As long as Win10 continues to be a piece of spyware...
I won't let it anywhere near my pc or laptop...
Windows 10's market share has stalled, according to all three of the traffic-measurement tools The Register tracks at the start of each month. Our three sources are Netmarketshare, StatCounter and analytics.usa.gov. All three investigate web traffic to determine operating system prevalence, with the third source only …
I've got it, it came with my laptop, have ordered win 7 though.
I did think I would try win 10 inbetween since it came with the laptop, the annoying thing is it could be a reasonable OS apart form the fact it's microssofts OS and not mine.
At least this the impression I got, greyed out options to unistall things like xbox link, bing news etc, you have to do it by powershell, and then first major update they restore it all. WTF? Let alone the spying which means you end up crippling some of the bits that would make it a good OS otherwise. You can't trust any of these changes are not going to be reverted in the next update, which you can't stop so you have to start again.
There's no way I'd pay for it (and I once paid for Vista!), for the reasons above.
I'd like my computer back to feeling like it's mine tbh, so Win 7 and Linux are going on.
Bought two Lenovo Laptops this week, they came with Win7 pro "free" if you ordered Win 10 pro,
Whatever about the "regular" versions, Vista Home and Win 10 Home at least seem like crippleware.
I see MS has only just ceased OEM Win 7 sales.
One at least will "dual boot" to Linux Mint + Mate, I hope (no SSD).
Oh probably, but I need some sort of OS I can use, while getting myself up to speed on Linux, and figuring out what programs run things well like getting AUTOCAD working properly on Linux and such means I need something I can use now.
I don't have the time to spend mucking around with Linux straight off the bat at the moment, the time spent on that get's in the way of the time spent earning cash to pay my bills etc.
There are valid reasons to use 7 instead of 10, I just don't believe that trusting Microsoft not to spy on you if you stick to 7 is not one of them.
There is also the issue that Microsoft seem to want all professionals to use pro versions, rather than small businesses being able to get away with home like on 7 or XP.
Dual boot is easy with a fresh install. Install Windows partitioning the drive and leaving some empty. Then install Mint and it gives dual boot options.
The only fiddly bit is making it use the last chosen boot option, rather than Linux. (edit a file then run a command). I needed to do this, not for windows, but because I wanted to use the low-latency kernel for better audio quality, and I didn't want to dive through menus each time (Windows is in the top menu anyway.)
You seem to be missing the bit were I pointed out I need a working OS while I learn Linux to an adequate degree to switchover.
Never said I trust it, I trust it more than Win 10 is what I am saying.
The setting up Linux for dual boot is frankly a peice of piss, the making sure it runs AUTOCAD for example nicely and doesn't bork out 3 hrs into a drawing well thats different... Or even setting it up so it runs nicely, lot's of buggering about and not much spare time to do so at the moment, refer back to point 1. Like any software I'd rather test it a bit first.
On my W7 PCs I have uninstalled all the known "spyware" updates via the command line. I now only allow "Security" updates. The rest of the pre-ticked list get unticked and hidden - even though I know some of them are like zombies and will re-appear already ticked next time.
On my W7 PCs I have uninstalled all the known "spyware" updates via the command line. I now only allow "Security" updates. The rest of the pre-ticked list get unticked and hidden
Remember... from now on, updates to Win7/8.x are being delivered as monolithic combined packages. No more picking-and-choosing. You WILL get the telemetry patches. Resistance is futile.
For WIN games, there is dual boot.
For everything else there is VirtualBox. (or WINE)
My WIN XP VM restores from 'saved machine state' in under 4 seconds. I have enough RAM to leave it permanently running, though I dont.
That's way quicker than rebooting to windows, which might be at least a minute, and with no possibility of cutting and pasting between linux/windows environments.
will most likely go the way of horseless carriages
Erm, horseless carriages (cars) were and are wildly successful. I think any business would be delighted to go the way of horseless carriages. Or did you mean something else (horsed carriages (previously known as carriages) perhaps?)
No it isn't I donate to Linux projects all the time.
Ive probably paid more for Linux than ive ever paid for Windows. Im damn proud of that.
Im sure a lot of other people here are the same.
I also don't care that scrounging freetards never pay. Its up to them. I just hate that they think what they're getting is free...it's not...some of us help fund it.
Not all Linux users are freetards. But all freetards are Linux users.
You won't get much love here if you think most Linux users / contributors are spongers.
We're the most generous bunch in tech. We expect no dividends or interest on our investments and we don't demand vast databases of user info in return either.
We just want Linux.
"users won't adopt it if they have to pay for it"
There is truth to your comment: there are plenty of users who associate "open source software" with "free software", and that 'free' is free as in beer.
