back to article President Trump to his council of industry CEO buddies: You're fired!

Facing mass defections from CEOs repulsed by President Donald Trump's weak handling of fascists marching in America's streets, the White House has disbanded its manufacturing council. In the days after the Charlottesville white-supremacist rallies and the President's initial tepid condemnation of those marches, the leaders of …

  1. Keven E

    Under pressure

    Trumps tweet... "Rather than putting pressure on the business people..."

    What an arrogant twit. He really thinks being POTUS is like (private) ownership of a business.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Under pressure

      Trump is clearly in the early stages of dementia.

      It may have worked for the Reagan Whitehouse, but Nancy was quite intelligent, and not born behind the Iron Curtain ... Be afraid, people. Be very afraid.

      1. Mark 85 Silver badge

        Re: Under pressure

        I'm not so sure about the dementia but it appears we're seeing things that were there during the campaign but glossed over by all the Clinton crap. I'm just not sure what he believes or what his intentions actually are.

        As for the Nazis... I retract my previous position about dialog. Time to shut them down.

      2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        "Trump is clearly in the early stages of dementia."

        I can understand the appeal of this line of reasoning, I really can. It promises an end to his behavior and a return to sanity. It's a simple solution.

        My old History teacher taught that you should always be very wary of people who offer simple solutions to difficult problems.

        And blaming Trumps behavior on dementia is a simple solution. Let me suggest other reasons for his response to this situation.

        a)They are part of his voter base, although his views may be a bit liberal for their tastes. Like this guy , Trump does not believe in laws, he believes in borders.

        b) He lacks any empathy with others. The feelings normal people would feel at hearing of the events and their perpetrators simply don't exist in him. IOW his reaction to an advisor saying "Mr President you have to make a statement condemning this behavior by the alt-right" is "Why?"

        Stalin said "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic," but that's not quite detached enough.

        For the gated-community-raised-pre-school-bully-turned-construction-speculator one death is also a statistic. "I never met the the girl (although she's cute). I didn't know the girl and I'm never going to know her. Everything else is fake news," as the D might put it.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          IT Angle

          Re: "Trump is clearly in the early stages of dementia."

          Northing to do with the topic at hand but when a comment is long and the 'Expand Comment' option is available, clicking on links that are (presumably) in the top of the gradient section that will be expand downwards - but are still entirely visible on screen, e.g. "like this guy" - doesn't work.

          A fine case of clever UI and coding removing useful functionality.

          Anyway, back to the debate...

        2. jake Silver badge

          Re: "Trump is clearly in the early stages of dementia."

          It's not a simple solution. In fact, it's not a solution at all. Nor does it promise an end to anything. Nor was my comment based on this single instance of his behavior.

          What it is is a theory that fits the evidence as observed over the last several years.

      3. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

        Re: "Trump is clearly in the early stages of dementia"

        Actually, I think he's just a psychopath (or at least has significant psychopathic tendencies). Occam's razor, and all that.

        In all seriousness, Jon Ronson's rather excellent book "The Psychopath Test" is a very interesting read, particularly when you think about the content in the context of people that you know (of).

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "Jon Ronson's rather excellent book "The Psychopath Test" is a very interesting read, "

          Although it's about a good bit more than that.

          Running the PCL-R on people can be quite interesting, Are they 0,1,2 or 3 on each question?

          Although obviously Trump is a 0 on #20 (criminal versatility) because he's not been charged with anything (unlike the inmates of the maximum security slammer Dr Hare worked in).

          Or at least not found guilty of anything, which I'm sure he would argue is exactly the same thing.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A shame, he started off so well.

    It'll all end fine, I'm sure. Just teething problems.

  3. TheElder

    Dell is loyal?

    Looks like Dell may have just hit the Dellete key for many customers.

    1. Whiznot

      Re: Dell is loyal?

      Dell still has customers? Who knew?

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Dell is loyal?

        Dude! I'm so not getting a Dell.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Facepalm

          Re: Dell is loyal?

          From Dell's 'Corporate Social Responsibility' page - http://www.dell.com/learn/uk/en/ukcorp1/cr:

          Every day, Dell is pairing technology with innovation to make a positive social and environmental impact – building a Legacy of Good. We are committed to putting our technology and expertise to work, where it can do the most good for people and the planet, making possible today what was impossible yesterday.

          Every team member at Dell shares this commitment because being a good company is the right thing to do, but it is also right for our business. We’re creating real value for our customers, employees, and partners while driving social and environmental good in the community.

          Surely there's nothing in here that stops them working very closely and intimately with the Mr Trump, a man who has definitely redefined what being a President means.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Dell's 'Corporate Social Responsibility' page

            Like most large companies, they are (and do) the opposite of what they say.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dell is loyal?

      OK, so you just became one of very few voices able to champion their agenda with POTUS. There is a strong argument to say it's smarter to stay in that position than to walk away from it.

  4. redpawn Silver badge

    No Surprise

    Our Cheto 'n Chief has been spewing racist comments for decades excused as "let Trump be Trump" he is not a politician. He just got a little too loud with his white supremacist ranting yesterday for most business folk to tollerate and one of the groups he claimed to disband had already done so.

    Standing against Nazis and their sympathizers is not optional for a president.

    Resign Now! You are beneath contempt.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The question I want to ask is that now cloudflare has f*cked them off are they really that popular that it's worth them getting the extra redundancy to mitigate ddos attacks?

