back to article Munich council finds €49.3m for Windows 10 embrace

The city of Munich will spend €49.3m (£43.9m/ $58.4m) going all-in on Windows after local politicos agreed to call time on the failing 15-year open source project. The city council voted 50 to 25 to migrate all of its remaining Linux computer systems to Windows 10 in 2020 as part of a €89m IT overhaul, Social Democrat …

  1. wolfetone Silver badge

    They'll be back.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      So a bargain compared to the ~ €100 million they spend on migration to and integration with open source...

      And no they won't be back. Close to no one is migrating to Linux on the desktop.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Sad but true, we've considered it many times and there simply isn't the linux clients there for applications we have to use as part of national work. We'd potentially get away with VMs but then we've got licensing costs for that anyway..

        Staff training is less of an issue though so the gap is slowly closing especially as more applications have web front ends.

      2. Teiwaz Silver badge

        Shush, you didn't here it from me....

        And no they won't be back. Close to no one is migrating to Linux on the desktop.

        Except when they have to move to whatever follows on from ChromeOS/android (of course, it probably won't be Linux at the core by then).

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Shush, you didn't here it from me....

          "Except when they have to move to whatever follows on from ChromeOS/android (of course,"

          Why on earth would they move to a cut down OS that has less functionality and worse security even than Linux?!

          1. nijam

            Re: Shush, you didn't here it from me....

            > ...less functionality and worse security even than Linux?

            Hmmm, and what are they doing now? Come on, we're all thinking it...

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Shush, you didn't here it from me....

              "Hmmm, and what are they doing now? "

              Mostly using Linux. So windows 10 will be an improvement.

          2. Teiwaz Silver badge

            Re: Shush, you didn't here it from me....

            "Except when they have to move to whatever follows on from ChromeOS/android (of course,"

            Why on earth would they move to a cut down OS that has less functionality and worse security even than Linux?!

            Why are they moving to a cut-down OS with worse security than Linux now?

            Because, reasons....

            Increased use of cloud (hey, not data on laptops left on buses, just concerns that admins leave barn doors open on the other end), it's trendy and cheap, all the users already use a version on their phones....It's not as if security is a prime concern now*

            It's a future possibility....

            * Reminds me of Mr Don & Mr George,

            'Q: You're not worried about security then?'

            A: 'I'm not worried about security now.'

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Shush, you didn't here it from me....

            "Why on earth would they move to a cut down OS that has less functionality and worse security even than Linux?!"

            You clearly know nothing about ChromeOS. It has obviously superior security to Windows, TPS with dual boots, basically malware immune. Not even close.

          4. JEDIDIAH
            Linux

            Re: Shush, you didn't here it from me....

            > Why on earth would they move to a cut down OS that has less functionality and worse security even than Linux?!

            The same reason anyone ever bothered with WinDOS... "everyone uses it".

          5. leexgx

            Re: Shush, you didn't here it from me....

            chromeOS is more secure then windows and linuxPC (if something managed to break into it you can just reset the thing and log back in no fuss)

            only issue with them is they need internet all the time or they are mostly useless (never found the offline support to ever work even thought the extensions say it should work offline) want to get my chromebook back to see if this seamless connection thing works with my chromebook and pixel phone

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Shush, you didn't here it from me....

          Agree. This seems like a bad move in 2017. If Linux worked in 2007, it has only gotten much easier today. It seems like they could have split the difference. Instead of moving off on Linux and back to 1995, use ChromeOS and Mac with G Suite... or Dropbox, Zoom. Don't modernize to the past.

      3. devilz

        100 MIO.?

        The cost of the LiMux rollout was 11 Mio, not 100. And contrary to what the article states, LiMux was not failing either. The problems Munich has are homemade and have nothing to do with Linux. And Windows will not fix them of course. The decision to move away from Linux was not a factual but a political one.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 100 MIO.?

          "The cost of the LiMux rollout was 11 Mio,

          According to Munich Council IT dept. the desktop migration alone cost €17 million and they have spent a further €82 million on trying get their stack to work with Linux. And that doesn't include the costs of running a zoo, lost productivity, etc.

          "And Windows will not fix them of course"

          But it will. They already know that Windows works. And it would only have cost €10 million to stick with Microsoft in the first place.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: 100 MIO.?

            "But it will. They already know that Windows works."

            False. They don't know anything about Windows 10 and none of the software written for 7 will work on it without porting.

            "And it would only have cost €10 million to stick with Microsoft in the first place."

            Yea, right. You forgot the 100 in the front. The MS licences alone will be more than 10M, per year. Without any migration.

            "According to Munich Council IT dept. the desktop migration alone cost €17 million"

            Based on what? "x hours per person * amount of persons * estimated cost per hour" -mathematics again?

        2. azaks

          Re: 100 MIO.?

          >> The decision to move away from Linux was not a factual but a political one.

          The decision to move to Linux was the political decision - saying "fuck you" to a large US corporation and being in control of their destiny. A noble goal, but a massive risk given that no other complex IT org has managed to pull this off. They gambled with tax payers money, and it didn't pay off. Now its time to cut losses and get back to business

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: 100 MIO.?

            "other complex IT org has managed to pull this off. "

            Because the MS-droids in management hasn't allowed competent ones even try,

            My company had about 50 people and only 2 were using windows as their primary platform, no problems with licences or not getting the work done.

            Sometimes the support guys (me) had to search for suitable software but usually something adequate was found. But MS licences alone would have cost more than couple of support guys, so overall saving.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 100 MIO.?

          "The decision to move away from Linux was not a factual but a political one."

          Not even that ... some puppet got paid with "campaign money" to do it. No real reason at all.

        4. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: 100 MIO.?

          "The decision to move away from Linux was not a factual but a political one."

          Hence the fact that the COUNCIL voted to make this change, rather than the city MANAGEMENT - who are the ones competent to make the decisions.

          If you go back and read up on this you'll find that MS (with EU headquarters in Munich) have been putting a good deal of political pressure into ousting Linux for several years and have cut a fairly spectacular sweetheart deal to ensure it happens.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "Close to no one is migrating to Linux on the desktop."

        Maybe not Linux, but there are plenty of companies who do not use Windows. It seems eminently possible to use Linux... just ensure that all of your apps are web apps, which they should be anyway. It is really more embarrassing that everyone doesn't use all web based apps in 2017 than it is impossible to use Linux.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "but there are plenty of companies who do not use Windows."

          For very small values of "plenty".

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "Maybe not Linux, but there are plenty of companies who do not use Windows. It seems eminently possible to use Linux... just ensure that all of your apps are web apps, which they should be anyway."

          Why an earth would you that? When (and not if) the network is down you can't do anything.

          Basically central computer and stupid terminals, revision 2.

          For some cases it is a good idea but for some other cases it isn't.

        3. JEDIDIAH
          Linux

          That other OS

          The elephant in the room here of course is Apple. If they can't migrate off of Windows because they have a crazy number of Windows only applications, then that equally prevents them from running MacOS. Not only that but it sounds like this would be true for the entire country of Germany and not just Munich.

          Sounds like an awful lot of power to hand over to a foreign company.

      5. Zakhar

        But then how do you explain that in France the Gendarmerie has been using desktop Linux for decades, is happy with that, and will certainly not change back to a proprietary O.S.

        My guess: politics.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "But then how do you explain that in France the Gendarmerie has been using desktop Linux for decades"

          Because all they use it for is as a web browsing kiosk.

        2. Alan Brown Silver badge

          "My guess: politics."

          And publicity. The Gendermarie didn't bowl into using desktop linux amongst a blaze of publicity, in the city where MS has its european headquarters.

    2. Schultz
      Boffin

      "They'll be back."

      Nah, a number of careers will depend on 'making this work', so it will work. On paper at least. They'll probably allow some special cases to stay with Linux, just like they retained Windows over all those years.

      As far as I know my German politics, this is an issue of people yelling we need to update our IT infrastructure / hardware /... and the people in charge deciding that this is the perfect moment to get a bottom-up review. Deciding on a fundamental change then suddenly unlocks all that money that, otherwise, would not have been available. Everybody wins (a new computer).

      1. Naselus

        Re: "They'll be back."

        "They'll probably allow some special cases to stay with Linux, just like they retained Windows over all those years."

        No, the reason they had 'special cases' on Windows (which actually continued to be about 20% of their whole estate) was because the software they required simply does not exist on Linux. They had no choice but to stick with Windows for about 6 thousand machines, and so adopting Linux for the rest of the estate ended up just forcing them to have 2 different sets of support staff - including the far, far pricier Linux ones.

        That's the inconvenient truth that always seems to elude those predicting the imminent arrival of the YOLOTD; the ecosystem is just not there for enterprise desktop use. In an endless number of cases, the industry standard software doesn't exist for Linux and the Open Source alternatives offered are either incompatible with the proprietary formats being used by the rest of the industry, or else not remotely competitive. Inkscape can't hold a candle to Photoshop. Blender is nothing to 3DSMax. Even the relatively complete LibreOffice isn't really a full replacement for MS Office, even if just because of 30 years of VBS macros that suddenly become incompatible.

        In the end, Munich isn't changing back because Linux sucks, but because software availability for Linux does. There's no user demand for Linux because there's no programs for it, and there's no programs for it because there's no user demand for Linux. It's the same situation that has killed Windows Phone.

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Big Brother

          Re: "They'll be back."

          "the software they required simply does not exist on Linux"

          Herein lies the CENTER ISSUE.

          Question: "What software"

          1. can the "windows only" applications be re-written for *LESS* *MONEY* than completely revamping everyone with Win-10-nic boxen?

          2. just how CRITICAL is "that particular application" anyway? In other words, can the same job be done with SOMETHING ELSE?

          The silence on these two details probably answers my questions...

          It's a fair bet that some enterprising IT guy could sit down and write a cloudy data entry or data analysis application that runs in a web browser to do whatever "that thing" does, and NOT require "Win-10-nic for everybody", for less money, in *LESS* *TIME*, and then THEY would "own it" and could even sell it to other agencies...

          But then, the sexual favors and behind-the-back payola "won't happen" so they'll never do THAT, right?

          1. anothercynic Silver badge
            Mushroom

            Re: "They'll be back."

            Pardon me while I pee my pants laughing...

            1. can the "windows only" applications be re-written for *LESS* *MONEY* than completely revamping everyone with Win-10-nic boxen?

            How long have you got, and how long would you like Munich to stand still while you do this? And will you give the kind of support Microsoft/Adobe does when it really does go wrong, or will you give the classic Open Source answer to a request for support: "Submit a patch" or "you can compile it yourself"?

            2. just how CRITICAL is "that particular application" anyway? In other words, can the same job be done with SOMETHING ELSE?

            Critical enough *not* to wait around for 1. or have to risk getting a Bavarian (nevermind just German) user who just wants/needs to do their job having to deal with abrasive Open Source 'support' flows.

            Downvote me all you like, but given that I have worked in corporate technical support for both the private and public sector, and I've had plenty of exposure to what the Open Source community thinks is good support in some cases (hint: it is distinctly lacking in support), yeah, be my guest.

            Here's an addendum though: Not *all* Open Source software is like that, or has a community like that, or treats its users like that, but this is why Red Hat and others make a killing on support contracts... :-)

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "They'll be back."

              "And will you give the kind of support Microsoft/Adobe does when it really does go wrong, "

              None. Nothing whatsoever.

              At least you can hire a consult to fix your problem by yourself with open source and that will happen in days, not weeks.

              "and I've had plenty of exposure to what the Open Source community thinks is good support in some cases (hint: it is distinctly lacking in support), yeah, be my guest."

              Hint: Pay for support and you'll get 24/7 online support. And if that's not enough, contact developers directly and offer money to them, directly.

              You will get any fixable bug fixed immediately. Too hard, eh? Or doesn't fit into 'that's how we operate here' -policy?

              MS/Adobe/Oracle ponders about your whining few weeks "to confirm it" and then decide it's not worth fixing until next version or at all. While you pay for support contract, of course.

