, no-one claimed to be a purist. Both the OP and the person responding to him talked about using both Linux and Windows, but attempting to minimize their use of Google and Microsoft software as much as seemed practical to them. So...not purists, then. Sort of the opposite of purists, really. So...who are you arguing with, here, exactly?

      2. PeteA

        Re: So...

        Sorry, I'm only allowed to upvote you once.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I stopped using hotmail since left for dead ii came out

    5. Not That Andrew

      I'm no fan of the Windows Store but it's no more restrictive than most Linux distro's repositories

      1. Ilgaz

        Really?

        Please tell me one repository or even desktop policy that forces you to use a specific rendering engine or even library.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Would this inclusion have allowed it to be installed on Windows 10S?

    I doubt it but you never know.

    1. Stephen Clifford

      Nope - because it wasn't Chrome anyway.

      It was a link to the Chrome installer - which you then had to run to install Chrome itself.

      So, it still wouldn't have been installable on Windows 10 S.

      And, this isn't exactly Microsoft's fault - Google have shown they're willing to play by the rules to get Chrome into iOS, so they can do the same for Windows 10.

      People always complain about Windows and how on older PC's it runs slow - Windows 10 S is Microsoft's answer to that by trying to ensure that applications installed do pass basic quality assurance. And then people complain because Microsoft is stopping them doing what they used to do previously (which cause the problems in the first place).

      Oh - and let's not forget, anyone reading, and commenting in, The Reg are almost definitely going to consider themselves more of a 'Power User' than the majority of the population so lets take comments here with a pinch of salt on how they'd affect 'everyday users'.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "Google have shown they're willing to play by the rules to get Chrome into iOS, so they can do the same for Windows 10."

        That's the thing it is a game and a stupid one at that. You have Chrome by name but it's a completely different offering on IOS. So you can create a PWA with service workers and although Safari on IOS won't work with it (yet - although Safari on MAC OS will) you could just fire up Chrome, right? Wrong as Chrome on IOS isn't allowed to use service workers either and has to use a different rendering engine.

        Do we really want this extended to every platform each with their own renderers, quirks and features? Preferably not.

        Apple can get away with it because IOS is so big, Microsoft can't because Windows Mobile is non existent and the Windows store not required.

      2. Adam 1 Silver badge

        @Stephen, whilst you are correct to say that the installer won't work on Windows S, I don't think that is really the point. I'm sure the brains at Google could figure out how to build the same code base for multiple platform targets if that was the only barrier.

        The real barrier to choice is the requirement to be a wrapper around Edge. This isn't a technical constraint, but a commercial one. Do you want to associate your brand with the capabilities and performance or otherwise of the Edge rendering engine? Whilst it is an OK browser in my view (and certainly the best they have managed to produce to date), there already exists a perfectly acceptable Edge browser for those who want to experience that rendering engine. There is no need for a second one with a different logo.

        They made a choice to wrapper Safari on iOS. I believe that was a mistake. They should have written a blog post on why they cannot produce a real Chrome browser on iOS due to Apple policies, express regret, and express hope that they may one day permit the world's best* browser to be enjoyed by those choosing the iOS platforms for tablet and phones. As it stands, they are second class citizens. Even though the same rendering engine is used, performance can never equal Safari because of differences in the threading models between the built in Safari browser and what apps can do. So your page will now render with the safari quirks, not implement a bunch of standards that all the others (including Edge) do, but do so even slower than the one that comes preinstalled. Where do I sign up? I'm guessing they did it to drive Chrome on MacOS. If there's a few more generations of ho hum same same notched fashion accessories and market share drops to the fanboys only, watch Google drop support for it.

        *Yeah I know

        1. Stephen Clifford

          "The real barrier to choice is the requirement to be a wrapper around Edge. This isn't a technical constraint, but a commercial one. Do you want to associate your brand with the capabilities and performance or otherwise of the Edge rendering engine? Whilst it is an OK browser in my view (and certainly the best they have managed to produce to date), there already exists a perfectly acceptable Edge browser for those who want to experience that rendering engine. There is no need for a second one with a different logo."

          As I said though, people reading The Reg are more likely 'Pro' users at least. The vast majority of people on the street really don't care about rendering engines within web browsers. What they want is a web browser that syncs between their mobile, their tablet and their computer with a reassuring icon between all device types. If I bookmark something on my tablet, I want it to be there on my PC when I load up the browser. There are ALSO a lot of users who see the 'Chrome' icon now as 'The Internet'. I remember trying to explain to my step mother a few years back when she got an iPad that she had to tap the Safari icon to browse the web and in the end just gave up and installed Chrome because she could never see the icon.

          A 'wrapper' for Edge that skins it to look like Chrome and syncs with your Google account would be EXACTLY what a lot of users would want.

          1. Adam 1 Silver badge

            that's backwards

            You seem to think it is Google's job to make iOS easier to use. There are plenty of tablets out there which can run chrome/Firefox/opera/Vivaldi/palemoon and would happily run Edge or Safari if the authors of those browsers elected to publish them. I too have some family who .... struggle .... with things technical, but even they learn very quickly after you show them the "internet button". Of all the .... limitations .... in Safari, for me, the icon is way down on the list. In fact, I will admit to liking that icon. If they need to see the Chrome icon, any of those tablets will suffice.

