back to article Microsoft admits to disabling third-party antivirus code if Win 10 doesn't like it

Windows 10 does disable some third-party security software, Microsoft has admitted, but because of compatibility – not competitive – issues. Redmond is currently being investigated in the EU, Germany and Russia over alleged anti-competitive behavior because it bundles the Windows Defender security suite into its latest …

  1. inmypjs Silver badge

    "locked Internet Explorer into the operating system to make up the lost ground..

    – a decision which cost the company dearly in the long run"

    But not nearly as much as the incestuous mess cost the rest of the world.

    Microsoft had/has the turnover of a small country and what I pile of shit the world of computing has got to show for it.

    34 years of development and Windows 10 is the result - fuck me I want to cry.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

      Its worse... Linux is ready for primetime: No nagging, slurping, spying, forced-updates etc. But since MS still controls the distribution system, few shops / stores of the world offer Linux. And the big manufacturers are locked into long-term contracts with MS, so that's not going to change. What now? I buy less tech overall from all retailers. F*ck em, they've killed off choice!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

        I use Win10, Win7, Linux Mint 18.1, and macOS, at different times in the day/week. I was reading this then looked down and realised I was in Linux Mint. If I'm in a browser like Firefox/Chrome, I genuinely have to glance down at the taskbar to (remember) which OS I'm using, because it's not obvious if your focus is within the web content itself.

        Linux Mint is an excellent OS, and I'd say the one I have the least problems with / least amount of maintenance issues. Updates are quick and "just work", which means scaled up, it could easily help in places like the NHS, as a desktop client, if we can break the glass ceiling.

        The thing Linux is fighting, is very much the same problem Jeremy Corbyn had. The established, moneyed vested interests do everything in their power to discredit a viable alternative to this constant misery of Windows Updates/Windows 10 Nagware.

        Until the balance suddenly tips, and people actually see Linux for what it is, a decent OS.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          It is amazing that companies still use Windows, especially given the costs. Any large company is paying millions a year for Windows when they could use Linux or Chrome or both for free.

          1. Langalf

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            There are areas where you truly have no choice. Industrial control is a prime example. While there may be some alternative control systems and PLC platforms that do not require Windows, the big players all run Windows-based development, control and HMI programs.

            1. Charles 9 Silver badge

              Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

              And then you have the serious gamer set, for which consoles are a casual toy and no other OS compares to Windows for lineup and support, especially for headliners which would be the purview of professional gamers. Gamers (and especially professionals) won't jump to Linux unless someone is willing to back them up, and not even Valve's support is enough in this regard.

              1. hplasm Silver badge
                Childcatcher

                Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                "...no other OS compares to Windows ..." for being a toy.

                Poor kids- won't somebody think of them?

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                And then you have the serious gamer set...

                Screw them. They need to damn well grow up.

                1. IsJustabloke Silver badge
                  Thumb Down

                  Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                  "Screw them. They need to damn well grow up."

                  says the "linux rulz! wondoze sux!" fanboy....

              3. MJI Silver badge

                Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                Professional gamers is a very small subset of gamers. But Windows support will not disappear while Microsoft produce a console.

                As to Linux support, how similar is it to BSD which a variant of is well supported.

                1. Charles 9 Silver badge

                  Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                  "As to Linux support, how similar is it to BSD which a variant of is well supported."

                  Not very, particularly in the multimedia and graphics aspects which are key to gaming.

                  1. Kiwi Silver badge
                    Linux

                    Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                    Not very, particularly in the multimedia and graphics aspects which are key to gaming.

                    Pro-tip : Most people don't give a stuff about the gaming you constantly harp on about. Most want a simple way to access email, facebook, youtube and. Er. Well that's about it for most people, a few want to do some document handling stuff (also at a basic level). If your machine can play a 1080 youtube vid, it can handle everything else most people want.

                    And if you do it on Linux, you get a damned responsive, reliable machine, not something that needs an hour of startup time to finish "installing updates" that take longer to install than to download! (wtf's up with that?????)

                    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

                      Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                      "Pro-tip : Most people don't give a stuff about the gaming you constantly harp on about."

                      PRO-Pro-tip: PLENTY of people give A LOT of crap about gaming. Gamers are still trailblazers for PC tech; otherwise, we'd have plateaued years back. Steam, Battle.net, Origin, and so on numbers seem to indicate there are more people who care about gaming than you care to research. After all, what do you think professional gamers use (you know, those that do it for a living)? And no, we're not interested in consoles (you can't play WoW on a console).

              4. nkuk

                Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                "Gamers (and especially professionals) won't jump to Linux unless someone is willing to back them up, and not even Valve's support is enough in this regard."

                Thats not true, there is a very healthy and enthusiastic, if somewhat small, community of gamers that only use Linux. Virtually all the indie devs and an ever expanding list of larger developers are now supporting Linux. Over 50% of my 20 year old game library supports Linux and I have a wealth of choice for new games (including AAA), more than I could ever buy.

                Its only really EA and Ubisoft that don't yet support Linux and if you've played one of their games you've played them all. Even that is likely to change with Vulkan support being baked into the middleware, at that point it becomes a very low cost to support a Linux version, almost tick a checkbox, fix the outlying bugs and QA. Almost all the Vulkan games that have been released to date that run on PC work on Linux.

                1. Charles 9 Silver badge

                  Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                  What about Blizzard? They don't seem to be jumping up and down for Linux support, either, and they're the poster child for successful multiplayer gaming with WoW (which people PAY--per month--to play) and Overwatch (the new multiplayer fad that's now incorprated into professional gaming circuits--you know, the ones where real money gets involved).

                  Look, until the headliners (where the REAL money is made) make the jump (and you can throw in ZeniMax--Fallout 4 is NOT going to Linux unless subsidiary Bethesda are convinced/coerced into changing their minds), until you can get the professional gaming circuits to drop Windows (again, REAL money here), I still say gaming is not ready for prime time on Linux.

            2. MJI Silver badge

              Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

              As a programmer in a small software house. It comes down often to economics.

              We happily went along with MSDOS for years, but customers want Windows.

              So get staff skilled in it, rewrite the system, finally got there.

              We do not have the staff to rewrite again, but I feel like MS are trying to force us off Windows.

              Our software on the Windows OSes which matter (XP and 7) is rock stable, but often crashes on 10.

              What have MS changed to cause this?

              Up times in months down to uptimes in hours.

              WTF MS!

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                What have MS changed to cause this?

                Did you see the post previously about monopolies?

                They don't give a shit about you. Only your money.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                So get staff skilled in it, rewrite the system, finally got there.

                We do not have the staff to rewrite again, but I feel like MS are trying to force us off Windows.

                Our software on the Windows OSes which matter (XP and 7) is rock stable, but often crashes on 10.

                What have MS changed to cause this?

                It sounds like it's because you're running Windows 3.1 16-bit apps on an OS that doesn't like them.

                1. jelabarre59 Silver badge

                  Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                  It sounds like it's because you're running Windows 3.1 16-bit apps on an OS that doesn't like them.

                  I've thought MS could have saved themselves a lot of trouble by splitting off their older ABIs into a Wine-like runtime, then they could have moved them out of the core system. For that matter they could have *used* Wine back when the project split into the "Wine" and "ReWind" projects (the X11 license for ReWind would have been more to MS' liking). Of course ReWind fell by the wayside as less-desired forks usually do, so it wouldn't be much use to them now.

                  I suggested to Codeweavers a couple years back they should make a Wine-on-Windows product for those older applications MS breaks in newer MSWin versions.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

              I don't disagree. This is the argument that always comes up with Windows.... "but you're forgetting about niche use cases x, y, z that *require* Windows." I'm not forgetting about them. If you have industrial control systems that require Windows, then use Windows. I'm saying that a large portion of the users and use cases at every company could do away with Windows. Either they are already entirely web based or could be by virtualizing the few remaining desktop apps. Move those 80-90% of users to Linux (or Chrome if ease of use and management for web apps is the goal). It is exactly like the server side. There are some apps which require Windows Server. Ok, fine. Run Windows Server. The vast majority though should be on Linux.

          2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            The beancounters see huge reductions in CapEx by going to MS Cloud/Orifice 365.

            No more justification is needed.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

              "The beancounters see huge reductions in CapEx by going to MS Cloud/Orifice 365."

              Happily using Horble-Orifice 365 on LInux MINT in my work place, which means I get to play nicely with my Windows brethren but also get to run the O/S I prefer. Winner!

            2. bombastic bob Silver badge
              Devil

              Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

              "The beancounters see huge reductions in CapEx"

              yet, LibreOffice is _FREE_ - no 'CapEx' there.

          3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Unhappy

            "It is amazing that companies still use Windows,"

            No it's not if you study business, not IT.

            Gates went to Harvard to study Business, not IT.

            MS's "business" is making money by creating (and maintaining) a monopoly.

            TBH quite a lot of companies would like to have this model but few can achieve it.

            The first rule of (RL) monopoly is no one calls it a monopoly (while doing everything possible to ensure it remains one.).

            You've got to keep the magic money tree fed.

            1. P. Lee Silver badge

              MS's "business" is making money by creating (and maintaining) a monopoly.

              Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt

              They don't need complete lock-out, just enough FUD to sustain them.

            2. John Mangan
              Joke

              Re: "It is amazing that companies still use Windows,"

              "You've got to keep the magic money tree fed."