          2. ThatOne Silver badge
            Meh

            Re: "They'll be back."

            > It's a fair bet that some enterprising IT guy could sit down and write a cloudy data entry or data analysis application that runs in a web browser

            Well, good luck to create an AutoCAD clone "that runs in a web browser" and is compatible with the real thing, works as fast as the real thing, and all people trained to the real thing can seamlessly switch to without productivity loss...

            "Some enterprising guy" might con people to pay him for some quick & dirty browser app allowing to stage a halfway convincing demo, but it will never be suited for real work. Even if done seriously, it takes years and versions to make a stable and reliable full-fat professional program, and no commercial entity can afford to play guinea pig.

            Disclaimer: This was typed on a Linux box. I like Linux, but the bitter truth is that you just can't find the serious professional programs you're bound to use in most professions. It's true there are sometimes equivalents, usually with lesser functionality, and, the goal of a company being productivity, they don't cut it.

            I'd love to switch 100% to Linux, especially since I won't touch Win10 with a 10 foot pole, but there is no chance of this happening.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "They'll be back."

              "Well, good luck to create an AutoCAD clone"

              People always bring up AutoCAD. What percentage of end users use AutoCAD? .01%? There should be really powerful desktops for a select set of apps. IDEs are another example. For the 90% though, ChromeOS and web based apps not only work... they work better than having a bunch of thick clients that need to be updated.

              1. ckm5

                Re: "They'll be back."

                People always bring up AutoCAD. What percentage of end users use AutoCAD?

                A major function of local governments is building permits - almost all of these are based on digital plans these days. It's also possibly the dept that brings in the most revenue in the entire gov't and one where compatibility with the outside world is extremely important.

                So, probably quite a few end-users use AutoCAD or AutoCAD compatible systems, most of which only run on Windows. Let's not even discuss GIS....

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: "They'll be back."

                  "A major function of local governments is building permits - almost all of these are based on digital plans these days"

                  Yes, and none of them use AutoCad but proper, much bigger, mapping software for it, not some mapping add-on on AutoCad.

                  So not even relevant here.

                2. JEDIDIAH
                  Devil

                  Re: "They'll be back."

                  So you're saying that every piddly little contractor and tradesman and individual that wants to make major renovations or build something needs AutoCAD. That sounds derangely beaurocratic even for Germany.

              2. Kiwi Silver badge
                Trollface

                Re: "They'll be back."

                People always bring up AutoCAD.

                Didn't you know that not only Western Commerce, but the entire existence of the FREE WORLDTM is at stake unless each and every person in the office down to the youngest grandkid of the tea lady has a full fat version of ALL Adobe product, full Office, full AutoCad, every high-end game known to man (except the ones that don't do Windows).

                That's why these people get so excited. Our very existence depends on these people having these things to do their jobs!

            2. kschrock

              Re: "They'll be back."

              Some horse manure arguments here.

              I also write from a Linux machine. I haven't booted back to Windows in two years now, but I occasionally uses a Virtual box to run some nice small, simple, handy win apps, like Easy GPS or SeaClear II.

              All such apps are things that were written by 1 person in a very short time (many of them me, Visual Studio, and apps created with it, work great on Virtual box). They would be a piece of cake.

              At the other end of the spectrum...

              Civil servants in Munich use Autocad and Photoshop? Really? In 27 years of civil service, I have never seen either used in governmental service. Munich has architects, engineers, and graphics artists?

              1. Lomax
                Thumb Up

                Re: "They'll be back."

                > handy win apps, like Easy GPS or SeaClear II

                https://opencpn.org/OpenCPN/info/about.html

              2. HaileyFox

                Re: "They'll be back."

                Last time I tried it SeaClear II ran really well under Wine back in like 2010-ish I think

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "They'll be back."

              "Well, good luck to create an AutoCAD clone "that runs in a web browser"

              Running in web browser might be hard but it's not the only major CAD software in the market and the other ones run also on bigger computers than just a PC.

              Also, it's more or less outdated as 3d modeling is the way to do things now and Autocad is quite bad at it. Just like others having 2d history.

              1. Alan Brown Silver badge

                Re: "They'll be back."

                Why on earth would anyone use crap like Autocad when there are much better packages available that run on multiple platforms (admittedly, they can cost, but they also do everything that Autocad doesn't including integrate into GIS systems)

                EG: Siemens PLM

                1. Pompous Git Silver badge

                  Re: "They'll be back."

                  "Why on earth would anyone use crap like Autocad when there are much better packages available that run on multiple platforms "
                  A friend of mine designs houses and when I asked him this very question he said because in return for a very small purported improvement in the software, there's a very large real cost.

                  1. Retraining everyone except the receptionist.

                  2. A loss of productivity for several months while everyone attempts to get back up to speed.

                  3. Cost of purchasing new licences. The ones in current use are already bought and paid for some years ago.

                  Note that the clients don't give a flying fuck what software/hardware you use. They just want their building designed and the appropriate drawings/documentation produced. My friend says that colleagues in the industry who've switched have done so for entirely ideological reasons and that economically it makes little to no sense.

                  What might make such a hare-brained scheme work would be if new graduates were skilled in some product other than AutoCAD, but they aren't. They were taught AutoCAD.

          3. azaks

            Re: "They'll be back."

            I'll help out with your questions Bob.

            1. can the "windows only" applications be re-written for *LESS* *MONEY* than completely revamping everyone with Win-10-nic boxen?

            Your suggesting that they ask all of their vendors to learn how to port their app to Linux, implement it, and then pay for ongoing custom support arrangements as the sole customer? And then repeat this for all vendors? The polite answer is "no", the probable one is to laugh you out of the room.

            2. just how CRITICAL is "that particular application" anyway? In other words, can the same job be done with SOMETHING ELSE?

            Maybe the should just change the business of government to suit the software they have?

            Your questions suggest the usual fantastical thinking by many in OSS where the software is the end rather than the means to it.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "They'll be back."

              "Your suggesting that they ask all of their vendors to learn how to port their app to Linux, implement it, and then pay for ongoing custom support arrangements as the sole customer? "

              When you are using custom software you hire people who already know their job, not someone who needs to learn everything at your expense.

              Even suggesting you do something like that would cause one being laughed out from meeting. But somehow you just did that to prove that Windows is always better.

              Right.

        2. John Crisp

          Re: "They'll be back."

          "Inkscape can't hold a candle to Photoshop."

          It never will be able too....

          Inkscape is a vector editor. Photoshop is a bitmap editor.

          They are not the same thing.

          I presume you are getting confused with either The Gimp (bitmaps) and/or Illustator (vectors)

          In my experience using all four for clients logos I had few issues moving off Adobe.

          Yes Illustrator and Photoshop have lots more tricks. But, like word processors and spreadsheets, average users probably only use a few percent of the capability. An awful lot of expensive code doing nothing most of the time.

          The single biggest issue was dealing with the everchanging file formats in Illustrator (yes a designer could send say a eps or pdf but those aren't defaults and they just use whatever came first assuming the rest of the planet does likewise....)

          Same issues with say Word docs.

          So it's not about the applications per se, but the data portability.

          Whilst software companies continue to impose their own document 'standards' and encourage users to use them it is hard to build a succesful competitor.

          1. Morten Bjoernsvik

            Re: "They'll be back."

            Why not run a citrix metaframe (XenApp) for all those windows only app. it will give you extended sercurity, better administration, license management etc. I've tested PS on an hopeless old eecpc (2010 something) although in 1000x800 2GB running ubuntu 12.04 with xendesktop to xenappserver with nvidia grid. It runs like hell. small resolution but very fast, runs circles around any framebuffer cpu emulated model. All rendering and program is running on the server, the client only displays the framebuffer like it was video. The server had an expensive nvidia Tesla card (K80 =~ $3100 for 24GB), it can easily handle 10-20 PS power users. I also so a demostration on a dualscreen 4K zoomin in and out of a 12GB image, but that was probably a pretty decent client.

            In a large organization having power apps organized like this, will save both money and administration.

            1. Alan Brown Silver badge

              Re: "They'll be back."

              "Why not run a citrix metaframe (XenApp) for all those windows only app. "

              This is pretty much what was being done anyway. The linux desktops were thin clients with the actual legwork being done in a central server.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "They'll be back."

              "Why not run a citrix metaframe (XenApp) for all those windows only app.

              Sure you can - but the best thin client devices for that all run Windows Embedded. Go take a look at the Wyse product range. Only the really low end ones run Linux. If you want the fully functional versions or high end graphics then they will be running Windows!

          2. Naselus

            Re: "They'll be back."

            @John Crisp;

            Yeah, see, that's the answer Open Source people always give. And it's not good enough.

            See, 'average users probably only use a few percent of the capability' is probably true, but we're not talking about average users. By definition, if we're talking about application usage in a professional environment, we're talking about high-end professionals. Your mum may not be able to tell the difference between Inkscape and Illustrator, but an architect being paid £45 an hour can. That's why we pay him £45 an hour, because he knows how all those extra functions work and he's been using the commercial version for the last 15 years.

            And this is ALWAYS the answer OS types come out with 'it's almost as good, and it's free!'. Doesn't matter. There were plenty of commercial competitors who were 'almost as good' over the last thirty years. They're all gone now too. What's good enough for amateurs is not good enough for professionals, who will expect the best quality tools capable of doing the highest-end stuff.

            So no, it's not 'just' a data portability matter (which is another convenient excuse for the OS community to use, since it means it's not their fault for making second-rate software, but the competitor's fault for using proprietary file formats). It's a program quality matter, and OS is simply not able to compete for the most part, even before we look at things like support.

            1. Kiwi Silver badge

              Re: "They'll be back."

              See, 'average users probably only use a few percent of the capability' is probably true, but we're not talking about average users. By definition, if we're talking about application usage in a professional environment, we're talking about high-end professionals. Your mum may not be able to tell the difference between Inkscape and Illustrator, but an architect being paid £45 an hour can. That's why we pay him £45 an hour, because he knows how all those extra functions work and he's been using the commercial version for the last 15 years.

              That might explain a few things. About a year ago we had a strong earthquake around these parts. Many modern "up to code" and in some cases less than 10 years old buildings did not survive the quake. Stuff built more than 30 years ago came through fine (at least as far as I know) including the house I'm in now.

              Perhaps the reason why all these buildings fell down was the architects were using illustrator or inkscape, instead of using the appropriate tools for the job?

              However, that's beside the point. People who advocate the use of OS stuff tend to advocate that if it you have functions in a certain program you need, then you use a program that provides those functions. The current Photoshop may have them while Gimp may never do.

              I do know of a few "high end professionals" who get a fair bit more than your meagre £45 who do use products like Gimp - because they have a level of reliability that the Adobe stuff now lacks (ie they can go on the road for a few weeks and know that their stuff will still work without a net connection, for a start).

              That aside, the argument you're arguing against is generally talking about those at the home or general office level of use. Most workers won't touch on half the stuff Wordpad provides, let alone Office etc. Most are doing basic stuff that requires few of the features of word processing software, and many would be better suited by more basic stuff. Even El Reg had a few articles on how Charlie Stross, Alastair Reynolds (brit Sci Fi writers IIRC) and someone else were ditching MS Word (and in one of the articles how the author only used a basic text editor) because it made their lives much easier and made the job of writing novels much simpler and faster.

              So the argument still has merit, people who only need basic tools only need basic tools. The far fewer people who need high-end tools get high-end tools.

              Does your secretary/PA need a full copy of Adobe's stuff? Unlikely, but even if your's does most don't.

              Care to try your argument again without claiming bread-and-butter knives need to be manufactured from "surgical steel", with a blade honed down to a sharpness that can reliably cut through skin, flesh, muscle etc, and must be sterilised before use because that's what surgeon's need in their "knives"? (That is the same level of argument you just used). General users are, in many definitions, using the software in a professional environment after all. Try arguing from the position of the software of what one of the MS shills used to refer to as "Olaf Officedrohne"1 and the software they use, rather than resorting to "everyone must use this because a few high-end users do".

