back to article UK.gov wants quick Brexit deal with EU over private data protections

The UK government has said it wants an early agreement on a post-Brexit data-sharing deal with the European Union, as well as a continued seat at the table for Blighty's data protection watchdog. In the latest of its position papers for how the UK will extricate itself from decades of EU policy, the government set out what it …

  1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    This broke the bulshitometer by driving it off the scale

    The Tory-run government argued that the UK “starts from an unprecedented point of alignment with the EU”

    No. It does not. UK law has been successfully challenged at the ECJ as inadequate more than once. By Davis himself on one occasion.

    On top of that the ultimate arbiter for what can and cannot be done with Eu citizen's and businesses data is the ECJ.

    I do not see how you can align both of these to the Tory BrExit platform.

    1. Nick Kew Silver badge

      Re: This broke the bulshitometer by driving it off the scale

      EU response: You can stay with us on data protection so long as you commit to accepting the ECJ's supremacy on matters of data protection. And you can appoint a non-voting representative to the panel.

      Any more concessions than that would seem very odd, and one would have to question what price had been paid behind the scenes.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: This broke the bulshitometer by driving it off the scale

        This is of course an exception and in all other matters dealing with Europe, Britain will be able to trade freely while completely ignoring any european rules and regulations

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: This broke the bulshitometer by driving it off the scale

          "This is of course an exception" Just like all the other exceptions we've negotiated - Westminster is sovereign; Brexit is a success! :)

          Naturally, dear Brexiteers, you should just listen to T.Mays words and not trouble yourself with reading the actual agreement. [Aside: I wonder if the Brexit agreement will be a blank sheet of paper just like the Treaty of Rome...]

  2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    IT Angle

    Remeber this is Brexit from the Tory Government perspective.

    "told The Reg that the proposals amounted to “delusional fantasy” is Brexit from everyone else' s perspective.

    It looks like Brexit (according to the UK govt) will be a bit like the Y2K work done in the late 90's.

    Expensive, time consuming and at the end you've made no obvious benefit IOW you've just retained what you already have.

    With 2 differences.

    1) Only the UK "has" to do it, despite the referendum being advisory

    2) It's a negotiation. The EU may have tired of dealing with the data fetishists of the Home Office and their everyone-is-a-criminal-lets-start-a-file-now PoV.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The way I understand it this is the problem.

    We want to agree things and so do the EU.

    However for us to agree things the EU needs to know that we'll follow through with our promises. Currently that's handled by the ECJ but when we leave it won't, therefore the only proof the EU has that we are keeping to our end of all the agreements is our word.

    Why would you give a foreign country that's not legally connected to you access to determine data protection laws (or any other) that effect your group of countries when they could do what they please and are not bound by those laws themselves?

    Someone in government needs to pull their head out of their arse and start sorting this out.

    1. maxfm

      They need us more than we need them

      Sorry - utter rubbish. European companies are beating down the door to their governments DEMANDING they make a deal with us. When it comes to a crunch, we will get what we want - otherwise, we will pull the plug. They need us more than we need them, don't forget we are the most attractive country in europe for tech. People like you, putting the country down, refusing to support democracy - you should be ashamed.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        Sorry - utter rubbish. European companies are beating down the door to their governments DEMANDING they make a deal with us.

        amanfrommars, is that you?

      2. Adair

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        maxfm, I'm sure you are trolling because you sound exactly like a blustering jingoistic xenophobic Colonel Blimp. I think it's the 'They need us more than we need them' that really gives it away. Such a quixotic backward looking view can only come from someone who is completely delusional, living in some invented reality based on the myths of an imperial past (now quite long past), or by someone with a delicious sense of the ironic and the absurd. I do hope it is the latter.

        1. Not also known as SC

          Re: They need us more than we need them

          "maxfm, I'm sure you are trolling because you sound exactly like a blustering jingoistic xenophobic Colonel Blimp"

          Problem is so many people seem to hold these sorts of view it's getting harder to tell the joke posts from the real ones.

        2. Adair

          Re: They need us more than we need them

          Evidently it is not the latter, i.e. 'a delicious sense of the ironic and the absurd'. How disappointing.

          And, for anyone who hasn't encountered David Low's 'Colonel Blimp', I think the esteemed Wikipedia offers a decent insight:

          'Blimp issues proclamations from the Turkish bath, wrapped in his towel and brandishing some mundane weapon to emphasize his passion on some issue of current affairs. Red faced with rage and emotion, his pronouncements are often confused. Blimp's phrasing often includes direct contradiction, as though upon starting the sentence he did not know how the sentence was to end. His initial words were always a part of an emotional catchphrase. For instance: "Gad, Sir! Mr Lansbury is right. The League of Nations should insist on peace — except of course in the case of war.", or: "Gad, Sir! Lord Bunk is right. The government is marching over the edge of an abyss, and the nation must march solidly behind them." Blimp is usually depicted speaking to a cartoon version of David Low, the cartoon's creator, and Blimp's comments are not infrequently directed at the opinions of Lord Beaverbrook, the owner of the newspaper in which the cartoon appeared.[citation needed]

          Blimp was a satire on the reactionary opinions of the British establishment of the 1930s and 1940s. The cartoon was intended to criticize attitudes of isolationism, impatience with the concerns of common people, and a lack of enthusiasm for democracy. These were attitudes which Low, a New Zealander, considered as being common in British politics. Although Low described his character Blimp as "a symbol of stupidity", he lessened the insult to the British ruling class by adding that "stupid people are quite nice".'

          I find, "Gad, Sir! Lord Bunk is right. The government is marching over the edge of an abyss, and the nation must march solidly behind them." particularly apropos. It seems that some things never change.

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        "refusing to support democracy"

        Bearing in mind that this was only an advisory referendum with a very small percentage majority and taking into account the roaring success the current government achieved in the recent election how sure are you that a referendum now would confirm the original?

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: They need us more than we need them

          @ Doctor Syntax

          "Bearing in mind that this was only an advisory referendum with a very small percentage majority and taking into account the roaring success the current government achieved in the recent election how sure are you that a referendum now would confirm the original?"

          Bearing in mind the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory and would be carried out is again another exposing of the remain campaign and how severely rigged the vote was. Quite a heroic victory for leave considering what we all had to contend with (including open and direct threats from the gov).

          But your idea of democracy is interesting. This is the first, repeat first, repeat first vote we have had on our membership of the EU which we were forced into. And even Stockholm syndrome and direct threats wasnt enough to get the desired result. So you propose we should vote again? We have yet to leave and you want to vote again? You lost the vote so want to vote again? You dont like the result so want to vote again. You lost by the rules created by the remain campaign and want to vote again.

          If we apply this idea of democracy then we would be voting a change of government every day before the elected one could get into power because it was the 'wrong' result. I cant say I know of any democracies that use that kind of method. Maybe countries that call themselves Democratic Peoples Republic etc.

          1. maxfm

            Re: They need us more than we need them

            Well said codejunky. The way that the self appointed elites seem to think their opinions are somehow worth more than everyone elses shows exactly why Brexit will be a great thing. A bloodless revolution which will return power to those who it should belong to, us the people.

            businesses have been getting very rich of immigrant labour while our own indigenous population has suffered in silence for too long - but no longer. We want our jobs back, and we want proper services and proper housing. Enough giving everything to foreigners who are only here to take.

            1. John Smith 19 Gold badge

              "We want our jobs back, and we want proper services and proper housing. "

              I call troll.

              No one without a brain disease can keep up that tone and actually believe it.

            2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: They need us more than we need them

              "A bloodless revolution which will return power to those who it should belong to, us the people."

              One outcome is May getting our as far as possible from the ECJ. This removes a layer of protection for the people. Don't be fooled into thinking you're being empowered. You're not.

              It's a good default assumption that any politician who seeks to remove a layer of legal supervision of their activities has something to hide.

            3. Just Enough

              Re: They need us more than we need them

              "A bloodless revolution which will return power to those who it should belong to, us the people."

              Bwah, Ha, Ha, Ha! You think that giving May and her cronies free rein and ultimate power will give power back to the people! Ha, Ha, Ha!

              "businesses have been getting very rich of immigrant labour"

              Ho, Ho, Ho! You think that the Tory Government will do anything to stop businesses getting very rich at the expense of anything! He, He, He!

              Oh my aching sides are splitting. Are you a comedian or just utterly clueless?

              "while our own indigenous population has suffered in silence for too long - but no longer. We want our jobs back""

              Ah.... forget it. You're not joking, you're just one of those people.

          2. Jess

            Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

            In the same section of the manifesto that made it clear the result would be honoured, there was a big commitment to the single market.

            So it is fine to drop one part but not the other is it?

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

              @ Jess

              "In the same section of the manifesto that made it clear the result would be honoured, there was a big commitment to the single market.

              So it is fine to drop one part but not the other is it?"

              Except the EU have already said no to that. If we drop out of the EU then the EU cuts us off. Not shocking nor surprising and since remainers like to point out Cameron lied to us about committing to the result but you seemed shocked he lied to you.

              1. Roland6 Silver badge

                Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

                Except the EU have already said no to that.

                The EU have said no to lots of things, including much of what David Davis has said the UK wants; yet he shows no sign of accepting their word...

                There is only one certainty: we will only know what the Brexit deal really is, when the fat lady sings, as until then everything is open to negotiation; including points that many may perceive as having previously been agreed...

