What on earth is a "scaleup"? That's not even a word.
UK scaleups' interest in expanding into Europe nosedived after the Brexit vote, while US and China grew in popularity, according to Deloitte. As part of a broader report on UK scaleups, the consultancy surveyed 500 young businesses on their views before and after the UK voted to leave the European Union. When quizzed on plans …
Thursday 26th October 2017 16:44 GMT Anonymous Coward
Friday 27th October 2017 01:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
Let them go and get scaled back down in the USA...
...to return with cleaner toilets.
Europe won't mind - I don't recall a single British company improving anything upon entering any market in the EU.
Like Telcos and ISPs all over the world are bad to begin with. But if you get a British outfit buying out your local providers, you're seriously up shit creek.
Well, and Britain is, along with the Vatican, the lion's den of the abysmal world-wide control grid destroying cultures to devour and replace everything with capitalism and scientism.
Native Americans were killed wholesale, once British bankers found out they couldn't be converted to their false system of "ownership" and the abysmal trickery of using maritime law on the land - against you.
While individual British people can be the most friendly and kind people you'd ever hope to meet, they are and have been ruled by true evil for many centuries.
All empires are built by greed, hatred, violence and blatant disregard for human beings.
Friday 27th October 2017 05:49 GMT Mark 110
Not just the British that have a bad history. Portugese in South America, the Ottomans, French in North Africa, American (CIA) faffing in just about every country in the world. That 'power corrupts . . ' quote is pertinent.
Our government does seem to display a complete inability to get off its addiction to military action over diplomacy.
Anyway - not really anything to do with this discussion in the first place.
Thursday 26th October 2017 17:21 GMT Slx
They're like to have the exact same access to the US as all the EU members have, and no privileged access to the EU.
The US is a HIGHLY competitive market and, say what you like about the country, but it is extremely good at providing and creating services and IT products.
The UK was probably much better able to compete within the EU than it would be against US companies on their home turf.
Thursday 26th October 2017 18:35 GMT Mage
US is a HIGHLY competitive market
Maybe though the UK scaleups (what's a scaleup?) find it easier to learn American than German/French/Italian/Dutch/Polish?
American is superficially similar, though UK only has sport, and USA Sports. Also USA have less kinds of sums, math rather than maths.
Likely these scaleups can learn the alternate USA words and phrases in a day or two.
Thursday 26th October 2017 23:20 GMT veti
Friday 27th October 2017 12:48 GMT Roland6
>They're like to have the exact same access to the US as all the EU members have, and no privileged access to the EU.
Same access, but not equal footing...
Back in the 1980's as a UK startup the UK home market was tiny, and the EU market fragmented, so you had little choice but to attempt the US market: setting up a US sales office, running US targetted ad campaigns etc. so as to appear to be a US home-grown business etc. This put quite a stress on a 5 man startup, in addition to the financial costs. The creation of the Single Market back then was seen by M.Thatcher and the business community as an enlargement of the home market, potentially permitting businesses to become larger, more established and better financed to be able to take on the challenges of the US market.
Fast forward to 2020 and the situation becomes markedly different: the UK home market will shrink back to its pre-Single Market size, whilst the home markets of the EU27 won't shrink back to their national boundaries - so they will retain many benefits of the Single Market and the leverage it gives them in entering the US market.
Friday 27th October 2017 13:38 GMT codejunky
"Particularly since that same US is currently going through one of its periodic bouts of isolationism"
True. They have rejected the EU and while we were told by Obama we were at the back of the queue if we brexit, Trump has put us to the front for a trade deal. The EU doesnt like that but tough. Could mean we have less foreign competition in the US.
"Back in the 1980's"
The EU didnt exist. Common market in Europe to ease trading.
"Fast forward to 2020"
EU exists and is either in painful teething stages or is being hammered by ignorance and incompetence. The trade area turning into a political interference area and countries being sacrificed to avoid fixing problems. Increased tensions and encouraging the rise of non-mainstream political groups often from the extremes of political wings increasing concerns that an extreme political party/candidate could win.
"so they will retain many benefits of the Single Market and the leverage it gives them in entering the US market."