    That's a worrying thought as I just assumed this was used by marginalised pricks who w*nk off to homosexual porn (nothing against the gays btw) in the bedroom at their mothers house.

    1. John G Imrie Silver badge

      are they really that popular

      No, not popular, but there are a lot of Hacker groups, think Anonymous, who would like to gain credit for knocking them off the web, again.

  6. bombastic bob Silver badge
    Megaphone

    Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

    Trump doesn't speak this language.

    neither do I.

    Trump told the truth about BOTH SIDES being wrong. The white supremacy ass-hats had a permit, and they should be allowed to speak [even if we hate what they say].

    But of course, a bunch of VIOLENT counter-protesters showed up, "ready to rumble". And they did.

    Some people were there protesting the removal of a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee, a figure from history, and the re-naming of the park. And yet, the news media would have everyone believe that Trump is a racist simply because he didn't utter the correct "key words" and "tricky phrases" within the narrow time frame as determined by the left-wing LAME-STREAM media.

    It was the fault of BOTH sides. This is what Trump said. It is the truth. It is a fact. And no matter how anyone *FEEEEELS* about it (not 'think' but 'feel', the 'F' word) the truth is the truth.

    The left just needs to put on their "big boy" pants and DEAL WITH IT.

    1. redpawn Silver badge

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

      @bombastic bob,

      How sad your life must be having not found your own "big boy pants" after all these years. Wake up and smell the coffee. Your president is worse than a train wreck. He is a liar, a racist and a corporate criminal. The sooner you wake up and Trump leaves the better.

      Yes in this case I am feeding the little Troll. Sorry El Reg. I tried not to react.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

      Bob, Bob, Bob, sorry but the facts are as follows,

      Protesters with permit stage rally.

      Anti-protesters using the same freedom rights stage counter rally.

      Original protester drives car into other rally.

      Anti-protesters die.

      Trump does not condemn murderers at start and even goes on to say they are as bad as each other.

      How can you claim one side is more violent than the other when one side kills people on the other side?

      It's not your fault, you have been programmed to see left and right, why not step back and look at the facts? I couldn't give a shit about left or right, they are both as bad as each other when taken to extremes.

      If I was to hazard a guess as to what the bigger picture is I would think that by causing social unrest you can instigate martial law, where America goes from that is anyone's guess but it won't be pretty.

    3. Palpy

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"???

      Like "racist Nazis" is tricky for Bomba Bob to understand, I suppose.

      As has been noticed by rational people, Nazis and race supremacists want to take the rights, and sometimes the lives, of other human beings. That's the mainstay of their political ideology.

      Those who try to keep that from happening are the opposite -- they are fighting for equal rights for all human beings.

      Looks like Bomba Bob has chosen his side. It's the one Himmler and Goering were on.

      1. Jaybus

        Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"???

        "Those who try to keep that from happening are the opposite -- they are fighting for equal rights for all human beings."

        That would be nice! However, I don't see Antifa in that role. When I see them attack in their black uniforms with helmets and bats, I am more reminded of the Communist vs Nazi riots of Weimar Republic Germany. Yes, Himmler and Goering ended up on the winning side of that one, but not for lack of trying by the SPD. And btw, both sides wanted to take the rights, and sometimes lives, of other human beings. And both sides attempt to do so by terrorizing the middle (ie. sane people). Given that we also have an example of the case where the far left / alt left / Bolshevik side ended up on the winning side, how can you blame someone for refusing to believe that one is better than the other?

    4. TheElder

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

      The US permits very "free speech". It is in the Constitution. It is my opinion that if you think the law is incorrect then fix the laws, don't break them. Just like speed limits. I do not speed, I drive the legal limit. I also have a perfect driving record. That reduces my insurance cost by 40%.

      1. samzeman

        Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

        What can one person do to fix laws they disagree with? You can't vote on that stuff if you're not in congress. There isn't a candidate out of the two that could ever win that supports my views.

        Also, disregarding ethics for the law is a terrible idea, and the constitution was written by slave owners, and this isn't a situation where.... wait.

        Hold on.

        This is actually a situation where that particular free speech does apply, I think, as it's Trump doing it. Huh. Never thought I'd see the day. Still, morals and ethics should come above the law.

    5. Bloodbeastterror

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

      @bombastic bob

      How is it that I can identify your posts before I look at your name? Is it the irrelevant and random use of CAPS? Is it the absurd and badly-stated rantings?

      But in this case, welcome. You've got right inside Trump's head and managed to convey the chaos within. Well done. Good job.

    6. Florida1920 Silver badge

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

      But of course, a bunch of VIOLENT counter-protesters showed up, "ready to rumble". And they did.

      You're so full of crap it's coming out your mouth. The Nazis used pepper spray and violence against unarmed protesters. Look at the videos. White supremacists trash with a permit are still white trash. Any president who lacks the balls to say that isn't worthy of the position.

      Oh, and another thing: Robert E. Lee was a goddamned traitor. That statue and every other monument to traitorous Confederates should be melted and the bronze thrown into the sea.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

        Hang on a bit... "White <supremacists> trash with a permit are still white trash" (sorry, I can't replicate the strike-out line) isn't what I'd call fair comment.

