back to article Microsoft Germany says Windows 7 already unfit for business users

Microsoft Germany has argued that Windows 7 is no longer "fit" to be used in business. A post we've shoved through two online translate-o-tronic services states that Windows 7 “can no longer keep up with the increased security requirements” of the mid-2010s. Markus Nitschke, head of Windows at Microsoft Deutschland, is quoted …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It'll do for now

    Because I have no trust in you bastards.

    1. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: It'll do for now

      Microsoft assumes that everyone is running Office 365 on systems linked through the public Internet so naturally they need everyone to run 'the latest'.

      The problem is that not everyone is running this software -- if they are, its ancillary to their main work. For the rest of us the priority is consistency and compatibility. (This is written by someone who's had the new Microsoft stuff pushed at his desktop; words fail me with this stuff. Meanwhile they still haven't figured out that having filenames that are not case sensitive, non standard path delimiters and software that obsesses about file extensions as being important -- all relics of MS-DOS -- is a major pain in the a** for developers.)(So along comes "Windows Support for Linux". Nice idea. Crap implementation, unfortunately. Cygwin and MinGw still does the job better and there's virtualization for those that need that level of separation.)

  2. kafantaris2

    Enough Whining.

    Windows 10 is the way to go -- if you've got work to do.

    1. Avatar of They Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Enough Whining.

      What's the pay and conditions like at Microsoft? I am curious.

    2. Dazed and Confused Silver badge

      Re: Enough Whining.

      Windows 10 never has been fit for business use if any of my W10 boxes are anything to go by. The best that can be said for it is that at least it isn't quite as bad as 8.

      1. Holtsmark

        Re: Enough Whining.

        The problem is that Microsoft skipped Windows 9

        1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken Silver badge

          Re: Enough Whining.

          "The problem is that Microsoft skipped Windows 9"

          8.1 = 9.

          According to the guys that brought you Excel.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Enough Whining.

      Does work involve candy crush saga, Xbox live and fsrmville, or wasting time trying to ignore flashing flipping files and trying to find something that used to be obvious.

      Windows 10 disaster is all about the how bad it is to use.

      A personal example,I have a batch file for logging me onto a raapebypi using putty. It's called RPI.bat. On my windows 7 machine, I typr RPI in the search, it finds it right away, I click it. On windows 10, it's in the same e place, the environment is the same, the search result comes from bing and it's a link to retail price index article on Wikipedia.

      I gave up with the free windows 10 "upgrade" after a month, and went back to Windows 7, it's far more productive

      1. Avatar of They Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: Enough Whining.

        I lasted 3 days. I did an upgrade of my games machine, spent a few hours removing candy crush, telemetry and mirror.co.uk. (They came back) I tried to find some features and was directed by an MS article into the DISM or whatever powershell is called in Windows 10. While typing a command in powershell I suddenly had a moment when I thought, "I am in a command line, in Windows... an actual command line. This isn't Linux WTF."

        As a mainly Linux user since 2008 I found it ironic they are copying Linux with multiple desktops and command lines. So I had a little laugh to myself as I couldn't find in windows 10 what I was after anyway, shook myself back into reality and rolled back to windows 7 (It is for my games machine you see)

        But after reading the EULA on initial install and marvelling at how there isn't a "No" option without using invisible scroll bars to find it is below what you can see, it is easy to see how people get sucked into giving all their data away.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Enough Whining.

          10 has been in use at the last 3 places I've worked and it's been fine. I'm not happy at using it at home because of it's nosiness but that clearly hasn't bothered my employers. It certainly usable for anyone who's capable of typing the name of the application they want to run or who knows how to right click and pin to the task bar. Just like 7 and 8.

          I wonder about the ability of people who work in the industry but can't cope with some gui changes.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Enough Whining.

            "I'm not happy at using it at home because of it's nosiness but that clearly hasn't bothered my employers."

            Maybe they're not big enough to have in-house legals.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Enough Whining.

        "Does work involve candy crush saga, Xbox live and fsrmville,"

        Well...

        At this very moment I can see the reflection behind my CTO's window and his "office productivity suite" seems to conform to different standards than his minions'.

      3. Glenturret Single Malt

        Re: Enough Whining.

        If it's so important (or frequently used), why do you have to search for it every time? Why not have it on the task bar so that a single click gives you what you want? And that applies equally to W7, does it not?

        1. quxinot

          Re: Enough Whining.

          >If it's so important (or frequently used), why do you have to search for it every time?

          Thank you. There's an even better option here, though. It's an unfamiliar and unusual ability called "being organized". It works with files, and it works with things like the start menu. Of course in 10 this means installing ClassicShell or similar, and that causes a couple other problems.

          It does strike me that the best way to judge how well a computer works for a given user is not to complain about how the appearance strikes that user's taste, but instead by how much time the user spends finding workarounds and ways to make the computer do what they want as compared to simply using it, and having the interface fade into the background.

          (Posted from LMDE with Mate. Not perfect, but closer than the rest for my use.)

    4. getHandle

      Re: Enough Whining.

      "Linux is the way to go -- if you've got work to do."

      FTFY - had to be done ;-)

      1. VinceH Silver badge

        Re: Enough Whining.

        ""Linux is the way to go -- if you've got work to do."

        Unfortunately, while I use a Linux box at home, and can use it for some work, it is absolutely NOT the way to go for the majority of my work - for which, ATM, a Windows computer is needed1. YMMV, of course.

        1. Currently Windows 7 (though I also have a couple of Windows 8 computers floating around).

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Linux

          Re: Enough Whining.

          "while I use a Linux box at home, and can use it for some work, it is absolutely NOT the way to go for the majority of my work"

          How many software devs in this 'room'? Let's *FIX* *THAT*, ok? Developers, developers, developers, developers! We just need Linux versions of "whatever you are using", right? Then, NO MORE EXCUSES!

          From the article: Windows 7 "does not meet the requirements of modern technology"

          Those 'requirements' would be, what, these?

          a) ADWARE

          b) SPYWARE

          c) 2D FLATSO FLUGLY (it's "modern") <-- snark voice required

          d) FORCED UPDATES

          and so on

      2. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: Enough Whining.

        "Linux is the way to go -- if you've got work to do."

