back to article BBC Telly Tax petition given new Parliament debate date

Parliament has rescheduled its debate on the BBC TV Tax, after it was quietly canned thanks to the UK's snap general election earlier this year. A public petition against the BBC TV Licence fee was launched after The Register revealed that notorious outsourcing firm Capita, whose door-to-door salesmen collect the tax, took 71 …

  1. TRT Silver badge

    I have no issues with the Telly Tax

    I do have issues with employing Crapita to police it.

    1. ad47uk

      Re: I have no issues with the Telly Tax

      Well you should, because Capita is an awful company and not fit to run anything.

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: I have no issues with the Telly Tax

        Which is my issue.

  2. DailyLlama

    If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

    Just try watching the sh!te on the other channels, peppered by adverts, and you'll soon turn back to the Beeb.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      I'm yet to figure this one out : What if I dont watch the BBC, but I'm happy with Sky, CH4 and ITV. I'll say it again : I dont watch the BBC. Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        Okay, I'll bite... because you don't have a specially constructed television that can only receive commercial channels and is physically incapable of receiving BBC channels. And neither does anyone else. So while your principals are whiter than the driven snow, others are less so.

        Secondly, the presence of the BBC raises the standards of the other channels. Without it there would be a rush to the bottom with 3 minutes of programming per 30 minutes of adverts. Without the Beeb you wouldn't want to be watching commercial only.

        1. Jim 59

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          "Secondly, the presence of the BBC raises the standards of the other channels. "

          @AC how does that work ?

        2. MOV r0,r0

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          Secondly, the presence of the BBC raises the standards of the other channels. Without it there would be a rush to the bottom with 3 minutes of programming per 30 minutes of adverts.

          The 'rush to the bottom' was started by the BBC when it began chasing ratings after ITV launched in the 50's

        3. Goldmember

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          "rush to the bottom with 3 minutes of programming per 30 minutes of adverts."

          This is incorrect, actually. The ratio of ads to programming is regulated. It was increased for Sky when it launched to give it a chance of survival. A few years ago, the other providers complained and were given the same increased level (Sky's should have been decreased to match in my view, not the other way around). It's not done hourly but over a day, which is why you see more during peak evening times and fewer late at night. But the disappearance of the licence alone will not cause an increase in ad frequency.

          And oddly, as others have mentioned, the BBC almost matches commercial radio and TV in terms of ads promoting itself anyway. Radio 2 is unbearable for more than a couple of hours for me, for this very reason.

          It's definitely time for a serious discussion on the future of TVL.

        4. aks Bronze badge

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          It's nothing to do with the equipment. That's always been true, but is even clearer since they've widened the scope to include PC's and mobile. The law's always been about streaming live programs. That's now been extended to include catchup of BBC programs using iPlayer. I'm not sure how long before iPlayer is put directly behind a paywall.

          I have all the equipment, which now includes having a PC or mobile.

          I don't watch any live TV as I gave up doing that about 15 years ago and haven't had a licence during that time. I've even got the letter from TV Licencing confirming that I don't need one.

      2. DontFeedTheTrolls
        Mushroom

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        "I dont watch the BBC. Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?"

        I don't have kids. Why should I pay to educate your mongrels

        1. Defiant

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          Because those kids will be paying taxes, you've just posted an old pathetic excuse

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          I'd say that funding education for the younger generation is important. (Though British education is a joke, you'd be better off raising your kids overseas.)

          But funding TV just so people can rot their brains on crap like Jeremy Kyle? Fuck off.

      3. steviebuk Silver badge

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        Because part of the fees go to those channels as well. Well Channel 4 anyway.

        1. aks Bronze badge

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          Channel 4 is government owned, with advertisements.

          If the BBC switched to that model, the TV Licence could disappear. They do have some ads but they only promote BBC TV, radio and events.

      4. Oddlegs

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        I find it bizarre that people are willing to pay Sky a minimum of £25 a month (and still have to watch adverts) yet complain about paying the BBC less than half that. I also have a hard job of believing that across the TV channels, iplayer, the website and radio there isn't some content to suit absolutely everyone.

        It wouldn't just be a case of scrapping the license fee, allowing advertising and everything else continuing as now. There's only so much adversiting money to go round and the BBC would be likely to hoover up most of it. ITV and C4's revenues would plummet with a corresponding drop in quality of programming. Several of the smaller channels would likely disappear altogether.

        Those campaigning to scrap the license fee should be careful what they wish for. Whilst the BBC is far from perfect the entire entertainment landscape of this country would be worse off without it.

        1. TonyJ Silver badge

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          "I find it bizarre that people are willing to pay Sky a minimum of £25 a month (and still have to watch adverts) yet complain about paying the BBC less than half that. I also have a hard job of believing that across the TV channels, iplayer, the website and radio there isn't some content to suit absolutely everyone.

          It wouldn't just be a case of scrapping the license fee, allowing advertising and everything else continuing as now. There's only so much adversiting money to go round and the BBC would be likely to hoover up most of it. ITV and C4's revenues would plummet with a corresponding drop in quality of programming. Several of the smaller channels would likely disappear altogether.

          Those campaigning to scrap the license fee should be careful what they wish for. Whilst the BBC is far from perfect the entire entertainment landscape of this country would be worse off without it."

          Here's the thing though - with something like Sky you can record future episodes and watch them, at your leisure, skipping the adverts.

          I can series link so they all download in future.

          I can watch almost all of their offerings on a number of device types - not just for a few days or weeks after they broadcast and once I've recorded something to my box, I can actually (should I so desire) keep it ad infinitum.

          Now perhaps I am being unfair to the iPlayer and it can do all of that but I rarely use it.

          I love the comedy half hour on R4 between 6:30 and 7:00pm - not everything (some of it is utter shite, to be honest, but most of it is worthy of a chuckle) but you try and find something over about 30 days old on average. Nope. Not usually happening.

          You're paying Sky or Virgin (or if you prefer a LOT less to Amazon or Netflix) for a much wider choice of channels than you get from the BBC, even taking radio into account. And some of the quality on them is truly outstanding (Halt and Catch Fire, on Amazon or Rick and Morty on NetFlix anyone? Just two outstanding examples)

          And let's not forget that, like all of the other channels, the BBC do have some utter race-to-the-bottom crap on there as well.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

            Here's the thing though - with something like Sky you can record future episodes and watch them, at your leisure, skipping the adverts.

            I can series link so they all download in future.

            ...

            and once I've recorded something to my box, I can actually (should I so desire) keep it ad infinitum.

            Wow! You pay Sky £25+ pcm just for that - Humax Freeview PVR's have been able to do that since circa 2003...

        2. Cynic_999 Silver badge

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          "

          I find it bizarre that people are willing to pay Sky a minimum of £25 a month (and still have to watch adverts) yet complain about paying the BBC less than half that.

          "

          If people spent £250 a week on a weekly shop at Waitrose, would you similarly see nothing wrong with demanding that they also give £100 a week to Sainsbury even though they never enter the place?

          Makes about as much sense.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

            If people spent £250 a week on a weekly shop at Waitrose, would you similarly see nothing wrong with demanding that they also give £100 a week to Sainsbury even though they never enter the place?

            Well if Waitrose stocked all of Sainbury's lines as well as their own, for which I only paid a handling charge within my £250 weekly bill in the expectation that I was also giving £100 a week to Sainsbury's then I wouldn't see anything wrong.

            Remember Sky doesn't pay the BBC, it is required to carry and distribute (ie. 'handle') the BBC (and the other Freeview?) channels on it's infrastructure to all of it's UK subscribers...

        3. jasper pepper

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          Who are you to tell me what is best for me? You (and I) may find people paying Sky a strange, even irrational choice but the thing is it is their choice.

        4. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          "There's only so much adversiting money to go round and the BBC would be likely to hoover up most of it."

          And that's already a problem hence the result of the lobbying by the commercial broadcasters to get the limits on advert breaks changed from a maximum length and maximum minutes per hour, to the same totals averaged out of 24 hours. This has lead to breaks of 5 minutes or more during peak times and sometimes no actual ads at all beyond midnight, just short trailer breaks. Bear in mind that this means that shows that used to fit in an hour with two or three three minute breaks now have at least three five minute breaks. New shows may be written that way, but older shows get cut to ribbons. And don't get me started on the channels to schedule ad breaks by computer and have been known to put an ad break in the middle of an actors sentence!

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        So we can.

      6. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        Because soon Sky, Ch4, ITV etc. will become pay per view and it will be more than 50p per day per channel.

      7. Cody

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        You should pay the tax for the same reason that you pay other similar taxes.

        The BBC is one supplier of TV services among many, but it is one that the government has chosen to make everyone pay for whether they want to or not.

        In the same way, you cannot buy the Guardian without paying the newspaper tax, the proceeds of which fund the public service newspaper, the Daily Telegraph.

