back to article Ubuntu Linux now on Windows Store (for Insiders)

Microsoft finally confirmed that Hell has indeed frozen over – Ubuntu is at long last available from the Windows Store. Canonical's Linux distro is now available for installation on Windows Store on Insider build 16215 and higher. Windows 10 already supports Ubuntu via the Windows Subsystem for Linux, rolled out in the …

  1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    How else would they be able to slurp Linux users?

    1. Snorlax
      FAIL

      @Doctor Syntax: "How else would they be able to slurp Linux users?"

      Yeah, that's why they're doing it - "slurping" the less than 2% of desktop users running linux would be a rewarding task...

      Talk about an inflated sense of self-worth.

      1. m0rt Silver badge

        HAHAHAHAH ahhahahahhha HEEEEEEEEEE *SNORT* ha aha ha h ha haa *COUGH* HAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaaa....ha...ha...chortle...titter..*CHOKING SOUND* GUFFAW HHaHAHAHAHHAHAAHhahahahahahahahahahaha *gasps* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahaahhahahahah AHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAhahahaahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa......

        ahh snorlax. Thanks for that.

        So glad you brought your childhood Amiga vs ST rants with you into adulthood.

        1. Christopher Reeve's Horse

          "So glad you brought your childhood Amiga vs ST rants with you into adulthood."

          Once Atari, always Atari. My trusty 1040STE is still boxed and ready in the attic, just in case this whole PCMasterrace thing doesn't work out...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Happy

            STE?...Amateur.

            If you were a true Atari person, you'd have a at least a TT or even better a Falcon.

            Mines a Falcon 040 with maths co-processor and internal HDD with CubaseVST locked and loaded....most likely somewhere in the loft, next to my Jaguar with CD drive....still waiting for my VR headset to arrive mind.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            amiga won, foo

            proper premptive multitasking not yet another CPM ripoff with it's so apt name

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_TOS

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        >Yeah, that's why they're doing it - "slurping" the less than 2% of desktop users running linux would be a rewarding task

        2% is the same percentage of the population that qualify for MENSA.

        1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge
        2. qwertyuiop
          Trollface

          Aaah, MENSA...

          In my experience a bunch of arrogant shits who seem to think they're better than everybody else.

          Who does that remind me of?

          1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

            "Aaah, MENSA"

            That fraction of the population who are too stupid to understand what's wrong with the notion of an IQ.

            1. Number6

              "Aaah, MENSA"

              That fraction of the population who are too stupid to understand what's wrong with the notion of an IQ.

              No, it's that fraction that's daft enough to pay the membership fee. It's perfectly possible to have a 150+ IQ and not waste your money.

              I do still remember Noel Edmonds taking the piss, starting a competing organisation he called DENSA for those who weren't smart enough, and then trying to persuade MENSA to offer a joint membership to him and his mate because the sum of their IQs was above the qualifying threshold.

              1. h4rm0ny

                >>I do still remember Noel Edmonds taking the piss, starting a competing organisation he called DENSA for those who weren't smart enough,

                Fun fact: DENSA and MENSA actually organized a wine and cheese party to meet each other once.

                MENSA forgot the cheese. (True story!)

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            MENSA = underachiever

            Yeah they get high mark in their tests but they drive buses in real life. They should rename it LOOSA

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: MENSA = underachiever

              >Yeah they get high mark in their tests but they drive buses in real life. They should rename it LOOSA

              Bitter, failed the test.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: MENSA = underachiever

                "Bitter, failed the test." nope, never applied to be a MENSA member but I have met a lot of them in real life and yes many were driving buses and similar jobs that showed that did not require greater inteligence than the average.

                My point was that if getting a high MENSA rating does not mean you are smart enough get a job where you use your brain then what is the point.

                I am sure that there a any number of people with above average intelligence that can also get high results in MENSA tests but it does not mean that the MENSA test is meaningful as a measure of intelligence or success.

                1. alexmcm

                  Re: MENSA = underachiever

                  "I am sure that there a any number of people with above average intelligence that can also get high results in MENSA tests"

                  Yeah, about 50% of them.

          3. Mike Lewis

            I found Mensa to be full of people who mistook thinking quickly for thinking well, much like a teenage boy who thinks he knows how to drive fast just because he has a car with a big engine.

          4. Avatar of They Silver badge
            Joke

            Ohhh goodie a quiz

            Is it Microsoft who think telemetry is the norm and gave up writing good software years ago? No Apple... They have a religion now and war like fanbois? Oh... Choices. Choices....

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          >2% is the same percentage of the population that qualify for MENSA.

          <Waves>

          And a pointless waste of money it was too (not that I paid - my parents did).

          But at least it have me bragging rights with my brother - I beat him..

          1. iron Silver badge

            Mensa

            "But at least it have me bragging rights with my brother - I beat him.."

            Clearly they didn't teach you English.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Mensa

              All these MCSE's who freeze when confronted by a command line.

              1. Snorlax

                Re: Mensa

                @Anonymous Coward: "All these MCSE's who freeze when confronted by a command line."

                Uhh, Server Core and Powershell have been around since Windows Server 2008 - you might want to Google them.

                It's pretty much impossible to get an MCSA/MCSE without knowing your way around a command line, but it's great to see the linux fanbois showing their ignorance. I'd post as an AC too if I was you...

              2. TheVogon Silver badge

                Re: Mensa

                "All these MCSE's who freeze when confronted by a 1970s inferior *nix non object orientated command line instead of Powershell that they are used to"

                TFTFY.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Unix Command line & MCSE's

                  If you think that is fun, think what would happen if they were faced with a VMS DCL Command line.

                  Joy, deep joy.