        There's a distinction between "white trash" and "white supremacists" - it's only the latter group which is CERTAINLY malignant. Being poor, disadvantaged, disaffected, and (I dare say) somewhat dysfunctional doesn't make you a Nazi.

      2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        "Oh, and another thing: Robert E. Lee was a goddamned traitor. "

        I suspect that might have something to do with a sense of "Peace and reconciliation" following the American Civil War. Letting bygones be bygones and all that.

        Kind of a "We're all Americans now, not North or South" idea.

        It lead to the birth of a nation (in several senses of the phrase).

        1. Florida1920 Silver badge

          Re: "Oh, and another thing: Robert E. Lee was a goddamned traitor. "

          I suspect that might have something to do with a sense of "Peace and reconciliation" following the American Civil War.

          Lee was a sworn officer in the United States Army. He ignored his oath and joined the rebels. The Charlottesville statue dates to the 1920s, during a period when the KKK was resurgent and whites wanted to reassert their supremacy. That it has endured this long is a disgrace. That it is "old" and depicts a historical figure in no way justifies its continued public presence.

      3. Mark 85 Silver badge

        Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

        Oh, and another thing: Robert E. Lee was a goddamned traitor. That statue and every other monument to traitorous Confederates should be melted and the bronze thrown into the sea.

        Funny thing (not ha-ha funny) is that Lee didn't want to see any either. He believed the country needed to heal and one way to help that healing was "no statues".

    7. JLV Silver badge

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

      @BB

      Dude, let it go. Any such arguments would be of debatable value, if there were no Nazis involved. Then, yeah, you could argue that Robert E. Lee is an almost legendary military figure - he was.

      But... there are reasons why renowned WW2 German military leaders, like Guderian or Rommel, don't have too many statues erected in their name. The causes they fought for make it hard to eulogize them, no matter what their personal politics were (Rommel got executed for supporting the plot to kill Hitler). Speaking from the POV of a military history fan, I'll say that's in a way regrettable, but one also needs to respect the feelings of those who suffered under those regimes.

      That would always have been a touchy debate.

      Mix in Nazis, not just right-wing nutcases, but swastika-carrying right-wing nutcases and El Trump should have had the political common sense, if not decency, not to equivocate in his condemnation. That he didn't the first time around ("I wuz just lookin fer da facts") is bad enough.

      That he was stupid enough to re-fuck that up 2 days later is just lamentable. That you're not able to get that yourself is fully in line with expectations.

      If you're into promoting Southern pride and historical sensibility, from a perhaps "slightly white-centric viewpoint", that's your choice and 1st amendment right. But choosing to defend it in a context of Nazi involvement really only helps to discredit it in the view of the majority. Instead, he should have condemned it outright and re-framed the Robert E Lee aspect at a later point.

      You, and Trump, don't have the common sense to see that.

      Bit like I deeply regret Le Pen senior, who could always be counted on to say something stupid like "the Holocaust? A historical detail". His daughter's much more dangerous because she is better able to further the French extreme right's agenda.

      Luckily, while Trump did get himself elected, he's been sufficiently clumsy politically - and to be fair, just in plain managerial incompetence - that he's achieved quite little so far.

    8. Alt C

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

      Bob please, I know you like to defend Trump at every opportunity and you're entitled to that reality distortion field but it is not in any way PC to come out and say Nazis are bad - whoop do do they had a permit the others didn't but they would be the first once in power to ban any sort of protest with or without a permit - they like to paint themselves as victims every time.

      Very nearly everyone in the free world knows the only way to deal with these people is head on. c.f. the history of the run up to the second world war.

      In previous posts both you and big John have gone on about how the 'leftists' like to smash things up when they protest and the right don't - well you've been proved correct the alt-right kill people - me i'll take my protesters smashing a few windows rather than driving cars into people and killing them thanks.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        The right don't smash things up? Eh? Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

        What's this idea about "the right" (i.e., neo-Nazi types) not smashing things up?

        What about Kristallnacht? Or, for that matter, the Night of the Long Knives?

        Have these people not heard of history?

        The whole point, the heart and soul, of Nazi methods, is to smash things up and murder the opposition with the intention of terrorizing any potential opposition into cowed submission.

        That's why those who oppose neo-Nazi types are right to do everything in their power to marginalize, belittle, ostracize, undermine, and - should the neo-Nazi types try it on - fight them physically. It's either that, or allow the horror to re-run itself.

        To borrow a trope from "them": such actions are a regrettable necessity in order to preserve our culture and civilization against the inferior folk who seek to overwhelm the flower of humanity (by "inferior folk" I mean "neo-Nazi scumbags"; by "flower of humanity" I mean everyone and anyone of any and every nation, race, creed, colour, sex, sexuality, age, and so on who's not a neo-Nazi scumbag).

        Not only that, opposing neo-Nazis doesn't make you left wing or any other wing - it just shows that you're fighting for decency, humanity, and civilization.

        Seriously, Germany from circa 1933-1945 provides the lesson here: if the decent people don't fight the Nazis with everything to hand, they can take over and then it's horror piled upon horror. If Mr Godwin, the man behind Godwin's law, says it's okay to compare these modern neo-Nazi types to actual historical Nazis, you know it's serious.

        1. The First Dave

          Re: The right don't smash things up? Eh? Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

          @AC

          "Have these people not heard of history?" - said on a story that begins with tearing down what passes for an ancient monument in the USA.