            The rendering engine isn't some abstract concept. It is the biggest difference between ie6 and modern Chrome. Poor* rendering engines directly hurt your experience. They may be slow, use more memory, draw incorrectly (or fail to draw), and fail to protect you from threats by ignoring CSP rules. It directly influences whether you think your tablet is too old which costs you real money if you buy a new one.

            *and add to that poorly maintained

      3. PeteA
        Trollface

        <quote> Windows 10 S is Microsoft's answer to that by trying to ensure that applications installed do pass basic quality assurance.</quote>

        Ha ha ha. That's an interesting explanation for the windows app store...

  3. wallaby

    Damn,

    one day....... one day maybe someone will post a story about Microsoft that wont get usurped by the penguins and turned into a story about Linux

    Nah...... have them keep quiet - never happen

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      And I have to wonder why people get so sensitive over an operating system. Linux is an alternative to it, so why not bring it up in the context of a negative story about Windows? As the article mentions, the Windows Store is filled with scam apps, it's not my fault Microsoft (or Google) can't fix their own storefront.

      1. wallaby

        Had Douglas Adams been alive today he might have re used his line thus :-

        "who cursed and swore at him from a moral high ground that Linux users alone seem able to inhabit"

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          I didn't claim any high ground, I just claimed it as an alternative. Hell, I even pointed out that I'd still use Windows, because it's a tool that has advantages over its competition. This is what I don't get, two gigantic corporations are having a pissing contest over apps and people are getting defensive because someone points out there's an alternative.

        2. Teiwaz Silver badge

          Mr Adams, have an apple...

          Had Douglas Adams been alive today he might have re used his line thus :-

          "who cursed and swore at him from a moral high ground that Linux users alone seem able to inhabit"

          But then, the late Mr Adams was a long time Apple fan....although it never stopped him being critical when he thought they'd made a poor choice...

      2. Naselus

        "Linux is an alternative to it, so why not bring it up in the context of a negative story about Windows?"

        Because it's completely irrelevant to a story about Google Chrome being rejected from a single distribution channel to an operating system that is not Linux? Or because, in many cases, the sparse ecosystem of 2nd-rate Open Source apps means Linux actually isn't an alternative (go ask Munich how effective their Linux switchout was), and so endlessly hunting for excuses to bring it up is a complete waste of time?

        Also, Windows users aren't actually sensitive about their OS - every Windows story is accompanied by plenty of people pointing out the flaws with the operating system and bitching about Microsoft. That doesn't mean they should have to put up with a constant deluge of pointless 'Personally, I use Linux and now I sit atop a pile of smug self-satisfaction about it, assured that merely installing a 15-month old copy of Mint has made me a computing God' posts. Who's it going to convince? I'm not likely to nip over to my bosses' office and tell him we need to re-image 15000 PCs with Linux just because a 17-year old found he could browser porn on Ubuntu just as effectively as on Windows.

        A negative Linux story, on the other hand, is invariably the site of much whataboutism ("Well, maybe this kernel bug means that there's a raging escalation of privilege exploit in the wild, but what about when Windows 98 did something similar 19 years ago?") and denial. Plus, there's that insecure need to constantly inject it into every conversation regardless of whether it's remotely relevant, like a 17 year old who's just read The Communist Manifesto and now needs to make it clear he's a Marxist every time you ask him what he wants for dinner.

        So really, which group is oversensitive about its favourite OS?

        1. wallaby
          Pint

          Damn, only one upvote allowed Naselus or Id be sending a bucketload

          1. Charles 9 Silver badge

            Plus you have to understand that Stupid Users WAY outnumber smart users and THEIR dollars are what tell Microsoft's board what to do given Stupid Users also outSPEND smart users by their sheer numbers. This means Microsoft has to cater to Stupid Users who wouldn't know an worm from a clickbait AND can take other people with them when things go wrong. And us Smart Users have to realize we live in a world surrounded by Stupid (and not just Stupid, Cockbill Street Stupid who refuse who acknowledge their own stupidity).

            And for those who say Linux is all sunshine, remind them of Slapper.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Humans are fallible, humans create operating systems therefore operating systems are fallible.

              To err is human but to really foul things up you need a computer - Unknown (Senator Soaper Says?)

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Linux

      "one day maybe someone will post a story about Microsoft that wont get usurped by the penguins"

      Micro-shaft would have to roll back their business strategies and internal policies NEARLY TWO DECADES for *THAT* to happen. Their current stupidity began when Ballmer took the helm, with the ".Not" initiative [which eventually morphed into the 'windows logon' that Win-10-nic practically STRONGARMS you into], which was originally called "Passport", and all of the big "dot com" people laughed hysterically at [as in 'why must we pay a toll to Micro-shaft for what we do already for FREE???'].

      SO... as long as Micro-shaft continues to do STUPID THINGS and make STUPID POLICIES, I'm sure that the ratio of unfavorable to favorable articles will continue to be a value significantly greater than one. And "the penguins" (I guess I'm one too, even though I'm running FBSD for day-to-day things) will continue to point out, as a public service, the ~superior~ choice of alternative (and free) OS known as Linux.

      1. Geoffrey W Silver badge

        RE: And "the penguins" [...] will continue to point out, as a public service, [Their superiority]

        And thus, given the chance and sufficient motivation, I will continue to troll Linux articles and attempt to derail the following comments, highlighting the admittedly exaggerated faults in the feathery community of short legged, useless winged, waddlers. It's childish but, given the level of irritating provocation from such as yourself, it's also supremely satisfying. Back to your guano stained icy colonies with you!