        You cannot shop at Tesco without paying the supermarket access fee, and having a license ready to display if challenged, and of course the proceeds of this go to the public service supermarket Waitrose.

        It is universal in British life that there is one service provider among many, and that to use any of the services, you have to have a license for which you pay a fee, and this fee goes to one of the providers.

        Take cars, for instance. You pay a road tax, you have to, in order to be permitted to drive. Well, the proceeds go to the public service car manufacturer, Rover, or rather, nowadays, to its successor and purchaser BMW.

        Why do you think broadcasting should be any different? Its the same in all other areas of life. You cannot even buy an adult men's magazine without paying a tax to have the right to read magazines, and the fees are paid to the public service men's magazine, I forget its title now, not being an aficionado of these publications....

        Now people sometimes object. They say, why should I pay Waitrose for the privilege of being allowed to shop at Tesco?

        Let me explain to you all once again. Waitrose is a public service supermarket. its just like the roads or the national health service or defence or the police. And its excellent value too. Just the Waitrose olive oil alone is worth the supermarket license fee. And competition from a public service supermarket makes Tesco so much better. Let me tell you, without it, you would not want to shop at Tesco who would be free to supply nothing but mouldy and past sell date goods.

        You wouldn't want that, would you?

        I hope this makes it all clear. it is very basic, so basic that people sometimes forget and think that there is something special about the way we fund the BBC. Well, let me tell you, there is not. it is absolutely normal and standard and permitted by the EU, so it must be all right.

        1. Gerry 3
          Thumb Up

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          Brilliant ! But watch out, the Ministry of Food will pop round to invalidate your Ration Book...

    2. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      Worth the licence fee for Radio 4 alone

      1. Jim 59

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        It's worth it for This Week alone. Radio 4 makes many intelligent people want to throw their radio into the garden.

      2. ad47uk

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        i listen to two things on radio four, both panel shows and that is it, I would not pay the TV tax for that, anyway, radio is free to listen to, no need to pay TV tax.

    3. katrinab Silver badge

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      I don't watch the BBC or any of the other channels, mostly YouTube, and I still get pestered by them.

    4. Jim 59

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      "Just try watching the sh!te on the other channels, peppered by adverts, and you'll soon turn back to the Beeb."

      If only that were still true, DailyLlama. Unfortunately, all BBC programmes are seperated buy long avertising cycles, on both TV and radio. On radio, news programmes are also routinely interrupted, sometimes every 8 ot 10 minutes, for a short advertising slot. The ads themselves are usually for future BBC programs, or just promoting the BBC itsellf. Just adverts for themselves, no more.

      It is quite tragic for the Beeb. They have killed their own biggest advantage over commercial rivals, and shown how little they think of viewers and listeners by targeting them with anoying advertorial that isn't even needed for commercial survival.

      And now here is the soft music, and that honeyed voice intones, for the 11th time, about that forthcoming Radio 4 programme that you have no interest in...

      1. DailyLlama

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        "If only that were still true, DailyLlama. Unfortunately, all BBC programmes are seperated buy long avertising cycles, on both TV and radio. On radio, news programmes are also routinely interrupted, sometimes every 8 ot 10 minutes, for a short advertising slot. The ads themselves are usually for future BBC programs, or just promoting the BBC itsellf. Just adverts for themselves, no more."

        That's fine, I have no issue with that, but I can't stand watching a program where the titles run, then there's an ad break. You get 10-15 minutes of action, then another ad break, then another 10-15 minutes of action, and another ad break, then a final ad break before the credits roll. What kind of way is that to watch anything?

      2. Steve 114

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        Even applies to Radio 3 ('The Third Programme') which is nowadays infested by irrelevant music clips that fade annoyingly into smug voiceovers advertising another programme altogether. Just play the music, folks!

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      No adverts seems to be the only justification for me having to pay an unfair tax.

      I don't watch the BBC because they don't make tv aimed at me.

      There are proven non advertising based channels out there like Netflix and hbo. You need a TV to watch them but owning a TV in the UK is equated to needing a licence/watching the beeb... And don't get me started on how much you get hassled when you don't have a TV atall... It's inconceivable to them that lots of us just ditched the whole damn lot over this ridiculous tax!

      1. sabroni Silver badge

        Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?

        Same reason that some of your taxes fund the roads even if you don't drive, the health service even when you're not poor and education though you're not a child.

        This isn't a subscription service, it's a tax to fund a public broadcaster.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?

          "Same reason that some of your taxes..."

          Well, it's all priorities really isn't it. Me, I don't think Antiques Road Trip or Homes under the Hammer are public spending priorities. I'm gonna go out on a limb here : Roads, health, and education are. The state should not be providing entertainment. Private companies can do that just fine.

          Edit : And irony of ironies, stuff that the state should provide, like Trains, Water, Power etc. are provided by private companies!

        2. inmypjs Silver badge

          Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?

          "taxes fund the roads"

          You don't have to use roads to significantly benefit from them. Others watching the BBC is no benefit to me, actually the opposite. The country would benefit from not being exposed to the lefty biased and low quality crap the BBC news service spews.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

            1. Andy The Hat Silver badge

              Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?

              "Freeview content, albeit free, is of a much lower standard than the BBC"

              Interesting comment. Have you any idea how many Freeview channels are owned or the material sourced from the BBC?

              Add the Sky and the "Wallet Opening Channels" of all types and that's basically it ...

              When UK Gold was launched I thought is was such an incredible marketing strategy to endlessly repeat repeats ... then they managed to completely trump the idea with Dave ... then incredibly Dave+1, Dave JaVu and probably other such channels as "Dave+365", "Isn't there something on Dave?" and "Dara Never Grows Old on Dave"

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?

            "lefty biased"

            Left ------ BBC ----- Right

            Anyone with half a brain can work it out.

            1. CustardGannet

              Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?

              Anyone with half a brain can work it out

              Unfortunately, the Daily Heil types who think that the BBC is a hotbed of Marxism are lucky if they have 5% of a brain, never mind 50%.

          3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?

            "the lefty biased and low quality crap the BBC news service spews."

            ....aaaaand cue the complainant claiming the BBC if biased to the right :-)

        3. Cynic_999 Silver badge

          Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?

          "

          Same reason that some of your taxes fund the roads even if you don't drive, the health service even when you're not poor and education though you're not a child.

          "

          The HUGE difference being that the roads, education and health benefit everyone either directly or indirectly - and furthermore are necessary in our society, while a TV channel benefits only those who choose to watch it and society would function perfectly well without it.

          1. Gerry 3
            Thumb Up

            Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?

            Another difference is that the essentials of education and healthcare can involve significant outlay at the times when they are needed, so a state scheme funded by taxation smooths the peaks and trough and makes it affordable for everyone all the time.

            In contrast, PAYG TV is completely realistic because it's affordable. I don't like Murdoch, but at least you can choose whether to subscribe to watch his rubbish and he doesn't come banging on your door or send you to jail if you don't pay.

        4. Defiant

          Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee?

          CH4 is a public service, wakey wakey

        5. Fihart

          Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee? @sabroni

          "This isn't a subscription service, it's a tax to fund a public broadcaster."

          If it's a tax, levy it on a scale like income tax.

          Instead of charging viewers indiscriminately, regardless of ability to pay.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Please someone tell me why I should pay the license fee? @sabroni

            Like vehicle tax?

      2. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        "There are proven non advertising based channels out there like Netflix and hbo. You need a TV to watch them but owning a TV in the UK is equated to needing a licence/watching the beeb."

        No you don't...

        You need a license to receive broadcast TV (Cable/Sattellite/Terrestrial) or iPlayer streaming.

        Other streaming services do not need a TVL.

        I have spent several years ignoring the TVL letters sent to me on a ridiculously frequent basis...

        1. MOV r0,r0

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          I have spent several years ignoring the TVL letters sent to me on a ridiculously frequent basis...

          If the frequency starts to bother you, just answer one. I now get just one email every four years which I think simply exists for people to perjure themselves should they get caught out.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

            The frequency doesn't bother me, I simply refuse to make any form of contact when it will (A) cost in terms of postage, or phone call, and (B) does not guarantee anything to stop them turning up to "inspect my home".

            So they will (again) get a "go away" comment if they should turn up and wake me again, the same as the last 2 times. A few times a year they tell me they will visit on some date (within 2 weeks) but shockingly, they never do. I would love them to make the appointment so I can charge them 500 quid for me taking time from my consultancy work to be home that just for them to "inspect".

            NB 500 quid was plucked from thin air... I once charged 1500 for about 15 minutes work (and the client was happy, as I saved them thousands, hence the large fee).