              1 Oh I do sometimes miss Eadon! :) (only sometimes, when the other fella isn't on form...:) )

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "They'll be back."

          "That's the inconvenient truth that always seems to elude those predicting the imminent arrival of the YOLOTD; the ecosystem is just not there for enterprise desktop use"

          That's bullshit. Unless you start from defining "enterprise desktop" as Office 2016.

          "... software availability for Linux does."

          ... and the examples are far from custom applications city is mostly using, so not even relevant.

          "Office has more features" is kind of moot when no-one is ever using all of the features it has. Or even needs them.

          1. Alan Brown Silver badge

            Re: "They'll be back."

            > "Office has more features" is kind of moot when no-one is ever using all of the features it has. Or even needs them.

            Actually, "XYZ has more features" is the exact mantra used by MS competitors when they first brought out Office - as a limited, _cheap_ package which was _good enough_ for the job.

            That's why Libreoffice and friends scare the crap out of MS. It's "good enough" to handle what 90% of users want (that's "90% of users", not "90% of the functionality") - and as such it's a major threat to their business - the Office environment is their main cash cow.

            1. Pompous Git Silver badge

              Re: "They'll be back."

              "That's why Libreoffice and friends scare the crap out of MS."
              If that were true, MS would be improving their product. They aren't; they're doing the very opposite.

        4. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: "They'll be back."

          "forcing them to have 2 different sets of support staff - including the far, far pricier Linux ones."

          Funny. Our desktop linux support load is trivial compared to the handholding windows users need - and windows only accounts for 20% of the estate.

          When we moved from linux based email to Outlook (orders from on high and a few handshakes on golf courses), the support load for mail increased so much that several extra staff are now needed - and of course when things break they get fixed at MS speed, not by an admin who can kick the system quickly - the only problem with the old system was that manglement had refused to allow it to be upgraded, so 8 year old hardware was straining under the load thrown at it.

    3. boltar Silver badge

      "They'll be back."

      Perhaps, but even if they do it won't be for a very long time.

      The problem isn't with Linux as an OS, its an extremely competent, reliable and secure OS as evidenced by it running probably the majority of backend systems and web servers on the internet these days. The problem is the desktop applications, or lack thereof. What linux equivalents do exist are usually good, but there is a HUGE number of specific task applications that are Windows (and occasionally Mac) only and if they need any of these then using Linux will probably be hard.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "The problem is the desktop applications, or lack thereof."

        I'm sure that is what they think the problem is... but really most everything is available via a browser these days. Yes, not IDEs, CAD, etc. There are exceptions... but they are exceptions. The vast majority of users can get everything they need via a browser.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Keep politicians away from IT decisions

    Having worked in Local Government all my life I reckon this tells you much more about Munich politics than the relative merits of open- versus closed-source operating systems, and their available software packages.

    And before anyone else says it, I claim the No Shit Sherlock award of the day

    1. Korev Silver badge
      Holmes

      Re: Keep politicians away from IT decisions

      Here you go Good Sir —>

      1. Aqua Marina Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Keep politicians away from IT decisions

        If only someone would work on a version of Linux that could run Windows programs natively. They could even put the 2 words together and call it something like Lindows!

        1. Roger Greenwood

          Re: Keep politicians away from IT decisions

          I feel Linspired

        2. Paul Herber

          Re: Keep politicians away from IT decisions

          My village shop uses Local Libre Office for Local Lindows.

          1. J. R. Hartley Silver badge

            Re: Keep politicians away from IT decisions

            What's all this shouting? We'll have no trouble here!

        3. the Jim bloke Bronze badge

          Re: Keep politicians away from IT decisions

          Linus would probably get upset (I know it doesnt sound like him..) to be associated with that, so possibly safer to call the mongrel creation Windix or windux.

        4. wayward4now
          Linux

          Re: Keep politicians away from IT decisions

          Back in the Good Ole Days of Caldera, they had a program named Wabi that allowed you to install Win3.1 on top of Linux. Click on the Windows flag icon on your desktop and Win3.1 loaded complete to the Win sound effect! I was told by one of my Caldera buddies that they had a version of Wabi that installed and booted Win95. Wabi got bought up and disappeared overnight. It was SO slick! It's a wonder someone hasn't come up with a copy of the Wabi scheme. They could make a killing.

    2. Daniel von Asmuth Bronze badge
      Megaphone

      Re: Keep politicians away from IT decisions

      Keep policitians away from political, economic, financial, and religious decisions!

  3. hplasm Silver badge
    Meh

    €49.3m for Windows 10

    €493m for Windows 10 User retraining.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

      Hübner said the Windows move would take about half a decade and would not require staff retraining.

      He's obviously never used Windows 10.

      1. serendipity

        Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

        Oh come off it. Anybody with any experience of previous versions of Windows (or a recent Linux distro even!) can use Windows 10, it ain't exactly difficult to adapt to! If Munich had decided they were moving over to Apple Macs, you would probably all have said diddly sh*t about it - coz Apple is cool innit!

        Sorry, I know that it won't sit well with some people but the reality is that MS have done a good job with Win 10 and it's relatively easy and pleasant to use. I also use Linux as well, before you start!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

          Windows 10 pleasant to use ? You are having a laugh. Is it the woeful flat look, the bsods, the update failures, the spying, oh yeah I really love my windows 10 machine....NOT. Yes I'm using it for stuff that won't work on linux - but not out of choice.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

          "...done a good job with Win 10 and it's relatively easy and pleasant to use."

          That's not the problem by itself. The problem is that it differs from windows 7 more than most Linux desktops.

          And that's the problem : They are again fu**ing their existing customers. New ones don't care as they've never seen the old versions.

          Also the pervasive spying in Windows 10 will be a serious problem under GDPR: Thoroughly illegal, all of it.

          And when the courts can't get to Microsoft, they'll punish the city.

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

            That's not the problem by itself. The problem is that it differs from windows 7 more than most Linux desktops.

            That's not a problem either because for the vast majority of users, the OS will just be a means of launching an application and all the productivity is in the application, not the OS.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

        "Hübner said the Windows move would take about half a decade and would not require staff retraining.

        He's obviously never used Windows 10."

        Of course and not only that, he's paid to say so. "Campaign money" as they call bribery now.

    2. Khaptain Silver badge

      Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

      49M for 35000 users means a very expensive version of Windows 10... 1400 Euros per head...

      Just what does this 1400 cover exactly.. Ok there will be servers and licences etc but that seems damned expensive especially when we consider that this will be a EASL/Open licence....

      1. lglethal Silver badge
        Go

        Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

        You perhaps missed the part in the article that said only €9 Million was for licencing? And that included Windows and Office licencing? €9 million divided by 35k users is about €260 per head. A quick check on mindfactory.de Shows Win 10 Pro is about €120 per licence, and Office 365 Pro is about €160. So about €280 per head. OK i would have hoped for München tax Payers sake that they would have got a better deal then that, but it's not that far off and hopefully there are things like Server included within the €9 Million.

        You can argue about whether it's a good idea or not to go back, but they (the council) say that using Linux has caused problems because of interoperability and the lack of programs they need being available in Linux. if that's true, it only makes sense for them to go back to Windows. Whether it's true or just political bollocks is another matter entirely, but since I dont know anyone at München council (and i doubt anyone on the El reg Forums does either), I doubt we will ever find out just how bad (or not) the problem was...

        1. oiseau Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

          Hello:

          Hmmm ...

          "Whether it's true or just political bollocks is another matter entirely, but since I dont know anyone ..."

          Do you really *have* to know anyone at the München council to at least have a very strong suspicion that this is just a lot of pork* and not Linux related?

          * Pork

          Cheers,

        2. Vince

          Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

          The issue with your calculations is that you’re looking at “retail” pricing, they’ll end up with volume licensing which is more expensive, and comes with different license terms which will be better for them.

          They’re probably having Software Assurance too, which adds among other things Software updates (new versions), particularly useful for Office less so than Windows these days (Windows is now even more complex when it comes to updates than it once was on enterprise and volume license).

          Those costs don’t thus look utterly ridiculous to me, and I suspect despite all the moaning that the simple benefit of being able to use off the shelf software will help too. Whilst I’m no longer a Microsoft supporter, there is something to be said for having something you can just expect software to exist for and work with, and frankly the Issue with Linux on the desktop remains as it was before.

          You can tell us there’s wine and a package for everything but it’s both not always the answer, is a pain in the backside with more complex proprietary software and quickly outweighs the savings from the desktop OS cost.

          And before the running Linux at home lot wake up, there is a huge difference in what a large scale company or organisation needs and uses to your home setup. Councils need to massive ranges of functions ... anything from bin collection to running properties, street cleaning to heating pools in leisure centres and thus the software they need is considerably vast. Factor in too they are often the (unwilling) recipients of other people’s systems - for example in a building they might take on there could well be some existing building management system, it’ll be proprietary and they’re not going to rip that out and replace it just to use Linux when you can spend throwaway money on a Windows box.

          There’s absolutely a place for Linux and the landscape shows it’s widely used in server farms, appliances, mobile etc etc and a fine job it does too, but honestly as a desktop it’s miles off being doable for everyone, and whilst I would love there to be a better choice and more competition in a meaningful way there isn’t and I suspect there won’t be anytime soon.

          And finally.., in the previous post about this someone was banging on about how all these apps should be web based, please, use common sense. Not everything is suitable for a browser environment and there will be huge numbers of existing systems that would be very costly to replace - again it’s trivial to support as is but very costly to change.

          Given Munich run a large Windows estate anyhow they’re supporting 2 different and often incompatible systems, it must be a real pain in the ass right now, so moving to “all windows” is the path of least resistance.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

            From the article:

            "The majority of the €49.3m will go toward technical infrastructure, with €9m towards licensing over six years. The cost includes 6,000 Office licences."

            "The councillor said 10,700 out of the city's 30,000 users currently have Windows XP or Windows 7. The €49.3m estimate includes Windows 10 for the 30,000 plus an extra 5,000 of additional staff, Hübner said."

            So costs are roughly 6000 x Office and 20,000 x Win10 for 6 years is €9m - I'd would guess at €45/user/year for Windows and €100/user/year for Office.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

            "volume licensing which is more expensive"?!?

            Our organisation's volume licensing is substantially CHEAPER than retail!

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

              "Our organisation's volume licensing is substantially CHEAPER than retail!"

              Yes, for the base Windows OS license. That's where the fun begins. Then add SCCM, SCOM, AD, Endpoint Manager, Windows Server, etc. It ends up begin incredibly expensive.

              1. werdsmith Silver badge

                Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

                Then add SCCM, SCOM, AD, Endpoint Manager, Windows Server, etc. It ends up begin incredibly expensive.

                So what are you saying exactly? Are SCCM, SCOM, AD, Endpoint Manager, Windows Server etc cheaper when purchased retail?

                Most of those things, plus Group Policy on AD are of benefit to an enterprise IT department and are designed save a lot of legwork and sysadmin time and therefore salary cost.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

                  "are designed save a lot of legwork and sysadmin time and therefore salary cost."

                  Are designed to bring money for Microsoft: Don't ever try to claim anything else.

                  Some of the tools actually save work (basically caused by non-existent or very poor tools included into purchasing price) but the licences are very expensive so the cost saving at company level is totally illusory, a result of creative accounting.

                  But works for a department level: Sysadmin salaries are at department level cost while corporate licence is at HQ level, basically zero for departments.

                  Of course MS knows this and uses it as marketing argument: "use this,it saves your money but costs more to the HQ, why would you care about that".

                  1. werdsmith Silver badge

                    Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

                    Are designed to bring money for Microsoft: Don't ever try to claim anything else.

