back to article MPs slam HMRC's 'deeply worrying' lack of post-Brexit customs system

MPs have today warned of the "catastrophic" scenario of UK taxmen at HMRC failing to have a back-up system in place if its Customs Declaration Service (CDS) programme is not ready in time for Brexit. A failed customs system could lead to huge disruption for businesses, with delays potentially causing massive queues at Dover …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    No problem ...

    ... I'm sure DXC or some other large consultancy (or better, a whole consortium of them) can get this done on time for a reasonable price

    1. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

      Re: No problem ...

      You forgot the 'joke' icon.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        re: forgot joke icon ...

        ... I had to post anon because I work for DXC... and they forgot the joke icon on my employment contract.

        1. 's water music Silver badge

          Re: re: forgot joke icon ...

          ... I had to post anon because I work for DXC... and they forgot the joke icon on my employment contract.

          pretty sure they didn't

          :-(

    2. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

      Re: No problem ...

      It's frequently hard to tell if it's sarcasm, or just some deluded Brexiter's opinion.

      1. david bates

        Re: No problem ...

        Actually the issue is more to do with the deluded remainers who told the Civil Service not to bother preparing for a Leave vote because it would never happen...

        Possibly the same deluded remainers who told us Europe would never have a joint armed force...http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-joint-defence-budget-french-president-nato-britain-brexit-russia-a7968346.html

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: No problem ...

          Actually the issue is more to do with the deluded remainers who told the Civil Service not to bother preparing for a Leave vote because it would never happen...

          So knowing that government policy up until the referendum was to remain in the EU and thus not waste resources on Leave, it was the Brexiteers who took office after the referendum who decided they didn't need to do any preparation and could rush into Brexit and invoke Art.50 because it would be soooo simple and would be all over by Christmas...

          Yes, the remainers who decided not to prepare for a Leave vote, were deluded in not thinking a Leave result was possible, just not in the way you suggest.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: No problem ...

          >Possibly the same deluded remainers who told us Europe would never have a joint armed force

          And what is the problem with a Europe wide defence force? - Why duplicate defence spending when you don't need to? Why not leverage increased requirements to drive purchase price down?

          1. Trigonoceps occipitalis

            Re: No problem ...

            "Why not leverage increased requirements to drive purchase price down?"

            Just like the Tornado,

        3. Smooth Newt
          WTF?

          Re: No problem ...

          Possibly the same deluded remainers who told us Europe would never have a joint armed force

          The UK has always blocked military integration amongst EU countries, which it has seen as a competitor to the influence that NATO has. So, now we are not going to be in the EU, the UK has been sidelined and the rest of the EU countries are doing what they like. This is an inevitable consequence of the UK's departure. What's your problem?

  2. phuzz Silver badge

    Well, if they only need "a relatively small sum" I'm sure there'll be some left out of the £350 million per-week we'll be taking back control of, right?

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "I'm sure there'll be some left out of the £350 million per-week we'll be taking back control of"

      Oh no, that was supposed to be the increase in NHS funding.

      Although latest thinking seems to be that will be lost in Brexit costing.

      So no my little Brexit voters, your NHS won't be getting that money after all.

      Perhaps in a few decades, once all the other Brexit bills have been settled.

      Maybe.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: "I'm sure there'll be some left out of the £350 million per-week ...

        "So no my little Brexit voters, your NHS won't be getting that money after all."

        Not that it ever was except, maybe, on whatever planet BoJo inhabits.

        And why, when I reply to an existing post with a long title, does el Reg barf because the title's too long?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: And why, when I reply to an existing post with a long title, does...

          perhaps the extra 4 characters from "Re: " takes it over the length limit..?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        re: my little Brexit voters, your NHS

        I wouldn't care that much if it was indeed _their_ NHS. Unfortunately it happens to be everybody's :/

    2. breakfast

      A lot of these numbers ignore that even if we can afford these extra amounts of money post-Brexit it will be because £350 million will amount to about 4 euros by then.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "However, it has admitted that major risks remain, meaning CDS might not be fully operating by the planned date of January 2019"

    The single biggest risk on this register is that HMRC and its suppliers have no idea what post-Brexit customs will actually look like.

    That's also why Treasury nixed extra spending on the CHIEF uplift (wot, you think HMRC just chose not to do it?). They felt it wasn't justifiable unless we knew the post-Brexit risk, which obviously depends on us agreeing something with the EU.

    1. John H Woods Silver badge

      "depends on us agreeing something with the EU"

      That sounds like hard coding business logic into a system if ever I saw it.

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      The single biggest risk on this register is that HMRC and its suppliers have no idea what post-Brexit customs will actually look like.

      That might be so, but from the tone of the headline and history, we can expect Westminster Brexiteers and their media allies to blame HMRC for not having a system in place, because (naturally) it isn't their fault they put themselves on the critical path (by invoking Art.50) and failing to deliver a draft settlement in time for the nation to be properly prepared for life after 11pm on 29-Mar-2019.

    3. nematoad Silver badge

      Gah!

      With all the complications now coming in to view, stuff like this, the NI/Republic border, financial passporting and so on I'm beginning to think "Why bother?"

      Funny that none of this was mentioned in the Referendum campaign and which finally focussed on immigration and the mythical "£350 million"

      What really gets me is the thought that if it really does go pear-shaped and we are reduced to a third party supplicant at the EU's door will we be able to hold those responsible to account? Probably not as they will, most likely, be spending more time with their money in the likes of the British Virgin Islands, Bermuda or the Channel islands.

      1. smudge Silver badge

        Re: Gah!

        With all the complications now coming in to view, stuff like this, the NI/Republic border, financial passporting and so on I'm beginning to think "Why bother?"

        Funny that none of this was mentioned in the Referendum campaign and which finally focussed on immigration and the mythical "£350 million"

        I think you'll find that the Irish border and potential loss of financial work, and lots more besides, WERE indeed mentioned - by the Remain side, and were dismissed as "Project Fear" by the Brexiteers.

        The Brexiteers promised the extra £350M per week, and cleverly focussed the campaign on immigration in the last few weeks - something that the Remain campaign seemed unprepared for and couldn't counter.

        It was a piss-poor campaign. Both sides deserved to lose.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Gah!

          @ smudge

          "It was a piss-poor campaign. Both sides deserved to lose."

          I give you an up vote for that

        2. Rich 11 Silver badge

          Re: Gah!

          Both sides deserved to lose.

          We are all set to lose.

          Well, except for the likes of John Redwood, who gets a hundred grand a year for advising wealthy people to move their wealth offshore before Brexit.

          1. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

            Re: Gah!

            Well, except for the likes of John Redwood, who gets a hundred grand a year for advising wealthy people to move their wealth offshore before Brexit.

            LIES! FAKE NEWS! It's £180 grand.

        3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Gah!

          "It was a piss-poor campaign. Both sides deserved to lose."

          Both sides have. One side has yet to realise that.

        4. handleoclast Silver badge

          Re: Gah!

          Both sides deserved to lose.

          The way it's turned out, both sides did lose (one way or another). Sadly, so did the rest of the country.

      2. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Gah!

        @ nematoad

        "With all the complications now coming in to view, stuff like this"

        What complications? We are leaving, the EU wont/cant negotiate, we are out. What amazes me is the belief that proving total incompetence or bone headed ignorance will keep us in the EU is taken as acceptable by those who didnt get the result they wanted.

        "the NI/Republic border"

        What a poor excuse to give up. This is the EU's problem, they want a border. The north dont want one, the south dont want one, the EU wants one. Its the EU's problem. For some reason the UK offered to do a soft border but the EU seem to want a Berlin wall or iron curtain approach. If the EU want it they can go do it. Not our problem unless we actually want a border for some reason.

        "financial passporting"

        What problem is this? The banks themselves have sorted this out much to the irritation of the EU. The green eyes who are gagging to get some of the action got almost nothing. The businesses got around the EU tantrum.

        "I'm beginning to think "Why bother?""

        And this is why I dont understand the remain argument. Take a load of things that are not a problem, pretend it is and then say 'but its too hard'.

        "Funny that none of this was mentioned in the Referendum campaign and which finally focussed on immigration and the mythical "£350 million""

        Leave had such a poor campaign I assumed it was there to make remain look good. Then I saw the remain campaign and saw the bar could actually be lower! Is it the end of western civilisation yet? No. The economic recovery we have been unable to get since 2008 fires up from the referendum result, are we doomed like Carney and Osborne claimed? No. Oddly the only thing to come has been a poor show from the EU. If they cant negotiate with us how the hell can they negotiate with any of the big players?

        "What really gets me is the thought that if it really does go pear-shaped and we are reduced to a third party supplicant at the EU's door will we be able to hold those responsible to account?"

        I do love this. We got the same kind of threats when it was the euro vs sterling. With the same rubbish arguments. And when we were proved right the word eurosceptic vanished! Thats because we were right. So when do you lot get to cough up all the money given to the EU in contributions, eurotech, lost trade? Cmon lets see your money. But no. If the country does fine outside the EU (as expected) you will disappear into the crowd just like those euro champions.

        "Probably not as they will, most likely, be spending more time with their money in the likes of the British Virgin Islands, Bermuda or the Channel islands."

        And who are they? Some shadowy cabal who run the world from the office of the illuminate? Maybe headed by Elvis.

        1. Alt C

          Re: Gah!

          @codejunky

          "the NI/Republic border"

          Oh come on please - i know you support brexit but the reality distortion field is strong on this one. Please try reading up before you post nonsense.

          NI and the RoI don't want a border - true.

          UK wants the border at the EU ports in RoI and won't entertain the hard border being at the NI ports. The EU doesn't like that idea because it messes up free movement within the EU.

          Both sides want a proper border with customs checks etc they just can't agree where it would be.

          The technology for a totally soft border isn't there yet (check out the soft border problems between Norway and sweeden) its also very expensive which would put a dent in the magical £350 milllion a week we will apparently (not) be saving.

          To claim it is all the EUs fault is not just disengenous but a lie.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Gah!

            @ Alt C

            "Oh come on please - i know you support brexit but the reality distortion field is strong on this one. Please try reading up before you post nonsense."

            See below

            "NI and the RoI don't want a border - true."

            What I said.