        2. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: The right don't smash things up? Eh? Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

          "What about Kristallnacht? Or, for that matter, the Night of the Long Knives?"

          Nazis are actually MILITANT LEFTISTS, since they are 'National Socialists'. Fascism for some reason is considered right of center, though it's closer to communism. it's almost like it went around the circle and met the other extreme on the opposite side.

          These neo-nazi asshats should be allowed to speak. engaging in violent riots and other lawlessness should never be condoned. BOTH sides were wrong. that doesn't change. Quiet protest without violence is sufficient. There aren't very many of them, and if you consider ME to be trolling, consider what THEY do...

          (and you fell right into their trap, didn't you?)

          1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Big Brother

            " it's almost like it went around the circle and met the other extreme on the opposite side."

            Funny how that works, isn't it?

            The key point is not wheather the person who's stamping on your face is a Fascist or a Communist.

            It's the stamping itself.

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: " it's almost like it went around the circle and met the other extreme on the opposite side."

              Left wing nuts, right wing nuts, what's the difference? They are all power hungry, and a disease on the backs of humanity. Is there a cure? They say laughter is the best medicine ... and you've got to admit it, they are pretty clownish.

              I propose that all wingnuts should be pointed out and laughed into oblivion. If enough people do it, it should work fairly quickly, there is nothing they hate more than not being taken seriously.

              Imagine, if 50 people a day ...

          2. Merchman

            Re: The right don't smash things up? Eh? Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

            Just because they had "Socialists" in their name does not make them such. Try educating yourself.

            https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/898254826277978113

    9. jake Silver badge

      PDNFTT (was: Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases")

      Those who feed trolls are doomed to keep them.

    10. Winkypop Silver badge

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

      Trump is exactly the tyranny that the founding fathers warned of.

    11. Palpy

      Re: Political Correctness and my previous post.

      OK, I compared Bombastic Bob to Himmler and Goering. I was angry. I apologize.

      Here's why I was angry. I was going through my late mother's effects. I found a photo album marked "1943", an album I had never seen before. It had pictures of young men in Army uniforms, Navy uniforms. Young men in Jeeps, hugging pretty girls (my mother!) and mugging for the camera.

      They were going overseas to fight fascists. To fight Nazis. And if they had happened on Richard Spencer carrying one of his swastika flags, they would have taken him out behind the bar and beaten the stuffing out of him.

      My uncle flew a bomber in the Pacific theatre. The attrition rate in the early war was horrific; he survived. He wrote letters home about killing the dirty, subhuman Japs. And a few years after the war, he asked for those letters back. He was ashamed of his hatred, ashamed of the inhumanity of his words. He no longer wanted to fire even a hunting rifle.

      I do not favor violence. But if we must fight Nazis in America, we will fight them. If we have to fight racist bastards in our country, then we will fight them.

      There is no excuse for the white supremacists in America. There is no excuse for neo-Nazis in America. And there is no excuse for those who refuse to stand against them -- with words and actions. The Nazis came to Charlottesville carrying clubs, and wearing armor, and primed for violence. Then let violence be visited upon them.

      My mother served in the Marines, in a time when women could not fight but could serve on the home front. I cannot do anything but honor everyone who stood against the Nazis in Charlottesville. I cannot do anything but rage against a President who dishonors his office by pretending that those who stand against Nazi racists are as bad as the Nazis themselves.

      OK, that got awfully serious. Here's something more fitting for our august and sarcastic forum: Bob, I have scrubbed scum out of my toilet bowl which is more ethically honorable than the scum which currently occupies the White House.

      That is all.

      1. lorisarvendu

        Re: Political Correctness and my previous post.

        @Palpy. You do your Uncle proud sir! You damn well better not get any downvotes for that post.

      2. jamesb2147

        Re: Political Correctness and my previous post.

        @Palpy - I understand where you're coming from. Unfortunately, the Nazis really *want* you to go to war with them. It'll start the Great Race War and even if they individually die, they'll know there's some closet racist out there who will be inspired to take their place and kill a few good black people.

        Ultimately, if you're not with them when it comes to creating a nation of "clean" folks, they'll kill you to make it happen. Whatever it takes.

        You might be interested in researching Life After Hate, a support group founded by an ex-neo-Nazi, Christian Picciolini. He has an informed opinion on the topic, more than I can say for 99% of people, myself included.

    12. td97402

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

      Bob says: “Trump told the truth about BOTH SIDES being wrong.“

      My reply is that violence to advance hate and bigotry is no virtue and violence to fight hate and bigotry is no vice.

      The two sides are not both wrong. You espouse a false eqivalence and thereby give cover to the Nazis, KKK and their ilk. It actually makes you one of them.

    13. PapaD

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

      So, by this logic

      During the second world war, the allies were as much to blame as Hitler and the Nazis, for not just accepting their hateful rhetoric, invasions and general destruction of everything we hold dear.

      And to not condemn this kind of rhetoric is a tacit acknowledgement of it as acceptable.

      This is not an alt-let/alt-right thing, this should be an everyone vs a hateful/racist minority.

    14. Tom 38 Silver badge

      Re: Political Correctness "key words" and "tricky phrases"

      You don't turn up to a peaceful rally wearing combat gear and carrying assault rifles. I'm just saying, that's an unpeaceful rally.