                    Are you trying to win a stating the obvious competition? That statement applies to virtually every commercial product. However, the ones in question are designed to give value in exchange and they actually do. It might hurt some people to hear that, but they really do.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

                "That's where the fun begins. Then add SCCM, SCOM, AD, Endpoint Manager, Windows Server, etc. It ends up begin incredibly expensive."

                All of those are also way cheaper via volume licensing than at retail pricing. It cost almost twice the cost of the licensing being quoted here just for the actual migration project to Linux on the desktop!

              3. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

                "Then add SCCM, SCOM, AD, Endpoint Manager, Windows Server,"

                SCCM and AD are free to use on desktops other than the standard Windows Server CAL and Munich almost certainly already uses those, SCOM is not necessary, "Endpoint manager" is not a Microsoft product and Windows Server is not a dependency of using Windows desktops.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

            "they’ll end up with volume licensing which is more expensive"

            No, volume licensing is way cheaper than retail.

          4. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

            "Councils need to massive ranges of functions ... anything from bin collection to running properties, street cleaning to heating pools in leisure centres and thus the software they need is considerably vast."

            Yes and now you talking against yourself: None of that is done by off the shelf-software.

            Custom software doesn't care about the platform much, it just runs on something: Every software project I've been involved have decided the platform after most of the design was already done and more than half of the overall work.

            Depends more of the coders and the tools they can use than anything else, really.

            1. JEDIDIAH
              Linux

              Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

              Pretty much all of that bespoke vertical stuff should be going into the cloud just like everything else. It doesn't matter if it's in house stuff written by Munich itself or something they sourced from someone else. The vast bulk of their stuff should run inside of a generic web browser at this point.

              Look at the calendar.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

          Just what does this 1400 cover exactly..

          Likely hardware. One of the advantages stated of switching to LiMux was that it had lower system requirements, so they could extend the useful life of their existing computers, and get more life out of any new purchases.

          I doubt we will ever find out just how bad (or not) the problem was...

          Wasn't the report which prompted this pretty clear that the problems were mostly ones of management and organisation?

          Not to worry, I'm sure switching to Windows 10 will solve that.

        4. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Stop

          Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

          "it only makes sense for them to go back to Windows"

          NO. I see contracting opportunities for German software developers as a MUCH better opportunity. How about "re-write us something equivalent for Linux and get it done in 2 years" as a goal, then pay THEM the money (most likely LESS of it), and then SELL IT and help German software makers do worldwide business!!!

          But they're not gonna do that. They're gonna feed the "windows pig" instead. It makes me wonder who gave whom sexual favors and payola to make this happen.

          1. DanceMan

            Re: payola to make this happen

            Moving the MS headquarters to Munich.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: payola to make this happen

              "Moving the MS headquarters to Munich."

              But they already have. Before this was even planned.

        5. Boris Dyne

          Flying the international flag for El Reg because we are legion...

          My cousin-in law is head of a particular state department based in Munich (capital of the state no less!) and from previous conversations with him, I am sure he deals with das Rathaus on a fairly regular basis. I shall ask him anon. However I tend to agree that it would be the failure of interoperability with other states and the federal government. From as cultural perspective, in Germany 15 years seems a reasonable wait to properly identify who is the responsible person for 'fixing things'. Politics too, but that would be a very long answer und Ich habe keinen Bock!

        6. Mozzie

          Re: and i doubt anyone on the El reg Forums does either

          Your doubt is incorrect.

          I'm pretty sure most of us have a similar opinion as to how this reverse migration has come about but unfortunately there were quite a few genuine issues that may have given the recent decision the back up and support of a number of users. I'll just add I've been primarily a Linux user for almost 20 years so no bias or trolling intended:

          Firstly, the Limux desktop environment feels dated and depressing. Many of the comments here have emphasized Linux' problem of software availability, some about quality, but look and feel plays a big part in a users 'usability'. Dated interface, dated applications, dated functionality. Many users of Limux have got Linux distros installed at home, but all up-to-date, modern desktop interfaces and applications. People have a whole list of complaints about Windows 7/10 but one thing I hear fairly often is that the desktop still provides a 'professional warmth' that just feels right.

          Another issue is functionality. Limux has not just been installed on council desktops but attempted on laptops too. Munich civil servants occasionally have to make presentations or show training videos for example, or demonstrate something over the internet. Simple things like switching to an external monitor, data projector, dual monitors really did just work on Windows but turns into a huge headache on some Linux machines. USB data transfers suddenly crawling down to 970Kb/s are a pain when you need to get away from your desk quickly.

          Then there is software availability and quality. Little things like poor font quality on PDF's, logistics client software that won't run, quality issues with video playback, lack of decent presentation software (with smooth animations/video), no reliable fully integrating email client, outdated office software, convenience utilities (right-click USB format)......

          Otherwise, Calculate Linux has shown that Linux can integrate seamlessly with Windows networks and servers whilst easily maintained. Combine that with a stable desktop distro like Mint Mate and it really wouldn't be much effort to migrate again from what they have now to a much more modern Linux ecosystem, and keep their Windows pool flowing.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: and i doubt anyone on the El reg Forums does either

            "quite a few genuine issues "

            Unfortunately your list doesn't have any. I can buy the explanation about management issues.

            "Firstly, the Limux desktop environment feels dated and depressing. "

            _Feels dated_? That's the reason for ditching whole platform? Tell that to my shovel, it looks like it from 1800s.

            "still provides a 'professional warmth' that just feels right."

            Yea, for a person who has never used anything else. Basically marketing and PR. MS is very good on both, I'll give them that.

            "...simple things like switching to an external monitor, data projector, dual monitors really did just work on Windows but turns into a huge headache on some Linux machines"

            No, That has never 'just worked' on any versions of Windows either. But if you say it works "more often" I can buy that.

            "Little things like poor font quality on PDF's,"

            Literally same truetype fonts are available. Someone decided not to use them.

            " logistics client software that won't run",

            No wonder if it's a windows software. If it's an "IE only" web application you go and say it doesn't conform standards as defined by W3C.

            " quality issues with video playback,"

            Depends on the software: Haven't had any problems with VLC (outside of missing format support but all common formats are supported). So incompetence, basically.

            " lack of decent presentation software (with smooth animations/video),"

            So no-one bothered to look for one. Smells like an excuse. People can have a presentation with physical slides so 'no software' really doesn't cut it.

            " no reliable fully integrating email client,"

            No 'reliable' email? Really? Unless "fully integrated" means it looks and feels like Outlook. Basically "this is different, we can't use this"- argument

            " outdated office software"

            MS Office has been the ~same since 1990s. Define 'outdated'.

            ", convenience utilities (right-click USB format).....""

            USB format? Those come pre-formatted you know? Choosing it from a menu is obviously too much work. Again: incompetent support if they couldn't find any. Or port ones they found, that's not hard.

            To me this looks like a combination 'this doesn't have eye candy, we can't use this for work' and 'this is different of what we used previously, we can't use this' instead of genuine problems.

          2. JEDIDIAH
            Devil

            Re: and i doubt anyone on the El reg Forums does either

            Meh. When it comes to software, even dodgier options from Google manage to do the trick. Forget about more robust desktop applications (on any platform).

            Pretty much everything you've mentioned is actually MORE of a problem on Windows rather than less.

        7. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

          "say that using Linux has caused problems because of interoperability and the lack of programs they need being available in Linux."

          The first one I can believe but the latter is just a political excuse: Most of the stuff they use is custom software anyway and porting it to another platform is almost trivial when you have competent people doing it. 80% of the work in complex software is the design and last 20% is the writing of the code.

          Interoperability issues on the other hand is the way MS is keeping its monopoly: They are designed to be incompatible with anything, on purpose. And change the format with every version. Again, on purpose.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

        > Just what does this 1400 cover exactly...

        That'll just be for starters. Accenture is involved, so expect the costs to massively balloon out.

        I wish I was joking. :(

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

          You say accenture is involved?

          Oh the horror, I guess municipal tax in munich is going up. blood sucking vultures :(

      3. Schultz
        Holmes

        Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

        I guess they'll buy computers for the money?

      4. colinb

        Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

        don't know if Munich host internal but our current outsourcing provider charges €3000 a YEAR per VM.

        It could be sitting there doing nothing for all they care. Add in 40 Citrix hosts and the millions can total up very quickly.

      5. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

        "49M for 35000 users means a very expensive version of Windows 10... 1400 Euros per head..."

        Shhhh... you're not supposed to "do the math" - that's for THE EXPERTS. *You*, sir, are not an enlightened "expert" and so you can't POSSIBLY calculate this correctly. harumph, harumph, harumph...

        </sarcasm>

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

          What are you trying to say? That there might not be an ROI in spending 50m Euros on a base OS?

      6. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

        "49M for 35000 users means a very expensive version of Windows 10... 1400 Euros per head..."

        That is probably about right. Not for the Windows OS itself... but then you start adding the 14 products for management, security, etc that every user needs within the MSFT world. It is really expensive.

      7. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: €49.3m for Windows 10

        "49M for 35000 users means a very expensive version of Windows 10... 1400 Euros per head..."

        If you count that way, yes, but that's a false method.

        Windows 10 ultimate for each workstation, then a server for each 3 people using it, means 10k servers and server licences for those: First the server itself and then client user licences for each user, again 35k of those.

        Multiply that with the amount of applications and you easily get 1400 euros per workstation (servers are counted only into sum).

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Brauner Umschlag baby.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Microsoft's Germany subsidiary happens to be registered in Munich.

      1. Ledswinger Silver badge

        So it's a Microsoft Putsch?

        Or Night of the Long Faces (in the FOSS camp, anyway)

      2. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

        Microsoft's German operations have "happened to be" in Munich for over thirty years - all through this migration from, and back to, Windows.

        The company's move from Unterschleissheim at the edge of Munich into Schwabing in the North of the city is part of a broader trend in tech companies - today's graduates want to work in the heart of a city with good social amenities, not in industrial parks (see how San Francisco has taken over from Santa Clara/Sunnyvale or London's East End instead of the M4 Corridor). The city of Munich also provided Microsoft with a tax-break as part of the move, but nothing that wasn't given to other companies that relocated into this new "techology hub" located near to the city's two major universities (LMU and TUM).

        This was the first attempt to do a major rollout of Linux in a large organistion as the only desktop platform. It failed. That should not be unexpected: lots of "first attempts" at things fail. A mature response would be to conduct a detailed post-mortem of the project to see when and why it did not succeed, and address these customer concerns.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          " The city of Munich also provided Microsoft with a tax-break as part of the move"

          No wonder they are so cosy with MS, tens of millions of free money. For that money they should get every MS product for free.

          Migrating back and forth happens for very simple reason: Politicians changed and the current ones are paid by MS. The previous ones obviously weren't, but were instead blackmailed by MS (increase the licence fees 10-fold).

          Once migration is done, that will happen again and this time city will pay. You can count on that.

          If anyone believes there are real technical reasons behind this, they've no idea how politics works.

  5. jmch Silver badge

    It's the software, not the OS!

    "He said operating systems were becoming "more unimportant and other organisations are wisely spending their money for platform neutral applications." "

    Munich council agrees that OS is unimportant. They're not switching back for the OS, they're switching back for the applications:

    "...will make it easier and cheaper for us to buy public sector software on the market as everything there is designed for Windows (only)," "

    Makes perfect sense. Companies developing software many times start up from a single implementation for a specific client then expand it for similair clients requiring similair software. Most of the initial clients would have been Windows-based and there is little incentive to port code to Linux and also provide support. If I were an SME providing Windows-based software to a number of German municipalities, and Munich asked for a Linux version i'd say no, or ask for a development fee, higher licensing and likely higher maintenance and support fees as well because any Windows investment is amortised over many clients but I got only a single Linux client.

    For Munich Linux to have succeeded required either a few other German municipalities to follow suit, or for all applications to be cloud/browser based. For all the latest cloud advances we are very far from that stage.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's the software, not the OS!

      Ssshhh, none of you sensible comments here!