        So tell me, how precisely do you run Adobe InDesign on Linux? Or do you think that book publishing isn't work?

        1. DonL

          Re: Enough Whining.

          "So tell me, how precisely do you run Adobe InDesign on Linux?"

          With Wine:

          https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=26506

          And I bet there are alternatves too that run on Linux natively.

          But feel free to stay on Windows, I'm just answering your question.

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: Enough Whining.

            With Wine:
            You've been drinking too much chardonnay (is there such a concept?) Wine lists InDesign 7 compatibility as "garbage".

            Nice try though...

            1. DonL

              Re: Enough Whining.

              "Wine lists InDesign 7 compatibility as "garbage"."

              The report you link to says: "The test results for this version are very old, and as such they may not represent the current state of Wine."

              And the newer version (CS6) is gold. (The single bug that was mentioned has a solution, in case you mention that)

              But again, feel free to stay with Windows if it works for you. No need to bring in false arguments.

              1. Pompous Git Silver badge

                Re: Enough Whining.

                And the newer version (CS6) is gold.
                You might think of pay-as-you-go software is gold, some of us prefer to continue using what we have already paid for. There's no useful new functionality in the rental version (from my POV), other than a purported compatibility with Wine and automatic updates.

                As things stand, InDesign 7 runs perfectly on w7 in a VM. Nor does it cost me an annual fee and risk not running on Wine when Adobe automagically upgrades the rented version.

                Peripheral to this, GoldWave 5.x supposedly runs on Wine, but I couldn't get it to create a new file. It just crashes. Runs perfectly under w7 running in a VM on Linux Mint. Just because somebody, sometime managed to get a Win app to run under Wine doesn't mean everyone can.

    5. King Jack
      Facepalm

      Re: Enough Whining.

      What business is going to be happy sharing everything they produce with M$? All your trade secrets and private communications are sent back to M$. People are either thick or insane to use Windows 10 for anything.

    6. earl grey Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Enough Whining.

      You're Satya and i claim my 5p (you're not worth more than that)...

    7. Florida1920 Silver badge

      Re: Enough Whining.

      Windows 10 is the way to go -- if you've got work to do.

      And yet, so many of us are working now (well, not at the moment), using Windows 7, and having no problems.

    8. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Enough Whining.

      Windows 10 is the way to go -- if you've got work to do.

      Depends on your 'work' and timeframe; for many millions of workers the tools they use are Office (typically one of 2007, 2010, 2013) and a browser such as Chrome or Firefox, which given these run on all currently shipping versions of Windows (with Office 2013 being the first to drop support for XP), does raise questions over the real business imperative for Win10. Particularly as MS have kindly point out Win7 can have it's security substantially enhanced by the deployment EMET.

      This isn't to suggest that businesses shouldn't be looking beyond 2020 (when Win7 and Office 2010 reach end of extended support and Win10 reaches end of mainstream support), but the case for moving to Win10 is less about real business benefits and more about maintaining IT ie. MS wasted billions on the new UI etc. because business would purchase Win10 if it had looked like 2K/XP, just to maintain their IT assets.

  3. Dwarf Silver badge

    If only there was a sensible Microsoft alternative then I'm sure companies would have it on their roadmap.

    One thing is sure though, it's not going to be Windows 10 with all the spyware and forced updates and adverts. You do realise that we've got a business to run and all this IT spend is an overhead ?

    Why do you think that there are still lots of places runnning 2003 and 2008 based OS's

    1. P. Lee Silver badge

      >If only there was a sensible Microsoft alternative then I'm sure companies would have it on their roadmap.

      It's called Windows 10 Enterprise and you have to buy other stuff to patch it, you (apparently) don't get the spyware and the adverts. That's reserved for freeloading scum who would never pay and pay and pay, but would just get one measily OEM license and keep it until the hardware died.

      Realistically, most people stick a few icons on the desktop and click them every now and then. Any OS can do it. The UI barely matters to the enterprise as long as the apps stay the same.

      As for security, how about isolating every application's data access? Click on a file in the file manager, it gets fed to the application which can only write back to that file or a new file. Otherwise, the application has to ask you via the OS if it wants to write to an existing file.

      So many security opportunities, so little effort.

      1. Mike 125

        >>reserved for freeloading scum who would never pay and pay and pay, but would just get one measily OEM license and keep it until the hardware died.

        You mean like, I buy a product, and just expect the f'king thing to work....... Wow. Now there's radical. It'll never catch on.

        1. Paul 129
          Flame

          Works for enterprise licenses only. So as a small business to get windows to work properly I must licence each employee for a 12 month period no matter how little they work for me. So I also need server licensing, cals and all that crap. I guess I could create special employee designations for logons rather than their names. Or I can go back to win7 and it just all works, waay faster and simpler, until I need a Kabby Lake based machine

          I want to earn money, not spend all my life trying to get MY bloody computer to work properly!

          I do not have a big enough business to support the headcount I would need to maintain this shit properly

          Windows 10 better? Muck up a shortcut in the winX folder, or have a context menu item fail, and you loose 50% of the functionally, or just have thr black screen of #_ck off, windows automatically updating drivers and trashing machines.

          And they wonder why pc sales are falling flat?

          Its astounding that people will use the horrid interfaces and keyboards on tablets and smartphones. PC's have become so unproductive that no one wants to turn on the box of bugs in the corner, unless they're forced to.

          Good one Microsoft!

      2. joed

        Enterprise build - besides the 1st LTSB - comes loaded to the brims with the same shit thrown at home users. It just includes additional toggle boxes to limit data leaks but this depends on admins (and MS does not make settings particularly clear, for reason I guess).

        Sure I can live with 10 but it makes me feel like like signing to FB (never had an account) and constant "tweaks" MS sends our way make it almost impossible to keep original settings. The system can't be broken, it is already. It works by inertia alone.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    That's a bare faced lie

    Windows was *never* suitable for business.

    :)

    1. Pompous Git Silver badge

      Re: That's a bare faced lie

      Windows was *never* suitable for business.
      Bullshit! NT4 was a decent OS and the only viable alternative, Mac System 7, lacked virtual memory and thanks to "co-operative" multitasking, work used to grind to a halt during print jobs.