                Ho hum! T.May certainly got one thing right: "Brexit means Brexit" namely Brexit can't be defined before it has been finally agreed (between the EU and UK) as to what Brexit means.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

                  @ Roland6

                  "The EU have said no to lots of things, including much of what David Davis has said the UK wants; yet he shows no sign of accepting their word"

                  Yet again you dont seem to follow. The vote was leave, that is to leave. The EU cant exactly stop us from leaving the EU. The EU can keep saying no, we are leaving regardless of their word. And if they are so incompetent that they cannot negotiate an exit of a member then it wont look good for their negotiating ability will it?

                  "Brexit can't be defined before it has been finally agreed"

                  I would agree with you on that. Except it was a vote to leave the EU so we at least have a baseline to hold the gov to.

                  1. H in The Hague Silver badge

                    Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

                    "Except it was a vote to leave the EU so we at least have a baseline to hold the gov to."

                    Were the voters aware that also meant leaving the single market and the customs union - making international trade more difficult, bureaucratic and expensive? Dropping out of Euratom, Europol, etc., etc.? The question on the ballot paper was misleadingly simplistic.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: the government made it absolutely clear this referendum was not advisory

                      @ H in The Hague

                      "Were the voters aware that also meant leaving the single market and the customs union"

                      Were remain voters aware that the claims of economic doom were nothing like and the 'affects' were actually the very things the BoE and gov have been trying to do since 2008? Were the remain voters aware of what the EU will become (they are still not sure yet) as it cannot survive in its current form? Or that the direct threat made by George Osborne (punishment budget) to the country was just a threat of economic devastation and nothing to do with the practicalities of leaving?

                      The question was simplistic but it was a heavily rigged vote with the 'right' answer which would be a permanent expression of voters opinion and the other answer. But so far this is the nearest to honest choice offered to people and the result was shockingly to leave even under direct threat and extreme propaganda.

      4. MMR

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        "They need us more than we need them, don't forget we are the most attractive country in europe for tech."

        Whaa?

        Where were you last year when HSBC laid off 500+ IT personel in Sheffield and decided to move most of it to Europe and the rest to India?

        Where were you when BBC announced a deal with Accenture who will outsource a lot of their IT to Europe?

      5. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        They need us more than we need them,

        Show me one Eu company that fits that description. I have yet to see one.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: They need us more than we need them

          They need us more than we need them,

          Show me one Eu company that fits that description. I have yet to see one.

          How about Airbus and Rolls-Royce Holdings (the aircraft engine manufacturer, not the BMW subsidiary)?

          1. Lars Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: They need us more than we need them

            "How about Airbus and Rolls-Royce".

            R-R is indeed a company to be proud of but Airbus is a rather different animal to what I think you believe.

            Quoting the Wikipedia (something I would warmly recommend you to use too):

            "Airbus is an European multinational corporation........

            ...The company's main civil aeroplane business is based in Blagnac, France, a suburb of Toulouse, with production and manufacturing facilities mainly in France, Germany, Spain, China, United Kingdom and the United States. Final assembly production is based at Toulouse, France; Hamburg, Germany; Seville, Spain; Tianjin, China, and Mobile, United States."

            "Owner as of September 2016

            France – 11.1%

            Germany – 11.1%

            Spain – 4.2%

            And the rest public (free float)".

            The guys producing wings in the UK (Wales?) are worried and I would guess some Americans are hoping for the best as Airbus uses US made engines too.

          2. Hans 1 Silver badge

            Re: They need us more than we need them

            Airbus -> quite miffed by GCHQ passing on sales info to Boeing, via NSA

            Rolls-Royce Holdings - Airbus is the only one involved with them, Pratt & Whitney and GE have good engines too ...

          3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

            Re: They need us more than we need them

            How about Airbus and Rolls-Royce Holdings

            1. Rolls Royce primary "Eu relationship" is being one of the multiple suppliers for airbus. There other main "sole" supplier is GE. There are also a couple of models where P&W does the engines. However, none of them does the majority today. That is produced by a set of incestuous joint ventures between all major players and some external ones.

            The actual engine choice is done by the airline when placing the order. While some Eu airlines which have chosen Rolls Royce exclusively (very few) will be unhappy about it, it is up to them. Airbus does not care. If anything it may end up happier as it has to integrate one engine LESS and P&W and GE will very happily step in to fill the dual supply hole left by Rolls Royce leaving. There is definitely no issue here as far as Airbus is concerned and the other players will only enjoy RR leaving. Airlines will be annoyed, but if P&W offers them a sweetie their annoyance will be very short lived.

            2. Airbus itself and its factories in South-West England which if memory serves me right produce mostly wings nowdays. While painful in the short term, there will be head over heals competition by all Eu governments to house an alternative factory site in the long term. In fact, Airbus may end up in an overall financial win from relocating this manufacturing due to indirect subsidies and logistical improvements. For example, if it moves the manufacturing to France, it no longer needs to drag them across half of a continent in a Beluga for assembly, etc.

      6. nsld
        Paris Hilton

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        "Sorry - utter rubbish. European companies are beating down the door to their governments DEMANDING they make a deal with us. "

        Yet strangely as I sit in Dublin Airport after another day consulting with a SaaS provider the general consensus is that the UK won't get an adequacy decision and any serious business is already a long way down the road of moving its data into an EU 27 country.

        It will be far easier to store UK data in the EU and watch as the UK government does nothing than it would be to keep it in the UK and find you can't do business when the ECJ does a Schrems and the UK as a third country finds itself out on its arse in a data processing wilderness.

        Enjoy your unicorn riding Maxfm.......

      7. arctic_haze Silver badge

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        Fog in Channel - Continent Cut Off

        1. Nick Kew Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: They need us more than we need them

          Yep. Of course.

          5% of their trade is with us; 50% of our trade is with them (in ballpark terms). And we're more dependent on trade than most, except perhaps the Dutch. Even the big manufacturing nations - like Germany and Italy - have only a tiny fraction of what we have at stake.

      8. Yes Me Silver badge

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        Which plug, exactly, is it that we will pull?

        (Don't bother, I don't seriously expect an answer, because the phrase is meaningless - as the losing party in a 27:1 negotiation, there is no threat we can make that will even raise an eyebrow across the table.)

        Oh, and as for democracy - I'm all for it! That's what the European Parliament is all about, unlike the UK Parliament which rides roughshod over little details like the Brexiteer's lies and fantasies, and which slavishly votes along party lines even when common sense and facts suggest otherwise.

      9. Snorlax
        WTF?

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        @maxfm:"European companies are beating down the door to their governments DEMANDING they make a deal with us."

        No they're not.

        Provide examples please?

      10. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: They need us more than we need them

        They need us more than we need them, don't forget we are the most attractive country in europe for tech.

        When did that happen? I must have blinked. It certainly wasn't that case in the 1990's as Ireland was the preferred place to locate - in part because even then people were uncertain about the UK's dithering over the EU - The UK media, Farage et al have been spouting anti-EU stories for decades. Suspect "the EU" was perceived to be a more politically correct way of perpetuating the myth of the 'natural superiority' of the English over those Continental's; especially the Germans and French.

      11. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        "European companies are beating down the door..DEMANDING they make a deal with us. "

        And you know this how?

    2. Yes Me Silver badge
      Coffee/keyboard

      Someone in government needs to...

      "Someone in government needs to pull their head out of their arse and start sorting this out."

      You must know that the shambles known as the British 'government' is totally incapable of either of those things. Their position is totally illogical, and in any case the EU has repeatedly made it clear that any deals for after Brexit are not open for discussion until the mechanics of Brexit, including paying our bill, have been settled. In fact, if you take the trouble to read Article 50, it's clear: the Article 50 talks continue until the mechanics of withdrawal are settled, and then... they stop. Everything else is left for future diplomatic negotiations between the EU and the ex-member. It seems that the British 'cabinet' has utterly failed to grasp this simple (and disastrous) fact. We must all hope that Parliament throws them out of office next month. It's the only hope left.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ... for the Information Commissioner’s Office to have an “ongoing role ... in EU regulatory fora”

    Certainly. I hear that the attrium of the EU privacy commission could do with some potted plants. Woild that role for the post-brexit UK representative in the EU regulatory fora fit the bill?

  5. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

    It's not complicated...

    As with so many other areas of the Brexit negotiations, it's easy. No 'negotiation' is needed. The UK accepts existing all EU regulations, and writes them into UK law, unchanged, and agrees to incorporate any new EU regulations into UK law, without delay. Obviously, as it won't be a member of the EU, the UK has no role or influence in drafting those regulations. If there is a dispute about whether the UK has done the job correctly, the ECJ (without any UK judge) will rule.

    Do that, and we can happily keep transferring data and doing business with the EU. Why do people find this hard to see?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's not complicated...

      The best outcome here is for as little as possible to change. If we want to carry on trading with them, we'll have to do what they say. And have no influence over their decisions any more. So instead of 'Taking back control' we've basically pissed away any degree of control we had. What a total waste of time and effort. As for "having our cake and eating it"....pfff, Tory fantasy. The Europeans wont let us. We need them, they don't need us, and they know it.

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Trollface

        "So instead of 'Taking back control' we've..pissed away any degree of control we had. "

        Well that might be how any unbiased observer who wasn't a rabid Brexiteer, or wanted to smoke the UKippers, or stop the Conservative party from imploding would see it. But OTOH...

        But..

        But...

        No actually that is pretty much what the UK referendum has done for the UK. The 20% fall in the £ against the $ and May deciding to stomp Labour and massively increase her majority (but didn't) were just icing on the fat cakefull of s**t.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: It's not complicated...

