back to article Telstra drops nbn™ in it as it wears compo for broadband speed ads

Telstra has all-but-blamed nbn™, the company building and operating Australia's national broadband network (NBN), for having to compensate customers who can't experience broadband speeds the carrier advertised. Telstra will compensate 42,000 customers after the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) took it to …

  1. j.p

    good reason why many subscribers would be opting for the cheap tier, cause they'll never get the speed of the expensive ones, and they don't want to have to chase refunds etc...

    could be my shitty understanding of the nbn connection model, but i see 4 outcomes;

    1 RSPs forced to provision more capacity per subscriber (if capacity exists)

    2 carriers dodge the issue by changing plans and advertising to qualitative (high - med - low) tiers rather than quantitative (100, 50, 25mbps) tiers

    3 nbn technology changes to legitimately offer subscribers >25/50/100mbps of throughput as advertised

    4 nothing changes in spite of ACCC complaints because aussies are too complacent to bother chasing a solution.

    got buckley's chance of no. 3, because nbn has settled on the cheaper MTM ostensibly because the 'fancy network' was voted out with the 'fancy network' government.

    my money's on no. 4

    1. BlackKnight(markb)

      NBN started with a FTTP to 95% of the population, new govt chose to redesign it mid rollout to stop all Brownfield FTTP and reutilise the copper to save money (the very crappy copper).

      NBN FTTN is a VDSL2 service over copper or HFC both designs deployed fixed wireless and satelite to regional ares

      1 difficult to do mostly a problem because consumers arent paying for the 50 - 100mbps speed tiers

      2 Telstra is basically doing this already

      3 this would require the current pm and previous communications minister (mal turnbul) to admit he was wrong.... it would also be a huge cost to go back out to all FTTN sites and roll out FTTP instead.

      4 nothing changes because our pollies have spent the last 10 years playing "thats not a knife" (howard was the last full PM to actually serve his full term)

      1. david 12 Silver badge

        3 this would require

        This would require posters to recognise that it's not the FTTN that's the problem.

        1. Vid

          Re: 3 this would require

          Which of course it is...

      2. mathew42
        FAIL

        consumers arent paying for the 50 - 100mbps speed tiers

        The congestion has nothing to do with speed tiers. The primary cause is RSPs selling plans with unlimited quotas and purchasing 1Mbps of CVC per user.

        1. Vid

          Congestion isn't the only problem...6-8% on FTTN couldn't get over 25MBPS (and often not even that high) even if they had a 1:1 ratio.

    2. mathew42
      FAIL

      Speed tier take-up is similar across technologies

      good reason why many subscribers would be opting for the cheap tier, cause they'll never get the speed of the expensive ones

      >80% were on 25Mbps or slower when the network was entirely FTTP. The ACCC NBNCo Wholesale Market Indicators report shows this has increased to 84% and the take-up is similar across all fixed line technologies. So in terms of many, that would be <16%.

      If 14% of Telstra's customers were impacted then that would give them a total number of customers on FTTN at 300,000 which is around a third of active FTTN connections. Except that is wrong because at the end of Jun Telstra had 532,805 FTTN connections, which means it is less than 8% of connections.

      This is not surprising when NBNCo stated in August that the average FTTN speed is 68Mbps and 65% can achieve 50Mbps or faster.

      1. Jasonk

        Re: Speed tier take-up is similar across technologies

        " Except that is wrong because at the end of Jun Telstra had 532,805 FTTN connections"

        NBN at the end of may had 631,111 active FTTN connection. so if Telstra has 50% market share works out to be 300,000

        But then 56% of Telstra customers on 100Mbps can not get 100Mbps. 26% on 100mbps or 50Mbps can get those speeds. Hell there are even customers that cant get min 25Mbps or even the 12Mbps you have claimed nbn has to deliver

        1. mathew42
          FAIL

          Re: Speed tier take-up is similar across technologies

          > But then 56% of Telstra customers on 100Mbps can not get 100Mbps.

          Interesting number, but the reality is that for Telstra only 14% of their customers are willing to pay for 100Mbps.

          > Hell there are even customers that cant get min 25Mbps or even the 12Mbps you have claimed nbn has to deliver

          Agreed. 6% last time the numbers were published. NBNCo are expecting significant improvement 18 months after an area is ready for service and non NBN connections are disconnected.

          1. Jasonk

            Re: Speed tier take-up is similar across technologies

            Interesting number, but the reality is that for Telstra only 14% of their customers are willing to pay for 100Mbps.

            In reality 56% of customer willing to pay for higher spends cant get those speeds so much for your 68% claim. But then in reality fttn isnt even in the double digits % for 100Mbps.

            You know that during the 18mth nbn is required to deliver 12mbps which some people cant get.

      2. Vid

        Re: Speed tier take-up is similar across technologies

        And 35% can't even get 50Mbps as a peak speed no matter what the congestion...that's more than 1 in 3 customers! 6-8% can't even get 25Mbps most of the time, and again that has nothing to do with the RSPs in any way.