        1. wallaby
          Pint

          Geoffrey W I commend you

      2. wallaby

        Oh Bob.....

        CHANGE of Meds AGAIN?

      3. TonyJ Silver badge

        Honestly....Microshaft, Micro$oft, Slurp, yada yada yada yada

        Even if good points are made, puerile and childish name calling detracts from it to the point a lot of people don't even bother to read what's said.

        The points that both sides forget all too often are that it's about choice. Yes, really - your average user will choose to buy a computer from the likes of PC World, Dell, HP or even Tesco or Sainsbury's and because it ships with a copy of Windows installed (and it's what they most likely use at work) and it'll run the Office package they mostly know (also from work) and the games they or their kids want to play then they are happy with their choice.

        They will never open a machine up, drill down into the guts of either the hardware of software. They don't want to.

        The same people happily use Facebook, Google and any other number of sites that gobble up their personal information so the stuff that Windows 10 sends back is of less than no concern to them.

        Having had to dig too many people out of the shit in the past because they had hookie copies of XP that wouldn't update, personally, I believe no home versions of Windows should prevent users from (or rather allow users not to) applying updates. Ever. Rather the occasionally borked machine than one with more holes than your average sieve.

        Likewise you may be more computer savvy (most certainly if you comment here) and your choice may be one of the many many versions of Linux out there and you really probably enjoy tweaking and playng.

        I run both for whatever tools or applications suit my need but I don't feel the need to shout about either or cuss the choices of others.

        Likewise, I dont feel the need to constantly complain about things that I last experienced 10 or even 20 years ago - a lot of MS software has moved on. Try some of it. Hell I even got downvoted recently for pointing out that LIbre Office 5.03 (I think it was) had included the option of allowing you to have a ribbon just like MS introduced with Office over a decade ago and to which still dozens of commentards here foam at the mouth about....look around you people....office workers and home users have adapted to it and just get on with it. Hell it's worth saying twice - it's been over a decade...it's not going away.

        Seriously....for people that espouse the benefits of the right to choose, some of you are very anti-choice when it doesn't match your personal ideal or idea of the "right" choice!

        I've said it before - both sides of this fence need to grow up some. It's an OS not a religion.

        1. Geoffrey W Silver badge

          Yeah, about that ribbon thing: It's good to see Libre Office is carrying on the Microsoft tradition by making me foam at the mouth. If anyone is tempted to try it out, I can only say beware. I turned it on, then I set one of the alternative display options other than the default, which resulted in a cut-down ribbon with fewer settings. I then discovered there was no way to turn it off again. Nothing on the ribbon itself and the standard menu's became disabled, so no way back to the real world. Well, damn!

          I'm sure there is probably a work around I was unable to discover but...watch out! In the end I just reset the configuration, which lost all my additions and settings. BAH! I should probably mention it on the Libre Office site but I'm still foaming.

        2. Updraft102 Silver badge

          personally, I believe no home versions of Windows should prevent users from (or rather allow users not to) applying updates.

          You seem to share the same confusion as Microsoft over the meaning of the word "ownership." The owner of the computer gets to decide when and whether updates happen. If you're not going to let me (as a hypothetical home user) pick and choose, you've got some 'splaining to do as to why you think you now own my PC even though I can show you the sales receipt proving it's mine. That's the long and short of it right there, and the bit about "otherwise it will be full of security holes" doesn't even enter into it. The ends (having an ostensibly "safe" computer) do not justify the means.

    3. Teiwaz Silver badge

      Running from or running to...?

      one day....... one day maybe someone will post a story about Microsoft that wont get usurped by the penguins and turned into a story about Linux

      If it were 'about' Linux, it would all be about what qualities it has that people flock to use it.

      All these 'gospels' of the good news are all people running from the annoyances they are fed up with on Windows. Still 'about' Windows after all...

  4. Craigie

    Another reason the MS 'store' will never catch on

    'You can only have apps that use our markup rendering engine'. eh, jog on MS. There is no such restriction in any other modern store or market for any platform. Grow a set and let people choose what they browse with, or they'll just continue to choose to not use your 'store' as they do now.

    1. Naselus

      Re: Another reason the MS 'store' will never catch on

      Apple insist that you use Webkit for iOS browser apps, and yet people use their store. Which kind of undermines every single point in your post in a single sentence.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Store is a Verb

    The word you're looking for is "shop".

    (Not that I really care; just felt like pointing that out.)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Store is a Verb

      It's also a noun as in a store of something, a place where you store things, and also for some kinds of shops, such as a department store.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Store is a Verb

        across the pond, we call them "stores" more than "shops".

        So I'll go to the store, put the groceries in the trunk, get on the elevator, etc.

        2 nations separated by one language [heh]

        1. TonyJ Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: Store is a Verb

          "...2 nations separated by one language [heh].."

          Yup....British English and English (Simplified)

          1. Eddy Ito Silver badge
            Trollface

            Re: Store is a Verb

            ... English (Simplified)

            Simplified?!?! Don't I wish. At least it's better than some of the other ones you lot have over there. I mean what's up with those "romance" languages where verbs change based on who is performing the action and yet as often as not folk will still use the redundant pronoun. And forget that spoons and bowls having gender which changes the article preceding it. Maybe some simplification would be an improvement.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Store is a Verb

      Hmm - "Great Universal Stores" was a UK mail order company in the 1960s. "International Stores" was a chain of high street small supermarkets in the 1970s. Tesco was always a "store" not a "shop" - as was "Harrods".

