back to article Post-Brexit five-year UK work visas planned – report

The UK government is considering a five-year post-Brexit visa scheme that would allow more foreign employees – including those in the tech sector – to work in the UK, according to reports. Ministers are considering plans that would grant more multi-year visas to migrant workers in “key” sectors, The Sunday Times reported this …

  1. Tom 38 Silver badge
    Joke

    Yay! H1-Bs come to the UK!

  2. Conrad Longmore

    If only..

    If only the EU would offer passports to citizens wanting to get out of this f--king failure of a country..

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If only..

      like this?

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-39082468

    2. Warm Braw Silver badge

      Re: If only..

      Well, you do (edit: as a British subject) have the unconditional right to reside and work in Ireland, regardless of the EU, though that doesn't of itself give you an Irish passport.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: If only..

        Let's see how long that carries on going after things like borders start to become apparent. It seems the government still hasn't worked out that if the UK leaves the single market and customs union, Northern Ireland can't have a soft border with both Ireland and rUK as that would mean it would be possible for a company in NI to import from the EU tariff free and and pass on to rUK and the EU ain't going to allow that. Perhaps they should ask a few experts.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: If only..

          You mean there might now be smuggling across the Irish border - surely not ?

          Anyone else remember the cow barns built across the border with queues of petrol tankers innocently going in and out of each end

          1. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

            Re: If only..

            You mean there might now be smuggling across the Irish border - surely not ?

            Ah, but the good old days smuggling occurred before there was a single market, and we had silly subsidies for exporting butter to another EU country. What was interesting ( a few years ago now) was to see how many petrol stations there were within about 20 miles of the border on the North (roughly zero) because fuel duty was massively lower in the south.

            They'll need a Trump wall sadly.

    3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: If only..

      Shall I quote you the favorite prime minister Mein Kampf quote or you already know it?

    4. druck Silver badge

      Re: If only..

      @Conrad Longmore: you are more than welcome to f--- off to another EU country if you really think their economies are doing better than the UK.

      1. Len Silver badge

        Re: If only..

        Hhm... there are quite a few EU countries with better economies than the UK. On growth alone the UK finished 2016 as the 14th fastest growing economy meaning there are thirteen EU member states with higher economic growth. Overall the growth outlook for every EU country (yes, including Greece) is positive. As for other metrics, you can find EU countries that outperform us on competitiveness, unemployment, tax pressure, ease of doing business etc. etc.

        The main challenge for anyone seeking better work in other parts of the EU will be the language. There are probably perhaps ten EU countries where you could easily find work while only speaking English.

        1. Dan 10

          Re: If only..

          I've been thinking about the language aspect. I suppose one of my next work study things will, rather than focus on cloud, security, blah blah etc, be a language, in the traditional sense rather than programming. I figure the likely work options (i.e. common choices for firms to relocate to from the UK) are Dublin, Paris, Amsterdam or a choice of German cities. Dublin I'll be fine obviously, and having worked in the Netherlands and seen the prevalence of English, I think the same applies in Amsterdam. Looking at French and German economies and industries, if I was a betting man I think that makes learning to speak German the best bet - anyone any thoughts?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: If only..

            > I've been thinking about the language aspect

            The language aspect comes with the job and your social prospects.

            I would just move somewhere that I like, or where I'm doing something I like, and then address whatever language needs there may be as they arise.

            Speaking six languages in my day-to-day already, it might be easier for me to say this, but I wouldn't worry too much about language learning itself, rather about the wider social aspect, and that's something you can only pick up once you settle there.

      2. Tom 38 Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: If only..

        @Conrad Longmore: you are more than welcome to f--- off to another EU country if you really think their economies are doing better than the UK.

        Well that's the problem, we can't. Or we can for a month, then fuck knows.

      3. MonkeyCee Silver badge

        Re: If only..

        I have, in part due to economy. But mainly because I'm married to a citizen of that country, my child is a citizen of that country, and I own a house there.

        Since I've had the right to live and work here since before I was born, having this taken away* is a real PITA. Every institution pretty much shrugs and says "For two years it'll be the same, after that fuck knows".

        So thanks to this BS I may well be forcibly separated from my family**, have no ability to plan for work or study after a two year horizon.

        I also don't really want a third citizenship. It's annoying enough for tax with two, one being commonwealth.

        *to some degree, to be decided when the brexiters get round to working out their plan in a realistic universe, and resolving that with the EU's universe. Which leaves me utterly re-assured.

        ** it's pretty likely that either Germany, Belgium or the Netherlands will let me become a resident, since I pay tax and don't break the law much, as there is quite strong political will towards keeping their brits

      4. smartypants

        Re: If only..

        @druck

        You manage to capture the essence of the swivel-eyed brexit supporter in one elegant sentence... Unpleasant, jingoistic and just plain wrong.

        I suspect you need a healthy dose of all three to keep reality at bay. Good luck with that over the next two years!

      5. veti Silver badge

        Re: If only..

        @druck: maybe you missed the Facts Of Life lesson as applied to migration:

        Getting out of a country is easy. "Leaving the UK" is no problem. Likewise, leaving any other country.

        The problem is that there has to exist another country that will let you in. And the UK has no power or authority to force them to do that. (At least, not any more. It used to have the authority to grant you automatic entry and rights in 27 other countries, but then some idiots voted to give that up, so here we are.)

        Even Hitler was all for Jews leaving Germany. But after a short while, no other country would let them in, and so they were stuck.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: If only..

          > Getting out of a country is easy.

