back to article Windows 10 S: Good, bad, and how this could get ugly for PC makers

Tuesday’s launch of Windows 10 S, a cut-down version of the operating system designed for the education market, has raised some interesting questions about Microsoft’s ongoing efforts to hit Google and Apple where it hurts. Traditionally Microsoft and Apple have carved up the school user base between them. Apple gained an …

  1. AnthonyP69

    Thin Client anyone?

    If they are priced low enough they may become the new thin client for Citrix. Issue and forget!

    1. AMBxx Silver badge

      Re: Thin Client anyone?

      I'm always surprised those compute sticks haven't taken off in the education market. Saves carrying a screen around all the time (one less thing to break). Losing them is a problem, but if using cloud storage not the end of the world.

      1. Martin an gof Silver badge

        Re: Thin Client anyone?

        I'm always surprised those compute sticks haven't taken off in the education market. Saves carrying a screen around

        Because you still actually need a screen? What will you do, have dozens of monitors in each classroom?

        M.

    2. MyffyW Silver badge

      Re: Thin Client anyone?

      ...well I've heard worse suggestions. On a separate note I've cut-and-pasted the below phrase into my archives to refer to in ten years time:

      "an entire generation is going to grow up using Teams and seeing Slack as something management imposes once (or if) they get a job"

      Suspect it might be in mirth rather than sagely nodding my head.

  2. hplasm Silver badge
    Devil

    So...

    Can they run ChromeOS?

    1. Jonathan 27

      Re: So...

      ChromeOS uses a proprietary bios, so only if the manufacturer specifically enables it.

      1. rne247

        Re: So...

        Take a look at Neverware's Chromium OS fork. It can turn a crusty old (or new!) laptop into a Chromebook-like device. You can even boot from a USB drive if you want to.

  3. chivo243 Silver badge

    Apple still in Education?

    Please, Apple doesn't really support Education in the way it used to. iPads, next iFad please...

    Apple killed the Macbook Air 11" ! how stupid is that for education? What a perfect form for students that have to carry around their tech. It's early I'll stop now before I need my blood pressure meds.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Apple still in Education?

      They replaced it with the even lighter MacBook.

      1. P. Lee Silver badge

        Re: Apple still in Education?

        >They replaced it with the even lighter MacBook.

        I'm not sure that's a replacement. Replacing an i7 with SD card, thunderbolt and USB ports and maglink power with a system with a rubbish cpu with a single USB/charging combo?

        Everything is worse than it used to be. Apple have exited sanity, never mind education.

  4. Shadow Systems Silver badge

    MS is daft.

    For the amount that MS is asking for the low end version, I can go get a better one from their competition. A thousand dollars for four gigs of ram? Pull the other one, it has bells on.

    Marketing it as something for schools is laughable at best, utter batshit insane at worst. Most schools don't have the budget to deploy the IT infrastructure to handle a thousand students all pounding the servers at once, the bandwidth to support a thousand students all trying to check wiki for something, & all that is money they would rather spend on supplies like pencils, paper, & textbooks. If your school only has ten thousand left in the budget do they save it to buy supplies for a few months or buy *ten* of these laptops? I know which option my son's school would go for & it's NOT to buy laptops.

    He's a teacher & constantly struggling to balance needs (supplies) versus wants (technology), but when push comes to shove then the needs win hands down every time. You can always get the needs past the accountants if you try, but the tech takes MUCH more haggling, bargaining, & begging.

    MS has aimed MUCH too high for education (it's out of the price range of most kids) & are charging far too much for what you get. You can head over to *any* of their competition & buy a better machine for less money.

    MS seems to have a fondness for shooting itself in the feet...

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: MS is daft.

      Does MS's competition offer a 4:3 screen? No, sadly.

      1. SundogUK

        Re: MS is daft.

        Does a schoolkid need a 4:3 screen? No.

        1. Dave 126 Silver badge

          Re: MS is daft.

          I wouldn't say 'need', but a 4:3 screen is better suited to many school and college tasks than a 16:9 screen. I say that hoping that the classroom activities involve more than watching YouTube.

          The point was, the OP said he could get equivalent machines for less money... but that only holds true if one ignores the screen. How important aspect ratio is to you is a matter of personal preference, just as is the weight, the track pad quality, how noisy it is etc.

          It would be nice if laptops with screens other than 16:9 were available from more vendors so that one could then shop around on other criteria, such as price.

          1. Carlitos911

            Re: MS is daft.

            Yup, people always talk about the "identical specs" but *always* forget the bit in the laptop that you spend all day staring at.

            For USD 999 you cannot get any laptop with a screen that's even close to the one in the Surface Laptop. You might find some with 1980x1080 screens, but not only it that significantly lower res, it's also very unlikely that they're sRGB colour calibrated.

            Also, if people only bought stuff they need, our society would crumble in days. The Surface Laptop isn't designed to meet people's needs, it's designed to meet people's wants.

            Do I need one? Nope! Do I want one? Hell yeah! That burgundy looks very very sweet.

    2. 45RPM Silver badge

      Re: MS is daft.

      I’m delighted to see Microsoft take the high road in building hardware. For years, a major attraction of the Mac was that it was pretty much the only game in town if you wanted really high quality hardware. HP and Dell flirted with high quality machines, before dumping them in favour of shovelling poor quality shit again. If you wanted a high quality, well designed, PC then your only choice was boutique - at even higher prices than Apple charged, and very much harder to find.

      I do appreciate that some people don’t really care about a pricey, ‘quality’, well designed computer. They just want a cheap machine that will do the job. My concern here is that ‘cheap’ has to be paid for by someone - and that it’s usually the labourers in the sweatshop who end up bearing the cost. Even at the prices Apple charges, you really wouldn’t want to work in one of their factories (trust me on this!) - but, even so, the conditions are still better than the conditions in bargain basement laptop production lines.

      My hope is that people might begin to realise that you can’t actually buy a laptop for £300 - and that £800+ is actually a reasonable starting price, at least if you’d like the people who built the damn thing to be paid. Plus, I imagine that this new Microsoft laptop is as nice to use as it is to look at (and I think that it’s very nice to look at). Cheap laptops are never a pleasure to use. I also look forward to the day when the people who make our clothes, build our laptops and write our software get paid equitably.