              But Amber Rudd said there isn't a magic money tree?

              1. Captain DaFt

                Re: "It is amazing that companies still use Windows,"

                "But Amber Rudd said there isn't a magic money tree?"

                If you had one, would you admit it?

              2. Kiwi Silver badge

                Re: "It is amazing that companies still use Windows,"

                "You've got to keep the magic money tree fed."

                But Amber Rudd said there isn't a magic money tree?

                That's ok, we've fixed that now. All you need is....

                #magicmoneytree

          4. Mine's a Large One
            Unhappy

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            Problem is, some companies have in-house software that has been written around things like Office and so changing the OS means re-writing those, as well as the myriad of other tools (Visio, Project, SharePoint, etc) for which alternatives would have to be found - although if "it has to be Microsoft" at least Office365 can help that side of things by and large.

            From my experience though, the biggest problem is that with things like Enterprise agreements and Office 365, it's all to easy for Microsoft to drop in new products - and then some people start quoting the mantra "because we've already got them why bother looking for anything else", notwithstanding the fact that cheaper (or free), better alternatives *are* out there.

            I'd love to see us move to alternatives wherever we can, but sadly it's virtually impossible to prise the decision-making from those who eat, drink and sleep M$ and evangelise about it to the business.

          5. Naselus

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            "Any large company is paying millions a year for Windows when they could use Linux or Chrome or both for free."

            No, any large company is paying millions for Windows SUPPORT when they could be using Linux or Chrome with no support at all, or else paying just as many millions to Red Hat Software to support and train users in an OS that is incompatible with all of their main business software and which would require any bespoke programs they've created in the last 20 years to be re-written from scratch at great expense.

            Which makes it a bit less of a mystery, doesn't it? Honestly, I like Linux as much as the next guy, but in the real world it is not going to replace Windows in the workplace. It's now dominant in the server room because it's well-suited to use there, and so it overtook Windows in a matter of just a few years. It's not well-suited in the desktop realm, which is why it's still a rounding error there despite a couple of decades of trying to push it.

            1. Esme

              Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

              @Naselus - do you not think though, that a lot of the problem with user support at work is that most companies don;t seem to want to train their users in IT at all, and just go for the 'learn which options to select and which buttons to click, that's all you need to know' route instead? Thus because the suits that make the decisions dojn't want to rock the boat stick with Windows for various reasons (some good, some not so good) yer average workplace user's only experience of retraining is either being shown or discovering where the heck Microsoft decides to move that particular option to when the OS updates.

              The amount of people sat at computers at work that simply learn by rote and don't have even the faintest clue of very simple stuff that'd help them immensely in their jobs is enormous, in my experience. Because companies won't ensure that their staff have even basic IT understanding (because that costs), they're kept in a state of thinking of IT as magic and fear using what they aren.t already using at work - which MS is fine with, because $ (naturally - that's what they exist to produce).

              In effect, bosses don't want to move from Windows even when its practical through a combination of lack of understanding of IT and the retraining costs and because they know their staff will prefer the familiar because the bosses cant be bothered to train them properly, Yup -I understand well that there's lock-in on Windows due to machinery in some cases, and that doing anything about those is non-trivial for perfectly good reasons.

              But I'd argue that just because MS managed to achieve lock-in on the desktop doesnt mean that Linux couldn;t do the necessary for a alrge chunk of users, because what most of them are susing these days are just browsers, so that they can access things like Salesforce. Even word processing, email and calndaring is or can be in the cloud (which personally I'm skeptical about but that's beside the point). So I'd disagree that Linux couldn't be used more widely in the workplace, I think it's essentially down to the hierarchy not understanding the issues and sticking with what they already know, in a lot of cases.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                @Esme -

                "@Naselus - do you not think though, that a lot of the problem with user support at work is that most companies don;t seem to want to train their users in IT at all, and just go for the 'learn which options to select and which buttons to click, that's all you need to know' route instead?"

                It's because

                (1) users don't always want to be trained in IT (older employees resistant to change, don't want to learn all about computers, younger employees have been using PCs since birth) and

                (2) Businesses would rather be training employees how to do their job rather than how to use a PC.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

              "No, any large company is paying millions for Windows SUPPORT when they could be using Linux or Chrome with no support at all, or else paying just as many millions to Red Hat Software to support and train users in an OS that is incompatible with all of their main business software and which would require any bespoke programs they've created in the last 20 years to be re-written from scratch at great expense."

              That is not true if you look at the numbers. Windows still charges for licenses. True that many companies have acquired the licenses they need, but there is still licensing costs. Second, the support costs for Windows are far higher than you would pay from Red Hat or Google (Chrome) with discounting. Take Chrome from Google for example. The OS license is free. The support is there... but it isn't just support for end user OS. In Chrome world, "support" includes all of the management, monitoring software. Take a look at how much the average large business pays for Enterprise CoreCAL (management software) per year... millions, just for the management software. It is true there are costs with Windows or Linux or Chrome... but Windows is far higher.

              Third, what "main business software" are you talking about... SAP, Oracle, Salesforce, any commercial app runs via the browser and they don't care about those OS at all. No rewriting of the app needs to occur to move desktop apps to the browser, just virtualize them. Although, if they are thick client desktop apps, they probably are ancient and it might make sense to rewrite them.

            3. Kiwi Silver badge
              Linux

              Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

              an OS that is incompatible with all of their main business software and which would require any bespoke programs they've created in the last 20 years to be re-written from scratch at great expense.

              What, like Windows 8, 8.1, and 10? Especially 10.

          6. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            It is amazing that companies still use Windows

            Yeah - because all that nasty, business-critical legacy software[1] can be thrown away. Obviouly, no-one needs access to it, so Just Upgrade Baby!

            Or to put it another way (with less sarcasm) - most corporate environments are not simple affairs with nice clean application sets or codebases. They are often (or at least, all the ones I've worked in have been) historically-accreted, obscure and full of twisty little passages, all alike. And a large number of grues scattered around the many, many dark corners. Change happens, but only slowly - because the business doesn't want change and won't, unless it has to.

            [1] Even when it's internally-developed with access to all the source code. It's all still written in MS-Speak with dependencies on MS Office (and not just any - a specific version..).

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

              "most corporate environments are not simple affairs with nice clean application sets or codebases. They are often (or at least, all the ones I've worked in have been) historically-accreted, obscure and full of twisty little passages, all alike."

              I agree, but how are IT departments able to use that as an excuse? It is crazy. It would be like if the accounting department was told by their auditor to move from GAAP to IFRS accounting rules and they said "Sorry, you don't know how disjointed our operations are, we are stuck in legacy processes and systems and painted ourselves into a bunch of corners. It's a real mess. Come back in five years and we'll see." If you apps and IT environment are a mess, make them not a mess.

          7. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            Disagree...large companies aren't paying millions a year to use Windows, they are paying millions a year for SUPPORT. The ability to call Microsoft and have someone onsite within 4 hours if needed is what they are paying for. Support contracts drive the business world. Switching to Linux wouldn't change that. In fact, it'd more likely be worse because there is no central Linux support because there are 8,522,903 flavors of it and there is no set way to do anything within the core. Some use apt-get, yum install, etc. all to do the same thing. I'm not sure why having to update or being told to update Windows is a bad thing either. It's saying "hey, there is this security update you need to install, you should install it" is that so bad? If people listened, WannaCry wouldn't have mattered. Same can be said about yahoos still using Windows XP and have those machines internet connected. STOP RUINING THE WORLD A-HOLES!!!!

            Also, Linux is not ready for prime time. Mainly due to a lot of the reason I pointed out above. Until there is a SINGULAR Linux desktop version and a SINGULAR company to go to for support, it's going to be what it is today. Another reason is the average person has the same amount of skill on a computer that is required to tie a shoelace. The large majority of the world is computer stupid. They won't get it. Can you imagine trying to explain what root privileges are, why you need them and how to sudo or su to the average person?????!?!?!?!?!? And I've been a Linux user for 20 years. I always look at it this way. Can I hand the computer to my mom and walk away? No? Then it's not ready. I surely couldn't had my mom a Linux computer today, even Mint, and not expect to have conversations that would make me consider jumping off of a building.

        2. Aitor 1 Silver badge

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          Oh, so you dont use cinnamon, and certainly you dont use USB devices heavily...

        3. Rob D. Bronze badge

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          Looking for Alt-Windows, a few months ago I tried out Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, CentOS (a work thing) and eventually settled on Mint also. For me it provided the best usability and fitted my requirements of the OS fairly well. Quite honestly I haven't looked back since - I retained the Win7 dual boot but haven't booted it for ages.

          But ready for prime time? It depends on your definition - for example, I use the system to provide PVR capabilities and long story short, I had to find and configure TVHeadEnd, find and configure Kodi, find and configure an obscure device driver for my DVB-T device, troubleshoot the internals of the device operation which in some circumstances simply failed silently, and even communicated with the device driver author about the location and likely cause of the failure. The driver itself is OK but susceptible to OS prioritisation so I had to modify the TVHeadEnd start-up control to increase its priority to get decent recording.

          On Windows, Media Center just loaded the device and worked. Mass market by definition.

          So will I be going back to Windows as the main OS? Absolutely not and if anyone wants a recommendation, I'd put Mint at the top of the list. Is Linux Mint a free ride to Nirvana? Not for everyone.