          Unless, as is the case for a number of countries, you are an actual or suspected national of that country.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Meanwhile...

    ...the crops in the fields will rot, the hotels will be unstaffed and you'll being laying in that hospital trolley even longer, but still you'll be able to get an IoT devices to tell you that you need milk.

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Meanwhile...

      Well, this is what the people voted for, this is what MUST be delivered. I, personally, am against the madness in the first place. I voted remain.

      The current screams by various "interested parties" about "this will fail without the Eastern European slaves" are disingenuous. As my CS professor in high school in the days before political correctness used to say - you cannot have your penis in both hands and your soul in paradise at the same time.

      If Leave means Leave, that is what it means. The ones who remain in this country (isn't this a wonderful word play), will have to contend with it.

      1. Adam 52 Silver badge

        Re: Meanwhile...

        " this is what the people voted for"

        I do wish people would stop saying this, even in jest. The question was about leaving the EU. There was no vote at all about migration, immigration, human rights reform, trade policy, defence policy or taxation.

        Implementing the referendum result would involve leaving the EU whilst maintaining the status quo in all other areas - free movement and free trade would stay, for example.

      2. Baldy50

        Re: Meanwhile...

        I didn't! FYI.

        Wish this guy was our PM to sort you lot out.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0eGaKCgW-M

        Wonder if he'll get the 'Ronald Reagan Award'? But he's done a great service to The UK on many fronts, especially our relations with you lot over the pond and for our sovereignty, dignity, self-determination etc, as history as proved, careful who you mess with cos you might regret upsetting us/US.

        1. Lars Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: Meanwhile...

          @ Baldy50

          I am not quite sure if I understand your comment or not, but that face and voice of that man I don't think I would use for anything else but a scarecrow. Poor birds. And if you are American he is indeed absolutely convinced he is the reason Trump is the president and he would indeed love to be part of his administration. Would Trump be that crazy I really don't know. You can have him as far as I am concerned while I am not British I am not surprised he has been unable to become a MP in Britain. Perhaps you could let him loose in Texas for a Brextex just for the fun of it.

      3. RedCardinal

        Re: Meanwhile...

        >>Well, this is what the people voted for

        They didn't vote for it in Scotland where 68% voted to remain. However, hardly anyone voted there for our current tory government either (remind me again how many Conservative MPs there are in the whole of Scotland? Answer - One). So hey ho.

        And they wonder why some people might be in favour of Independence...

    2. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

      Re: Meanwhile...

      The government plan to keep immigration at current levels. How they square this with their manifesto commitments, I don't know. But they are not going to "shut the door" on those people until we've trained our own doctors and fruit pickers. They may, however, prevent these immigrants claiming benefits they don't currently claim. So that will be a win.

      1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        Re: Meanwhile...

        But they are not going to "shut the door" on those people until we've trained our own doctors and fruit pickers.

        You are missing the point. The door is open both ways.

        Based on a recent opinion poll amidst NHS staff from Europe, 40% of them intend to leave.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Meanwhile...

        Erm, but the UK Government already has the power to restrict benefits to non-UK nationals if they wanted to, whilst remaining in the EU. Many EU countries already do that. The fact is the consecutive UK governments don't having an effing clue about most things, that's why this country is in such a sorry mess and taking the wrong remedies to try and solve them.

      3. Tom 38 Silver badge

        Re: Meanwhile...

        until we've trained our own doctors and fruit pickers.

        Hahaha, good one.

        PS: Fruit picking, not that tricky. It continually amazes me that people won't move from areas with high unemployment in the UK to work picking spuds in Peterborough, but they will from Lithuania...

        1. Jess

          Re:won't move from areas with high unemployment ...but they will from Lithuania...

          To be fair these people are migrants, come over live on the cheap and work hard for a few months and go home with what after exchange rates is a decent wad. Cutting them out will mean the slack is taken up by immigrants from outside the EU. Immigrants stay put.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Re:won't move from areas with high unemployment ...but they will from Lithuania...

            > To be fair these people are migrants, come over live on the cheap and work hard for a few months and go home with what after exchange rates is a decent wad.

            And to be fairer, it is not about the rather pitiful wages. It is about the experience of a paid working holiday (picking fruit can actually be good fun, judging by my flatmate's experience when I was a student), and about learning / practising a new language.

            This is why you will find Brits picking grapes in France, and Germans in Spain, for example.

            1. Jonbon99
              Thumb Up

              Re: Re:won't move from areas with high unemployment ...but they will from Lithuania...

              Yes exactly.

        2. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
          Flame

          Re: Meanwhile...

          Tom 38

          Quote:

          Fruit picking, not that tricky. It continually amazes me that people won't move from areas with high unemployment in the UK to work picking spuds in Peterborough, but they will from Lithuania...

          The reason is simple: Cost

          Imagine you're a guy with young family living in say... I dunno Manchester for example

          You think... I'm unemployed, but can go fruit picking in Norfolk.

          So now you're working... but you lose a lot of the benefits you were being paid, plus the fact theres no way to commute from Manchester to Norfolk every day, so you have to rent a room somewhere.

          But the time you've done that, you find you're £100/wk worse off than being unemployed.

          And yes I have seen it happen with an unemployed friend who could'nt get a job because he'd lose so much money having to pay full rent on his place.

          And finally, when people go "Lazy brits dont want to work, well , we'll make them" just replace the word 'brits' with the word 'jews' and see how much it sounds like a popular central european political party from the 1930's

          1. smartypants

            Re: Meanwhile...