      In the 1980s people expected to pay the equivalent of £800 in todays money for even quite a basic computer (ZX Spectrum, no storage or screen), and went on up to £6000 equivalent (for a basic IBM XT) and more. That was just what things cost (and you should see how much software was priced at!) Nowadays though, people want something, everything, for nothing.

      I understand that there’s a market for a very cheap computer, for schools, for people who can’t afford to pay more. And there’s a computer that fits the bill - and it isn’t made in a sweatshop either. It’s called Raspberry Pi - some assembly required, and don’t expect to play Counterstrike on it.

      You gets what you pays for.

    3. fajensen Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: MS is daft.

      I know which option my son's school would go for & it's NOT to buy laptops.

      Schools here (DK) would go for the shiny-shiny at every turn.

      MS has means and ways - the first one is that they could introduce a rental / leasing model for their computers to make them more "affordable", then on the back of that they can securitize the income stream from the rental into s bond structure to pull the income forward when they sell the bonds. They probably have everything in place from Office365.

      MS could lobby politicians on the "critical importance of business-oriented digital skill in today's marketplace", making it so that schools would be forced to buy digital devices with Office on them whatever the budget,

      Finally, MS could probably mange to get their hardware prices down a good bit on volume contracts. If they want the "hearts and minds" of the future, they could take a strategy of negotiating centrally rather than with individual schools on special pricing which look cheap. They come in high, so 40% off is a good deal for the county's central procurement office, not!?

      Now, why I believe Microsoft will fail is because they do not have the persistence to follow a strategy for 10-15 years. They just *have* to tinker and "revolutionise", after 5-6 years they will be *gagging* to do something that somehow invalidates all the previous work.

    4. Adair

      Re: MS is daft.

      There seems to be a misunderstanding here. TLDR version: 10S aimed at hardware spec, c.£150.

      QUOTE (from http://tinyurl.com/lzk2jjs - Guardian report):

      'Jeff Orr, research director for ABI Research, explained that the education market is tough to design for, with extensive requirements for durability, flexibility and affordability. Orr said: “Both Apple’s Mac laptops and Google-powered Chromebooks have offered a combination of hardware and software to keep Windows from being as dominant in education as it has become in the workplace. The affordability of Chromebooks and the benefits of cloud services has propelled the low-cost laptop use case even further.”

      It is here that Microsoft hopes its Windows 10 S and new education initiative will be able to make inroads where more expensive solutions have faltered against stiff competition. Industry partners include Acer, Asus, Dell, Fujitsu, HP, Samsung and Toshiba, producing Windows 10 S-compatible machines starting at $189 (£146).'

    5. Fatman Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: MS is daft.

      <quote>MS seems to have a fondness for shooting itself in the feet nuts...</quote>

      FTFY!!!!

    6. rne247

      Re: MS is daft.

      PanOS made it quite clear that the target market for Surface laptop is the student heading off to college or university.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: MS is daft.

      "MS is daft", lol, best title ever. Sums them up nicely.

    8. Japhy Ryder

      Re: MS is daft.

      Fortunately for MS, their competition is even dafter. I used to work for an org which bought 70 Surface Pro's for something like £600 a pop (yes,after the volume discount, someone must have been feeling rich). After 2 years, MS EOLed them. Core i5, 4MB, 128MB, perfectly usable piece of kit but IT policy mandated replacement if no vendor support. So, we asked all the usual suspects for samples to evaluate. Keystone Cops aren't even in the running. Couriers turned up to take back samples we hadn't received yet. Everybody we asked to evaluate them complained about keys being in the wrong place (US keyboards), the hideous colours, etc, etc. Despite all this nonsense, one or two of them had decent enough scores to consider buying so we asked them for prices. The response from all of them was "Oh no, we don't sell that anymore!" You might conclude that they weren't really interested in actually selling anything. Perhaps MS isn't either. Oh, and £50 for a stylus? You can get perfectly usable styli from Hong Kong for a tenner. £70 for a BT mouse ... don't get me started ...

  5. JTMILLER
    Gimp

    There's a market for it

    "Which kind of makes you wonder why the Surface team was here, at this education-friendly event, in the first place."

    You clearly haven't seen many schools in Australia, even the budget to midrange private schools often supply $1400 laptops for all students, I'd happily take a Surface Laptop (Upgraded to the full Edu edition) over these Acer's I currently have to support!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There's a market for it

      So it's the "Surface Laptop". As opposed to the "Surface Book" or "Surface Pro", which are also laptops. No room for confusion there.

      I suppose it's no worse than Macbook / Macbook Air / Macbook Pro.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Linux

    Linux ticks all of the boxes.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Linux

      Not for MS Office it doesn't....

      If you use Linux then you don't need to pay for a Surface Book/Pro there are far cheaper alternatives than the MS solution....

      Unless of course you are preparing the future Anonymi....

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Linux

        MS Office is absolute s***e, on Windows and Mac. There's no must-have improvement since Office 2000. Can't believe they're still getting away with selling it.

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Re: Linux

          "There's no must-have improvement since Office 2000."
          Outlook has improved quite a bit, but then I would also argue Word has been unimproved.

          1. dmacleo

            Re: Linux

            outlook against an exchange server is where the real differences show up.

            outlook for pure imap/pop...not much different than older versions.

            when people talk about office they often overlook the outlook/exchange integration.

            fwiw running a mix of win10 and linux mint here, and evolution mail with ews plugin working really well with exchange 2013 server.

      2. TVU Silver badge

        Re: Linux

        "Not for MS Office it doesn't...."

        ...which is why I have Softmaker Office Professional for Linux which has excellent Microsoft compatibility (the free WPS Office and FreeOffice are worth having a look at too).

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Linux

      Does it?

      Please elaborate.

      I see no simple global admin.

      I see no simple set / install and configure.

      I see no integration with Office 365

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Linux

        I see no integration with Office 365

        Who in education would want Slurp slurping all the students information? Unless they are working for the NSA that is.