                2. naive

                  Re: Mensa

                  For me the complexity of Powershell is mind boggling, combined with a non-intuitive syntax from hell. When Unix ksh/bash/perl is compared to a lego kit with 20 different building blocks, MS Powershell needs over thousand to make the same thing. Even after an intensive course I see my MS colleagues struggle and avoid it all together when they can, luckily there is strawberry Perl for Windows, which makes non-trivial scripting on Windows easy. To me it is unclear why a serious company like MS started making such a monstrosity like Powershell at all, whatever they make, it all has this weird complexity and unpleasantness of it. Maybe it is the difference between OpenSource and paid stuff, OpenSource is made because people have fun doing it, while a company like MS thinks they can shovel anything through the throats of their users, since their boss orders them to use it.

                  1. Baldrickk Silver badge

                    Re: <strike>Mensa</strike> Powershell

                    I like the idea of powershell, an object based interface is a really nice concept.

                    And then they made it stupidly verbose. While some linux shell commands can tend the other way, it at least doesn't take an essay to do simple tasks.

                    1. h4rm0ny

                      Re: <strike>Mensa</strike> Powershell

                      >>And then they made it stupidly verbose

                      You know there is such a thing as auto-complete? Plus the vastly greater consistency of naming of both commands and parameters provides far more gain than the brevity of awk, sed, top, whatever.

                    2. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: <strike>Mensa</strike> Powershell

                      "And then they made it stupidly verbose"

                      You realise most common Powershell commands have abbreviations? And that you can create you own? And that it has autocomplete?

                  2. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Mensa

                    Powershell is really useful for me - it's a tool for administrators though, rather than developers so I would imagine there are circumstances in which something like Strawberry Perl would be preferable, although of course MS would push their won development tools in those cases.

                    I think that trying to get Powershell "to make the same thing" that people are used to doing in other shells / scripting languages is likely to be the cause of much of the frustration.

                    1. MyffyW Silver badge

                      Re: Mensa

                      With an IQ in the "nearly but not quite" tier for Mensa there's little prospect of me and Carol sharing a G&T. Personally I install Linux because it does the job with least fuss. I then have free time to indulge my smug commentard tendencies.

                  3. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Mensa

                    "For me the complexity of Powershell is mind boggling, combined with a non-intuitive syntax from hell."

                    Erm, no - it's basically plain English with very standard object orientated interface and scripting approaches that most modern programmers would immediately recognise.

                    "MS Powershell needs over thousand to make the same thing"

                    It's not the same thing. Powershell is a lot more powerful than ksh/bash/perl. As Powershell is fully modular, commandlets are frequently built for specific products and loaded into the environment in addition to the base functionality of the OS which might be what is confusing you. All have online help / search / autocomplete. Just use update-help and get-help if finding it difficult...

                    "To me it is unclear why a serious company like MS started making such a monstrosity like Powershell at all, "

                    Because there was a need for a modern, powerful and object orientated shell that wasn't a legacy from the 1970s...

                    1. Fluffy Cactus

                      Re: Mensa

                      With regard to Windows PowerShell: I must be very, very dumb, because I don't understand

                      it. Or else Windows & MSFT did not ever explain it properly.

                      I do not know what "very standard object orientated interface and scripting approaches" actually means.

                      I do remember what I could figure out all by myself: DOS 3 up to DOS 6.22, when the "help system"

                      actually did help. Also the Lotus 123 "Macro programming language", it make sense from just trying

                      it out. Worked nicely.

                      Those were the days when you could actually "update and re-install the operating

                      system" without having to re-install each and every program on your computer. In other words, those were the days when MSFT still honored that it was "YOUR COMPUTER, YOUR DATA, AND YOUR PROGRAMS", and that it was not proper or even remotely "normal" to "DESTROY YOUR DATA AND YOUR PROGRAMS" willy nilly simply because your came up with a new OS (Operating system).

                      The "Windows Registry" was a total and complete step away from that: Instead of MSFT honoring

                      YOUR DATA and YOUR PROGRAMS, it instead took the simple liberty to destroy them whenever and wherever possible. I hate them for that, and I still hate them for that. I consider MSFT still to be as

                      honorable as a "used car dealer repair shop" that "destroys and switches out perfectly good parts"

                      all in order to sell you new stuff for no good reason. May they roast in hell for that, except Satan Nutella doesn't believe in hell, or customer service or anything else.

                      Consider, if you will, an alternative to the "Windows Registry" approach: Every program existing currently on your computer could be "polled, analyzed, and made standardized" so that the Windows

                      Registry COULD EFFING REBUILD ITSELF, WITHOUT A SINGLE PROGRAM HAVING TO BE

                      REINSTALLED due to a change in the OS. That would be be possible by using transparent standards. INSTEAD, MSFT is effing with every computer, every user, and every program. Do you see? Can you think? Can you think this through? Consider the hours, days, nights and weeks of re-installing stuff, simply because MSFT acts like the elephantine gorilla in the china store! There is a difference between being a careful and considerate servant and a gorilla. I am sorry if I accidentally insult gorillas. MSFT is worse than gorillas, more like ISIS or DAESH or something creepy like that. Destructive is the word.

                      So let me ask you again: What is the "object" of "object oriented programming"? To me it is sheer and

                      utter mean-spirited and unnecessary obfuscation, without any good explanation available anywhere.

                      If you ask MSFT any questions, you are considered an ignorant customer, not worthy of attention.

                      Anyone who tells me different is a paid lackey of MSFT. Essentially, MSFT destroyed "personal computing" as much as possible, preventing people from fixing their own, making their own, deciding what goes on their own computers. I hate them for this.

                      Currently I use Windows 7. I got 2 more years. Because it's cheap, and I could not get clear info on whether my programs would work on Linux. Linux people don't want to talk about that, or else they might appear too helpful. Meanwhile, Win 8 and Win 10 is useless, unless you are a mindless gamer and/or facebook/smart-phone consumer. ("Me big indian chief, and me say: Smart-phone make people stupid!" So what if it comes across as dumb, racist and ignorant, because kernel of truth is paramount.)