      "Obviously, as it won't be a member of the EU, the UK has no role or influence in drafting those regulations. If there is a dispute about whether the UK has done the job correctly, the ECJ (without any UK judge) will rule."

      And, of course, we'll have "taken back control" as now we're just doing it voluntarily out of the goodness of our hearts. The obvious solution all along.

      Warning: this most might contain traces of sarcasm and irony. Best avoid if you have an allergy.

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: It's not complicated...

      "The UK accepts all existing and future EU regulations, and writes them into UK law, unchanged, and agrees to incorporate any new EU regulations into UK law, without delay. Obviously, as it won't be a member of the EU, the UK has no role or influence in drafting those regulations."

      However, it does provide two fig leaves to the Brexiteers: one of 'sovereignty' and the second the UK are no longer members...

  6. oxfordmale78

    The only way the UK can get a quick deal with the EU about private data protection, is by accepting all existing EU regulations and oversight by the ECJ. Of course more bespoke deals are possible, but they will take longer to negotiate than the year left for Brexit negotiations.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Hard to see how a more bespoke deal is possible.

      It's hard to see the ECJ saying: Dear German bank you can store data on your customers in the EU and be subject to all sorts of strict data protection rules - or store it in the UK with much looser rules and we will be perfectly OK with that.

      It's hard to see why anyone would agree to the UK having looser health / safety / materials etc standards but being allowed equal access

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    That's a new definition of "alignment" then

    The Tory-run government argued that the UK “starts from an unprecedented point of alignment with the EU”, and as such that it should seek a deal that goes beyond existing measures the EU has with non-EU nations.

    Oh really? So the rather long outstanding issues with the retention of personal information and biometrics by law enforcement don't count then?

    Nice try, though, but Home Office needs to significantly turn down the police state dial before that statement approaches anything near reality, and especially with May as PM I can't see that happen - that's where she came from.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: That's a new definition of "alignment" then

      "especially with May as PM I can't see that happen"

      The slight benefit here is that Davis is Brexit Sec. I can't imagine them seeing eye-to-eye over this.

    2. Jack of Shadows Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: That's a new definition of "alignment" then

      Which point is just a valid about the United States, just more so I believe. I think we're doing more than GCHQ but... who the frag knows. So whenever the latest dodge about privacy provisions around EU data is done by the US, both corporate and TLA's, goes up before the ECJ I expect to see it nuked. Again and again.

  8. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    Diversionary tactics

    All these papers that the government is producing at the moment are supposed to divert from the distinct lack of progress in the negotiations which the government will seek to blame the European Commission for. The fact is that government is petrified that when (and there is no if about this) it agrees that it will have to continue to make payments to the EU budget and guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK, there will be a revolt by the backbenchers and presumably a leadership challenge by that toad, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

    The UK has now got just over a year to get everything settled so that the other member states can debate and vote on any proposed deal. Odds on some kind of "provisional deal" that will merely cement the status quo?

    1. graeme leggett

      Re: Diversionary tactics

      As the ECJ is one of those "red lines" that current government (or just Mrs May) has sworn they will fight to the very death over, we can probably expect much more obfuscation over the matter.

      Up until some agreement is made that UK gov will swear blind means that the ECJ is in no way arbiter of what is right or wrong with UKs dealings with EU but most everyone will point out is in fact the case.

      And the Daily Mail will either put up a triumphant front page likening HM Gov's actions to a mixture of Waterloo and Second El Alamein or a denouncement of aforesaid government as national traitors deserving of being strung up (though not in front of a petrol station as that's what Johnny foreigner would do)

    2. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Diversionary tactics

      @ Charlie Clark

      "the distinct lack of progress in the negotiations which the government will seek to blame the European Commission for"

      And so we all should. Article 50 wasnt written by us. It is an EU procedure to extract a member who voluntarily leaves the voluntarily group. Of course we know they didnt write it with sincerity as it was thought nobody would use it. I am wondering if the gov is just giving as good as it has got so far by taking the piss a little. Cant say I would blame them.

      "The fact is that government is petrified that when (and there is no if about this) it agrees that it will have to continue to make payments to the EU budget and guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK"

      I find this an odd argument. There is no reason we would give them any ongoing payments, only what we already owe them which is the direct result of being in the EU and the cost so far (about £36bn or something) which is a strong argument to leave. As for rights of EU citizens, that was already agreed if reciprocal. Instead the EU waves its willy thinking its impressive then sulks when we laugh. The idea that their citizens come under their court even outside their jurisdiction makes more argument to leave.

      "The UK has now got just over a year to get everything settled so that the other member states can debate and vote on any proposed deal."

      Not just the UK. The EU really needs to pull itself together if it wants to sort something out and stop messing about. I dont understand how people can complain about our negotiators having no papers in front of them or how slim this document is. We are leaving and that is it. We are open to a trade deal or whatever but we have no reason to drop trow and bend over. The sooner the EU gets that the sooner this can be taken seriously.

      1. David L Webb

        Re: Diversionary tactics

        "And so we all should. Article 50 wasnt written by us. It is an EU procedure to extract a member who voluntarily leaves the voluntarily group. "

        Actually it was written by veteran british diplomat John Kerr — now Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

        http://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-article-50-lord-kerr-john-kerr/

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Diversionary tactics

          @ David L Webb

          "Actually it was written by veteran british diplomat John Kerr — now Lord Kerr of Kinlochard"

          Well pointed out. I cant say I consider it as us writing it when he was the secretary-general of the European Convention. He left the foreign office by that point and as far as I am aware he was not working for us. It amazes me how chaotic this procedure seems to be and I am amused he pointed out the EU cannot hold up negotiations demanding payment first.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Diversionary tactics

            ... and as far as I am aware he was not working for us

            Is that a royal "we" you are using here, perchance?

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: Diversionary tactics

              @AC

              "Is that a royal "we" you are using here, perchance?"

              That would be UK as he was working for the EU at the time in his capacity at the EU not the UK.

          2. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Diversionary tactics @codejunky

            re: I am amused he pointed out the EU cannot hold up negotiations demanding payment first.

            And if you were following the negotiations you'll know the EU aren't demanding payment first.

            However, they are quite correctly wanting assurances that the UK is prepared to pay the bill that will be finalised as part of the negotiations...

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: Diversionary tactics @codejunky

              @ Roland6

              "And if you were following the negotiations you'll know the EU aren't demanding payment first."

              Extremely quick search-

              http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/833633/Brexit-news-EU-Barnier-suspend-negotiations-divorce-bill

              "BRUSSELS has threatened to suspend the Brexit talks for at least two months if Britain does not come up with proposals for how it is going to pay its divorce bill"

              1. Roland6 Silver badge

                Re: Diversionary tactics @codejunky

                QED - my point exactly!

                And thanks for confirming my other point: the fact you had to do a web look up confirms you haven't been following the negotiations.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: Diversionary tactics @codejunky

                  @ Roland6

                  Damn, my mistake. I didnt realise I was debating with a pigeon-

                  "it's like playing chess with a pigeon; no matter how good you are at chess the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board and strut around like it's victorious"

                  Or you didnt agree with my comment but didnt understand it. I will let you enlighten us to which once you stop struttin your stuff.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Diversionary tactics

        ... Article 50 wasnt written by us. It is an EU procedure ...

        Article 50 was written by (drum roll) The Right Honourable Lord Kerr of Kinlochard GCMG.

        That's at least something you can't blame on Johnny the Foreigner.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Diversionary tactics

          "That's at least something you can't blame on Johnny the Foreigner."

          With a handle like that he must be a Scot. So to any little Englander he's still Johnny Foreigner.

          And, of course, we see an attempt to drag out another pre-emptive excuse so that it won't be the Leavers' fault when it goes pear-shaped.

          1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Joke

            "so that it won't be the Leavers' fault when it goes pear-shaped."

            Oh yes, I'm quite sure the charges against May and Davis are already being drawn up. Between what the government has whipped Brexiteers into believing they can deliver, what they can deliver (if the EU were generous to the point of stupidity) and what the EU will allow them to deliver IRL there's no way there won't be a hell of a lot of finger pointing.

            In a statement that's already been written a Government spokesperson will say " SPECTRE The Conservative Party does not tolerate failure from any of its members."

            Too bad. I really liked Davis. He was technically knowledgeable and concerned for peoples privacy.

            He may have been the best Home Secretary the UK never had (although I think Diane Abbott could still put the fear of $deity into them if Labor were elected).

      3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: Diversionary tactics

        There is no reason we would give them any ongoing payments

        Oh, except for existing treaty commitments to which the UK has already signalled agreement in principle. Seeing as it's a sine qua non for further negotiations on things like trade then the UK will, sooner or later, agree to it and only hope that it gets announced when attention is elsewhere.

        The EU can easily afford to sit this out.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Diversionary tactics

          @ Charlie Clark

          "Oh, except for existing treaty commitments to which the UK has already signalled agreement in principle."

          I did mention that in my comment- 'only what we already owe them which is the direct result of being in the EU and the cost so far'.

          "Seeing as it's a sine qua non for further negotiations on things like trade then the UK will, sooner or later, agree to it and only hope that it gets announced when attention is elsewhere."

          You will enjoy the comment I just posted where the EU cant really hold up negotiations because of the bill due to article 50 unless the EU is too incompetent to follow their own rules. If thats the case then why would we want them handling our global relations?

          "The EU can easily afford to sit this out."