        1. LDS Silver badge

          "Who in education would want Slurp slurping all the students information"

          You missed Google is under investigation for selling children data? It looks most schools didn't factor it when the got Chromebooks...

        2. Carlitos911

          Re: Linux

          Well, they don't seem to have a problem with Google doing it, so why not Microsoft?

          And if you believe the NSA doesn't have access to all the Google user's data, I have a nice bridge I'd like to sell you.

      2. Avatar of They Silver badge
        Meh

        Re: Linux

        Why would you want office 365 integration, its ruddy awful? And config is easy if you know what you are doing. The problem is few people know what they are doing because they grew up either with apple of M$

        We have thin clients running Linux and it is locked down nicely and rolled out by the network, all sorted. And no office 365. :)

      3. hplasm Silver badge
        Windows

        Re: Linux

        "I see no simple global admin.

        I see no simple set / install and configure.

        I see no integration with Office 365"

        And so, on to the bad points?

    4. Jonathan 27

      Re: Linux

      And yet Linux market share is down. Care to explain why?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Linux

        "And yet Linux market share is down. Care to explain why?"

        Because cretins demand explainations over experiences.

        People would rather be sold something than simply venture out and try something. The same reason droves of people trudge to the same tourist spots on holiday every year.

        People follow people. Thats why people on flexi hours still start at 9 and finish at 5.

        People are dicks.

        Thats why Linux market share is down.

        Linux is exactly where it needs to be, those of us that use it, love it and we don't care what anyone thinks.

        I use Linux because I tried it and it was awesome. Nobody sold it to me, nobody evangelised about it to me...I just tried it.

        To a true tech aficionado Windows is the Ikea furniture of the OS world. Linux is the fine hand crafted mahogany furniture of the OS world.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: those of us that use it, love it and we don't care what anyone thinks.

          Is that why you swarm all over any article about ms going on and on about it? Because you don't care what anyone else thinks?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: those of us that use it, love it and we don't care what anyone thinks.

            "Is that why you swarm all over any article about ms going on and on about it? Because you don't care what anyone else thinks?"

            Its not about caring what anyone thinks, its about correcting misinformation and bringing attention to viable alternatives.

            Us penguins wouldn't be standing up for our principles if we didnt do this.

            I cant speak for the majority, but I personally care about your privacy, rights and freedom whether or not you're smart enough to realise they're being eroded.

            I see MS users in the same way Ibsee the emaciated kids on oxfam adverts. They didnt choose to be born into a poor country to starve to death. Similarly a lot of Microsoft users didnt really choose to use MS products. They were taught how to use them at school and have them foisted on them in the workplace and due to this lifelong brow beating they struggle to venture out and try the alternatives.

            I will never force anyone to use Linux (or whatever the best alternative of the day is), but will pity them if they don't even try it.

            Us penguins are out there waiting to help (well most of us, fuck the elitists) but we can't help unless people decide they want to help themselves. Until then all we can do is highlight that there are alternatives.

            That said, im not against MS products existing in the education space but I am against them being the ONLY products in a schools IT arsenal.

            When I was at school many many years ago we had a variety of kit we were taught to use...IT lessons were balanced. These days they arent.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: I see MS users in the same way Ibsee the emaciated kids on oxfam adverts.

              Jesus, could you patronise that up a bit for me?

              There really is no height restriction on your horse at all.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: I see MS users in the same way Ibsee the emaciated kids on oxfam adverts.

                Patronising? I dont think so.

                Hows the Microsoft stockholm syndrome down there?

                1. Geoffrey W Silver badge

                  Re: I see MS users in the same way Ibsee the emaciated kids on oxfam adverts.

                  RE: "Patronising? I dont think so"

                  How about insulting then?

                  Blimey! You make me want to dump my Linux boxes and go completely windows just to show it wont hurt me one little bit. I also want to poke you in your smug, patronising, silly little penguin eye and make you squawk and flap your feeble little wings, you feathery freak, you.

        2. Geoffrey W Silver badge

          Re: Linux

          RE: "People are dicks. Thats why Linux market share is down."

          So could you please get your fellow penguins to stop behaving like dicks then, and putting people off. Ta!

        3. dbtx Bronze badge
          Trollface

          Re: Linux

          "...is the acquisition rights to entire forests of finer lumber-bearing trees and a collection of woodworking tools (with all mahogany handles) of the OS world."

          fifty.

        4. Kiwi Silver badge

          Re: Linux

          I use Linux because I tried it and it was awesome. Nobody sold it to me, nobody evangelised about it to me...I just tried it.

          Same. Tried a BSD first and it didn't fit so I tried Linux. I've also tried many other OS's. The only ones that I truly don't like are Win ME, 8, 8.1 and 10. Even Fista doesn't quite reach my "to horrible to live" level.

          Also, I have a number of older friends who also have tried Linux and love it. Comments like "I never knew my computer could be so easy to use" and "I never knew this computer could run so fast" and "It's great, I don't have any malware problems any more" among many other praises. I did know one guy who preferred Windows over Linux, but then he tried to kill himself in one of the worst ways imaginable and spends his nights in a psych ward. And no, sorry, not joking.

          It's easier than Windows to configure, far far easier and faster to install (done in 10 minutes, 20 mins if you have much older install media and want it fully updated), so much more powerful than Windows will ever be (but then, not everyone needs a V8 - a nifty-fifty is enough for some people!) and with a much greater range of software than MS will ever allow. Except games, which is a problem as we all know that games are the most important thing in the world.

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: Linux

            "with a much greater range of software than MS will ever allow"
            I really, really wish that were true, but it isn't. I spent a very pleasant 18 months using Cinnamon Mint as my primary OS. It is indeed wonderful. But my main applications are Windows or Mac OS. They won't run on Linux. There are no acceptable Linux substitutes. Until the major software houses get their act together, or the Linux community gets serious about developing professional software, Linux as a desktop OS is doomed to remain a niche. This saddens me greatly...