See above. The EU has shrunk as a percentage of the world economy. The world is growing faster while the EU is slowing down. Also the EU is years behind the economic recovery of the last recession and all the tales of fast and amazing growth seem to forget the EU really should do as it has so much distance to catch up before it has a working economy again. And we are due another recession any time.
Sunday 29th October 2017 03:57 GMT veti
"Trump has put us to the front..."
In all seriousness, I would advocate cutting off all connection with America - total embargo on all trade, flights, exchange of currency, boot all citizens out of the country - if the alternative was signing a trade deal with Trump.
There simply isn't a spoon long enough.
Sunday 29th October 2017 13:39 GMT codejunky
"In all seriousness, I would advocate cutting off all connection with America"
Really? You would cut off a large portion of our trade market? You would shun a country due to this one president after the last 2? You would reject trade with the large western market that is recovering from the recession (ahead of us and well ahead of the EU)?
Instead of becoming reclusive from the world I would prefer we get back into it. I disagree with the EU but I dont wish to cut off all connection with them. I would be happy leaving them to do things their own way, and us ours while pleasantly coexisting. Why not try and negotiate a trade deal with trump? Is it Americans you dont like or are they to blame by association of a president you dont like? Which country do you like for us to trade with?
Thursday 26th October 2017 17:54 GMT Anonymous Coward
Quite a lot of complex issues have positives and negatives, and the decision is a delicate balancing act. I'm yet to see any tangible upsides to leaving the EU for the UK. The political class has dropped a massive bollock. Cameron trying to silence his internal dissenters, and an aged, empire coveting, french people distrusting, migrant hating body of voters, have taken a massive shit on this country. I want to vote on the deal please : And I'd like "Okay, this is silly : lets stay as we were for the last 40 years" to be on the ballot. In all probability, enough Leavers have probably 'left' the mortal coil in the last year and a bit to swing it. Many of those who have damaged this country wont be around to help clear up the mess.
Thursday 26th October 2017 18:38 GMT AMBxx
Friday 27th October 2017 09:07 GMT H in The Hague
"The only place I need to fill out extra paperwork is the EU - the ECSL to show that no tax was due and that no tax was paid. Utterly pointless. "
?!?! As it happens, I just submitted mine yesterday. Doesn't take any significant work. Doesn't your accounting software do that automatically? In fact less work and potential impact on your cash flow than transactions within the same country, where you have to charge your customers VAT and pay it to the tax authority.
(Note for non-EU readers: all EU countries have a Value Added Tax/sales tax/turnover tax system. If you supply a customer in your own country you have to charge VAT which, after deducting the VAT your suppliers have charged you, you pay to the tax folk. If you supply a VAT-registered customer (normally a business) in another EU country you do that without charging your local VAT. (This saves your customer having to reclaim VAT from another country, instead they raise VAT locally and immediately reclaim it.) Such transactions are included on the European Sales List.)
Friday 27th October 2017 09:15 GMT Anonymous Coward
>The only place I need to fill out extra paperwork is the EU
What do you sell? - anything physical will need export paperwork to anywhere outside the EU. For many countries (especially Asian), this is still a vestige from the age of typewriters and triplicate paperwork that cannot contain any errors.
Friday 27th October 2017 11:28 GMT Roland6
>The only place I need to fill out extra paperwork is the EU - the ECSL
Doesn't your Financial system produce that automatically - mine does.
For a client I did an Excel version that was used to fault find why their £m ERP system was giving incorrect figures, so even if your Financial system doesn't, it is relatively easy to collate the data.
Thursday 26th October 2017 19:50 GMT YARR
The French aren't to blame - they objected to us joining, even though we subsidised their farmers until Maggie wrangled a rebate.
We didn't vote to join an empire. Our empire is history - it was before most "old" people's time.
Since waves of EU immigrants arrived on mass, it's young British people who've endured unaffordable housing, stagnating wages (in real-terms). Wealthy oldies have enjoyed appreciating house prices, lost cost labour and cheaper imports.