          Side note in kind - Linux Mint works on modern hardware and it's variants have real applicability in the real world - Jeremy Corbyn is more of a CP/M proposition combining a nostalgic harking back a few decades to a simpler time with a lack of practical application in the real world of today.

        4. Mark Dempster

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          >Until the balance suddenly tips, and people actually see Linux for what it is, a decent OS.<

          In order to succeed on the desktop, Linux has to lose what its supporters evangelise over so much - choice. When there are so many distros and so many GUIs to choose from, that all do things in slightly different ways, you're not going to get the standardisation that business requires to make their users productive (standard training courses or manuals, etc).

          In order for corporates to adopt it you'll also want compatibility with (or at least a close alternative to) Active Directory and Group Policy. Bake those into the OS and it might stand a chance; without it, support costs go through the roof.

          1. DropBear Silver badge
            Trollface

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            "I see 3 main Linux isn't gaining in the desktop market"

            I, for one, see zero reasons...

          2. John Savard Silver badge

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            It certainly is true that if any new operating system is going to supplant Windows, it would have to be a new standard. One that third-party software developers can write software for.

            And Linux isn't a standard when there are so many different distros. Can a binary run under Linux?

            There's Linux for the x86 and for the ARM. There's Gnome and KDE.

            In fact, though, one can assume that x86 is the "standard", and, as well, currently most modern applications only need some features from either Gnome or KDE that aren't in the basic Linux operating system itself. So if those two desktop environments could be unified, a common standard that Linux distros could support could be achieved.

            Possibly BSD rather than Linux should be the basis for a "new standard", since one thing it will really need is good security.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

        Yawn..... M$, Yawn Linux ooohhhhhhhhh lovely

        Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo tedious......

        If Microsoft went to the wall who the hell would you guys have to pick on next

        My 5 year old behaves better than the vocal Linux community on here

        I never slag off products, they each have their place - people are another matter - the only thing keeping me from using Linux are Linux users - the back stabbing arrogance of the vocal many (cant say majority) is enough to keep me away.

        Sits back and awaits the downvotes

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          "Sits back and awaits the downvotes"

          Downvoted primarily because you requested it, but also for doing precisely what you complained about. Lumping all users of one OS into the same boat.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            Actually if you'd read it properly I did say MANY (can't say majority).

            Its like anything in life though, when the community allows idiots to shout loud without reigning them back in, the voice of the idiots will be heard loudest (take Torvalds for instance, what a c**k). When the Linux community cleans up it's act it might be better placed at taking over in professional environments.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          > I never slag off products...

          Only the people who have an opinion about them that is different to my own.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            I said MANY (should have gone to specsavers)

        3. Someone Else Silver badge

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          OK...Here's one!

        4. RegGuy1

          Yawn..... M$, Yawn Linux ooohhhhhhhhh lovely

          Yeah, well you might like Windows, but for me it is a pile of shite.

          Personally I spend much of my time in vi or at the bash prompt. With sed, awk and all the other clever tools on Linux I get soooo muuuuch done. I get to use a computer just as it was intended, as a tool to make my life easier.

          I write a script the first time I do something then I run the script whenever I want to do it again. Or better, put it in cron, and it does it for me. Wiping my arse or what?

          And Windows? Oh yes, I have to use that interface that is designed for even granny to use. Let me remember what I did before, hang on, here it is. Yep, click there and there, open that, enter some text (again; damn I've lost the link... ok. again); do some more mouse jiggery-pokery, click ok and...

          Fuck, something went wrong. If only I could get the damned thing to remember what I did last time. Oh no I can't, because the interface is designed for granny. So we ALL have to live with the lowest common denominator.

          THAT is why Windows is SHITE. Microsoft controls it not you.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Yawn..... M$, Yawn Linux ooohhhhhhhhh lovely

            Never said I dislike Linux over widows, as I said all OS's have their place.

            IMHO when it comes to Linux in a professional environment, I'd like to see professional (in act not necessarily paid for) support and help. When in the past I've been on forums asking for help all I've encountered is abuse and ridicule because I'm a noob. On Windows forums, Windows issues are invariably greeted with "it must be a virus" or some other inane comment, but when I wade through the dross I can normally find something sensible.

            I asked once about running Win 95 in a virtual environment on Linux - all I got was why would I want to do that....... Not one answer helping me with the problem I'd asked about, and it wasn't the first and last time I've posted and similar ridicule on a whole host of issues.. (and before anyone asks it's because the alternative would have been to spend £300k + on the big machine attached to the PC as nobody does software other than Win 95 for it)

            Seriously, if Linux wants to be a viable alternative to Windows in a business environmanet, the Linux community needs to either oust the idiots or at the very least get them to keep their traps shut. Until such time I'll happily stick with Windows or (hell - I don't like to admit it) Apple or other.

            This wasn't an attack on Linux or the large proportion of sensible Linux users - just the idiots - and anyone denying they are out there - well what side of the fence do you fall on ?

            1. jelabarre59 Silver badge

              Re: Yawn..... M$, Yawn Linux ooohhhhhhhhh lovely

              IMHO when it comes to Linux in a professional environment, I'd like to see professional (in act not necessarily paid for) support and help. When in the past I've been on forums asking for help all I've encountered is abuse and ridicule because I'm a noob.

              Stop using StackExchange, you'll feel much better.

            2. Kiwi Silver badge

              Re: Yawn..... M$, Yawn Linux ooohhhhhhhhh lovely

              On Windows forums, Windows issues are invariably greeted with "it must be a virus" or some other inane comment, but when I wade through the dross I can normally find something sensible.

              I've seen MS professionals (whatever they call them on MS's own sites) getting abusive to users who insist they have a particular problem when said MS Pro claims such a problem is impossible. Only fix was a reinstall in the end. See people abused because "my system won't boot, just has a flashing cursor" isn't a suitable response to the advice "just go to system restore to fix it". And all sorts of abuse of "clueless noobs" on there.

              I've seen great people on Linux forums go to huge lengths to help someone out with some obscure problem.

              And I've seen the opposite. A MS support tech calling from the UK on her own dime because she too was pissed at the "you're lying, this problem cannot happen" response from her peers, and some Linux people being downright dicks to an honest question from a newbie.

              As to the question "why would you want to do that", sometimes the question is asked as in "what are you trying to achieve" - so then they can give you the best answer. I've asked the same on a regular basis, "why do you want to do such-and-such"; by understanding their need/desire I have a greater chance to give them advice the works. Course, there are those who say it in a less-than-helpful sense, but I've seen those in Windows places as well.

          2. DA717

            Re: Yawn..... M$, Yawn Linux ooohhhhhhhhh lovely

            Funny thing is, the reason you give why you hate Windows is the exact reason Linux isn't for the majority. The majority of computer user ARE granny. There are few power users outside of the tech community and most of the world is not part of the tech community.

            1. Kiwi Silver badge
              WTF?

              Re: Yawn..... M$, Yawn Linux ooohhhhhhhhh lovely

              Funny thing is, the reason you give why you hate Windows is the exact reason Linux isn't for the majority. The majority of computer user ARE granny.

              So.. A simple, intuitive and stable UI is impossible for them to use, but Windows which changes each release, changes even when explicitly told not to change, moves (and removes) settings constantly is something they'll manage to handle?

              Rubbish. Do you people not realise how stupid your undying support for MS makes you look? Do they have your kids at the point of a gun or something? How else do you justify supporting that garbage?

              I give elderly friends (and family) Linux, and they love it, because they can use their computers again. They're not fearful to browse the web because of drivebys etc, they not worried that updates will kill their settings, no need to worry that the family snapshots will be slurped by some scumbag company intent on doing who-knows-what with the pics of the grandkids at the pool. They find their lives much improved by ditching Windows in place of Linux. They're not power users, they don't need to know what sudo is or what root is (I take care of that stuff through ssh if I really need to, they just want a machine that works. They want a machine that when they shut it off before going to bed, it's shut off a few seconds later not some rubbish "please wait for an hour or more while we slowly install a kilobyte of updates" and the same when they turn it on in the morning (older people tend to prefer to turn things off at the wall before going to bed at nights IME).

              So do the old folks in your life a massive favour they'll love you forever for. Take their windows junkboxes, wipe it (after taking their documents and other stuff like email/passwords off), install any Linux (Zorin has a nice Windows 7 look and feel, others do XP if you need to), and give them a machine they can use and enjoy again, where they don't have to wait hours for the thing to slowly faff around doing who knows what. Where their internet connection is their internet connection, not a conduit for some (probably) pervs to download all their personal data. Give them a machine they'll love and enjoy, rather than a piece of shit they fear and despise.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Yawn..... M$, Yawn Linux ooohhhhhhhhh lovely

                @Kiwi ........ My point about certain members of the Linux community putting people off made perfectly I think

                this is why Linux isn't ready for the big time - I'm sure if granny had issues with a PC she'd love to wade through the mire

      3. LDS Silver badge

        "But since MS still controls the distribution system"

        Are you writing your post from the 1990s? MS controls the distribution system very little today - or, for example, you won't see Chromebooks made and promoted. Dell sells you PCs with Ubuntu preinstalled. All of them are so eager to sell PCs they would sell them with any OS that sells enough, and which doesn't cost them too much in support costs.