                      I may have to go to Linux, but it is too late, because MSFT has their tentacles already around them. With MSFT, partnership means one thing: "sneaky, slowly embracing overbearing control, until you give up." The people inventing and supporting Linux are blind, because they don't see what's happening there. They are also ignorant, because they did not see that a simple

                      measure of basic paid marketing and support would have helped Linux greatly to become a workable alternative. Instead, they kept Linux their own little secret, that way preventing it from becoming clear, obvious and commonplace. Ask any Linux genius a question, and you can see how "annoyed they are that anyone would admit to not knowing as much as they", and thus their and Linux's independence will end because they are "too smart to be kind". They do not understand the difference between "being uninformed" and "being a complete idiot". If you refuse to properly inform your potential customers, that does not make them idiots. You'd think people could see that. But they don't.

                      To end this post properly, here is something timeless

                      from "The Who" - "My Generation"

                      People try to put us d-down (Talkin' 'bout my generation)

                      Just because we get around (Talkin' 'bout my generation)

                      Things they do look awful c-c-cold (Talkin' 'bout my generation)

                      I hope I die before I get old (Talkin' 'bout my generation)

                      This is my generation

                      This is my generation, baby

                      Why don't you all f-fade away (Talkin' 'bout my generation)

                      Don't try to dig what we all s-s-s-say (Talkin' 'bout my generation)

                      I'm not trying to 'cause a big s-s-sensation (Talkin' 'bout my generation)

                      I'm just talkin' 'bout my g-g-g-generation (Talkin' 'bout my generation)

                      1. h4rm0ny

                        Re: Mensa

                        >>With regard to Windows PowerShell: I must be very, very dumb, because I don't understand it. Or else Windows & MSFT did not ever explain it properly.

                        What do you mean they didn't explain it properly? They are obviously not going to come around to your house and sit down with diagrams. There are a number of good books and sites on Powershell. Which have you read / frequented? MS provided a lot of resources for those who are interested.

                        >>I do not know what "very standard object orientated interface and scripting approaches" actually means.

                        It means they are consistent from tool to tool. So if you want to turn an array of objects to a CSV table (attributes become columns), then you can use ConvertTo-CSV. If you want to convert the array to HTML, you can use ConvertTo-HTML and if you want to convert it to JSON objects you can use ConvertTo-JSON. And that's a trivial example, it goes beyond that into consistency of parameters and usage across a very wide range of tools. So you will see common and consistent parameters across like tools such as -DisplayError. That's what is meant by standardised interface. It means the elements you learn once you can reliably use again elsewhere. Ditto for language syntax.

                        >>I do remember what I could figure out all by myself: DOS 3 up to DOS 6.22, when the "help system" actually did help

                        DOS is hardly comparable to Powershell which has features including Exception handling, fan-out remoting and more. Also, DOS never had hover over descriptions of what every command did along with a list of acceptable parameters and their types, iirc.

                        >>So let me ask you again: What is the "object" of "object oriented programming"? To me it is sheer and utter mean-spirited and unnecessary obfuscation, without any good explanation available anywhere.

                        Object orientation allows for more flexibility and simplicity. Nearly every part of the Windows OS is exposed as an object. Therefore nearly every part of it can be managed from Powershell scripts. The modularity afforded by object orientation allows easy combining of distinct tools and adherence to the UNIX principle of 'do one thing and do it well'. For example, if I want to output a list of files and their attributes, I can take the output of ls which is an array of file and directory objects and pipe it to a tool such as ConvertTo-CSV and the latter tool will work fine because it simply uses the attributes of the passed in objects. Later, I might want to output a list of security settings and I can pipe it to the same tool (ConvertTo-CSV) and it will all just work because it's arriving as an array of objects just as before. The receiving tool doesn't need to know how to parse a list of file paths. It doesn't need to know anything about security settings. It simply accepts and works with an array of objects whatever they may be. No text mangling, no special coding. All just OO niceness.

                        >>Anyone who tells me different is a paid lackey of MSFT. Essentially, MSFT destroyed "personal computing" as much as possible, preventing people from fixing their own, making their own, deciding what goes on their own computers. I hate them for this.

                        Yeah, no. I built my own computer, I'm comfortable working around in it. I honestly don't think, based on your post, that you've taken the time to really learn how Windows works.

                3. kryptylomese

                  Re: Mensa

                  Ain't no Windows in the TOP 500 list its all *nix. Windows is not run on any of the best computers because it is inferior by design compared with BASH and unix philosophy in general.

              3. Jonathan 27 Bronze badge

                Re: Mensa

                The vast majority of MCSE's I've met are totally brainless clods. I'm not sure if it's because the testing is so easy to game or if the training is just worthless but I don't really consider MCSE an asset when reviewing resumes, in fact I deduct points for it.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Mensa

                  "The vast majority of MCSE's I've met are totally brainless clods."

                  The exams are pretty hard to game these days - lots of randomly switched selections, etc.

                  MCSE is a fairly involved qualification with a fair number of exams that requires a reasonable degree of knowledge so I would think it more likely they just put it on their CV without actually having it....

                2. circusmole
                  Unhappy

                  Re: Mensa

                  Sob, sob :-( I am (was?) an MCSE but that doesn't mean that I'm not a nice person.

                3. h4rm0ny

                  Re: Mensa

                  >>"but I don't really consider MCSE an asset when reviewing resumes, in fact I deduct points for it"

                  You can value the knowledge or not, consider the qualification an asset or not. But to actually count it against someone just shows you to be a snob. Someone put in time and effort and money to try and improve their career and you consider that a minus! Not smart.

                4. FuzzyWuzzys Silver badge
                  Facepalm

                  Re: Mensa

                  "The vast majority of MCSE's I've met are totally brainless clods."

                  That's because you only need to take a look around some of the certification forums to see that half the people gaining certs in MS, Oracle, CISCO, etc are simply performing verbatim regurgitation of test questions you can buy or simply rip off torrent sites.