            "UK wants the border at the EU ports in RoI and won't entertain the hard border being at the NI ports. The EU doesn't like that idea because it messes up free movement within the EU."

            No. What? Eh? The UK has made suggestions because the EU demands 3 things- money, EU citizens get special treatment and Irish border.

            "Both sides want a proper border with customs checks etc they just can't agree where it would be."

            The EU want a border because it isnt a cartel if there is a huge gaping hole in it. The UK offered a soft border but the EU reject it because the EU cant have a cartel if there is a huge hole in it.

            "The technology for a totally soft border isn't there yet"

            I know, the UK knows as we tried it before. Just to repeat- the EU want a border because it isnt a cartel if there is a huge hole in it.

            "its also very expensive "

            Which is why the EU want the UK to make the border because the EU cant have a cartel if there is a huge hole in it.

            "To claim it is all the EUs fault is not just disengenous but a lie."

            See above and then take the first part of your comment I quoted and imagine me saying it to you.

            1. Alt C

              Re: Gah!

              No. What? Eh? The UK has made suggestions because the EU demands 3 things- money, EU citizens get special treatment and Irish border.

              No the UK wants a border at the RoI ports because migrants - they could check documentation at NI ports but won't do that.

              money - we agreed to be in a club with fees for a certain period - if I signed a 5 year tennancy agreement which didn't have a refund clause - i'd have to carry on paying - they are not demanding anything just expecting us to honor our agreements. - you know the way big grown up countries do.

              EU citizens get special treatment - just like we expect all those pensioners we exported to spain and france to get special treatment. - personally I'd like the EU to tell us to piss off and see how well we do without their nurses etc and with 1m new pensioners to cope with - that will be fun - mind you we could always rob all those poor commonwealth countries of their trained nurses instead - that will be fair.

              Irish border - once again both sides wanted one. your claiming the UK disn't want one doesn't change the facts.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Gah!

                @ Alt C

                "money - we agreed to be in a club with fees for a certain period"

                How much? The laughed at 60bn figure that was discredited or the 100bn that was painstakingly line by line discredited? And I dont recall us agreeing to be in the club for a certain period, otherwise we wouldnt be able to leave. But we are and we can and the EU is entitled to nothing. We should (as a moral argument) pay our existing bill which was something like 35bn ish. Be aware that part of that 'bill' is government backing of loans, in this case the EU backing of loans. So if we are on the hook for our whole portion then the EU must be incompetent as it loaned money with no chance of getting it back. Feel free to say they are incompetent or by the same token you agree with their bill.

                "EU citizens get special treatment - just like we expect all those pensioners we exported to spain and france to get special treatment"

                Do we? EU citizens wanting to remain here apply and get UK passports, UK citizens over there get EU passports. How is that complicated? The EU wanting its court to rule over EU citizens in this country (their demand) is an amusing joke but no.

                "personally I'd like the EU to tell us to piss off"

                We agree on something

                "Irish border - once again both sides wanted one. your claiming the UK disn't want one doesn't change the facts."

                UK soft border to appease EU proposed. EU rejects. EU wants much stronger (aka hard) border. EU gonna be disappointed and throw toys out of pram. Not our problem.

                @ Doctor Syntax

                "And we, apparently, want out. Well, it's us making the initial approach and if we really want out then we just have to accept the price because it's the EU that's in a position to set it."

                Wow thats funny but sad if you mean it. We want out, thereby we leave. The EU can do nothing about that. You see the lack of papers on our negotiators desks at the beginning, thats because its the EU who must start the negotiation and since they wont negotiate we owe them nothing, nada, zip, nil, null and none. The entitlement attitude gets them nowhere because we dont need anything from them. We can leave without their approval no problem. Now if the EU would like mutual trade so would we. But they dont. They want a hard border, a bunch of cash and incredible rights over our country. And they are entitled to? You guessed it- nothing, nada, zip, nil, null and none.

                "You never realised that before you voted "yes"? Why-ever not?"

                Because I am not desperately routing for the EU to the exclusion of fact.

            2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: Gah!

              "the EU demands 3 things- money, EU citizens get special treatment and Irish border."

              And we, apparently, want out. Well, it's us making the initial approach and if we really want out then we just have to accept the price because it's the EU that's in a position to set it. You never realised that before you voted "yes"? Why-ever not?

          2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Gah!

            UK wants the border at the EU ports in RoI

            How exactly does that work?

            Eu national arrives in Dublin - is not allowed in because they might walk across the non-existent Ni border?

            Truck load of American chlorinated chicken arrives in Belfast and is refused because it would be banned in the south?

          3. jonfr

            Re: Gah!

            Norway has freedom of movement since it's in EEA. UK is not going to have any of that once it's out of the EU. This is going to be closer to the Russia - EU border or Ukraine - EU border. You'll not be allowed closer than 10 meters to the border from the Ireland and UK side. Visa requirements to enter Ireland and so on. That's just the easy part to start with.

          4. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

            Re: Gah!

            The technology for a totally soft border isn't there yet (check out the soft border problems between Norway and sweeden)

            And as a matter of principle, there can never be a soft border. Remember 'taking back control of our borders' - isn't that what this whole farce is all about - making sure that nasty foreigners can't enter beautiful green UK-land without permission? So there has to be a hard border around UKland to make sure there aren't any nasty Irish people sneaking in to UKland in the boot of a car - or even worse, a (gasp) Pole!

            Of course, you could just move the hard border to Holyhead/Liverpool/Stranraer and make NI de-facto part of a united Ireland. Which will go down like a pint of three-week old cold sick with certain (armed) members of the NI population.

            Yep, Brexit will be so easy.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: Gah!

              @ Pen-y-gors

              "And as a matter of principle, there can never be a soft border."

              Thats why the EU rejects it. The EU wants a hard border otherwise Ireland as a whole will gain the benefits of being in and out.

              "Remember 'taking back control of our borders'"

              Economics, trade, law, sovereignty and borders. Yup borders are a reason. We do what we like with our own, including in Ireland.

              "making sure that nasty foreigners can't enter beautiful green UK-land without permission"

              from my perspective this is an odd statement repeated only by racists and remain supporters. I am not sure if remain supporters hold the same views as racists, desire the UK to become racist or seriously need to tell themselves something to make themselves feel better about leaving the EU.

              "Yep, Brexit will be so easy."

              It will if we come to no agreement with the EU. That way the UK can do what it likes about the Irish border that the Irish dont want and we obviously dont seriously care about (back to your comment on soft borders). I wonder if the EU will have the guts to piss of the Irish. I wonder if the EU dreams of a Berlin wall kind of thing. But I wonder more why our gov seems to insist on trying to negotiate with the EU who obviously are either unwilling or unable to negotiate.

            2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              Unhappy

              make NI de-facto part of a united Ireland...go down like three-week old cold sick

              with certain (armed) members of the NI population.

              Who Teresa May is not-in-coalition with.

              She and Arlene Foster are just good friends and friends do each other favors from time to time.

              The Conservative govt gives NI an extra £Bn and they agree to turn out for crucial votes to stop the Conservatives calling another election and BoJo/Rees-Mogg/Other right wing nutter to take over.

      3. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

        Re: Gah!

        @nematoad

        will we be able to hold those responsible to account?

        Of course not. In any self respecting society the people would be polishing the lamp-posts and placing orders for lengths of quality hemp rope and pitchforks, while filling tubs of tar and plucking chickens, ready for the great day of reckoning. In the UK? Nah, we'll just re-elect them.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Gah!

        will we be able to hold those responsible to account?

        Ironically for once - yes.

        All those 70 year olds who voted leave because of what Maggie did will see the value of their pensions drop and the price of imported cat food rise

        All the tattooed shell suit wearing guardians of English racial purity will see their jobs go to Chinese and India sub-continent immigrants that can be brought in once the UK is free of Eu rules and is desperate for a trade deal with China + India.

        Anyone who worked in the countryside, away from the London media elite, will be able to buy cheap US chicken, spray-on cheese and cheap bread from midwest wheat once we have a US trade deal negotiated between the UK and USA as equals.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Gah!

          "All those 70 year olds who voted leave"

          Not all of us 70 year olds voted leave. Still, stereotyping is easier than thinking.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Gah!

            Not all of us 70 year olds voted leave. Still, stereotyping is easier than thinking.

            Presumably the comment applies to - all those who voted leave ?

          2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Unhappy

            "Not all of us 70 year olds voted leave. Still, stereotyping is easier than "

            Let's say the demographics of the leave voters were toward the upper end of the age range and the lower end of the education range.

            However there were exceptions to both rules.

  4. lglethal Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Failure in waiting...

    "HMRC told us that CDS is one of its seven most important programmes..."

    If that isnt the signature of an impending program failure, I dont know what is...

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Brexish?

    Nev'r hurd of it, gov'nor. Rather we've got deez IT contractors nex we gotta ring'. What mass exodus / national IT shortage problem???... 'None here'!!!

  6. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

    We're fecked.

    So, clearly the chances of HMRC getting a new, tested, working system in place by March 2019 are approx zero, let's be honest. We're stuffed.

    BUT...once we've pulled the plug on A50 we're still stuffed, because neither will they have a system in place to handle the 'changes in the EU customs regulations' that are coming.

    The only good news is there won't be any more nasty reports of immigrants dying in the back of lorries, as they'd have to be insane to want to move to the UK if Brexit happens.

    1. Laura Kerr
      FAIL

      Re: We're fecked.

      We are indeed totally and utterly screwed.

      There are 353 working days from tomorrow to design, develop, test and deploy a new customs system when no requirements have been specified because HMRC don't know what they need and won't until the politicians finally pull their fingers out. And when they've managed to do that, then they need to debate options papers at leisure, allocate funding, bicker over budgets, let themselves be seduced by the consultancies' PowerPoint snake oil and eventually, long after the March 2019 deadline, award a contract to one of the usual suspects who will squeeze HMRC until the pips squeak.

      I really despair at the UK these days.

      1. Yes Me Silver badge
        Stop

        Re: We're fecked.

        Yes, the lorry park formerly known as South-East Kent will be pretty jammed if things proceed as unplanned. It would be quite entertaining if they had to go to paper-based forms while waiting for the final bugs to be ironed out of a system that hasn't even been specified yet.