      Trump isn't a racist because he burns crosses, or uses pejorative racist language; he is a racist because he gives his tacit approval to those who do by refusing to condemn them. This isn't speculation, it is what these fascists themselves reported after he first spoke on the matter on Saturday - encouraged and relieved.

  7. TrumpSlurp the Troll Silver badge
    Trollface

    Daily Stormtrooper?

    Couple of newspapers here could use that site if it is going free.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Daily Stormtrooper?

      To be fair the death star did have all the correct permits so it's only right the rebels take some of the blame - Daily Mail-Storm-Trooper.

      1. 0laf Silver badge
        Pirate

        Re: Daily Stormtrooper?

        News Thump story:

        http://newsthump.com/2017/08/16/donald-trump-says-rebel-alliance-must-also-take-blame-for-violence-as-death-star-had-all-the-required-permits/

        Actually I heartily recommend News Thump and the Daily Mash for the appropriate satirical take on the Trump presidency

  8. Bloodbeastterror

    Funny old world. I was in the market for a new laptop, with Dell's XPS13 at number one in my list. I went elsewhere. And now I'm glad I made the right choice. I wouldn't want to have provided funding for an organisation which supports racists.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      That's pretty much any organisation that pays tax to the government these days.

      Edit: Just thought about this and they don't pay tax anyway.

    2. Kernel

      "Funny old world. I was in the market for a new laptop, with Dell's XPS13 at number one in my list. I went elsewhere. And now I'm glad I made the right choice. "

      And now, to complete the job, you need to email the highest up person in Dell that you can find and tell them why you made that decision and how you feel about their company's continued support for racists - people who refuse to buy from Dell over this issue need to also tell them that they are spending their money with Dell's competitors.

  9. PhilipN Silver badge

    Fascists marching in the streets

    Freedom of speech - what a bitch!

    P.S. No weapons (guns, cars etc.) please - I'm British.

    1. Geoffrey W Silver badge

      Re: Fascists marching in the streets

      Freedom of reply - Even bigger bitch.

      PS...No raised eyebrows, tutting, or head shaking. I'm British too.

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: Fascists marching in the streets

        Being British, we don't have Freedom of Speech protected. However, Freedom of Speech does not give you the right to shout "Fire!" in a crowded cinema anyway.

        In any case I'm more interested in protecting Freedom of Informed Discussion, which isn't the same thing. First up, the noise levels need to be turned down - politicians, media, PC brigade, rabble rousers, FOX, anything that acts as a distorting filter. No-one should be barred from the the discussion for the views they hold at the outset - because the point of discussion is change them, or to open to be changed by them. Sometimes people with reprehensible views have genuine grievances but have grasped at the wrong solutions. Sometimes they feel their problems have been brushed over in the past, and they might be right. Sometimes they are just jerks.

        1. 2Nick3 Bronze badge

          Re: Fascists marching in the streets

          "First up, the noise levels need to be turned down - politicians, media, PC brigade, rabble rousers, FOX, anything that acts as a distorting filter."

          You missed CNN in that list. They're the mirror image of FOX - exactly the same, just switching right and left...

          1. StheD
            Holmes

            Re: Fascists marching in the streets

            You ever actually watch CNN? They are so desperate to be balanced that they hired Corey Lewandowski as a commentator though he was contractually obligated to never say anything bad about Trump. Once in a while the CNN anchors call Trumpists on outright lies. Is that left wing bias?

            MSNBC has at least a point of view, though they don't lie like Faux News does.

            Sherlock to find the truth (he never watches Fox.)

    2. Uncle Slacky Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Fascists marching in the streets

      Cable Street ring any bells?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street

  10. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
    Facepalm

    policy issues that affect our company,

    share our perspective on policy issues that affect our company, customers and employees,

    I thought this committee was all about "Making America Great Again", not about Making Dell Richer Again. These people are supposed to be there to advise The President on how to best improve the economy as a whole, not just their own little fiefdoms. Will the new rallying cry be "A stronger Dell means a Stronger America! Vote Dell!"

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Todays NEWS "highlights"

    A story about Trump and his crazy right-wing beliefs...

    More about:

    ----------------

    Donald Trump

    Charlottesville

    President of the United States

    Neo-Nazism

  12. thomas k

    Credit where it's due

    Kudos to the ones who resigned on Monday, raspberries to the ones who said they'd stay on but then resigned today.

    1. Mark 85 Silver badge

      Re: Credit where it's due

      Well, better a day late than not resigning.

  13. John Savard Silver badge

    Oh, dear

    I do not disagree with the premise that Antifa and even Black Lives Matter are also groups that are less than perfect in their respect for the law and the rights of others.

    But when someone peacefully protesting against racism is murdered, to claim that "both sides" are somehow to blame for what happened does seem objectionable.

    It looks like the political battle that is going on is this:

    One side believes that it's as inappropriate to have statues of Confederate generals still standing in this day and age in the South as it would be to have statues of German generals during World War II standing in Germany. Both fought to defend systems that caused immense suffering to members of a particular ethnic group which those systems disdained.

    Another side - which includes a lot of Americans who aren't members of any neo-Nazi or white supremacist organizations - believes that the appropriate course of action after the end of the Civil War was the one that was largely taken in fact - one of reconciliation and not triumphalism. One that extended respect to the defeated South.