      1. Roo
        Windows

        Re: That's a bare faced lie

        "NT4 was a decent OS and the only viable alternative"

        In my experience NT4 was definitely was *not* suitable for any business that cared about security or data integrity. One of the show stopper bugs we discovered in the first week of deploying it was the corruption of compressed read-only files accessed by NT 3.51 SMB clients... Linux + Samba was better even back then... YMMV.

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Re: That's a bare faced lie

          Linux + Samba was better even back then... YMMV.
          Obviously you're a lot smarter than most of us then. How did you manage to get Pagemaker/Xpress, Photoshop and all the other productivity software we were running on NT4 or System 7 to run on Linux? I tried to set up printer sharing using Samba on RedHat and SuSE without success. So I contacted the Samba devs for assistance. They suggested I do what they were doing: share the printer from an NT4 workstation.

  5. Dan 55 Silver badge

    Anything you do say will be taken down and used in evidence against you

    Not good for the OS maker to say security isn't up to scratch if they've promised support till July 2017 and major security updates till January 2020.

    They should only start dropping hints it's not as secure after July or people might think they're not trying and not getting what they paid for.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Anything you do say will be taken down and used in evidence against you

      Not good for the OS maker to say security isn't up to scratch if they've promised support till July 2017 and major security updates till January 2020.

      Yes and no!

      Reading the article about the security of Win10 ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/16/windows_10_anniversary_update_crushed_exploits_without_need_of_patches/ ) it is clear MS are talking about EMET. With Win10 MS have (finally) built into the OS and enabled them, protections similar to those delivered by EMET. Thus what MS are really saying is that Windows with EMET protections enabled is more secure than Windows without EMET - which is kind of obvious really...

      However, those who have been around a while will know that businesses prefer to install a single package rather integrate multiple packages, thus the main reason why MS merged so much functionality provided by standalone utilities firstly into DOS then into Windows and why Word, Excel, Powerpoint et al. became Office...

  6. djstardust Silver badge

    Really .....

    I have been running Windows 7 for years with updates turned off and basic free AV.

    It all works fine and no issues whatsoever.

    And no spying, forced updates and beta software. You can keep Windows 10 thanks.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Really .....

      And no spying

      You're using free AV. Now tell me again you know that for certain ..

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Really .....

      You're the kind of user that could be easily p0wned and would never discover it...

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Really .....

        You're the kind of user that could be easily p0wned and would never discover it...

        Rest assured, there are probably tens of millions of Windows users running exactly the same configuration; however, it isn't the user's fault this state of affairs exists...

      2. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: Really .....

        You're the kind of user that could be easily p0wned and would never discover it...
        While I swore black and blue to never, ever have anything to do with w10 after my initial experience, I had no choice when a friend handed me his teenage daughter's machine to fix in return for what he was doing for me (saving me a few hundred dollars).

        The w10 machine was "protected" by AVG-free and absolutely loaded with malware. Replaced AVG-free with a decent paid-for AV I have a spare licence for and lo, the machine went from 5 minutes to boot to less than 30 seconds after disinfection.

    3. tr1ck5t3r
      Trollface

      Re: Really .....

      Your malware is probably operating at the firmware level now, having updated your UEFI bios, your hard drive firmware and any usb devices connected that don't need the pins of chip's in the usb devices shorted to reprogram, where those chips are reprogrammable and not the more expensive one's burnt and fixed with the same code for life.

      Nothing like exploiting capitalism on a global scale, because your HW manufacturers and Rebranders typically stop supporting their devices after a few years from when they were sold. Fancy another IoT attack like we saw in Oct 2015 on the US?

      Its amazing just how many manufacturers and AV companies don't check the firmware authenticity of USB devices when they get plugged in. In fact hacking card readers and writers for things like door entry systems makes hacking data centres even easier, when did you last sweep the building or your rack space for add-on HW?

      Its like something out of Mr Robot!

      Just start here if you want to learn how easy it easy to reprogram the firmware of your USB devices. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff537061(v=vs.85).aspx

      In the mean time I found a way yesterday to install a device driver that's bypasses UAC set to the max on W7SP1. This will probably work on W10 as well, but yet to test.

      And if you get a blue screen of death, when on some websites, just pay attention to the driver affected, sending adverts which hack the graphics card to trigger a BSOD is more common than you think, so if you use IE, enable the option: Use Software Rendering instead of GPU Rendering, this will stop adverts and images on rogue websites from tripping up your graphics card. FYI.

    4. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Devil

      Re: Really .....

      "I have been running Windows 7 for years with updates turned off and basic free AV."

      I concur, though my updates have always been in 'manual'. And they stopped getting installed when GWX was excreted from the hideous bowels of Micro-shaft. And besides, when it takes an entire DAY to 'scan for updates', something is wrong with the process...

      With the use of 'safe surfing', vulnerabilities are MUCH LESS of a problem - even on an un-patched windows machine!

      1. don't use Intarweb Exploiter. *EVAR*

      2. use 'noscript' in Firefox, if you MUST go online with a windows machine. be aggressive with noscript. don't be fooled by "you cannot view the content".

      3. NEVER view e-mail in HTML format. And don't view images 'inline' either.

      4. NEVER open a flash video, or a PDF file that was mailed to you, with Adobe's reader.

      5. Don't use MS Office to open 'attached document files'.

      6. NEVER use MS Outlook for e-mail. *EVAR*

      7. NEVER have a public IP address on your windows computer, without some SERIOUSLY AGGRESSIVE EXTERNAL FIREWALLING. This includes IPv6.

      8. Do *NOT* trust Microsoft "anything" for security. This includes BOTH their firewall AND their virus scanner.

      Do this, and you could continue using WINDOWS XP without any worries. Seriously.

      (and use Linux or BSD for all of your web-surfing needs - it's probably using the SAME browser anyway!)

  7. malle-herbert Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Planned adolescence...

    That's all...

    1. getHandle

      Re: Planned adolescence...

      Subtle joke or auto-correct fail?

      I couldn't tell...

    2. Roger Greenwood

      Re: Planned adolescence...

      Nailed it. Most adolescents are not fit for work either.

  8. RealBigAl

    Microsoft Germany there, plugging Linux on the Desktop for all it's worth.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Yes, it's nice of them to support the Munich project. Well done, chaps.