                  I'd been working as an Oracle DBA for 10 years when I thought I might take my Oracle 10g certs for a laugh. I diligently studied the official cert guides, then I thought I'd find some test questions just to make sure I was ready for test day. Well let's just say that 98% of the test questions I got hold of were word-for-word identical to the actual test questions. I completed my Oracle 10g OCP exam, 80 questions in 9 minutes!! I didn't even read half the questions properly as I knew them off by heart. I'd wasted a month reading the cert guide ( plus £30 for the book! ) when I didn't need to. While I was looking for test questions I checked into a few forums and it was simply full of people just learning the test questions then taking the official tests.

                  Certs are a waste of time and nothing more than money spinners for the software vendors, Oracle make you take a single official course at £2500 before you can take a pro cert test. I assume MS et al are much the same. The second I'd finished my cert exams I felt cheated, I knew that anyone else who had taken those sort of multiple choice tests by groups like Pearson can't be trusted. While I had them on my CV as they ensured you get your foot in the door, I knew they're worthless as anybody with a good memory for Q&As can pass multiple choice cert exams.

                  1. TheVogon Silver badge

                    Re: Mensa

                    "That's because you only need to take a look around some of the certification forums to see that half the people gaining certs in MS, Oracle, CISCO, etc are simply performing verbatim regurgitation of test questions you can buy or simply rip off torrent sites."

                    The Microsoft exams at least were heavily redesigned about 5 years ago to stop that. The questions, scenarios, parameters and answers are now randomly selected and shuffled, meaning that you can no longer just learn a list of correct answers because the actual questions themselves are dynamic in content.

            2. Robert Helpmann?? Silver badge
              Childcatcher

              Re: Mensa

              "But at least it have me bragging rights with my brother - I beat him.."

              Clearly they didn't teach you English.

              Looks to be more a question of typing and proof reading ability than one of grammar... but a good beating is its own reward.

          2. Horridbloke
            Pint

            You joined?

            Did you ever get to go down the pub with Carol Vorderman?

            (Back in the nineties MENSA used to hint at this.)

        4. Snorlax
          Trollface

          @Anonymous Coward: "2% is the same percentage of the population that qualify for MENSA."

          What did I just say about you guys having an inflated sense of self-worth?

          I don't think Mensa will be banging down the doors of any linux users on here

        5. TheVogon Silver badge

          "2% is the same percentage of the population that qualify for MENSA."

          Correlation != Causation.

          See graph here for a good example: https://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter

          1. HelpfulJohn

            Since 1912, the global number of people with various cancers has increased.

            Since 1912, the number of television aerials has increased.

            Therefore, cancer causes TV aerials.

            .

            .

            Yes, I know the numbers of latter has *decreased* in some places in the 21st Century but so have some cancers.

            1. quxinot

              https://xkcd.com/925/

              https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/autism-and-vaccines

              There's other examples. I laugh each and every time. :)

      3. keithpeter
        Trollface

        Just think the unthinkable for a bit...

        Suppose you had a proprietary operating system that was decades old and which has accumulated a fair degree of technical debt. You are finding it hard to recruit programmers and onboard them in the arcane knowledge of millions of lines of code and obscure work-arounds for problems that existed in the 90s. Part of the reason for these difficulties is the availability of a robust free/open source operating system (in fact several) that students in Universities often learn in some detail in their systems and hardware courses, *and* that many of your potential recruits have worked on extended projects deep in the grungy legacy bowels of these systems, because they can get access to the code.

        Times are hard: the market is saturating, and the free/open source OSes are well entrenched in the server market and on some classes of consumer devices. All you have left is the network effect of organisations that depend on your proprietary *middleware* and very successful end user productivity software. Increasingly, you want to move maintenance and routine systems work to low cost countries in preparation to the ultimate automation of the basics.

        Would you not be tempted to eliminate the maintenance cost of the underlying OS by ensuring that the middleware and productivity software could run on a 'good-enough' endpoint/client OS based on the free/open source alternatives?

        Would a way of exploring this radical move be to coopt free/open source OSes into your cloud offerings and in your software distribution channels so that users become more familiar with the endpoint/client interfaces, and so that your programmers and systems people become familiar with the new metaphors?

        Might be one to watch over the next decade. Canonical is after investment as evidenced by their recent streamlining. Mr Nadella was a UNIX kind of chap was he not?

    2. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

      How else would they be able to slurp Linux users?

      Indeed. One wonders if it's a special (no - not as in the bus) build of Ubuntu with extra built-in spying..

      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        " One wonders if it's a special (no - not as in the bus) build of Ubuntu with extra built-in spying.."

        Well since it is just the Linux user-space running on top of the Windows kernel, I imagine there is very little need to build in *extra* spying.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      In other news...

      Calsberg takes over independent Hackney-based Craft Beer London Fields Brewery.

      If you can't beat them, you can buy them.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Cool, so we can now easily run our legacy shell scripts and similar old tools from the comfort of a Windows desktop.

  2. m0rt Silver badge

    What next? Oracle offering up licence fees based on location only? Office 365 actually being available for 365 days a year? I feel anything is now possible.

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Regarding your latter point, that'll be leap yes only...

      1. bazza Silver badge

        Whoops! Typo

        Yes^hars.

        Thank you for your forbearance.

  3. wolfetone Silver badge
    Linux

    We've won.

    1. Aladdin Sane Silver badge

      But will Redmond develop Unity?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        >But will Redmond develop Unity?

        Perhaps Microsoft should focus on getting their own products in order first. The new Skype is interface will be coming to Windows, it suits their fanboys technical abilities

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Embrace, extend, extinguish.

      1. wolfetone Silver badge
        Linux

        "Embrace, extend, extinguish."

        If you can't beat them, join them.

        1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          "Embrace, extend, extinguish."

          If you can't beat them, join them.

          Well - they've already managed to get Windows-lite[1] into Redhat and all it's little penguins..

          [1] Systemd.

          1. wolfetone Silver badge

            "Well - they've already managed to get Windows-lite[1] into Redhat and all it's little penguins..