          Yeah, thats not really true at all is it? The EU is flipping between desperate and hostile depending on who is making the comment (so it seems). Our negotiators have already won, we are leaving. They just now need to make sure they dont lose by changing their mind. If the EU wants to cause us harm then they can damage themselves if they wish but thats just childish and again not what I would want representing us globally.

          1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: Diversionary tactics

            The EU is flipping between desperate and hostile depending on who is making the comment

            Got news for you: here on the continent the negotiations hardly figure as news. The EU negotiators set out their stall in the spring and are waiting for Davis and the rest of the clowns to negotiate in good faith. Exasperation at the UK's inability to negotiate is nothing new and neither are the strategies to deal with it: let things go down to the wire and offer some fig-leaf for the UK to can use to placate the backbenchers. Over the last 20 years or so the UK has repeatedly negotiated itself worse and worse deals because a show of strength was more important than getting consensus.

            You'd better get ready for a compromise that includes single market access, payments to the budget, and acceptance of EU including the authority of the ECJ. There could be some kind of crowd pleaser over free movement such as not providing social security for the first couple of years. It's naive to expect more than that.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: Diversionary tactics

              @ Charlie Clark

              "Got news for you: here on the continent the negotiations hardly figure as news"

              That doesnt surprise me. You should read what is going on, it is really embarrassing for the EU and their antics are becoming harder and harder for staunch remain supporters to justify.

              "The EU negotiators set out their stall in the spring and are waiting for Davis and the rest of the clowns to negotiate in good faith"

              You really dont get the news do you? The EU had to set out its position not us, our position is leave. It set out an amusing position (even getting their negotiating figures amusingly wrong) which we laughed at and then stomped their feet because we were laughing. If this is how they negotiate then why would we want them doing our trade deals?

              "You'd better get ready for a compromise that includes single market access, payments to the budget, and acceptance of EU including the authority of the ECJ."

              Why? We want out of the EU. The single market is a fair part of the problem (food price rises for example) and the budget payments have already been laughed at. The ECJ will be no more important than a court system in a neighbouring jurisdiction. The only way to make this a bad position is to give in to those clowns negotiating for the EU. Particularly the ones with childish thoughts of screwing us over.

              1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                Re: Diversionary tactics

                "We want out of the EU."

                Is this the royal we again? You may want that. You aren't everybody. In the advisory referendum you got a small (in percentage) majority. A great many thought then that Brexit would be a disaster, are still of that opinion and most certainly don't want out. You do not speak for us. And remember that your slim majority in that referendum (assuming it still exists in public opinion today) will have no bearing whatsoever on whether the outcome of Brexit is success or failure, that will be down to reality.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: Diversionary tactics

                  @ Doctor Syntax

                  "Is this the royal we again?"

                  I am sorry, the majority of voters in the referendum. The majority. Majority. Not the minority who wanted to remain.

                  "In the advisory referendum you got a small (in percentage) majority"

                  Ah you get it! Majority!

                  "are still of that opinion and most certainly don't want out"

                  Yes. Well done. And the rest of us disagree.

                  "You do not speak for us"

                  And you and the minority do not speak for us either. Sorry if I seem to be labouring the point and repeating myself but I am hoping to explain the concept of democracy. You seem to be trying to speak for us. The various anti-democratic minority who insist their opinion is worth more than the rest of us. Years of anti-democracy offering a choice then denying us the right, and now we finally get a choice and you lot continue to insist that democracy should be ignored.

                  "will have no bearing whatsoever on whether the outcome of Brexit is success or failure, that will be down to reality."

                  I wish this would sink into the anti-democratic remain parade. You think your right, you lost the vote. Welcome to the many parties who stood last election. And regardless of your view the election isnt run over and over because of a few people being anti-democrats. No matter how strongly you feel about it.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Diversionary tactics

                    And you and the minority do not speak for us either. Sorry if I seem to be labouring the point and repeating myself but I am hoping to explain the concept of democracy.

                    The democracy is not just about following the will of the majority - it is also about respecting and taking into account the views of the minority. In the case of the brexit referendum (in which, not being a Brit or even a European, I was and am only an interested observer), the majority was very slim and the minority quite large. For the referenda of this type, both the losing and especially the winning side must proceed very gingerly and most certaily should not not tell the losing side to shut up and carry on.

                    A very good historical example was the first Quebec independence referendum, which returned a substantial but not overwhelming majority for the unity side. That win was handled very badly by the federal government in Canada, which basically took it as the mandate to ignore the pequistes from then on. That strategy turned out to be nearly disastrous for the inevitable second referendum - which went down to the wire and was only won by the unity side by few tens of thousands of votes. Luckily for everybody, including the quebecois, the subsequent governments handled the aftermath with a bit more finesse - so the possibility of the third referendum is by now pretty remote.

                    The bottom line is that if you subscribe to the Bolshevik interpretation of the democracy, where the opinions of the losers don't matter, you have to be prepared to use Bolshevik methods for dealing with the opposition. If as I sincerely hope you are not, you better listen to their concerns and do something constructive about them - not just repeat "we won, you lost" ad nauseam.

                    Again, just a POV from an outside observer - so think before shooting the messenger.

                  2. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Diversionary tactics

                    >And regardless of your view the election isnt run over and over because of a few people being anti-democrats. No matter how strongly you feel about it.

                    But the election is run over, and over again. At a maximum cycle of five years, unless Parliament votes for an earlier election (as in 2017) or there is a vote of no-confidence in the government. Expect one of those at some point within the next couple of years - either from the rabid Brexit bunch *or* from the Europhiles depending on how the negotiations look to be going.

                    By your own argument, we should be expecting a referendum on the future of our European Union membership sometimes in the next few years.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Diversionary tactics

                      @AC

                      "But the election is run over, and over again. At a maximum cycle of five years"

                      Your right!!!! And the election is held, and the party get in. Hey look we are still implementing the result of the vote!

                      "By your own argument, we should be expecting a referendum on the future of our European Union membership sometimes in the next few years."

                      In what universe? We have been in the EU without a vote for 20 yrs. So in 2 decades feel free to cry. Personally I would prefer us to give this a shot and then see what the EU is and if we would really want to be stuck in it.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Diversionary tactics

              >There could be some kind of crowd pleaser over free movement such as not providing social security for the first couple of years. It's naive to expect more than that.

              Or perhaps they could actually adopt the EU rule to remove migrants that are unable to support themselves after 3 months - that they failed to do since 2004.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Diversionary tactics

                Or perhaps they could actually adopt the EU rule to remove migrants that are unable to support themselves after 3 months - that they failed to do since 2004.

                Implementing that in practice would mean having mandatory national ID and resident registration a-la that is done by most of the EU nations. And this seems to be a bridge too far for the Brits, for rather obscure historical and cultural reasons us on the continent will likely never comprehend.

            3. Nick Kew Silver badge

              Re: Diversionary tactics

              There could be some kind of crowd pleaser over free movement such as not providing social security for the first couple of years. It's naive to expect more than that.

              Under normal EU rules, freedom of movement doesn't entitle anyone to another country's benefits. At least, not until you've been there legally for five years, when you become eligible to apply for permanent residence and then citizenship. Indeed, if you move to another country for more than three months, you have to demonstrate both the means to support yourself and health insurance, so you won't be a burden on your new country.

              The UK has an unholy combination of a monstrously ridiculous benefits system and a determination to manufacture problems with it. Labour did it because they wanted more immigration, the Tories because they wanted to whip up anti-EU hatred.

      4. Yes Me Silver badge
        Headmaster

        Re: Diversionary tactics

        @codejunky "The EU really needs to pull itself together if it wants to sort something out and stop messing about."

        You seem to be confused. The EU doesn't have a problem and has nothing to sort out. We have a problem, because of this stupid idea of leaving the EU. Actually all the EU has to do is sit there, occasionally repeating that Article 50 says only "the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal [my italics], taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union." Don't imagine that the "taking account" phrase means anything; it's diplomat-speak for "not discussing".

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Diversionary tactics

          @ Yes Me

          "You seem to be confused. The EU doesn't have a problem and has nothing to sort out"

          I am not confused at all. A member of the EU is leaving the EU and so the EU procedure for leaving is to be followed. Some people in the EU are friendly and wish mutual cooperation, others not so much. Junker has been getting his excuses in that brexit might bring down the EU, others want to crush the UK in a retribution style childish strop.

          "We have a problem, because of this stupid idea of leaving the EU"

          I believe this is where Dr Syntax asks who is we? Some people do, some people dont, in both the UK and EU.

          "Actually all the EU has to do is sit there"

          Oh I hope they do that. Hard brexit without any of their desperate attempts to trap us in. It would also expose further the childishness we are dealing with and how they are incapable of representing us in negotiations.

      5. Lars Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: Diversionary tactics

        @Codejunky "Article 50 wasnt written by us".

        Some comments on that from our commentards, but I feel the point was lost. So lets start again. It was written by the EU for the EU by a guy who was a member of the EU. Any problems with that.

        Could it be that you have forgotten that it's not the EU that has decided to leave the UK.

        Perhaps you think it would be nice and fine and normal if say Scotland could write the rules for leaving the UK as they please when they please.

        So try again, why should the UK have written that article.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Diversionary tactics

          @ Lars

          "I feel the point was lost"..."It was written by the EU for the EU by a guy who was a member of the "EU"...So try again, why should the UK have written that article."