  9. David Lawton

    I would say the Windows 10 GUI is unfit for business users.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      At least it's W10 GUI dual screen support is pretty good, have you tried KDE5 and let's now guess which screen my window is going to open on next and is it going to span both screens ?

      Note this is not an endorsement of Microsoft W10 but more of a kick in the bollocks for KDE devs. FFS it's 2017 and you still haven't sorted out the crap dual monitor windows placement from KDE4. Martin Gräßlin pull your finger out, compiz has had this right for years.

      1. Teiwaz Silver badge

        Dual Screens

        Never noticed that behaviour in KDE5 above and beyond any other WM or ui.

        The only sane option with more than one screen is still usually a tiler or some other hybrid with workspace per screen - unless you particularly want spanning or enjoy pinning and unpinning.

        Gnome shells default behaviour with more than one screen is a step in the right direction though - but as usual with Gnome they've stopped a little short of perfection.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Dual Screens

          >Never noticed that behaviour in KDE5

          No you haven't grasped it, KDE doesn't properly remember or calculate where it's windows placement is in X on dual screens when opening.

          Compiz 0.8.12 handles this very well even under KDE5 unfortunately there are a couple of issues with the taskmanager bar auto-hide not working and preview windows on taskmanager not working either. Additionally when you want to do replace --kwin_x11 to return to kwin when you have compiz running systemd starts eating CPU cycles and Kwin's windows decorator crashes. I've only recently upgraded for Opensuse 13.2 to Leap 42.2 because I knew from past experience (KDE3 to KDE4) that KDE5 would bring a heap of issues and sadly I wasn't wrong.

          I'm seriously considering Gnome (or Mate) which for a very long time (well over 10 years) hardcore KDE user is a sad day.

          1. Teiwaz Silver badge

            Re: Dual Screens

            No you haven't grasped it, KDE doesn't properly remember or calculate where it's windows placement is in X on dual screens when opening

            Kwin offers a lot more control with Window Rules compared to a lot of the other Wms used in Desktops.

            Used KDE from first foray into 'Linux in late 1999 until a year or so ago (still login and use it occasionally, as I'm wont to do also with Gnome). Perhaps I've not noticed any faults due to my long running use of the 'Window Rules' to bind applications to specific desktops (workspaces), and I don't get wildcard actions as my most used applications are already bound to specific Desktops (workspaces) or screens. This only ever fails (like it also does once in a while on tilers) with errant programs with badly set up X properties.

            If you do switch to Gnome (or Mate), just remember how f*cked up Gnome 3 was on it's first 8 to 12 releases.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Dual Screens

              >Kwin offers a lot more control with Window Rules compared to a lot of the other Wms used in Desktops.

              Erm bollocks I'm afraid, here's the bug report on remember size and position globally first posted in 2000 and labelled won't fix in 2012 and still present in KDE5:

              https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15329

              So you have to go through the tedious process of having to enable remember size and position for each application, something that's global for Compiz 0.8.12.

              and Martin's words which are full of shit when closing the bug as won't fix:

              "I am setting this feature request to WONTFIX as it is not possible to implement such a remember policy with our currently used windowing system. Recognizing a window is a non trivial issue. This might become solvable with Wayland but in general remembering cannot be implemented by a window manager or a windowing system, but has to be requested by the clients."

              I call BS because it works in Compiz.

              1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

                Re: WONTFIX in KDE

                I call BS on this as well.

                X11 has the concept of window hierarchy. Starting at the root window, which IIRC always has window ID 0, is is possible to traverse the complete hierarchy, obtaining the window ID, the name of the application and it's window name, it's colour depth, position and hints.

                Find the xprop and xwininfo binaries, run them, and point each at a window. Everything that is printed has been obtained through the X11 properties of the window. kwin is acting as an X11 window manager, so automatically has access to all this information.

                I don't know how this will be altered in Wayland or Mir, but X11 (either in it's MIT, XFree86 or X.org guise) has been the standard windowing framework on Linux and UNIX (the exceptions being very old Sun and Apollo systems [if you remember them - although not strictly UNIX], and Mac OSX) for a very long time.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Dual Screens

          The only sane option with more than one screen ...

          The only sane option with more than one screen (or just one screen, for that matter), is to let me, the end user, to arrange things in a way which make my life easier and my work more productive. The very last thing I care about is what a gnome, KDE, or Microsoft designer de jour believes I should be doing; and I definitely do not need any of them rearranging things behind my back, including changing the appearance or properties of the UI elements, or replacing genuinely useful features with pointless eye candy.

          From the point of view of business or development productivity, the only time a substantial change in UI is justified is when the nature of the end-user interaction with the system changes. For example, a touch-screen, pen-driven, or gesture interface needs to be different from a mouse-and-keyboard-centric interface to reach maximal efficiency; an immersive display system would justify, and if fact require, a substantial change in the UI; so would a non-gimmick haptic feedback system. UI innovation in these areas is very welcome, as we still lack a decent and intuitive way of utilizing these input and output devices.

          Unfortunately, this is not what has been happening in either the Microsoft or mainstream Linux UI communities (Gnome and KDE; do not crucify me if your favorite WM is not mentioned!). Instead, from outside it looks like these communities have been obsessed with mucking about with the keyboard and mouse interfaces. I am sorry, but the keyboard-and-mouse UI design for business and productivity applications was already essentially perfect in CDE/Motif of 20 years ago - most of the later additions are at best pointless eye candy, and at worst are reducing the UI clarity and efficiency.

          Why not leave good enough alone and concentrate on things which do need improvement?

          Just an old curmudgeon ranting; move along; nothing to see here ...

          1. Teiwaz Silver badge

            Re: Dual Screens

            the keyboard-and-mouse UI design for business and productivity applications was already essentially perfect in CDE/Motif of 20 years ago

            Design-wise, maybe they worked rather well. Application of said design left much to be desired in many cases. Take the quit keyshortcut - I've noted too many applications that have used Ctrl-w instead of Ctrl-q, or menu bars that decide on non-standard menu headings (VLC, I'm looking at you - alt-m is an oddity and non-standard compared to the uniform alt-f).