            1. Kiwi Silver badge

              Re: Linux

              I really, really wish that were true, but it isn't. I spent a very pleasant 18 months using Cinnamon Mint as my primary OS. It is indeed wonderful. But my main applications are Windows or Mac OS.

              I said "greater range". You may have a specific use case for programs that require Windows where you cannot find suitable Linux equivalents. But in reality most people don't actually fall under that (otherwise why is desktop use being replaced by tablets and chromebooks, the majority of which don't run any MS software?).

              There's still stuff I can easily do on Linux there I haven't found a suitable Windows replacement. Running secure servers is a start. Same for running a browser secure enough for my needs (which aren't exactly great, but while I have no qualms about my browsing history being seen by government (though it will make some of them nervous ;) ) I do have significant qualms about any private company doing so (but I trust my ISP, for now).

              If you're talking Office, well I hear there's a browser-based version and IME 2010 and earlier happily install on Linux simply be double-clicking on the Setup program on the CD (or install or whatever it is on there), haven't tried anything later but I haven't had to - very few people need MS office when they can get away with Libre or Open. Most people I deal with are home or SME so there's no fancy spreadsheets or other fudliness to worry about.

              There are some programs that may run a bit more nicely on Windows, or only on Windows, but that's not what most people use these days. (and again, for those who're going to jump up and down about what people do with their computers, look at the stats that're showing tablets and mobes getting used more than desktops or laptops).

              1. Pompous Git Silver badge

                @ Kiwi (was Re: Linux)

                "I said "greater range". You may have a specific use case for programs that require Windows where you cannot find suitable Linux equivalents. "
                I have several specific case uses where there appears to be no Linux equivalent, or the Linux "equivalent" is shite. Unless you know of a source that alternativeTo doesn't know about. This has nothing to do with MS Office or web browsers.

  7. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Version 1.0 Silver badge

      Re: Blanket Laptops.....

      If you're a kid in school with a runny nose then fabric is handy because you can wipe your snotty finger on the back of the machine.

      Gross? Yes, I see it all the time with 5th graders.

      When you have class after class moving through the computer lab all day long, it only takes one snotty kid to spread their germs through the school.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. Carlitos911

          Re: Blanket Laptops.....

          Alcantara is what is commonly called plastic.

          Or so says Wikipedia: 68% polyester and 32% polyurethane.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Blanket Laptops.....

        ... it only takes one snotty kid to spread their germs through the school. ...

        Or a quick Pr0nHub run to make that computer Yours, Untouchable Forever!

      3. Field Commander A9
        Big Brother

        Re: Blanket Laptops.....

        " I see it all the time with 5th graders."

        What? Your schools give $999 computers to 5th graders? You damn capitalism pigs!

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: Blanket Laptops.....

      Maybe they'll arrange for it to be unzipped and run through the washing machine.

      Mine's the one that's whiter than white.

    3. hplasm Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Blanket Laptops.....

      "Did anyone else think of the saying, "stick like sh!t to a blanket" - could be some issues."

      Wouldn't wipe my arse on it...

    4. nijam

      Re: Blanket Laptops.....

      > ...this is to make the laptop more durable...

      Actually it's to keep the laptop warm, thereby creating a hospitable environment for a whole ecosystem of bugs to thrive in.

    5. aptanet

      Re: Blanket Laptops.....

      I was picturing the old 70s Ford Cortinas, etc. with their peeling vinyl roof looking old and sad very quickly. Either that or coffee stains that can't be easily cleaned off, although I guess for the larger spill it may well soak it up before it gets to the innards.

    6. Polardog

      Re: Blanket Laptops.....

      Those spills from exotica videos might leave some yucky stains!

    7. rne247

      Re: Blanket Laptops.....

      There's clearly some misreporting / misunderstanding going on here. Microsoft is targeting the Surface laptop at college/university students. Mind you, they have plenty of unhygienic habits too ;-)

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The other secret source for the OS is...

    The underground river where Dr Phibes was last seen before he rose again...?

    It's 'sauce', not 'source'. Secret sauce, as in KFC's herbs and spices, Some Famous Dude's Ranch Dressing, and the magic formula for Coca-Cola. I know this, for I used to work for Lucent Technologies. and it was a regular on the BS Bingo sheet whenever Pat Russo addressed the nation.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: The other secret source for the OS is...

      It's also to administer and not to administrate.

      Article published too quickly to impress MS for the invitation to the event, methinks.

      1. P. Lee Silver badge

        Re: The other secret source for the OS is...

        >It's also to administer and not to administrate.

        Perhaps the author was thinking ahead.

        "What should I do with this MS system? I'll defenestrate it!"

      2. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: The other secret source for the OS is...

        "It's also to administer and not to administrate."
        I take it you're not a big fan of the Oxford English Dictionary then...

        1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

          Re: The other secret source for the OS is...

          The OED merely documents usage. It doesn't usually point out where that usage is an abomination to native speakers.

          1. Geoffrey W Silver badge

            Re: The other secret source for the OS is...

            "Administer" | "Administrate" is really an abomination? This thread is going downhill fast...

          2. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: The other secret source for the OS is...

            "The OED merely documents usage. It doesn't usually point out where that usage is an abomination to native speakers."
            George Bernard Shaw was a superb writer IMHO. YMMV of course...

            "What was formerly called ‘real property’ is replaced by ordinary personal property and common property administrated by the State."
            On Rocks 1934.

            Of course Shaw was an Irishman rather than a proper Englishman.

    2. Kiwi Silver badge

      Re: The other secret source for the OS is...

      No doubt many have beaten me to this but..

      It's 'sauce', not 'source'.

      It's source. Like source code. Like MS keeps secret. And like "secret sauce", you don't really know what goes into it, and probably would never go near it again if you did.

  9. MJI Silver badge

    7 is better

    My sons school uses it, triple boot with a Penguin and part eaten apple.

    They use the flag waving OS all the time and never use the other two.

  10. Mage Silver badge
    Coffee/keyboard

    Oh dear

    Pity that MS have forgotten GUI design principals and it's not more like Win98 / XP / Win7 (without the Aero garbage, active desktop etc).

    Explorer is terrible.