        1. Korev Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: We're fecked.

          Yes, the lorry park formerly known as South-East Kent will be pretty jammed if things proceed as unplanned

          If it's caused by the computer system not being ready, could they rename "Operation Stack" to "OpenStack"?

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: We're fecked.

            Yes, the lorry park formerly known as South-East Kent will be pretty jammed if things proceed as unplanned

            Once we brick up the tunnel why would they need to queue up in Kent ?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: We're fecked.

        let themselves be seduced by the consultancies' PowerPoint snake oil

        As a former employee of the Inland Revenue, ancestor to HMRC, I rarely find cause to insist on due credit being given, but after outsourcing all their IT development 20 years ago they have over the past few years in-housed much of the capability back from the quondam Aspire partners. CapGemini and Fujitsu still have their claws into some things, but all the new whizzy stuff is being done by arms-length pseudo-Civil Servants. They have, it seems, finally learned at least some of the lessons.

        They're still over the barrel for CHIEF, as it runs on proprietary mainframe software which will no doubt carry a hefty licence burden if it needs to be scaled up. There are no cost-free options to sort out this particular mess.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: We're fecked.

          "They have, it seems, finally learned at least some of the lessons."

          Not really. Most of the staff at RCDTS (the "pseudo civil service") are either ex-Capgemini/Fujitsu or day rate IR35-dodgers. It's the same people with none of the financial controls.

        2. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

          Re: We're fecked.

          @AC

          +1 for 'quondam' - and an extra one if you can get 'erstwhile' in to a reply.

      3. Christoph Silver badge

        Re: We're fecked.

        Don't forget that all the systems that have to work with customs must also be upgraded and tested. Every firm that imports or exports must have its in-house systems working by B-Day, and they can't even start until the new system is defined.

        1. Rich 11 Silver badge

          Re: We're fecked.

          B-Day

          Is that what we're calling it now? Buggered Day?

          1. Christoph Silver badge

            Re: We're fecked.

            Is that what we're calling it now? Buggered Day?

            It's when our economy gets washed down the B-Day.

            1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              Unhappy

              "It's when our economy gets washed down the B-Day."

              I think HMG is seeking to have that renamed "foot bath."

          2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Unhappy

            "Is that what we're calling it now? Buggered Day?"

            It may not be what it's called.

            But it's certainly looking like that will be the outcome.

            If I downed a load of anti-depressants I might just about think that yes there is enough time to design, develop, test, re-work and roll out a new system (and all the interfaces to all the other systems it has to interface to) in the time allowed. It will also be flexible enough to allow on the fly updating of the system (by authorized personnel only of course) by updating various database entries in the configuration system, and one of the configurations pre configured into the system will be a close(ish) match to what is finally needed from day one.

            However with that many pills inside of me I'd a) Be close to needing my stomach pumped and b) Actually think Brexit was a good idea to start with IOW I'd be tripping off my tits.

  7. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

    You just have to take on look at David Davis puffy, aging and tired face to realise that we are in excellent hands post Brexit...

    1. Warm Braw Silver badge

      I presume David Davis and his fellows will vanish post-Brexit, following the route pioneered by David Cameron.

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        "I presume David Davis and his fellows will vanish post-Brexit, "

        Which is actually pretty bad news as he seemed the only IT literate Conservative with an interest in protecting UK citizens privacy.

        1. Zippy's Sausage Factory

          Re: "I presume David Davis and his fellows will vanish post-Brexit, "

          "I presume David Davis and his fellows will vanish post-Brexit, "

          Which is actually pretty bad news as he seemed the only IT literate Conservative with an interest in protecting UK citizens privacy.

          Until he got a ministers' job and then suddenly he couldn't distance himself from that cause fast enough, sadly.

        2. smudge Silver badge

          Re: "I presume David Davis and his fellows will vanish post-Brexit, "

          Which is actually pretty bad news as he seemed the only IT literate Conservative with an interest in protecting UK citizens privacy.

          I always thought that was odd, since otherwise he is pretty right-wing.

          Nowadays I understand - his main interest was in protecting his own ego.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: "I presume David Davis and his fellows will vanish post-Brexit, "

            @ smudge

            "Which is actually pretty bad news as he seemed the only IT literate Conservative with an interest in protecting UK citizens privacy.

            I always thought that was odd, since otherwise he is pretty right-wing."

            I am going to need you to marry those two statements in some way. What is wrong with him being right wing and the rest of that comment?

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: "I presume David Davis and his fellows will vanish post-Brexit, "

              @ smudge

              Damn I was really hoping for an answer to that one (from you or anyone who knows what your talking about) instead of up/down votes

      2. Rich 11 Silver badge

        I presume David Davis and his fellows will vanish post-Brexit, following the route pioneered by David Cameron.

        If they fuck it all up -- and I think they are -- they're going to need a 24/7 bodyguard service once the full understanding of what they've done sinks in.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          >If they fuck it all up -- and I think they are -- they're going to need a 24/7 bodyguard service once the full understanding of what they've done sinks in.

          I haven't worked out if they are f*cking it up deliberately or through a mixture of incompetence and arrogance. I suspect the latter but we'll probably never find out for definite.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            "I haven't worked out if they are f*cking it up deliberately or through a mixture of incompetence and arrogance."

            Neither. Just through sheer impossibility. It's just that some of us could see that and voted accordingly. The rest are having to find it out the slow and painful way. Some will cotton on and others will go down the "no true Scotsman" reasoning to delude themselves for ever.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Boris already needs a 24/7 body guard. You won't see it reported in main stream media and I suspect it will need to be tightened after his recent gaffs too.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            "I suspect it will need to be tightened after his recent gaffs too."

            Tightened as a gag, one hopes.

        3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "they're going to need a 24/7 bodyguard service once the full understanding"

          If only.

          In the words of this political operator "The British people are infinitely gullible."

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        following the route pioneered by David Cameron.

        Cameron said he would negotiate a better EU deal, and then put it to a referendum. He negotiated sweet FA, got a smack in the face in the referendum, and quite correctly decided that he would have no credibility as a Brexit negotiator. The only bad thing about his departure is that we got stuck with Theresa May, who we can only hope gets a large boot up the rear in the near future.

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Cameron said he would negotiate a better EU deal

          Well if you look at what he did get agreement on, there were some important slow burners in there.

          However, if you use Cameron's efforts as a yardstick of negotiating with the EU, things look very different. Because with very little investment - no new government departments etc. and in a very short time frame what he achieved was significant. Compared this to T.May and her Brexit monkeys and it is clear the current government haven't got a clue, other than how to waste vast sums of public money.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            @ Roland6

            "Well if you look at what he did get agreement on, there were some important slow burners in there."

            He didnt get an agreement. The proposals would have to be voted on unanimously once the referendum was over. Cameron got nothing.

            "it is clear the current government haven't got a clue, other than how to waste vast sums of public money."

            I think that sums up governments pretty well. This one no different.

            1. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: @ Roland6

              @Codejunky - Cameron did get an agreement, just that he made our acceptance conditional on the referendum; T.May et al are currently trying to avoid a repeat performance over their Brexit negotiations...

              I think that sums up governments pretty well. This one no different.

              Agree - but there is a nice irony to having a Conservative party/government, committed to a small state, massively increasing the size of the civil service :)

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: @ Roland6

                "Cameron did get an agreement, just that he made our acceptance conditional on the referendum"

                Sort of. Simply it was an agreement which was shoddy in its binding (https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-it-legally-binding/) which is not an agreement. He had an agreement not to use GBP to prop up Greece and the EU did it anyway so the EU has no form on keeping to agreements.

                "Agree - but there is a nice irony to having a Conservative party/government, committed to a small state, massively increasing the size of the civil service :)"

                Do they still try to claim this? If they do I wonder if anyone believes them. Really does seem to be slim pickings for parties wanting to reduce the civil service (or having the guts to do so).

  8. Aristotles slow and dimwitted horse Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Why do we need to import anything...

    We have everything we need in the good old UK commune. Just looking around my office I can see everything we need. There are some nice sticks over there by the filing cabinet, and... oh, there were definitely some tea bags in the kitchenette area last time l looked.

    1. SVV Silver badge

      Re: Why do we need to import anything...

      I think you'll find that the tea in the teabags isn't actually GROWN in Yorkshire.... maybe we can look forward to decades of drinking delicious "rhubarb tea"

      So the MPs are slamming the unpreparedness of IT systems for brexit, after telling everyone for ages that it would all be so easy. Would be interested to know how businesses are supposed to make their systems compliant, when we don't know wheret the hell the rules are going to be once we leave thanks to the "everything's going great, but we;re not going to tell you what we've achieved until the very end" attitude of the government.

      Plus, if the system was anywhere near well designed, it would scale horizontally, allowing additional load demands to be met simply by adding more servers. But this is government IT and they obviously don't care about stuff like that when they can feel ideologically correct about the "put everything out to competetive tender and award to the lowest bidder" (i.e. Capita, EDS or one of the other of those lot) process.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why do we need to import anything...

        you'll find that the tea in the teabags isn't actually GROWN in Yorkshire.

        Nor anywhere in the EU, for that matter.

        1. H in The Hague Silver badge

          Re: Why do we need to import anything...

          Well, they do grow tea in Cornwall

          https://tregothnan.co.uk/

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Why do we need to import anything...

          "Nor anywhere in the EU, for that matter."

          <cough> https://tregothnan.co.uk/

          1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

            Re: Why do we need to import anything...

            <cough> https://tregothnan.co.uk/

            Indeed, how could I have forgotten. I was in that part of the world this summer & saw the ads. Thanks for the reminder.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Why do we need to import anything...

              All lies, tea comes from China, I know this because people often refer to "all the tea in China" therefore all the tea is in China.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Why do we need to import anything...

        I think you'll find that the tea in the teabags isn't actually GROWN in Yorkshire

        Tea is Camellia sinensis. I'm sure it could be grown on Ilkley moor: http://www.rhsplants.co.uk/plants/_/camellia-sinensis-var-sinensis/classid.2000021386/ It's an ericaceous plant so the soils should suit and the climate can't be worse than the Himalayas.

        maybe we can look forward to decades of drinking delicious "rhubarb tea"

        That should keep things moving.

      3. Christoph Silver badge

        Re: Why do we need to import anything...

        maybe we can look forward to decades of drinking delicious "rhubarb tea"

        And the English Oak trees will give us plenty of acorns so we don't need to import that foreign 'coffee' stuff!