            Nothing perfect about the long running taskbar and startmenu layout though - I much prefer to type than hunt through fiddly categorical menus, when lack of a good efficient search bar, dmenu will do.

            With the advent of touch, gnome have rightly decided the menu bars are not fit for fingers, but I do question the choice of removing them entirely - hamburger menus are no sane replacement.

          2. caseyjones

            Re: Dual Screens

            So much commonsense in the post. Thus it has no place on an internet forum.

          3. Citizen99

            Re: Dual Screens

            [...]

            Instead, from outside it looks like these communities have been obsessed with mucking about with the keyboard and mouse interfaces. I am sorry, but the keyboard-and-mouse UI design for business and productivity applications was already essentially perfect in CDE/Motif of 20 years ago - most of the later additions are at best pointless eye candy, and at worst are reducing the UI clarity and efficiency.

            [...]

            Absolutely ! And you can still get the 'CDE-like' experience with the Trinity fork of KDE3.

            Now retired, I can fulfill my few domestic workstation needs to run Windows applications with XP/W7 virtual machines (internet access disabled) in cases where Wine/Crossover won't do.

      2. Dazed and Confused Silver badge

        Re: let's now guess which screen my window is going to open on next

        Actaully that's pretty much my experience of W10 with dual screens, or actually of 1 of my dual screen W10 systems, the other one isn't doing it.

        The laptop I'm writing this on has a micky mouse 1920x1080 ulr (ultra low res) screen and then there's a 2560x1440 32" monitor I mostly use. Everytime I open MS Edge it opens on the laptop screen regardless of where it ran last time whereas FF will open of the screen it last used. If I open the dialog for text colour in TB it opens on the crack between the two screens. Some applications will move to the laptop screen when the screen saver blanks the displays... others don't.

        There are other apps that display weird behaviour on this PC with dual screens.

    2. crypt1

      What's wrong with the GUI?

      It's virtually identical to Windows 10 and the smart tiles are off by default on Enterprise (business) versions of Windows. On home versions you just drag left to permanently collapse the smart tiles on the Start Menu.

      Here's what the typical Windows 10 business GUI looks like:

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNH5IT3XAAA988I.png

      I'm not saying Windows 10 is perfect but there's nothing wrong with the GUI in my opinion.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        FAIL

        "What's wrong with the GUI?"

        I don't have enough time or editing space to respond to this one. Best summary is 2D FLATSO FLUGLY. I don't need windows 1.01's UI on my 2017 computer, thanks, with borders too thin to see (so that re-sizing is difficult), "the METRO" look [blinding white backgrounds and too much wasted white-space - blue light is BAD for your macula!], REMOVED customization options, and so on. TLDR already, you know?

        "Here's what the typical Windows 10 business GUI looks like"

        Thanks, there are enough pictures of FECES on the intarwebs already. I don't need to view it to know it will STINK ON ICE.

        Enjoy your GUI. I don't.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        > I'm not saying Windows 10 is perfect but there's nothing wrong with the GUI in my opinion.

        Not much wrong after installing Classic Shell, that is. Apart from the flat look and various shades of grey which I still find makes it harder to zero in on GUI elements (I keep a _lot_ of windows open).

        And yes Enterprise is OK - have it on the work laptop (with Classic Shell). But software released 6 years on from the dawn of W7 and should be more than just "OK".

        Actually: no it shouldn't; the days of significant functional improvement are over. Sadly it seems the same is true for Linux and Mac, too.

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          the days of significant functional improvement are over. Sadly it seems the same is true for Linux and Mac, too.
          Which is presumably why the trend is removing functionality.

        2. Updraft102 Silver badge

          There needs to be an easy way to vanquish the retina-searing expanses of white. With Vista and 7, this could be accomplished by selecting the Classic theme and setting the background color to whatever you want it to be. Using Classic has several drawbacks, but at least it can be done simply.

          Starting with Windows 8, it's not possible anymore. Classic is gone; unless you use one of the awful high-contrast themes, there's no ability to change colors anymore. Windows 10 is worse than 7; 7 has white backgrounds, and that's awful, but 10 has white... everything. And there's no (easy, officially supported) way of changing it. You have to use a third-party hack to enable non-MS themes and find a theme that works better for you... good luck with that if you try; I didn't have much luck. I had to make my own, which required that I first learn how to do it. I put in a lot more hours than is even remotely reasonable just to get non-white backgrounds.

          I've tried adjusting the contrast, gamma, and brightness on the monitor in order to subdue the white's intensity, but by the time I get the white to an acceptable level, any darker elements fade into the black. Videos are nearly unwatchable; they're too dark to be useful. I haven't found a combination of settings that will subdue the white without making darker stuff just a blob of black.

          If I can't use the PC without wearing sunglasses even though I am indoors, it's a pretty poor UI. One size doesn't fit all. Customizability is more than just a neat thing to have that is the equivalent of putting a flower vase or other personal effects on my desk at work... sometimes, it's essential, even if that does mess up Microsoft's ever-important branding effort.

  10. Planty Bronze badge
    Stop

    Employee says Windows 10 has always been unfit for business users

    Employee says, the mobile OS bodged to work on a big screen had always been unsuitable for real work and has urged businesses everywhere to consider the needs of the company before the wishes of Microsoft..

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Win7 not fit for business?

    Heh.

    Our company (which is based in Germany as it happens) IT department just did a survey of end users asking which version of Windows they require. Not a single (!) user asked for Windows 10, even though [or may be because] many people ended up with WX installations at home during the last year's forced march.

    At the same time, a significant minority of users asked for various Linux flavours, which wasn't even on the list of OSes the IT was offering to support.

    1. GingerOne

      Re: Win7 not fit for business?

      What kind of crazy-ass company do you work for? More to the point what sort of crazy-ass IT director do you have? Offering people a choice of OS? WTF? How are we meant to support that?

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Win7 not fit for business?

        "More to the point what sort of crazy-ass IT director do you have?"

        One that matches IT's provision to business requirements.

      2. David Nash Silver badge

        Re: Win7 not fit for business?

        "Offering people a choice of OS?"

        (S)He didn't say they would get what they wanted, it was a survey.

  12. Doc Ock
    Coat

    Yes Microsoft, about these features in Windows 10 professional (you know, for business) that you keep removing and making it more like home but keep charging a premium for that product.....