          I do feel the point was lost. it was a response to Charlie Clark- "the distinct lack of progress in the negotiations which the government will seek to blame the European Commission for". I pointed out yes I do blame the EU if they cannot follow their own framework.

          Dont worry about misunderstanding why I wrote that. It was a few comments before and in the wrong context it does sound a mad statement.

    3. Lars Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Diversionary tactics

      So far Jacob Rees-Mogg is one of the few whose desire and motive to leave the EU I think I can understand. I reckon he believes the class society England still is will prevail for longer outside of the EU, and he is probably right in that belief too.

      Trying to make sense of the "follow the money" is just impossible so it has to be about keeping or getting power. What the majority of the Brexit guys believe in is total fantasy based on lies and feelings I can understand too, only the pill is the wrong one.

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Diversionary tactics

        @ Lars

        "What the majority of the Brexit guys believe in is total fantasy based on lies and feelings I can understand too"

        I think you are probably right about some brexit supporters, but then the remain supporters seem equally lost in fantasy and even falling for some of the serious lies from the campaign. And of course some just fear change, especially if they know nothing different. It really showed the state of desperation when the electorate had to be directly threatened by the chancellor in government if we dared not vote the way they wanted. And being an empty threat there seems little ground left for project fear, but they do keep trying bless em.

        1. Teiwaz Silver badge

          Re: Diversionary tactics

          I think you are probably right about some brexit supporters, but then the remain supporters seem equally lost in fantasy and even falling for some of the serious lies from the campaign.

          I don't think many remain supporters particularly believed the remain campaigns over the top nonsense and completely mismanaged approach.

          The Brexit supporters on the other hand...

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Diversionary tactics

            @ Teiwaz

            "I don't think many remain supporters particularly believed the remain campaigns over the top nonsense and completely mismanaged approach."

            Really? Spend 5 mins reading through EU debates on here. People thinking the banks are leaving, the EU can dictate terms, nobody will want to trade with us, etc. The amount of times I have to correct people on here who claim everything the BoE and gov have been trying to do since 2008 is a sign of the brexocalypse all because the remain campaign made these claims.

            Add to that the good news- 'we are still in the EU' bad news- 'we voted leave' while not knowing the difference between good and bad and it makes question the authority of remainers to insult brexiters as if they are any better.

        2. maxfm

          Well said

          Problem is, the elites are too far up their own exit hole that they'll never see the opportunities that we have given Great Britain through Brexit. They would rather we all fail so they can say I told you so, rather than working together to make us the great nation, outside of europe, that we can become. Do you think our forfathers said it couldn't be done when we discovered America? No - we pulled up our sleeves and made it happen.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Well said

            Do you think our forfathers said it couldn't be done when we discovered America?

            And by "we", you mean the Spaniards and Portugese, right? Or possibly the Vikings or may be even the the First Nations who crossed over from Siberia 15 thousands years ago?

            Or perhaps you just have no slightest clue what you are talking about?

          2. Down not across Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: Well said

            They would rather we all fail so they can say I told you so, rather than working together to make us the great nation, outside of europe, that we can become.

            Make Britain great again?

            Now where have I heard something similar....

          3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Well said

            "They would rather we all fail so they can say I told you so"

            1. I don't count myself as an elite.

            2. I most certainly don't want it to fail for any reason whatsoever, I simply regard it as an inevitability.

            If that statement represents the quality of your thinking it explains a good deal as to why you espouse that cause.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Diversionary tactics

        ."..has to be about keeping or getting power"

        Having been listening the (IMHO rather good) History Of Rome podcast, while there are no specific parallels to be drawn (mobs fighting in the capital and personal armies so far lacking) there is perhaps a parallel: Caesar took his army fatefully into Italy because he didn't want to lose the prestige that an undoubted and mostly right prosecution for unsophisticated bribery would entail once he lost the protection of consulship. For the sake of his personal vanity, Caesar created a civil war and destroyed the remaining democratic veneer of the Republic.

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "Caesar created a civil war and destroyed the remaining democratic veneer of the Republic."

          I'd never really considered David Cameron as "Caesar" material (except as part of a salad of course).

          Who knew he had such Imperial vision?

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Diversionary tactics

      " there will be a revolt by the backbenchers and presumably a leadership challenge by that toad, Jacob Rees-Mogg."

      I still think the best thing that could have happened was for Cameron, instead of doing a runner, to have counted up to a hundred a few times, drawn a deep breath and then announced that because it was an advisory referendum he'd start a feasibility study. To that end appoint all the Rees-Mogg & Bill Cash element as junior ministers in a new ministry, each with the task of carrying out an impact assessment of some aspect of the economy closely affecting their own constituencies. Let them actually take some responsibility and do some work. And for those constituencies with a strong Leave vote and major EU bases of foreign corporations but no government MP, their MP could go on the corresponding Select Committee, again with the job of evaluating the impact on their constituencies.

      Once that task was complete run a further, binding referendum requiring a supermajority which, of course should be the right way for any substantial constitutional change - and should have been a requirement for all those EC/EU treaty changes in the past.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Diversionary tactics

        I still think the best thing that could have happened was for Cameron, instead of doing a runner, to have counted up to a hundred a few times, drawn a deep breath and then announced that because it was an advisory referendum he'd start a feasibility study.

        Have an extra upvote for that!

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Diversionary tactics

      Have an upvote for pointing out what a nasty piece of work Mogg is. The guy's a cross between Winker Watson and Golem. He puts on the "he's a jolly decent fellow" front when he's in front of the cameras but he's a weaselly, self-serving, revolting excuse for a human being.

      Allegedly.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Diversionary tactics

        he's a weaselly, self-serving, revolting excuse for a human being.

        I don't wish to disparage the man but do believe he is a Tory MP

  9. Dan 55 Silver badge

    I don't think anything's going to happen until EU citizens' rights are sorted out

    And with the news about the Home Office sending out a batch of 100 letters to EU citizens threatening deportation, which is the latest in an ongoing problem since last year, the EU will just say that they're not talking about anything else until EU citizens in the UK are guaranteed their rights and have ECJ oversight. The Home Office has just shown why it can't be trusted without ECJ oversight.

    1. Nick Kew Silver badge

      Re: I don't think anything's going to happen until EU citizens' rights are sorted out

      To be fair to the British courts, I think they'd have thrown out the Home Office case in this instance, too.

      But ICBW.

  10. Potemkine! Silver badge

    We want our money back

    Pay the exit bill then we'll discuss the other points, even the delusional and childish proposals like this one.

  11. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    There 'May' come a time

    when HMG wake up and realise that it (BREXIT) is all too complicated and abandon the whole idea.

    Naturally the Mail, Express, Newscorp etc will all explode in an instant but that might not be such a bad thing in the long run.

    If the EU start demanding £100/person Schengen Area visas for that hen night in [wherever] and that the time to get a visa is 3-6 months a few more people might get the idea that leaving is just too much of a PITA.

    Not saying it will happen but the EU seem hell bent on putting as many obsticles in the way just to make sure that no other country even thinks about leaving in the future.

    1. Nick Kew Silver badge

      Re: There 'May' come a time

      Not saying it will happen but the EU seem hell bent on putting as many obsticles[sic] in the way just to make sure that no other country even thinks about leaving in the future.

      I think the EU right now are sitting back and watching the UK government self-destruct in a shower of incoherent nonsense. No intervention from the EU required to deter anyone else from trying to follow!

    2. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: There 'May' come a time

      @ Steve Davies 3

      "when HMG wake up and realise that it (BREXIT) is all too complicated and abandon the whole idea."

      That really would be a sorry state for the country to be in. That it would wilfully desire its government to be incompetent and irrelevant just to sell out the country. And of course that desired incompetence will be for the public sector required to serve under the gov. One would hope that voters would want to vote for capable governments. But anyone holding the view you suggest surely cannot consider complaining about anything government or public sector related as they are only as capable as you desire.

      "a few more people might get the idea that leaving is just too much of a PITA"

      I suppose the short term pain for long term gain is a matter of willpower and I guess you would be targeting shallow people with little willpower to convert. I can only hope the people in this country are better educated and not so hopeless, for the benefit of the country.

      "the EU seem hell bent on putting as many obsticles in the way just to make sure that no other country even thinks about leaving in the future."

      I do think what they did to Greece was pretty sickening. And they so nearly had Italy too. The only real card the EU has left to play is to hope we take a bad deal, such as not leaving. Some of them do seem to realise that our objective is leaving. They cannot put obstacles in the way of that and while an amicable split would be the best outcome for both sides, if they dont want to it is them causing themselves damage out of spite.

      I do think they fear others leaving too. The desperation in their comments and begging us to change our minds does suggest some of them realise the situation for what it is.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: There 'May' come a time

        I suppose the short term pain for long term gain is a matter of willpower

        Tell that to people who lose their jobs as a result of this…

        1. codejunky Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: There 'May' come a time

          @ Charlie Clark

          "Tell that to people who lose their jobs as a result of this…"

          Aww not this failed argument again. The opportunity cost of the EU is difficult to quantify in how destructive they have been. And I am sure there will be more than a few politicians crying at their loss of gravy.

          Its any wonder that the rest of the world finds employment while they are not in the EU. Although that excludes the Eurozone which has its own employment issues

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: There 'May' come a time

            "Its any wonder that the rest of the world finds employment while they are not in the EU."

            The rest of the world is not seeing a large proportion of its home market converted to an export market.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: There 'May' come a time

            >And I am sure there will be more than a few politicians crying at their loss of gravy.