            [1] Systemd."

            Quite right. That is a problem, and it's being addressed within the community.

            Systemd is to Linux what athletes foot is to humans. An irritant, but it can be killed off.

  4. Greg D

    what?

    Is... is this still Earth? And we're in 2017? The sky is still blue etc?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: what?

      > The sky is still blue?

      Blue with white text.

      1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

        Re: what?

        > The sky is still blue?

        Blue with white text.

        Not here - grey with grey text and grey dropshadows.

        With a hint of rainy grey around the edges.

        1. Avatar of They Silver badge

          Re: what?

          Vista?

      2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
        Happy

        Re: what?

        > The sky is still blue?

        Blue with white text.

        Yup. And it reads:

        Your planet has performed an illegal operation and needs to reboot.

        Error Code: 6x9=42

        Share and enjoy!

        1. Been there, done that, it never ends

          Re: what?

          Yup. And it reads:

          Your planet has performed an illegal operation and needs to reboot.

          Error Code: 6x9=42

          --------------------------------------------

          Why are you using base 13?

  5. Christopher Reeve's Horse
    Windows

    But...

    Please forgive my ignorance, but downloading another OS via the windows store! What kind of sorcery is this?

    Does it install alongside windows as a dual boot (risking Grub destroying your RAID arrays; this happened to me last time I tried to set up a dual boot!) or does it run virtualised inside Windows?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: But...

      This is the new fangled Windows Subsystem for Linux. It allows linux binaries to natively call their expected APIs under a windows OS, through a very lightweight translation layer. "Installing ubuntu" in this context really means installing Ubuntu's userland features (including apt-get etc.) for use within Windows.

      https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/wsl/2016/04/22/windows-subsystem-for-linux-overview/

      1. Mage Silver badge

        Re: new fangled Windows Subsystem for Linux

        Essentially 21st C version of the old MS Services For Unix, slightly updated.

        if you want to dual boot, or run Ubuntu in a VM on Windows (the reverse is better), then get Ubuntu or any other Linux distro (or BSD etc) in the normal way.

        Windows Store is like a copy of Nokia's pointless store for Symbian (which resulted in REDUCED functionality -- widgets killed -- and making it harder to download S60 apps from random websites. iTunes only worked because it existed before iOS and there wasn't a pre iTunes method. Practically the same exists for Android). Windows Store is a broken concept for x86 Desktop PCs. The phone and ARM Tablet MS OS should NEVER have been called Windows (It was Windows CE originally). MS attempt to take control of distribution sucks.

        Their new EVERYTHING is 365 will piss people off too.

        Absolute morons.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: new fangled Windows Subsystem for Linux

          Mage, you've been reading too many of Bob's posts.

          1. Anonymous C0ward

            Re: new fangled Windows Subsystem for Linux

            Is there an actual Linux kernel running? If so it would be more like coLinux or UML than Wine.

        2. bazza Silver badge

          Re: new fangled Windows Subsystem for Linux

          Essentially 21st C version of the old MS Services For Unix, slightly updated.

          It's not even remotely close to being that.

          if you want to dual boot, or run Ubuntu in a VM on Windows (the reverse is better), then get Ubuntu or any other Linux distro (or BSD etc) in the normal way.

          Why bother? If an Ubuntu user land installation cannot tell the difference, why both dual booting or going the whole VM route?

        3. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: new fangled Windows Subsystem for Linux

          I don't think Nokia's Store ever prevented you from installing your own stuff from elsewhere. They were very aware that a lot of people wanted that.

          1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

            Nokia's Store and non-Store apps (Was Re: new fangled Windows Subsystem for Linux)

            Nokia's app store was never exclusive. Symbian still allowed you to install anything you wanted, from anywhere you wanted. All you got was a warning dialog saying "This isn't from a verified publisher. Do you still want to install it?"

            This made it very easy to send beta-test or distribute review copies of paid apps - just email your .sis file to the relevant people, and have them install it directly by tapping the file attachment in their email.

            Back on topic, the reason MS has put this into Windows Store is the same reason that their other built-in apps are kept in the Windows Store: it puts all the non-OS parts under the same distribution and update infrastructure.

            The product is called "Ubuntu on Windows" (although the technology that allows it is called the "Windows Subsystem for Linux"). Canonical are 100% involved in this, which is why the "Ubuntu" name can be used. The confusion is that people use "Linux" to describe the kernel as well as the kernel plus various GNU-based userspace tools that make a usable system, of which Ubuntu is one.

            For "Ubuntu on Windows", WSL plus NT is the "kernel", Ubuntu's set of tools is the userspace.

            And the reason that WINE emulates win32.dll rather than the "Windows Kernel" (a misnomer - the current kernel is called "NT"; "Windows 10" is the name of the current userspace) is that there wasn't just one "kernel" when WINE started: win32.dll is the abstraction layer that gave Windows NT and Windows 3.1/9x the same APIs, so that's the correct layer to intercept.

      2. msknight Silver badge
        Black Helicopters

        Re: But...

        Personally, I feel safer running windows inside Linux than the other way around... but that's just me.

      3. nematoad Silver badge

        Re: But...

        "It allows linux binaries to natively call their expected APIs under a windows OS, "

        Oh, sort of Wine in reverse then?

        1. Chemical Bob
          Windows

          Re: Oh, sort of Wine in reverse then?

          Backwards. Backwards is much more appropriate to all things Microsoft.

        2. itzman

          Re: But...

          Slime

          Some Linux in Microsoft's Emulator

        3. bazza Silver badge

          Re: But...

          Oh, sort of Wine in reverse then?

          Not really. WINE emulates win32.dll, and other high level dlls. These are exclusively used by Windows binaries to access kernel services. The reverse of WINE would be sort of like a reimplemented glibc.so for Windows.

          This is a Linux kernel system call shim for Windows. So a real Linux binary calls a function in the real glibc, which in turn makes Linux kernel calls just as if it were really running on Linux. And the shim translates that into the equivalent windows kernel call(s).