Note how they all manage to receive donations in order to carry on their work? Hosting software isn't free, hosting a website not so much either and here we are: I can visit those websites and my ad blocker doesn't have to block one single ad.
As you can see the FreeBSD foundation even managed to raise $270,000 worth of donations (at the time of writing). That's all coming from people and companies who care for the project, who realize that they can be saving money by using it and then spending some of that money on the project itself.
Please note: the only reason I focus on the FreeBSD foundation is because this is my personal favorite, but my story holds true for all the other foundations as well (main difference is that I have no idea about their current funds).
Windows 7 is *excellent*. Why would I want to change it? I have Windows 10 on my work PC, and, well, it's okay I guess, but the flat user interface just leaves me asking "why?" and continually moving things around in the OS (how many times has the freaking control panel been re-vamped over the years? Stop mucking about MS, FFS) requires me to puzzle-solve, instead of getting my work done.
No pervasive reason to upgrade 10, sorry. ESPECIALLY if you an oldish machine. My personal laptop is a 32-bit Toshiba Tecra M5 with 4GB RAM and a 256GB SSD drive. I bought in 2005 IIRC. It runs Win 7 beautifully.
It also runs Linux Mint beautifully (dual boot), which will probably become my home-use OS at some point in the future, as it's getting easier to install applications in Linux (still a bit of a ball ache though, compared to windows) and there's a great range of free software available that does everything your average home user needs and a whole lot more.
I'm still waiting for printer manufacturers to develop printer drivers for Linux!
I'm still waiting for printer manufacturers to develop printer drivers for Linux!
Best solved by choosing a printer with Linux support. They exist from most major vendors. Given that low-end printers now cost about the same as an ink refill, if your current printer does not support Linux, it is not a big hardship to buy one that does. Eventually the rest of the vendors might get the message.
I do need to print - and am not able/willing to change the otherwise perfectly good printer that the family shares. So I removed my Mint dual-boot and went back to just using Win 10. Would I have updated from 7 to 10 if I didn't want to see what 10 was all about? Probably not.
As to their spying - well compared to Google/Android it's nothing to bother me. Functional changes that make it less usable bother me more. The less than perfect Win 7 start menu was removed in 8 instead of improving it. Then brought back in 10 with the failings of 7 emphasised - so that keeping it organised to make finding programmes by function is harder, not easier. And I see no advantages in Win 10 that make up for that. It does nothing that Win 7 didn't do perfectly well. It simply replaces the fiasco of Win 8.x with a version that works.
Re Linux Mint as a home OS, I long ago abandoned having a printer at home. Too expensive and took up a whole bunch of room for almost no benefit. Online print-and-delivery works fine and is cost-effective. Granted there is the once-a-year or so boarding-card printed in the office but other than that, I suffer no pangs for the departed ink/$$$ vampire,
"I'm still waiting for printer manufacturers to develop printer drivers for Linux!"
I'm suprised. I've had 3 lasers (Epson, Brother and Samsung) since ~1998 - all worked with Linux without any issues. I also have a second-hand, cheap Epson inkjet scanner/printer which also works without any probs.
"as it's getting easier to install applications in Linux (still a bit of a ball ache though, compared to windows)"
Don't recognize the problem. For my distro of choice (OpenSUSE) just select from the vast array of progs in YAST2 GUI and install as many as you want in 1 go or from SUSE software webpage install with 1-click install. For Raspberry pi fairly similar process using the (GUI) Synaptic manager.
"Don't recognize the problem. For my distro of choice (OpenSUSE) just select from the vast array of progs in YAST2 GUI and install as many as you want in 1 go or from SUSE software webpage install with 1-click install. For Raspberry pi fairly similar process using the (GUI) Synaptic manager."
Let me see you install Fallout 4, Dragon Age; Origins or Skyrim Special Edition in "one click" ... :)
If you're going to complain about Linux not playing recent games at least choose good ones.
(Ok, I'm asking for downvotes there. Most of those games are good, just feel a little let down how each generation cuts content without adding features except shinier graphics and more pew pew. Hopefully I'll get all my indie games working in Linux later today... just waiting for the net to get reconnected.)
Pointless change without consulting users: It's a compulsion the OS makers have.
I have to use machines with various OSes, Apple & Microsoft both change interface features / behaviour needlessly seemingly just for the hell of it.
It's not just big changes such as (disliked by some) flat 10 look, lots of little irritating things can really annoy users.
e.g. on Macs no longer have the old right click menu, now need additional key press to activate that behaviour - I'm always getting hit by this switching between different flavours of Mac.
As has been said (forthisisnotdead) the perennial messing with Control Panel across Windows versions, again a small thing but irritating.