      Store in England tends to be used for the larger retailers - shop is usually something smaller. A bit like the French "magasin" and "boutique" distinctions.

    3. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: Store is a Verb

      That depends on what part of the world you live in.

    4. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: Store is a Verb

      There's a shop near me which claims to be a warehouse. It also claims to sell carphones though I haven't seen one of those for a few decades.

    5. albaleo

      Re: Store is a Verb

      As a kid in Edinburgh, "going to the store" referred only to the Co-op.

  6. Laughing Gravy

    I use Linux

    Because Windows is shite. Hope that helps

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I use Linux

      I use both because I'm not a rabid fanboy of either.

    2. Lysenko

      Re: I use Linux

      I write software for Linux and embedded microcontrollers - on Windows. I have three physical Linux machines (not counting servers) and any number of VMs, but 90% of my work is conducted on Windows[1], even though I haven't deployed anything on that platform for half a decade.

      This isn't really relevant to the discussion either, but it (hopefully) might enrage a fanboi or two.

      [1] Because: Visual Studio ... and yes I know about VSCode and I have a JetBrains subscription I use for Kotlin. Vim or Emacs? I'd rather change career. Eclipse? Hahahaha ...yeah ...right after I start developing in PHP ... or Visual FoxPro.

      1. MacroRodent Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: I use Linux

        > I write software for Linux and embedded microcontrollers - on Windows

        Well, whatever works for you. With me it is the opposite: I write Linux software and am most productive on that platform. It annoys me no end that the company technology choices force me to hop to the Windows side for various tasks (one of those companies that Microsoft now holds firmly by the balls with Office365 and sharepoint- there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth when they start tightening the screws...).

        > Vim or Emacs?

        That old canard. Those never were the only choices, and especially not now. I use Emacs since I learned it by heart back when my brain was more malleable, and text-only terminals ruled, but someone now coming from Windows will have no problem finding GUI editors with UI essentially indistiguishable from typical Windows editors (or even the very same code, as in the VSCode you mentioned).

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: I use Linux

          " I write Linux software and am most productive on that platform"

          ack - at first I didn't know how well 'gedit' (and then 'pluma') did as an editor, so I used VS. But within a short time, I discovered that syntax highlighting in 'gedit' (and then 'pluma') does a FANTASTIC job of making it posible to use those applications to edit things on Linux or BSD natively. I do miss "virtual space" though, which is why I'm [off and on] working on my OWN IDE. [I've got some time off for a month or so, maybe I can work on it some more].

          It took a bit of a learning curve, to familiarize myself with autotools, to get the 'Makefile' syntax down pat [both for BSD-style and GNU-style Makefiles], to completely familiarize myself with how the gcc and clang environments work, etc. etc. but it's paid off and NOW very easy to set up an application that builds/runs under Linux, BSD, Cygwin, OSX, and maybe even Win32 if I bother to add the '#if' blocks for "the differences". And if I need GUI stuff, GTK and wxWidgets do pretty well for me.

          I keep MSDN anyway because, you never know when you'll need it for something. [getting my IDE and toolkit to build cross-platform for winders would be a good reason]

        2. Lysenko

          Re: I use Linux

          @MacroRodent

          but someone now coming from Windows will have no problem finding GUI editors with UI essentially indistiguishable from typical Windows editors

          If you're coming from Java riddled monstrosities like Eclipse and (for a lesser value of monstrous) IntelliJ then I'd agree with you, just like OpenOffice on Windows is just as bad as the Linux version. I'm not discussing cross-platform lowest common denominator-ware though.

          In any case, I don't need to "come from" Windows. All my dev work is Linux or bare metal already and I have three Linux dev machines and one Windows (VMs complicate hardware interfaces). I don't need to "see the light". I've been using Linux for years (xcfe-Mint, CentOS and Yocto, mostly) and I know exactly what it is capable of.

          Today, for example, I was doing web stuff. Linux has no answer to either PhotoShop or Illustrator, even if we set the coding aside. How do I know that? Because I just spent half the day in Gimp and Inkscape. The issue isn't that I'm unaware of Linux tools or unable to use them. It is that I am aware, can use them, do use them - and judge them to be inferior in most cases (PCB CAD being an exception).

          1. DrBed
            WTF?

            Re: I use Linux

            I'm not sure now are you a troll or you just publicly admitted that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

            Those stupid arguments about "Vim & Emacs vs VS" - well, just came from last century, I don't want to mess with that FUD.

            BUT THIS:

            > Today, for example, I was doing web stuff. Linux has no answer to either PhotoShop or Illustrator, even if we set the coding aside. How do I know that? Because I just spent half the day in Gimp and Inkscape.

            FYI, I run from Win few years ago. Last thing to keep me was PhotoShop. Then I realized i can use it @Linux under Wine or VirtualBox. But right now, for years, I'm using Gimp for every professional need I have, just with a little help of Krita and Scribus (for CMYK, PDF). It is far more superior then PS (which is a great tool), in many aspects.

            And what about vectors? Inkscape has weird interface for newbies, but it is much superior then AI. Just take a look at the best tracer on market. Beside, accomplished with FontForge, you'll get all power you need for making pro fonts. And there's much, much more.

            Friendly advice: you said "I was doing web stuff". Just try Gravit Designer, don't mumble about XX century tools. It runs equally great on platform you prefer (I didn't try it @Win, but it can't be so awfull).