          Reasons

          The reason why Wine does what it does is because the Windows kernel system call interface has never been published. So they had to emulate the next layer up (win32.dll).

          Because the Windows kernel system call interface is not public, no one can do a windows kernel shim layer for Linux. Apart from Microsoft.

          Which is exactly what they're doing with their port of SQL Server to Linux. Instead of using Wine or doing an actual source code port, they're emulating the Windows kernel on Linux.

          Consequences

          Ultimately this kind of abstraction of kernels will mean that people will stop caring about which kernel they're running. In theory you could construct an OS that looks like Ubuntu, smells like Ubuntu, feels like Ubuntu, but just happens to have a Windows kernel and Windows drivers instead of the Linux kernel and it's lesser set of drivers.

          If MS were giving the kernel away for free so that the Linux Distro companies could do this if they wanted to, such frankenOSes could be quite useful. All the same freedoms as commonly enjoyed now (who ever really does their own kernel hacking? Not many...), but with rock solid driver support. The Linux kernel community might care for GPL2 and open source purity, but quite a lot of people just want an OS that works on their hardware for free.

      4. Uncle Slacky Silver badge
        Linux

        Re: But...

        "It allows linux binaries to natively call their expected APIs under a windows OS, through a very lightweight translation layer."

        So, like Wine in reverse? Eniw?

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: But...

        "Installing ubuntu" in this context really means installing Ubuntu's userland features (including apt-get etc.) for use within Windows.

        So it's not Ubuntu at all - in fact it's not even Linux, if you're not running a Linux kernel. Shouldn't Canonical object to this misuse of their trademark?

        If it crashes, it's Windows' fault, not Linux.

        1. oiseau Silver badge
          WTF?

          Re: But...

          "Shouldn't Canonical object to this misuse of their trademark?"

          Yes.

          But they won't.

          Sometimes I wake up in a cold sweat with the idea that, with a few exceptions, Linux land has come to engage in some sort of Borg type 'partnership' with MS.

          Fortunately, there's Devuan.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: But...

          "So it's not Ubuntu at all - in fact it's not even Linux, if you're not running a Linux kernel. Shouldn't Canonical object to this misuse of their trademark?"

          Correct, it's not running a Linux kernel but it is presenting most of a Linux API. Whether that constitutes infringement of the Linux name is a fair argument. As to whether it's infringement on the name "Ubuntu" - it ain't; Canonical are maintaining the "image" that's installed.

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge

            Re: But...

            Correct, it's not running a Linux kernel but it is presenting most of a Linux API. Whether that constitutes infringement of the Linux name is a fair argument.

            If it's Oracle vs Google, yes...

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: But...

            "Correct, it's not running a Linux kernel but it is presenting most of a Linux API."

            So Linux with a modern hybrid microkernel! I guess the shimming looses the performance advantages of Windows though :-(

        3. bazza Silver badge

          Re: But...

          Shouldn't Canonical object to this misuse of their trademark?

          Apparently they gave it their blessing. But as their stuff is open source and freely available, fork-able, etc there is nothing they could do to stop it anyway. Bit like CentOS vs RedHat.

      6. This post has been deleted by its author

      7. bazza Silver badge

        Re: But...

        This is the new fangled Windows Subsystem for Linux. It allows linux binaries to natively call their expected APIs under a windows OS, through a very lightweight translation layer.

        To add to that excellent post, it's basically the same trick that Solaris, FreeBSD and QNX also do to support Linux binaries.

        It works so long as the Linux binary is compiled for the same CPU that the OS is running on. So Solaris x86 can support Linux binaries so long as they were also compiled for x86. QNX can do it on ARMs.

  6. Mage Silver badge

    Faster by using Windows download?

    Ha!

    I have found MS downloads very slow compared to the Linux distro mirrors.

    I found that trying to install ANYTHING from Windows Store breaks the Store App -- and all other "metro/modern" apps on Win 10. Attempting to repair Store app: This app can't be repaired please download an updated version from Windows Store.

    Sorry MS, but you are now rubbish. I prefer to install Wine, Mono, MS Fonts etc from LINUX distros on Linux for the legacy Windows Applications I still use.

    Win 10 is a bad copy of Android now. At least with Vista you could customise it! ME was better than Win10 and Windows Store.

    1. Mark 110 Silver badge

      Re: Faster by using Windows download?

      @Mage - So just use a normal install. I agree the Windows store is a bit rubbish . . . . but as I have only ever used it to see what it did then decided it was an unnecessary obstacle its not an irritant.

      Unlike the whole Linux equivalent which has caused me no end of pain.

    2. TheVogon Silver badge

      Re: Faster by using Windows download?

      "I found that trying to install ANYTHING from Windows Store breaks the Store App -- and all other "metro/modern" apps on Win 10. Attempting to repair Store app: This app can't be repaired please download an updated version from Windows Store."

      That's not normal behaviour obviously.

      Firstly, make sure your time & date are set correctly and check that all pending Windows updates are installed. Then try opening an elevated command prompt and running WSRESET

      If that doesn't help you can reinstall the Store and other preinstalled apps via Powershell - Instructions here: www.intowindows.com/how-to-reinstall-store-and-other-preinstalled-apps-in-windows-10

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Faster by using Windows download?

      "I have found MS downloads very slow compared to the Linux distro mirrors."

      I just installed the base Ubunto package onto Windows 10 (just under 200MB) and got well over 100mbit / second in the UK. I don't know what you get from the Linux distro mirrors, but the Windows Store seems pretty speedy here.

  7. deadlockvictim Silver badge

    SQL Server for Linux on Linux on Windows

    This will finally let me install the version of SQL Server that is within a container run on an OS within a container within Windows.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: SQL Server for Linux on Linux on Windows

      Obligatory XKCD

      1. Martijn Otto

        Re: SQL Server for Linux on Linux on Windows

        Obligatory turnoff

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fast Startup, corrupt NTFS.