            You did lose all credibility when you claimed that Article 50 wasn't written by us, but even so....

            The politicians are relishing this opportunity. There are many, many functions which are currently carried out on our behalf by the EU. Of course, this currently involves plenty of British employees of the EU. These functions will now need to be done by us: cue plenty of Whitehall jobs for the old boys' network.

            Of course, there are those who do the jobs in Brussels who would be ideally qualified to take on those functions here. Some of them will be quite happy to take a job here at a price they can name. Others will not be desperate to give up their comfortable lives in what is frankly quite a pleasant place to live, and given that plenty of them will be married to foreigners there's a good chance that they will say no thanks.

            Of course, whatever happens, the UK tax payer will foot the bill. You can guarantee that the politicians and their chums will benefit greatly from this.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: There 'May' come a time

              @AC

              "You did lose all credibility when you claimed that Article 50 wasn't written by us, but even so...."

              So I lost creditability (to you) because of a statement I have backed up but you dont like? Didums.

              "The politicians are relishing this opportunity."

              Hell yeah. And being tories it will be interesting (concerning) to see which direction they take this. And you are right they will likely do the whole jobs for the boys thing. I am not a fan of the gov nor do I particularly trust them.

              "Of course, whatever happens, the UK tax payer will foot the bill."

              Yup, it is the way. But so far you have not written anything different than us being in the EU nor any change from being in or out.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: There 'May' come a time

            How destructive EU membership may have been is irrelevant. The situation in the rest of the world is irrelevant. The situation in the Eurozone is irrelevant. People who are currently employed, even with the apparent opportunity cost of EU membership, losing their jobs as a result of the UK leaving the European Union, an action whose primary motivation is according to surveys from both sides to reduce immigration, isn't going to feel good.

            Well, for some it isn't going to feel good. Recent surveys indicate those of >65 years old are fine with jobs, even of close relatives, being lost. That triple-lock looks an awfully tempting target if tax receipts drop post-Brexit as many economists forecast. Always easy to be indifferent to cost when it's others paying the bills.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: There 'May' come a time

              @AC

              How destructive EU membership may have been is irrelevant.

              The situation in the Eurozone is irrelevant

              In that case losing their jobs as a result of the UK leaving the European Union is irrelevant. Your welcome.

              "Recent surveys indicate those of >65 years old are fine with jobs, even of close relatives, being lost."

              Without suggesting this will or will not happen was the question. And yes. Just as according to you the damage and ruin of remaining is irrelevant.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                your rong

                and you're grammar sucks, two

      2. graeme leggett

        Re: There 'May' come a time

        The great foolishness of the government is that of trying to fit in a multi-year project into a two-year deadline.

        The honest (albeit politically unacceptable route) would have been for the government of the day to say. "OK. We get that a majority want out of European integration. No one has ever tried anything of this magnitude before. We can either start the clock running now, or we can take a year to get people, policies for post-EU UK into place and then start the clock."

        But with a fear of UKIPpers yelping at them from the sidelines they went off half-cocked. (talking of half-cocked, anyone seen the Foreign Secretary recently?)

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: There 'May' come a time

          Well they did stall for a year. And had sweet FA to show for it.

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "But with a fear of UKIPpers yelping at them from the sidelines they went off half-cocked."

          People have talked about a "Project Fear."

          Well all I can see was the fear UKIP induced in some in the Conservative leadership to the point they were sh**ting themselves they would lose MP's and/or power.

          This whole process has FA to do with UK voters and everything to do with keeping the Conservative Party united. 1 nation. 1 people. 1 Leader. 1 vision (as Freddy Mercury might have sang).

          1. Chronos Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: "But with a fear of UKIPpers yelping at them from the sidelines they went off half-cocked."

            Well all I can see was the fear UKIP induced in some in the Conservative leadership to the point they were sh**ting themselves they would lose MP's and/or power.

            Am I the only one who thinks UKip should be the British Air BnB? UKip on the sofa, UKip in the hall and I'll kip in me bed. Breakfast is whatever isn't growing green hair in the 'fridge.

            This whole process has FA to do with UK voters and everything to do with keeping the Conservative Party united. 1 nation. 1 people. 1 Leader. 1 vision (as Freddy Mercury might have sang).

            Magic (kinda)...

            If we don't destroy ourselves with our tribalism, in a century or so this will be looked back upon with much hilarity as the concept of "Nation" is explored in history lessons. It seems to me that the vast majority of the rhetoric from both camps is an awful lot of prick waving and not much substance. The reality, then, would appear to be that they're two sides to the same coin: A lot of people using power for personal gain arguing over how to divide up the spoils.

            So, business as usual, then.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "But with a fear of UKIPpers yelping at them from the sidelines they went off half-cocked."

            The shadenfraude part of me finds it amusing that Brexit is almost certain to kill the Tory party at the next election, possibly forever.

            They will piss off more than half the country no matter what they do - Brexit or no Brexit.

            On top of that the massive economic damage that has already occurred is and will continue to cause a significant drop in living standards.

            (Compare EU growth to UK growth over the last year)

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: "But with a fear of UKIPpers yelping at them from the sidelines they went off half-cocked."

              @AC

              "(Compare EU growth to UK growth over the last year)"

              Kinda hard for them not to grow much faster as they fell so much further in the recession. Just by getting down that unemployment number a bit will do it considering the destruction caused by the Euro.

      3. nsld

        Re: There 'May' come a time

        @codejunky

        The EU are not putting obstacles in the way, remember the battle of the summer over parallel negotiations?

        That lasted 4 minutes before Davis capitulated.

        The EU27 have a job to do, they don't need to put any obstacles in the way and have been absolutely transparent in the position papers without press embargoes or press briefings.

        The consensus in the EU27 is one of ambivelance, the EU is not going to collapse as a result of Britain leaving, in fact many of the countries in the EU27 actually want a hard Brexit as they stand to gain considerably from the transfer of assetts, businesses and economic activity. Taking farming, nothing we grow in the UK can't be grown in Northern Europe and they have lots of space to take over the production of arable and veg to replace what comes from the UK. Incidently, about 80% of all pea and pea protien (ready meals) consumer in the UK is grown in Northern Europe, what do you think thats going to do to your food costs.

        A no deal departure would mean that Euro clearing goes to the EU27 from London, following the regulatory agencies like Medicine, which incidently brings huge secondary spend with hotel rooms, transport, visitor leisure etc. little wonder the EU cities are lining up to bid for those agencies.

        The government has already floated the idea of EFTA court as the arbitrator, thats to soften headbangers like you up to the reality that we will join EEA/EFTA and it will be business as usual.

        What that means in reality is a higher membership bill, significantly reduced grants, more paperwork and no say on the shape of the union. The positives are that the likes of Farage, Hannan and the rest of the MEP troughers are out of a job and business can continue as usual.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: There 'May' come a time

          @ nsld

          "The EU are not putting obstacles in the way, remember the battle of the summer over parallel negotiations?"

          The one where the EU tried to put obstacles in the way? Where they ignored their own framework to insist an amusing but basically futile bill be paid before negotiating anything.

          "the EU is not going to collapse as a result of Britain leaving"

          I am glad you said that. Now please go tell Junker and the rest of them. That was their claim.

          "Taking farming"

          Cool. Food prices are going up because we cannot change our trade tariffs yet. Funny enough one of those legitimate moments to say we are still in the EU.

          "A no deal departure would mean that Euro clearing goes to the EU27 from London"

          Again a wonderful remain lie. The EU have been gagging to get euro clearing into the eurozone before we decided to leave. If they want to they can. Oddly enough the reason they didnt and havnt is because they want the Euro to be an international reserve currency, which means being available for clearing outside the EU. It would actually require a very childish mindset to try to move such a currency out of a global financial centre. Wouldnt it... (the answer is yes)

          "thats to soften headbangers like you up to the reality that we will join EEA/EFTA and it will be business as usual."

          Yes. How dare anyone be for democracy and freedom. I assume I should just shut up and follow because you claim all will be fine. Baa. Nope cant do it.

          1. Yes Me Silver badge

            Re: There 'May' come a time

            Yes, some Euro clearing may remain in London, but we can already see that the main focus will switch to Frankfurt. So the one real source of prosperity that came out of the Thatcher years will be thrown away.

            "How dare anyone be for democracy and freedom." You aren't for either of those. The result of the Thatcher years, the Blair years, and the Cameron/May years is a reduction of freedom (especially freedom of information) and great damage to democracy, due largely to the rather sinister influence on the media of the super-rich, who have the most to gain from populist politics, secrecy, and a tax-cutting, deregulating right-wing government. The Brexit referendum was a prime example: populist lies and fantasies, fed to the public by biased media, leading to 37% of registered voters supporting a proposal that would reduce their prosperity even more, to the benefit of the super-rich. I'm no fan of Corbyn, but it is high time for the country to get rid of the low-tax low-regulation low-spending doctrines of the last 30 years. Obviously we should stay in the EU too, but it's been used as a smoke screen for what's really going on - increasing inequality brought about as the long-term result of Thatcherism.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: There 'May' come a time

              @ Yes Me

              "Yes, some Euro clearing may remain in London, but we can already see that the main focus will switch to Frankfurt. So the one real source of prosperity that came out of the Thatcher years will be thrown away."

              Where is this dream that the EU loves us? They have been trying to move the city away from london for so long they know nothing else. So in or out the EU will try the same trick. This isnt thrown away. This wet dream being in makes them nicer is balls.