      Use Open Source, even if it not fit for purpose*

      * I actually use a fair bit, but I can't switch to Linux at work as several critical programmes I use simply don't exist in OS world.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's the software, not the OS!

      That's the thing. Windows developers are two-a-penny.

      Munich's mistake was it thought their suppliers could keep up. Our recent products (mostly banking/gov) are all cross-platform from the start, and browser-based when possible. It's been a strong selling point of ours, and quite a few have gone with us because it gives them flexibility later on (according to the TCs).

      People are trying hard to break out of the lock-in, and this Munich project only teaches us how important it is - they tried, but their suppliers where stuck in the past.

      1. nijam

        Re: It's the software, not the OS!

        > Windows developers are two-a-penny.

        Yeah, Microsoft stuff's always overpriced.

      2. Aitor 1 Silver badge

        Re: It's the software, not the OS!

        +1

        Browser based beats anything.

        And you can use quite obsolete computers, on many many platforms.

        But for that you need to redo everything, and many companies do not want to do that.

        1. vistisen

          Re: It's the software, not the OS!

          Browser based software does not beat everything. For most public systems that involve a lot of data entry, nothing is quicker than a form application. Browsers are for browsing not data entry that requires validation for each field. Only yesterday I sat with an end user in a ‘smart’ new portal web application who could not understand why it took longer to open the new record entry window in a browser than it took to open, fill in and save in their old Oracle forms system. As she said “it looks nice but it is so F#!&%ng slow”.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: It's the software, not the OS!

            ".. fill in and save in their old Oracle forms system"

            No wonder. I have to say I used to write software for Forms and it wasn't as easy as Oracle claims, but I have to say that those applications were lighting fast if I there were no stupid (i.e. slow) queries or something like that..

            One, having more than 30 fields on screen (I know, customer wanted all of it in one screen, faster to fill), could keep up, with all input validation and fill-in-data fetched from DB, with a full 10 finger touch typist typing data in. No mouse used, of course, just tab from field to another.

            Less than a second per field, every time. Fascinating to look.

            Then F10 and whole screenful of stuff was saved. It used a DB from a server 3 feet away so millisecond level latencies, saving time something not noticeable, "immediate".

            No web-based application can compete with that just because of latencies in every step.

        2. patrickstar

          Re: It's the software, not the OS!

          Have you actually tried using any fancy "browser based" software on an older computer?

          It's a truly awful experience. (OK, I'd argue that "browser based" software is frequently an awful experience on modern systems as well, but this is far worse)

          Even visiting fancier web sites is pretty horrible on say, a 10 year old average computer.

    3. Aitor 1 Silver badge

      Re: It's the software, not the OS!

      The problem I see is that they dont seem to want to solve a problem, but to buy something.

      IF 15 years was not time enough to make the software they needed, then they are doing the right thing switching to Windows, and given loads of money to accenture. After all, they don´t seem good at managing in general, so it is better to outsource decision making.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's the software, not the OS!

      "ost of the initial clients would have been Windows-based and there is little incentive to port code to Linux and also provide support."

      This doesn't make any sense at all: Money generates incentive as porting code to another platform is basically trivial (read:cheap) if it's not totally senseless to start with. Especially if the original provider was a small local company, i.e. custom software.

      80% planning and getting the functionality right, 20% for writing the code. _All of the code_.

      If it's C++ or something like it, a simple recompile is enough and you need to rewrite only UI.

      1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

        Re: AC "if it's C++ or something like it..."

        Holy shit. "A simple recompile and rewrite the UI"? I'm not entirely sure if you're being sarcastic.

        If not, all I can say is that you've probably never seen real-world, mature vertical-market applications. I once worked in a Fortune500 company whose entire software localisation workflow was contained in an "onClicked" handler on a proprietary forms API. The other state needed to process the job? That was read into other UI controls a priori, and extracted from there as needed.

        That might be the worst example I've seen, but in my experience, implementing application logic, and even application state, in the UI layer is sadly the rule, not the exception. Even if the project was deployed with a clear separation of concerns, when bugs arise, changes get made in the lowest impact, most easily-reached piece of code, and developers assume that UI-layer changes are lower impact than in modules with scary names like "Core" or "Master Controller". Over time, functionality in large applications leeches from the centre out to the presentation layers. (I'm sure there's got to be a snappy name for this phenomenon...)

        You're right that 80% of the job is thinking about what is actually needed, but show me an organisation that pays for "no code being produced". Misapplication of "Agile" methods (especially the incorrect assumption that no task can close without a source checkin) has made this worse.

  6. CAPS LOCK Silver badge

    I'm surprised it took so long...

    If Bill was still in charge this would have been stamped out yeas ago....

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "paralyse the city administration for years" and civil servants and that would "suffer"

    It looks a quote from Ajit Pai to explain some FCC ruling, deploy some FUD even if you have no facts to back it.

    Far right and far left are much closer than they think. Both wearing blinkers and putting ideology above all.

  8. Nattrash
    Mushroom

    German reporting...

    Looking at German sources, the amount of € 49.3 seems to be only a part of it...

    23.11.2017 17:41 Uhr

    https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Endgueltiges-Aus-fuer-LiMux-Muenchener-Stadtrat-setzt-den-Pinguin-vor-die-Tuer-3900439.html

    German reports state that:

    "Die vorläufige Endsumme betrage so über 89 Millionen Euro."

    "Davon entfielen 49,3 Millionen allein auf den vorgesehenen einheitlichen IT-Arbeitsplatz mit Windows."

    So the ~ € 50MM only is a part of the process, the total bill looks to be "a bit" higher...

    Remarkable:

    "Die Kosten für das Vorhaben sollten anfangs geheim bleiben." Hummm, now that always is a curious thing, when people want to keep the results of their decision secret. But then again:

    https://www.ris-muenchen.de/RII/RII/DOK/SITZUNGSVORLAGE/4740966.pdf

  9. Teiwaz Silver badge

    Doomed from the Start??

    Had they not performed a software audit before starting the transition to Linux in 2003?

    If so, they'd have known how many and what software was Windows only.

    Granted, needs change, new tools come along and quickly become must haves, but I'm not sure that was the case here.

    19 million euros to develop Limux, supposedly 10 million savings and now 49.3 million to go back to windoes...

    Yup, seems like government IT (and there's me thinking the UK had a the patent on horribly fudged IT projects).

    1. Warm Braw Silver badge

      Re: Doomed from the Start??

      According to an earlier report the principal complaint was a lack of compatibility between the odt document format used in OpenOffice and software used by external organisations. The proposed mitigation was that Munich had been hoping to ease some of these problems by moving all its OpenOffice users to LibreOffice and by funding updates to LibreOffice that improve interoperability with Microsoft's Office suite.

      So, it seems the main issue is that Linux doesn't run Microsoft Office - they have plenty of Windows machines for other Windows-only applications. Regardless of whether or not Munich uses Linux or Windows, it seems unsatisfactory that there is a de facto monopoly of office software that neither public administrations nor their suppliers can escape. I would have thought that the answer was for public administrations to mandate, as part of their procurement process, that all of their external communications should be in non-proprietary formats and that might encourage their suppliers to pressurise Microsoft to deliver the tools they need to win contracts.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Doomed from the Start??

        Then what non-proprietary standard do you choose?

        I'm not an Office power user, but are there compatibility issues between Open Office and Libre Office for an example?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Doomed from the Start??

          are there compatibility issues between Open Office and Libre Office for an example?

          Officially probably not, but some OO functions aren't even compatible between OO on Windows and Linux/Unix (string functions count from 0 on one, and from 1 on the other) and I have OO documents that crash LO when opened I'd guess the answer is "yes".

        2. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Doomed from the Start??

          "are there compatibility issues between Open Office and Libre Office for an example"

          I have seen formatting changes when printing a ".doc" or ".xls" file with open/libre office. And of course, the spreadsheet formulae in open/libre office use ';' instead of ',' (though last I checked it seems to read the Excel format just fine, and converts it). The thing is, if you save a document in a Micro-shaft format, the way the Micro-shaft program presents it is just different.

          So I'd say "get used to Open/Libre Office" to everyone from the top down, and then everyone standardizes on ONE office suite, and the problem is solved.

          But, you know how politics is. Nobody *EVER* has the testicular fortitude to make an ACTUAL POLICY DECISION like that. Well, nobody that's a CAREER POLITICIAN, anyway...

        3. Warm Braw Silver badge

          Re: Doomed from the Start??

          How about Open Document, AKA ISO/IEC 26300? The one that Open Office and LibreOffice use by default.

          It's an international standard, it has a test suite and it doesn't grandfather in a whole lot of undocumented proprietary binary formats from previous versions of Microsoft Office.

          There will always be incompatibility issues with different implementations - look at web browsers - but having more than one implementation helps weed out specification errors and ambiguities and drives innovation. The problem with one implementation dominating is that it is, de facto, the standard and other suites have to follow its lead even if changes are made solely to thwart competition.

          1. Walter Bishop Silver badge
            Facepalm

            How about Open Document?

            @Warm Braw "How about Open Document "

            The Microsoft Office Open XML format, not to be confused with the OpenOffice.org XML file format. What's the point in having the one document format?

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Doomed from the Start??

            "The one that Open Office and LibreOffice use by default."

            But by far the best ODF client is - Microsoft Office!

      2. GrapeBunch

        Re: Doomed from the Start??

        It has been mooted that Mun could have saved the Lin experiment by switching from OO to LO. My own experience is that while OO did not properly render a heritage Word doc (with, gasp!, images), neither did the most recent LO. By "not properly" I mean "dog's breakfast". Forget even that MS booby traps its office software to make the default save format incompatible with the current best compatibility effort that open software can make. "It don't go out the door, until DR-DOS don't work no more." This was a pretty old document.

        So I think the Linux people need to examine what happened, carefully and dispassionately. I wish them well.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Doomed from the Start??

          "Forget even that MS booby traps its office software to make the default save format incompatible with the current best compatibility effort that open software can make"

          You obviously haven't used MS Office in a while. The first thing it asks you is which file format to use ODF or MS.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Doomed from the Start??

            " The first thing it asks you is which file format to use ODF or MS."

            No it doesn't. Although company is using Office 365. But it doesn't even offer ODF as saving format.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Doomed from the Start??

              "No it doesn't."

              Yes it does. Very first thing it asks you after activation in both Office 2013 and 2016

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Doomed from the Start??

              "Although company is using Office 365. But it doesn't even offer ODF as saving format."

              Then your company has chosen to remove that option assuming you are using a local install and not the Web apps. MS Office is by some distance the best ODF client.

          2. JEDIDIAH
            Devil

            Re: Doomed from the Start??

            Even if you save in MS it will still be the latest revision and bugger any of your legacy MS users.

            That's been MS SOP since they still had to sabotage Lotus.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Doomed from the Start??

      Had they not performed a software audit before starting the transition to Linux in 2003?

      No need for that, guv. They read ElReg forums where noted Linux Specialists told how OpenOffice is 100% compatible with MSOffice, and even if it isn't fully compatible - it doesn't suck like Micro$haft does; WINE actually runs Windows programs better than Windows itself does, and even if it didn't most Windows programs have equal or better Linux equivalent in the repos. They were also delighted in how you can actually run Linux in the old 386SX Fujitsu-Siemens PCs they had warehoused away because Windows was such a bloat, and the fact that Linux has vastly greater device compatibility than Windows was a big bonus - XFree86 (in 2003, no X.Org yet) still had working code for the good ol' Tseng Labs and Trident cards...

      ;)

      1. Daniel von Asmuth Bronze badge
        Linux

        Re: Doomed from the Start??

        "you can actually run Linux in the old 386SX Fujitsu-Siemens PCs"

        Do you suppose the hardware would still be in working order? Do you still use 5,25" floppy discs and 9600 baud modems to access AOL? If so, you can run Debian Linux 0.01, but you should avoid XFree86 because that was such a bloat. No Netscape 0.70 either nor StarOffice, but solid LaTeX office suite.... Now if you have a real Pentium with 64 MB of RAM and a 10K SCSI drive, 100 Mb Ethernet, 21" CRT, the Penguin starts moving.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Doomed from the Start??