    Have Microsoft have finally turned off Fast Startup, if you install Ubuntu? One of the problems with Microsoft Windows 10's hibernated fast startup mode, is the NTFS File System is unreadable by another OS (where you dual boot etc) while it's in this frozen state, it's effectively marked as 'dirty'.

    Also, if you setup a hard disk in a GPT+Hybrid MBR Mode (using Apple's HFS to initially layout the disk, with 128MB blanks between partitions, then Ubuntu's Gdisk to add Hybrid), you still can't see partitions past the first 3, EFI+1,2,3 in Windows 10.

    In this situation though, Ubuntu (and Macs to some extent using Paragon's UFSD) can see and read everything, NTFS, HFS+, EXT3/4, other GPT Partitions, past those in the first 4.

    Microsoft really needs to start supporting GPT+Hybrid MBR disk layouts properly i.e by incorporating and licencing Paragon UFSD.

    It's make Windows look so clunky regards it's objections to reading different disk formats/disk structures.

    1. Mage Silver badge

      Re: Fast Startup, corrupt NTFS.

      Disable prefetch and fast startup if you can. Both evil, especially for SSD, Flash, SD cards etc, any system not using single OS and spinning disk. Even then your OS may be better without them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fast Startup, corrupt NTFS.

        Yep, I always I do (first thing I do on any new install) because it's one less variable to deal with when working with multiple OS's. I just wondered if Microsoft had thought this through enough to actually do the same, i.e. switch off their own conflicting crud. I'm guessing not.

        It's doesn't help that MS make it as difficult as possible to run Windows 10, Windows 7 side by side physically, in terms of the Microsoft Bootloader, and the limit on physical MBR partitions.

        An example of this is where Windows 7 can see a Windows 10 partition as drive D. If Windows 7 forces a check disk on the visible Win10 NTFS partition, it will corrupt the Win10 system partition but the other way round it's fine, i.e Windows 10 checking the structure of Win7 System disk.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fast Startup, corrupt NTFS.

        "Disable prefetch and fast startup if you can. Both evil, especially for SSD, Flash, SD cards etc, "

        Don't disable them for that reason. Windows 10 knows if to use them or not depending on the storage performance.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Fast Startup, corrupt NTFS.

      "Have Microsoft have finally turned off Fast Startup, if you install Ubuntu? One of the problems with Microsoft Windows 10's hibernated fast startup mode, is the NTFS File System is unreadable by another OS"

      This isn't a regular install of Ubuntu. This is the Ubuntu userland running under Windows with, as per other comments, a sort of Wine in reverse intercepting system calls and using Windows instead of the Linux kernel perform them. So Windows wouldn't be hibernating whilst running Ubuntu in this way.

    3. Anonymous C0ward

      Re: Fast Startup, corrupt NTFS.

      Why would you use hybrid any more, even on a Mac? Both OSes natively support GPT. Boot Camp on the latest Mac OS doesn't go lower than Windows 10.

    4. Ramazan

      Re: while it's in this frozen state, it's effectively marked as 'dirty'.

      You know, if you mount frozen ext2/3/4, you'd screw it. That's why you MUST NOT mount / from initrd scripts when doing resume-from-hibernate.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This may be a silly question but are there actually any Linux users using Windows 10?

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "are there actually any Linux users using Windows 10?"

      And are there any using Linux under Windows 10?

    2. toxicdragon

      Sort of, but not by choice, my own work machine has linux on it but just about everything else in the building runs about every version of windows running, the admin staff run 10 and its down to me to fix it.

    3. Baldrickk Silver badge

      Yes, but purely for gaming here.

  10. handleoclast Silver badge
    Coat

    Wine in reverse

    Going from biblical authority, wine in reverse would be water.

    And for my next miracle...

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I wonder how does this stand from licensing point of view.

    In order to download Ubuntu installation disk, all I have to do is go to their website and start downloading it. In order to get it from Windows store, you are forced first to install Windows 10, create a Microsoft account and login to get to the app store (Google does the same with their app store and Apple doesn't even accept FOS software at all). Then you can't modify it and run your new modifications like you are free to do it with the real Linux and no, you can't pass a copy to your friends.

    This is definitely not what Linux used to be, it's only a pale shadow of it and if this is the future then I'm not going any further.

    1. oiseau Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: I wonder how does this stand from licensing point of view.

      "This is definitely not what Linux used to be ... "

      No ...

      It is Ubuntu in bed with MS.

      Can't help but to wonder what strange systemd centric things that will bring forth.

  12. Ramazan
    Holmes

    Looks like only systemd-tainted distros get Microsoft approval

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Looks like only systemd-tainted distros get Microsoft approval!"

      Finally Linux has a proper config database system? Well sort of. For some of the boot up settings. Ooops - no - my bad - it still relies on underlying text files.... How 1970s...

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If I had windows 10 I'd be tempted to go full Inception with this bad boy.

    Linux on windows with a VM running windows with another Linux and wine running a windows app or maybe SQL server in Linux on Windows.

    Someone needs to do this just for fun.

    1. handleoclast Silver badge

      Re: full Inception

      Randall got there before you with the XKCD development environment.

      More amusing would be to run a Linux host on a Windows host and then somehow move the original Windows into a VM on the Linux host. My guess is the universe would implode.

  14. TVU Silver badge

    "What fell sorcery is this?"

    This magical event is effectively Microsoft finally accepting that they cannot defeat Linux (they tried that in collaboration with the SCO Group and it didn't end well) and so they are going to have to tolerate it and work with it. If they were still taking a hardline attitude then Azure would certainly lose a lot of business and they literally cannot afford to be dogmatic on this issue any more.

    1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

      It IS a disgusied EEE gambit @TVU

      Bollocks is it them accepting that they cannot beat Linux. It's Microsoft trying to stop people having dual boot systems that run Linux most of the time, with a Windows system left on it "just in case". This is another EEE strategy. It goes like this:

      "Hey Linux user, you no longer have to divide up your system and dual boot it to allow you to use Linux and Windows. Just run your Linux processes on Windows. No need to partition your disk any more!"