              "You aren't for either of those"

              Really? I wanted a democratic vote on our membership of the EU and the remain crowd couldnt even manage that. You complain our freedoms have been draining away. You are aware Blair sold the country to the EU and reduced freedom. The super-national gov to sit on our gov which desires federalisation and you complain at the loss of freedoms but want to remain.

              "The Brexit referendum was a prime example: populist lies and fantasies"

              I agree. The remain campaign even had to resort to direct blatant threats against the citizens of this country. The official brexit campaign lied too but there seems to be some deluded dream world where some people think remain didnt rig the vote and seriously lie and subversion of fact.

              "I'm no fan of Corbyn"

              Is that because he also rejects membership to the EU? The lib dems ran on a platform for the EU last election but that really didnt work.

          2. nsld

            Re: There 'May' come a time

            @codejunky

            Article 50 isnt a long document, it is about the withdrawl of a member from the EU which is why the EU published its position document openly with the withdrawl element to be dealt with first.

            Thats not an obstacle, thats the approach layed down in the article to be followed. Davis was, as usual, just full of bluster and bravado.

            Euro clearing takes place in many places, not just the UK, we happen to handle about 70% of it, Paris does about 11% and the rest is spread around. It represents a clear opportunity to move a significant amount away from London and, like the efforts to get the EU agencies business the EU countries are not going to let that prize go, nor are the Americans.

            On the food and farming front its not just about the price to the consumer but also about tariffs and quota's under WTO rules. The 40% tariff on lamb for example is not going to be a good day out for the UK sheep farming industry, and thats just one example.

            Like the UKIP's supporting the Caribbean Sugar Cane producers and US multi national cane processors UK sugar beet farmers are going to find out that life gets very hard without the protection of the tradeing block even with a weak currency to aid exports.

            I am all for freedom and democracy, this was a binary vote so leaving the EU and joining EEA/EFTA meets that binary choice. I would also argue that your extension of that binary choice to be much more is a real example of someone trying to usurp democracy.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: There 'May' come a time

              @ nsld

              "withdrawl element to be dealt with first."..."Thats not an obstacle"

              Your right. Insisting we pay a bill before we negotiate anything else is.

              "Euro clearing takes place in many places, not just the UK, we happen to handle about 70% of it,"

              World wide actually. Because keeping it in the EU would remove it from being an international reserve currency. Why would they do 70% here when paris is just there doing 11%? Maybe a reason? Even though the EU have been trying to insist it even before the referendum!

              "nor are the Americans"

              Wrong time zone.

              "The 40% tariff on lamb for example"

              Is this the EU once we have gone? Where we can import even cheaper from other parts of the world once out of the EU? Or what we will apply which would make no sense.

              "I am all for freedom and democracy, this was a binary vote so leaving the EU and joining EEA/EFTA meets that binary choice"

              You do understand that could not be an option. We cant join those without their permission and Cameron would not consider losing the vote (part of rigging it).

              "I would also argue that your extension of that binary choice to be much more is a real example of someone trying to usurp democracy."

              I would suggest selling the country and constantly withdrawing the promised votes is usurping democracy.

              1. nsld

                Re: There 'May' come a time

                @codejunky

                Meeting your obligations to withdraw is just that, meeting the obligation which includes a fiscal one.

                The trade agreement can only happen after the withdrawl is agreed for the simple reason that the trade deal cannot be put in place until we actually leave and have third country status. Thats why the stages are Withdrawl, define trading arrangement, sign deal on the day of leaving (if one is done of course)

                As to the import at lower or zero tariffs argument (the Minford fantasy) , fine if you are purely a consumer economy but even the economic sage himself says that approach will completely destroy manufacturing in the UK. It will also hammer our exporters, end result will not be pretty.

                The financial sector will be really hit hard if by March 2019 we don't have adequacy to handle the data of EU citizens or a deal on passporting, hence all the major financial institutions making contingency arrangements in the EU27 for that eventuality, just look at the doubling in commercial rents in Dublin since the vote, they are loving it.

                As for Euro clearing, some of it already takes place in the US, they wont say no to more, plus your comment about reserve currency status is rubbish. The dollar is a reserve currency and almost all of its clearing is in New York so moving Euro Clearing more heavily into Europe won't change the reserve status of a currency.

                Automative will be interesting, we don't have the supply chain in the UK to replace the multiple component moves that make up modern car manufacturing. End result if we do become a third country with no deal is a significant impact on the major manufacturers, all of which are fully or partially European owned. Of course the government has given a comfort letter to the Franco-Japanese owned Nissan and will probably have to do the same to BMW Mini, Tata Land Rover, Honda, Peugot (now owners of Vauxhall) etc. You or I won't get a comfort letter telling us the UK taxpayer will make up the difference, we will be the ones paying it. But even with those kind of subsidies/guarantees etc outside of the luxury producers you will see a big contraction, its already happened with investment plummeting since 2015 when the referendum was announced.

                The real irony I have saved until last, now we are leaving we won't have a seat at the table and as a third country we will have to adhere to ECJ decisions and jump through all those hoops just to trade with the largest market on our doorstep. Its worth remembering the impact that the ECJ ruling in Schrems v. Facebook referred by Ireland had, even the land of the Trump has to bend to the ECJ if it wants to trade with one of the other big three.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: There 'May' come a time

                  @ nsld

                  "Meeting your obligations to withdraw is just that, meeting the obligation which includes a fiscal one."

                  Is that the 60bn original one we laughed at or the 100bn one that followed that we really laughed at? One being what they wanted (unjustly) and one they tried it on with after we blew holes in their original failure.

                  "The trade agreement can only happen after the withdrawl is agreed"

                  Yup I have no problem with this. Some companies here have a problem with it and some countries in the EU and that is where it is surely up to the EU (those countries) to propose something if they want.

                  "As to the import at lower or zero tariffs argument"

                  If you dont want to lower tariffs from the EU which basically keep the poor people down then I would be concerned. Lower or gone would be fine for the simple reason that the EU tariffs are to protect the cartel. It is protectionism. Full freakin stop.

                  "The financial sector will be really hit hard if by March 2019 we don't have adequacy to handle the data of EU citizens or a deal on passporting"

                  Actually no they have pretty much resolved this even if it isnt to the pleasure of the EU. They make a subsidiary instead of moving and bam, nothing changed except there is a new brass plate.

                  "As for Euro clearing, some of it already takes place in the US, they wont say no to more"

                  Timezone

                  "plus your comment about reserve currency status is rubbish"

                  They dont want the euro to be an international reserve currency? Are you sure?

                  "as a third country we will have to adhere to ECJ decisions and jump through all those hoops just to trade with the largest market on our doorstep"

                  Really? Not this dumb rubbish again. Our exports will have to be acceptable for the EU to trade with them. We will not have to adhere to ECJ any further than that. Just as we dont bend over to the US supreme court, Chinese courts nor any other country. If you think we need to hand over our country to trade with another then you have been in the EU too long.

                  1. nsld

                    Re: There 'May' come a time

                    @codejunky

                    You really don't understand how any of this works.

                    Take the ECJ, if they tell the EU27 that something is not compliant or doesn't meet standards/GDPR et al (the list is endless) then thats game over for whatever that sector is involved in.

                    Hence why the moves are more than brass plate on the door. They are also moving data, services and in some cases entire teams into the EU27 just to be ready for GDPR requirements alone.

                    We haven't touched on Airlines either, Easyjet blinked first, BA will follow but has the advantage that it can leverage services etc within IAG its parent, Ryanair has already taken steps, all of which will add economic value in other countries and remove it from the UK.

                    You can keep your dream of empire alight but in the cold light of day we are a small island in a world which has moved on greatly since we conquered much of it and gave them our civil service as a lasting legacy

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: There 'May' come a time

                      @ nsld

                      "Take the ECJ, if they tell the EU27 that something is not compliant or doesn't meet standards/GDPR et al (the list is endless) then thats game over for whatever that sector is involved in."

                      Exactly the same for EVERY COUNTRY WE TRADE WITH. We sell more to the US than the EU, should we surrender the country to trump instead of the EU? Or should we stand on our own 2 feet?

                      "You can keep your dream of empire alight but in the cold light of day we are a small island in a world which has moved on greatly since we conquered much of it and gave them our civil service as a lasting legacy"

                      Why are some remain supporters so stuck in the past? I have no dream of an empire, not Brittish nor EU. Nor do I care for the cold war trading blocks like USSR or EU. Its almost as amusing as those insisting brexiters want a 1970's throw back when the EU was built on the old world model. Even the fear of leaving other countries in the world that the EU protects us from is such old world thinking.

                      1. Roland6 Silver badge

                        Re: There 'May' come a time

                        @Code Junky - "Exactly the same for EVERY COUNTRY WE TRADE WITH. We sell more to the US than the EU"

                        ONS/UK government figures for 2015:

                        UK - EU (exports / imports): £230,031m / £290,621m

                        UK - US (exports / imports): £96,425m / £59,258m

                        [http://visual.ons.gov.uk/uk-trade-partners/ ]

                        Additionally, about 17% of EU exports go to the US and 16% to the UK.

                        [https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/ ]

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: There 'May' come a time

                          @ Roland6

                          Very cool. Good catch. It isnt the US it is the world. It is good that they point out the EU's declining share of the economy while others are increasing.

                          Cheers for the fact check

          3. Lars Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: There 'May' come a time

            "The EU have been gagging to get euro clearing into the eurozone before we decided to leave".

            No that's total rubbish, Try to check the reality before you write.