            1. Gerry 3
              Stop

              Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

              >"The frequency doesn't bother me, I simply refuse to make any form of contact when it will (A) cost in terms of postage, or phone call, and (B) does not guarantee anything to stop them turning up to "inspect my home".

              You can always email enquiries@tvlicensing.co.uk, use the form at www.tvlicensing.co.uk/cs/contact-us/question.app or send an unstamped letter to Customer Services, TV Licensing, Darlington, DL98 1TL. It's the address for cheque payment, so they will accept it.

              Just tell them you have withdrawn their Implied Right of Access, and if they still keep threatening to send the boys round you'll take action under the Malicious Communications Act 1988.

              That will stop them hassling you ! In any case, they do not have any right to enter your property without a search warrant.

          2. John Robson Silver badge

            Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

            >>I have spent several years ignoring the TVL letters sent to me on a ridiculously frequent basis...

            >If the frequency starts to bother you, just answer one. I now get just one email every four years which

            >I think simply exists for people to perjure themselves should they get caught out.

            I did answer one - hence ignoring the remainder.

            That was after doing the online declaration as well...

        2. TonyJ Silver badge

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          "No you don't..."

          Oh really?

          "A TV Licence is a legal permission to install or use television receiving equipment to watch or record television programmes as they are being shown on TV or live on an online TV service, and to download or watch BBC programmes on demand, including catch up TV, on BBC iPlayer. This could be on any device, including TVs, desktop computers, laptops, mobile phones, tablets, games consoles, digital boxes, DVD, Blu-ray and VHS recorders. This applies regardless of which television channels a person receives or how those channels are received. The licence fee is not a payment for BBC services (or any other television service), although licence fee revenue is used to fund the BBC."

          Taken from: https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/about/foi-legal-framework-AB16

          It then continues:

          "It is an offence to watch or record television programmes as they are being shown on any channel and on any broadcast platform (terrestrial, satellite, cable and the internet) or download or watch BBC programmes on demand, including catch up TV, on BBC iPlayer without a valid TV Licence."

          I am pretty sure they updated this to catch people in your exact case.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

            Why not just have an electronic devices tax?

          2. King Jack
            Thumb Down

            Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

            And yet the BBC ran a campaign several years ago pointing out that they made unique programs because of the unique way they are funded. The TV tax is a payment to the BBC, don't believe the spin. If the BBC are so good why don't they go subscription like sky? I mean idiots shell out for Sky crap so why not for the BBC?

            People pay for Sky because they want to. People pay the BBC because they have to and are forced to do so under threat of a criminal record. The BBC should put up or shut up. I'll never give the BBC a penny. After the way they discriminate against women (low pay) and shield kiddy fiddlers. They pay millions to key 'talent' and believe they need to win ratings over ITV. They should in competition with nobody.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

            "watch or record television programmes" might be where someone would complain there is no "Netflix channel" on any terrestrial or satellite broadcaster serving the UK, so the service does not meet the normally understood terms of being a television service.

            Material is, as a consequence, not a television programme, but more akin to some video podcast, such as can be viewed on YouTube and other platforms, and is "on demand" without necessarily having a scheduled time for "broadcast". I think it is true to say that there's no "oversight" of content on Netflix or YouTube by UK regulators (Ofcom or whatever), as their services are not based in the UK.

            I think I'll set up a subscription service for porn VOD based outside the UK...

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

              Bet you still need to pay a fee for that, you may as well pay for the real thing.

          4. TheTor

            Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

            "A TV Licence is a legal permission to install or use television receiving equipment to watch or record television programmes as they are being shown on TV or live on an online TV service, and to download or watch BBC programmes on demand, including catch up TV, on BBC iPlayer. This could be on any device, including TVs, desktop computers, laptops, mobile phones, tablets, games consoles, digital boxes, DVD, Blu-ray and VHS recorders. This applies regardless of which television channels a person receives or how those channels are received. The licence fee is not a payment for BBC services (or any other television service), although licence fee revenue is used to fund the BBC."

            Highlighted the important bits. Its not for using a TV, its to watch live TV, and live streamed content. Not non-BBC on demand content.

            "It is an offence to watch or record television programmes as they are being shown on any channel and on any broadcast platform (terrestrial, satellite, cable and the internet) or download or watch BBC programmes on demand, including catch up TV, on BBC iPlayer without a valid TV Licence."

    6. inmypjs Silver badge

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      I coughed the 147 quid 2 days ago - I sure as hell would not choose to fund the BBC if I had any real choice.

      What it currently produces and the way it is run means I would be happy to see it crawl into a corner an die.

    7. Zmodem

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      no chance of me ever watching the BBC, its for brain dead people, every program is mundane, if they have anything intelligent on it, its all dumbed down for 11 year olds who watch eastenders to understand it, i have'nt watched nothing on the BBC for 20 years, and it is all deleted off of my freeview channel list

      should'nt need to pay for something you care nothing about

      1. MOV r0,r0

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        no chance of me ever watching the BBC, its for brain dead people, every program is mundane, if they have anything intelligent on it, its all dumbed down for 11 year olds who watch eastenders to understand it, i have'nt watched nothing on the BBC for 20 years, and it is all deleted off of my freeview channel list

        should'nt need to pay for something you care nothing about

        Be careful what you wish for: if we ask gov to abolish the Licence Fee they'll just add the sum to income tax.

        TV-free for 20+ years here too and neither do I pay, if El Reg mucks this arrangement up I'll be annoyed!

        1. Zmodem

          Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

          "Be careful what you wish for: if we ask gov to abolish the Licence Fee they'll just add the sum to income tax."

          that won't happen, the TV channels pay OFCOM to use the freeview spectrum out of the money earned from advertising

          1. Zmodem

            Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

            "I find it bizarre that people are willing to pay Sky a minimum of £25 a month (and still have to watch adverts) yet complain about paying the BBC less than half that."

            SKY has stuff to watch after spending £1bn a year, with sky atlantic etc

            BBC has £4.3bn and has nothing to watch, which is better off being spent in the shops, and fixing the NHS

      2. Anonymous Cow Herder

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        Are you sure that "dumbed down for 11 year olds" isn't about your level ?

        "i have'nt watched nothing on the BBC for 20 years" -> "I haven't watched anything on the BBC for 20 years" reads much better. My 10 year old wouldn't have made those grammatical errors.

        I suspect you may be trolling.

    8. TVU Silver badge

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      "Just try watching the sh!te on the other channels, peppered by adverts, and you'll soon turn back to the Beeb"

      Not only that, those same pro-Murdoch, anti-BBC whingers will almost certainly whinge even more when they find out that the alternative to the TV licence is a broadcasting charge levied on every property so as to stamp out licence fee evasion.

      1. aks Bronze badge

        Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

        Shades of Poll Tax.

        The amount of people with no TV who would simply refuse to pay such a tax would approach 100%.

        It's much more likely that the government would give money to the BBC out of general taxation which would rise to compensate or simpler still by adding to the country's annual deficit.

    9. Halfmad

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      I watch on demand only, the only reason I don't mind the TV tax is that I really like Radio 2 and 4 and listen to both daily.

    10. ad47uk

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      I do not pay the TV tax, at least someone who prints it for it is, well done the Register.

      I watch Netflix, some stuff on you Tube and I can still legaly watch catch up from the commercial channels.

      so plenty for me to watch without paying for the BEEB.

    11. jasper pepper

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      You speak for yourself not me. My eyeballs, my choice.

    12. Defiant

      Re: If you have issues with the Telly Tax...

      Fine, those who want it should be paying for it them, leave the rest of us to have a choice

  3. unwarranted triumphalism

    Why should I pay the telly tax if I don't even have a telly? You lot probably want nonsmokers to pay tobacco duty as well don't you?

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Telly Tax

      I was always under the impression that if you don't have a TV or other methods of receiving live TV then you don't need a Telly License. Getting difficult to police with streaming services and 4K or 5K monitors being attached or part of a Computer but there you go.

      I'd rather watch paint dry than some of the pure shite that is on commercial TV that has one poster already said, is peppered with adverts every 10 minutes. Anything that is worth watching gets recorded and the PVR skips over the ads but I'd like to watch stuff like the TdF live it gets really annoying to have all those endless ads for funeral plans, over 50's life assurance, that idot standing on the wing of a bi-plane and other such crap. They are almost enough to drive one to an early grave.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Telly Tax

        all those endless ads for funeral plans, over 50's life assurance, that idot standing on the wing of a bi-plane and other such crap. They are almost enough to drive one to an early grave.

        At least if you do head for an early grave, you can do so in the knowledge that you can pass on a financial legacy to your nearest-and-dearest, and have the funeral planned and paid for.

        1. graeme leggett

          Re: Telly Tax

          And you can write your last will and testament with the free pen.