        (Wanders off singing "Hearts of Oak". Very badly, and off-key.)

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Why do we need to import anything...

          @ Christoph

          "And the English Oak trees will give us plenty of acorns so we don't need to import that foreign 'coffee' stuff!"

          None of my coffee comes from the EU.

          1. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

            Re: Why do we need to import anything...

            @codejunky

            None of my coffee comes from the EU.

            No, but the EU has 0.0% tariff on import of unroasted coffee, whereas WTO rules (if I interpret them rightly, which I probably haven't) looks like 20%.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: Why do we need to import anything...

              @ Pen-y-gors

              "No, but the EU has 0.0% tariff on import of unroasted coffee, whereas WTO rules (if I interpret them rightly, which I probably haven't) looks like 20%."

              You didnt. WTO rules state the maximum we can charge, there is no minimum. Only what we apply to one we must apply to all. So where the EU prices the poor world out of foodstuffs because it will upset french farmers we wont be stuck with that dumb policy and can easily reduce the costs of imports without protecting the protectionist interests of the rest of the EU.

              Amusingly the doom-song efforts either assume we will use the same tariffs as the EU (which is self defeating) or the maximum WTO tariffs. Both assumptions being extremely stupid and only valid for propaganda.

              1. Dave Schofield

                Re: Why do we need to import anything...

                >You didnt. WTO rules state the maximum we can charge, there is no minimum. Only what we apply to one we must apply to all. So where the EU prices the poor world out of foodstuffs because it will upset french farmers we wont be stuck with that dumb policy and can easily reduce the costs of imports without protecting the protectionist interests of the rest of the EU.

                Just out of interest, but what happens to the native UK farming industry if we reduce import tariffs to 0?

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: Why do we need to import anything...

                  @ Dave Schofield

                  "Just out of interest, but what happens to the native UK farming industry if we reduce import tariffs to 0?"

                  That is a really good question. Right now our farming survives because even though nobody in their right mind would pay so much for so little, the gov takes our money (include EU in this) and gives it to them so we will buy their products. Basically we are overcharged. But the UK doesnt produce much of what we eat and it is overpriced for what it is.

                  Apparently New Zealand did something similar in making farming stand on its own 2 feet and it did. Basically our food costs go down and our farming industry either produces something of value or folds.

                  1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
                    Unhappy

                    "what happens..native UK farming industry if..reduce import tariffs to 0?" "a really good question."

                    You bet it is.

                    A substantial part of the Europe still has the idea of "part time farmers," where they have smallish holdings and day jobs. People who run a few chickens, and/or cows, maybe some rabbits.

                    But the UK had to "industrialize" it's farming during WWII.

                    As a result it's got a relatively small number of very large (by European standards) farm holdings in a small number of hands.

                    And a lot of them are on a nice fat subsidy check from the EU, along with assorted MP's and TV presenters.

                    A lot of them are also in what was the "Country Landowners Association" and (surprise surprise) are part of the Tory rump.

                    Fat cats don't like having their cream supply cut off, so don't be too surprised if your little free market fantasy "suddenly" develops a few hitches.

                    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                      Re: "what happens..native UK farming industry..

                      On the one side Lord whatsit with his home counties seat, on the other Monsanto saying that if Ms May wants a photo op with the president then restrictions on GM / hormones / antibiotics / pesticides better come into line with the USA and any restrictions on US agri-business buying UK farms are going away

                    2. codejunky Silver badge

                      @ John Smith 19 native UK farming industry

                      "Fat cats don't like having their cream supply cut off, so don't be too surprised if your little free market fantasy "suddenly" develops a few hitches."

                      I am not sure if your comment is for the EU or against. It seems to say that the current system is that and it is bad (ok I will accept) but on leaving we might have the same bad system. If we dont try to move away from a bad system then we are guaranteed the bad system.

                      Sorry I am honestly confused.

                      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
                        Unhappy

                        "Sorry I am honestly confused."

                        Then perhaps you shouldn't have voted in the first place?

                        "f we dont try to move away from a bad system then we are guaranteed the bad system."

                        Only if you bi**ed about it endlessly while doing nothing constructive about changing it while you are a part of that system. Brexiteers whine about "remoaners," having bi**hed on for 42 years to get another vote.

                        British people seem to have some hazy, comfortable, idyllic view of the British Countryside which was bul***hit in the 19th century and is a total fantasy in the 21st.

                        That "patchwork of small fields" got ripped out ASAP during WWII as the UK struggled to live on what supplies it could buy abroad and ship back home without them being sunk by U boats.

                        What people don't realize is just how capital intensive modern farming is. That's why quite a lot of it is now owned by Insurance and investment companies. A decade ago the average hardware on an arable farm was £1million. That's more than a good few light engineering companies have as assets. BTW It's also a very tax effective way to operate. Write offs and support everywhere. It's no wonder a typcial large farm will have a "Farm Manager" and a full time Tractor Driver, because frankly Farmer Palmer ain't got time to actually farm.

                        I wonder if the UKG is ready to go on handing that money out to the Country Land and Business Association Limited as they are now called (who are BTW currently looking for a Taxation Adviser )

                        Membership has it's privileges.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: "Sorry I am honestly confused."

                          @ John Smith 19

                          "Then perhaps you shouldn't have voted in the first place?"

                          Because your comment is either for leaving the EU or resigning yourself to a system you consider bad? Surely your considering that system bad would cause you to want to move away from it?

                          "Only if you bi**ed about it endlessly while doing nothing constructive about changing it while you are a part of that system."

                          Thats interesting. So remainers are going to work with us to make brexit work? Or do you mean Cameron's amusing attempt to get minor and fairly pointless concessions from the EU or he will campaign to leave (he didnt get them and he didnt campaign to leave). Or before that where he had a written agreement that the GBP contribution would not be used to prop up the EUR (Greece) and then they did it anyway. In a system which refuses to reform even when it knows its going to the wall.

                          "British people seem to have some hazy, comfortable, idyllic view of the British Countryside which was bul***hit in the 19th century and is a total fantasy in the 21st."

                          What does that have to do with the price of fish?

                    3. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                      Re: "what happens..native UK farming industry if..reduce import tariffs to 0?" " ...

                      But the UK had to "industrialize" it's farming during WWII.

                      As a result it's got a relatively small number of very large (by European standards) farm holdings in a small number of hands.

                      It's not that simple.

                      It's been a tradition in England for centuries that the eldest son inherited the farm, and other children had to do something else (hence the stereotype that the 2nd son went into the army, and the third entered the church). That model ensured that farms remained intact, and large, and over time, as people bought neighbouring farms, the overall size increased.

                      In other countries, France as an obvious example, that practice is illegal. The law requires that all children inherit equally, so when a farmer with 4 children dies the farm is necessarily cut into 4 pieces and shared out. Even if one child can raise the money to buy out a sibling this still tends to keep farms small, fragmented, and uneconomic. It's almost impossible to create a large farm in such countries, hence the huge tax subsidies handed out to keep such small farms going. This imbalance in the CAP is one of the reasons that the UK rebate was negotiated, because UK farmers received far less in subsidy than their continental equivalents. If left to operate solely on their own merits the UK farming sector would be in far better economic health than those in most of the EU.

                      Standardizing inheritance rules across the EU would of course be a way to "solve" this, but would clearly be politically impossible. Like so many things (taxes, pensions, etc.) it shows why the "union" is just a pipe dream, and why all those tax-funded eurocrats can only nibble at the edges of a true common Europe by tweaking the trivial stuff, like mobile phone roaming charges.

                      1. Roland6 Silver badge

                        Re: "what happens..native UK farming industry if..reduce import tariffs to 0?" " ...

                        Standardizing inheritance rules across the EU would of course be a way to "solve" this, but would clearly be politically impossible.

                        The trouble would be that even if the rules standardised on the UK convention, those who voted Leave would still see this as Brussels dictating to the UK and thus a loss of 'sovereignty'...

                        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                          Re: "what happens..native UK farming industry if..reduce import tariffs to 0?" " ...

                          those who voted Leave would still see this as Brussels dictating to the UK

                          And those in other EU countries would see it as Brussels siding with the UK. That's why the EU cannot work, there will never be agreement on the serious issues. They'll keep rearranging the deckchairs while the ship continues to sink under them.

                          Economic co-operation works, and is accepted by most people, but the spectrum of social and political views is simply too different across Europe (which is its huge strength). It's a classic case of the whole being more than the sum of the parts, but a central government will never see beyond that simple sum of parts. They can't even commit to one place for the parliament for fear of offending the French, most MEPs would prefer to be in Brussels full-time,but they still have to have the Strasbourg-Brussels commute to keep the French sweet.

                          1. Roland6 Silver badge

                            Re: "what happens..native UK farming industry if..reduce import tariffs to 0?" " ...

                            That's why the EU cannot work, there will never be agreement on the serious issues.

                            And is that really a bad thing? Do you really want the EU to 'work' as per say the US?

                            Remember Margaret Thatcher joined the EU, not because she believed in it, but to ensure the UK had a voice at the table where decisions over its (and the Single Market - which M.Thatcher did believe in) future and thus protect UK interests.

                            At some stage with the "EU not working" someone with influence in the EU will decide that current arrangements can no longer stand and propose a new model - just as M.Thatcher did back in the 80's with the EEC and proposed the Single Market which addressed many of the trade failings of the EEC, the question is, post-Brexit, how will UK interests be protected?

                            Once you step outside the confines of the Nigel Farage/UKIP 'little Englander' box, it becomes obvious, the best way to leave the EU (in its current form) and protect UK interests is to remain! :) However, that doesn't mean necessarily accepting the current EU, warts and all. I suspect that T.May and her monkeys are beginning to realise this simple fact and are now heading towards a no deal Brexit as an act of throwing their toys out of the pram...

                            1. Anonymous Coward
                              Anonymous Coward

                              Re: "what happens..native UK farming industry if..reduce import tariffs to 0?" " ...

                              Remember Margaret Thatcher joined the EU

                              No, John Major did, when he signed up to Maastricht, despite all the opinion polls showing that people didn't want him to.