            On replacing the word "brits" with "jews"... Good point.

            Perhaps also we could replace the word "migrants" or "foreigners" with "people".

            Then when I next read about a family where the mother happened to have lived all her working life in the UK but was born in another EU country, and has been refused permanent residency, I can see how wrong it is for the government to turn UKIP poison into policy.

            About a third of such applications for PR are being rejected, and this is causing huge anxiety for thousands of families up and down the country, their lives reduces to bargaining chips for Theresa May's stupid game of "gamble away the country".

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Meanwhile...

              I dread my own application:

              Two semi British kids

              17 years of PAYE and NI

              Always wanted to become British (no, not for the F-ing Brexit reason) but never thought it would be under duress

              And them some nasty penpusher will have control over my future because the wrong box was ticked or I used the wrong kind of ink.

            2. billse10

              Re: Meanwhile...

              "their lives reduces to bargaining chips"

              Serial idiot John Redwood was on Daily Politics yesterday (iPlayer if anyone hates themselves enough) saying he doesn't understand anything at all and refuses to listen to people who do why the EU countries won't issue guarantees to UK citizens as Mrs "May has already said the UK will". Firstly "will", is future tense - not present - so why should the EU offer in advance of a formal UK commitment, when it's the UK making the change, not the EU? Secondly, what about EU citizens who live in and work in the UK now, who choose to go & visit family post-Brexit - will they definitely be allowed back to their jobs, their lives here, without any unnecessary issues? What about small companies that rely on cross-border business, are they going to get meaningful help, or is that only to be offered to people the size of Nissan, Crapita, and so on? [Capita and it's ilk are already being given more than enough subsidies by IR35 changes, maybe they'll be honourable and refuse any additional help? haha]

              Until all of those questions are answered, and set in law, we do not know what is going to happen, and anyone who says "it will all be great or even just OK" seems as believable as the average political manifesto: they don't know what will happen. I don't know that our politicians will claim they have got a good deal simply because the Daily Fail says they did, just as I don't know that Mr Trump is blocking huge parts of the media from press conferences because he doesn't like being questioned: it's just a small suspicion.

    3. MonkeyCee Silver badge

      Re: Meanwhile...

      "you'll being laying in that hospital trolley even longer"

      Don't worry, with the changes to IR35 you won't even have to wait that long.....

      I reckon 6 weeks or a cold snap until the NHS starts to properly break down.

    4. Jason Hindle

      Re: Meanwhile...

      Likewise, I don't buy the the idea that the country will fall apart without cheap Labour. As I see it, we have more than one type of Brexiter. Now this isn't exhaustive, but we do have:

      - Tbe money: Will continue to benefit from all the cheap labour it wants.

      - The poor and left behind: The newly minted cheap labour.

      Then we have Reg readers who might not have voted leave, but will probably get bit richer from the IT fallout. This could be bigger than Y2K.

  4. tiggity Silver badge

    Is there a lack of tech skills

    Or lots of people who CBA to work for the pittance on offer in many parts of the country.

    .. Obviously there are some stupid job specs that cannot be met and so artificial lack of skills.

    e.g. ask for n years experience of software that has only been available for n-2 years etc.

    e.g. ask for so many recent new "flavour of teh month" things that, in the unlikely event you had used them all, with so many of teh and them being so new you could not honestly claim good level of expertise in them all.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Is there a lack of tech skills

      Given that you can now be paid more in Bangalore or Mumbai than you can in parts of the country, how are we going to attract the skills we need from India now? (Although with the big consultancies moving jobs overseas as fast as they could over the last few years what has happened to the staff they no longer need?)

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    According to The Times, a minister said: “The simplest way is to have five-year visas. You’re welcome to come if you have a job where we need you, but you don’t get benefits and then you leave.”

    I wonder why do I expect that holders of these visas would still be expected to pay full National Insurance contributions, but won't be able to claim any benefits or pensions?

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      The smart ones will be working for their Guernsey based management company and will only be in the UK for 5 ears for meetings and integration - no tax and no NI

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      The social contract seems to have been broken. If I pay NI I expect NHS, unemployment benefit, and pensions.

      Paying NI for nothing, having conditions placed on staying (who knows, in a few years the Home Office could be breaking up your relationship or family), and working in a country where the knuckle draggers have a free pass and the government is happy to appease them isn't the kind of environment which attracts "exceptional talent".

    3. crazylad

      the problem with the 5 years visa is a bit bigger than that I am going to be in retirement in the next few years, will I need a visas for my retirement,do I receive a UK pension as I paid for it even if it is getting worse and less or can I take all that money that I contributed to my country france if I can, by the way those visas is another stealth tax no more no less

  6. LDS Silver badge
    Joke

    "The top countries by application for Exceptional Talent visas are..."

    "Nigeria". Do they count the 412 scam they receive???

  7. gnasher729 Silver badge

    If there are no benefits paid, does that mean employers and employees won't have to pay national insurance contributions?

    And if benefits were based on how long you have worked in the UK, would that only apply to foreigners, or to the huge number lazy Brits who have successfully avoided any work for years as well?

    1. Aitor 1 Silver badge

      Benefits

      No benefits for brown people, only for local chavs and neds.

      So the idea is to exploit foreigners, and smart ones. I wonder how smart can they be if they decide to work for less and with worse conditions than the US, for example.

  8. TRT Silver badge

    Johnny 5 says...

    Freedom of... right to, entitlement to, privilege, prerogative, dues!