    Oh I see you want to stuff me for an even more expensive enterprise licence.

    In this life, one thing counts

    In the bank, large amounts

    I'm afraid these don't grow on trees,

    You've got to pick-a-pocket or two

    You've got to pick-a-pocket or two, boys,

    You've got to pick-a-pocket or two.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    FUD, FUD

    Glorious FUD, there's nothing quite like it for boiling the blood!

    1. TRT Silver badge

      Re: FUD, FUD

      Given the last comment should that be FUD, glorious FUD, Hot sausage and mustard...

      1. MrT

        Re: FUD, FUD

        Schnitzengruben, you say? Sorry, 15's my limit... (~1:30)

        Where's the vitamin E at?

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: FUD, FUD

        FUD, eggs, sausage and FUD, that's not got much FUD in it!

  14. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "encourage businesses to keep using PCs, a challenge given five years of sinking sales."

    Keeping using and keeping buying are two different things.

    1. Boothy

      Indeed.

      People (marketeers) still seem to try to compare the current PC market, to the one 15+ years ago.

      Back then a 2 or 3 year old PC could be replaced by a similarly priced new one, that would likely be twice as fast as the one it replaced, and with software getting more bloated advance, the performance jump was usually quite noticeable, and generally financially justifiable.

      These days a typical mid-range PC (i.e. typical business use laptop), won't be much faster than one from 4 (or more) years ago. The main changes in recent years being focused on power savings, rather than increasing actual computational power.

      A quick look at my now venerable business only use laptop, a T420 from mid 2011, sporting an i5 @ 2.5GHz, with 8GB of RAM. Compare that to a new shiny T560, and it too has an i5, which runs at 2.8GHz (but only comes with 4GB RAM! But does have a slightly faster HDD (SSD only in the top end i7 model)).

      Granted it's a newer gen i5, but a quick look at some CPU benchmarks and there is perhaps a 10-15% increase in performance, this after ~6 years of CPU development!

      Almost all changes in the last 10 years (other than SSDs) have been minor incremental improvements.

      I was told years ago that unless the 'new' device was at least 50% faster than the current device, a typical end user wouldn't actually notice the difference.

      Cost (including the effort to reinstall everything), to move to a new PC/laptop, just isn't justifiable with current devices (power users being the likely only exception).

      At this rate, people are likely to keep their current PCs/laptops for at least 5 years min, perhaps over 10 years, or until they physically break. Which also means most users will still with the OS that came on the device.

      The World has changed Mr Marketeer, get used to it!

      1. MJI Silver badge

        machine performance

        Well

        Quite a while ago we bought a hot home PC, top end Pentium 4, went like stink (at the time). Current OS on the market was XP SP1, so that should place the date.

        Anyway got replaced at home a few years ago by a quad core, not long after my work PC chucked its hard drive, I could not get my old work PC working (found out eventually due to SP2 flaws), so as it was during the last recession to save money I grabbed my old home PC, pinched the work PC RAM and was running the fastest and oldest PC at work.

        The dual core celeryon, left in the dust.

        Last used this PC about a year ago, still works, still not that slow, over 10 years old.

        Our quad is not that much slower than my sons games PCs.

        Old PCs are perfectly workable still

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      "Keeping using and keeping buying are two different things."

      YES!

  15. arobertson1

    I seriously couldn't care less about Windows now - I've been using Linux pretty much all the time for over a year. It's got to the stage where I have forgotten what's it's like to have the OS crap out on me / piss about with something until it works. Heck, I even have free time at the weekends! Windows 10 is the death of Microsoft - never going back now. Why did I ever put up with all their shoddy software in the first place?

    1. Primus Secundus Tertius Silver badge

      @arobertson1

      I guess you did not use MS Access. Probably only serious data analysts really need it, but there is nothing like it in Linux. Libre Office database is a child's effort in comparison.

      1. arobertson1

        @Lotus Primus Secundus Tertius

        You're right, I don't have MS Access. However, I also don't have Altos Adventure, Asphalt 8 Airborne, Candy Crush Soda Saga, Farmville Country Escape, Minecraft, Royal Revolt 2, Snapfish, TuneIn Radio.... or any other crap installed without my consent either. I think I prefer the Linux "child's effort" over the Windows "child's effort". If I want a games machine, I'll buy an Xbox.

        1. MJI Silver badge

          Games Machine

          Actually I would choose a Playstation rather than a Xbox, no offence to Phil Spencer

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "I guess you did not use MS Access. Probably only serious data analysts really need it, but there is nothing like it in Linux."

        There are quite a few relational databases available for Linux. Are you saying Access is nothing like a relational database?

        1. MJI Silver badge

          MS Access

          Is a toy, who would use that?

        2. Primus Secundus Tertius Silver badge

          It is not just the relational database itself that matters, but also the facilities that come with it. I am thinking specifically of the way Access can move fields from large records into separate tables. This means, for example, that city and county names can be defined just once and used consistently. So if you are inheriting a clunky old data set, you can sharpen it up.

          Libre Office database can do the relational joins, but not the data reforming.

          Yes, Access is OK for one or two users but not an office with 20 users. You then use Oracle, SQL Server, DB2, ... I believe SQL Server does have various tools. Maybe the other products do: I look forward to further comments from Reg users.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            " I am thinking specifically of the way Access can move fields from large records into separate tables. This means, for example, that city and county names can be defined just once and used consistently."

            I'd have thought that any self-respecting data analyst would have done that before creating the tables. It's called normalisation, been around for about 45 years.

            1. Primus Secundus Tertius Silver badge

              "I'd have thought that any self-respecting data analyst would have done that before creating the tables. It's called normalisation, been around for about 45 years."

              I would have thought that, too; then I had to deal with the systems I inherited. Created by ordinary office workers or business people, who do know a lot about their business but are not logicians and data analysts.

              This is the "real" world, right; though a mathematician might say it is "complex".

              MS Access makes it much easier to pick up the pieces and refashion them into your ideal normalised state.

              [No, I do not work for Microsoft, never have, and am now enjoying my retirement so never will.]

              1. Pompous Git Silver badge

                Created by ordinary office workers or business people, who do know a lot about their business but are not logicians and data analysts.