                              At some stage with the "EU not working" someone with influence in the EU will decide that current arrangements can no longer stand and propose a new model

                              And the EU politcians will reply, as they always have, with their mantra of "EU not working, then we need more Europe to fix it". The idea of staying in and making it change worked for a co-operative community, but it has never, and will never, work for a political union that is run for and by the politicians. It would, of course, have been better to change it from within, but 25 years of trying has shown that anyone who tried to rock the boat was simpy ignored. It's what Cameron tried to do, and failed completely. The EU leaders don't accept that it's failing, and so won't listen to any attempt to fix it. It'll take a real disaster to make them see that, and I for one would rather not be in the EU when that happens.

                              now heading towards a no deal Brexit as an act of throwing their toys out of the pram

                              EU politicians have long been used to determining everything that happens in the EU, by right. That can be seen in the way they're trying to run both sides of the Brexit negotiations, they simply assume that they can tell the UK how to negotiate, and we'll do what we're told. The only way to make them sit up and pay attention would seem to be the likelihood of a "no deal Brexit". Like any negotiation, if the person you're negotiating with doesn't seriously believe you're ready to walk away they will never make concessions. It's also a curious feature of negotiating with French business people (like Barnier) that only when you lose your temper and shout at them do they actually seem to think "Oh, you're really serious about that". I've seen that in several business meetings. They seem to need a display of passion, and if the UK Brexit negotiators have been doing the classic British icily polite style of diplomacy it could well be misunderstood as a lack of determination or preparation.

                              I'm beginning to think that the best thing that could happen to make progress would be a handbagging, just have someone on the UK team blow up and state that either the EU gets its act together and starts negotiating on trade or we'll walk away witn no deal, and have the whole delegation just walk out of the room & get on a plane.

                              1. Roland6 Silver badge

                                Re: "what happens..native UK farming industry if..reduce import tariffs to 0?" " ...

                                >No, John Major did, when he signed up to Maastricht

                                Whilst you are legally correct, he was really only finishing off what Thatcher had started. [Aside: Although it is debatable whether Thatcher would have signed up to the version Major signed.] But agree the Maastricht Treaty was the start of our current mess with respect to the EU.

                                > It's also a curious feature of negotiating with French business people

                                Yes, I've always found it useful to get a Dutch person to front the negotiations with the French, they go so much better (ie. they agree to do more of what I want) than when the Brit's and French try and do it directly face-to-face.

                                >I'm beginning to think that the best thing that could happen to make progress would be a handbagging

                                Trouble is that Thatcher was probably the last UK politician who knew how to use a handbag, both on the Europeans and on her Cabinet...

                  2. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Why do we need to import anything...

                    >That is a really good question.

                    Well, we could ask the experts. Most economists think that our farming industry would not be able to compete with cheaper imports without increasing payments to them from the government.

                    But, you could argue that they are Remainers, so how about Patrick Minford who is one of the biggest advocates of zero tariffs. He reckons it will destroy the UK farming (and manufacturing) industries but the other industries will eventually do better.

                    Or maybe Pete North, who was very involved in the Leave campaign. He thinks it will be a disaster, as going to WTO would be. So do Leave.UK.

                    So, that doesn't actually leave many people that think reducing tariffs for food would be a good idea. Perhaps you have a Nobel prize in economics and could explain how it would work, because the experts seem fairly united in believing it won't.

                    Even if we did benefit in the short term from reducing the tariffs to zero for cheaper food it is doubtful that would happen over the long-term. Once we are entirely reliant on imports the importers can start increasing the prices. Long-term we are looking at significant food price increases.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Why do we need to import anything...

                      @AC

                      "Well, we could ask the experts. Most economists think that our farming industry would not be able to compete with cheaper imports without increasing payments to them from the government."

                      Ok. So we can either be forced to buy overpriced home grown (subsidy) or we all have cheaper food. And it is unlikely who whole farming market would collapse, they would likely do something productive that meets a need/desire that we are not forced to subsidise. This would also help poor countries better than our aid programs.

                      "as going to WTO would be"

                      I have yet to hear this disaster of WTO. Some people seem to think we have to charge the maximum tariffs or something but the WTO sets maximum tariffs. As discussed above the farming policy in the EU is protectionist, and of course to the detriment of the poor world who can supply that market cheaper.

                      "because the experts seem fairly united in believing it won't."

                      You gave 2 examples. 1 who thinks its a good idea, one who thinks its bad. If you count nobody as thinking its a good idea then you may need to reword your comment. Are we trying to support farmers or the population of the country? Are farmers more important than everyone else in this country? I dont consider them less important but I dont see how they are more important. We cant grow enough to support the population here. We import a great amount of our food.

                      "Even if we did benefit in the short term from reducing the tariffs to zero for cheaper food it is doubtful that would happen over the long-term. Once we are entirely reliant on imports the importers can start increasing the prices. Long-term we are looking at significant food price increases."

                      Well that doesnt work does it. China had the monopoly on rare earths so bumped up the price to take advantage. But it is a contestable monopoly and Australia took that monopoly away because they could do it cheaper than China would sell it. Same with oil prices now with OPEC and fracking. Are you telling me it is harder to restart agriculture if it becomes cost effective to do so? And since it would be raising the quality of life in the poorer countries that we can buy food from it would reduce the worlds poor and dying. Long term its a pretty good policy.

                2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

                  Re: Why do we need to import anything...

                  Just out of interest, but what happens to the native UK farming industry if we reduce import tariffs to 0?

                  Once it is free of all that Eu red-tape it will be free to export its straight bananas to the rest of the world.

  9. Smooth Newt
    Meh

    Food crisis

    I cannot help feeling that it might be a really good idea to buy in a year's supply of cans in time for Brexit day.

    That will cost maybe one or two thousand pounds, and if the Brexiteers are right then I'll get to eat the food over time anyway. But if, God forbid, all those economists are right and we don't enter this new golden age that the Brexiteers have promised, but instead see our economy collapse to Venezuelan standards, then at least I won't starve before I can get out of the country.

    1. Laura Kerr
      Thumb Up

      Re: Food crisis

      I'm thinking along the same lines. Also, I live on the top floor of an Edinburgh tenement, and I might start growing food on the roof.

    2. hplasm Silver badge
      Holmes

      Re: Food crisis

      Pragmatic- The more that leave, the more food left for those who do not...

    3. tiggity Silver badge

      Re: Food crisis

      And unlike Venezuela we do not even have large oil reserves remaining (just the last dregs of ours) to aid recovery at some point (not that Venezuela seem to be making good use of it but at least they have a bit of natural resource potential to exploit).

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Food crisis

        @ tiggity

        "And unlike Venezuela"

        On that note does Corbyn still think Venezuela is a socialist success?

  10. SolidSquid

    Because as everyone knows, the way to successfully implement a major IT overhaul is to rush it through as fast as possible because politicians haven't been able to get their shit together

    1. Haku

      It's almost like those morons in charge who campaigned to leave thought that Article 50 contained a complete & comprehensive guide on leaving the EU...

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        those morons in charge who campaigned to leave thought that Article 50 contained a complete & comprehensive guide

        I'm more surprised by the morons who seem to think that Leavers expected everything to be just perfect the day after we leave. Of course it won't be.

        Brexit will take years of hard work to undo the damage and establish a decent result, especially if the remainers just sit back saying "Told you so" instead of doing something constructive. At least those of us who never wanted to join the EU in the first place did our best to make it work, untill we could get out.

        Nothing worthwhile is ever easy, and sometimes you have to get out of your comfort zone to get some real improvements. Personally I think it will be worth it. We'll see.

        1. ZSn

          'At least those of us who never wanted to join the EU in the first place did our best to make it work, until we could get out.'

          No you didn't - all we heard was how bad the EU was and lies like they banned bendy bananas, while pushing for a referendum. We don't want to work to dig you out of the hole that you made. Suck it up - you won after all.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            @ ZSn

            "all we heard was how bad the EU was"

            Probably because it is

            "and lies like they banned bendy bananas"

            Thats a cute interpretation on the fact that the EU have made a criminal offence over the shape of a banana. One that will result in a fine and possibly 6 month jail.

            "while pushing for a referendum"

            A democratic vote we had never had about our membership of the EU. And once we got the democratic (if highly rigged by remain) vote it gave the 'wrong' answer and now remain want democracy scrapped.

            "We don't want to work to dig you out of the hole that you made"

            You do realise that this country is only as good as the people make it. So if your not willing to participate it is your country you are refusing to help. Surely thats cutting ones nose?

            "Suck it up - you won after all."

            Is that the taste of sour grapes?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: @ ZSn

              >Thats a cute interpretation on the fact that the EU have made a criminal offence over the shape of a banana. One that will result in a fine and possibly 6 month jail.

              The shape of a banana does not and cannot result in a criminal offence. The laws (of which there have been two) are relating to the labeling applied to the bananas for sale. It is an offence to categorize a banana incorrectly as class 1 when it is excessively bendy and should be class 2.

              1. Alt C

                Re: @ ZSn

                @AC don't bother - i've already explained in depth to codejunky the EU directive in question and how it reflelcted our own mislabling of goods act and the penalties associated with it - but he doesn't want to know or care so keeps of dragging up the bendy banana misrepresentation like all good brexiteers.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: @ ZSn

                  I haven't worked out if Codejunky is a genuine member of the Brexit Taliban, a WUM, or an AI attempting to pass the Turing Test by posing as one of the lower thinking members of society.

                  1. Alt C

                    Re: @ ZSn

                    having had discussions at length i'd go with the first option - though taliban is unwarented - I'd class him as a beliver in Laissez-faire and screw the proles

              2. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: @ ZSn

                @AC

                "It is an offence to categorize a banana incorrectly as class 1 when it is excessively bendy and should be class 2."

                Thank you for posting that. I hope you find it as funny as I do that the EU is concerned about bananas. Between that and dictating which fruits are correct to label the product jam (didnt one of these stupid laws effectively label a carrot a fruit as well?) I dont think they can get any funnier.

                1. Alt C

                  Re: @ ZSn

                  @codejunky

                  You mean like how we extensivly catagorise what everything is during trade negotiations to ensure everyone is working from a common understanding and framework?

                  Yes the UK had catgories for bananas before the EU directive.

                  I'm sure you will be looking forward to your chlorine washed chicken being described as farm fresh organic food?

                  I presume in your world caveat emptor is the only way to go?