    They could always change the spelling.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Whatever your stance on Brexit I think everyone can agree that immigration needs to be sorted.

    If you have 278k people entering the country every year then as we now see infrastructure can't cope without massive investment which the government is not going to do.

    An example of this is the creation of 1650 near where I live. They are building a shopping parade with the "possibility" of a doctors or a pharmacy. No word on schools, no work on transport though where they are building them is avoided like the plague at rush hour by me.

    The problem with the EU is that once you are in one country you can go to any other, so if a country decides to take a million refugees and they want to be in the UK they only have to wait to become citizens then move.

    I actually think this is a sensible approach.

    1. graeme leggett

      Half of that immigration -shall we say 140 thousand in round numbers - is from outside EU. And could have been choked off with not a word of complaint from Brussels.

      Problem halved. Though we'd probably have had to give up several thousand non-EU citizens working in the NHS.

      1. MonkeyCee Silver badge

        Immigration

        Pedant alert:

        Net immigration is ~300k. Actual immigration is ~650k, so about ~280k comes from the EU and another ~290k from the rest of the world, the remainder being returning brits.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Immigration

          Net immigration is ~300k.

          Net immigration is not a very informative number by itself. A more useful metric is net immigration per 1000 population per year. Let's see how the UK is doing on this metric (using mostly 2015 figures from

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate):

          UK: 2.54

          Spain: 8.31

          Australia: 5. 65

          Canada: 5.66

          Sweeden: 5.42

          Switzerland: 4.74

          Italy: 4.10

          Ireland: 4.09

          US: 3.86

          Russia: 1.69

          France: 1.09

          Germany: 1.24

          Greece: 2.32

          South Korea: 2.60

          It therefore appears that the UK net migration levels are broadly in line with other reasonably prosperous countries. If anything, they are on the low side among anglophone countries. For example, Canada's net migration rate is over twice the UK's - and they considering increasing it further. It does not seem to cause a crisis in Canadian health care, education, or housing; rather the overall economic and social effect of high immigration is clearly positive for Canada. One might be tempted to think that the difference is in the much higher population density; however, South Korea is much more densely populated, but does not seem to consider net migration level identical to UK's as a problem.

          This all makes me suspect that the "immigration crisis" in the UK is largely a manufactured problem.

          1. veti Silver badge

            Re: Immigration

            Net immigration is a very new phenomenon in South Korea, which only (officially, according to the UN) became a net 'receiving' country in 2007. Previously it was exporting people, so its population density was actually dropping, and is (probably) still below peak levels.

            Currently, about 11% of Britain's population are first-generation migrants. That's about the same as the Netherlands, France and Greece. A bit less than Germany, Canada, the USA or Spain, but all those countries have vastly more land area to work with. Of those 11%, two-thirds are from outside the EU.

            In absolute numbers of immigrants, though, Britain is 5th in the world - 3rd, if you exclude Russia and Saudi Arabia on the grounds that they're hellholes that nobody in their right mind would want to move to without powerful independent incentives. This matters because it means Britain looms disproportionately large in the minds of potential migrants - meaning, poor people in whatever country who simply want a chance of a better life - who are, all other things being equal, proportionally more likely to head for Britain than almost any other country except (until very recently) the USA.

            At least some of the anti-immigrant talk in the UK is consciously aimed at those "potential migrants", to discourage them from coming. So it's not quite as irrational as it might appear.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Immigration

              In absolute numbers of immigrants, though, Britain is 5th in the world - 3rd, if you exclude Russia and Saudi Arabia on the grounds that they're hellholes that nobody in their right mind would want to move to without powerful independent incentives.

              I have no first-hand experience living Saudi Arabia, so I can't comment on it. Russia, on the other hand, can be quite pleasant, provided that you make the effort of learning the language, and accept that the culture and the way things work will not be the same you are used to. It is not to everybody's liking, of course. On the whole, I would not want to live in Russia, and certainly not in Moscow (although I have no doubt I would make a comfortable living there) - but my wife, for example, likes going to Russia very much.

              As far as net migration to Russia is concerned, it used to be mostly ethnic Russians escaping the post-Soviet chaos of the central-Asian stans - so one should really classify these migrants as refugees. That time is over; the present net migration is mostly economic. In the European part of the country, it still comes mostly from the ex-Soviet space (mostly the same stans, plus Ukraine); this makes perfect sense: the biggest barrier for migration to Russia is the language, and these countries have a long (if not entirely voluntary) tradition of learning it - not unlike the Commonwealth, if you think about it.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Immigration

              > if you exclude Russia and Saudi Arabia on the grounds that they're hellholes that nobody in their right mind would want to move to without powerful independent incentives.

              Lived in both, loved it. My "powerful independent incentive" was plain curiosity. What was yours and what did you not like about them?

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Immigration

            > Net immigration is ~300k.

            > Net immigration is not a very informative number by itself. A more useful metric is net immigration per 1000 population per year.

            I see your paltry 300 K. Allow me now to introduce you to Lebanon, which by 2012 had already taken 1.25 million people¹, the vast majority refugees, representing a full 20% of the country's population of 5 million at the time. Its 2015 population estimate² is 5.8 million people. And no, their birth rate³ is nothing exceptional, in fact it is quite comparable to Britain's⁴.

            For a first-hand account from Lebanon, see http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/how-lebanon-is-coping-with-more-than-a-million-syrian-refugees/.

            PS: Turkey have taken a couple million too, btw, though they have negotiated a deal with the EU (much maligned in the press, but in reality quite efficient for everyone concerned, under the circumstances) whereby the EU finances and provides much of the infrastructure needed to host those people, look after their health, and provide work and educational opportunities.