    This is why, even in this day and age, removing statues of Confederate generals wherever they may still stand is not a completely non-controversial no-brainer in the United States.

    And so Donald Trump's comments, clumsy as they were, are seen by some as resulting from a legitimate and appropriate goal: not to allow the government to be manipulated by the death of Heather Heyer into upsetting a balance that helped the nation heal the wounds of the Civil War, into denying the defeated South its self-respect.

    My personal position on this is that such a position would make perfect sense, if black Americans did not exist (perhaps they could have all moved to Liberia?), but because they do exist, it doesn't, and there's nothing wrong with "manipulating" the government into doing what should have been done more than a hundred years ago. But blindness is not the same thing as hate.

    1. Geoffrey W Silver badge

      Re: Oh, dear

      I'm a little divided over statues of controversial figures, and Britain has its share of them too - Francis Drake and Cecil Rhodes for instance. Personally I would rather see them left in place, for historical reasons, but only if it were made very clear what it was they did and who they hurt and who they lynched. A big prominent plaque giving full details, though that would be an easy target for sympathetic vandals to deface. Perhaps such statues could be supplied with indelible markers and an invitation to improve them in whatever way the viewer saw fit. The addition of silly hats and big red noses would be useful opportunities for expression of ones disgust. They could be a Rorschach expression of our cultural ID. Perhaps the central points of outdoor urinals. Just a few ideas. Anything, but don't aggrandize them anymore, or accord them any respect they do not really deserve.

      1. 0laf Silver badge

        Re: Oh, dear

        I think you might be right. to remove these statues is maybe akin to rubbing out a nations mistakes. And if you erase your mistakes you are much more likely to repeat them.

      2. samzeman

        Re: Keep the statues

        I think otherwise. Statues should be made of those who have demonstrated skill, ethics, and justice in their actions. The history of the bad people wouldn't be erased (Books and the internet will be okay), and you could just leave the plinth there as a reminder that glorification of those people isn't tolerated.

        On the other hand, what's wrong with erasing their individual identities from history? Keep knowledge of the movement going. Make a statue of a bear eating the confederate flag or whatever. But don't pick people out of it. Maybe it'll depersonalize it, and people will make the same mistakes again... but can you say confidently that we aren't repeating those mistakes anyway?

    2. Galimatias

      Re: Oh, dear

      Hi John. Thanks for the thought provoking post. Just to add some meandering thoughts...

      "This is why, even in this day and age, removing statues of Confederate generals wherever they may still stand is not a completely non-controversial no-brainer in the United States."

      Of course, whether there is controversy depends on the community and people who's "brains" are being considered.

      In Baltimore, MD there *was* a statue of Supreme Court Justice Roger B. Taney - you know, the justice who wrote the main opinion in the Dred Scott v. Sandford saying that Black people, well - in his words:

      "It is difficult at this day to realize the state of public opinion in regard to that unfortunate race which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted; but the public history of every European nation displays it in a manner too plain to be mistaken. They had for more than a century before been regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far unfit that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect."

      Maryland never seceded from the Union, but Baltimore was sympathetic to the southern cause. So in the 1870's a statue was erected of Justice Taney {the man who wrote the previous paragraph saying that people of my race weren't deserving of citizenship} right across the street from a monument to George Washington, a man who fought for the emergence of our nation and the freedom of her citizens {most of them at least}.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_B._Taney_(sculpture)

      The statue was removed earlier this week - no violence or protests, unanimous consent of the City Council, and with widespread approval of the community. Personally, while I begrudgingly accepted its presence when walking in the area, I appreciated the removal of what was a basically a 'fuck you, you don't count' reminder to me and people who look like me.

      I suppose for some people the removal of these statues might be a matter of debate: allowing the Confederacy to retain it's self-respect in defeat {respect which, after the war, they never extended to the Blacks living in their borders} - historic significance {perhaps, but there are thousands of detailed histories, volumes, books, historical sites and contemporary writings that can be referenced regarding the history behind the insurrection against the US} - and other arguments presented with immaculately constructed semantic and logical constructs which, while satisfying to the persons voicing them, don't honestly address the motivation and true message of those who created these objects, nor the deleterious spiritual and emotional effects on those who were the intended targets.

      For me, their existence and the reaction they elicit is real and visceral. While I passively tolerated the Taney statue, it was to me a physical symbol of a persistent racial pathology that this country has only with great difficulty acknowledged or dealt with. If the saddening death of Heather Heyer "manipulates" the government to remove or relocate some of these statues, so be it. The reality of the murders of Black people, throughout history, at the hands of those malignantly motivated by the ideologies these statues represent has never "manipulated" the government to eradicate these statues. The peaceful protests of Black people and others has barely been able to "manipulate" the government to remove or relocate the statues.

      I wonder sometimes if a root of the problem is a "feature" of the American social-economic-political-racial construct to bestow unconditional "supremacy" to the attitudes and voices of some individuals or groups over others. Maybe that partly explains the macabre irony of a Taney statue in a town with what is now a majority Black population... I see the German people not having such "debates" regarding public representations of their WWII "history", and wonder if it might be because they are a culturally monochromatic society, capable of unified introspection without equivocation or delusion??

      Anyway, thanks again for your post. It's been a long and emotionally upsetting week for some of us here in the USA, and I guess I just needed to vent & ramble a bit. My apologies to the forum for any annoyance for the not entirely on topic post...