  2. Winkypop Silver badge
    FAIL

    Nationally Buggered Network

    Yes Minister

  3. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge
    Devil

    Absolutely Beautiful

    "it is not possible to accurately determine what speed the NBN can deliver to a customer prior to connection"

    Those poor dears. Telstra can swivel. How do they like the shoe being on the other foot?

    1. Phil Kingston

      Re: Absolutely Beautiful

      Now if only nbn had rolled out something more predictable, like say, fttp.

  4. mathew42
    Happy

    NBN should remove speed tiers on FTTN & FTTB

    The simplest way for NBNCo to respond is to remove the speed tiers on FTTN & FTTB and charge the 12Mbps rate. Hopefully RSPs would invest the savings in more CVC, but I doubt it.

    1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

      Re: NBN should remove speed tiers on FTTN & FTTB

      iiNet operates a VDSL2 network on which it operates two pricing tiers, best effort ("up to" 80 Mb/s) and 30 Mb/s.

      Something similar to that would be reasonable, I think.

  5. JJKing Silver badge
    WTF?

    Govt. - "There's a problem, quick everyone, bury your head in the sand".

    The congestion has nothing to do with speed tiers.

    Then why do those with FTTP seem to have minimal, if any, complaints about speed/congestion?

    I would figuratively kill to get a 100/40 connection (that would have been upgradeable to 1000/400? in a few years) but I am 394 metres from the Node as the rotting copper runs. Add a further 15 metres from the pit in the driveway to the first point inside the house and I will be struggling to get 50/20. Fibre would not have given me this issue.

    The fibre pipe to the Node is limited when compared to the fibre pipe to the exchange. We have 350 off houses to feed off our Node so divide that bandwidth amongst all those houses and how much do we each get Mr Ashwood? We get congestion not due to insufficient CVC but due to insufficient bandwidth to the bloody Node.

    You keep blaming Labor for the CVC "debacle" but considering that Labour haven't been in power for 4+ years then surely we can now blame the present clowns for not fixing that particular issue. Next you will be blaming that idiot Bob Hawke for children still living in poverty when howard and his minions did nothing to eradicate that particular problem during his long tenure.

    1. mathew42
      FAIL

      Re: Govt. - "There's a problem, quick everyone, bury your head in the sand".

      > I would figuratively kill to get a 100/40 connection (that would have been upgradeable to 1000/400?

      So you expected to be in the <1% that Labor expected would be able to afford 1Gbps in 2026? If so then the cost of technology change shouldn't be of concern. To be on a 100Mbps plan puts you in the top 14% of Australia.

      Does knowing that speed tiers have denied 84% on 25Mbps or slower the minimum recommended speed of 100Mbps for the eHealth & eLearning applications that Labor used as justification for building the NBN concern you? If you are happy with speed tiers then expect to move or pay more for the fast speeds that only a small minority can afford.

      > We get congestion not due to insufficient CVC but due to insufficient bandwidth to the bloody Node.

      Do you have actual evidence of this claim? Getting the balance right on building the nbn™ network states that for FTTP 3000 premises are served by 10Gbps, while for FTTN, 384 premises are served by 2Gbps and this could easily be upgraded to 20Gbps simply by changing the transceivers. NBNCo also state that only 15% of capacity is typically used and that the distribution links are upgraded well ahead of congestion..

      > You keep blaming Labor for the CVC "debacle"

      I think that Labor's CVC pricing was one of their smartest decisions related to the NBN, because as a usage charge it appropriately means that who use the NBN most pay the most. It also has the great benefit of providing increased revenue as loads on the network increase and incentive for NBNCo to run a congestion free network so that RSPs receive value from purchasing more.

      The LNP reducing the price of CVC from $20 to $14 is actually going to make it significantly harder to reduce the price of AVC and hence it will suppress demand for higher speeds.

      1. Jasonk

        Re: Govt. - "There's a problem, quick everyone, bury your head in the sand".

        "So you expected to be in the <1% that Labor expected would be able to afford 1Gbps in 2026?"

        So do you know what price it would be selling for by then? $50 like it is in some countries now? that seems affordable.

        "To be on a 100Mbps plan puts you in the top 14% of Australia." Considering FTTP is around 16% and FTTN below 10%

        "If you are happy with speed tiers then expect to move or pay more for the fast speeds that only a small minority can afford." As I have shown you time and again that small minority are the one paying for the NBN but not anymore as they cant even get those speeds anymore.

        "384 premises are served by 2Gbps and this could easily be upgraded to 20Gbps " LoL but do you realise that it doesn't change to speed over get over your copper. If you can only get 15Mbps you will still only get 15Mbps. nice to see your a mouth piece for the nbn now lol.

        "The LNP reducing the price of CVC from $20 to $14 is actually going to make it significantly harder to reduce the price of AVC and hence it will suppress demand for higher speeds." your fanboi copper model is requiring more revenue in CVC now than what labor plan was. But then your copper fanboi model was only going to cost $29B and complete by last year

      2. Shezartech.com
        IT Angle

        Re: Govt. - "There's a problem, quick everyone, bury your head in the sand".