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Lysenko - Re: I use Linux

        If the only editors you know are Vim and Emacs then I strongly doubt you've ever really used Linux.

        Don't need to change career, just stop mentioning the word Linux.

        1. Lysenko

          Re: @Lysenko - I use Linux

          If the only editors you know are Vim and Emacs then I strongly doubt you've ever really used Linux.

          What did you have in mind? Geany? GEdit? Atom? I already mentioned I use IntelliJ (also the Pycharm and CLion variants) for some things and consider Eclipse to be a bad joke. VSCode? A pale shadow of the real thing (better than Atom though).

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I use Linux

      I use the shake and vac because it brings the freshness back. Hope that helps too but these days it's febreze.

  7. Len Goddard

    Windows has a store?

    The only store I ever use on my windows box is Steam ... because I don't use windoze for anything other than playing games which don't work on Linux.

  8. Captain Scarlet Silver badge

    snub the platform by withholding big-name apps like YouTube and Google Maps

    Whats wrong with using favourites in youir browser of choice?

    1. jaywin

      Re: snub the platform by withholding big-name apps like YouTube and Google Maps

      They already did that with Windows Phone. Google blocked the (pretty good) MS supplied YouTube app because it wasn't written in HTML5. The Google maps website is pretty unusable on Windows Phone too.

      1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

        Re: snub the platform by withholding big-name apps like YouTube and Google Maps

        > Google blocked the (pretty good) MS supplied YouTube app because it wasn't written in HTML5.

        No. Google blocked it because the MS app broached the site's terms of service.

        > The Google maps website is pretty unusable on Windows Phone too.

        Google makes money from ads. The more users it has, the more money it makes. Google does not make money from Android or Chrome (except that they are Google users). Thus, it is quite happy to have Windows users, Windows Phone users, iOS and MacOS users access its sites so it can send ads to them.

        It makes no sense for Google to block _any_ access that users may make, except where the terms of service are broken. It does make sense that Microsoft wants to direct users to its own sites or otherwise prevent Google from making money.

        1. LDS Silver badge

          " Google blocked it because the MS app broached the site's terms of service."

          And now MS blocked Google because it broke the store rules... the one setting the rules always win, right?

          1. TechnicalBen Silver badge

            A duck is not a teapot.

            Microsoft made an app that used by Google's API services and "YouTube". Google made thier own software, a web browser, to distribute on Microsoft's store.

            While one or both of them may have broken rules, they are different things and ownership is in different places. Do you need to reapply your argument in a different way?

            Tit for tat or two wrongs don't make it right. But Google breaking terms of service will result in removal.

            Personally I think Google should be allowed to make the app, but at the same time Microsoft should be forced to remove the store from existence for being so scam ridden!

  9. Lars Johansson
    Coat

    Final defeat in the Browser Continuation War

    If MS allowed Chrome into the MS Store, it would mark it's final defeat in the Browser Continuation War, as there would no longer be any purpose or use for it's own bundled browsers. Seeing as their primary, neigh only, use is downloading the Chrome installer...

    1. Psy-Q

      Re: Final defeat in the Browser Continuation War

      Remember when it was the same with Internet Explorer in the 90s, when people only used that to download Netscape Navigator or later Firefox? And then Microsoft aggressively made IE the default, and soon IE was the dominant browser.

      Maybe it can happen again. Although Google is a powerful rival, they seem to shotgun the Chrome installer all over the place and bundle it with thousands of unrelated products. I've seen people using Chrome by default who usually don't even know how to install software, so they must have managed to install *that* somehow.

  10. Palpy

    OS wars aside --

    -- Windows, Mac, and Android all seem to have trouble with their official app stores. Malware and fakes seem to be common. Apps coded to ask for more permissions than they need to operate add to security risks.

    Independently-curated repositories (Debian, Fedora, Slackware, etc) seem to be less bad. The downside is that often these repositories lack the most up-to-date version of a software.

    For a long time we had a wild-west array of Win32 software online -- I got burned once downloading paint.net when in a hurry, and got a malware-barnacled version. I suppose the official Windows store is an attempt to mitigate that, but -- like the other official stores -- it appears to come with as many problems as it attempts to solve.

    For that reason, I tend to stick with old-style Windows applications, downloaded and Clammed once on a Linux machine, then scanned again on the internet-isolated Windows box before installation there. (As always comes out in these discussions, usage cases vary widely, and it's pointless arguing them; my case happens to not need Windows for anything much, so my lone Win10 machine seldom gets booted. But it's there if I want it.)

    1. JohnFen Silver badge

      Re: OS wars aside --

      "The downside is that often these repositories lack the most up-to-date version of a software."

      Which isn't really that much of a downside. For the most part, there's very little value in having the most up-to-date version of anything on any OS. And if you really need it, you can still get it regardless of whether it's int he repository or not.

    2. LDS Silver badge

      Re: OS wars aside --

      The difference is those repositories are not money sources. So you'll not make money from look-alikes or other scams. It may also be more difficult to get into those repositories with unknown applications, and anyway, you'll reach a limited number of users - the "app stores" front ends are designed to lure users into installing more stuff, unlike repos where you usually look for something you already know.

      But as seen in other articles, other repositories, like the WordPress one, are being used to deliver nasty code.

  11. x 7

    I don't understand: what is this Windows Store and why are people using it?

    If I want Google chrome I go to Google and download the chrome installer

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Here's a hint: Windows 10 S (which BTW is built into a number of devices and can't be removed). The Store is the ONLY source for apps on S.