      Had they not performed a software audit before starting the transition to Linux in 2003?

      If so, they'd have known how many and what software was Windows only.

      Don't confuse the religious types with facts, they hate that.

    4. Daniel von Asmuth Bronze badge
      Windows

      Re: Doomed from the Start??

      "If so, they'd have known how many and what software was Windows only."

      There is no such thing as Windows-only software. There is only a price tag for either getting the vendor to port their code to Linux or finding a vendor who will build replacement products.

      49,3 Megeuri? Guess that will buy Windows 10, Windows 2016, Exchange, SQL Server, SharePoint and Office licenses for city staff for 5 years.

      Reg said that the Limux project is supposed to have failed, but only a handful of policiticans seem to think so to the extant that they think at all.

  10. PTW
    Facepalm

    No-one see the contradiction?

    On one hand they're spending >€49.3M "because all the software is Windows based" & they're migrating to cloud based applications.

    Which are usually browser based, no? Ergo, no need to switch to Windows, just to a non bespoke version of Linux

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No-one see the contradiction?

      "Which are usually browser based, no?"

      No. Most Office 365 users use a full local install of MS Office.

  11. DontFeedTheTrolls
    Linux

    Given it ran for 14 years, it would be really good if they could get someone impartial to investigate and report on the total cost of ownership for a comparison to other councils.

    If a substantially lower TCO was shown it could work as a carrot for councils and governments to agree to all switch to Open Source which would then work (clearly going it alone has been a major drawback). Or maybe the TCO difference is negligible...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Generating a report costs money. OSS doesn't have a marketing budget.

    2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      I think this might be the case in France where IT is centrally coordinated. But won't work in Germany where it's each council for itself.

      There was work done back in 2003 to justify the initial switch and there was the hope that "if you install Linux the developers will come". Didn't happen so time to pull the plug. Now, if they'd started by simply moving to OpenOffice and sponsoring that and other projects things might have worked out differently. MS doesn't make a lot out of selling the OS, it's Office that makes the money.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        MS doesn't make a lot out of selling the OS, it's Office that makes the money.

        And now ads and "telemetry"

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "... there was the hope that "if you install Linux the developers will come". Didn't happen so time to pull the plug"

        Yes and no ... This city is using millions for street sweeping, paying existing developers some money they could have basically everything ported. And we are not talking about millions.

        In open source development half a million is full time company budget. In MS environment it's consulting fee for how to do things.

        But I do agree on Office being the moneymaker, on top of selling personal data collected by Windows 10. Obviously they are selling it all, what's the point to otherwise collecting it.

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          In open source development half a million is full time company budget. In MS environment it's consulting fee for how to do things.

          Are open source developers that much cheaper than other ones? That would be news to me.

          Governments of all types have an unenviable record when it comes to commissioning software. I don't see why this would have been any different.

    3. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Coffee/keyboard

      "it would be really good if they could get someone impartial to investigate and report on the total cost of ownership for a comparison to other councils."

      You're asking for GUMMINTS to work like individuals and/or private industry would, and make actual sense.

      I am not sure whether to laugh or cry...

  12. Uncle Slacky Silver badge
    Mushroom

    "SPD voted yes"

    So, not just Rosa* killers, but Linux killers too?

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Luxemburg#German_Revolution_of_1918.E2.80.9319.2C_Luxemburg.27s_execution

  13. simonb_london

    Where Linux can live on the desktop

    Definitely not in organisations that centrally manage everyone's desktop and tell them what they will be using.

    I guess places that are mainly full of technical people who can't be told what they will be using and are happy to manage their own environment are the places you will see the most desktop installs of Linux. Places like Microsoft, for instance :D

    1. Jonathan Schwatrz

      Re: simonb_london Re:Where Linux can live on the desktop

      "Definitely not in organisations that centrally manage everyone's desktop and tell them what they will be using...." Actually works great as a virtual Linux desktop pushed out from a VM on a blade to a thin client. The problem is the application availability, not the OS. You can even make the desktop look so much like Windows that 99% of users won't even notice it's Linux.

  14. Doug 3

    crystal ball showing what Windows 13 will be like?

    No user training costs? No doubt that's just one of the smoke/mirror tricks used to help get this passed.

    Why could they not spend the ~50 million and negotiations with software vendors to port their software to a cloud instead of paying them standard pricing for more client based apps?

    This reeks of another Microsoft hard sell negotiation to eliminate a thorn in their eye which is another functioning large scale Linux implementation.

    Another waste of taxpayer money and money in Microsoft's pocket for many years to come.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: crystal ball showing what Windows 13 will be like?

      "Why could they not spend the ~50 million and negotiations with software vendors"

      They already spend €82 million trying to fix their stack to work with Linux. And got nowhere and the users hate it. As an example, they have to use VDI to a Windows box when they need a version of Office that actually works.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: crystal ball showing what Windows 13 will be like?

        "As an example, they have to use VDI to a Windows box when they need a version of Office that actually works."

        You mean: Provides the latest MS-format. Because otherwise I call BS on that.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: crystal ball showing what Windows 13 will be like?

        "They already spend €82 million trying to fix their stack to work with Linux."

        No, they used 82M in 15 years for using the tools they had. That doesn't happen for free.

        And now they will use 90 millions to migrate to another platform which will cost even more in 15 years. On top of the migration cost, of course.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: crystal ball showing what Windows 13 will be like?

      "This reeks of another Microsoft hard sell negotiation to eliminate a thorn in their eye which is another functioning large scale Linux implementation."

      Yup. Totally obvious to anyone who isn't looking this with MS-flaps on.

      They finally found someone who can be bought, it's as simple as that.

      Whole "migration" costs, before it has even started, 4 times more than Limux -use for 15 years but it's still "good idea".

      I somehow fail too see that ... maybe I read the numbers wrong.

  15. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Alert

    Delivery

    Well, let's hope that key personnel in charge of this aren't fresh from the Berlin Airport delivery

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: Delivery

      I didn't get that reference.

      But then: Never-ending construction: Berlin’s unfinished airport still plagued by ‘fundamental faults’.

      Well, Germany is the new Upper Volta with nukes.

      1. JEDIDIAH
        Linux

        Re: Delivery

        Is the Under the Linden subway line still under construction? They were calling it "Under Construction Street" when I was in Berlin last.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Buying non-cloud services

    They should be spanked for investing in 3rd party services that don't run in a browser / cloud.

    It really shouldn't matter what OS you use in 2020.

    Dickheads.

    1. kain preacher Silver badge

      Re: Buying non-cloud services

      How do you know that is an option ?

    2. vistisen

      Re: Buying non-cloud services

      In the EU there are rules about not storing private data on cloud systems that send all your personal health information to US based servers where the NSA then sell It to insurance companies. There are countries where councils are not allowed to use GMAIL for their post, let alone using cloud versions of their confidential case management software.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Buying non-cloud services

        "In the EU there are rules about not storing private data on cloud systems that send all your personal health information to US based servers"

        Which is largely why O365 does so well in corporates. Microsoft's security model can deny US based staff and systems access to EU based data. Unlike say Google who's systems are based on Linux with its less powerful security model that for instance can't block access by root.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Buying non-cloud services

          "Unlike say Google who's systems are based on Linux with its less powerful security model that for instance can't block access by root."

          Linux is irrelevant at that point, MS is running their cloud on Linux too. And you can bet local root has full access to everything.

          But Google is having basically single management: Everything is managed from US (meaning full access) and that's a no-no in GDPR.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Buying non-cloud services

            "MS is running their cloud on Linux too"

            LOL, who told you that rubbish. All MS cloud hosts run Hyper-v Server or Windows Server + Hyper-v!

        2. Kiwi Silver badge
          Windows

          Re: Buying non-cloud services

          Microsoft's security model can deny US based staff and systems access to EU based data.

          So, in the interests of doing a proper security audit, where do I download the source code for Office? Thought not.

          Unlike say Google who's systems are based on Linux with its less powerful security model that for instance can't block access by root.

          So what you're saying is admins on MS products cannot see clear text data "owned" by other users? So I can kill all chances of the administrator changing my config/desktop etc etc via "Policy" or otherwise just by changing the permissions on the relevant files? While we're on the subject, got any bridges you want to sell me?

          --> looks like someone's sniffing something nasty in MS-land again!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Buying non-cloud services

            "n the interests of doing a proper security audit, where do I download the source code for Office? Thought not."

            No but you can view it by asking Microsoft as a customer.

            "So I can kill all chances of the administrator changing my config/desktop etc etc via "Policy" or otherwise just by changing the permissions on the relevant files? "

            Yes If you deny access to admin and remove take ownership rights, you can.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Buying non-cloud services

        "There are countries where councils are not allowed to use GMAIL for their post, let alone using cloud versions of their confidential case management software"

        For privacy reasons, yes. That's a very good reason and GDPR will enforce it.

        Gmail is basically public data and has absolutely no privacy at all, just post it in Facebook, public section.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Buying non-cloud services

      Oh come on, you can't really be that naive?

      These 3rd party services you speak of, do you think they are all new? I'd wager some of them are older then me and I'm pretty old, my when I were a lad clouds were something that rain came out of.

  17. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

    Corruption??

    When I here the buzzword bingo from a politician on a highly technical decision, I wonder how much was in those paper bags they were taking home. A bit cynical but I grew up in NJ amid corrupt politicians. Note Philthy and Gotham were major leagues, Jersey was high minors.

  18. Walter Bishop Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Failing 15-year open source project?

    What's it cost Microsoft to move its European headquarters to Munich?

    "Our main goal was to become independent."

    Microsoft Germany moves into a new headquarters

    Report by Microsoft partner Accenture

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    With the switching from Linux to Microsoft the City of Munich will loose its total independence.

    Unhappily we have the use of newspeak language in the computer industry. When some sellers say that the system is “transparent”, this does not mean it is “clear” as water is, on the contrary when some sellers use the word transparent for Microsoft it should mean it is clear for them, but in fact it is not. It should mean “made invisible” or better “hidden”.

    MS is not transparent at all, when Linux without doubt is! In Linux there are no backdoors, as for MS there are. You may have the strongest frontdoor, but with the installed secret backdoors they are useless. Try to look for instance “simply(?)” at the “Registry Editor”. But you cannot, it is all very non intelligible, you may not use the GUI, and the user is highly advised not to touch it, because it can break the system. Know that it serves also to register all what the user do! It writes the date the user install a program, for instance, when he use it, how long. No such thing in Linux.

    With Microsoft there are too much non disclosure agreements between Microsoft, the hardware makers and the software editors. When you do not find drivers for Linux and Microsoft helped the hardware makers, is there is not a reciprocity expected that they make a driver only for Microsoft? With non disclosure agreements we will never know.

    With Microsoft no privacy, with Linux well. Everyone who have a good experience with “firewalls” know that some, if not most of all the installed software on Windows send extensively “secret(the word is not too hard) information” by Internet. On Linux except if you use closed software and that you want to update, no Internet exchange is used. Try to use Windows without Internet link. And there is much more…

    Munich, Microsoft “hear” and “see” you, very, very well, literally. But is there a reciprocity...?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      With the switching from Linux to Microsoft the City of Munich will loose its total independence.

      Eh? They never fully migrated to Linux in the first place, so where never "independent" (of Microsoft?) in the first place.

      Unhappily we have the use of newspeak language in the computer industry. When some sellers say that the system is “transparent”, this does not mean it is “clear” as water is, on the contrary when some sellers use the word transparent for Microsoft it should mean it is clear for them, but in fact it is not. It should mean “made invisible” or better “hidden”.

      Hmm, well I suggest you go look at the SystemD and GNOME projects, see how transparent those are...