        I think this is where a lot of Edtech companies are evolving to make things easier for LMS users with mobile LMS applications that are able to work offline especially at times when internet speeds are very slow. Our mobile learning LMS app Brainmint has the capability to deliver elearning courses even when internet connectivity is not available.

  6. JJKing Silver badge
    Megaphone

    Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics.

    NBNCo stated in August that the average FTTN speed is 68Mbps and 65% can achieve 50Mbps or faster.

    Oh aren't statistics wonderful.

    19% of all vehicle accident deaths are caused by drunk drivers. This means that 81% are caused by non drunk drivers. Based on these statistics I am safer if I drive drunk. This is obviously rubbish as too are your "statistics" above.

    1. mathew42
      FAIL

      Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics.

      > This is obviously rubbish as too are your "statistics" above.

      Rather than claiming that the figures are rubbish with zero evidence. Please at least attempt to put forward an argument for your position. As part of that thought process you might want to consider the history of leaks from NBNCo and the fact that this hasn't occurred.

  7. Big-nosed Pengie

    Telstra has all-but-blamed nbn™

    The unspeakable in hot pursuit of the uneatable.

  8. X-Static

    Oversubscribinhg Provider

    I'm not with Telstra and I get the full 100/40 NBN FTTP Speeds expected and advertised by my provider, all of the time.

    Regardless of FTTP or FTTN, if the bandwidth is not enough to service Telstra customers based on their advertised speeds then this is Telstra's responsibility.

    Sounds like Telstra has over subscribed their customers and or are also wanting to smear NBN to back up the rubbish decisions Turnbull has made around Australia's broadband future.

    1. LaeMing Silver badge

      Re: Oversubscribinhg Provider

      Yes, non-Telstra user here who gets full speed on a 25/5 most of the time (peak evening TV-streaming time sees slow downs of noticeable-but-not-unconsionable levels, which I am confident to put on the upstream pipework rather than my last mile of fibre (my area was one of the last already locked into FTTP before cancellation)).

  9. Diogenes Silver badge

    Shirley not?

    Go hunting on whirlpool there are several threads that point to map on which when yiu over a property gives all sorts of interesting stats including max dl and ul speeds. My results(82 & 38) are slightly lower than predicted but only +- 5% so i amhappy to pay for the 100 rather than the 50 my rsp doesnt sell

  10. mikeinnc

    This has got absolutely nothing to do with whether Telstra (or any other ISP) buys sufficient or insufficient CVC ("capacity"). It is simply that these particular copper lines - because that is what they are - will NOT physically support the speeds that were sold to their subscribers. The doubters and naysayers can spruik all they want - if Telstra were to buy ten times as much CVC as it needed for this particular subset of subscribers, they would NEVER, EVER get download speeds above 25Mb/s (which is Telstra's default offering). In fact, many of them are incapable of getting even that paltry speed. Spin it any way you want - you cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear. And the NBN is - putting it politely - more like a sow's turd than its ear!

  11. aberglas

    60 Concurrent Televisions from 100mhz

    Amazing technology, FTTH. 60 televisions each showing a different show. Wow.

    Trouble is, most households do not have 60 televisions. Indeed very few have more than 6. So unless you are running a data center, these high speeds are just not useful.

    The problem was never bandwidth. The problem was availability. To people that did not already have good ADSL or cable. That should have been the original focus, people without decent broadband in the first place.

    But instead, the NBN has mainly been built out to people that were already happy with existing service. Hence the complaints about having to cut the copper. And many households will end up just moving to mobile.

    The whole NBN fiasco was based on the premise that people wanted very high bandwidths. And that premise is wrong. Once people can run two or three TVs they have enough bandwidth. You do not need 100mb to run Facebook.

    Incidentally, few providers provide less than 25mhz, and there is very little price difference for those that do. If 12.5 mhz was offered at 60% of the 25mhz price, it would be the most popular. Heck, if 6mhz was offered at 60% of the 25mhz price it would be the most popular for households without teenage kids.

    1. Dagg
      Boffin

      Re: 60 Concurrent Televisions from 100mhz

      It is mHz not mhz and mHz is actually a measure of frequency.

  12. rtb61

    MTM Not About Saving Money

    Who is kidding who, that MTM bullshit had nothing to do with saving money and everything to do with stealing 15 billion dollars of tax payers money and handing it over to their corporate buddies in exchange for wildly biased media promotion of the Liberal Party during elections.

    They did not care if the decades old gear would work or not, did not care on bit and now that decades old electronics pushed into overload is failing, straight up dying all over the place. It is going to get much worse and worse for many years before it gets better. People should really be going to prison for this mess.

    1. LaeMing Silver badge

      Re: MTM Not About Saving Money

      On the bright side, most of our 'developing' neighbours probably have old discontinued kit that is compatible with our 'new' infrastructure they can hock us cheap to replace the failing rust-piles.

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