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: @ ZSn

                    @ Alt C

                    "You mean like how we extensivly catagorise what everything is during trade negotiations to ensure everyone is working from a common understanding and framework?"

                    Oh how the world was in chaos and fell apart until.... the EU finally applied a law to bendy bananas. It wasnt a criminal issue before but the EU fixed the world as it put pen to paper and made me laugh as it dictated the shape of a banana. And now we all sing and dance now the worlds problems have finally been solved after all these years of previously not having a criminal law against the bent banana.

                    "Yes the UK had catgories for bananas before the EU directive."

                    Surely you are picking up on this by now. Catagory != criminal law. Criminal law != category.

                    "I'm sure you will be looking forward to your chlorine washed chicken being described as farm fresh organic food?"

                    Isnt that the one the EU food standards passed as perfectly fine? And the US? And I dont know of the UK food standards having a problem with it (I am sure every remoaner would have screamed about it if so). So if a good chunk of the developed world food standards agencies think its ok I could listen to the experts or I could listen to.... dont you guys like experts? Or is it only when they tell you what you want to hear? I lay bets you consume things far worse than chlorine washed chicken.

                    "I presume in your world caveat emptor is the only way to go?"

                    I presume by that you are declaring your rejection of food standards agencies. The very agencies who approve this food and you consider that caveat emptor. Go on please do explain.

                    1. Alt C

                      Re: @ ZSn

                      Surely you are picking up on this by now. Catagory != criminal law. Criminal law != category.

                      let me explain

                      it was an offence to mis-catagorise bananas and sell them. In the UK selling class B bananas as class A was an offence exactly the same as it is under the EU directive.

                      I never said anything about not agreeing with food standards please read again.

                      "I'm sure you will be looking forward to your chlorine washed chicken being described as farm fresh organic food?"

                      the key words there are 'being described as' - i.e. passing one product off as another - its what these regulations you find so funny stop happening.

                      I'll ignore rest of the rant as the usual tangental argument brexiteers indulge in.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: @ ZSn

                        @ Alt C

                        "it was an offence to mis-catagorise bananas and sell them. In the UK selling class B bananas as class A was an offence exactly the same as it is under the EU directive."

                        I direct you and the others above including ZSn who didnt believe it was true-

                        https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/05/12/to-properly-explain-the-eus-bendy-bananas-rules-yes-theyre-real/#74db7ce96fc9

                        To make it clear this started with a lack of belief that this law existed and now having to tell you about the law your defending.

                        "I never said anything about not agreeing with food standards please read again."

                        So what is your argument about the chicken? Or do you assume it wont be labelled as such because the EU wont be singing you to bed every night?

                        "the key words there are 'being described as' - i.e. passing one product off as another - its what these regulations you find so funny stop happening."

                        No no no you have already said and I requote- "it was an offence to mis-catagorise bananas and sell them. In the UK selling class B bananas as class A was an offence exactly the same as it is under the EU directive." which I assume you meant mis-selling regulations which surely apply further than bananas since its the EU who criminalised bendy bananas and we thought they were nuts for it.

                        "I'll ignore rest of the rant as the usual tangental argument brexiteers indulge in."

                        You do usually I am used to it. I do find yours entertaining though.

                        @ H in The Hague

                        "Mate, I don't know where you get your idea that all bureaucracy comes from the EU."

                        Mate I dont know where you get your idea that I think that.

                        "The only upside I can see to Brexit is that when the powers that be can no longer blame stuff on Brussels, folk might realise that rather a lot of red tape (some of it useful, some of it not) is entirely homegrown."

                        I actually hope this does cause a cut in our red tape. An amount from the EU, an amount of bad implementation of EU ideas and plenty home grown.

                        "And as far as produce description (= consumer protection) legislation is concerned, the UK used to have that in the past too, and hopefully will still have it in future."

                        Tell Alt C that. He seems to think it is all going.

                2. H in The Hague Silver badge

                  Re: @ ZSn

                  "I hope you find it as funny as I do that the EU is concerned about bananas."

                  Mate, I don't know where you get your idea that all bureaucracy comes from the EU. In the fields I'm familiar with (health and safety, and planning permission) the UK's rules are much more restrictive and detailed than here in NL, while not being anymore effective. E.g. the planning permission I got here in The Hague for a construction project in a conservation area is much shorter and less prescriptive than the planning permission for a little house on a bit of wasteland in Sussex (e.g. that includes requirements for the garden design and type of plants). And it's not just government, industry has form too: the UK CSCS construction site safety passport system is much more convoluted than the VCA system used in NL (and also BE and GER I think) while providing no more safety. (And yes, I've got both the CSCS and VCA cards.) The only upside I can see to Brexit is that when the powers that be can no longer blame stuff on Brussels, folk might realise that rather a lot of red tape (some of it useful, some of it not) is entirely homegrown. And as far as produce description (= consumer protection) legislation is concerned, the UK used to have that in the past too, and hopefully will still have it in future.

            2. ZSn

              Re: @ ZSn

              'Thats a cute interpretation on the fact that the EU have made a criminal offence over the shape of a banana. One that will result in a fine and possibly 6 month jail.'

              Link to the relevant law please - not the Daily Heil.

              'A democratic vote we had never had about our membership of the EU. And once we got the democratic (if highly rigged by remain) vote it gave the 'wrong' answer and now remain want democracy scrapped.'

              And the xenophobic lies peddled by Goveno etc are not rigged - 350 million anyone?

              How about another referendum then, or is democracy only correct when it gives the 'correct' answer, and then we can't change our mind afterwards?

              'You do realise that this country is only as good as the people make it. So if your not willing to participate it is your country you are refusing to help. Surely thats cutting ones nose?'

              If the country allows xenophobia and racism to grow like this then frankly it needs to get Brexit good and hard.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: @ ZSn

                @ ZSn

                "Link to the relevant law please - not the Daily Heil."

                Sod that go talk to the 2 remainers above who are trying to defend this law. Apparently its about the label on the bendy banana not the bendy banana being labelled. Makes you wonder how the world spins without a law for it.

                "And the xenophobic lies peddled by Goveno etc are not rigged - 350 million anyone?"

                No thats not rigging that is lying. I dont defend his lying so feel free to tear into him. However the gov campaigning for a particular outcome (also the opposite outcome as the PM stated he would be backing, not that the gov should have campaigned) is rigging. Using tax payer money to do so is also rigging. Refusing to accept the possibility of an alternative (nobody but the gov had the power to negotiate with the EU for leave) is rigging. And of course the direct threat the chancellor made to the population with a budget that was designed to sink an economy and had no practical purpose beyond that. Thats rigging.

                "How about another referendum then, or is democracy only correct when it gives the 'correct' answer, and then we can't change our mind afterwards?"

                Sure. Why not. Of course after would be after we have left, had time to implement it, and by the argument of remain it will take years to sort this out so after that too. And if you can elect a party willing to sell the country to the EU which will require accepting the Euro and none of the opt outs then sure. If the EU is still around at that time

                "If the country allows xenophobia and racism to grow like this then frankly it needs to get Brexit good and hard."

                You are right. What the EU does to those poor countries is horrible, locking them out of trade. And the remainers comments about needing to be in the EU or be subjects of the horrible US or China does seem very anti-foreigner and fearing the world.

                I know thats not what you ment but if you wish to suggest leavers are racist then it is just as valid to do the same to remainers.

                1. Alt C

                  Re: @ ZSn

                  Sod that go talk to the 2 remainers above who are trying to defend this law. Apparently its about the label on the bendy banana not the bendy banana being labelled. Makes you wonder how the world spins without a law for it.

                  Please just stop - we had the same fsking law in the UK before the EU directive - how many more times?

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: @ ZSn

                    @ Alt C

                    "Please just stop - we had the same fsking law in the UK before the EU directive - how many more times?"

                    We had a criminal law in the UK before the EU criminalised it? We criminalised the shape of a banana before the EU criminalised the shape of a banana?

            3. Bodge99

              Re: @ ZSn

              I'm totally sick and tired of all of the anti EU rubbish that is spoken..

              Try http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ for info on "bendy bananas".

              Brexit - We are truly fu&ked !

            4. Christoph Silver badge

              Re: @ ZSn

              "A democratic vote we had never had about our membership of the EU."

              Apart from this one, you mean?

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: @ ZSn

                @ Christoph

                "Apart from this one, you mean?"

                Exactly, the EU didnt exist then, that was a vote for something different. Thanks for making my point but it wasnt necessary, this ground has been covered many times.

              2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                Re: @ ZSn

                Apart from this one, you mean?

                That was a vote to remain in the European Economic Community (EEC), otherwise known as the Common Market. The political entity called the EU wasn't created until almost 20 years after that, and there was no UK vote to join it. Only one to remain in it, which resulted in a choice of "leave".

          2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

            all we heard was how bad the EU was and lies like they banned bendy bananas,

            If that's all you heard you have very selective hearing.

            The old common market (whose banana policies were replaced by the EU, FYI) worked pretty well. It solved a real post-war need. The EU brought in an unwanted and unecessary political dimension, purely to satisfy the vanity of politicians. Even the French barely agreed to join, we wouldn't have had we been asked (which is why John Major didn't ask).

            Since the EU was created we've seen a drop in growth, a monetary system stumbling from crisis to crisis, and a massive Europe-wide increase in support for extremist and populist parties from people who see mainstream politics as offering no alternatives. If it goes on like that it will implode, messily.

            Leaving is a drastic solution, it's a great pity that it became necessary and it will be painful, but at least we'll have a chance of a better future.

            We don't want to work to dig you out of the hole that you made.

            Fine, we'll do the digging for you, and maybe your kids will appreciate it. In the meantime it would be good if you at least wouldn't throw the dirt back in.

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "Brexit will take years of hard work to undo the damage "

          of Brexit

          FTFY.

          "Personally I think it will be worth it. We'll see."

          And if not you're retired on a good pension already, so who cares, eh?

          1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
            Thumb Down

            Re: "Brexit will take years of hard work to undo the damage "

            "Personally I think it will be worth it. We'll see."

            And if not you're retired on a good pension already, so who cares, eh?

            Nope, I'm still working, and plan to return to the UK when I do l retire, so I care very much.