      2. JamesPond
        Happy

        Re: Telly Tax

        You only need a UK TV license if you want to watch or record any live TV channel, on whatever service it's on, BBC, ITV, Sky, Virgin, Amazon Channels etc. , by whatever methods are available (TV, computer, mobile phone, tablet etc) and you do not use the BBC iPlayer.

        If you only watch catch-up or non-live streaming services not on BBC iPlayer then you do not need a TV license.

        Personally I quite like HIGNFY , QI, Mock the week and Horizon programmes so think that for £2.80 per week it's reasonable value for money.

        http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/tv-licence

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Telly Tax

        > commercial TV that has one poster already said, is peppered with adverts every 10 minutes

        Try watching TV in the USA then... every 3 minutes it feels like.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Telly Tax

          "Try watching TV in the USA then... every 3 minutes it feels like."

          And huge banner ads across the bottom of the screen after the show has restarted too. Not to mention the far more blatant product placement.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I don't belieeeeeve it!

        How prophetic Victor Meldrew was and is. Oh yes, that was the BBC too.

    2. Lee D Silver badge

      Why should you pay for the NHS if you haven't been to the doctor this year?

      Why should you pay for subsidies for telecoms connections to poor rural households when you have plenty of money / don't use a phone / live in a city?

      Why should you pay for pavement repairs when you drive everywhere?

      Why should you pay for street lighting when you carry a torch if you go out at night.

      Why should you pay for a police force if you don't commit crimes or get burgled?

      Why should you pay for people to monitor riverwater when you don't even fish?

      Why should you pay for schools if all your kids are grown up?

      ...

      Taxes are paid, a small amount by all, to pay the large amounts for the few. That's how they work.

      To be honest, I'd be quite happy to scrap TV licensing and actually just tax TV purchases. Literally put a 10% import / sales tax on new TV's. Problem solved. No complicated paperwork, no real evasion of it, easy to enforce (just tax the importers/manufacturers like you do for all kinds of things anyway), and then put the funds. Bigger, luxury TV's with all the knobs on would be charged more than tiny little screens, etc. Or even a tax on streaming services, there's no reason you couldn't tax Netflix/Amazon Prime/Google Play/etc. or subscription providers (Virgin, Sky, etc.) and make them increase their prices to reflect that.

      The administration, legislation and enforcement of such licensing must cost me more than the BBC ever sees from my paying it. And I've lived without a TV for many years in the past, I didn't miss any of it. It's now literally the "something to watch while eating tea" phase of my life, and anything I do watch is purchased streams/DVDs of old shows and very, very rarely anything new.

      When the tax rule is anything more complicated than "some percentage of an amount we collect anyway", without lots of disclaimers, exceptiosn and differences, the administrative costs just don't make it worthwhile. "10% on every new TV sold" is easy to implement, collect, enforce and prove evasion of. But they should have done it a year pre-digital, and THEN they could have raked in enough to keep the BBC going for 10 years on that.

      1. DaLo

        "To be honest, I'd be quite happy to scrap TV licensing and actually just tax TV purchases. Literally put a 10% import / sales tax on new TV's. Problem solved. "

        Most TVs are around the £300 mark. So that's a tax of £30 for a TV that will last say 5 years.

        Your Tax will raise £6 per year leaving a shortfall of about £141.

        The Licence fee brings in £3.7billion per year.

        There are about 27m TVs in the UK. If they last 5 years then the Tax per TV would have to be £685 per set. This could be a tax of 200% on the average TV. Combine that with the fact that people wouldn't then replace their TVs until they were kaput, and they'd also be a massive repair and secondhand market and you could easily see the 5 year renewal become 10 year or more.

        You're now looking at a tax of perhaps £1,500 which would exacerbate the problem more and no-one could ever afford a new TV and everyone would just use a PC or buy them form Europe (While still in the free market).

        So do you then Tax every PC as well? That'll go down well.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @Lee D

        Wise words, well put...and as such, probably f***-all chance of ever being put into legislation by any government.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @ Lee D

        Why should you pay for schools if all your kids are grown up?....et al

        Your examples are all essential services mostly provided or regulated by a monopoly provider. Independent provision exists in some of your examples but (as you well know) that isn't for the same universal, free at point of use service.

        And that's why your argument is rubbish - the Beeb don't do anything that is or requires a natural monopoly, they provide regulation, they don't manage the transmission monopoly, and (no matter what you claim about the "quality" of the Beeb) there are independent broadcasters of good quality. And unlike those services that are tax funded, the Beeb is not free at point of use. You pay if you use the service, (along with a minority who don't use it, but are unfortunate enough to be caught in the scope of "owning and using a TV, or watching iPlayer"). But it is a selective tax - it can be legally avoided, unlike the unhypothecated taxes that go to (say) streetlighting or education, and so it isn't really "free at point of use".

        1. sabroni Silver badge

          Re: the Beeb don't do anything that is or requires a natural monopoly

          Agreed. However, the BBC is required by law to be impartial. Commercial stations just have to make a profit and keep their owners happy. That's a pretty big difference and one that I think is worth paying for.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: the Beeb don't do anything that is or requires a natural monopoly

            However, the BBC is required by law to be impartial.

            Is that why its agenda is endless faux diversity handwringing, that it doesn't practice itself? Or why R4 "comedy" programmes are platforms for unfunny twerps whose repertoire of jokes are all about the Conservative party (which is a joke, just not a funny one)? Or why it hasn't done a single piece of big ticket investigative journalism since the Gilligan/Kelly affair, where the government put the screws on the BBC, who caved in like the bunch of lightweights they are?

            The Beeb is about as impartial as Fox News or Russia Today, but unlike those two there's a big gulf between the majority who fund it, and the Liberal People's Republic of Islington for whom the Beeb speak.

            1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

              Re: the Beeb don't do anything that is or requires a natural monopoly

              Is that why its agenda is endless faux diversity handwringing

              Endless is an exaggeration but for an explanation: it's relatively easy (and cheap) to do this kind of tokenism and thus assuage some very vocal critics. But it does carry the risk of alienating rather than engaging others.

              It's also easier to take pot shots at the Tories at the moment because, to many people's surprise, the Labour Party has largely managed to unite behind Corbyn and his unfeasible but popular policies. The pendulum will no doubt swing back the other way in time.

              The Beeb is about as impartial as Fox News or Russia Today…

              This is hyperbolic nonsense.

              1. MOV r0,r0

                Re: the Beeb don't do anything that is or requires a natural monopoly

                Labour Party has largely managed to unite behind Corbyn

                Nope, he has achieved popularism but he's leading the most divided Labour Party there has ever been.

            2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: the Beeb don't do anything that is or requires a natural monopoly

              "Or why R4 "comedy" programmes are platforms for unfunny twerps whose repertoire of jokes are all about the Conservative party"

              Are you too young to remember when Radio 4 "comedy" programmes were platforms for unfunny twerps whose repertoire of jokes were all about the Labour party?

          2. inmypjs Silver badge

            Re: the Beeb don't do anything that is or requires a natural monopoly

            "the BBC is required by law to be impartial."

            So why are they not in prison?

          3. MOV r0,r0

            Re: the Beeb don't do anything that is or requires a natural monopoly

            Agreed. However, the BBC is required by law to be impartial. Commercial stations just have to make a profit and keep their owners happy. That's a pretty big difference and one that I think is worth paying for.

            Sky News do a great job and arguably outpaced the Beeb some time ago. MP's expenses, the biggest political scandal of my generation, was broken by The Telegraph. Meanwhile the Beeb quash Jimmy Savile stories while bothering the airspace over Cliff Richard's house and there are certainly many individuals within the BBC who are anything but impartial.

            It's not as good as some people think it is, it's certainly not good value (it's just that lots of people pay which get the individual price down) and while it exists it stops something good coming along to replace it.

          4. Cynic_999 Silver badge

            Re: the Beeb don't do anything that is or requires a natural monopoly

            "

            Agreed. However, the BBC is required by law to be impartial. Commercial stations just have to make a profit and keep their owners happy. That's a pretty big difference and one that I think is worth paying for.

            "

            Or looking at that point another way, commercial stations have to keep their viewers happy otherwise hey go out of business. BBC executives can still trouser 7-figure incomes even if the output is so shite that nobody watches it.

          5. Steve 114

            Re: the Beeb don't do anything that is or requires a natural monopoly

            'Impartial'? But they aren't - even if they offend the Lefties exactly as much as the rest, you still have to look at e.g. RT to get the other side of a story. Worse is their active propaganda for PC causes that the majority may choose to resent.

        2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: @ Lee D

          And that's why your argument is rubbish - the Beeb don't do anything that is or requires a natural monopoly

          No, but it makes the discussion ideological. I, and many others, would argue that a public service (and not state) broadcaster is a key element in keeping citizens informed, something that is essential in a functioning democracy. This is not incompatible with free markets to have members that are not entirely motivated by profits; as the success of the BBC / ITV duopoly from 1957 until the early 1990s shows. Along with the football-based success of Sky, ITV became its own worst enemy.