    1. AMBxx Silver badge

      Re: Oh dear

      Wasn't it Windows 98 that introduced the 'do I click once or twice', hover to select problems? As ever with Microsoft, it's 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: Oh dear

        > 'do I click once or twice', hover to select problems? As ever with Microsoft, it's 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

        My dad just hammers the left mouse button repeatedly over an icon then swears at the computer until a few instances of the document open up.

        My educational computers have ranged from three mouse buttons (Acorn, something Unix-y) to one (Mac), my personal mice from two buttons to lots.

      2. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: Oh dear

        1 step forward 2 steps back

        FTFY

        (from a one time MS fan)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Oh dear

      >Explorer is terrible.

      Yep, bag'o shite and can't hold a candle to Dolphin. I utterly despise filexplorer.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        File Explorer is terrible.

        I recently copied several GB's of files to a USB Stick in Windows 10, that I'd been previously using on an Apple macbook.

        Apple special create index folders starting with a '.'

        When you drag files over to the USB Stick say, marked as drive G:, the first thing it does is expand the drive, so just as you drop it, the drive expands, then you end up dropping it into the wrong folder.

        The other thing it does is move drive column items up and down around as you hoover over it with the files in hand over the drive list column.

        I dropped (moved) the files into drive G: (USB Drive), rather than appearing in the root folder, they all ended up in this .dot folder. When I came back to the USB I though I had a virus as I couldn't find the files at all, but eventually searching, found them in this macOS created folder.

        Whoever wrote the code for File Explorer has never worked with files in their life.

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Oh dear

      The other requirement for education is the ability to run ancient educational software written for 98~XP and full virtual CD drive support, so you don't need the physical CD in the drive...

  11. JTMILLER

    "Which kind of makes you wonder why the Surface team was here, at this education-friendly event, in the first place."

    You clearly haven't seen many schools in Australia, even the budget to midrange private schools often supply $1400 laptops for all students, I'd happily take a Surface Laptop (Upgraded to the full Edu edition) over these Acer's I currently have to support!

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "over these Acer's I currently have to support!"

      If you're working in a school, please ask one of the English teachers to explain how to use the apostrophe. It would avoid your setting a bad example to the pupils.

    2. timrichardson

      My niece goes to a Catholic secondary school in Albury: they switched to Chromebooks a few years ago. I can't see why they won't catch on here; the Windows environment my son puts up with at his primary school is horrible.

  12. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    For college kids Apple still has the better offer

    Apple's MacBook might look like a toy but you can see that yet again Apple understands the market better than MS.

    As for Windows S: it's not much of a secret that Google is merging ChromeOS and Android so that the world of offline apps will soon be available to those who want them: outside the US one doesn't tend to hear much about the Chromebooks.

    1. WylieCoyoteUK

      Re: For college kids Apple still has the better offer

      Actually, quite a lot of schools in the UK now use Chromebooks, especially primary schools.

      Those that don't use iPads of course, but some do use both.

      1. ridley

        Re: For college kids Apple still has the better offer

        With the funding crisis in schools I suspect that more and more schools will go Google.

        My school have calculated that they can save £100,000 per year by going Google, that sort of saving is hard to dismiss when the only other choice is to drop a subject from the curriculum or increase class sizes, again.

        Of course it does help that Google Suite for Education is pretty damn good, far better than what we have now. I think it is superb as an educational tool.

        1. DougS Silver badge

          Re: For college kids Apple still has the better offer

          Now if only some big country would have the balls to pass a law protecting kids from having that data stolen. Then we'll see just how altruistic Google really is with their push of Chrome into education.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: For college kids Apple still has the better offer

          I see a bright future for Google in UK classrooms too.

          Advantages:

          1. pure-play cloud apps and a functioning authorization/auhentication that can do most tasks well and that avoids config data and user-data being stored on the client too much. Comnined with a popular fast-wake-up.

          2. As cloud-apps are becoming more popular their power can be appreciated. WeVideo, for example, is not free, but a lot cheaper than all the tech-support needed on other solutions. Students that like apps can seamlessly try things on private accounts. MS ans Apple will invariably try to lock schools in to hardware+OS+support-contracts that will largely exclude each other and the rising number of chromebooks.

          3. With Win and Apple still locking users in to their platforms Google-apps run on Android, Chromebooks, Linux/Win and MAC PCs. Parents with any type of wallet can live with it.

          4. Particularly Win but also Linux and MAC had the image of providing "easy" alternatives to expensive solutions. But with cloud-solutions slowly getting ore and more standardized interfaces and APIs the cloud may start providing much less messy approaches. Using Snap in the cloud with an interface to an Arduino or R/Pi may become more popular in classrooms than having all these updates-requiring installs on PCs.

          5. Competition is allowed from Neverware and from PC, Linux and Apple-computers with modern browsers (FF, Opera, Chromium, Vivaldi, Chrome etc.) so the risks are limited.

          6. With most data centralised pupils can much more easily backup at home at the end of their schooling.

          7. Although it is possible to achieve higher security standards the chromebooks are encrypted, not vulnerable to malware, sync well etc. services that often have to be paid for separately with the others and then maintained and serviced with high levels of expertise//training/cost.

          Disadvantages:

          1. Lock in to Google to some extent. Google is much easier to extract the info from. You can download whole folder-structures as ZIP-files. leaves competition far behind.

          2. Privacy concerns. You can have these with others as well. List them.

          3. Possible legal concerns about ownership of the data and where it is stored and gets accessed from. Seems a much bigger concern for paid employees/staff etc. then for pupils.

          If I had a school I'd certainly consider going google for the enormous savings.

  13. Matt_payne666

    Windows RT???

    nice looking laptop... £1000 pricey, but not crazy compared to an XPS13, Macbook, etc...

    The OS is a bit odd though, Focused on school owned and managed, Metro is hard enough in a school environment and while there are store apps, nothing we use in any of our schools is available! (excluding office, which isnt a metro app, but like RT will come installed)

    If aimed at student owned demographic, then again, its gonna be a hard sell - no itunes for a start!

    Nice hardware, but leave windows with the usual versions! no need to add another crippled OS!