            1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              Unhappy

              "Nope, I'm still working, and plan to return to the UK when I do l retire, "

              How interesting. Were you abroad when you voted?

              I found it very telling that the Scottish Independence Referendum let almost anyone living in Scotland vote.

              Because those people would mostly likely have to live with the consequences of their decision.

              But you don't live in the UK. For you "Britain" is actually more a place inside your head, whose climate you don't experience and whose taxes (it appears) you don't pay.

              I've often wondered how many UK elections have been decided by absentee "subjects" whose actual knowledge of the country is decades out of date.

              1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                Re: "Nope, I'm still working, and plan to return to the UK when I do l retire, "

                But you don't live in the UK. For you "Britain" is actually more a place inside your head, whose climate you don't experience and whose taxes (it appears) you don't pay.

                You really shouldn't make assumptions on things you know nothing about. I spend part of each year in the UK with my family and pay UK taxes on my UK income. I've spent more than half my life there so am very familiar with the climate.

                I've often wondered how many UK elections have been decided by absentee "subjects" whose actual knowledge of the country is decades out of date.

                Not as many as have been decided by people who have lived there all their life and still don't have a clue about the world beyond their own town, let alone lived in other countries to really understand how the world works.

  11. Mystic Megabyte Silver badge
    Unhappy

    What a disaster

    But after the bigly trade deal with Trump all the sub-standard USA food products will just fly through customs with no problems. We are screwed.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A week after the Brexit vote I was round at a friends who had voted leave (I voted stay), watching tv and when the news came on after a few seconds he said he was sick of this Brexit thing and switched over, which left me with two thoughts - "I dunno what you're complaining about, you voted for this shit", and "it's not going away no matter how many times you change channels"

    1. Teiwaz Silver badge

      Vote now?

      he said he was sick of this Brexit thing and switched over,

      I know a few people with that attitude. Despite their talk, they never bothered to go out and vote.

      I know too many who professed wanting to stay in the EU, none of them bothered to vote either.

    2. codejunky Silver badge

      @AC

      "he said he was sick of this Brexit thing and switched over"

      Is that not a valid reaction? So far we have voted leave and had almost every day some moaning twit complain we should remain (either here or from the EU). There is always some doom sayer who will predict fire and brimstone, I assume some are the same who shout about god on street corners considering the fanaticism. Nearly 20 yrs to finally get the vote and the day after the result we hear of many ways to ignore the people, ditch democracy and declare anyone voting leave as idiots.

      And we havnt even left yet.

      1. Rich 11 Silver badge

        Re: @AC

        What you see as moaning and doom-saying others see as practical problems which desperately need to be solved.

        A year ago I wouldn't have said 'desperately'. After watching this debacle unfold it now strikes me as perhaps too mild an adverb.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @AC

          @ Rich 11

          "A year ago I wouldn't have said 'desperately'. After watching this debacle unfold it now strikes me as perhaps too mild an adverb."

          The doom saying is not practical problems, its idiots trying to look incompetent or bone-headed to stop us from leaving.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            @codejunky

            His changing channels was not because of watching the complainers, but the news basically saying over and over in many different ways for days on end "Brexit is happening, but nobody in the leave campaign even thought about making plans if they won and they don't know what to do now." Well, apart from that Nigel "bin juice" Farage who had obviously planned to quit no matter which way the vote went.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: @codejunky

              @AC

              "His changing channels was not because of watching the complainers, but the news basically saying over and over in many different ways for days on end "Brexit is happening, but nobody in the leave campaign even thought about making plans if they won"

              So as I said. watching complainers who keep trying to get in the way of brexit.

              "Farage who had obviously planned to quit no matter which way the vote went"

              He didnt. He pissed off the EU by turning up as an elected MEP and bursting their bubble. It was funny to watch. Junkers face was a picture when he asked the dumb question of why Farage was there now that we had voted leave. I hoped the collective noise of remainers would rise up and say 'we aint left yet'.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: @codejunky

                "So as I said. watching complainers who keep trying to get in the way of brexit."

                I don't see how people airing their views on the mess the leavers have created is "trying to get in the way of brexit."

                "He pissed off the EU by turning up as an elected MEP and bursting their bubble. It was funny to watch."

                Yes, hilarious. So much so I was in danger of splitting my sides, which could've been life threatening if it weren't for that extra £350m/week the NHS are now getting.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @codejunky

                  @AC

                  "I don't see how people airing their views on the mess the leavers have created is "trying to get in the way of brexit.""

                  Thats fine, that is the expected as we get with elections as we let off steam about a result we dont like. But legal challenges to stop the result being carried out is. As is unelected party members undermining the government. As is elected party members undermining the government. Add the ongoing propaganda campaign and constant misinformation (just read what I have been replying to on this topic) with repeated attempts to get a second referendum to undo the not yet implemented result of the previous referendum. Those are attempts to get in the way of brexit. We knew the referendum had the possibility of leave when it was proposed yet right now is this customs issue. Why? Is it the gov or civil service dragging their feet on this? And why? The result is known, hard brexit is very well expected so why?

                  "Yes, hilarious. So much so I was in danger of splitting my sides, which could've been life threatening if it weren't for that extra £350m/week the NHS are now getting."

                  The official leave campaign was almost as bad as the official remain campaign I know. What has that to do with Farage? He didnt campaign on that, the £350m could be given to the NHS was the official campaigns claim.

                  1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

                    Re: @codejunky

                    "the £350m could be given to the NHS was the official campaigns claim"

                    Yes, but that's not true either. (And to be more correct, the campaign didn't use the word "could".)

                    No more true than stating that unicorns COULD arrive tomorrow.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: @codejunky

                      @ anonymous boring coward

                      "Yes, but that's not true either. (And to be more correct, the campaign didn't use the word "could".)"

                      I know. It was the usual politician speak or also known as duping the electorate. Its in a similar vain as Carney and Osborne claiming that everything the UK has been trying to achieve since 2008 is suddenly bad. Both official campaigns were awful.

              2. Roland6 Silver badge

                Re: @codejunky

                @Codejunky - He pissed off the EU by turning up as an elected MEP and bursting their bubble. It was funny to watch. Junkers face was a picture when he asked the dumb question of why Farage was there now that we had voted leave.

                I saw that performance - it demonstrated just how stupid he was!

                If you look back at the fundamental issue - which Farage campaigned on for many years, it was a UK domestic issue, namely Parliament (potentially?) going beyond its remit and signing up to the various EU treaties without gaining the consent(?) of the British electorate. He also accepted the 1975 referendum result and thus wanted a trade agreement with the EU.

                In this situation, the EU was a potential friend to Farage! Played correctly Farage could have got the EU on his side and laughing at the clowns in Westminster and negotiated a favourable deal whilst the UK sorts it's "mother of Parliaments" out. Instead, with this act, he both diminished himself and the UK and soured the atmosphere for the Brexit negotiations.

            2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              Unhappy

              "apart from..Nigel.. Farage.. obviously planned to quit no matter which way the vote went."

              Well there you go then.

              Planning sorted. *

              *Actually I think they believed the Brexit fairy would wave her magic wand and it would all magically sort itself out.

              Well how would you explain doing f**k all planning, other than positing the existence of a magical supernatural being with vast powers to sort out such a colossal s**tstorm ?

          2. Alt C

            Re: @AC

            @codejunky - i'll take a leap here and guess you voted condervative - in which case its your bone headed idiots who can't seem to negotiate or get it into their heads - we left the club the EU owes us no favours. its David and his crew that are being incompetent with their rainbows and unicorn wish list.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: @AC

              @ Alt C

              "i'll take a leap here and guess you voted condervative"

              Good leap but no. I dont hold a grudge for you trying.

              "can't seem to negotiate or get it into their heads - we left the club the EU owes us no favours"

              You know what I absolutely agree. Seriously, I am not impressed with the governments faffing over this. If the EU doesnt want to negotiate we cannot force them to unless we conquer them (obv not going to happen) and by the same right we owe the EU nothing unless they wish to conquer us (again not going to happen). This is where both sides are free to negotiate or not as they deem fit, and the EU has made 3 non-negotiable demands that we reject, so no negotiation, nobody owes anybody anything. Unfortunately some muppets (PM included) keep going over to try and make a negotiation happen.

              "David and his crew that are being incompetent with their rainbows and unicorn wish list."

              Not sure about that. I havnt followed him particularly but our side of the negotiations seem to have been pretty friendly considering the EU negotiator isnt allowed to negotiate. Hell our side even proposed some solutions to EU problems (the Irish border for example and the bill the EU wants).

              I lay the blame on those in gov who reject brexit and seek to undermine it. Even Clegg and Corbyn have been accused of trying to make agreements to remain which is not only fanciful but also undermines the actual working parts of the government trying to make brexit happen.

      2. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

        Re: @AC

        @codejunky

        There is always some doom sayer who will predict fire and brimstone

        But when the doom sayer is standing on top of Vesuvius, with the ground rumbling, shaking and making odd noises, and farts of sulphurous gas filling the air, is it not possible that doom is really very, very likely to be coming?

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @AC

          @ Pen-y-gors

          "But when the doom sayer is standing on top of Vesuvius, with the ground rumbling, shaking and making odd noises, and farts of sulphurous gas filling the air, is it not possible that doom is really very, very likely to be coming?"

          Hell yeah. But in this case they are shouting it in the UK after they let out a little fart. Very different.

  13. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Holmes

    "A failed customs system could lead to huge disruption for businesses,"

    Indeed. Who could have foreseen that (see icon) ?

    What are the two things we know about all government specific IT systems?

    1) The rules they have to implement are under constant change. From Ministers, lobbyists, the EU, the WTO etc etc.

    2) Outsourced IT seem to go for the most rigid system they can with the most amount of rules hard coded in the logic.

    We all know why they do this. It means more change requests which normally (because they pretty much wrote the contract, not the UKG) means more money,

    Admittedly this one will be tougher because it's a)Got a hard deadline and b)The rules being moved to are (literally) unknown. Nope. Not a clue. Somewhere between current (but not exactly) rule set and up to (and including) full WTO tariffs.

    In fact I'm not sure if the current rules implemented within CHIEFS (in ICL 4GL dating from the 70's) are fully documented.

    But that doesn't matter because the UK is "Taking Back Control (C Linton Kwesi Crosby 2017) and because deep down..