It would be really nice to use different versions of an OS (from same manufacturer) and be able to achieve a task using exactly the same mouse / key strokes on each instead of having to think OK, its version Z, so to do what I want on this version I take this set of steps.
It is probably less irritating if someone always uses the same OS version, but there's plenty of us where that's not the case & consistency across versions would hellp a lot.
Generally you will find that (1) any postscript printer works just fine, and (2) most HP models work fine (if you can forgive them over the recent deliberate stuffing of 3rd party ink cartridges that is).
So the quickest test is will it work on a Mac? If so it probably will for Linux, but a little bit of looking around will often show user's experience of the whole thing, for example: https://www.openprinting.org/printers
>" (2) most HP models with PCL support work fine"
HP buys companies from time to time, occasionally even printer companies. To my understanding only these recent acquisitions lack Linux printer support, and only for a short time. In servers (Compaq) and printers HP Linux support has always been leading, not following. It is their consumer and client tat that seems willing to require the Beast.
You could buy a cheap Linux compatible printer. Or you buy a damned fine one that will last for years that has Linux support.
I have a Laserjet 4050 at home. Bought in 1999 and it is still going strong. Never had to replace a single component. Works flawlessly with Linux via an old school Jet Direct.
It does about 30,000 pages per toner cartridge which means Ill replace a cartridge once every 2 or 3 decades...maybe. Ive got another 5 stashed away that I picked up for buttons about 4 years ago. So my great grandchildren are taken care of.
I also have a couple of maintenance kits if somehow this warrior breaks. Its been through 3 house moves and dropped down two staircases. It won't die. Its the Jason Vorhees of printers.
HP used to make amazing kit. You can still buy the 4050 on ebay for £50. Do it. Do it now.
Anyone that buys brand new printers is a bloody idiot. The golden age has gone, the manufacturers know this which is why modern printers are crap.
The 4100 was badass as well. It all went to shit with the 4200.
If you need colour printing the 2600 is badass as well. I had one of those for ages. I got shot of it when I realised I never printed in colour plus toner was getting hard to find for it. Genuine stuff anyway.
I'm still waiting for printer manufacturers to develop printer drivers for Linux!
You dont need a 'printer driver' for linux. It already exists as CUPS.
What you need are PPDS.
And if you have a winprinter that you bought for $20, then I argue that isn't a printer at all.
The only thing that is impressive about Windows 1 0 is how it did not reach 70% market share in the first six months of its release.
Every single version of Windows has been trumpeted as the fastest-selling version ever (except Vista*, which was the mongrel dog right from the start).
This free (for a year) version has not even managed to capture a quarter of the total market and that is being touted as a success ? It took SIX MONTHS for it to take over XP, for Pete's sake.
There is nothing about Windows 1 0 that can be touted as a success. Not its bloody interface, not its shameful, ham-fisted-down-our-throats, borderline malware-type distribution, and certainly not its "rise".
* no, I haven't forgotten ME. Nobody mentions ME. It is being erased from all family pictures as we speak and will, in time, be erased from all web pages as well.
>The only thing that is impressive about Windows 1 0 is how it did not reach 70% market share in the first six months of its release.
> It took SIX MONTHS for it to take over XP, for Pete's sake.
Yes, and that was by the forceps ... with malware-inspired tactics to get you to upgrade ...
Exactly. It's not so much "Windows 10 market share stalls after free upgrade offer ends" as "after forced upgrade 'offer you can't refuse since you won't be given the choice in the first place' ends".
In short, most of those users were Terryed up the arse against their will and MS *still* couldn't get the market share above 25%.
"I haven't forgotten ME. Nobody mentions ME. It is being erased from all family pictures as we speak and will, in time, be erased from all web pages as well."
sorta like the way certain pharoahs had their cartouche 'obliterated' by successors. Windows [obliterated] was the bastard stepchild of '98, supposedly a steppingstone to XP. More of a stumbling block, or a very deep pothole.
Win-10-nic should be looked at the same way, the "stumbling block" or "very deep pothole" [instead of stepping stone] to MICROSOFT! DOMINANCE! UBER! ALLES!!!
Otherwise, *WHY* kill 7's presence in the market? It was *SELLING* !!!
When it's pushed with a huge dialog, then disguised as a security update, then you're given the options of updating now or updating tonight, then then close button programs the update, it's going to get installed on loads of machines. Then when all that stops hardly anyone installs it, which is what would have happened if they hadn't pushed it.
" free upgrade offer"
Free .... no, they get to put all sorts of telemetry on your machine ...
Upgrade .... not necessarily true, in several areas have seen win10 seem more like a downgrade ...
Offer ... hmm, "nice PC you have there, shame if something happened to it" is an offer of one particular kind, I suppose .....