      This means that at some point in the future, when the user decides that Windows becomes too onerous Linux is actually what they want, it is a much harder task to run only Linux, and Microsoft get to count people using a Linux environment as a windows install. And once it's an accepted way of doing things, why run a Linux Kernel at all?

      They already tried it some years back with GPT, where installing Windows after Linux could convert the boot record into GPT, destroying the ability to boot Linux. They also tried to suggest that Mobo manufacturers should put secure boot on all the time with only Microsoft certificates enrolled, although this was seen for what it was, and avoided.

      I predict that consumer level Windows is going to suddenly get more difficult to run in a VM (it's already largely disallowed by license), to try to avoid people using Windows on Linux, making the Linux on Windows option more attractive to novice Linux users.

  15. CrustyDanBear

    Missing the point

    I spoke to a Microsoft bod at Cloud Foundry Summit a few weeks back; he told me that this Linux on Win10 is just to provide useful Linux tools for techies to make Win10 a more potent tool compared to macOS. I had also been to OpenStack Summit earlier this year, and I'd say that 85% of laptops were MacBook Pros at these open source gatherings. I'm sure Microsoft would prefer them all to be Win10 machines.

    I was also surprised to hear that 1/3 of their Azure estate is running bare metal Linux, and they have a complete solution based on Cloud Foundry. He did a CF on Azure demo on his MacBook Pro, for a laugh, he did a CF Push from an app on his iPhone.

    Microsoft isn't the same company it was under Balmer and Gates.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Missing the point

      "I was also surprised to hear that 1/3 of their Azure estate is running bare metal Linux"

      Not quite, About 30% is running Linux under Hyper-V. Not bare metal.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why would you want to use the Windows Store?

    You would require a Microsoft account. Why not just download Ubuntu from the official Ubuntu website or one of the many mirror sites? Why do you need to go through a third party, especially through a scummy company's app store?

    And 'Insiders': are you happy to be unpaid useful idiots for SatNad's beta testing of shoddy code? I guess some people are so masochist they truly enjoy the 'latest and greatest' from Redmond.

  17. Jason Hindle

    So is this virtualised Ubuntu?

    Or is it booting up from its own partition?

    1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

      Re: So is this virtualised Ubuntu?

      Neither. It's a little more like Cygwin, although you don't have to recompile any of the applications.

      The Linux processes run scheduled and controlled by Windows with a translation layer to provide the kernel API to the processes.

      It would be interesting to see how things like IPC, signals and process control work. And also some of the syscalls to do things like reading kernel structures (which won't exist) and also how things like KMS, Dbus, /proc and /sys, which are so important in modern Linux applications, are implemented.

      I suppose this could be a reason why systemd is trying to take all these things in, so it is only necessary to subvert systemd to intercept many things. Is Lennart being paid by MS as well as RedHat.

  18. eJ2095

    Wait for it....

    Going to be Lindows next (Yes i know it existed ages ago and microsft moaned about it)

    But this will be the new and improved microsoft approved version........ God help us all

  19. trog-oz
    FAIL

    There are only three comments about it on the M$ store

    The first basically says "good", the second "could be better" and the third, the most telling "won't install". Also interestingly, on the PC supplied to me at work, W10 x64, the store tells me "This app does not work on your device."

    1. Snorlax

      Re: There are only three comments about it on the M$ store

      @trog-oz: The first basically says "good", the second "could be better" and the third, the most telling "won't install".

      So for you, the most telling review is from the person who hasn't actually installed it? Can you explain the logic in that?

      Also interestingly, on the PC supplied to me at work, W10 x64, the store tells me "This app does not work on your device."

      Not so interesting if you actually read the system requirements on the App Store:

      System Requirements

      Minimum

      OS Windows 10 version 16190.0 or higher required

      Architecture x64

      You are running 16190.0, enrolled in the Windows Insider program and signed into your Microsoft account, aren't you?

  20. Halfmad

    I know I'll be down voted for this

    But at least it gives more exposure to Linux. I know two of my friends kids will be all over this as it gives them a way to tinker with Linux more readily without annoying their windows obsessed dads until they get their own PCs. Both currently use live linux CDs to mess about.

  21. 4d3fect
    Coat

    No "year of the Linux desktop" jokes?

    --I am disappoint.

  22. conscience
    Thumb Down

    Ubuntu on Windows 10 is one to avoid

    I find the whole idea of Linux-on-Windows 10 truly odd by Microsoft. It can only be another of their traditional Embrace, Extend, Extinguish missions they wheel out to destroy any threat they perceive to their continued dominance. If MS really wanted parity for Windows applications and tools, rather than to destroy Linux, then why wouldn't they just write some of these software applications and tools that they say are currently missing from the Windows world instead of integrating/emulating a rival OS?

    MS must have watched Android overtake Windows as most used OS for using the internet with dread, fearing it could/would turn their primary monopoly into an irrelevance. Linux certainly is a threat to Microsoft right now, what with Linux being streets ahead of their flagship Windows 10 OS. A fellow commentard hit the nail on the head when they suggested that Windows 10 was a pale imitation of Android rather than the full-fat OS it used to be, which besides there's more fragmentation and more adverts on Windows 10, is exactly what Windows appears to be these days.

    Android uses the Linux kernel so MS can't currently slurp user data or establish any customer lock-in using it, so I can't help wondering if MS see Linux and emulating the Linux kernel as a way for them to one day finally infiltrate the mobile OS world with their bastardised hybrid proprietary/open source Linux-on-Windows 10 perhaps positioned as a drop-in replacement for Android with its Linux kernel? Obviously it is an insane thought, but MS aren't known for sensible ideas and all their other mobile efforts have failed spectacularly.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    One last step

    When they delete Windows, it will be a day to celebrate.

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