      MS is not transparent at all, when Linux without doubt is! In Linux there are no backdoors, as for MS there are. You may have the strongest frontdoor, but with the installed secret backdoors they are useless. Try to look for instance “simply(?)” at the “Registry Editor”. But you cannot, it is all very non intelligible, you may not use the GUI, and the user is highly advised not to touch it, because it can break the system. Know that it serves also to register all what the user do! It writes the date the user install a program, for instance, when he use it, how long. No such thing in Linux.

      What are you on about? If you think there's security problems in Windows I suggest you compare it to the CVE list for Linux. And whilst the registry is what it is, the pile of scripts, settings files, and now SystemD's cancerous aping of the Registry, which pervades Linux is not really any better.

      With Microsoft there are too much non disclosure agreements between Microsoft, the hardware makers and the software editors. When you do not find drivers for Linux and Microsoft helped the hardware makers, is there is not a reciprocity expected that they make a driver only for Microsoft? With non disclosure agreements we will never know.

      A lot of device drivers are proprietary because they include information about the design of the device itself. For example a lot of WiFi drivers include firmware for the WiFi device, which basically represents the total value of the manufacturer. It's not surprising that they guard that kind of thing carefully. It's their core IPR. They don't have to give it away.

      With Microsoft no privacy, with Linux well. Everyone who have a good experience with “firewalls” know that some, if not most of all the installed software on Windows send extensively “secret(the word is not too hard) information” by Internet. On Linux except if you use closed software and that you want to update, no Internet exchange is used. Try to use Windows without Internet link. And there is much more…

      Right, but with Linux being devoid of useful native client software (e.g. a decent email client), most people head to cloud services (e.g. gmail). There's not much privary there...

      Munich, Microsoft “hear” and “see” you, very, very well, literally. But is there a reciprocity...?

      And exactly how are MS any different to Google/Apple/Amazon/Canonical/Redhat?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        ..."In Linux there are no backdoors, as for MS there are"…

        No reply from your part.

        ..."As for the the Registry Editor, why has this program to record every minute and hour of the use of the programs installed on Windows? In Linux there is no such thing"….

        No reply on that too.

        ..."Right, but with Linux being devoid of useful native client software"…

        Here you have already five client emails for linux: Claws Mail, Evolution, Kmail, Thunderbird, Zimbra, Desktop

        Useless to use bold for the characters. It is as you shout

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "Here you have already five client emails for linux: Claws Mail, Evolution, Kmail, Thunderbird, Zimbra, Desktop"

          None of which come close to the email and especially enterprise Calendar functionality of Outlook and offer far less native and third party integration options.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "None of which come close to the email and especially enterprise Calendar functionality of Outlook "

            So it's not a calendar software. That being irrelevant doesn't matter, right? Why would an emai-software even have a calendar built in? I mean any real life reason, not the one 'because the outlook has it'.

            "and offer far less native and third party integration options."

            Also irrelevant when there's no need for those.

            So what was the argument again?

            1. Pompous Git Silver badge

              "Why would an emai-software even have a calendar built in? I mean any real life reason, not the one 'because the outlook has it'."
              Outlook is a (basic) CRM (customer relationships manager). It enables you to directly turn email queries into timed reminders about contacting clients/customers. Shared calendars means you can organise meetings for several people without making multiple queries. Meeting invitations can be emailed directly. Outlook reminds you when your appointments are due and through synchronisation software sticks those appointment reminders into your phone.

              Of course if you can't see the need for customers, want to actively discourage them, or fail to turn up to appointments because you forgot to put it into your phone and your desktop computer then you wouldn't see the point.

              1. Kiwi Silver badge
                Facepalm

                Of course if you can't see the need for customers, want to actively discourage them, or fail to turn up to appointments because you forgot to put it into your phone and your desktop computer then you wouldn't see the point.

                And yet, strangely, throughout human history, people have been able to turn up for appointments on time, some without the benefit of clocks or a calendar system in their entire culture.

                And I've had calendar integration with Evolution for a long time, not that I've used it for much. I can't remember the specifics of it now but in 2007 I could enter something on my feature phone (RAZR V3 for those who want something to make their smart phones actually seem smart!) and have it available on my calendar when I got home (only thing I can recall using it for is either a co-worker suggesting a recipe I entered to look up at home, or a TV show etc - still could have the computer tell me when it was due easily enough).

                My current calendar is shared across a couple of bits of software on my tablet (was trying them both out, never came to a decision), Evolution on here, a mate's iphone and another mate's Thunderbird (because we have reasons to), and TB on my other machine. Seems easy enough to do, don't know why people say it can't be done without Outlook. Also tried creating calendar events from Evolution and Thunderbird. Both handled it, TB could perhaps use improvement but it's still more than most people would need.

                So. What does Outlook have that others don't again?

                And given your claims about business etc experience, why is it you believe that you need outlook's calendaring functions to have customers in business? If they're not customers, then what are those people who patronise firms who don't use outlook's calendar functions? My WOF place records all their appointments in a lump of dead-tree, sometimes as far as 6 months in advance. You saying that since they haven't been using outlook for the 40+ years the firm's been in business, they've not had a single customer?

                1. Pompous Git Silver badge

                  "So. What does Outlook have that others don't again?"
                  First up, far be it from me to denigrate dead-tree calendars. I have FY pocket Collins diaries a week to an opening going back many decades. However...

                  When I plug my HTC phone into the computer to charge, it automatically synchronises my Outlook contacts and calendar. Synchronising contacts with Thunderbird requires keeping my contacts in GMail. Sorry, but that's not an option in my book.

                  In my 18 months of living Linuxly, I could access the calendar function in Thunderbird (an add-in) while in Windows, but booting into Linux generated the message that the calendaring function was disabled due to incompatibility with the Windows add-in. Evolution didn't allow opening hyperlinks in a web browser and Evolution support never got back to me about how to enable that function. I tried another couple of applications, but they also had severe shortcomings.

                  Calendars are not just associated with people, they are associated with, for example, meeting rooms, computer labs, lecture theatres, and other facilities. In the dead-tree approach, you need to locate the person in charge of the calendar, and they might be at lunch, sick, on rec leave etc. Outlook (or other CRM) means any number of people in an organisation have access and can see when a facility is free, or booked. Even when your calendar is shared, you can block public access to the detail and have time shown as unavailable.

                  I came across CRMs before Outlook existed. Tracker and Goldmine come to mind. When Outlook was released, it was a pale imitation, but not so pale it wasn't useful. It became ubiquitous and there are, I'm told, some very useful add-ins to improve its functionality.

                  When I was managing a MS Certified Training business in the mid-90s, I had two underlings who were recent comp-sci graduates. Neither seemed able to grasp the concept of keeping a pocket diary and turning up on time to do what they were paid to: provide the clients with training. Keeping paying clients waiting half an hour for you to turn up is not conducive to repeat business.

                  1. Kiwi Silver badge

                    "So. What does Outlook have that others don't again?"

                    When I plug my HTC phone into the computer to charge, it automatically synchronises my Outlook contacts and calendar.

                    When I change something, all my devices that have a data connection get it within at most a few minutes. No need to plug anything in.

                    Synchronising contacts with Thunderbird requires keeping my contacts in GMail. Sorry, but that's not an option in my book.

                    Keeping contacts synced with google also not an option for me, so I don't do it (at least as far as google keeps their nose out of my devices traffic). I have for a long time used gmail for much of my email (other options for more personal/private stuff, so they have many of my contacts anyway (plus of course anyone I email who uses them or their mail app gives them my details). There are other options out there and I have used Owncloud but am transitioning to the very similar Nextcloud, IIRC using CalDav (ICBW). In the past I've used other options on my own hardware (like running an Exchange server in your office) but I can't for the life of me recall what I used.

                    In my 18 months of living Linuxly, I could access the calendar function in Thunderbird (an add-in) while in Windows, but booting into Linux generated the message that the calendaring function was disabled due to incompatibility with the Windows add-in.

                    I've not had that experience, but then I use a different system to sync so that may've been an issue with the setup you use. As much as I generally like it, I've found TB to have a few quirks - some are what most people can live with (like line/paragraph spacings that are a bugger to set up when you're exceptionally fussy about the gap between text on emails like I tend to be)

                    Evolution didn't allow opening hyperlinks in a web browser and Evolution support never got back to me about how to enable that function.

                    I've not had that problem, and I've used Evolution on and off for more than 10 years. I checked it now (being on an older Linux mint means I also have an older Evolution) and it handles links fine, opening up a new tab in me default browser (which is what I want it to do).

                    Calendars are not just associated with people, they are associated with, for example, meeting rooms, computer labs, lecture theatres, and other facilities. Outlook (or other CRM) means any number of people in an organisation have access and can see when a facility is free, or booked. Even when your calendar is shared, you can block public access to the detail and have time shown as unavailable.

                    That sounds more like back-end to me (with a decent interface), and I've not got anything available to me (that I'm willing to use) to look into it deeper. I have extended some PHP booking systems for one of my web clients a few years back, some simple hotel management stuff modified for their use (also had to include routing stuff for transport as they transported clients to the locations etc, as well as working in with other organisations). PHP with a SQL backend and some basic queries to see if a resource was free for a certain period or not, including stuff like figuring out the likely travel time, averages for driving at certain times of the day or night, can a driver pick up in Upper Hutt and Eastbourne and be at Wellington station in time or do 2 dispatches need to be made etc - mostly table lookups (driving time averages) and calculations (special needs customer so 20 minutes on site to collect +average trip 30mins +10mins allowance means driver must depart base at 10am...) I was even working on a module to calculate roughly when the vehicle should be pulling in for refuelling, and did have something handling the vehicle maintenance schedule (every X k's and every X months) including booking WOF checks via a simple email addon). The front end has been very much beautified but I understand the backend is still largely in use as it was when I signed it over around 3 years ago. No Outlook, no Exchange, managing their fleet, bookings, bookings involving other organisations, drivers etc, on a couple of small machines (one web facing for the stuff we were happy to have web-facing, one not web facing (but with a database link) for the other information).

                    If I, with my limited level of programming skill, could build that in a few months (working 2-6 hours per day around 4 days/week, including learning a lot of SQL code (had barely touched it before that) and how to sanitize stuff, encrypt and salt passwords etc etc etc), then others can do it as well - and better. True the calendaring side of it was just basic stuff pushed out to the staff, and they used the main front end to alter things (customers had a booking interface as well, but customers were limited not just johnny-off-the-street) rather than a calendar app or function in Outlook, but it worked well for them (especially given a lot of the other orgs they deal with still require a phone call, eg Jane Doe's Dr still needs to be phoned to book an appointment).[think I lost the point I was trying to make, oh well...]

                    When I was managing a MS Certified Training business in the mid-90s, I had two underlings who were recent comp-sci graduates. Neither seemed able to grasp the concept of keeping a pocket diary and turning up on time to do what they were paid to: provide the clients with training. Keeping paying clients waiting half an hour for you to turn up is not conducive to repeat business.

                    The term "graduates" is probably the issue there. I grew up around farming, and you had to be on time for a lot of stuff and you seldom had the benefit of electricity (except the nearby fences) and stuff like watches were often a bad idea (plastic strap ones not so bad). If you were out in the back paddocks putting in new fence posts and were due at the shed at 4pm for the afternoon milking, then you got on your bike/tractor/horse/whatever at 3:30 or thereabouts, got the girls from their paddock, and started the leisurely march to the shed. A few minutes late wasn't an issue but a half an hour could be a problem, especially if your farm was one when the milk tanker arrived shortly after you finished milking. Or the bosses wife was cooking dinner and didn't like anyone to be late (I still shudder when I think of HER size 10 boots!)

                    Most people I know who went from school straight into work have never had issues keeping time. People I know who've gone through university-level courses however....

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      What on Earth are you jabbering on about?

      The Windows registry is just a database of OS and application configuration settings for the machine and users.