      1. Hans 1 Silver badge
        Holmes

        Windows 10 S

        is the new Windows RT ... useless!

  12. Tigra 07 Silver badge
    Pint

    Embarassing...

    Karma for bullying Vivaldi, Google. Do as you would have others do onto you.

  13. FordPrefect

    Hah put chrome on the windows store and nobody will ever have a reason to use edge!

    1. sabroni Silver badge

      Yeah, and once chrome is the only browser in use we can go back to a web that only works on one browser! Won't that be great?

    2. nkuk

      but they would be using edge, with a Chrome logo. Scummy Microsoft forces anything in the Store to use its web renderer, meaning that Chrome would be Chrome in name only and Edge in function.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        So how come Google is willing to use the Safari engine on an iPhone but isn't willing to use the Edge engine on Windows Phone, given the circumstances are similar?

        1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

          > So how come Google is willing to use the Safari engine on an iPhone but isn't willing to use the Edge engine on Windows Phone, given the circumstances are similar?

          Because both Safari and Chrome renderers are based on WebKit (which itself is derived from KHTML from the KDE project used by Konqueror and others).

          Also "Windows Phone" never ran Edge, Windows 10 Mobile is dead. This is about Windows Store for Windows 10 desktop and Chrome does not need to be in the store because it can be downloaded from Google.

          1. Charles 9 Silver badge

            Except you CAN'T download it from Google if you're using Windows 10 S, which is part of the problem. In 10 S, apps can ONLY come from the Store, which means if Chrome can't get on the Store, they're SOL. Which STILL begs the question. How come Google is willing to use Apple's web engine to get on iOS devices but is not willing to use the Edge engine to get on Microsoft's store? Why the different stances in two similar situations?

            1. Richard Plinston Silver badge

              > How come Google is willing to use Apple's web engine to get on iOS devices but is not willing to use the Edge engine to get on Microsoft's store? Why the different stances in two similar situations?

              As has been already answered: Chrome and Safari both use WebKit derived browser engines so there was almost zero effort in getting Chrome to use 'Apple's web engine' - it is the _same_ engine (though Google added some enhancements to make WebKit into Blink).

              > In 10 S, apps can ONLY come from the Store, which means if Chrome can't get on the Store, they're SOL.

              It is the 10 S _users_ that are SOL. They are stuck with Edge only.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Windows 10 S might as well be RT v2.0: users won't like not being able to run the software of their choice, regardless of the reasons why. (Which is why last time I heard MS was offering paid updates to the non-S version of Windows 10).

              As for different stances that you seem to have chosen/been paid not to understand, Google may be willing to play ball with Apple for the reasons already stated, plus the fact Apple have a large number of valuable users on their popular store. Microsoft's store, on the other hand, is a ghost town full of nothing much and isn't worth the effort even IF Google was willing to tarnish the Chrome name by putting a wrapper and their logo on something as inferior as IE/Edge. It'd be like asking BMW to put their badge on junk yard scrapper cars that barely run and inflicted all kinds of problems on the user. Why would anyone want to tarnish their brand by being associated with Microsoft's junk?

  14. JohnFen Silver badge

    Bad requirements

    This requirement that browsers have to use the OS-provided HTML engine is awful. It was awful when Apple did it, and it's awful when Microsoft copies it. That they have these requirements is great motivation to avoid their platforms.

  15. David 132 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    That Store screenshot is depressing and alarming

    If Microsoft's store curators can't (or won't) even weed out obvious shitware like "GoGo Chome" and "Saffari Browser" then what are the odds that they're thoroughly scanning the apps for malware?

    I mean, "curated, safe, trustworthy" are pretty much the only reasons a user might download from an app store rather than a website.

    Frankly, looking at that screenshot, I'd feel safer downloading my windows software from the Pirate Bay (which has a pretty effective peer review system*)

    * so I've heard. Allegedly. I wasn't there, you can't pin anything on me.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: That Store screenshot is depressing and alarming

      Came here to say the same thing. It's depressing. But yet have you seen the start menu on a vanilla install of Windows 10 Pro? Loads of tiles of shitware

      1. TechnicalBen Silver badge
        Holmes

        The unreported news.

        Is that it is not just third party companies who are targets and spam falling through the checks. Paint, MS word etc all also bring up tones of vectors for scams when searched for.

        I've not checked a second time after seeing it on a friends pc years ago (win 8.0 iirc) even though I still have a 8.1 install (yes I know the smallest of the install base... but Win 10 would be suicide and why waste time installing anything else... with exception to when support ends or the device dies).

  16. Lorribot

    If only one could dual boot an iPhone or Samsung S8 with any combo of Windows Phone/Android/iOS/Tuzen/Linux/ANOther that you chose, that would be happy days indeed, and it would offer plenty more opportunity to bemoan other peoples choices, but at least we would have a choice.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Hypervisors

      All the way down?

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    User choice is bad for big corporations

    A user having freedom of choice can not be easily monetized.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: User choice is bad for big corporations

      Plus some people HATE choice: Information Overload leading to Indecision Anxiety (both real-world conditions). Whatever happened to Keep It Simple, Stupid, especially for the Stupid User?

  18. mark l 2 Silver badge

    It seems like MS are wanting to copy Apple by restricting the browsers on the Windows 10 store only use their own rendering engine. The difference is that the iOS app store has millions of users actively on it so it was worth Google making a version of Chrome for that platform to ensure they get to hoover up all that lovely data. Where as the 3 users of the Windows 10 store are not worth the effort of coding a specific version of Chrome that is just a skin on top of Edge.