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Debatable headline

    I think this is a rare case where the headline is subject to debate and may have exchanged accuracy for hanging on to a pretty worn cliché.

    As far as I can tell, enough people resigned to make the manufacturing council untenable as representative, or, put another way, the council pretty much fired Trump!

    Of course, some will have stayed on because this is America, and the remainers obviously figured that the general diminishing support for both Trump and Nazis would mean they could drive up prices for both. You want to take note of those people because they resemble the military industry in that they are quite willing to literally go over bodies to make a buck. I haven't seen yet if Trump's megalomania has already reached the stage where you could say they're in good company (so far, he has not started a war to deflect from the Russia investigation but N Korea was a ridiculously close call).

    The man is a menace.

    Note, however, that you don't need to be in the US for those bodies to include yours.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What happened to the many CEOs he had waiting?

    "For every CEO that drops out of the Manufacturing Council, I have many to take their place." - Trump, 15th August.

    1. bobbear

      Re: What happened to the many CEOs he had waiting?

      "For every CEO that drops out of the Manufacturing Council, I have many to take their place." - Trump, 15th August."

      Just another Trump 'Alt Truth' - the man turns lying into an art form without even realising it. I don't know why he still keeps banging on about the 'Fake News Media' when he keeps demonstrating his stupidity every time he tweets or opens his mouth in recorded public appearances..

      People with a few brain cells stop digging when they've dug themselves into a hole. Hand Trump a shovel and he re-doubles his efforts..

      1. Wulfhaven

        Re: What happened to the many CEOs he had waiting?

        Being a bumbling buffoon is not an art form. And his lying is on that level, it is transparent, stupid and sorely lacking.

        He does it a lot, but he is really shitty at it.

    2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Coat

      ""For every CEO that drops out of the Mfg Council, I have many to take their place." -"

      "Cut off one head and two will grow in it's place."

      Was I the only person who saw the D his inauguration raise both arms and thought "Heil Hydra."

      1. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

        Re: ""For every CEO that drops out of the Mfg Council, I have many to take their place." -"

        Was I the only person who saw the D his inauguration raise both arms and thought "Heil Hydra."

        At the time, yes,, but I also had later flashbacks to Emperor Pirk in Star Wreck in the Pirkinning, with Bannon as a less competent but sartorially compatible Fukov..

        I must get out more :).

  16. Dave 126 Silver badge

    The Plot Against America is a novel by Philip Roth published in 2004. It is an alternative history in which Franklin Delano Roosevelt is defeated in the presidential election of 1940 by Charles Lindbergh. The novel follows the fortunes of the Roth family during the Lindbergh presidency, as antisemitism becomes more accepted in American life and Jewish-American families like the Roths are persecuted on various levels.

  17. s. pam
    Headmaster

    Industry to Trump: You're a fucktard

    Poor little Cheetos McTinyhands is finding no one wants to play with him.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Trump's horrendous

    Trump, whether he realizes it or not, is simply following the Alt-right/Libertarian agenda of dismantling or making useless Government in the US. It doesn't matter to them that this will result in much death and hatred. It's all part of their bigger plan. The fact that many of the supporter of those groups will die when their Lefty Government Medicaid/Welfare is cut off or reduced seems to be less important to them than their political beliefs OR more probably they haven't put 2 and 2 together to come up with 4.

  19. handleoclast Silver badge

    On Censorship

    I see that censorship has been endorsed by several commentards.

    There is one, and only one, reason for censorship that I find at all compelling in these arguments: that letting these evil people glorify themselves encourages more fools to join them. But I don't find it compelling enough.

    I could quote various philosophers who opposed censorship, but that is argument from authority. So, instead, let me give the reason why censoring these evil pieces of shit is a bad idea.

    Censorship is the go-to tool of the bad guys.

    Once the bad guys get in power they use censorship to eradicate attempts to get them out of power.

    "Oh, but this is justified censorship" I hear you say. You can't prove that. You'd need the omniscience and ultra-intelligence of a god to be certain of that. But, for the sake of argument, suppose that purely by accident you're right and have arrived at the same conclusion a god would. Censor for one reason and you'll find others, and you're still not a god, so those reasons won't be justifiable even by a god. Yeah, slippery slope arguments are sometimes wrong, but look at the expansion and misuse of gov't snooping powers of late.

    You can justify censorship in some cases. Maybe. Stories of child molestation, and cartoons of child molestation don't involve harm to actual individuals in their production but can be used to normalize such behaviour by exposing children to them. "Think of the children" is a valid (though often misused) reason. "Think of the adults daft enough to fall for this stuff" is not.

    "Oh, but these adult idiots are really idiots and easily led" I hear you say. Kim Jong-un, Mousey Dung, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, etc. all claimed that by censoring opposition they were protecting the gullible and the stupid. In the USSR it was considered a form of mental illness to criticise Stalin.

    In any case, sunlight is the best disinfectant. You cannot expose the idiocy of these people if they go underground.

    Censorship is a tool of the bad guys. If you insist on using it, you become one of the bad guys. Frustrating, but true.

    1. JLV Silver badge

      Re: On Censorship

      Ummm... the only "censor.+" found here is in your posting.

      And, why would one want to censor anything? These clowns are hanging themselves.