            ¹ http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SM.POP.NETM?end=2012&locations=LB

            ² http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.TOTL?locations=LB

            ³ http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.CBRT.IN?locations=LB

            ⁴ http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.CBRT.IN?locations=GB

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      The problem with the EU is that once you are in one country you can go to any other

      The UK is out of Schengen, as evidenced by what's going on around Calais. They wouldn't be given citizenship for being in a country illegally or being a refugee for five years.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "The problem with the EU is that once you are in one country you can go to any other"

        @Dan55 - perhaps the original AC just wanted to show us what the Leave campaign wanted people to believe? Why let the truth get in the way of things? After all, Leave won, the rest of us have to follow "the Will of the People", as "the People have spoken", they have triumped, etc.

    3. Hans 1 Silver badge
      Paris Hilton

      >If you have 278k people entering the country every year then as we now see infrastructure can't cope without massive investment which the government is not going to do.

      Oh, sorry, I am silly, I thought the UK had a negative birth to death rate, as in, more die every year than are born... I must be mistaken and you are right, or, I am right and you are mistaken.

      Want a pension ? Sad really, should have thought about that 20 years ago, coz, well, baby boomers are leaving the work force in droves, who is supposed to pick up the slack ? Don't come with un-educated British breed, tuition fees are ensuring the British offspring remain un-educated.

    4. smartypants

      "If you have 278k people entering the country every year then as we now see infrastructure can't cope without massive investment which the government is not going to do."

      EU immigration over the last 15 years has been a small fraction of all immigration. Successive governments - including the Tories with May as Home Secretary for 7 years - have seen the value in letting it happen.

      https://fullfact.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/UK-net-migration-since-19911.png

      The vast majority of inward migration is by young people - something in ever shorter supply as the UK continues its march to old age...

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I'll show you mine

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39062436

      http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/rights_of_residence_in_ireland/residence_rights_eu_national.html

      "These Regulations also introduce a new right of permanent residence for EEA nationals and their family members after a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence in the State"

      You show me yours.

      What I said was right and true yet I get lies and bullshit from people that do not understand basic facts.

      You get accepted in one EU country as a resident you are accepted in all, what part of this do you all not understand?

      I'm all for a one world where colour, religion, creed etc... make no difference however I'm a realist and until wealth is distributed equally that is never going to happen.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        looking at the BBC link you provided about UK immigration, and can't find the quote you gave. Perhaps it wasn't on a BBC or a UK government website?

        The UK position is summarised here.

        There is a right of residence in the UK after five years being here. You do not have an automatic permanent right of residence in the UK until after that five year period. The idea that being "accepted of one EU country as a resident you are accepted in all" is - oh, what's the phrase - "lies and bullshit". You are not accepted as a permanent resident in the UK once accepted in another EU country, you have to meet other criteria as well - saying otherwise is more "lies and bullshit". Oh, and by the way, if you're going to tell others to get "basic facts" right, the rules are around EEA, not EU. I know that the distinction might be seen as an "expert" one, and the press keep telling us that "experts" have ruined things (I wonder if they say that when in surgery?); most of the "lies and bulllshit" are coming from those who misrepresent "basic facts" - like failing to differentiate between the EU and anything else that happens to have "Europe" in its name.

      2. Dan 55 Silver badge

        You get accepted in one EU country as a resident you are accepted in all, what part of this do you all not understand?

        All of it. It's completely wrong. If someone gets residency in one country it does not mean they've got residency in another.

        They might get across the border by land in the Schengen area but it does not mean they've got residency rights.

    6. Adam 52 Silver badge

      "If you have 278k people entering the country every year then as we now see infrastructure can't cope without massive investment which the government is not going to do."

      You've got the quote wrong, it was only 50k in the original. And you missed out the best bit:

      "As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood". "

  10. Why Not?
    Thumb Down

    Joined up government

    There will be so many contractors escaping the Public Sector IR35 witch hunt we won't need any immigration.

    Yeah right.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Of course. Pay full NI contributions, VAT and taxes. Expect to be shafted because we Brits are superior. This sort of mentality clearly worked very well 100 years ago, so lets give it another go.

  12. Stevie Silver badge

    Bah!

    Difficult to see how any Bright Young Thing could resist such attractive terms. I guess the government is hoping that the rest of Europe will take a leaf from Britain's Big Book of How To Do It and zone up in like manner, removing other options from the talent pool's visual field.

    Hmm. Special talents in the digital tech sector will have other options, eh?

    Here's a thought: What happens if the next big tech revolution isn't digital in nature? What if the Next Big Thing is, say, some sort of game-changing biological or bio-mechanical thing? Targetable smart nanobots for just-in-time tissue repair (where that isn't already done by nature), or neural tissue regeneration say? Or new materials science? Or any of the bajillion other non-computer-related advances one cares to notice happening in the world?

    This whole JuJuFlop stinks of the 1970s approach to encouraging electronics industry investment in the country.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Bah!

      That's the advantage of digital - it can mean anything you want.

      It might be embarrassing to be a politician opening a new AI research lab, next door to the empty nano-material research lab, next door to the crumbing high-temperature superconducitivy research lab, next door to the boarded up 5th generation software lab

      But with digital innovation thought leader research research you never have to worry about them failing to deliver

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bah!

        That's the advantage of digital - it can mean anything you want.

        Indeed it can.