Once the EU trade situation is known, industry will realign. We will have to live more within our means and stop running up debt - which is better for us in the long run. Once immigration is reduced, housing will be more affordable and young people can expect rising wages from less competition. You're right - there may be no tangible benefits for you.
Friday 27th October 2017 05:36 GMT streaky
I'm yet to see any tangible upsides to leaving the EU for the UK
Because we can trade with the rest of the world without the EU throwing up roadblocks every 30 seconds? Because we can get an immigration system that's fit for the economy we want as opposed to an immigration system fit for an economy with loads of people doing the kinds of work the UK has no business doing like, I don't know, labour-intensive low-value farming?
I could go on for days listing reasons but suffice it to say there's a huge list of upsides and absolutely no downsides.
Friday 27th October 2017 08:44 GMT H in The Hague
Friday 27th October 2017 16:46 GMT streaky
Please give an example of such a roadblock which limits your opportunity to export.
Didn't say export, I said trade. Both ways, and including costs of operating as business. But now you mention it - the EU's unnecessary trade war with China making it difficult to import goods into the EU at a fair price so instead we have to buy overpriced German equivalents in markets like I don't know, solar panels, which are a fairly big deal in the UK at the moment so we're having to ultimately pay more for our energy than we otherwise would because unlike Germany our energy market isn't trying to be as polluting as is absolutely possible?
Now this is the part where you say China is dumping solar panels on the market and not selling them at market price - but here's the thing that will blow your mind: the market price isn't what the European Commission says it is - it's their price... on the market.. Cheap solar panels is a good thing, it's a position to be abused to get cleaner energy at a lower cost, but we can't have nice things because of Germany and Spain. If China wants to subsidise the European energy market with no strings attached we should let them - in fact we should beg them to do it.
Here's another: GDPR creating unnecessary rules regarding the handling of data that will turn the entire EU into the digital third world by making handing EU citizens data far more expensive than it needs to be but not in any way more secure and nobody will want to do business with them who has a business that requires handling personal data to function and is willing to follow the rules.
I could keep listing these but suffice it to say being in the EU makes operating more expensive for any country/business who follows the rules. Now if you want to play a game of Germany not playing by the rules at the expense of everybody else I could make a list of that too but you're all brainwashed so I'm fully aware that truth upsets people.
Friday 27th October 2017 12:01 GMT chr0m4t1c
>I could go on for days listing reasons but suffice it to say there's a huge list of upsides and absolutely no downsides.
The company I was working for a year ago decided to significantly scale back its UK presence as a direct result of Brexit and over the last year has made 10,000 people redundant (including myself).
If you think there are absolutely no downsides then you aren't paying attention.
Here's a tip: If you can't think of a compelling argument *for* an opposing viewpoint then you don't understand your own position.
The biggest problem with Brexit is that the arguments for it still rely on a made up future that assumes we'll be able to get all of the deals we want with no downsides. Personally, I don't have that level of confidence in the people in charge, I don't know about you.
Here's an idea: Instead of a Netflix subscription, why don't you negotiate with all the studios individually then come back and tell us how much better the new arrangement is in both convenience and value.
Friday 27th October 2017 17:41 GMT H in The Hague
"Because we can get an immigration system that's fit for the economy we want ..."
About half the immigrants are from outside the EU and the UK has always had full control over them. The half from the EU are more likely to be in work and less likely to be claiming benefits than the natives and furthermore they can get thrown out if they become a burden on public funds (or something like that, not an expert) after three months. However, successive governments have not chosen to do that.
"... as opposed to an immigration system fit for an economy with loads of people doing the kinds of work the UK has no business doing like, I don't know, labour-intensive low-value farming?"
Well, if you want to become totally dependent on imports for food - not something that sounds v sensible. As it is, UK self-sufficiency in terms of food has been dropping over the years and is now only around 60%. Of course, you can import your strawberries from the Netherlands, but that's going to increase the cost to consumers. Furthermore, the construction industry is quite dependent on immigrants as British kids would rather do a media studies course than become a plumber, or study visual anthropology than train to become a welder (or nurse, or carer, or doctor). Governments could have encouraged them to study something useful, but didn't.