          For examples of an entirely "market-based" approach you can look at newspapers or social media: chasing market share at all costs combined with the exponential rise of partisan echo chambers.

          So the calls from politicians (of all colours) to do something about the BBC are almost always ideologically motivated and why the charter should occasionally be reviewed but always renewed.

      4. TheTick

        @ Lee D

        "Taxes are paid, a small amount by all"

        Ho ho ho.

        Last financial year I was taxed 35% from my salary alone. Total, not marginal (I include employers NI as well because, yes, that is a tax on the employee despite the name). Add on to that council tax, car tax, VAT and all the rest and it could well be in the 40-45% range or more. My salary was above average but only a bit above the 40% rate so hardly rolling in dough.

        40-45% of a slightly above average earner's annual pay is not "a small amount".

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @TheTick - Last financial year I was taxed 35% from my salary alone. Total, not marginal (I include employers NI as well because, yes, that is a tax on the employee despite the name).

          Not a higher rate taxpayer then... My figure is 47%.

          1. TheTick

            "Not a higher rate taxpayer then... My figure is 47%."

            Not anymore (just made redundant), but I was then (just above it).

            It's quite possible I have forgotten to add some of the many other taxes they hit us with so I can quite believe your figure is correct.

        2. Anonymous Cow Herder

          "40-45% of a slightly above average earner's annual pay is not "a small amount"."

          Try employing someone to collect your bins privately, let alone a security guard, a teacher and a doctor. I would imagine anyone unfortunate enough to require chemotherapy would receive more benefit from the NHS than they pay in taxes. Want to swap places with them ?

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        RE: Lee D - tax on TVs

        Putting tax on TV sets themselves would be interesting, given that once you reach a certain age you don't need to pay for the TV licence.

        There'd need to be system in place whereby you can buy your telly tax-free if you show your pension book. Pensioners could start up a black market in selling on TVs that hadn't had telly tax paid at time of purchase

        1. MOV r0,r0
          Joke

          Re: RE: Lee D - tax on TVs

          There'd need to be system in place whereby you can buy your telly tax-free if you show your pension book.

          Old people got all the money!

      6. Roland6 Silver badge

        Taxes are paid, a small amount by all, to pay the large amounts for the few. That's how they work.

        This is the real problem with the TV licence, it is perhaps the only form of taxation where currently all monies are collected independently of HMRC and are reinvested in TV services and specifically the BBC.

        However, given the TV Licence is fundamentally a tax and government is in need of ways to increase revenue without increasing taxation. The question has to be whether the government really will abolish the TV Licence and allow the BBC to become funded by other means, or whether they will allow the BBC to be funded by other means, but retain the TV Licence revenues and bring the collection process in-house...

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
          Stop

          However, given the TV Licence is fundamentally a tax

          It most certainly and fundamentally isn't a tax.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            If not a tax then what is it?

            A tax (from the Latin taxo) is a mandatory financial charge or some other type of levy imposed upon a taxpayer (an individual or other legal entity) by a governmental organization in order to fund various public expenditures.

            from Wikipedia

    3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      It's not a tax, it's a licence fee. Tobacco duty is that the level of this is set by the government and the government can do what they want with it: it's supposed to be spent on the increased medical care that smokers need but basically the government can and does do what they want with it.

      The licence fee, while negotiated with parliament, goes to the BBC and this is the best way to provide an element of independence and objectivity for the media, above and away stupid attempts to be "fair and balanced" by treating all idiots equally. With financial independence the BBC acts as an anchor for the rest of the broadcast media to measure itself against and compete with. The BBC isn't perfect so commercial operators can compete with it over both quality and ratings.

      Arguments about technology are wilfully designed to miss the point: the mixed market of British broadcast media: giving people what they want isn't the same as giving them a choice.

      1. stu 19

        Ha, the revenue for tobacco duy is about 6bn and the increased NHS costs are a bout 2bn. That's the real reason smoking is just not banned outright.

    4. ad47uk

      If you do not have a TV you do not have to pay, in fact even if you have a Tv you do not have to pay as long as you do not watch live Tv or use Iplayer for T.V.

      you can still use Iplayer for radio,

  4. disgustedoftunbridgewells Silver badge

    Two points.

    I don't watch the BBC and I don't want to pay for other people's entertainment.

    Secondly, men are more likely than women to tell people trying to get into their house to sod off.

    1. wolfetone Silver badge

      "Secondly, men are more likely than women to tell people trying to get into their house to sod off."

      You haven't met my mother.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "You haven't met my mother."

        You sure about that? Son...

        1. wolfetone Silver badge

          "You sure about that? Son..."

          Da.... Dad? I thought you were dead?

          WHERE'S THE F**KING MONEY YOU OWE MOM?!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "Da.... Dad? I thought you were dead?

            WHERE'S THE F**KING MONEY YOU OWE MOM?!"

            I just popped out to get some milk and the local shop didn't have any.

            I'll be back soon, I just need some money for the flight back

      2. katrinab Silver badge

        "Secondly, men are more likely than women to tell people trying to get into their house to sod off."

        You haven't met my mother.

        Or me.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        ... or my mother in law.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      More likely to be that women are more likely to be at home when the salesman calls and it is the one who answers the door who gets prosecuted.

  5. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Tom 7 Silver badge

      Re: Telly Tax Is Value For Money

      The BBC's main problem is Murdoch complaining about competition and demanding the BBC produces shit. The tories will be in a quandary tho as normally they'd love any opportunity to shut it down but now the BBC news is pretty much their puppet and they'd be doomed without it.

      1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

        Re: Telly Tax Is Value For Money

        Personally, I think they should do the same as Ch4 and put their archive on iPlayer, not just stuff that's aired recently.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Telly Tax Is Value For Money

      "What the BBC could do is transmit the back catalogue of programs in the dead time of BBC1 and BBC2. Why they transmit BBC News on BBC1, which is a repeat - BBC1, BBC1 HD, BBC News, BBC News HD - 4 copies. Utter waste."

      For fucks sake! You're encouraging more repeats of Dad's Army... We should be entitled to a refund every time that utter shite is repeated.

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: For fucks sake!

        Stupid boy.

      2. Dominion

        Re: Telly Tax Is Value For Money

        10 down votes - unbelievable!

        Are you really all Dad's Army fans?? It's was vaguely amusing 40 years ago when they last made a new episode, but come on!

        1. MOV r0,r0

          Re: Telly Tax Is Value For Money

          Are you really all Dad's Army fans?? It's was vaguely amusing 40 years ago when they last made a new episode, but come on!

          It's largely about class and hence never gets old.

        2. TRT Silver badge

          Re: Telly Tax Is Value For Money

          Well you see, the thing about down votes, you see is that you're bound to get them, you see.

          Because they don't like an up-thumb.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
            Thumb Up

            Re: Telly Tax Is Value For Money

            "Because they don't like an up-thumb."

            Don't panic! Don't panic!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Telly Tax Is Value For Money

      The late night OU programs were educational. I learnt stuff on there despite having come in from the pub. Running programs about coding, IT and STEM may help get this country out of it's hole where all we can do is buy into the drivel supplied by the US commercial channels.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "back catalogue of programs"

    Most back catalogues are now on the streaming services, Dr Who for example is on Netflix currently.

    1. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

      Re: "back catalogue of programs"

      Netflix would have paid handsomely for the material they licenced from the BBC back catalogue. However, that revenue stream goes into BBC Worldwide, and not Aunty Beeb, hence we still have to pay a licence fee.

      It could be interesting to see how the numbers stacked up if income from selling shows overseas was used to offset not having a licence fee.

      1. graeme leggett

        Re: "back catalogue of programs"

        BBC Worldwide money is already used by the BBC for making programmes.

        Eg BBC America co-production credits on some programmes including Dr Who and Top Gear if I recall

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "back catalogue of programs"

        Where does the money go in BBC Worldwide?

        It seems the BBC use pubic money to pay private production companies to provide output that is then sold.

        Who profits from this?

        I want to keep the BBC but do wish it were truly independent of commercial and political bias and not some kind of PC La La Land.

  7. MotorcyclesFish

    This all seems quaint and amusing

    From the perspective of one who has been disengaged for some years from the idea of TV watched when they want to send it out, rather than when I want to watch it.

    With plenty of high-quality subscription streaming services and some cracking educational channels on YouTube (the likes of Tom Scott, Feature History, Ten Minute History and Minute Earth), I can't imagine why anyone would feel the need to still have a licence like that. The BBC is still chucking out quality content available elsewhere - one of my favourites, Orphan Black, is quite clearly announced as from the BBC before each episode starts on Netflix - and it seems to me that the broadcast delivery method and its associated tax are now obsolete, even if those engaged in it haven't realised yet.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This all seems quaint and amusing

      You-tube content is far better than commercial TV. When I do occasionally see TV, I'm shocked at how little content is repeated within a single show. Add in the trailers for the program, and it gets really quite tedious.