        Is this something you had in mind: Termination of intractable hiccups with digital rectal massage.?

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Bah!

      Britain is supposedly good at biotech. Either biotech needs better lobbyists or that bubble has burst too.

  13. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Low wages in the uk

      There is a lack of good ones, as the good ones are very employable. You can get much more quality by recruiting foreigners than scraping the barrel for unemployed UK residents.

      I don't mean this in a bad way; in general the new European hires are far more educated, harder working and precise than most of the new UK hires. It is extremely hard finding competent well trained British engineers, but there seem to be lots still available from the EU

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Low wages in the uk

        Presumably the hard working educated and precise UK engineers have moved on to more lucrative employment - lets hope the City isn't allowed to hire all these foreigners aswell

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
      Childcatcher

      Re: Low wages in the uk

      "or are the British just easily oppressed and don't try asking for more?"

      Yes.

      We are all brought up on the story of Oliver Twist.

      "'Please, sir, I want some more.'

      The master was a fat, healthy man; but he turned very pale. He gazed in stupified astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds, and then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralysed with wonder; the boys with fear.

      'What!' said the master at length, in a faint voice.

      'Please, sir,' replied Oliver, 'I want some more.'

      The master aimed a blow at Oliver's head with the ladle; pinioned him in his arm; and shrieked aloud for the beadle.

      The board were sitting in solemn conclave, when Mr. Bumble rushed into the room in great excitement, and addressing the gentleman in the high chair, said,

      'Mr. Limbkins, I beg your pardon, sir! Oliver Twist has asked for more!'

      There was a general start. Horror was depicted on every countenance.

      'For MORE!' said Mr. Limbkins. 'Compose yourself, Bumble, and answer me distinctly. Do I understand that he asked for more, after he had eaten the supper allotted by the dietary?'

      'He did, sir,' replied Bumble.

      'That boy will be hung,' said the gentleman in the white waistcoat. 'I know that boy will be hung.'

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What utter s*****

    How many skilled people (i.e. people with experience, and hence also typically of young family age) are going to relocate to the UK knowing they will be thrown out after 5 years?

    What happens if they have another kid in the UK in the meantime?

    I'm beginning to really hate what this country is becoming.

    1. Aitor 1 Silver badge

      Re: What utter s*****

      Racists and bigots.

      But hey, people voted for that.

      1. Jess

        Re: But hey, people voted for that

        To be fair they didn't.

        That is simply the motivation of those who hold the key to the marginals at the next election, hence May's hard brexit and Corbyn enabling it.

        1. Aitor 1 Silver badge

          Re: But hey, people voted for that

          Err, maybe they did not vote for that, but even if they didn't they decided it was ok to go to bed with those ideas. And they decided it was ok because the apalling treatment affected people from abroad.. so...

        2. billse10

          Re: But hey, people voted for that

          "To be fair they didn't.

          That is simply the motivation of those who hold the key to the marginals at the next election, hence May's hard brexit and Corbyn enabling it."

          @Jess - Corbyn did more than enable it, he has practically ensured the Opposition is doing nothing to oppose it in any effective way.

      2. Hans 1 Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: What utter s*****

        >Racists and bigots.

        >But hey, people voted for that.

        Well, my understanding was the British voted to leave the EU, that is all. The conservatives realized they could turn that into whatever they liked, because the question asked to voters was so vague.

        Since the conservatives are a bunch of racist bigots, you can blame it all entirely on them .... I am pretty sure 80% of the registered British voters did not want what is being served here ... or so I hope, right ...

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: What utter s*****

          It wasn't vague, it was specific, despite the creative interpretation of the truth used to argue its case.

          The EU is a subset of the single market, the customs union, the ECJ, the ECHR, and "the future we want for our country" or whatever it was that Mayhem said at the start of her speech. The referendum result does not give the government a license to leave all of that.

          1. billse10

            Re: What utter s*****

            @Dan 55 - no, no-one voted to give the government a mandate to take us out of all of that, but they are doing it anyway. The Leave campaigners won by a margin of just 2.7% of the electorate, so if even 4% of Leave voters don't want the Adamantium Brexit that May is going for, there's no mandate at all for the course the government is pursuing.

            Yet anyone according to the Leave mouthpieces, anyone saying that is going against the Will of the People. Ain't democracy great?

            1. SundogUK

              Re: What utter s*****

              "no-one voted to give the government a mandate to take us out of all of that"

              Yes we did.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: What utter s*****

                No we didn't.

                The referendum question was: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

                No mention of the EEA. No mention of the common customs area. No mentioned of the European Court of Human Rights, which is a completely different thing from the EU. No mention of Euratom or the European Space Agency. No mention of the various European sporting competitions. Not a word about air traffic control which led to cheap flights. No one voted on those as they were not in the question asked. Of course, if you think the actual question asked encompasses all of those, just because they have Europe in their names, then you are perfectly entitled to that view, even if it means reading things into the question that were not there in referendum question quoted above, and I look forward to your reaction when the government goes ahead with all of it.

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: What utter s*****

      The thing is, they can't easily relocate with their partner or family and if they do the partner has to reapply after 33 months. The partner must support themselves in spite of being supported by their spouse.

      If they have another kid then he or she won't be British unless the other parent is.

      Their life in the UK is subject to the whims of the Home Office which will break up families.

      If the Tories think this is going to get skilled people in, they're on another planet. Which we all knew anyway.

    3. oxfordmale78

      Re: What utter s*****

      Probably nobody. If you are really skilled and don't mind been thrown out after five years, you are better off in Silicon Valey where the pay is at least double what you can get in the UK.