"When we stop forcibly installing it on machines, sometimes against your will, we don't get as many installs of it!"?
There's a reason that a batch of WSUS updates on my server are blocked because I *have* seen it install, even in domain environments, necessitating a re-image to get rid of it properly. Despite all the claims, it does what it damn well likes, especially if there's a user around who might click on a button or two without watching (or even, working in schools, "just to see what would happen, Sir").
Stop foisting stuff on me, and make stuff that I choose to foist upon myself.
Especially as my Server licensing is now per-core for reasons I cannot fathom.
" if you want a fair CPU power based charging model"
WHY _anyone_ would want a MICRO-SHAFT SERVER "operating system" is BEYOND ME.
That goes double with the availability of RHEL (if you need the support), and CentOS (if you can manage it yourself), not to mention every OTHER Linux distro out there that has a lot of support for 'Enterprise' things...
does RHEL do per-core / per-cpu / per-seat licensing like Micro-shaft? Just wondering, as to the best of my knowledge they do NOT.
Then again, I mentioned that CentOS is *free*
As others have said, I'm not surprised at this news. Microsoft knew there were going to be problems after the XP to 7 resistance, which was why it became a malware pusher in order to force users on to Win 10.
What they actually needed to do was make a product that users wanted. One that doesn't spy on them (or at least allows the user to choose to block ALL spying), and doesn't try to change itself without the user's consent (NO forced updates AT ALL). If the rest of the OS was then designed and coded to actually be a joy to use and control, then users would flock to it. Instead they've sought out alternatives: some like me to Linux Mint; others to Apple; still others ditching PCs altogether and just using their oversized smart phone or tablet.
With Win 10 as it stands (as a designed-to-use-cloud-and-force-users-to-do-so OS, instead of cloud being a choice for the user), Microsoft are the designers of their own demise.
You forgot to mention the crippleware in terms of borking Windows 7 Updates (which is still there out of the box) unless you know what you are doing. Subtle, but that will prevent a quite a few (re)instaling Windows 7SP1 from scratch. For 12 months, Windows 7 updates didn't work (which seems as though that was done on purpose now).
I really enjoy watching the Windows 10 train wreck from the comfort of my Linux Mint installation.
I do still have Windows 7 - as a dual boot with Mint with W7 at SP1 level only and no Internet access allowed whatsoever seeing as MS is now trying new tactics to get their spywa.... oops, telemetry onto W7 machines with their new monthly 'all or nothing' Windows Update rollups.
Really nice not having to try and figure out which update is this month's 'magic patch' which stops the hours long wait for a list of W7 updates to even appear these days (and then more hours wasted waiting for the updates to install) - assuming nothing goes wrong which it frequently does with MS's updates lately.
And, really nice not having to constantly update antivirus, antispyware and antigoodness knows what else on a daily basis.
Oh, and MS - good luck trying to get any information from my permanently offline W7 installation.
...All the people saying they'd never let Windows 10 near their kit because of the data slurping - how many use Facebook, or Google, for example?
I'm sure here at el reg, the percentage is reasonably small, but I'm curious what makes people so anti-MS (for this specific thing) yet merrily give their lives away to the others?
Windows 10 spying was proven to be nothing more than an overblown Reddit post about THE SAME DATA COLLECTION as every other version of Windows performs anyway.
Seriously, it collects nothing more than anything else ever did. If you're paranoid about 10 and not Vista, 7, or 8, then you're an idiot.
And if you're worried about data collection, that's why you use an external firewall rather than a piece of junky software running on the same machine that it's trying to protect.
If you genuinely don't want data getting out, don't let Windows talk out.
That means, if you haven't heard of ncsi.txt, then you have no idea what you're supposedly blocking or allowing out.
Hint: I use ncsi.txt as a primitive theft-talk-home method for machines under my control as you can configure where it talks home to.
For NCSI? Same way as on any previous version of Windows. Registry or group policy (local included).
Devices and printer images? Same.
Windows Update? Same, or at the firewall as always.
Just because there's not a nice GUI interface doesn't mean you can't disable it. And it doesn't mean it's alone in that among the THOUSANDS of hidden Windows settings for everything else. If you've ever deployed GPO, you'll be amazed how much stuff there is you can turn off that you can't do other ways, and how much even GPO doesn't cover so you have to make your own Administrative Template to do it.
How do you disable the accessibility button on the login screen, which can be used to make the login screen almost unreadable and most people won't be able to put it back? Like everything Windows, the "official" way isn't a one-click setting in control panel, just like all the things you mentioned.
But they're all still there in the Registry, in the same places, available on freeware tweak utilities, etc.
Did you know that you can't add a keyboard language if you disable Windows Search service? Try it.