    1. Baldrickk Silver badge

      Re: Windows RT???

      It's another £45 to upgrade to the full (Pro) version of the OS according to the article.

      This is looking like an attractive peice of hardware for a new laptop, whether I keep Windows on it or replace it with a Linux OS, though the fabric does seem to be an odd choice, I can see it getting very dirty, very quickly, with just old skin flaking off your wrists, yet alone any other source of grime.

      I can see this being more aimed at University level students - with either a part time job or student loans to afford the HW.

      1. Not also known as SC
        Headmaster

        Re: Windows RT???

        "It's another £45 to upgrade to the full (Pro) version of the OS according to the article."

        Is the Pro version Windows 10 Pro or is it a modified version of Windows S? Am I also right to suppose that even though the machine comes with Office 365 you'll need to pay on top for a subscription?

      2. timrichardson

        Re: Windows RT???

        The upgrade to full Windows will be free initially, informed by the Windows RT debacle. So mislead consumers will be mollified, this time without refunds. But it makes you wonder what the point of the exercise is, since once updated to full Windows, Windows Store and Universal apps will be as irrelevant as normal, and the laptop will be just another laptop.

    2. LDS Silver badge

      Re: Windows RT???

      I don't think this $999+ model will come with Windows 10S...

      MS PRs look to have been able to generate a lot of confusion presenting an high-end model together a low-end OS and its devices. I guess it will be low-end W10S devices that could be upgraded to Pro for $45 - to better sell them outside schools (were a locked down OS makes much more sense).

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Offline

    A computer that can be used offline? That's fucking revolutionary.

    1. Updraft102 Silver badge

      Re: Offline

      "A computer that can be used offline? That's fucking revolutionary."

      In this "cloud first" era, it is. Kind of. Maybe.

      The first commercial computer systems were mainframe setups, with a single computer being used by many people at once via terminals. The terminals were nothing more than appliances to connect to the computer; without it, they were useless.

      Then came the personal computer and the decentralized/distributed computation model. Unlike the terminal, the PC could keep right on functioning even if it was disconnected from the network, because it was the computer, not just an interface for one. That was a real innovation! The PC and its decentralized model democratized computing, as the personal computer did, in fact, live up to its name. It was cheaper, easier, and better than the old model, and it meant that individuals and businesses too small to have afforded a mainframe were now able to benefit from computers as much as big corporations. For those big enough to afford mainframes, PCs represented freedom and flexibility that could never have existed in the centralized computing model.

      Of course, after a while, the "out of the box" marketing people began to want a new "paradigm" (quotation marks around the popular buzzwords that sounded really cool but meant nothing). Now the new, formerly innovative PC was the status quo... so now "innovation" meant doing something else just for the sake of doing something else, and we had the "thin client." That was supposed to revolutionize computing once again, even though it was abandoning personal computing for an even older idea. Fortunately, it never really gained much steam during the 90s; we still stayed with PCs.

      So here we are now, a few decades down the road from the thin-client hype, and again it's being pushed as the next great thing. Hooray for webapps! It's just a more graphical version of the same-old mainframe and terminal model as before, but don't rain on the parade by telling anyone it's the same old thing we had 40 years ago, before something better came along! Just throw the word "cloud" in at every opportunity, and you'll have yourself a winner!

      Once again, endpoints will be reduced to rendering content processed elsewhere (as with the Chromebook). If it can't access the net to get that content, it's not of any use. Progress?

      So now we have Microsoft claiming that Windows is a cloud service and not a product, but the version of Windows that's meant to compete with ChromeOS is now being touted as having the benefit of being designed from the ground up for working offline (in other words, without the cloud), unlike ChromeOS, whose very name tells us that it is an operating system and not a cloud service, though it's not very useful without the cloud.

      This is that Microsoft innovation we keep hearing about. They can keep throwing their corporate-speak buzzwords at each other for a while, thoroughly convinced that the more of those buzzwords that are flying around, the better the idea is, but one day someone's going to notice that the emperor's new clothes don't exist, and the bubble will burst-- as they always do.

      One way or another, what MS is doing right now will be written about extensively in future business administration textbooks.

    2. timrichardson

      Re: Offline

      Like a plough pulled by a horse. And about as useful.

      I just had three weeks in Java, much of it far from big cities. This is a country of about $4K GDP per person (Java would be higher taken on its own). 4G coverage almost everywhere. As every day goes by, the relevance of offline capabilities diminishes further and further. In Indonesia there are thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of businesses which run off mobile phones apps (including payments), so the traditional computer is fading away. This is an odd move by Microsoft, I can't believe it is getting much focus from senior management.

      1. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: Offline

        "Like a plough pulled by a horse. And about as useful."
        You've obviously never used a breast plough , or ploughed with a horse.

        Note that in the video the ploughman is working soft soil, not turf. I have a neighbour who has footage of a peasant in The People's Paradise ploughing up grassland with a breast plough in the 1960s. I'm willing to bet that guy would have given his eye teeth to possess a horse and turnwrest plough.

      2. DropBear Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Offline

        DropBear Thought Process, slow-mo verbose version:

        "I just had three weeks in [a widely-loathed cross-platform programming language]..."

        Hmmm, doesn't compute. Oh, wait...

        "I just had three weeks in [a delicious black caffeinated beverage]..."

        Ah, I see... no, wait, it still doesn't compute. Hold on...

        "I just had three weeks in [a short, hooded Sandcrawler-dwelling munchkin]..."

        Okay seriously WTF - and even the spelling is wrong. Unless... stand by... processing...

        "I just had three weeks in [a rarely-mentioned geographic location]..."

        ...oh. Yeah, that fits... *sound of cooling fans slowly ramping down*

  15. dajames Silver badge

    Discounts ...

    From the article:

    The base spec model is $999 (£780) and prices only go up from there. Which kind of makes you wonder why the Surface team was here, at this education-friendly event, in the first place.

    I'd say Microsoft were there to get a toe in the door. They want to get the next generation used to using Microsoft products and Microsoft software, so they have to be ready to produce "educational" products.