  15. codejunky Silver badge

    Meh

    I think its a good idea to treat all incoming the same instead of favouritism if they come from the right place. Of course the idea of equality will upset those who were treated as more 'equal' but I doubt that is a shock to anyone. I dont want this country to turn into some isolationist nut house, UK or EU, and hopefully once this EU irritation is done we can all get on with life and get along.

    To be honest the EU is somewhat making me happy at the moment. We voted leave and finally we have a gov willing to do that and the EU has been aggressive in setting the terms of all or nothing. Of course it eventually dawned on them that they would be cutting off their own nose to spite their face but their fanaticism for their project is keeping them from negotiating. I worry that they will start negotiating a 'special' deal and we end up trapped in the cartel.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Meh

      ok, i'll bite.

      All incoming the same instead of favouritism - fine, if it means exactly that, no more and no less. No-one is more equal than others. No special treatment for anyone - not EU, not Common Travel Area, not Commonwealth. Right now, it doesn't mean that. And certainly in this constituency (in East London), people were told that if they voted Leave, there were very good chances of Commonwealth immigration going up as the "Eastern Europeans wouldn't be taking away all the places" (and yes, I heard that directly).

      The government is going far beyond what the people voted for, and the EU is not being "aggressive" in setting the terms as all or nothing: it was very clear going into the referendum that the UK voters were being asked "in" or "out", and at that time the EU said "ok, up to you. If you are in, you're in. If you're out, you're out. You will not be able to pick and choose." They are taking the position we were told they would: our government is not. No-one on the Leave side told us what they are for, only what they are against. That's a great way to win an election, or a referendum, but not a way to frame policy or to lead a country.

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Meh

        @AC

        "and at that time the EU said "ok, up to you. If you are in, you're in. If you're out, you're out."

        You might want to tell the various people on here about that when they claim leaving completely is this government being awkward.

        "And certainly in this constituency (in East London), people were told that if they voted Leave, there were very good chances of Commonwealth immigration going up as the "Eastern Europeans wouldn't be taking away all the places" (and yes, I heard that directly)."

        The great pleasure of this vote was that it was rigged to get the 'right' answer and there was no provision for the alternative. So what you were told is still possible because this gov will spend most of its time dealing with brexit and then the next GE we will actually be able to vote for a government to run the country.

        "No-one on the Leave side told us what they are for, only what they are against."

        The leave campaign was for control of our own country, to leave the cartel and be free to go global, to have the right to dump the stupid laws coming from the EU. Sorry if you missed that but the leave campaign was for a lot of reasons while remain seemed to be the free movement within the 'approved' zone and fear of the rest of the world or even reprisals from the EU (some friends eh!).

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Meh

          "You might want to tell the various people on here about that when they claim leaving completely is this government being awkward."

          Leaving the EU completely the only thing the outcome of the referendum should lead to. Not leaving anything the government or the press dislike that happens to be conveniently similar to the EU even if a completely different thing - that is precisely this government's doing, with the help of the opposition, but not the wishes of the majority of the electorate. People on here are quite legitimately pointing out that leaving the EU, and only the EU, was the mandate the government was just about given.

          As far as your late paragraph goes, ok - fine. To have control, total control, we also have to leave NATO. The WTO. The UN. Stop key cooperation on anti-terrorism, as some of those agreements have things in them where the UK has to play along with rules written by others. And that's just the start.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Meh

            @AC

            "Not leaving anything the government or the press dislike that happens to be conveniently similar to the EU even if a completely different thing"

            I wouldnt disagree. But we must leave the EU and the EU insist that includes the single market etc. We need to be out of the EU regardless of the title they give it (dont want EU but under another name for example).

            "People on here are quite legitimately pointing out that leaving the EU, and only the EU, was the mandate the government was just about given."

            Oddly people are saying all kinds of things including how the vote should be invalidated or ignored because the people dont matter. The same contempt all the voters were shown by both official campaigns and Camerons government running the referendum.

            "To have control, total control, we also have to leave NATO. The WTO. The UN"

            Why is it that people are 'extremists' for wanting to leave the EU yet during the discussions it is extremist statements like that we leavers must contend with? Why must we leave cooperative agreements we choose to be part of? Which of those is the EU? Running our own country does not mean some nationalist pull up the drawbridge fantasy (shared it seems by racists and extreme EU lovers).

            I urge you to re-read what I said and what you responded to. I said leave was for control of our country (something the EU openly admits it is taking from member states as its actual purpose of being) and you replied about 'total control' by being uncooperative and isolationist. Those two things are very different and not subtle either.

  16. Baldy50
    Trollface

    I'm not trying....

    To be hated but, OK maybe a little.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaq7f5HBOrs

    They keep on about fake news but not the stuff we need to be aware of that's suppressed for fear of offending, depressing!

  17. Melanie Winiger

    Plan B

    Enough.

    I'm claiming Asylum in Nigeria. Just look at all those Visa applications from there!

  18. Jonbon99
    Mushroom

    Posted again not sure if it was accepted first time

    I voted to leave because of how EU is moving - they patently don't like Britain, and Merkel's whim of inviting 1m+ migrants to feast at the taxpayers' table was staggering.

    As a 26 year old who lives at home, I followed a lot of my parents' sentiment regarding the EEA / common market, and how that morphed into an EU superstate. Whilst their musings were based on rose-tinted nostalgia (dad born 1945), lots of what they said gave me context that made me feel it appropriate we left the project rather than try to "fix from within".