        The fact physical shops mostly don't have them is simply because Linux PCs don't sell that way. What would you preinstall? RedHat? Fedora? CentOS? Debian? Ubuntu? Mint? <put your distro here>? Linux users buy a PC and then install what they want to use.

        It's years I buy PCs without a preinstalled OS - of course they are not the cheap $299 one you find at supermarkets. Those need so be subsidized somehow, and which Linux company would do that?

        1. Walter Bishop Silver badge
          Linux

          Re: "But since MS still controls the distribution system"

          "Dell sells you PCs with Ubuntu preinstalled"

          Only online and and you can't get it in the high street and you see this on the website: "Dell recommends Windows 10 Pro."

          1. wallaby

            Re: "But since MS still controls the distribution system"

            "Dell recommends Windows 10 Pro."

            No doubt you recommend Linux - so the problem is....... ?

            Or aren't companies allowed to have preferred choices..... should we extend that to users ?.....

      4. MrXavia

        Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

        I see 3 main Linux isn't gaining in the desktop market

        1) No supported major applications (yes I know there are alternatives but they are not the same)

        2) Poor game support

        Most of the other issues can be solved fairly easily by the open source community

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

          1. MrXavia

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            @Shadmeister

            I guess that is what happens when I don't proof read!

            But my instinctive no 3 is limited legacy windows application support.

            @DropBear I think I didn't have enough coffee today!

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          And then you all miss the biggest cost. Most organizations have, with few exceptions, enough staff that the cost of training the staff. Generally the cost of 1 hour's training, regardless if this is enough, if vastly more than the licensing costs for Windows. Not to mention the reduced efficiency while staff, generally non-technical themselves, learn to use something else and the reduced satisfaction of staff forced to learn something new. Most places I have worked use software, to may be different if all they need is a web browser.

          There is also generally a cost to moving data and workflows away from the software which only works on Windows / Mac normally and then often there are several industry standard pieces of software and using them is expected.

          It staff trainined and experienced in Linux support are also expensive.

          As you can see the cost of purchasing licenses is hardly relevant to the cost of ownership. Sorry to say as I quite frankly love Linux and use it on 65% of my personal computers! Of course the cost of making a Wannacry type mistake is another thing in itself and may be avoided by using Linux, but that is another thing in it's entirety.

          1. Kiwi Silver badge

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            Generally the cost of 1 hour's training, regardless if this is enough, if vastly more than the licensing costs for Windows.

            So.. The significant changes from 3.x to 9x, the significant changes from 9x to XP, the significant changes from XP to Vista, minor but enough from XP to 7, very major changes from 7 to 8, significant changes from 8 to 8.1, very major changes from 8.1 to 10, and the many changes within 10 - how did they mitigate against these extra training costs? Or the many changes in UI from version to version of Office?

            I'm using Mate on Linux. Largely the same interface as I had waaaaaay back under Gnome 2 (has some features I love which aren't readily available elsewhere, but I am partial also to KDE at times, which has been stable for some years as well). Even with the different UI's in Linux there's still a lot of logic behind the layout, so much so that computer illiterate people can still easily find their way around and do stuff with confidence that they cannot even begin to figure out on Windows.

            Note if not in this thread than in another in the last few days a Win pusher has been saying all you have to do is learn where the config settings go from new version to new version.

            It staff trainined and experienced in Linux support are also expensive.

            No. Double-clicking the Firefox icon on your desktop is double-clicking the fierfox icon on your desktop on any OS. Or you can have it on the task bar. Few users need more than a few programs at work, and there is enough screen real estate that they can have what they need pinned to the taskbar or on the desktop (especially if you train them the desktop is not a good place to store documents!).

            My eldest friends and family members are now all experienced in Linux. They don't have problems with it, and that's because the UI is simple, intuitive, and stable

      5. Patrician

        Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

        Sorry but Linux, in any form is not a viable replacement for Windows as an OS;many companies still have legacy software that will only run in Windows, and quite often Linux versions of software are lacking in functionality and/or the interface looks like it was created in 1995.

        Not to mention the number of times it's necessary to drop to command line in Linux to carry out operations that in Windows can be done by a few mouse clicks; also the fact that there is still a lack of hardware support for Linux, from even major manufacturers, means Linux is still not really ready for general usage by the great unwashed.

        1. Walter Bishop Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          Patrician: "Linux versions of software are lacking in functionality and/or the interface looks like it was created in 1995."

          Your FUD definitely looks like it was created in 1990:

          Linux Mint 18.1 "Cinnamon" overview

          KDE Plasma 5.X Review 2015

          Ubuntu Gnome 17.04 Review

          Unity 5 running on Ubuntu Natively

          Patrician: "Not to mention the number of times it's necessary to drop to command line in Linux to carry out operations that in Windows can be done by a few mouse clicks";

          How to enable and disable SMBv1, SMBv2, and SMBv3 in Windows and Windows Server: '.. configure the following registry key:

          Registry subkey: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\LanmanServer\ParametersRegistry entry: SMB1

          REG_DWORD: 0 = Disabled

          REG_DWORD: 1 = Enabled

          Default: 1 = Enabled'

          1. Patrician

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            ...."Your FUD definitely looks like it was created in 1990:

            Linux Mint 18.1 "Cinnamon" overview

            KDE Plasma 5.X Review 2015

            Ubuntu Gnome 17.04 Review

            Unity 5 running on Ubuntu Natively"

            I was referring the software not the OS with this comment as I stated in the comment it's self.

            How often does an end user need to disable SMB shares manually on their PC? Again I was referring primarily to software/driver installation example as below:-

            Install Plex Home Theater in Mint run the following commands (Once you've managed to work out which version will work in Mint that is):-

            sudo add-apt-repository ppa:plexapp/plexht

            sudo apt-get update

            sudo apt-get install plexhometheater

            Install Plex Home Theater in Windows:-

            Download, left click "setup", left click "next", left click "next", left click "finish" - all done and no need to go any where near a command line.

            While it's still necessary to drop to command line to carry simple tasks like installing some software Linux, Mint or otherwise, will never be ready for main stream use.*

            * I'm not talking about people like us that post here, by "mainstream" I'm referring to "users" in the very broad sense.

            1. Kiwi Silver badge
              FAIL

              Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

              Install Plex Home Theater in Mint run the following commands (Once you've managed to work out which version will work in Mint that is):-

              Just checked. Can do it via GUI interface. IOW, what you say is rubbish.

              As to disabling SMB, enabling hardware etc - every time an MS update puts it into an inappropriate state.

              BTW, since you like talking about bits of OS's that make them extra difficult, how do you reliably get around "the drive where windows is installed is locked, please unlock the drive..." when Windows won't boot? Hm? How is that easier than doing a quick copy'n'paste of a few commands into the CLI? How do you get Windows 10 into any sort of repair mode, other than deciding before you shut it down that it must be time for it to fail to start so you can choose safe mode before you know you need it? How is that sort of shit even defensible?

              While it's still necessary

              For people like you to spread lies about other OS's, people will still be stuck with that malware infested mess.

              I have plenty of people who are elderly, don't know much about computers, and use Linux happily - chiefly Mint but I have put some on other things in years parts.

              They love it because it is fast, stable, secure, doesn't spy on them, doesn't disable network hardware/cameras/printers etc due to failed updates. doesn't delete software because MS has a competing product that is less than worthless crapon a whim because of "compatibility", doesn't tale hours to shut down and even more hours to restart doing "updates" in a style that should never have been used since 1995, oh and any hardware they plug in "just works straight away", never a need for drivers etc etc.. IOW, they thank me for making their computers easy to use again, and making it look like the interface they're used to (XP or 7) rather than the new interfaces that confuse them. They want to be able to chat reliably to the grandkids, some emailing, some facebook, and for the real technical ones, a spreadsheet so they can keep track of their finances. And they want to be able to trust that their stuff will work when they turn their machine on, and their privacy respected.

              The trust has gone from Windows, as has the usability.

              1. Updraft102 Silver badge

                Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

                "How do you get Windows 10 into any sort of repair mode, other than deciding before you shut it down that it must be time for it to fail to start so you can choose safe mode before you know you need it? How is that sort of shit even defensible?"

                Boot from the Windows 10 DVD or USB stick (which works even if Windows is so messed up it can't even get into the recovery environment) and select repair. It's definitely a step backward from the old F8 menu, though, and you can have that back with a registry edit (assuming you do that in advance, before there is any trouble). I did with Windows 8.1 (which also has the F8 removed by default), and I have used F8 many times since then.

                Supposedly, the F8 option has been removed for purposes of speeding up the boot process, but I can't see any difference between having it enabled and having it not enabled. If there is a difference, it's too slight to be noticed, and with that being the case, I would rather have the F8 menu be standard once again, for the reasons you mentioned. But this is from the company that now thinks it's appropriate to have a sad face emoticon and "something happened" instead of the old blue screen, and that now uses a creepily familiar tone with system messages like "We're setting things up for you" or "we've updated your computer." In the ransomware era... who is "we?" (Who is General Failure and why is he reading my drive C:?)

        2. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          "Not to mention the number of times it's necessary to drop to command line in Linux to carry out operations that in Windows can be done by a few mouse clicks"

          how about "not to mention the number of times it's necessary to take my right hand off of the damn keyboard in Winders to go mousie-clickie-mousie-clickie-mousie-clickie to carry out operations that in Linux can be done with a single clever shell command."

          I stick my tongue out and make a raspberry noise in your general direction!