    They can't give these products low up-front prices, because if they do the educational products will be seen as a cheap way to get a home/business machine, and the (profits on the) rest of the Surface range will suffer ... but they can certainly offer massive educational discounts to bona fide educational establishments who want to buy in bulk.

    1. oldcoder

      Re: Discounts ...

      I understand the entire Surface range has already had a 28% drop in sales...

      Not much left to "suffer".

      1. LDS Silver badge

        Re: Discounts ...

        Most buyers are probably waiting for the Surface 5 line. The 4 is quite old now, and despite the discounts, if you're not in a hurry to buy one you are waiting for the new models.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Discounts ...

          "The 4 is quite old now, and despite the discounts, if you're not in a hurry to buy one you are waiting for the new models."

          When this announcement was being trailed I assumed this was going to be an attempt to flog off all the unsold stock to the education market.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Yes, they're copying Google & Apple

    But, they don't want you to upgrade to pro, their Apple copy is 30% of developers revenue from store sales and the Google copy is harvesting lemmings data and selling it. Upgrading to pro reduces both these plays.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    Nice hardware...

    The hardware looks great, and I can see it earning a rightful place in bespoke Coffee spots everywhere - MacBooks are starting to get a bit passé now. It'll do quite well in schools too - after all it's every middle class earnest parent's dream that little Alfie and Amelia don't get outdone in the laptop stakes by Josh and Evie from next door.

    Just such a shame it runs Windows.

  18. joeldillon

    'Schools that don’t have a campus-wide Wi-Fi network aren’t that keen on Chromebooks, for good reason. While it’s possible to use some Google apps offline, they aren’t great and so for the non-US school population Google has made few inroads.'

    Ummm is wifi technology unavailable to the rest of the world's schools for some reason?! I'm pretty sure it's a thing over here in the UK for example.

    1. mark l 2 Silver badge

      How many US schools still don't have WiFi coverage over their campus?

      It has been over 10 years since i worked in schools but even then most of them had WiFi networks. Perhaps some US schools made with lead lined walls to absorb all the stray gunfire.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Windows 7 Starter all over again, didn't sell last time and won't sell this time.

    1. johnnyblaze

      Win7 Starter all over again.

      Or Windows RT, or Windows 10 Education Edition. Take your pick, they've all tanked. Don't see Win10 S being any different (maybe 'S' stands for 'Sad' or even 'Suckers').

  20. johnnyblaze

    Give one of these to the average UK schoolkid for 10 minutes, then you'll see how good they are. Schools get through a stupid amount of kit because kids just destroy/steal/abuse it all, which is why it needs to be cheap, but still as robust a possible. Surface Pens, if schools used them, would last about 5 secs before being trousered, and those VR/AR headsets, don't even get me started.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Not just kids. I had one CEO who was so hard on kit we gave up and got him a Panasonic Toughbook.

      Underpowered, weighed a ton and cost a fortune - but could survive anything,

      Rest of the C suite decided that wanted one of these "military spec" laptops as well.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        CEO ... got him a Panasonic Toughbook.

        Underpowered,...

        Rest of the C suite decided that wanted one of these "military spec" laptops as well.

        It's unlikely that any of them were going to do anything that would have caused them to notice the underpowered bit.

  21. JoeCool
    Childcatcher

    education SALES

    1. I find it incongruous that locking down a pc, and preventing exploration is seen as a feature, in an educational environment.

    2. Since this is such a blatant future mindshare land grab on the part of MS et al., I wonder why the schools aren't simply getting an upfront pay-off and free hardware. Low standards for getting used is not a good lesson for school kids.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: education SALES

      You go to school to complete the requirements of standardised curriculum key stage achievement levels in the correct order as quietly and conveniently as possible - learning has nothing to do with it

    2. DropBear Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: education SALES

      Replace "education" with "hammering in of carefully selected arbitrary trivia and officially sanctioned social norms by using as large a hammer and as much brute force as it takes", and suddenly it will seem a lot less incongruous.

  22. Jonathan 27

    Windows 10 S makes the most sense on something like an HP Stream, maybe it will let them shave a few bucks off the price and it's a device for basic operations. Being able to run Windows Store Apps plus a web browser isn't a bad value proposition if the device is $200.

    1. timrichardson

      Microsoft set benchmarks: it has to compete with Chrome OS in start up times, etc. The HP Stream can't.

  23. Philippe

    Stuck on Edge

    One of the "feature" of Windows 10S is that you cannot set a preferred browser or a preferred search engine.

    I feel for those kids having to use M$ Edge and searching stuff using M$ Bing.

    Talk about being bullied at school.

    1. Teiwaz Silver badge

      Re: Stuck on Edge

      One of the "feature" of Windows 10S is that you cannot set a preferred browser or a preferred search engine.

      It's a 'feature' alright, a positive boon for MS Marketing - they get to increase the usage stats of their latest 'golden child' browser and their search engine usage with no other competing options.

      Sod all use to their users though - more of a bug from the users perspective.

    2. timrichardson

      Re: Stuck on Edge

      I just can't imagine an IT teacher telling people they have locked off the kids from Google. Parents are going to be negative about that.

    3. Kiwi Silver badge

      Re: Stuck on Edge

      I feel for those kids having to use M$ Edge and searching stuff using M$ Bing.

      When you search for stuff on Bing, does it show results from within the last 5 years, or is it as outdated as Bing maps?

      (Actually very surprised. Just checked - Bing now shows a suburb where it used to show a school. Last year it still showed the school. The school was demolished to make way for the suburb in 2010 or earlier. At least they show the houses, though looking at the state of the ground I guess it shows the houses circa 2011, so only 4 years behind Google!)

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Forced to use Edge and Bing

    No thanks....

    1. Rattus Rattus

      Re: Forced to use Edge and Bing

      What a horrible thought. They can go Bing themselves.

  25. Planty Bronze badge
    FAIL

    All the problems of windows 10

    None of the advantages of a Chromebook.

    I'm seeing none of the advantages of a Chromebook (aside from headline grabbing hardware cost, which looks like nobody is actually going to hit). These don't have Chromebook bulletproof security (read-only runtime, signed boot), nor the 2 second boot time, nor the 10hr battery life, nor the zero maintenance either..