  19. Slx

    I don't really understand what Apple's reason for being so restrictive with browsers in iOS is anyway.

    A few more rendering engines would drive some slickness of experience and I doubt they'd undermine Safari either.

  20. Mikel

    Obligatory

    IE sucks. Microsoft Edge sucks. Bing sucks. Windows sucks. Objectively, they all suck. The purpose for IE and Edge in Windows is to preinstall an app that you can use to Google and install a decent browser.

    You should search in Google with Chrome or Firefox, and it turns out you overwhelmingly do - Even though IE and Edge come preinstalled and Bing set as the default.

    You should use Linux or BSD. And more do every day.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Obligatory

      Call us when it can do mainline games like Street Fighter IV or V (and no, the arcade versions don't use Linux, either--IIRC they use the Type X arcade system...which is Windows-based).

      1. conscience

        Re: Obligatory

        "Call us when it can do mainline games like..."

        You mean like Sony's PlayStation 4 uses Orbis OS, a fork a FreeBSD? Besides the kernel, much of the system software is also open source and UNIX-based. Though the console itself is not open source, even the SDK, compilers etc. are open source (LLVM). Much of this is also the case with both MacOS and iOS.

        CellOS, the system software from the Playstation 3, also uses FreeBSD and much open source code.The Playstation Vita and more recent Nintendo Switch also follow this path.

        When Sega tried to use a cut-down, mobile orientated Windows CE as their Dreamcast OS to try and pull in more developers, it broke them as a mass-manufacturer of hardware and nearly killed the company leaving them to transform into a software-only and IP licensing company to try and survive. Other than that, the only games console that doesn't use open-source UNIX-based software appears to be Microsoft's own XBox, which is hardly a great endorsement from the gaming industry.

        1. Charles 9 Silver badge

          Re: Obligatory

          "When Sega tried to use a cut-down, mobile orientated Windows CE as their Dreamcast OS to try and pull in more developers, it broke them as a mass-manufacturer of hardware and nearly killed the company leaving them to transform into a software-only and IP licensing company to try and survive."

          It wasn't the OS that killed the Dreamcast. First, they were previously reeling from the Saturn (which suffered from atypical 3D hardware and a clunky SDK). Second, they used CD-based media which lacks space. Because of the first, and also due to lack of media connections, they couldn't blaze the trail like Sony did and use DVDs. Technically, the Dreamcast actually had a better GPU unit than the PS2 (seen when you compared each platform's DOA2 offering and titles like Skies of Arcadia and Shenmue were really something), but all that space AND the ability to play DVD movies right at the point when they were maturing on the market meant the PS2 featured a killer twofer. Finally, a recession in Japan meant Sega lacked the wiggle room to stay in hardware.

          "Other than that, the only games console that doesn't use open-source UNIX-based software appears to be Microsoft's own XBox, which is hardly a great endorsement from the gaming industry."

          When it comes to consoles, the OS doesn't really matter. Otherwise, the Xbox would've been long gone, but it's still around thanks to its DirectX support. Meanwhile, like I said, the Taito Type X series is still alive and kicking in arcades and full of headliners...and still using Windows as the underlying OS.

          1. conscience

            Re: Obligatory

            Isn't that a little contradictory, stating "Call us when [Linux, BSD/Unix] can do mainline games like Street Fighter IV or V (and no, the arcade versions don't use Linux, either--IIRC they use the Type X arcade system...which is Windows-based)" and then claiming "When it comes to consoles, the OS doesn't really matter"?

            1. Charles 9 Silver badge

              Re: Obligatory

              No, it's not contradictory, because they're two different worlds, especially PC gaming where the professional gaming leagues reside. It's still probably the only one where people regularly plunk down real-life money per month to play. Nothing on the consoles comes close. That's the kind of pull you want to really show you're something, and Linux and Mac gaming can't hold a candle to Windows, and if you want to really pull gamers off Windows, find a way to get those professionals to make the jump.

              1. conscience

                Re: Obligatory

                I don't know why you keep banging on about "professional gamers", but I do think that you're overstating the importance and influence that is associated with it. Professional gaming is a drop in the ocean compared to the non-pro living room amateur gamers who spend considerably more money on a lot more games. I don't think it matters which system pro games use, the pro gaming scene is still a minority thing that has less people with a lot less money spent on it than ordinary arm chair gamers, and the numbers involved in it are tiny. Nor do the masses necessarily follow what the pro gamers use. From what I've read there's barely 150m people who regularly view these events, and a similar number who only occasionally view the tournaments (2017 figures).

                I'd say professional gaming is totally irrelevant with regards to showing "you're something", showing you're something is more about either enjoying/doing well at the game (for gamers - pros and non-pros alike), or selling huge numbers of games (for the companies). As for the ordinary gamers, whatever OS they decide to use, be it *nix based stuff like MacOS, iOS, Android, Linux, Playstation 4, Nintendo etc., or Microsoft's Xbox and Windows, there are more than enough games to keep everyone busy for a very long time.

                It is well known that operating systems other than Windows are more than capable of playing any game on the market, whether or not they are available on that system is another matter entirely but non-Windows OS game availability is improving all the time. While it is true that Windows is still dominant in the gaming space, largely due to inertia of the past, there are still hundreds of pages of non-Windows games available right now on Steam for both Linux and Mac OS. e.g. Mac OS has 281 pages of games (25 per page = over 7000 games), Linux has 186 pages of games (25 per page = 4650 games). Sure Windows has many more, but how many games can a gamer play in one lifetime?