    As mentioned by others, I voted to leave predominantly because it was one of two options. I felt voting remain would have dire consequences for our descendants (30+ years from now), and I also felt that Britain is uniquely placed to make independence work (global connections / anglosphere etc).

    If I didn't live with my parents, I would have voted remain. I would have done this for one reason - freedom of movement. I am a strong believer in qualitative immigration (not Merkel's rabble), and feel the current government will effectively pull up the drawbridge, cutting many of the options previously open to the young.

    Bill Gates was quoted as saying 20% of errors affected 80% of users - fixing those errors made 4/5 of complaints go away. In my opinion, if the government made mutually beneficial qualitative immigration one - if not the - main objective of Brexit negotiations, it would quell most dissent on both sides (remain/leave).

    As it stands, it feels like SS Brexit is full steam ahead to port "little Britain" where all the retirees can further lament on the "good old days", living ever harder on time borrowed from their parents, money from their children.

    Such policies as 180 day visa-free recreational period for EU citizens (already enjoy 90-day), readily available work permits for EU citizens, education partnerships with Singapore & Hongkong (swapping students), anglosphere / commonwealth trade partnerships, a fund for EU citizens who wish to set up businesses in UK... would greatly lessen the blow of Brexit and hopefully spur our continental partners to similar ideals.

  19. Jonbon99

    I voted to leave because of how EU is moving - they patently don't like Britain, and Merkel's whim of inviting 1m+ migrants to feast at the taxpayers' table was staggering.

    As a 26 year old who lives at home, I followed a lot of my parents' sentiment regarding the EEA / common market, and how that morphed into an EU superstate. Whilst their musings were based on rose-tinted nostalgia (dad born 1945), lots of what they said gave me context that made me feel it appropriate we left the project rather than try to "fix from within".

    As mentioned by others, I voted to leave predominantly because it was one of two options. I felt voting remain would have dire consequences for our descendants (30+ years from now), and I also felt that Britain is uniquely placed to make independence work (global connections / anglosphere etc).

    If I didn't live with my parents, I would have voted remain. I would have done this for one reason - freedom of movement. I am a strong believer in qualitative immigration (not Merkel's rabble), and feel the current government will effectively pull up the drawbridge, cutting many of the options previously open to the young.

    Bill Gates was quoted as saying 20% of errors affected 80% of users - fixing those errors made 4/5 of complaints go away. In my opinion, if the government made mutually beneficial qualitative immigration one - if not the - main objective of Brexit negotiations, it would quell most dissent on both sides (remain/leave).

    As it stands, it feels like SS Brexit is full steam ahead to port "little Britain" where all the retirees can further lament on the "good old days", living ever harder on time borrowed from their parents, money from their children.

    Such policies as 180 day visa-free recreational period for EU citizens (already enjoy 90-day), readily available work permits for EU citizens, education partnerships with Singapore & Hongkong (swapping students), anglosphere / commonwealth trade partnerships, a fund for EU citizens who wish to set up businesses in UK... would greatly lessen the blow of Brexit and hopefully spur our continental partners to similar ideals.

    1. Jess

      There are three ways I can see Brexit being a success for Britain.

      1. The decimation plus of our economy, ignites the British spirit and we get ourselves to new levels that we would not have otherwise achieved. Like the numerous motivation stories you see of someone who faces adversity through a loss of a limb, and fights back against it and becomes a bigger success than before. (Though I don't recall any of these stories featuring someone who deliberately cut of a limb.)

      2. Enough of the World believes Mrs May's Wizard of Oz style bluster, and invests that it eventually becomes true.

      3. Brexit triggers a chain reaction resulting in the end of the EU, resulting in a weak Europe (politically and economically) dominated by the superpowers. We would only be a success relative to Europe in this scenario. (Not compared to our pre referendum situation).

      But what I expect to happen is a Techxit. Apparently something like 40% of the largest multinationals EEA HQs are here. they will have to relocate leaving something about 15% of the size to manage the UK. (Though of course the other 60% will need to create UK HQs, it is still a big net loss.)

      It wouldn't surprise me if Ireland did well out of this.(They already have some friendly tax laws) Companies moving to the replublic would be able to retain their UK staff and their EU staff. It might even make sense to have the UK office in Northern Ireland for ease. And if somehow the Irish border remains open (as Mrs May seems to want*) then it would be even easier.

      *I'm not sure how this would be possible.

      If we leave the customs union. The EU could not allow it, because it would be a backdoor into the free market (smugglers paradise) If we have left the EEA because of control-our-borders how can you not have a hard border between where EEA citizens can legally be and the UK? Unless you put the hard border round Great Britain, and give NI some sort of special half in half out status. (Which of course the Scots would also want, which would then mean there would be the same problem on the England Scotland border.

      Interesting time. But loads of work for IT contractors and removals companies. then I guess contract work in Dublin after it has happened. (Unless the EU does offer this associate citizenship deal.)

  20. IndoEuropean

    Study in Sweden @http://www.indoeuropean.in/countrypropertiessweden.aspx

    Senior specialists would recommend young aspirants who are seeking to study in Europe, to settle for a study in Sweden. Why do you think Sweden is recommended? Sweden is fundamentally an English nation where the study medium is English as well. It is a Schengen nation. As a plus point, Sweden is the only country which issues the TRP card to the student in his home nation only. He does not need to do any application process once he lands in Sweden. TRP card is the resident permit which a student needs to possess for staying as well as studying in a European country.

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