      I've wondered what it would take to whittle down Trump's core 30-40% of supporters. You know, the guys that voted, perhaps not the way some would have preferred, but exercised their right to pick the guy. And, not to vote Dem if they are Rep. Their right.

      Impeach Trump now, as some suggest, will convince that 30-40% they are being oppressed. That's a good springboard for Trump 2 later (Cruz?). Best to have him visibly pee in the punch bowl a bit more first and lose more support. Trouble is, anything sufficiently blatant to wake that core up will probably be pretty nasty for the US. And potentially the world, like a botched NK intervention.

      On the other hand, I would find it hard to believe that a sizeable portion of that 40% likes, or wants to be associated with, _real_ Nazis. This whole sorry episode is a pretty complication-free event that isolates Trump some more with limited actual downsides. If I were a reasonable Southern white favoring Confederate heritage, I'd be fuming at Trump and the Charlottesville event organizers for mucking that up. It ain't gonna cut his 40% by half, or even a quarter, he hasn't quite screwed it up enough, but it's chipping at the edges.

      You could almost blame the media for hyping it up, except Trump chose to put his foot in his mouth himself.

      Twice. And firing the CEOs to boot.

      Censorship? Why??? Popcorn! Ditto with counter-violence by the Antifa groups - 100% with Peter2's post, there is no _need_ to confront isolated Nazis violently in this instance. Yes, in another time and place. Not here and now.

  20. Peter2 Silver badge

    If somebody can't win a reasoned argument with a skinhead neo nazi as judged by the general population, and are concerned that neo nazi views will resonate with the public to the point that they have to be stopped from getting their message out by physically attacking them in a riot then it is an implicit admission that:-

    1) The rioter can't win an argument with an uneducated skinhead. (as judged by the general population)

    2) The rioter is less convincing and persuasive than an uneducated, criminally violent and psycopathic skinhead. (as judged by the general population)

    3) The rioter is concerned that neo nazi views will gain traction with the general public, which is an implicit admission that they think their views and politics are actually less attractive to the public than actual neo nazi facism.

    4) The rioter is a complete, total imbecile.

    Physically attacking people to temporarily supress discussion is a contemptible level of discource that strenghens these groups by attracting football holigans and the like who just want to riot and fight who probably will actually be attracted to their views.

    Peaceful groups protesting what from a reasonable observer might consider reasonable (such as being against violent mobs vandalising public statues) end up being radicalised if they are attacked or exposed to violent nutters. The population as a whole ends up being entrenched in views of "violent nutters assualting non violent people is ok" or "violence has no place on our streets" which makes it rather harder to persuade people with reasonable discussion.

    In short, the violent nutters on both sides are contemptible morons and deserve to be denounced. The people who are being violent who have the supposed benefit of an education should be able to reason out why their course of action is counterproductive to their aim. If they can't, then their education was clearly a considerable waste of time, money and effort.

    Before and during WW2 facist literiature such as Mein Kampf was widely available in the UK. It was debated, riddiculed and logically and methodically destroyed in reasoned debate and remained widely available during the war. Did Britain end up with a huge number of 5th columnists?

    Uh, no. Facist 5th columnists were much less of a problem than the communists who were in fact actively sabotaging military production up until Nazi Germany attacked the Soviet Union, at which point communist activity focused on increasing war production and shipping more weapons to the Soviet Union.

    Winning an argument is much better than winning a riot where the riot is won, and the argument is lost.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "1) The rioter can't win an argument with an uneducated skinhead. "

      That's fair except for 2 things.

      The "uneducated skinhead" drove his car into a crowd of rioters.

      In fact they were not actually rioting but standing around in peaceful protest.

      But if what you described had happened you'd be right.

      I like to remember that the root word of "ridiculous" is "ridicule" IE to mock.

      The "Alt Right" like all extremists and bullies want to be feared, when they should be laughed at, mocked and show to be ridiculous, both in their logic and their actions.

  21. nijam

    > The Stormer is now a .onion hidden service on Tor.

    The dark web, how droll.

  22. Tom Servo

    He's certainly entertaining?

    WAPO : Whitehouse insiders say Donald Trump shits his pants.

    HUCKABEE-SANDERS et al: We condemn these scurrilous rumours from anonymous sources that show how biased the MSM is that they are fixated on spreading their false narrative and not focusing on the issues real Americans care about.

    ! day later at next Press conference

    TRUMP : I SHIT MY PANTS!

  23. whbjr
    FAIL

    Keep talking, but nobody's listening

    I would admire Michael Dell for sticking with the now-gone council, in the hopes of influencing the president. I would admire that with just about any other president. However, this president is only going to listen to the voices in his head, he's not listening to Michael Dell, or any others, unless they echo what he's already decided. It's just as well that he's disbanded the council - now they can go back to realizing that they were wasting thei time.

  24. HurdImpropriety

    Oh look blaming Trump

    Oh look, blaming Trump for racism. Martin Luther King was against the gay life style just ask his daughter Bernice. No problem.

    How about not getting all George's Orwellian on statues in the first place moron liberal moonbats....

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Oh look blaming Trump

      Nobody here has blamed Trump for racism, wingnut.

      Nobody here has mentioned MLK except you, HurdImpropriety.

      Would you kindly use your 7th grade edumacation to explain what you mean by "getting all George's Orwellian" on things? Inquiring minds want to know.

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