            One or several EU countries (i cannot remember) argued against London as the UK is not in the Eurozone. The EU did not agree as the UK is in the EU.

            With the UK outside the EU London will be on its own and not protected by the EU, nor a member of the EU or the Eurozone.

            Hardly surprising that London voted remain and for a number of other reasons too I would claim. What will happen next is anybody's guess but London's position will no doubt be weaker.

            It seems to me that many Brits think the EU is a country like say India, could it be that those same people have also forgotten what the United Kingdom stands for and mentally think and behave in the same way.

            So much shit.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: There 'May' come a time

              @ Lars

              "One or several EU countries (i cannot remember) argued against London as the UK is not in the Eurozone"

              Aka it didnt happen.

              "The EU did not agree as the UK is in the EU"

              Aka it did.

              "With the UK outside the EU London will be on its own and not protected by the EU, nor a member of the EU or the Eurozone."

              Just like the US! Funny that.

              "What will happen next is anybody's guess but London's position will no doubt be weaker"

              Yes. The place that handles 70% of euro clearing and so far has yet to please the EU with the mass exodus (in fact making it amusing as they made subsidiaries instead) will be weaker. Eh what?

              "Brits think the EU is a country like say India"

              Really? I have heard EUSSR and United States of Europe but I dont think I have ever heard anyone compare the EU to India.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: There 'May' come a time

        >That really would be a sorry state for the country to be in. That it would wilfully desire its government to be incompetent and irrelevant just to sell out the country.

        You are actually in the UK? You do realise that the UK government is probably the most incompetent, self-serving bunch of useless tossers ever to find themselves in such a position. We would struggle to get a worse bunch of representatives if we went out and took 650 random drug addicts and made them go through withdrawal while running the country.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "took 650 random drug addicts and made them go through withdrawal while running the country."

          Does it make me a bad person if I think that sounds like quite a good idea?

          At least with smackheads you've got a pretty good idea of exactly what's driving them.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There 'May' come a time

      The EU doesn't need to put obstacles in the way, our own "negotiators", with their borderline lack of understanding of reality, are doing that just fine.

      As for the Mail, Express and Newscorp self-destructively exploding, that could be one actual benefit of the entire sorry process ....

  12. PapaD

    I still want to know

    What happens if the plans to allow EU citizens about to be dragged out of the EU by a member state to retain citizenship (for whatever fee) come to fruition, and a lot of people choose to do so.

    I certainly intend to.

  13. Christoph Silver badge

    To extend the cake analogy ...

    The UK are trying to insist on various minor details while ignoring the actual main points that MUST be sorted before leaving the EU (because they really don't want to admit that they will have to surrender on pretty well all of them).

    So it's "Hand it round first, and cut it afterwards".

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It is all down to money

    If the UK bent over (more than they are already doing I might add) and said ok, £140billion(or whatever it is this week) to their demands/extorsion for an exit fee, then the EU might just take the money and run.

    If the UK offers close to £0B then expect the leaving to be full of pitfalls, traps and the rest.

    Then there will be all those criminals, exiles and OAP's that come back because they won't get any benefits in future unless they are are inside fortress Britannia (we will fight them on the beaches and all that)

    that £230M a week suddenly looks tempting.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: It is all down to money

      >those criminals, exiles and OAP's that come back

      You don't have to let them back.

      There where lots of people in Africa in the 70s and Hong Kong in the 80s who thought they were British subjects until it looked like they might want to move to the UK.

  15. John70

    Quickies

    UK.gov seem to want quick deals on everything Brexit...

    Best option for the Government would be to say "Fuck it, we're not leaving. People will moan but who cares."

    After all, they will be kicked out in next election.

    1. Darren Stephens

      Re: Quickies

      Yeah, but there's a big difference between what they want, and what the EU27 are willing to give them.

      They hold ALL the cards. After all, they didn't throw us out. They didn't even want us to leave.

      We chose to hurl our toys so far out of the pram that they have now entered a low earth orbit, and may be about to reenter and burn up horribly in the very near future, causing us horrible burns.

      As dumb fucking flounces go, it was a doozy.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Don't worry, it will all work out in the end.

    By 2025 the main parties will be canvassing support for rejoining the EU to put an end to the Brexit fiasco. No doubt it will be under worse terms that we enjoy today.

    Is hating politicians now a hate crime BTW? ;)

    1. Down not across Silver badge

      Re: Don't worry, it will all work out in the end.

      By 2025 the main parties will be canvassing support for rejoining the EU to put an end to the Brexit fiasco. No doubt it will be under worse terms that we enjoy today.

      Wouldn't surprise me. Incredibly daft though, since UK currently enjoys concessions beyond that of any other member and certainly would not get those again.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Don't worry, it will all work out in the end.

        "Incredibly daft though"

        Incredibly daft to be in the position that that will be the best outcome. I doubt that much canvassing would be needed, however.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Don't worry, it will all work out in the end.

      On my more generous days, I think Brexit was actually a plot by Farage to make the UK fully join the EU, with the Euro, Schengen and no rebate. Or at least, there is a significant chance that will be the final outcome.

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge

        Re: Don't worry, it will all work out in the end.

        Farage can't think that far ahead.

        I think he wanted fame. Don't think it was power as he ignored what he had.

        Farage was the UK fisheries rep to the EU - and couldn't even be arsed to turn up. If you think the UK fishermen got a poor deal, it was primarily because of Farage.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Captian Subtext here:

    “ambitious” = "utterly, utterly batshit"

    Over and out.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I am surprised at how remoaner-centric the Reg comments are; it's like the Guardian on here now.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "I am surprised at how remoaner-centric the Reg comments are; it's like the Guardian on here now."

      It's because of the complete lack of any concrete evidence that Brexit will be good for anyone apart from the politicians and the lawyers.

      Betting the farm is never a good idea.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "I am surprised at how remoaner-centric the Reg comments are". Just more knowledge and education perhaps compared to what you usually read.

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      I am surprised at how remoaner-centric the Reg comments are; it's like the Guardian on here now.

      Don't worry, you can get your fill of mindless(*) Brexiteer comments on the BBC, Telegraph and other websites.

      (*) And by mindless, I include "at least we're leaving" WTF?.

  19. Disk0
    Mushroom

    Meanwhile

    almost everybody who is not British has moved on from worrying about Brexit to figuring out how to survive World War 3.

    1. JulieM Silver badge

      Re: Meanwhile

      Aye. Some of us were around in the 1980s .....

      Maybe I was just young and ignorant, but I never had the feeling that Ronald Reagan or George Bush I would actually have launched a first strike. I cannot say that about Donald Trump.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Meanwhile

        But with 20,000 warheads on each side we were a lot closer to a software bug, radar fault, mid-air collision or confused junior officer launching one.

        1. JulieM Silver badge

          Re: Meanwhile

          But there is every incentive to prefer a false negative over a false positive. If the Enemy have launched their missiles anyway, we're no less dead if ours go off. But if someone can show that their decision averted a false nuclear strike in retaliation to a phantom event, they literally saved the world. Which sounds like the sort of thing you could dine out on for awhile .....

  20. J J Carter Silver badge
    Linux

    Hurrah for the kewl kids

    Linux Mint users all voted to Remain

  21. JulieM Silver badge

    It is not that hard

    1. We buy more from the other EU countries than we sell to them.

    2. They aren't allowed to double the prices they charge us, because we are members of the EU.

    3. Er, wait a minute .....

    The right-wing press have successfully manipulated their readership to blame the evils of the world on themselves rather than the real culprits (the super-rich). They blame immigrant workers for taking low-paid jobs as opposed to capitalists not paying their workers enough in the first place, and they blame foreigners for taking up hospital beds rather than chronic underinvestment in the NHS by successive governments.

    I get the feeling we are sitting on a branch, sawing through it on the side nearer the tree.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: It is not that hard

      But with a free trade deal with the rest of the world means the UK will get cheap America meat and wheat without any tarrif barriers or pesky Eu rules on hormones and GMO. Cheap American fracked oil instead of that expensive North sea stuff and be able to import everything else tax free from China

      Prices in the shops should tumble - only slightly slower than the value of the currency and wages

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: It is not that hard

        And with a trade deal with India (along with free movement of workers), I suspect there won't much need for expensive UK IT experts.

        Suspect this might be a contributory factor explaining "how remoaner-centric the Reg comments are" and somehow why Code Junky and others won't be celebrating this aspect of Brexit...

      2. PapaD

        Re: It is not that hard

        Yeesh, the last thing we want is to find ourselves inundated with US foodstuffs that cannot legally be sold in the rest of Europe because they contain an insane amount of drugs/steroids/pus/whatever and don't meet any of the standards that are put in place to ensure a certain quality/standard for our food.

  22. Jess

    The EU position is quite simple

    The only trade deals they are likely to offer us are continuing EEA membership and customs union membership, under similar terms to now.

    If we asked for those, they would bend over backwards to make them happen. (But they wouldn't drop freedom of movement for the EEA).

    Since we are not asking for that, they are simply enabling us to procrastinate until we are so close to the April 2019 cut off point with no idea of the end result, that the businesses that rely of single market membership will have no choice but to commit to move to remain in the EEA. This could take 10% - 20% of our industry overseas (one estimate was 30%).

    Once they have started to move, we are stuffed. Even if we get an extension, or a soft brexit.

  23. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    Supposed current bill for Brexit, £54bn from the EU, £36Bn from the UK.

    Sounds like a negotiation to me.

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