                "Pulling gamers off Windows" isn't really the point. The big game engines have added the ability to export to multiple platforms from Windows, Mac OS, Linux, Android, iOS, Playstation, Xbox, Nintendo Switch, and even web browser, and the number of games available for non-Windows systems is rapidly growing. The truth is that gamers are no longer tied to Windows if they choose not to be, and given that WINE allows me to install the Windows version of Steam alongside the Linux version, therefore allowing me to play all the Windows games that I own right there from my Linux desktop, it's the best of both worlds as far as I am concerned especially as I don't have to put up with Microsoft's shoddy software, shitty attitude, dodgy practices, untrustworthy patches, etc.

                As always, each to their own.

                1. Charles 9 Silver badge

                  Re: Obligatory

                  Then where's WoW? Overwatch? And no, Mac and Linux are not an option since Blizzard still has an anti-WINE stance that can warrant a ban from Battle.net (needed for both)? WoW isn't on any console, and Overwatch separates by platform, and PC is where all the serious gamers are.

                  1. conscience

                    Re: Obligatory

                    That is not true. Blizzard never had an official problem with using WINE, any bans because of WINE use were actually unintentional and the few bans that did happen were reversed by Blizzard who updated their software/policy so that it didn't happen again in the future. IIRC WINE was mistaken for some soft of unauthorised cheat software, which is what Blizzard do have a problem with.

                    No official support doesn't mean a game won't run on other platforms. Personally I have enjoyed playing many unsupported 'windows only' games on Linux without any problems. As far as I know (I don't play either game you mention), it is possible to run both of those games on Linux according to various web sources.

                    Besides which, even if any particular game didn't work, it isn't essential to own or play every single title. Every platform probably has their own exclusive titles, and maybe this matters to 15 year old kids or your beloved pro-gamers if they happen to play one particular title that has problems on other systems, but for the rest of us gamers there's still plenty of choice.

  21. Bibbit

    Instead of all this divisive OS talk...

    Perhaps we could discuss the Sunni / Shia schism?

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microsoft and its delusions of being the 'third app ecosystem'

    Case in point: the Windows 10 taskbar clock. The classic analog clock is replaced with a 'Metro' one, and a former tweak to revert back to the classic analog clock was disabled in the Anniversary Update, much to the chagrin of most users.

    (The Windows 10 calculator is horrible too, but oldcalcwin10 takes care of that.)

    And if you go to the Microsoft help forums to talk about this, those SatNad fanboys would go 'LOL, go download a clock app on the Microsoft Store!'. Never realizing that many users do not have, and do not want a Microsoft account, and also do not want Cortana, Edge, Bing, Onedrive, Groove Music etc.

    We just want a stable (and fairly secure) Windows OS which runs win32 stuff competently, doesn't break legacy stuff, with a coherent and sensible DESKTOP UI for using with a KEYBOARD AND MOUSE.

    There's a good reason why Steve Jobs didn't want to merge OSX and iOS.

    'Metro' should have died with Sinofsky and Julie Larson-Green in Windows 8. Instead, Windows 10 became a doubling down of that madness, combined with the new CEO SatNad's unhealthy obsession with clouds and spying.

    Microsoft is not going to overcome Google and Apple in the mobile app duopoly, forget about it. Microsoft *might* be able to steal some of Amazon's cloud business, but that is of no concern to PC users. Xbox is not going to supplant Steam, Sony and Nintendo in gaming.

  23. sloshnmosh

    Saffari

    I'm just now finding out I've been using a knockoff browser this whole time.

    I was happy with my Saffari browser until this damned article.

    Well, back to the App Store I go...

  24. macaroo

    Giving up on IE

    I have used ms's ie for years. After the latest out of band update it became very slow and unstable running under windows 7. I decided to try Chrome, what a relief and improvement. it is faster and more stable. Enabling the pop up blocker extension has eliminated all the nasty ads and sidebar annoyances from the most popular websites.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Giving up on IE

      You might also want to try Chromium's children. For example: Advanced Chrome and Yandex.

  25. Zakhar

    I bet on Google

    Redmond should realize the O.S. is now a commodity.

    The O.S. should do his job which is handling your hardware and allowing you to run your software, and you should not even care what type of O.S. you run (unless you are a programmer).

    On the other hand, users care about being able to run the software they like.

    There was a similar "battle" in France between Free (a French ISP) and Google, around Youtube. At some point you couldn't watch comfortably any decent Youtube video. There were investments needed (network, cache, etc...).

    Free said that users will change to another platform (Dailymotion?).

    Google said that users will change ISP.

    Fortunately, they end up with a deal: Google did some infrastructure investment for Free, and in exchange Free gave to its clients an Android-TV box (so that Google gets even more data, like what program you look on TV and when!).

    We have the same battle here: Redmond says users will use other services than Google (GMail, Youtube, GMaps, etc...) and Google bet they will rather use another O.S. (Android/Chromebook...) to have the service.

    My bet is that the service will win!

  26. Bob Dole (tm)
    Coffee/keyboard

    Whatever

    At the end of the day all I want is for MickeySoft to fix Outlook so that it can start searching my gmail folders again. After they broke it a few months ago I keep finding myself going straight to gmail to search for old emails. At some point I won't even bother starting Outlook.

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