It doesn't mean 10 is any worse in this regard than ANY OTHER VERSION. Windows 7/8 does not have a settings box anywhere but the registry for NCSI, for instance. And if you want to enforce that settings, you're not going to rely on remembering to click a box, you'll enforce settings via GPO, a tweaker utility, or a bunch of Regedit scripts.
Just because it's not one-click doesn't mean you can't do it if you want to.
It's not just the data collection.
It insists on re-install of things like Bing news, and the Xbox app, if i do not want them I should not have them forced upon me, and also they should not make them bloody awkward to unistall.
It has apps you have to disable in the background (and they are ones i do not want - see above) otherwise it kills your bandwidth, noticed this when at home, my other PC was freezing playing the TV.
Now I know you can go through and disable all this, I did then the anniversary update re-installed the buggers. They have tweaked the pro version to stop you being able to edit certain parts of the group policy editor to stop this shit*, even though a lot of people would have bought pro for these sort of reasons.
You can't stop the updates, you can't choose what updates you want and you can't trust the updates. A OS that has been paid for should not do this.
Win7 is nowhere near as bad. (yet I guess, lets see what happens now with the updates from them).
"I'm curious what makes people so anti-MS (for this specific thing) yet merrily give their lives away to the others?"
I can only assume that just because people are fine with being seen in public they are in no hurry to rip off all their curtains to achieve the same "transparency" in what is the equivalent of the privacy of their homes.
"...what makes people so anti-MS (for this specific thing) yet merrily give their lives away to the others?"
Easy peasy: You can choose what you send to Twitter or Facebook and what you search with Google. There are less "spookey" alternatives to those programs -e.g. DuckDuckGo and OSS social networking apps- but you can't block/evade spyware bundled with the OS, more so when you can't trust MS upgrades. It's like the difference between a turnpike and a band of roaming highwaymen.
To put it short, everything you do with the OS - usually including personal data/intellectual property/sensible information - can be sent to MS to be "monetized", i.e. sold to the highest bidder.
I have Win10 in a VM, and the network card is disabled. I turned off as much of the slurping as I could at installation. I know there will be a request for Win10 sooner or later, and I just want to be prepared. I'm also noting all of the privacy issues so I can present a balanced case when the request comes.
its easier than that. I just say that I wont support Windows 10 as I know nothing about it, which is a slight fib, since I looked several times and decided I'm not playing Microsoft's game any more, since it spent all its time telling me I couldn't do what I wanted or trying to force me into new accounts and rubbish like that.
This is also having the effect of stopping the friends of a friend who knows you work in IT from asking me to fix their now not working properly "free upgraded" Windows 10 box. Odd how the conversation goes along the lines of "Wow, you're brave with all the data slurping of your personal data and cloud stuff"
Windows 7 was where I got off the merry go round. For me, its Windows 7 and Linux.
Much more free time, much less faffing around doing free support for people.
From the graphs, it looks very much like the majority of ex-MS customers are doing similar things. Less than a third of machine running the freebie, even after all the pushing and shoving.
Then they kill off the old Win 7 licences in the market - brave or stupid - will be interesting to see the market in 2 years time.
"Then they kill off the old Win 7 licences in the market [...]"
I bought a few spare copies of W7 - although too late to get full retail ones. Some of the decommissioned P4 PCs here have full retail licences which theoretically can be re-assigned.
Even have a small stock of spare "fast enough cpu" motherboards - and a couple of spare Dell W7 "business" laptops that were glutting ebay a while back. Linux Mint will eventually take care of my browsing and email on the laptop.
That just leaves one online application that would be time-consuming to convert. However a recent Chrome update has just broken the Excel/Selenium Web Drive mechanism - so that may be the end of it on Windows anyway.
That is nothing new at all. The percentage of Windows OS sales to private retail customers intending to install it on an existing pc running the previous iteration has always been a vanishingly small percentage of Windows' turnover. The overwhelming proportion of sales of Windows licenses to the private sector has always been driven by the purchase of new PCs.
"The overwhelming proportion of sales of Windows licenses to the private sector has always been driven by the purchase of new PCs."
So the lack of growth is due to lack of purchases of new PCs. But it used to be the case that a new version of OS used to trigger purchases of new PCs. Recent versions of Windows seem to have changed that behaviour.