                This is the "real" world, right; though a mathematician might say it is "complex".

                BTDT and isn't retirement from it wonderful? :-)

                Odd thing here is that I worked for a business that inherited a really crap flatfile FileMaker pro database. Hired a likely lad who turned it into a relational FileMaker Pro database at a cost of less than $AU10,000. It worked well. Similar business in a nearby country hired real professionals to do a "proper" job for their DBMS. They spent $AU10 million before pulling the plug on a system that never worked.

        3. mstreet
          Meh

          Access

          Actually, I have to agree with the guy bemoaning lack of anything Access like in Linux. Best tool I ever used to whip up quick working models of a project. Got my start in IT gluing an Access front end to an old legacy DB system, that had it's previous GUI developed by someone who didn't think like a human or a machine. I actually ended up with a usable system that saved our users hours every day, before I had learned any serious IT skills at all. Not many products let you do that.

          Still wouldn't go back to Microsoft though. The occasional nostalgic smile isn't worth a fraction of the crap MS as put me through over the years.

      3. Palpy

        Serious data analysts use Access?

        I would have thought the answer would be R and / or Matlab, in conjunction with an enterprise-level DB like Sequel Server, PostgreSQL, MySQL, etc.

        Meself, I use SQLite. But I'm in the collection-and-storage side; all I have to do is suck data from the automation, store it efficiently, and run simple queries for various stats. Which I then deliver up to our data analyst, who does not use Access. (And who spits in the corner when anyone says "Excel".)

        I do understand that MS did a very cool thing with VBA. Also, of course, very dangerous; an Access VBA module can be as much an attack vector as the infamous Word macros.

        As far as Win 10 and security goes, I'll go ahead and say something sure to cue the downvotes: I suspect 10 really is more secure against non-Microsoft malware than 7. I think MS recognized that Windows faced immense pressure from attackers, and actually attempted to mitigate some attack surfaces in Win 10 (using VBS / DeviceGuard, secure boot, EMET, so forth).

        But I don't use Windows on my personal machines, because I prefer to control what runs on my hardware. As much as that is possible without building an OS from scratch, of course. Were I to do some data fiddling at home I'd go with SQLite and Python. Oh, and KST2 for graphing -- ye cats, 2 million data points on a fully scrollable, zoomable set of trendlines.

        Sorry for nattering on, it's early where I am. Blame it on the caffeine.

        1. Wensleydale Cheese Silver badge

          Beat me to it with R

          "I would have thought the answer would be R and / or Matlab, in conjunction with an enterprise-level DB like Sequel Server, PostgreSQL, MySQL, etc.

          As you say, serious data analysts look for R and / or Matlab. R can cope with more databases than you can shake a stick at, and that includes the latest NoSQL stuff.

          R doesn't suffer from Excel's nasty habit of altering data

      4. nkuk

        I thought everyone stopped using MS Access back in the '90s.

      5. Teiwaz Silver badge

        I guess you did not use MS Access. Probably only serious data analysts really need it, but there is nothing like it in Linux. Libre Office database is a child's effort in comparison.

        I'd like to think serious data analysts would get something a little more serious than Microsofts off the shelf general purpose toolkit database system.

        Libre Office is not trying to be a one size fits all on this front, it doesn't have to, it's not trying to sell as many copies as possible and muscle out the competitions in all market segments like MSOffice. It's a small office tool and not expanded beyond sanity like Access.

      6. TVU Silver badge

        "I guess you did not use MS Access. Probably only serious data analysts really need it, but there is nothing like it in Linux. Libre Office database is a child's effort in comparison"

        However, these days there are quite a few alternatives to LibreOffice including Softmaker Office (paid-for), FreeOffice and WPS Office plus access to the free online office suites offered by Google, Microsoft, Zoho and others and all of them are available to Linux users.

        Not only that, more proprietary software is also coming to Linux, e.g. VivaDesigner and PageStream (desktop publishing) and Pixeluvo and Polarr (photo editing) and that's not counting all the online apps that are available as well.

        1. Pompous Git Silver badge

          Not only that, more proprietary software is also coming to Linux, e.g. VivaDesigner and PageStream (desktop publishing)
          Viva Designer looks interesting so I have DL'd it to try. Not sure about software that needs a dongle to run the paid-for version...

      7. Adrian 4 Silver badge

        Having seen far too many projects founder when they tried to use MS Access instead of a grown-up database, I'm not surprised there's nothing like it in Linux.

      8. doke

        MS Access

        MS Access. Probably only serious data analysts really need it

        No serious data analyst would ever use a toy like MS Access. They use Teradata, Oracle, etc. For smaller things, Postgresql and Mysql are great. A real object storage system, or relational database, combined with even a little elementary script coding is far more powerful than Access.

        For other types of work, SAS or R are good. It depends on what you're doing.

        I've occasionally had to deal with "applications" that a consultant had written in Access. They were always horrible, and scaled very badly. They always seem to try to develop with test data of a few hundred rows. Then they're surprised when the business dumps in 100,000 rows, and their app falls over.

        1. sabroni Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: MS Access

          "I guess you did not use MS Access. Probably only serious data analysts really need it, but there is nothing like it in Linux. Libre Office database is a child's effort in comparison"

          For fucks sake, you Linux boys really can't spot when someone's taking the piss, can you?

        2. Primus Secundus Tertius Silver badge

          Re: MS Access

          Particularly in the voluntary sector there are many data sets of just a few hundred or a few thousand rows. I did say in an earlier comment that an office of 20 people using a serious-sized system would need a full scale database. Even then, Access is useful for design and prototype work, and for client side rather than server side in large systems.

  16. Nolveys Silver badge
    Devil

    Anyone Else Here Still On XP?

    "Awh, don't listen to them, girl, you're not that old." /me scratches XP box on its mangy surface, its hind leg twitches happily as a little pee comes out.

    1. MrKrotos

      Re: Anyone Else Here Still On XP?

      "Anyone Else Here Still On XP?"

      Hahahaha! good luck with that!

    2. MJI Silver badge

      Re: Anyone Else Here Still On XP?

      I converted our XP PC from double boot to triple boot recently

      Now has 7 as well.