    Yet again, Microsoft having no real answer, and just throwing some bodged up offering out there to see if anything sticks.

  26. hutcheson

    Beer snobs...probably have chrome rims on their double-wides....

  27. Mikel

    Bing Is Not Google

    And on Windows 10 S, Bing is not optional.

    That's DOA already.

  28. rne247

    Let's not kid ourselves...

    Windows 10s isn't a stripped-down version of Windows. I wish it was!

    I've yet to explore the option, but I'm pretty sure Windows 10 Pro can be restricted to Store apps by configuring Group Policy. Having said that, Windows 10S is clearly a stepping stone towards a legacy-free version of Windows.

    I suspect Microsoft will take another step in this direction when it ships Office (Centennial Edition?), and then another when Windows ships on ARM.

    We all need a nudge to keep moving forward, and Microsoft has customers that have almost taken root. That suited the company years ago, but today it's a millstone around its neck.

    1. Kiwi Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: Let's not kid ourselves...

      We all need a nudge to keep moving forward, and Microsoft has customers that have almost taken root. That suited the company years ago, but today it's a millstone around its neck.

      Why? If your IT infrastructure lets your workers do their job with as much efficiency as they can, why change? Why "we all need a nudge to keep moving forward"? Why is functional technology a "millstone"?

  29. Walter Bishop Silver badge
    IT Angle

    Windows 10 S and Microsoft’s ongoing efforts to hit Google

    "Tuesday’s launch of Windows 10 S .. has raised some interesting questions about Microsoft’s ongoing efforts to hit Google and Apple where it hurts."

    How about making Edge the default browser and hacking Windows 10 S such that the default browser cannot be changed. Then making the false claim that doing so would break cloud apps.

    1. Kiwi Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: Windows 10 S and Microsoft’s ongoing efforts to hit Google

      Then making the false claim that doing so would break cloud apps.

      Speaking of false claims :

      "By exclusively using apps in the Windows Store and ensuring that you browse safely with Microsoft Edge, Windows 10 S keeps you running fast and secure day in and day out. "

      Edge? Safe? MS product secure? Fast? The only thing secure about MS stuff is their grip on your data.. And maybe their grip on the funny cola... Gotta be something in their drink supply if people there actually believe this crap!

  30. timrichardson

    Fundamental contradictions

    Windows RT and Windows Phone failed because there were no apps. Microsoft had a grand strategy: we will offer all these users + desktop users as Universal App customers. But one by one this fell away: Windows RT and Windows Phone failed, and Windows 8's draconian effort to force Universal apps failed too. Now, Microsoft is trying again, but without Phone. So customers who understand this will be reluctant to engage. So reluctant, that Microsoft says you can turn it into full Windows for free, and they all will, which means there is still little incentive for developers. Microsoft needs a base of captive users who will get Windows S deployed without them being able to choose, and hopefully that market will be enough to kickstart interest in Windows Store apps, because customers are never going to voluntarily spend $1000 on a laptop that probably on balance does less than a Chromebook. Microsoft will fail; the barriers to success are even greater than they were at the time of Windows RT: not only does Microsoft have less to offer, but Chrome OS is now close to dominant in the only niche which gives Microsoft any chance of success, plus sooner or later Android apps will be viable (I guess within 12 months). At which point Microsoft is selling a more expensive, vastly inferior solution which it can only sell be giving customers a free or low cost escape route. Above all, it's hard to see what the incentives for Microsoft are. It's a low margin laptop with a low margin OS. The only thing it can do is drive sales to the Windows store, which makes margin for Microsoft, at the expense of application developers using traditional sales channels. There is almost no angle from which this makes much sense to anyone.

    If in fact Microsoft hopes that this will expose the future generation of users to Teams to kill Slack, as the article says, they must be terrified at what Chromebooks are doing to Office.

  31. Rob Moir

    Windows store is useless for education

    I work for a college and we're looking to finalise our W10 image for a rollout over the summer break.

    We have two "windows store" apps in the image, one of which is the calculator app now they've abandoned the old calculator app.

    Most of the windows store posts I see from other Edu establishments on the likes of edugeek are all along the "how do I disable the #@!~%* store" line.

    If Microsoft thinks education is keen to use the windows store then from where I'm standing they are in for a nasty surprise.

  32. DDearborn

    Hmmm

    This is obviously a dry run for what will almost certainly be a harbinger of Microsoft's end game; Windows 11+ that will ONLY allow Microsoft approved applications to run on it.... Oh and it will be cloud based "system" where all of "your" data is stored on "their" computers. Who needs the "P" in computers when you've got Windows! The wet dream of every evil, maniacal and demented capitalist the world over: a totally captive customer base.

  33. GrapeBunch
    Coat

    ActiveXXX is so 90s.

    I can't wait to see the ad Subjects in the spam directory.

    See Windows 10 snaked! Etch closer to the Bung.

    They are Edging closer to the real final version, Windows Simon Fraser University. It's just a matter of positioning the Fraser and the University, which have been otherwise engaged.

  34. FlippingGerman

    "The base spec model is $999 (£780)" - ha, ha, ha, nope.

    Base spec is £979.

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/store/d/surface-laptop/90FC23DV6SNZ/KR02?icid=UK_Homepage_Hero_Surface_Laptop_5.2.17

  35. Nya
    Windows

    Think the plan for S is probably a bit different.

    Maybe it's just me, but kind of see S as becoming the default install for OEMs. Why pay for an OS when they can use a free one from MS? Makes sense for them to do so as if the customer wants more they can pay the Pro upgrade to MS.

    Why might MS think this is a good idea? Mostly as it's direct cash to them for the upgrade fee, but it is also a huge push for developers to make for the MS Store as it could well become the default for all new machines. Maybe it's just me thinking this could be the move, but nothing else really makes a lot of sense.

  36. matsmats

    Running Linux on Windows S as dual boot

    Can anyone pls acknowledge if you can run Ubuntu on a stick on any Microsoft hw with Win S?

    Loads of thx

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