Friday 27th October 2017 19:56 GMT streaky
About half the immigrants are from outside the EU and the UK has always had full control over them.
Whilst *technically* true isn't *functionally* true. For every carrot picker we bring in from Poland we lose space for a high skill employee doing something of high economic value. It's just the reality of the world. Government needs to be seen to not be trying to replace the native population wholesale and to do that needs to curb immigration from outside the EU. Not to say everybody coming from the EU is low skilled but it's a more than significant proportion. Not to say that low skilled immigration isn't often useful - but there's absolutely no way to control it, and that isn't healthy when those people's costs and expectations of living standards are different to the native population's.
if you want to become totally dependent on imports for food - not something that sounds v sensible
Not *totally* but at the same time there's no reason or the UK to grow a lot of food that we do. We should stick to what we're good at and has value and import the rest. Get a bit of peace and prosperity going in Africa (I could talk about the effect the CAP has on the economy of Africa and why it causes the mass immigration and frankly civil war that everybody is tearing their hair out about in Europe without looking at the actual root cause of for days) by helping them grow things that grow well there, buying things that grow well in other places from there. The economics of this are well documented and known to the EU but they refuse, pointedly, to take action on it because they don't want French farmers spraying shit up the side of the EU buildings in Brussels, which is apparently a good excuse(?!).
Of course, you can import your strawberries from the Netherlands, but that's going to increase the cost to consumers.
We import strawberries from all over the world anyway, best I've had in recent years not from PYO were from California and Israel (not in the EU). Most UK grown strawberries are left for PYO, not a whole lot go to supermarket - the main bulk in supermarkets are from Spain and North Africa (Morocco et al - also not in the EU).
Also yes, fwiw, we absolutely shouldn't have a problem with importing food from other countries. We do it anyway so what's the point in haggling over percentages?
Saturday 28th October 2017 00:12 GMT David Black
Kudos to you for trying to make counter arguments on the toxic Brexit topic. Not that I agree with your general overall neoliberal unfettered trade arguments but you do have some legitimate supporting points that rarely get aired.
93% of EU migrants wouldn’t meet the earnings or skills test of non-EU migrants. While I suspect few are in agriculture as you suggest, most are propping up viscous service companies and they definitely do have a bearing on low-end pay across the society and are massively stalling technological innovation. Look at car washes to see this. 20 years ago, many a forecourt had a lovely automated wash machine with nice complex sensors and some lovely software control as well as an army of technicians who drove around maintaining and servicing them. Now you have a team of east European guys with dirty sponges earning a fraction of the minimum wage as independent car cleaning self-employed staff. Still costs you a fiver but the economic net benefit is screwed, tax receipts are down and our productivity declines. So those low-end, low skill jobs do kill tech jobs further up the chain. With limitless migration, all but a wealthy elite become enslaved as automation reverses into human automation at slave pay. It is no coincidence that the number one destination for even moderately educated Greeks is now Germany. There’s no no need to use tanks and invasions to build your empire when you can use Central banks, loans and undemocratic institutions. It won’t end well for any of us.
Have a good weekend :)
Friday 27th October 2017 09:13 GMT Anonymous Coward
> In all probability, enough Leavers have probably 'left' the mortal coil in the last year and a bit to swing it.
I did the maths not so long ago, and roughly 600,000 less old Leave voters have left and roughly 600,000 more new young Remain voters joined the voting register in the last 18 months. If everyone else voted as they did, it would be pretty much a tie now and tipping to Remain over the next few months.
Of course, some voters would have switched allegiance but we will never find out for certain.
Friday 27th October 2017 14:00 GMT codejunky
"I'm yet to see any tangible upsides to leaving the EU for the UK"
We have yet to leave so first addressing that-
> Our economy is improving. The US is considering a base rate rise, we are now considering it, the EU is still years behind recovery.
> The above is due to our currency falling. Our currency being overvalued was already pointed out before the referendum but was only framed as a 'problem' when the referendum campaigning started. It was gonna happen anyway and keeping it too high for too long kept our base rate down and continuing problems for the economy.