        3. Mephistro Silver badge

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'(@ Patrician) (tl;dr)

          "Linux, in any form is not a viable replacement for Windows as an OS"

          Four years ago, I decided to do my best to never have to install a MS server again. Since then, I've installed -and maintain- about twenty of them. The happiest server owners you'll ever meet!

          Regarding desktops, when one of them has to be taken behind the shed, but runs vintage software the company can't allow itself to rewrite/repurchase, there are several options, including virtual machines and dual boot+ heavy firewalling of the Windows installation, so as to access only, e.g. game servers or Autodesk's cloudy karp. Legality? You have a valid Windows license, you are in the clear.

          Regarding hardware support, I've done this a few times to allow customers to use old stuff -big format scanners and plotters. For some of them there are open source drivers that can [communicate with]/[emulate] almost anything. In the worst case you can buy an ElCheapo Chinese comms board -Ej, SCSI or Serial interfaces. Agreed it can be a hit or miss thing, but those boards are nowadays so cheap that if one of them doesn't perform as expected you can either absorb the cost or send it back and buy a different one.

          My point is that thanks to Linux, lots of people can keep using their old stuff, sometimes for decades. It takes a little bit of time and effort, but it usually ends up working well. Of course you don't do this for a cheap personal devices like A4 scanners or laser printers.

          Sorry for this brick of a comment! 8^)

          * In reality, its equivalence in the European national coins of that era.

        4. Esme

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          @Patrician - I don't know what scenarios you have in mind that require using the command line in Linux, but I wouldn't use Linux if I had to keep going to the command line for everyday stuff, and I most certainly wouldn't reccomend it to friends if that were so. And yet I do use it every day at home, and have reccomended it to friends, most of whom are still using it. And I'm closer to being a user than a tecchie than most that frequent these forums.

          Even with the UI, I find Linux easier to use than Windows (At home, I'm a long-term Xfce user, but can live with MATE or Cinammon. At work it's Windows 7). The WIndows Control centre is , to this user, an unintuitive mess, despite having had to use Windows at work since it came out, and using it at home for about four years when Win98 came out.

          Sure Linux has its faults, but for the average user it's a damned sight easier to use and less hassle than Windows is, in my experience. I've had little problem with printers, webcams and graphics cards for years now. (I actually cannot recall the last time any hardware I wanted to use didn't just work once connected). As for the command line - what in gods name are you DOING with it?! You dont need it to start and close browsers, office software, games, media players - you don't even need it to install or remove software.

          Of course, YMMV depending on what kit you have/buy/want to connect, but honestly, the non-tecchies I've introduced to Linux are happy as a wossname with it, and wouldn't countence having to mess with the command line at all. And Linux wins hands down on value, of course. (In the dim mists of time I have bought both Mandrake Linux and SuSe with support, but more to give back something to teh creators of the distros, as it turned out it worked so well I didn't need support). (shrugs. sorry, but to imply that Linux isn't suitable for non-tecchies 'because command line' just is not true for the vast majority of users, IMO.

        5. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          "many companies still have legacy software that will only run in Windows"

          I don't think this is true anymore. It certainly was true 15 years ago. Most of the major and minor apps today are web based. SAP, Oracle, Google Apps, Salesforce, Workday, most of Adobe's stuff, Marketo, etc runs via a browser. Even MSFT is moving their apps to the browser. There are a handful of thick client apps in organizations, but it is no big deal to use XenApp or whatever to virtualize them on the server. It is totally possible to do away with Windows... most large IT orgs just enjoy doing what they have been doing. Not comfortable with change. IT orgs have really bad incentive systems... SLAs. They are rewarded for nothing bad happening, but not so much for something good happening. If the CRM which everyone hates has good uptime, that is their SLA met.... It all needs to change.

        6. Kiwi Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          and/or the interface looks like it was created in 1995.

          Yes, that flat UI look is just so 1991MODERN!

          Not to mention the number of times it's necessary to drop to command line in Linux to carry out operations that in Windows can be done by a few mouse clicks;

          What, like when windows update yet again screws your networking hardware and you need powershell to get it working again? Oh wait, windoze again.

          I'm trying to think of a situation where a normal user would have a need to go to CLI, but I can't. I do often for running things like updates (which take a few minutes, not hours of "please wait while windows installs updates" when trying to shut down/restart - FFS that shit should've been written out more than 20 years ago!). Nope, can't think of one. But Windows, however... Seems common to need to use command/power shell to fix things.

          Oh, and there's the wonderful "the drive where windows is installed is locked" problem, or the even more totally retarded needing to have a perfectly functioning system to be able to bring up safe-mode etc, rather than being able to do that stuff from a menu when the system is broken. You know, like when you actually need it.

          When you want to complain about Linux, please wait until this totally ridiculous shit in MS's crap is fixed. It only makes you look like an idiot to support them over a better system when so much idiocy reigns supreme. (hoped this had improved since I last looked but no, still stupid beyond belief).

          As to "lack of hardware support", again, get with reality! I don't have to spend hours hunting for drivers on Linux, hoping the site isn't going to give me something nasty. I plug a device in, it works. Has been a very long time since I had to find drivers for Linux. Not with Windows, no, not easy to get hardware working with that.

      6. naive

        Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

        This is so to the point. Think about it, MS sold end user OS for that log, how many countless billions did they earn with it ?. Nobody knows, except they did not invest much of it in improving the quality of their products. But why should they, they have a monopoly, together with Intel they are still able to squeeze as much they want out of the consumer as they want (yeah Intel, why can i not buy a nice upgrade CPU for a 4 yo laptop that costs $50,- instead of more than a new laptop ?). Like AT&T and IBM in the 70's, MS should have been subjected to effective anti-trust litigation, but nothing was done, except tipping off some "fines". What should have been done is that MS was obliged to sell the source code of Windows to any company interested in developing products based on this, like IBM had to give interface specifications to competitors so they could make IBM 370 plug compatibles. If that had been done 10 years ago, we would have a better desktop OS for a lower price, and no single vendor policy for governments wanting to peek into the computers of their citizens.

      7. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

        Someone I know who is running their own business (total employees: one) balked at the idea of Win8 when they saw it in the flesh. They eventually settled on a large Samsung Galaxy android tablet, with a wireless keyboard and mouse. He said When MSFT start being sensible again I'll switch back but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

          Someone I know who is running their own business (total employees: one) balked at the idea of Win8 when they saw it in the flesh. They eventually settled on a large Samsung Galaxy android tablet, with a wireless keyboard and mouse

          Why not have stayed with Win 7??

          1. neeeargh

            Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

            Support is ending soon. Wanncrypt demostrated the potential pain involved with running an unsupported OS.

      8. Tejekion

        Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

        I beg to differ. Until I can point and click install an app from anywhere And can get updates on every linux system, it's not ready to me.

    2. hplasm Silver badge
      Angel

      Re: "locked Internet Explorer into the operating system to make up the lost ground..

      Windows 10 Creationist Edition.

      What MS believe about Windows is not what everyone else believes...

  2. Wade Burchette

    Nothing new under the sun

    Windows 10 has a nasty habit of disabling/uninstalling things it does not like.

    For example, I downloaded a driver for a HP computer straight from HP's website. Windows 10 said it was not compatible (or maybe it said it was a security risk?) and would not run the installer. There were no clear instructions on what do if this was a false positive (which it was). With a bit of Googling, I run a command prompt as an admin, and the driver installed successfully.

    Another example. Windows 10 uninstalled Classic Shell 4.2.5 after an update.

    Yet another example. I had an old version of CCleaner which Windows 10 said was no longer compatible. I changed the file name to xyz.exe and it ran just fine.

    After CCleaner, I sent a feedback message complaining about this. I essentially ask them who gave them the right to determine which program is or is not compatible. I made sure to use the word "program" and I made sure to tell them that when I renamed the file, everything worked perfectly. Like my requests for Aero, a working preboot F8, a full backup program, a logical hierarchy based start menu, and respect for my private life, I know the feedback will be ignored. Microsoft claims they are listening, but only feedback which says "good job" is listened to. What us paying customers actually want is burned with the ashes thrown in a safe and the safe hurled into the deepest part of the ocean.

    But I am a sucker, and I keep sending feedback. And I keep telling them that it is their constant douchebaggery is the reason why my primary will be Windows 7 until 2020 and then Linux Mint after that.

    1. Updraft102 Silver badge

      Re: Nothing new under the sun

      Welcome to Windows as a service. You've been serviced! All Windows 10 users are there to be serviced. Against their will, if necessary.

    2. BillG Silver badge
      Megaphone

      Re: Nothing new under the sun

      Quote from an IT guy that came to service my Windows 10 company laptop two weeks ago: "Windows Defender couldn't find a virus if it was jumping up and down screaming 'HERE I AM! HERE I AM!' "

      1. nkuk

        Re: Nothing new under the sun

        Windows Defender is like the Emperors New Clothes - as good as useless.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Nothing new under the sun

      "Like my requests for Aero, a working preboot F8, a full backup program, a logical hierarchy based start menu, and respect for my private life, I know the feedback will be ignored. Microsoft claims they are listening, but only feedback which says "good job" is listened to."

      What about feedback that says, "I'm talking with lawyers."?

      1. bazza Silver badge

        Re: Nothing new under the sun

        Sadly these days MS seems to be responding, "our lawyers are more expensive than your lawyers, and we can afford to keep them busy for the rest of eternity".