      1. BongoJoe

        Re: This all seems quaint and amusing

        The BBC lost it for me when they fill in the first two or three minutes (the bit before the first advert break when they flog it to BBC America) with a preview of what's coming up in the rest of the programme.

        There's no need for that. We'll come to that in due course.

        1. BongoJoe

          Re: This all seems quaint and amusing

          Oh, and also the bit at the end of the programme: the one that's telling us what's coming next week.

          Again, no need to tell us because if your programme was decent enough we'd remember to tune in and watch next week. I'd rather that time were spent on actual content.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: This all seems quaint and amusing

            It's to catch people tuning in to watch the next programme in the schedule

  8. Tezfair

    high % women?

    Most likely reason is women in households do the day to day paperwork. In my house the license is in the wifes name so I don't think there is anything to read into the high % being one sex over another.

    1. Commswonk Silver badge

      Re: high % women?

      Rather odd this...

      Women under - represented in the boardroom? Result; complaints.

      Women over - represented in TV Licencing prosecutions? Result; complaints.

      Raise this on El Reg? Likely outcome - downvotes.

      1. 's water music Silver badge

        Re: high % women?

        Rather odd this...

        and while we are raising conundrums, my oven is electric and gets hot but my fridge (also electric) is cold. How does that fucking work?

        1. MJI Silver badge

          Re: high % women?

          Pumping the heat from the fridge to the oven.

      2. inmypjs Silver badge

        Re: high % women?

        I said the first time this issue came up.

        Single parent household living on benefits can't afford TV licenses and will be over represented. Those households will mostly be headed by women.

        I don't find a large proportion of those prosecuted for TV license violation being female at all surprising.

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: high % women?

          I don't find a large proportion of those prosecuted for TV license violation being female at all surprising.

          However, for some that doesn't mean TPTB shouldn't be doing something about it...

          Caroline Levesque-Bartlett, an anti-Telly Tax campaigner, told The Register at the time of our investigation: “The David Perry Review brought this gender imbalance to light to Parliament in July 2015, and nothing has changed since.”

          ...

          "Sorry madam you can't have a TV licence in your name, we've filled our quota of women holders, is there a man in the house who could hold the licence for you?..."

          "Madam you don't have a TV licence, because I've already caught 14 women this week, I can only catch men for the rest of this week; I'll visit you next week"

    2. CustardGannet

      Re: high % women?

      Loathe as I am to ever say anything in defence of Crapita, one can hardly use the statistic as evidence of sexist bias on their part.

      The vast majority of people prosecuted for football hooliganism are men, does this indicate some anti-male bias on the part of the police ?

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The BBC should be made a subscription service.

    That way all those people who think it's worth it can pay for it and enjoy it. While all the people who don't want it, don't have to subsides those who do. If the content really is worth it then they shouldn't have any problem making enough money.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      @AC

      Unfortunately that wont happen because the delusion will be shattered. Simply people have to pay the BBC and complain against it. Yet people voluntarily part with money to pay for extra channels (sky/virgin/etc) which come littered with adverts.

      That alone demonstrates the desire and value of the extra channels while the BBC forces people to pay it.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    People keep saying how much they get hassled by capita when they dont have a tv licence.

    I dont believe it, you simply tell them you dont require one, and they leave you alone for 2 years. Either you are just ignoring any and all of their letters, or you are just lieing.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      @AC

      Thats amazing! They leave you alone for 2 years! To be honest I would prefer they act like any other company and dont hassle me for not using their service. I would also prefer they didnt expect to tax me to use someone elses service instead of theirs!

  11. DontFeedTheTrolls
    Megaphone

    We all pay taxes for things we don't use.

    Simple answer is to add the charge to the Council tax and Commercial rates. Yes, I know you've said you don't have a TV, but tough, as I say, there are lots of things the country provides that we all pay for but never use, so why shouldn't state television be one of them.

    At least its not state controlled state television (you can place your own value on the amount of meddling by government connected people, but it is not state controlled television).

  12. TheTick

    Sigh

    As with every article about the telly tax a horde of commenters pop up telling us we should pay it because it's great value for money, no adverts etc etc.

    So here I am once again saying: If you think it's such great value for money then why are you so afraid of the thought of it no longer being a tax and being subscription instead? Surely plenty of people will pay it?

    The reality is you want other people to pay for the things you use to make it cheaper for you. In which case I'd like to institute a console tax to subsidise my PC gaming, you will support that won't you? No?

    The tax must go (but it won't).

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. TheTick

        Re: Sigh

        "then the PC target is already subsidised"

        Isn't a percent of every console game sale going direct to MS or Sony, which isn't the case with the PC?

        In which case no, we're not subsidised if the Sony/MS tax is more than £3 for Destiny 2 etc.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

          1. TheTick

            Re: Sigh

            "Hi,

            Your claim was that PC sales should be subsidised by Consoles. To quote :"

            Err, I was being facetious you know, I don't really think they should be, just like I don't think the BBC should be.

        2. MJI Silver badge

          Re: Sigh

          Platform fee is about 20%

      2. MJI Silver badge

        Re: Sigh

        Very strange comment about Destiny 2 but every player I have come across has ported their Destiny characters across.

        I do not know of anyone after the PC version.

        Everyone I know is on the PS4 or XB1.

        Oh and they do pay a % to MS and Sony as well.

      3. MOV r0,r0

        Re: Sigh

        Since PC is cheaper, sells vastly less number of units, where the PC has an open and diverse architecture which can cause more work to ensure the games works on it, then the PC target is already subsidised ?

        You overlooked the console title resale value in you calculations Shadmeister.

    2. inmypjs Silver badge

      Re: Sigh

      "no longer being a tax and being subscription instead"

      Because as you know it would have to be much more expensive.

      In some ways I do not object to publicly funded broadcasting, most of the costs are fixed which makes it really cheap when spread across a large subscription base. So cheap it is almost trivial or at least considered a bargain. The problem I have with the BBC is it is run by twats who were appointed by twats. We pay for it but get almost no say in what it produces or how it is run.

      I would like to see the BBC run by a board of say 10,000 license holders selected at random.

      1. TheTick

        Re: Sigh

        "Because as you know it would have to be much more expensive."

        Which is what my follow up point was about. They want people who don't watch BBC to pay so that they spend less. Don't we all want other people to pay for our stuff? Most of us don't get to threaten people with jail unless they comply though.

        Note: I don't pay the telly tax and we don't miss it in our household one bit. Advert free Netflix and Prime are top notch.

      2. MJI Silver badge

        Re: Sigh

        >> The problem I have with the BBC is it is run by twats who were appointed by twats.

        Cohen has gone!

      3. BongoJoe

        Re: Sigh

        I would like to see the BBC run by a board of say 10,000 license holders selected at random.

        I wouldn't like to be the one handing out the bisuits for that board meeting...

    3. Seajay#

      Re: Sigh

      The reason many people don't mind paying the licence fee is the lack of adverts. But that's not the reason we have the licence fee. We have it because it provides a public good; an independent, high quality source of news. That benefits everyone because it allows public debates to start from a shared understanding of reality. That means better community relations and better election results. So it even benefits those who never watch TV. The entertainment shows are there mostly because you need to keep your audience engaged so that they are watching for the important bits and to provide economies of scale.

      The BBC is worth it not for ad free entertainment but to save us from Fox News.

      You playing console games doesn't provide that which is why there is no console tax.

      1. TheTick

        Re: Sigh

        "You playing console games doesn't provide that which is why there is no console tax."

        Many of us do not believe the BBC provides what you say it does, it is not independent, especially from politics, because the charter comes up for renewal every now and then. Also it is not a public good because everything the BBC does can and is provided by private sector businesses, and I am excluded from watching it when I don't pay the licence (as I don't).

        You may prefer the BBC but it isn't a public good. That argument is about 50 years out of date (since ITV started anyway).

  13. steviebuk Silver badge

    Adverts...

    ...is the reason I don't mind the telly tax. Crapita sending out hence men/women is the problem (although I've only ever seen men attempt to collect on the YouTube videos).

    Fly to America a watch some of their channels with the adverts. Lets take a show like Friends for example:

    An advert before, then the small segment before the credits, then an advert, then the credits, then another advert, then the first half, then the adverts and so on.

    I like the BBC due to no fing adverts.

    1. Oddlegs

      Re: Adverts...

      You forgot the adverts in banners over the top of the actual program

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I have no problems with the BBC, I just don't watch it

    I do have problems with is the idea of people turning up at my door bullying me, if the BBC is so good then it should be able to survive without such pressure tactics.