Up to and including Windows Vista each successive iteration of Redmond's OS virtually mandated a new pc (or a significant hardware upgrade) in order for it to run with anything like decent performance. Microsoft's minimum recommended specs were always a bad joke given that a on a machine that had those specs the iteration concerned could just about get out of bed. It was always the case that you needed substantially higher specs in order to get reasonably acceptable performance. This changed with Win 7. For the first time if you had a box which had ok specs for Vista then Win 7 would run with an acceptable level of performance. If you then add to that the transformation of the private retail market in terms of the rise of mobile devices meaning that you have phones, tablets and PCs all competing for the punter's hard earned one has then a situation which IMO cannot be fully explained in terms of disatisfaction with this or that iteration of Windows. I would agree that Win 8 was very clearly not any kind of hit with private retail customers but that is not remotely an adequate explanation for where the pc market has been going in recent years. Indeed if we look at the tablet market we can see that it also began to stall about three or more years ago and the mobile phone market began to show the same signs a year or so ago. The Windows OS can scarcely have anything to do with those phenomena! I think that the processes at work hear are market saturation, maturation and three different device classes trying to attract the punter's spons in a context where people do far more on their phones than they ever did before thus making the PC a lower priority than it once was. If we add to that the fact that modern tablets and smart phones continue to have perfectly adequate performance for several years it becomes clear that the whole personal tech retail market is becoming a very difficult place in which to do business.
"Up to and including Windows Vista each successive iteration of Redmond's OS virtually mandated a new pc (or a significant hardware upgrade) in order for it to run with anything like decent performance."
Yes but, of course, you didn't buy the new PC unless you wanted the new OS. The change is not wanting the new OS.
I fear I may not have made my point with Win 7 clearly enough. If you look at the timing of the PC market beginning to flatten out and then start on a downward curve something rather ironic regarding which Windows iteration actually contributed to the current state becomes clear. One of the two most popular and well regarded versions of Windows (XP being the other one of course) may very well have been one of the triggers for the processes that we have seen at work in that market.*
*I would wish to point out that in saying this I am not remotely being snide about Win 7 - I installed it on 4 different rigs and was always very pleased. An excellent OS. However, I do feel it is legitimate to point out that if one is going to assign some of the "blame" for the current weak state of the PC market to a particular version of Windows then one has to look at the timing of the beginnings of that weakness - they predate in fact both Win 8 and Win 10. This is of course entirely seperate from what you, I, or anyone else here on the threads at El Reg may think about 8 or 10 as operating systems.
Win10 runs on a phone, a small tablet etc. even a Pi, sort of.
No need for a new PC, therefore smaller sales.
MS need to sell it for 19.99 Home, 29.99 Pro and make sales happen to existing users, not too many of which care a great deal about the slurp that occupies so much time here but might want the latest OS to 'make it all work better'.
The masses are really not able to just run Linux (Mint or otherwise) totally themselves; most don't have friends who will set them up and many would not want to be reliant on someone else. Most don't know of the options of course.
It would be interesting to see a truly large effort to tell people that there is a solid, reliable, alternative to Windows that doesn't cost the earth like an Apple device and promise to support it and help with issues and get traction with Program developers etc.
Say, sell Mint with support for a year for 19.99, on the assumption that the system will be solid and reliable and thus not too may will need support anyway.
This sounds like a good business opportunity, the 20 quid is free money since the product supplied is free.
If it gives no trouble at all, it is basically a license to print money; hard to believe it is not happening at scale anywhere.
Last month I bought two final ThinkPads, being careful to stipulate the Windows 7 downgrade. I just got in under the wire, since Windows 7 is now no longer an option.
I had to clear out KB3035583 and all the GWX paraphernalia. I set Windows Update to "never check".
The new ThinkPads will be on an air-gapped LAN. An independent Linux Mint ThinkPad is the sole Internet-facing machine.
Been using W10 for over a year. Disabled all the phone home stuff using one of several specially designed tools that do it for you at the click of a button.
updates are hardly noticeable anymore. All the programs I want to run work fine. My PC doesn't crash, it runs great.
it is fantastic that all you linux people are happy with your linux machines, running your limited catalog of software, and that you have a W7 VM to run any incompatible programs. Really I hope you do get more support and it is great that Valve is supporting steam on it with more games added every week.
The fact is, Windows is far easier to use for non technical people. The internet is full of Windows programs to download to do what you want, it is not full of linux programs. Few people want to run commands to install software, they just want to double click an icon and it gets installed and creates a nice shortcut on their desktop.
Hey look I'm a bit of a Microsoft fan in general but what you've said is patently untrue - there are TONS of linux software out there, most sites I go to for windows programs (sourceforge etc) have linux version too and Linux is becoming more and more simply to use - MINT is extremely good and arguably easier to even install than Windows.
Compatibility is still the problem, but that'll sort itself out longer term. Microsoft have started down a very dodgy path with Windows 10 and it'll likely be a turning point in their OS fortune if the next iteration doesn't sort a lot of those problems out - privacy being one of the key concerns people have.