        Doesn't mean they win, but they do seem prepared to go to court against their users!!!!! Customer Relationship Management at its finest...

        1. Adam 52 Silver badge

          Re: Nothing new under the sun

          "our lawyers are more expensive than your lawyers"

          At some point that will change to:

          "our lawyers are more expensive than your government's lawyers"

          Whether that's because what MS are doing is criminal (unauthorised modification of a computer system) or upsets a competition regulator.

          MS will still have better lawyers and the damage will be long gone but it will be a fairer fight.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Nothing new under the sun

            "At some point that will change to:

            "our lawyers are more expensive than your government's lawyers""

            And they reply, "Oh? We're already there." As I recall, there ARE firms bigger than Microsoft.

      2. neeeargh

        Re: Nothing new under the sun

        F8 can come back if you want it to, I do occasionally notice it's admission. Of course if you fail the boot (I think) 5 times you get a menu allowing safe mode:

        http://www.thewindowsclub.com/safe-mode-in-windows-8

        Windows backup is pretty good these days as are the many free and paid for alternatives.

        As opposed to the hierarchical menu the majority of users find the search quicker in my experience nearly all the time. YMMV. The program listing is still there although it is flat. Even Linux changes, after all Ubuntu is returning to Gnome.

        1. Kiwi Silver badge
          Linux

          Re: Nothing new under the sun

          F8 can come back if you want it to, I do occasionally notice it's admission. Of course if you fail the boot (I think) 5 times you get a menu allowing safe mode:

          Still pretty useless when you run into "the drive where windows is installed is locked. Please unlock the drive...."

          Apparently still the only way to fix is to wipe the disk and start again (didn't get to try with the one friend who I care about enough to even service W10, he said he spent several days chasing up help and the only thing he could find was "wipe+reinstall". Thankfully he backs up his personal data.

          Windows backup is pretty good these days as are the many free and paid for alternatives.

          No. Up until Win 7, Windows backup was good. Now it's foul beyond belief, and that's just with the garbage in 8.1 (recently tried to do a backup on an Uncle's machine before trying him on Linux - now know I didn't need to as he loves Linux and wouldn't know if Windows still works or not)

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Nothing new under the sun

      " I know the feedback will be ignored. "

      Not necessarily. Next time round it'll be looking for renamed CCleaner.

    5. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "What us paying customers actually want is burned "

      Depends if you really bought that copy of Windows.

      AFAIK most are bought by the HW mfg.

      From MS PoV they actually only have about 6 "real" customers.

      And you aren't one of them.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      Re: Nothing new under the sun

      I downloaded a driver for a HP computer straight from HP's website...

      There are viruses that do less damage and consume fewer resources than HP drivers. Quite right for Windows to reject that. No excuse for uninstalling Classic Shell though.

    7. Someone Else Silver badge
      Coat

      @Wade Burchette -- Re: Nothing new under the sun

      Like my requests for Aero, a working preboot F8, a full backup program, a logical hierarchy based start menu, and respect for my private life, I know the feedback will be ignored. Microsoft claims they are listening, but only feedback which says "good job" is listened to.

      Microsoft is the Donald Trump of the software world.

    8. neeeargh

      Re: Nothing new under the sun

      You can re-add F8 if you want to except a longer boot time.

      http://www.thewindowsclub.com/safe-mode-in-windows-8

  3. Updraft102 Silver badge

    "One of the key planks of Kaspersky’s case against Microsoft is that it cut compatability testing times from two months to six days."

    Come on, Kaspersky, you must know that Microsoft testing is now being done by end users post-release.

  4. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

    Admission

    It seems Slurp admitted to the gist of Kaspersky's claims, Bloat 10 will disable/uninstall programs Slurp claims are not compatible. A good shyster will give Slurp a rough go of it at trial.

    1. Updraft102 Silver badge

      Re: Admission

      We already know that Microsoft uses the relatively benign phrase "not supported" (as in "Windows 7 is not supported on Kaby Lake and Ryzen") when they really mean something much more sinister, like "we don't care if it works, we're going to sabotage it."

      With that in mind, "not compatible" probably means exactly the same thing.

      It doesn't seem like Microsoft really has any specific competitive reason to block Kaspersky. Defender doesn't make MS any money... it's an antimalware program of last resort, something to fill the gap if the user doesn't provide something else. It's not like Internet Explorer, where MS hoped to leverage their browser dominance to push proprietary WWW extensions and sell more Frontpage and IIS server packages that supported those extensions.

      Similarly, there's no great reason for MS to remove things like Speccy, Classic Shell, or CCleaner. They don't have competing products for any of those things.

      To me, these seemingly random uninstallations, along with the unwanted download/installation of apps (and other assorted things) seem to be a display of MS marking its territory. Your formerly personal computer is now Microsoft's territory, and MS wants to make damn sure you are aware of it. For now, they're removing stuff that MS doesn't have a direct competitor for... once people have gotten used to MS removing stuff and accepted it as the new normal, who knows?

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        "once people have gotten used to MS removing stuff and accepted it as the new normal, who knows?"

        Indeed.

        "Push in the bayonet. If it meets fat, push harder"

        VI Lenin teaches so many valuable lessons to the receptive PHB.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Admission

        Control. It's all about control.

      3. Omgwtfbbqtime Silver badge
        Facepalm

        "Defender doesn't make MS any money... "

        YET.

        FTFY

      4. Alumoi

        Re: Admission

        Similarly, there's no great reason for MS to remove things like Speccy, Classic Shell, or CCleaner. They don't have competing products for any of those things.

        Sure, they don't have competing services, but let's examine the culprits:

        - Classic Shell make WinX usable

        - Speccy will show you how much bloat there's built in WinX

        - CCleaner will remove all those interesting logs just waiting to be slurped.

        Any sane company would want these kind of programs removed.

        1. Kiwi Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: Admission

          Any sane company would want these kind of programs removed.

          That'd let the current version of MS off the hook then wouldn't it?

    2. bazza Silver badge

      Re: Admission

      There is one aspect of old AV software that is worth remembering. It has complete access to the entire system, and it can itself become a vector for infection. We have already seen this, where the AV software's update mechanism could be turned against it and used to install malware.

      Let me see, which one was it that had that problem. Ah yes, MS defender!

      It would be highly weird if MS used that particular example as part of their defence against Kasperky's case...

      That doesn't mean the point is invalid. Old AV software can be very dangerous if exploitable bugs are found. If so, removing it is likely better than leaving it running. But MS declaring it to be actually dangerous simply because it old is probably a step too far.

      What seems totally indefensible is MS managing what apps install or not based on some weird perception of compatibility. An application is either compiled for Windows, or it's not. MS's criteria seem to be covering other aspects of applications (colour scheme?).

      I could understand it a tiny bit if an application was using a deprecated API call. If that's the case then they should put up a dialogue box saying so, or just complete the deprecation process by actually removing the API call from the OS. That would break the application, but at least there'd be a trail of notices to developers giving fair warning.

      I'm a long time Win 7 user. If Apple sort out their hardware line up I'll be heading for Mac land when 7 drops off support.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Heading for Mac Land

        Building a Hackintosh is very easy these days. Once you have a USB stick with Sierra on it, installing it takes as long as installing Linux.

        I have one and the only gripe I have with it is the lack of USB-3 (usb-2 works fine) support. But a 4-port PCI card that is supported is on its way.

        Like at least one poster here, I spent years developing software and I am amazed at how shitty W10 is both in terms of functionality and quality. Given all the resources MS has available... The mind boggles.

        1. LDS Silver badge

          "Building a Hackintosh is very easy these days"

          And still quite not legal, I guess... and while bedroom/basement users may not care, professional users have to.

          It's also interesting people believe it's ok to counter MS bad behavious - and possibly illegal - with other bad behaviours, possibly illegal. After all, you're not better than MS, and, if working for it, you would act the same ugly way.

          1. MonkeyCee Silver badge

            Re: "Building a Hackintosh is very easy these days"

            Hackintosh legality depends on your country. I can, for example, support them but not sell them. Over the border in Germany, you can sell them.

            In general, Apple doesn't care even if you use it professionally so long as a) you buy a licence and b) you don't sell boxen at retail. They are quite aware that hackies are not going to affect their sales, but pissing off hardware fiddlers is going to lead to bad press.

            Depnding on the client, they are either blown away by the hackintosh, since it's pretty much a decently specced whitebox PC without BS marget segmentatio, so you get a lot of grunt without breaking the bank. Or the clients hate it, because it's not stylish.

          2. jelabarre59 Silver badge

            Re: "Building a Hackintosh is very easy these days"

            I have on occasion set up Hackintosh VMs, but mainly to maintain familiarity with how the OS works. While mildly entertaining, I haven't found anything particularly exciting about it to switch any of my Linux boxes to MacOS (since that's what all my machines run now). I could probably fiddle with it and make it adequately functional, but I could do that with MSWindows just as easily. So I'll stick with my Linux systems that already work the way I want.

        2. jason 7

          Re: Heading for Mac Land

          I've looked it up a few times.

          It's not quite as simple as you say. You need to do your homework still and kludge a few things.

      2. Naselus

        Re: Admission

        "I'm a long time Win 7 user. If Apple sort out their hardware line up I'll be heading for Mac land when 7 drops off support."