    Lots of people reading this post will automatically assume that I am watch the TV without paying for a license and there in lies the problem. I am not, I have a license to avoid being hassled however the BBC content is IMHO biased rubbish with far too much influence upon the general public. Having seen the "paint your house and make it worth five times as much" programs and the resultant, soon to burst, housing bubble then I would say the cost of the BBC is too high even if your don't buy a license.

    Compare the BBC with say Netflix where I can purchase a months worth of viewing without adverts and without anyone banging upon my door if I don't buy it again next month and all for less than a months worth of TV license. Netflix, I might add, also create their own content and I would say their content quality is higher than the BBC's offerings.

    As to SKY/Murdock I would ban any monopoly on content, without the monopoly then I could buy Netflix in the UK and get the full offering rather than just what the monopoly has missed. People who like sport (god help them) could watch it for a reasonable price. without the monopoly the price for quality content would start coming down to match the reality that production is actually cheaper now than ever before. Without all the people who leech between the artist and the viewer then everything would be better value and stop funding the corruption of our politicians.

  15. tiggity Silver badge

    Selective

    Things I am interested in get recorded on PVR, when I have chance they get watched (this could be much later as I just flick on something whilst eting a meal but don't spend whole evening watching a screen as have a life).

    Looking at the sort of things I have recorded & yet to watch the vast majority are BBC4 & C4, so no issues with licence.

    Obviously peoples views on what is good telly differ - lots of dross on all channels & I would prefer if BBC spent less on "[rime time" junk such as celeb dancing, singing competitions, dreary soaps etc that should (IMHO) be outside of BBC remit, but I am aware some people love that sort of thing so there you go.

    iPlayer does have a great back catalogue of art related stuff (probably not much el Reg crossover interest there!) and other "non mainstraem" stuff, so worth investigating

  16. Confused Vorlon

    It is really easy to opt out now

    It used to be painful, and you got endless letters asking if you might 'be mistaken' and threatening the tv inspectors.

    Now, you fill in a simple form, and re-confirm every two years. You get one letter confirming that you have opted out and reminding you what that means.

    Frankly it is all very civilised.

    (for the record, I don't watch live tv over the air, or over internet)

    1. bob405

      Re: It is really easy to opt out now

      I would urge caution with this approach. All it meant for me was I that I then received intimidating letters with my name on it, rather than "occupier". Additionally they still want to search your property for telly receiving equipment or other "evidence". Capita are not to be trusted and you have no obligation to deal with them.

    2. Gerry 3
      Boffin

      Re: It is really easy to opt out now

      There is no obligation whatsoever to communicate with TV Licensing: they imply that you have to tell them if you don't need a licence but that's not the case. Similarly, they have no right of entry except in the unlikely event that they have a valid search warrant. And mere possession of a TV in the UK does not require a licence, it's how you use it that counts.

      However, if you don't have a licence you'll be hounded with ever increasing ferocity. If so, a letter (from 'The Occupier') withdrawing their Implied Right of Access and threatening action under the Malicious Communications Act 1988 works wonders, and they will leave you alone for ever, not just two years.

  17. jason 7

    I switched off my Freeview box a few weeks ago...

    ....don't watch iPlayer either. I really should cancel that licence.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's not a Tax

    This is not a “tax”, you have no obligation to pay it, watching live broadcast television is not mandatory. I do not have a TV, and the whole concept of wasting hours of time watching whatever shite happens to be getting beamed into my house every evening seems very strange.

    Clearly the future is not live broadcast television, and that’s been the case for many years. As such, the TV License is an archaic and not fit for purpose piece of legislation and requires overhauled to reflect the modern consumption model. Even at that, I don’t have Virgin Media or Sky sending thugs to my house to try and strong arm me into buying their services. They take the very simple measure of encrypting their services. The BBC on the other hand beams its entire content across the airwaves and internet then makes the arrogant assumption that people not paying for their services are criminals.

    If you intend to be legally license free, simply ignore all correspondence from Capita. Close the door on them if they call. Do not give them your name or any details. DO NOT allow them into your home or give them an opportunity to find “evidence”. They have no legal powers and you have no obligation to engage with them at any level. Successful prosecutions are nearly always due gullible people being tricked by the thug on the doorstep into self-incriminating.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Capita are bullys

    10 years paying a licence and one month we were unaware that the direct debit missed due to being overdrawn. Capita came out during work hours and bullied my wife in to 1. Saying she watched a few programs on iPlayer and 2. getting her credit card out to pay for another year including the missed month backlog.

    A month later a summons arrived with the goon stating that he had tested the apparatus and confirms it was used for watching TV while not holding a licence (which was actually a lie as the ariel was unplugged for rewiring and he wasn't allowed over the doorstep)

    The court in question was over 60 miles away despite living within 4 miles of a nearer magistrates court so to take the day off work to fight the case wouldn't really have been worth it so I opted to pay the £250 fine despite no law being broken and then cancelled my licence and made sure for the following 6 years that I legally did not need a licence, I also convinced a handful of other people I know to do the same so I guess I have made my money back and stung them in the wallet a bit but what a bunch of robber barons capita are and what underhanded tactics.

    If the summons had not arrived with a pack of lies I would simply have continued paying my licence as I used to think it was worth it. Only the bullying changed my mind.

  20. Pangasinan Philippines

    And here in Manila

    TV programs are peppered with adverts, sometimes up to 15 minutes (10 minutes is normal) and more than one break an hour. Often ads are repeated in the same break.

    Adverts here are so 70's.Very in your face with product name repeated over and over.

    Mostly milk products and washing detergent.

    I haven't seen UK TV for over two years and don't miss it. BBC radio two is my friend.

    Up votes to all who correctly spelt 'Licence' and not the US version (they don't have telly tax also)

  21. HmmmYes Silver badge

    Ahh ... the great BBC Telly license comments ....

    Lets go through the set, canned responses:

    'BBC - best in the world'

    No its not. It ws OK back in the 70s when noone, anywhere had much choice.

    Netflix + Amazon are serving BBC its arse on a platter a the moment.

    BBC dramas have been terrible.

    ITV is beating the BBC down on drama.

    BBC just puts out thin drivel, derived on whats been popular on ITV (some Downton Abbey ripoff), a comedy where they lifted the cast of CH4's Inbetweeners, GoT (some draongy historical thing that noone watched.

    'no aderts/adverts all the time..'

    Have yo watched the BBC? Every break has an ad for another BBC program or paying he TV license FFS.

    'Only <50p> a day.'

    Netflix and Amazon are cheaper.

    Can I discount my netflix fee from the BBC license?

    The hard truth is that the only people in my family who watch the BBC for anything more than 10 minutes a day are my parents, who get a free license.

    My kids dont watch broad telly. Netflix or Youtube.

    I watch ITV about 5h/week.

    BBC - 0, zilch, nadder.

    Being northern, I dont like soaps about cockenees.

    I dont like dancing, so that come dancing thing not an appeal.

    If I want to watch Dr Who Ill buy the DVD.

    What the BBC does to be good as is keeping a load of drivelling, public school types in middle management jobs.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Anything that gets rid of EastEnders is fine by me.

      No wonder this country is depressed if it watches that rubbish.

  22. TVU Silver badge

    "BBC Telly Tax petition given new Parliament debate date"

    Are these whingeing petitioners the same permanently angry curmudgeons who also voted for Brexit?

  23. scrubber
    Pirate

    All encompassing flat tax

    Since it covers iPlayer shouldn't we add the tax license to all mobile and broadband subscriptions too?

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: All encompassing flat tax

      "Since it covers iPlayer shouldn't we add the tax license to all mobile and broadband subscriptions too?"

      If you watch iPlayer live or catchup via mobile or BB then you need a licence already, even if you don't have a TV. That new clause came in last year and was widely publicised. It even got an article all of it's own on this very website. And before you mention it, no, you don't need a licence to own or use a TV. You just need a licence to watch or record "live" or "near live" broadcast tv or live/catchup iPlayer, whatever the device used to watch it on.

      1. scrubber

        Re: All encompassing flat tax

        I know, but you miss the point. If I don't watch BBC but do watch other live broadcasts I need to pay for the BBC, couldn't the same logic apply to the internet and iPlayer? i.e. I don't watch iPlayer but I do use other internet services so I should pay for iPlayer.

  24. blue31767

    Why should I pay.

    I haven't watched anything from the bbc for years. Nothing they broadcast has any interest for me. I am not interested in any sport. I watch Netflix, when not watching Netflix I am gaming, I have never used any catch up programmes, they are available on my Xbox but would use up precious memory space. I don't listen to the radio either, not even when driving.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Why should I pay.