    <gollum>

    We wants it

    We needs it.

    We must have hard brexit

    </gollum>

    1. Admiral Grace Hopper

      Re: "A failed customs system could lead to huge disruption for businesses,"

      In fact I'm not sure if the current rules implemented within CHIEFS (in ICL 4GL dating from the 70's) are fully documented.

      But surely one of the selling points of ApplicationMaster was that it was self-documenting if used correctly?

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        IT Angle

        "But surely..selling point of ApplicationMaster.. was self-documenting if used correctly?"

        Which of course begs the question was it used correctly?

        I don't know what ApplicationMaster is capable of as I was not on the project, as I had not been conceived at the time it was built.

  14. unwarranted triumphalism

    Remainers need to explain...

    what they're going to do about this gigantic mess they've landed us in. No sign of one yet...

    1. Laura Kerr

      Re: Remainers need to explain...

      Remainers need to explain? What, exactly? Remainers didn't cause this problem - Brexiteers did.

      1. unwarranted triumphalism

        Re: Remainers need to explain...

        They should have made more of an effort.

        1. Laura Kerr
          Thumb Down

          Re: Remainers need to explain...

          I was going to answer that in some depth, but after a look through the comments you've plastered all over El Reg, I think it would be pointless to even try to get through to you.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: Remainers need to explain...

            @Laura Kerr - I took the original comment as sarcasm. Referencing the tendency of Leave voters to not take responsibility and blame everyone else, especially those who voted Remain, but not themselves for the current state-of-affairs. So u-t was just getting in before the crowd.

            1. Laura Kerr

              Re: Remainers need to explain...

              My bad, I took it seriously - I've obviously been reading too many comments on the BBC website. Pity spEak You're bRanes is no longer with us.

              1. ZSn

                Re: Remainers need to explain...

                In which case I suggest that you never read the comments section of the Daily Mail. It'll cause an aneurysm. It's over there on the right - the far right.

              2. Roland6 Silver badge

                Re: Remainers need to explain...

                >I've obviously been reading too many comments on the BBC website.

                Totally understand - it is scary reading the comments on the BBC and other websites; are people really as stupid as their comments make them appear?

                Mind you occasionally, you do get some real gems.

    2. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

      Re: Remainers need to explain...

      Simplest option is to book 17 million seats on Ryanair to Port Stanley, or failing that convert our aircraft carriers to cattle boats for the trip. Then we have another referendum and withdraw A50. Everyone's happy.

  15. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    There is a fall back: just wave stuff through unchecked. It should also solve the Irish border problem.

    1. H in The Hague Silver badge

      "There is a fall back: just wave stuff through unchecked. It should also solve the Irish border problem."

      Ermm, then you've got even more of a single market than as a member of the EU. Not sure that's quite the idea behind Brexit.

      Anyway, if by that time the UK's trading under WTO arrangements it won't be possible to wave stuff from the EU through unchecked as that would give preferential treatment to EU goods, which is against WTO rules. Then you would have to wave all imports, from all countries, through. In which case the UK steel industry will be killed off instantly by Chinese imports, to give just one example. And it would deprive the UK government of revenue from import duties.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        @H

        Eventually pragmatism takes over. You've got several boatloads of HGVs in Dover harbour all queuing for clearance, all available berths occupied by ferries that haven't yet discharged because there's no room for them to do so and another approaching. What do you do. Wave them onto the A2 and tell them to park until you get round to them? Then tell them to move up a bit further? On to the M2? What happens when the queue gets to the M25? At some point you have to realise that you're never going to be able to process stuff and stop pretending you can. You just check 1 in N as some sort of gesture.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Would these be european lorries with european drivers?

          Would they be licensed to operate in the UK?

          Better hurry up, you have <18 months to agree a deal about which commercial driving licenses apply cross border and what standards trucks have to meet.

          1. H in The Hague Silver badge

            "Better hurry up, you have <18 months to agree a deal ..."

            Not sure, but I think that's dealt with by the UN Economic Commission for Europe

            https://www.unece.org/info/ece-homepage.html

            Incidentally, unlike the EU, this body does not have a parliament directly elected by citizens of the member states. And it probably employs lots of unelected bureaucrats too :) Now, what was that about Taking back Control? Another referendum to leave the UN? (https://www.unece.org/mission.html : UNECE's major aim is to promote pan-European economic integration.)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      There is a fall back: just wave stuff through unchecked

      Worked for the US when Bill Clinton didn't get round to signing the continuation of the visa waiver scheme, for many months people were allowed in without visas on their own recognisance.

  16. TrumpSlurp the Troll Silver badge
    Trollface

    Loan/rent Kent to the EU

    Then you can have a massive staging area with distributed customs clearance centres along both sides of the M2/A2 and also a working model for a soft border which would then be applicable to Ireland.

    Do it all on paper, then key it in later.

    Remember, people, there's a war on!

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Loan/rent Kent to the EU

      Genius.

  17. Mr Dogshit

    Yes, but

    it will be worth it to regain our sovereignty.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wait a second. Where's the balance?

    Do the EU/France have the customs system in place to deal with brexit?

    Surely if we are having problems then they will as well.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      >Do the EU/France have the customs system in place to deal with brexit?

      A bit of an issue of scale. We require 1 system for all our trade with France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Ireland, Denmark, etc. They require one system per country for a portion of our trade. If one (or more) of their systems fail, it does not affect trade to the other countries. If ours fail, we have a major problem.

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Do the EU/France have the customs system in place to deal with brexit?

      No - so they could be denied timely deliveries of English wine

  19. Pete4000uk

    Panic not

    I'm sure Crapita or some other group will turn up to bodge it for a sky high price

  20. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    On a less contentious note

    Does this mean we can top all this metric nonsense and go back to proper units ?

    1. H in The Hague Silver badge

      Re: On a less contentious note

      No, metrication started in the 1970s or so, that was separate from EC/EU stuff. Incidentally industry is almost entirely metric now - would you like to force them to go back? And which proper units do you mean? E.g. the English-imperialist acre or the noble Scottish oxgang?

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: On a less contentious note

        But this wasn't about the Eu - it was about taking back control and being able to negotiate with the USA as equals.

        Although the DUP may insist on adopting the cubit as YHVH intended

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Optional title

    So we had a referendum and one side won. Now the losing side (mainly millennials if we believe the statistics) can't cope. I'm heartily sick of the constant whingeing of the millennials about Brexit. Maybe it's because our education system insisted that everyone wins in case someone gets upset and doesn't like it. So people are struggling to cope with not getting the answer they wanted. They go on and on like Private Fraser in Dad's Army "we're doomed, we're all doomed", or Senna in Up Pompeii "woe, woe and thrice woe" (showing my age there). My wife says there are two types of people, glass half full and glass half empty. I counter that there's a third, those that can't even find the bl00dy glass.

    Please get a grip. The vote was to leave, we're leaving. Please try to find just a bit of positivity. Go on say it "I'm positive it will be a disaster". Thank you Private Fraser (stupid boy).

    Further I object most strongly the the oft mooted Brexiters are all senile racists line.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Optional title

      Your reference points mark you right in the core demographics for an old person, which of course means that you're statistically likely to be in favour of Brexit even if you aren't senile. Also you are waving your walking stick at "millenials" as though you know what the word means, but "young people" in this situation is anyone under fifty, which is not just millenials by any stretch.

      Not all Leave voters are racist, but all the racists voted leave.

      So you may not all be senile racists, but you're certainly senile-adjacent and evidently content to be in racist company.

    2. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

      Re: Optional title

      Further I object most strongly the the oft mooted Brexiters are all senile racists line.

      I agree, that's totally untrue. There aren't 17 million senile racists in the country. How about we say "Brexiteers are almost all senile and/or racists" It's the only way to account for a lemming-like urge to commit national suicide.

      Remainers will continue to fight to save our country from the insanity of the Quitlings.

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "(showing my age there)."

      Only if you saw them in the original B&W.

      Which I rather think you did.

      "Further I object most strongly the the oft mooted Brexiters are all senile racists line."

      That was more an impression of all those Daily Heil editorials and the Leave leadership I think.

      There really was something quite funny about people who didn't want furriners wanting to bar Europeans but happy to have a whole load more of a whole lot more darker skinned folk from the former colonies. Utterly non-sensical to the point of delusion.

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: "(showing my age there)."

        @ John Smith 19

        "That was more an impression of all those Daily Heil editorials and the Leave leadership I think."

        I am amazed you think 52% of the population get their information from that one paper. What paper do you read that tells you that?

        "There really was something quite funny about people who didn't want furriners wanting to bar Europeans but happy to have a whole load more of a whole lot more darker skinned folk from the former colonies. Utterly non-sensical to the point of delusion."

        I agree. And again I only ever hear these arguments from racists (rarely hear them) and remainers (scarily frequent). I have been concerned since the referendum that both these groups would get together with a common cause to close up the UK, one thinking its for our own good and one to watch the country burn.

    4. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

      Re: Optional title

      "I object most strongly the the oft mooted Brexiters are all senile"

      Ironically, you seem to confirm that.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The Pensioners

    I never quite understand why no-one has noticed that the many UK pensioners in Spain spend their pensions in Spain. There is no way the Spanish will throw them out, It would decimate their service industries in the nice warm Mediterranean areas, or maybe they don't think they have enough unemployment? Plus, all that pension cash would be spent in the UK.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: The Pensioners

      And it's not like pensioners run up expensive health care costs.

  23. codejunky Silver badge

    Finally

    Good news for leave voters. The EU is finally coming around to the fact that we are leaving. While they seem to have been slow on the uptake they appear to realise we will not be in the EU and therefore not under the EU (who would have thought leave would mean that?!? Apart from anyone with a brain).

    https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-trade-barnier-dashes-britains-hopes-of-something-better-than-canada-deal/

    Even more unsurprising (I would hope) the EU is starting to realise that trade is a mutual thing and an FTA would be a good idea. They now think a Canada style standard FTA might be the way to go.

    I guess now we just have to see how long it takes for this realisation to be translated into giving their negotiators the freedom to negotiate.

  24. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Coat

    Welcome to Kent, formerly the "Garden of England"

    Now the "Truck Park of Britain."

    Please switch off your engines ASAP and make your way to one of the designated Customs Offices/Short stay motels.

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