        I'm sorry, it's hard to take anyone seriously when they say 'Microsoft are being too controlling over which software I can install, I'm off to Apple land'.

        1. Mike Moyle Silver badge

          Re: Admission

          @Naselus

          "I'm sorry, it's hard to take anyone seriously when they say 'Microsoft are being too controlling over which software I can install, I'm off to Apple land'."

          Oooooooh...! MacOS demands an Admin password to install software downloaded from the internet! How horribly nannyish of them! <eyeroll>

  5. bombastic bob Silver badge
    Megaphone

    One software vendor to rule them all...

    One software vendor to rule them all...

    One windows to find them

    One Version (10) to BRING THEM ALL

    And with FORCED UPDATES, *BIND* *THEM*

  6. Jonathan 27

    If you don't live in Russia, you don't want to be using Kaspersky Antivirus. The Russian government has full access to their software, there is nothing the company can do about it (short of executives being arrested).

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      That level of paranoia would mean you couldn't trust ANY software EVER because it can be subverted any number of ways. That includes open-source software which can be either subtly subverted or simply usurped.

      1. Jonathan 27

        It's not paranoia, the Russian government has already been caught hiding things in Kaspersky's products. Using software controlled by nation states in an adversarial role to your own is a terrible idea.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      If you don't live in Russia, you don't want to be using Kaspersky Antivirus. The Russian government has full access to their software, there is nothing the company can do about it (short of executives being arrested).

      sed -e 's/Russia/U.S.A./g' -e 's/Russian/American/' -e 's/Kaspersky Antivirus/Windows/'

      Ah. Feeling better already ;P

    3. Updraft102 Silver badge

      I would take that to mean that only people who don't live in Russia _should_ use Kaspersky. What do I care if the Russian government has my personal data? They're not going to use what they learned to fabricate some nonsense about how I must be a terrorist or criminal and come arrest me when I am not in Russia. My own country may do that to me, but they're not getting that information from Kaspersky. They'd get it from Microsoft or Google, which are about a million times worse.

    4. ShelLuser

      @Jonathan

      So that's where all the free vodka I've been getting comes from, awesome! ;)

  7. Zmodem

    I disable win10s anti virus, defender, firewall, app compatibility, malicous app etc etc services

    1. hplasm Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      @ Zmodem

      One more push- disable Windows...

  8. MacroRodent Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    Pushing Edge

    Windows 10 is naggy in a lot of regards (it seldom tires of saying how good Edge is), but proving it’s anti-competitive will be a very big chasm to cross.

    That nagging is anti-competitive in itself. EU needs to revisit the browser bundling issue.

    1. salamamba too

      Re: Pushing Edge

      I also note you can't remove edge. You can now theoretically remove IE, but win 10 has a hissy fit. To add insult to injury, I can't even get into the "Cortana" folder, let alone uninstall the thing.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Pushing Edge

      I noticed that Edge kept trying to take over display of PDF files from Acrobat [that may or may not be a good thing depending upon your point of view.]

      But yes, Edge cannot be removed, neither can the Media Player, nor Cortana or any of this other tripe foisted on an unsuspecting Windows 10 user. Completely agree with the 'they've had the past 25 years to sort this argument.'

      O365 is just a low point of resistance to generate a revenue stream that never gets turned off - the big lesson M$ found from X.Box live, 60 million people paying £60 a year is a LOT of share price propping revenue. Same applies to O365. Mugs.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    People make there own choices

    There is no illusion that MS produces quality software. Decades of Windows shite doesn't seem to be improving. It's like we should be rejoicing that W10 actually works - it's supposed to.

  10. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

    "we first temporarily disabled some parts of the AV software"

    Surely that is a weakness baked right into the OS? Because if the OS can launch that call, surely other software can too, which will defeat any Anti Malware application that sits above it?

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: "we first temporarily disabled some parts of the AV software"

      The OS can do anything. "Other" software has to play within the permissions granted by the OS.

      Well, actually, no. As regular readers of this publication will know, other applications can simply send an appropriate message to the secret web server baked into the CPU and tell the OS to go fsck itself.

      But in an ideal world ... just because the OS can do something doesn't mean that anyone else can.

  11. Ken Hagan Gold badge

    "For the small number of applications that still needed updating, we built a feature just for AV apps that would prompt the customer to install a new version of their AV app right after the update completed.”

    So Windows is putting up an ad *telling* users to buy a new version of Kaspersky, and Kaspersky are still unhappy. Sheesh!

    1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

      So Windows is putting up an ad *telling* users to buy a new version of Kaspersky, and Kaspersky are still unhappy. Sheesh!

      My thoughts as well - while I'll more than happily bash Microsoft, this "your 3rd party AV software is out of date, we suggest that you update it (and here's a link as to how to)" functionality is generally a good idea. It wouldn't take much to push it towards promoting Microsoft's own services at the exlusion of others but as it is, it's most likely a good thing. Likewise, Microsoft's helping out by covering any gaps in AV support automatically is generally a good idea, particularly when you consider that, unlike the pagmatic techie bunch that lurk here, the majority of computer users really don't care, and in many ways shouldn't have to, and just want their PC to continue acting as a word processor, web browser, video player and game platform. As long as the transition is clear and above board, this is also likely to be a good thing.

      Unfortunately most of us here have been on the receiving end of, or observed, Microsoft's considerably less than noble actions in the past... Abuse of trust is not an easy thing to forget or forgive.

      1. Boothy

        It doesn't help that the popup is over keen as well, turning up a few seconds after boot up, warning that the AV client is out of date, this before the AV client has even managed to check online for updates (which it completed a few seconds later)!

  12. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    "Microsoft is trying the same trick," "Redmond is ready to fight such claims. "

    As it always was.

    Microsoft has no friends in the software business. Only competitors to destroy or consume

    anti virus represents another niche for them to colonize.

    Although TBF to MS they basically created the AV business in the first place.

    With their ongoing inability to write secure code. 2017 and still with the stack overflows?

  13. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Microsoft: from vindictive to cack-handed...

    In its now usual cack-handed fashion Microsoft is possibly attempting to do the right thing here. We know AV software digs deep into Windows, patching hardened APIs and pulling all sorts of nefarious tricks to get itself embedded. To me, that is now an unacceptable risk. If Microsoft is spending time adding parameter validation and hardening the Windows kernel only to have that undermined by an AV tool patching and hacking it all away, then that AV tool needs to be blocked. If an AV tool can patch its way in to intercept whole families of calls, so can a virus.

    But Microsoft is its own worst enemy here. The security model they introduced with NT was exceptionally fine grained, and so exceptionally complex. This baffled Windows developers who at the time were used to either a call succeeding or the machine crashing. So Microsoft had us run everything as Administrators and a generation of developers was let off the hook. Unix has a far simpler model, and, thanks to the success of Linux, had to quickly grow under very watchful eyes, whereas Microsoft bolted more and more cruft on: DRM, trust zones, group policies, the .net security model and code signing, assemblies, registry key security and more. Who the hell really understands how all of that interacts? It's no wonder that even now, the security model is badly and inconsistently applied by developers. Much easier to ask for everything.

    Now the era of Gates and Ballmer is over (and thank God for that), Microsoft is far less vindictive; but SadNad has replaced the vindictive drive with lumbering cack-handedness and incompetence instead. Not really much of an evolution.

    1. dajames Silver badge

      Re: Microsoft: from vindictive to cack-handed...

      In its now usual cack-handed fashion Microsoft is possibly attempting to do the right thing here. We know AV software digs deep into Windows, patching hardened APIs and pulling all sorts of nefarious tricks to get itself embedded. To me, that is now an unacceptable risk. If Microsoft is spending time adding parameter validation and hardening the Windows kernel only to have that undermined by an AV tool patching and hacking it all away, then that AV tool needs to be blocked. If an AV tool can patch its way in to intercept whole families of calls, so can a virus.

      Quite.

      If third-party AV products are capable of burrowing deeply enough into Windows to carry out their function, without Windows detecting and preventing this, then third-party malware can do the same.

      Which leaves us with a quandry -- we'd like Windows to be hardened to the point at which the malware cannot run, but we'd also like to able to run third-party AV tools. The two are not compatible goals.

      The answer may be for Microsoft to produce an official AV Tool API that the third-party AV vendors can use, with some validity checking (code-signing, etc) so that only approved AV Tool vendors can use the API ... but that would need to be done very carefully, as errors in the API validation could lead to a very bad exploit.

      (Oh, but I make it sound so simple! In reality each vendor would want a different API with a different set of functions, and Microsoft would end up providing an API that had not quite all the functionality that any of them wanted ... probably with an unforeseen exploit arising from a combination of features requested by different vendors. It is software, after all.)

      1. nkuk

        Re: Microsoft: from vindictive to cack-handed...

        "The answer may be for Microsoft to produce an official AV Tool API that the third-party AV vendors can use, with some validity checking (code-signing, etc) so that only approved AV Tool vendors can use the API ... but that would need to be done very carefully, as errors in the API validation could lead to a very bad exploit."

        Thats how it already works.

    2. Updraft102 Silver badge

      Re: Microsoft: from vindictive to cack-handed...

      "Now the era of Gates and Ballmer is over (and thank God for that), Microsoft is far less vindictive;"

      The Ballmer era gave us Windows XP and Windows 7, both far better than the monstrosity we are being force-fed now.