What a load of blinked crap from someone too afraid to leave Microsoft's apron strings.
Yes there are thousands of Windows programs to download, most with dodgy downloaders which will also install a load of malware too unless you are extra vigilant. On the other hand Linux has thousands of programs available in its repositories, which are only a click a way in your software installer, and never, ever, download crap you don't want.
So true, ironically - useful CCleaner can easily catch you out on a new install, the CCleaner installer now has bloatware Google Chrome at the very bottom left of the installer (easy to miss).
Rather than clean (a PC with limited disk space), CCleaner now adds even more stuff to your PC, who'd have thought?
"The fact is, Windows is far easier to use for non technical people."
What you're referring to is the fact that windows comes ready installed on the pc when you buy it from the main outlets, the same thing is not yet true of Linux. Thus, most people have no experience of it. Android seems to be doing all right in the mobile phone market, though.
Used to be true, maybe.
But a properly set up Linux Mint, with Mate, Redmond theme and Wine for a couple of programs etc is MUCH easier for XP users and even Vista / Win 7 users than Win 8.x and Win 10.
Not sure if Sage and payroll runs under Wine, but very few home users and small business users not doing accounts / payroll need Windows any more.
Games? The appropriate graphics cards can cost more than an Xbox One or PS4. PS4 seems to be winning there.
---"Games? The appropriate graphics cards can cost more than an Xbox One or PS4. PS4 seems to be winning there"----
So, you'e suggesting that if a Windows user switches to Linux, not only will they need to run any software not supported in Linux through a third party software layer and hope it runs with no issues, and they'll need to buy a console to be able to play games? Are you sure you're trying to convince me that Linux is a viable alternative to a Windows PC?
And not forgetting that neither consoles you've suggested are acceptable alternatives to a PC running Windows for gaming.
"So, you'e suggesting that if a Windows user switches to Linux, not only will they need to run any software not supported in Linux through a third party software layer and hope it runs with no issues, and they'll need to buy a console to be able to play games?"
I think he was suggesting that if you want to play games doing so on a console would cost you less than upgrading a Windows PC to do it there.
"I think he was suggesting that if you want to play games doing so on a console would cost you less than upgrading a Windows PC to do it there."
But then you'd be playing shitty console games on a shitty console. This does not fit the original use case.
For me, games are the only reason I still run Windows at all. Too many of them just don't work quite right under WINE, or don't work at all.
"...they just want to double click an icon and it gets installed and creates a nice shortcut on their desktop."
You do realize that Windows 2000 does this just fine, right?
"Disabled <b>all</b> the phone home stuff using one of several specially designed tools that do it for you at the click of a button."
No you didn't. Also, by accepting the EULA, you have agreed to this behavior. So when updates reset those that you were able to change, you haven't a legal leg to stand on in the US.
"The internet is full of Windows programs to download to do what you want, <b>it is not full of linux programs.</b>"
You have no idea what you are talking about.
"The internet is full of Windows programs to download to do what you want, it is not full of linux programs. Few people want to run commands to install software, they just want to double click an icon and it gets installed and creates a nice shortcut on their desktop."
The trouble with posting this sort of bollox is that it immediately identifies your lack of experience. What you probably mean by "the internet" is the web. Mostly Linux users don't even have to go to the web to download stuff from the net. What they need is right there in their distro's repository and they already have what they need to access that. And that's access with a click or two because their distro already provides a GUI interface to the repository.
What's more, if I were using Windows I'd always be a bit dubious about anything I'd download from the web.
To be fair the OP has a point (although Fthr Ted Crilly nails why IMO). Results here will be a bit skewed the average reader of the register doesn't mind poking around their PC, the average home user or even office worker well that may be different.
Windows is entrenched and will be hard to shift, and the average user starting a Linux PC has to relearn some things just to use it, some people will just not do that, or want to, it's a strange new world to learn. You can get frustrated at this attitude, but it's not going to change anytime soon in large numbers.
However with also the average user only doing a few things on a PC, like a bit of word processing, email, web browsing and such (which is probably one of the reasons tablets are taking over), something like the remix OS* (but non spying), a linux build with a dead simple interface (like android I feel people learnt that because they had to to use smartphone, and lets be honest there's lots there people do not know about) a easy to reach app store, and some basic halfway decent word processor etc, could be a killer install for the average home user buying a PC.
"The fact is, Windows is far easier to use for non technical people."
So... Far easier to use for non technical people that are are tech savvy enough to hunt down and install all the programs that return functionality that MS obscures and even over rides.
Those "non technical people"?
" Disabled all the phone home stuff using one of several specially designed tools that do it for you at the click of a button."
So even you admit it's not fit for purpose without third party software altering it's behaviour.