> The currency was kept high because the GBP was used to prop up and bail out the failing EUR. The problem with the EUR is it is overvalued for Greece and such while undervalued for Germany. So Germany has trade boosted and Greece has unemployment problems and more.
> Our housing market is starting to cool after the extended propping up due to our overvalued currency.
> We have retained the US trade negotiation that the EU lost and can negotiate on our terms not the whole of the EU.
> We have the willingness of China to negotiate trade which the EU cannot seem to do.
> Other trade deal possibilities have been made available (we can make our own instead of waiting for the EU to do it) and a number have come to us for trade.
Now things that can occur after-
> Without trade deals we can be better off by removing the punitive trade barriers the EU demand such as high tariffs against poor countries. Since this keeps poor countries poor we will also be improving the lives of the actually globally poor while reducing costs to us.
> Control over our own laws and the freedom to burn imposed and interfering laws.
> Not responsible (even if only in part of the group) for the economic damage the EU inflicts on member countries.
Tangible upsides have already started. Especially in economic recovery we have been aiming for since 2008.
Friday 27th October 2017 15:19 GMT sal II
Re: @ nick_rampart
Typical Brexiteer blaming the EU for everything and wearing rose tinted glasses...
> Last quarter GDP growth is 0.4% fro UK vs 0.6% for the EU
> GBP value is not mandated or controlled by the EU, but market conditions and BoE
> Housing market is propped not by overvalued GBP, but artificial government caused inflation - a.k.a. help to by and decades of under-investment in new builds. anyway nothing to do with EU membership
> Call me when we have actual signed trade deals with US/China that actually benefit the UK, we can't even renegotiate the exiting "deal" with the EU...
> Trade barriers are there to protect local business - for example UK farmers will be utterly f**ked with by any FTA with Africa/US/S.America
> You will pay a heavy price for "freedom to burn imposed and interfering laws." by relinquishing your right to privacy to begin with and it won't end there...
> What ecenomic dmage has the EU caused to, member states? Are you quoting Greece? If so get your facts together, it wasn't the EU that let them retire at 50 with final salary and have guaranteed 13th salary and often 14th. They had the chance to quite the Eurozone and default, noone foreced them to accept the bailouts, there were no German panzers at the borders...
Friday 27th October 2017 16:25 GMT codejunky
Re: @ nick_rampart
@ sal II
"> Last quarter GDP growth is 0.4% fro UK vs 0.6% for the EU"
And so it should be. The huge slack in the EU due to high unemployment and the devastation of economies pretty much ensures they should be growing much faster as they are so far behind. That fast growth is the replacement growth they lost, they are catching up to where they should be. When someone tells you how fast they are growing just remember how low a position they are starting at.
"> GBP value is not mandated or controlled by the EU, but market conditions and BoE"
At no point did I claim the EU controlled the GBP. If they did we would be in the Euro and buggered.
"> Housing market is propped not by overvalued GBP, but artificial government caused inflation - a.k.a. help to by and decades of under-investment in new builds. anyway nothing to do with EU membership"
The overvalued GBP propped up the EUR. After brexit the currency falls and inflation (that we need) kicks off. Base rate increases expected because of inflation and expectations slow down the market. Also the falling GBP reduces the value of property bought as investment from overseas.
"> Call me when we have actual signed trade deals with US/China that actually benefit the UK, we can't even renegotiate the exiting "deal" with the EU..."
The EU has stated outright it will not negotiate until we agree to 3 demands. We reject those demands so the EU will not negotiate (their negotiators not allowed to negotiate!) and as you should know we are not allowed to sign any trade deals while in the EU cartel.
"> Trade barriers are there to protect local business - for example UK farmers will be utterly f**ked with by any FTA with Africa/US/S.America"
Yup. Keep those people poor so we can spend more on subsidised products grown inefficiently. If that is your argument then you want out of the EU so we are out of the free trade area and you would also reject importing because it takes jobs from our citizens. You would also be arguing we become a nationalistic recluse.
"> You will pay a heavy price for "freedom to burn imposed and interfering laws." by relinquishing your right to privacy to begin with and it won't end there..."
Really? Cmon invoke Godwins law and then we can all laugh heartily. Btw you do know the EU relies on our membership for access to the 5 eyes intelligence? Their Europol information sharing being woeful and difficult to use.