      (Other boot is Linux Mint)

      XP gets most use

      1. Boothy

        Re: Anyone Else Here Still On XP?

        Don't have any machines running XP native anymore, but I do have it in a VM for the rare occasion when needed (usually some ancient legacy game that is so it it won't run in 7).

        It's like visiting an old friend, doesn't mater how longs it's been since you last saw each other, you know exactly what's what and it feels like home again!

  17. Mikel

    He'll say the same about Windows 10 soon enough

    All Windows vendors have the same cognitive delay. For them to realize a version of Windows is unfit for purpose it has to be unavailable for sale.

  18. Nimby
    Thumb Down

    Not sure which was worse, the town crier or his parrot?

    "Microsoft Germany says Windows 7 already unfit for business users"

    Shame Microsoft has not made anything capable of replacing it with yet. I use 8 at work and 10 at home and have to say, I prefer them in reverse order of their version number. 10 is especially bad. EVERY time there is a Windows Update, next startup the PC is unusable for 10 minutes or more! It will not even CTRL+SHFT+ESC to tell me what is sucking up the resources. I am 100% certain it is a system scan of some kind from MS. (And this with an M.2 OS drive and a 4-disk RAID5 array for storage.) And believe me, that is not the only problem, just one of many.

    "At the same time, it also needs to encourage businesses to keep using PCs, a challenge given five years of sinking sales."

    Personally I am thinking that if someone does not know the difference between "use of" and "needless replacement of" then that itself is a sad testament to the quality of the article. Just because a PC still runs fine does not mean that it is not used.

  19. Bob Camp

    There's nothing wrong with Windows 10 Enterprise for businesses. It even has an LTSB version so you don't get updates, just security and other bug fixes. And even the Pro version lets you defer feature upgrades for months if you want.

    What the real problem is, is businesses trying to use a Home edition in a Pro or Enterprise environment to save a little money. The Home version is tailored towards the home user, period. It has "features" (major annoyances) that aren't at all appropriate for a work environment. I think people who work out of their home should use the Pro version. Even IT people should use the Pro version on their home PCs, because they generally know what they are doing and it gets rid of almost all of their complaints about the Home version, which they mistake as general Windows 10 problems.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      re: There's nothing wrong with Windows 10 Enterprise for businesses.

      Other than it has only comparatively recently been released, which is perhaps the real reason why MS are keen to start rubbishing Win7 - business run a lot of Win7 and thus MS are looking for them to start migrating rather than wait until 2020...

      What the real problem is, is businesses trying to use a Home edition in a Pro or Enterprise environment to save a little money.

      The trouble is that for many small businesses they don't understand the need for or have the need for full blown enterprise licensing etc. and before the daftness of Win10 were quite happily serviced via visits to PC World et al. So this is a problem MS have created.

  20. mstreet

    I wonder...

    I wonder how many companies are in the same boat as mine. We have loads of agreements relating to storing our clients data. An upgrade to windows 10 will nullify almost all of those agreements, so isn't going to happen...ever. As long as MS insists on their current business model, we have no choice but to end our 30+ year use of their products, and seek out alternatives.

    I can't help but think MS's policy is absurdly self-harming, in that they seemed to embark upon the policy, at exactly the time real alternatives are finally available.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: I wonder...

        A small doctor office or clinic that can't afford to run the Enterprise version is legally required to maintain patient record confidentiality. A small private school might qualify for the Educational edition ... You know, all those supposedly private records about children? Yeah, Those.

        It is much much worse than that!

        Do you hold any positions of trust (paid/unpaid/voluntary) where you work with children and/or other vulnerable groups, eg. sports coach, youth group helper etc., where you had to be records checked and screened prior to appointment? If your answer is yes then you need to think very carefully about what records you do keep and where you keep them and to whom you grant access. Obviously, with versions of windows prior to 10 (and without the telemetry enhancements) you could use your home PC; with Win10 (and Win7/8 with the telemetry additions) it is not so simple...

  21. TVU Silver badge

    Microsoft Germany says Windows 7 already unfit for business users

    It's all very well to point out Windows 7's vulnerabilities but how many enterprises will voluntarily upgrade to Windows 10 before time given the ongoing update-induced instabilities and the cluttered and sucky interface?

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    OS Tax

    Windows 10 is a taxation system for MS

    No service is for free..just you wait and find out but, by then, it's too late.

  23. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge
    Flame

    Blaming an inanimate object

    Windows 7 “can no longer keep up with the increased security requirements” of the mid-2010s.

    It's Microsoft that won't keep up, not Windows 7 that can't.

  24. Adrian 4 Silver badge

    Microsoft Germany says Windows already unfit for business users

    FTFY

  25. Asterix the Gaul

    M$ are getting desperate on W10 market share.

    Think about it for a millisecond, a company trashes the reputation of one of it's (better)products(W7), in order to sell more of it's more recent rubbish.

    How do they expect to push sales on their products, when all they do is out the lack of quality in them.

    I was using W7 before W8 came out, I predicted the failure of that & I also predicted that M$ would 'clone' Apple's business model to suit themselves.

    To my knowledge, M$ couldn't run a boot fair stall profitably, judging it by it's acquisitions over the last decade or two.

  26. EnviableOne Bronze badge

    W10 works great when you use GP to lock down all the Features (working on Pro at Home)

    but with some houses still trying to get rid of XP, especially in industries with bespoke software and long regulatory delays, w10 is just not even an option yet.

  27. Pompous Git Silver badge

    @ DonL re InDesign under Wine

    Something else you missed. While the rental version of InDesign runs under Wine, it doesn't support exporting to PDF. Since reputable bureaus insist on PDF for printing, or making film, that renders the program to all intents and purposes useless without renting Acrobat Pro as well and that only rates Silver under Wine.

  28. tdarcos

    Let's get off Microsoft schedule and on our own

    More and more, this constant, expensive scheduled operating system forced upgrade treadmill exclusively for the profit of Microsoft Corporation and our detriment tells us we need to start demanding software vendors make their applications available for other operating systems, either Linux or BSD, or we need to get more resources into the hands of the WINE windows compatibility system for other operating systems. Allowing Microsoft to keep squeezing us for planned obsolescence on their schedule is no way to live

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