      "I watch Netflix,"

      Last time I watched Netflix, about year or so ago on a free 6 month subscription, it was almost entirely US and BBC shows. The final month of the free 6 months didn't get used, we'd seen everything of interest. Has it improved in the last year or so?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why should I pay.

        >Has it improved in the last year or so?

        No

  25. BongoJoe
    Trollface

    How to shut them up

    After being continually pestered, i.e. threatened, for not having a licence despite not having a television in the house I decided to respond to them and turn the tables on them.

    So I rang up the number in Darlington that was on the top of the very red and angry looking letter and asked the lady, "Can you see our address on your screen?"

    "Yes"

    "Right, where we live we're right at the end of the Llŷn Peninsula. We can't receive any UK terrestial signal and we don't have Sky or anything else like that. In fact, the only television signal we can receive is from the Republic of Ireland, which we can see on a clear day. Could you clarify who we should pay for our licence; yourselves or those in Ireland?"

    "Er, we'll get back to you."

    They didn't.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How to shut them up

      >Right, where we live we're right at the end of the Llŷn Peninsula.

      Great campsite there at Aberdaron.

  26. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Don't call it a tax

    You'll only give the Treasury ideas. They'll call it a hypothecated tax. Who would want such a tax with such a nasty name? So much nicer to just take it into general taxation and then HMG can fund the Beeb directly....

    The licence may not be an ideal way of funding the Beeb, especially when operated by Crapita, but the alternatives - ads or direct government control - are much, much worse.

    1. Gerry 3
      Facepalm

      Re: Don't call it a tax

      You've forgotten the really obvious alternative - subscription.

      No ads, no direct government control.

  27. Anonymous Coward
  28. Alt C

    Its odd - I had thought this being an IT site it would be populated by reasonably intelligent people instead I see commentards (particulaly on the right for some reason) spouting off about the bias of the BBC.

    I've friends on both sides of the fence and they both complain about the bias in the BBC which to me suggests they are getting it pretty much spot on.

    I was also brought up to challenge my own beliefs and that everyone puts a spin on things - so I get news from the BBC, Sky, C4 and Fox - and I find ideas that are valid on all of them - perhaps if you regard channel n as biased you could challenge your own beliefs and watch it a bit - you never know you may find some interesting ideas in there - unless of course you know your views are so pure and correct anything else is wrong and has nothing to offer you?

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      @ Alt C

      "Its odd - I had thought this being an IT site it would be populated by reasonably intelligent people instead I see commentards (particulaly on the right for some reason) spouting off about the bias of the BBC."

      You thought them intelligent until they disagreed with you. How nice of you. Actually witnessing such bias not good enough for you? My favourite example being the buck that was shot and discarded at the side of the road by some uncaring hunter. The story was vastly rewritten by the end of the day (same article being edited without pointing out the huge changes) to a fully licensed legal shoot with good reason.

      My second amusement being the constant articles supporting wind farms and the fantastical figures for a considerable time. Eventually and late to the party the BBC finally wrote a pathetic article just about accepting they dont produce as much energy as quoted.

      "unless of course you know your views are so pure and correct anything else is wrong and has nothing to offer you?"

      See your argument of assuming people are unintelligent because they disagreed with you.

      1. Alt C

        Re: @ Alt C

        @codejunky

        On the contrary not once did I say those who disagree with me were unintelligent. I relish discussions with those who disagree with me, especially these back and forths we sometimes have.

        Back when I went to university deep in the mists of time, those of us studying science were obliged to take courses in philosophy and ethics - one of the things we were taught was to always question our beliefs and not let them blind us - in this case just because you see bias in a news outlet you still need to examine it and use it to question where your thoughts come from lest you become blind to alternate ideas and fall into the trap of purity of thought - c.f confirmation bias and Dunning–Kruger effect.

        I was just surprised so many here who are obviously well educated would be so dismissive of any source of information that didn't agree with their own internal bias

        Yes I disagree with the BBC stance on windmills but that led me onto challenging my beliefs on why they won't work and indeed I found out there is some interesting work going on on energy storage that may make them more viable - not the panacea the greens think they are but not a complete dead donkey in the right energy mix.

        Please don't go down the road of 'oh let's use this example to show bias I can do the same with all news sites - they all have an agenda to push - if you wish to see a right wing example of articles being changed on a daily basis or pulled completely without noting any change look at the Daily Mail website for a week.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @ Alt C

          "On the contrary not once did I say those who disagree with me were unintelligent"

          I had thought this being an IT site it would be populated by reasonably intelligent people instead

          My mistake? Maybe I misinterpreted that?

          "I relish discussions with those who disagree with me, especially these back and forths we sometimes have"

          I am glad to hear. Same here.

          "Please don't go down the road of 'oh let's use this example to show bias"

          Clear examples which very much held the BBC's bias. Such bias being unquestioning belief in certain renewables and the more questionable climate claims when it was the fashion and a severe incapability to think concerning firearms. Anything can be disproved if we exclude evidence.

          "if you wish to see a right wing example of articles being changed on a daily basis or pulled completely without noting any change look at the Daily Mail website for a week."

          I really dont want to see a right wing example, nor left. This is concerning what some people still somehow believe to be an impartial news source that should be allowed to charge people who dont use nor even care about their service. I dont read the Daily Mail nor do I care about their views. I dont hold anything against people who read it just as I have no problem with people who read the Guardian. I also accept that to get the full picture we often have to look at multiple sources with their own bias (that we must acknowledge) to get the full picture.

          However pointing out the bias of others does not negate the bias of the one we are discussing. I used to like reading the Stephanie Flanders articles and Robert Peston and a few others. And on topics with no major swinging allegiance the BBC can be good at reporting. But when the BBC has a strong cultural bias on the subject it starts spouting like a propaganda site.

  29. Vetis

    Amazon prime (7.99) and netflix (7.49) together = 185 a year. TV license is £145. But with those I also get amazon music, unlimited free delivery, twitch prime. Its so much better value. The BBC seems to be mostly light\reality entertainment, cop shows, news and panel quiz shows. Its only surviving now because of nostalgia for what it used to put out.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Amazon prime video really doesn't have that much content.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @vetis

      "Amazon prime (7.99) and netflix (7.49) together = 185 a year" why would you

      a) have both

      b) watch them every month

      If you really waste that much time on watching video then you need to swap them each month, netflix won't mind. I can go weeks before I find myself with a block of time and a need to vegetate then you can take a month of whichever distributor and cancel it so it doesn't charge you for the next month. If they have more content that you can watch then you might consider taking another month, again they won't have a problem with you changing your mind.

      Here is the thing, you are in control of what and when you watch and you also control when you are willing to pay to watch.

      This control is what you do not get with the BBC, instead you get a percentage of stuff you are willing to watch and far more stuff that you can't stand and yet you still have to pay for it otherwise or some Crapita **** bangs on the door demanding your attention.

      How dare I put myself first,I have a duty to maintain the BBC? screw that, it is my hard earned money and I will spend it upon what I want rather that what they are trying to foist upon me. If they want my money then they need to provide something I am willing to pay for and not 5% of the time but at least 95%. That is what their competition are offering and they offer cheap rubbish made by amateurs instead

  30. poopoo

    Thirty years without TV and I am still getting threatening letters. If I want them to stop I simply have to take the time to give them my data. GIVE them my data. I thought demanding money with menaces was a crime but not if you are part of "the establishment", it seems.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I bet they use Equifax to cross check you.

    2. aks Bronze badge

      "Thirty years without TV and I am still getting threatening letters. If I want them to stop I simply have to take the time to give them my data. GIVE them my data. I thought demanding money with menaces was a crime but not if you are part of "the establishment", it seems."

      On moving into my rented house and receiving a letter addressed to "The Present Occupier" I simply called them and explained that I don't watch live television or use iPlayer. They sent "The Present Occupier" a letter showing that no licence is required.

      I had explained that I had various equipment in the house including screens, DVD players, computers and a smartphone. I have since acquired a Sky box which I use to listen to radio without a subscription. Problem solved.

  31. Andy Livingstone

    Lord Reith

    He knew how to sort out the BBC and about quality -- unlike the current lot.

    For now I'm happy to be over 75 and tell BBC and Capita where to stick their license fee demands.

    Money grabbing is now their National Sport.

  32. Gerry 3
    Facepalm

    The date of 16 October is wrong.

    The Westminster Hall debate will be held on Monday 20 November 2017.

    http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CDP-2017-0172

  33. HmmmYes Silver badge

    Yeah bbc is greay. Channel 5 is cheap porn.

    Last night (Friday) bbc1 offered the one show, followed by a warmed up totp corpses, followed by eastenders then that god awful mrs brown.

    Ch5 offered a 1h documentary on that big french brudge, followed by bethany hughes.

    The bbc is mainly shit, admit it. 80% of its budget goes on junk.

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