"> What ecenomic dmage has the EU caused to, member states? Are you quoting Greece?"
Just gonna put up your first line because it made me laugh when reading the above-
"Typical Brexiteer blaming the EU for everything and wearing rose tinted glasses"
You are aware that the EU bought the debt. The EU bought the debt. The EU bought the debt. Are you telling me the EU is not at fault? The EU bought the debt. And of course the EU abuses the country with a debt that cannot be repaid and would have been defaulted on. The EU bought the debt. And of course the EU know it cant be repaid but the members cant tell their voters that or lose the next election. The EU bought the debt. The EU considered throwing Greece out but instead the IMF abandoned all economic knowledge learned from hundreds of years and between them convinced Greece to be under the EU thumb. The EU bought the debt.
Hopefully the message is clear there as to who is at fault. And the reason the EU bought the debt? To bail out the banks of the richer member countries who made the bad loans in the first place.
Saturday 28th October 2017 14:34 GMT zvonr
The Japanese and the germans did pretty well in "scaling up" in the US so far... I am not sure that somehow UK companies will suddenly scale up in the US better with Brexit... But stress can be good for you :-), you either succeed or ...
However I don't see how Not having access to the EU talent pool will help compete against US companies... or other EU companies already there...
The only ones who will benefit from Brexit will be the US, Japan, China, Russia....
The good old "divide et impera" at work...
Ted Malloch (considered by the Trump administration as ambassador to the EU) "claimed that in a former diplomatic life to have helped bring down the Soviet Union, and would quite like to do the same for the EU. “Maybe there’s another union needs a little taming,” he says." (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/03/eu-trump-ambassador-european-parliament-ted-malloch)
The Russians seem to be pretty decent at "divide and impera" as well: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/06/facebook-gave-special-counsel-robert-mueller-data-on-russian-ads-report-says.html
My bet is that the UK will not do better trade deals on its own simply because "There is strength in numbers"... and I don't see what leverage the UK will have when negotiating with larger economies... Also questionable of how much love China and India will show the UK considering the past... and not to mention: America first!
Outside the EU, the UK will be even more vulnerable to "divide and impera" ... and how "United" the kingdom is, will be definitely tested...
Monday 30th October 2017 14:45 GMT streaky
However I don't see how Not having access to the EU talent pool will help compete against US companies
This is where your post goes off all half-cocked. We're not talking about nobody will ever cross the channel ever again. We're talking about leaving the EU. We're talking about ending the no questions asked, no validation needed, no case need be made immigration system and replacing it with one fit for purpose. How effective it'll be is a question for another day but once we have a government that is allowed to tailor the system to fit we can boot them out if they're getting it wrong and opt for another choice.
The only way to make this work is for the UK to leave the EU, so that's what we have to do.
My bet is that the UK will not do better trade deals on its own simply because "There is strength in numbers"... and I don't see what leverage the UK will have when negotiating with larger economies
Dunno, what leverage does Switzerland have? What leverage does Singapore have? We know we can be more competitive and operate fairer terms with most of the world's economies than the EU allows its trading partners so I don't really see the issue. The other leverage is that because we're not massive with a massive complicated pile of interplay issues - and one voice and nobody to need to horse trade with - the deals themselves don't have to be nor will be massively complicated. The EU's size is a barrier to trade deals, that's why the EU is still negotiating with China about negotiating to have talks. The supposed Japan deal will never get off the ground and neither will the EU's fabled merging of EU and NAFTA.
Wednesday 1st November 2017 09:09 GMT allthecoolshortnamesweretaken
"Dunno, what leverage does Switzerland have?"
Quite a lot, actually.
1. Switzerland is small, which means low overhead.
2. Switzerland offers highly specialized services and wares, mainly in machinery and pharmaceuticals.
3. Switzerland has signed bilateral treaties whereby the Swiss Confederation has adopted various provisions of European Union law in order to participate in the Union's single market. For all practical purposes concerning trade they are de facto a part of the EU's single market.
As always, sorry for the Jimbopedia link.