      I don't see MS as less vindictive. They've just changed their target from their competitors to their users. They're just as hostile and aggressive as ever, only now they're directing that aggression at the very customers they need to remain in business. Now they're incompetent AND vindictive.

      1. Captain DaFt

        Re: Microsoft: from vindictive to cack-handed...

        "The Ballmer era gave us Windows XP and Windows 7"

        Plus Windows ME and Vista, Linux FUD and the Business Software Alliance goon squad.

        Buuuut, we were always at war with Oceania, right? ☺

  14. roytrubshaw
    Linux

    Windows 10???

    What is this "Windows 10" of which you speak?

    Is it some kind of virus?

    Returns smugly to his Gnome 2 desktop -- what's this? Gnome 3? Aaaarrrggghhh--

  15. thondwe

    Linux "pushers" again

    The best thing that could happen to enable Linux on the desktop is to get MS Office on the desktop - Windows prevalence is about the applications not the OS.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      Re: Linux "pushers" again

      Well, either that or say Overwatch (natively, you can get banned for using WINE on Battle.net), enough to steal a professional gaming sponsorship or two.

    2. TVU Silver badge

      Re: Linux "pushers" again

      I would be surprised if the otherwise pragmatic Satya Nadella brought MS Office to Linux. However, you can use Softmaker Office, FreeOffice, WPS Office, OnlyOffice and MS' own free Office Online apps instead.

      1. Patrician

        Re: Linux "pushers" again

        None of the software you've listed has all the functionality of MS Office in one package.

        1. Sixtysix
          Stop

          Re: Linux "pushers" again

          True - but for well over 80% of my organisations users, something that delivered about 20% of the core functionality of Excel and Word would be FAR MORE than adequate...

          1. Patrician

            Re: Linux "pushers" again

            Agreed, Word and Excel compatibles would be okay for a lot of our customers too (they would have to be *very* compatible mind), however, there is no Outlook or Power Point and the Outlook compatibles (admittedly I've not looked at all Outlook compatibles) are lacking in some way or other whether it be a calendar or whatever.

          2. bombastic bob Silver badge
            Devil

            Re: Linux "pushers" again

            "something that delivered about 20% of the core functionality of Excel and Word would be FAR MORE than adequate"

            Libre Office manages that quite nicely. And runs on winders, too.

        2. 2+2=5 Silver badge

          Re: Linux "pushers" again

          > None of the software you've listed has all the functionality of MS Office in one package.

          Very true. Equally true is that I've never yet met a company that uses all the functionality of MS Office.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Linux "pushers" again

            "Very true. Equally true is that I've never yet met a company that uses all the functionality of MS Office."

            But they more often than not use ENOUGH. AND they tend to use the stuff that's unique to MS Office such as macros/code. Until someone can find a painless way to translate that code to LibreOffice, along with other complaints such as formatting gaffs, people won't be willing to jump since that code is what lets them get through the day.

    3. TechnicalBen Silver badge

      Re: Linux "pushers" again

      It is not about the applications.

      It is about consistency. First on the running of the application (by extension it's install). Secondly on the user interface.

      Linus and the likes generally have the user interface down. However 90% of people (I assume) are 100% invested in GUI being *exactly* the same. And most alternatives are 90-99% the same at best. People don't want to invest in "learning" the new GUI... unless tricked by the "new is better" next version of Windows/Office (where your already invested, but with Linux it was free, so can chuck it out... try telling your boss to chuck out that £/$300 office licence they wasted on a Ribbon GUI upgrade!).

      Linux also, while being great at installing programs and getting dependencies, is more likely to not like your particular audio/graphics/etc setup. Where as Windows seems to somehow blur over any of those problems (I'm not sure if it has them or not, but they seem less noticed) and things "just work".

      1. Updraft102 Silver badge

        Re: Linux "pushers" again

        "Linus and the likes generally have the user interface down. However 90% of people (I assume) are 100% invested in GUI being *exactly* the same."

        The same as what version, though? Windows doesn't even offer a GUI that is exactly the same as the previous version of Windows. One of the reasons I like Cinnamon on Mint so much is that it's more like Windows 7 than is any later version of Windows. MS is so determined to tack a phone interface on to the desktop, come Hell or high water...

  16. eJ2095

    Sod it

    time to dust off my old Amiga

    1. Captain DaFt

      Re: Sod it

      "time to dust off my old Amiga"

      Ugh, if you think Microsoft is a pain to deal with, try dealing with the half dozen or so* competing companies that allegedly support Amiga Software/hardware these days. It's enough to drive you to doing computing on clay tablets with cuneiform!

      *The number is always changing due to lawsuits, bankruptcies, buy outs, and just plain disappearing with with your money.

    2. Tejekion
      Thumb Up

      Re: Sod it

      Speaking of Amiga. I have bought a computer to turn it into a WinUAE Box. I even found and bought an external Floppy(There's one already instaled), and an External HD. Now if I could just make the screenmodes more authentic!

  17. JeffyPoooh Silver badge
    Pint

    Seems like a very good idea...

    Norton - clearly a very good idea

    McAfee - obviously a good idea

    Kaparskyitis - arguably a good idea

    AVG - Mostly Harmless, but still bothersome

    Etc.

  18. Anonymous South African Coward Silver badge

    Had Symantec Endpoint installed on a Win10 box. WIn10 updates itself, Symantec ***** itself, and won't run.

    So now you have to get an update from Symantec just to stay away from Ickdoze Defender...

    1. Kiwi Silver badge
      Megaphone

      Had Symantec Endpoint installed on a Win10 box. WIn10 updates itself, Symantec ***** itself, and won't run.

      How is that any different from the normal state of affairs?

      So now you have to get an update from Symantec just to stay away from Ickdoze Defender...

      Of the two, Defender is by far the better product.

      Symantec is just. Ug. No. If I find it on a machine I buy (not been a while but hey) the machine is either returned to vendor (though I would often check first) or formatted and built from a clean OS install. Preferably a new HDD, as once it's had that malware on it you cannot be sure that the drive firmware isn't infected.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        If you're that paranoid, should you not be concerned that your drive firmwares were infected at the factory from which there is no escape?

  19. Frank N. Stein

    Microsoft is lying. Windows 10 uninstalled Norton after a reboot, until I disabled Windows Defender. Then, Norton installed and has been working fine, ever since. Microsoft will probably attempt to enable Windows Defender in some future update, but if it does that and removes Norton, I will disable Windows Defender and reinstall Norton. Screw Microsoft.

    1. Hans 1 Silver badge
      Headmaster

      MS needs to know when it can upgrade the Windows 10 XPerience, you need to install a "readiness" update that checks hardware, software etc are expected to work with the new version.

      Now, prior to updating, it should say: Please update software x as the new Windows 10 version we are about to install will not work very well with this ... easy. I guess they do not want that, because it is a way to cling to the Windows 10 version you currently have.

      Uninstalling software without consent clearly falls under the Computer Misuse Act.

      Sue them to hell!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      That really teaches MS

      By installing something even worse!

      Sorry, Norton and other Virus scanners are low hanging fruit for jokes.

      1. Kiwi Silver badge

        Re: That really teaches MS

        Sorry, Norton and other Virus scammers are low hanging fruit for jokes.

        FTFY

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Buy an iMac.

    You'll never look back.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Buy an iMac.

      Indeed. Bought one today. 27in 5K screen. Just pulling all my data and applications from my 2012 MBP as I write this. Simplicity itself. Something that MS is woeful at.

      That screen is effing glorious.

      1. Sixtysix

        Re: Buy an iMac.

        As a (med/large) corporate resource?

        By choice? No chance.

        Those of us who have to try and manage collections of Apple products on a corporate network have personal knowledge of a new and particularly frustrating dimension of hell.

        Example from personal experience: We had 15 identical "professional" Apple products (from the same batch) operate in (at least) 4 utterly distinct ways in spite of the same setup/installs? Apple advice: return for replacement - but no help or explanation as to which ones were working "wrong" or why they chose to operate differently... utterly soul destroying experience.

        Not having any official Apple store within 150 - 300 miles of most of the users for the recommended "drop in replacement" just made life worse...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Buy an iMac.

        Migration from PC to Mac is easier than from Windows 7 to Windows 10. Nightmare.

  21. Howard Hanek Bronze badge
    Coat

    Strategic Thinking

    ......so hiring those North Koreans on H1B visas turned out to be not such a great idea eh?

  22. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

    I haven't got a great deal of sympathy for Kaspersky given how long it took them to get KAV to work with Windows 10.

    On Defender being bundled with the OS, it's responsible thing to do, just like IE, the user has a choice whether to install an alternative or not.

    Oh, and Netscape killed Netscape, or have we forgotten the vaguely threatening adverts telling people they had to start paying for continued use of their products?

    1. TechnicalBen Silver badge

      That was both a blessing and a curse. Blessing: Less friends becoming new customers to Kaspersky... and a curse: Me having to "Fix" all the existing Kaspersky installs...

      ... well, I would if I touched Win10.

  23. EnviableOne Bronze badge

    Mac is no solution their " it’s been built from the ground up with privacy and security in mind." slogan is a misnomer, it is just a PC with a different OS, that is now numerous enough for people to bother spending time writing or adapting viruses for it.

    I have considered the idea of switching the org to Kubuntu Desktop and CentOS/RHEL servers

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