      You can't use the GUI for the registry? Since When? I use regedit virtually every day. I also manage the registry using group policies and scripts. Yes, KB articles will always warn you that making changes you don't understand will potentially cause issues, but they are not forbidden. Most MS articles now will tell you how to fix things with a registry change, but then warn you that you can break something and give you a Fixit to safely make the change for you if you are not comfortable diving into regedit yourself. The manual registry changes are useful for administrators who need to roll out the changes to multiple machines.

      The only times using the registry editor is forbidden, is when I have stopped end users accessing it with group policy.

      Blindly making changes to Linux config files you don't understand is likely to end in tears as well. In fact I would say is easier to screw something up with a config file as regedit has some sanity checking on input but you can type anything into a text editor.

      Please don't talk total bollocks about something you obviously have absolutely no knowledge about.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "The Windows registry is just a database of OS and application configuration settings for the machine and users."

        Quite. It was a replacement for the dated and inferior text / ini file model used back in Windows 3.1 and has numerous advantages over that legacy solution.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          " inferior text / ini file "

          False. Human readable configuration is superior in anything except possibly parsing speed.

          But is that even relevant argument in current machines?

          Also centralized everything means a single point of failure and when it's utterly complex binary, there's no way to repair it once it's corrupted.

          It's not a database in any real sense of the world either, it's a bit bucket or a memory dump. Just like other proprietary, undocumented MS-formats.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "Human readable configuration is superior in anything except possibly parsing speed."

            You forgot the following advantages of the Registry:

            Atomic transactions with logging and rollback

            Strongly typed data formats

            Granular per key ACLs and audit policies.

            Single repository of configuration data in a known location and a standard format.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        For one post you already judge me with one sentence:..”Please don't talk total bollocks about something you obviously have absolutely no knowledge about.”…

        No answer about the fact that the Registry Editor record every used time of the software which is used and until now I did not met one article about how to avoid it. As you pretend to are so clever write me how to do it.

        1. ScottK

          Just where do you get your information from?

          Part of my job as an administrator in RDS environments is keeping an eye on exactly what is written into registry hives to keep them as small as possible for fast logons. Some applications (looking at you Samsung printer drivers) are very chatty and will write a lot of unnecessary garbage into user reg hives, so I just remove it again or exclude it from being saved in the first place if using something like Citrix profile manager.

          The registry does not record all information about everything you do. I don't know which conspiracy theory site you read this on, but it simply is not true. If it were, then registry hives would be growing at an absurd rate with all this logging, yet somehow I am able to always keep user registry hives down to less than a couple of megabytes in size. If I see that a users NTUSER.DAT file has unexpectedly grown, I will analyse it to see which application is doing something stupid and fix it. It might save a recent file list for some applications, so that you can go back to what you were last working on, but that is hardly a key logger.

          Every key and value that is written into the registry has a date/time stamp, in the same way that files have a date/time stamp. So yes, when you install or use an application, it will record the date and time for any values that are written for that application, in exactly the same way that config files will get their date/time stamps updated when you install or use an application that uses config files. It is just more granular as you can see when a specific value was changed, rather than just knowing when the whole file was changed.

          If you are that paranoid about what is being saved in the registry, you can always export it to a text file. That way you can look through every value that is in there along with their date/time stamps. There are also some excellent utilities such as REGSHOT and Sysinternals PROCMON and RU for analysing what has been written into registry hives.

          Alternatively set up mandatory profiles for your users. These are preconfigured profiles that are read only. All changes are discarded at log off. That way you can be sure nothing is being saved. They are a pain in the arse to manage though.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "The Windows registry is just a database of OS and application configuration settings for the machine and users."

        By default remote readable database, with user names and passwords. Nice.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "By default remote readable database, with user names and passwords. Nice."

          No not readable remotely by default - you have to choose to enable that and normally user information and passwords would be authenticated by Active Directory. And if stored locally it's via non reversible encryption as a hash. But don't let your obvious ignorance slow you down!

      4. JEDIDIAH
        Linux

        Yes, a database... a piss poor one.

        > Blindly making changes to Linux config files you don't understand is likely to end in tears as well.

        The great thing about text files is that they lend themselves very well to in line documentation. You can have very nice explanations for everything you might want to change. No special tools are required and the entire "hive" is very nicely partitioned. They're easy to view, edit, and backup with generic tools.

        One problem with the registry is that you end up with crap in all kinds of weird places. Stuff is cryptic and byzantine and hostile to human interpretation.

        The registry is over centralized over complicated trash that just barely gets along now that the underlying file system is robust enough to make up for the fact that the registry itself is a sad joke as a database engine.

        The fact that a system will strongly type data doesn't prevent you from inputing total gibberish.

  20. markr555

    The problem was the motivation

    The main reason for this failure is that the attempted switch was entirely for ideological reasons - they didn't explicitly want Linux, but rather 'not Microsoft'. There was no evaluation of what Linux (or more importantly the software 'ecosystem') could or could not do for them, just a desire to spank Microsoft. I worked for a software/hardware company that won a tender to supply educational whiteboarding capabilty to Munich, which simply HAD to support their distro. We implemented many changes to accomodate them in order to win the contract, but in the end they simply used Windows, as the OS was too difficult for the staff and students to operate and configure. This was undoubtedly the most sensible outcome, as the forcing of Linux on students for their entire education would only have crippled their prospects in the 'normal' world. In summary, Munich bit off their nose to spite their face.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The problem was the motivation

      " ... forcing of Linux on students for their entire education would only have crippled their prospects in the 'normal' world. "

      Patentably false: If you can use Linux you can use Windows. Or the other way round. And saying that MS monopoly is "normal word" reeks to paid opinion to me.

      It's a vendor lockup and there's nothing normal in that.

      1. JEDIDIAH
        Mushroom

        Re: The problem was the motivation

        School kids these days don't even get the whole platform wars thing to them. To them it's a strange oddity for dinosaurs. They don't care about what brand of OS or application they use. They move between them all with equal agility.

        If you think a kid these days needs to be taught a particular brand of software, you're way past the times.

      2. markr555

        Re: The problem was the motivation

        "Patentably false: If you can use Linux you can use Windows. Or the other way round. And saying that MS monopoly is "normal word" reeks to paid opinion to me"

        I use Linux on a permanent basis at work, I much prefer it, but to say that the MS monopoly is NOT the 'normal world' reeks of wilful ignorance to me - wake up! The world currently uses Microsoft, and any change to that must come via changes in business before education. Anything else would be to fail the mainstream kids' future. Note the use of the word 'mainstream'!

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Re: The problem was the motivation

          "The world currently uses Microsoft, and any change to that must come via changes in business before education. "
          I'd say the FOSS community needs to wake up. The lack of outlining in OO/LO was flagged more than 10 years ago. Code for outlining already exists in Impress, so it's not clear why the frequently requested feature hasn't been included.

          Will Writer ever provide MS Word style outlining (not navigator)?

          Bug 68167 - Create an outline view similar to that in MS Word and Apple Pages

          This is a showstopper for many writers.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Lets hope they have plenty of backup software if they're using windows 10. Oh and plenty of spare time waiting for it to update and break itself..... which it does frequently.

  22. razorfishsl

    there is a lot of GOOD german software on linux

    Univention is a good indication.

  23. J J Carter Silver badge
    Windows

    Achtung, achtung, Seattle calling.

    For you Helmut, ze Linux kernel compilings are overz.

  24. 2share

    ..."as the OS was too difficult for the staff and students to operate and configure."...

    Which OS please? As for the difficulties, this has nothing to do with the OS, but with the hours studyinvestments in the systems. With Microsoft no code is accessible with Linux well. This make everything in Linux more accessible and much easier to learn, except if you do not want to look under the hood.

    1. markr555

      I can't remember which distro, but it was modified heavily specifically for them. The simple fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter, how many mainstream businesses are using Linux as their desktop of choice? I can see the job interviews now:

      Interviewer: "so how much experience with Windows and Microsoft Office?"

      Candidate: "Erm, none at all, actually, but ..."

      Interviewer: "Well we've still got a few more candidates to see, so we'll get back to you"

      Like it or not, Microsoft are the choice for almost all businesses, and failing to provide a grounding in their OS and products for students, is to fail the students themselves.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "The simple fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter, how many mainstream businesses are using Linux as their desktop of choice?"

        Counterquestion: How many mainstream business hasn't MBAs as managers?

        And another question: How many companies actually have management competent in IT?

        I'll say you can count those with one hand's fingers. And many of those actually use Linux or Unix.

        When people who know nothing at all about IT are deciding, you always get MS. They don't put billions in marketing yearly for nothing. All of that is not targeted to engineers, but to management. MS knows how to steal efficiently: Go directly to the top.

        My company used RedHat as primary platform for everybody. Some people had dual boot but most didn't, no need to. About 50 people, mostly techical staff.

        Only time I had to use Windows (Vista as nothing else was compatible, not XP or 7) was to get multifunction HP printer to scan documents directly to the computer.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "Microsoft are the choice for almost all businesses,"

        Only because they haven't even heard anything else. Except possibly Apple.

      3. JEDIDIAH
        Devil

        ...as if.

        > Like it or not, Microsoft are the choice for almost all businesses,

        It's not 2000 any more. You need to get out more.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: ...as if.

          Indeed. It's not 2000 any more, and you don't need to choose between "Microsoft" and "Linux". Where I work e-mail, calendars, and lots of other stuff, are provided by Microsoft cloud services, but a lot of people (perhaps most) access those services from a client (web browser with plug-ins) running on Linux or Mac. Microsoft may well be using Linux in their cloud; it's none of our business as long as it keeps working.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: ...as if.

            "Microsoft may well be using Linux in their cloud"

            As a guest OS you mean. Azure hosts all run on Hyper-v.

  25. Jonathan Schwatrz

    Fools!

    Idioten! Buy Solaris, not Windows! SOLARIS!!

  26. thondwe

    Browser Based Desktop Applications

    Yes Browser based stuff works, but the GUI is nearly always slower and limited compared with the Desktop equivalent. many still have browser specific bugs and features (I'm looking at you SKY!).

    BUT it's then all tied to the internet connection - so use out and about still sucks (GWR Wifi in Wales for example) and if you're all SaaS that single internet connection is a big point of failure.

    All this so you can use a different OS which you'll never touch because it's all in the browser?

  27. Fenton

    Non paid for support

    Think about all of the non paid for support in most departments.

    e.g. Barry in Accounts has a small issue with windows (does not know how to do something), So shouts out, "Does anybody know how to do XYZ".

    Shiela in also in accounts says yes and helps Barry.

    Now most people in an office know windows/office to some degree as they have used it either at home or in another job.

    Now if you have a linux desktop with Libre Office, the probability of somebody knowing how to do something goes down massivily.

    Even worse is something does not work in Linux, you do a quick google and the answer is to run some horrid (to the end user) bash command to fix something.

    1. hplasm Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: Non paid for support

      "Shiela in also in accounts says yes and helps Barry."

      Barry helps Norm. Norm helps Julie.

      ...by the end of the week, nothing works any more.

  28. markr555

    Penguinistas fail to accept the facts shocker!

    The FACT is that Windows is the OS of choice for the vast majority of businesses - telling me that I'm a Microsoft shill or stuck in the past doesn't change this. The programme failed, if Linux was so suitable and the OS makes no difference when used in local government and education, why was this?

    1. Pompous Git Silver badge

      Re: Penguinistas fail to accept the facts shocker!

      "The FACT is that Windows is the OS of choice for the vast majority of businesses"
      No, the vast majority of businesses need to run particular software. That software is mostly only available for Windows. If it's multiplatform, then there's a Mac version. Only rarely is there a Linux version or competitor even.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "No, the vast majority of businesses need to run particular software."

    Even if they had a realistic choice that ran everything, most would still choose Windows. It has a long long list of advantages and features in the enterprise.

    Hence why say cheap crappy Wyse thin clients use Linux, but the more fully featured ones run Windows Embedded!

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