Sounds perfect for "non technical people".
Windows 10 AU 1607 is pretty useless without an SSD. But its definitely stabilising and the updates seems to be less frequent, they do appear quicker to install (the last cumulative one anyway). Start menu in Win10 is malware as far as I'm concerned though. Windows 7SP1 Updates (once fixed with specific 'special sauce' KBs) are almost back to an 8 minute max search 'searching for updates' (on SSD).*
I'm unusual in that I like Linux, macOS, and Windows 10/7, all have positives. I run all four. Why? because Office 2016 can be tiresome/bloaty, LibreOffice is good for most stuff. Windows 10 feels like swimming in soup sometimes. macOS is expensive to rollout across the board, generally falls apart if you do anything outside the norm. Crucially, Linux is licence free, installs really quick, or can be used from USB.
I do get sick of the stereotyping of Linux users though, because even Microsoft endorses Linux now. Linux Mint is a superb, fast OS, without issue, as far as I'm concerned. Really need to stop Linux bashing and see it for what it is, decent.
Windows 10, isn't awful either, once you're upto date, the latest version is stable, switch off everything (privacy wise) and Windows 10 does start to disappear into the background like Windows 7 does.
(*All of us still using Windows are apologists for Microsoft in some shape or form, from years of systematic 'update' abuse. Windows Update is still the clunky elephant in the room. The Metro style start menu still needs work, after 5 years, how time flies).
It's a mess... I got stuck with it on a new laptop, and it's horrible... It's like a part finished project written by multiple teams who neither communicated, nor saw a design standard memo.
And I'm not just talking about applications here, I mean the core bits that come with Windows don't even match. Some parts look like Windows 7/8, others look like flat slabs of pixels.
It's truly horrid.
And there's the ever pervasive "Metro" interface still lurking because it wants to be a tablet.
I've done my best to make is "normal". Murdered Cortana, installed classic shell...
I honestly can't think of anything 10 provides that I want... I'll probably "downgrade" to 8.1 soon (again with classic shell). The reason I stop short of going back to 7 is there is *one* thing I really like on 8.1... Win-Prt Scrn!
I'm expecting this to come in the form of 'inactive use' after so many months (like Mobile Sim Cards) Windows 10 deactivates if a user doesn't log-on, and will need to reactivate for a norminal fee. That's my take. Either that or Windows 10 Creators Edition is going to be a 'bloater' and require a memory/ssd/graphics update, additional hardware maybe as a minimum. It will happen at some point no doubt.
Maybe it will just be in the form of more and more restrictions on Home/Pro users to push them towards a subscription based enterprise/biz licence, where you need configuration/oversight.
"This is more than a one-time upgrade: once a Windows device is upgraded to Windows 10, we will continue to keep it current for the supported lifetime of the device – at no additional charge"
- Terry Myerson.
This is a quite obvious attempt by MS at being cunning. They'll probably trick some ignorants/halfwits to believe they're "fleecing Microsoft" by posing as disabled persons.
IMHO it's a pathetic last ditch measure by Microsoft in order to obtain a few more market share percent points.
A pox on them!
I dusted off my Halloween control applications for their annual outing last week. Something in W7 has changed in the last year that makes it very unpredictable to get the Bluetooth speaker to work every time - even if the Bluetooth status window says "connected". Have to reboot and then go through a druidic ritual to add the speaker again before it will work properly.
"druidic ritual to add the speaker again before it will work properly"
Did it involve a CHICKEN?
Sorta like what we used to do, back in the day, at a company that made smart antennas for wifi access points. we called it "the flash dance" - hold the button, do the dance while updated firmware transfers onto the device...
"Something in W7 has changed in the last year that makes it very unpredictable to get the Bluetooth speaker to work every time"
Might be this?
My various tech-hobby-oriented subdomains are not the be-all for survey purposes, and AW Stats apparently sees Windows 10 as "Windows (unknown)," but I only see that on one sub. Windows 7 is the clear leader, though there are a disheartening number of hits from XP. Even some Windows 2000! Maybe they're bots, though. I suspect most Win 10 installations were due to users setting Windows Update to the anything-goes mode, not through deliberate installation. If you did a survey in the UK, you'd find most people drive on the left, but it's different in France. That's no way to determine which is better. Microsoft may tout their "success" in
installing forcing Win 10, but it's no reflection on the value of the OS.
Subject: How to restart Win 10 adoption
We've been brainstorming how to push revenue and Win 10 adoption at the same time. Very useful stuff, think-outside-the-box originality by some of the best thought leaders and influencers on my team.
You know how we have many customers' CC info on file in the app store? And how we've proven that Win 10 can be auto-installed without the customer having to ask for it?
How about we set up Win 10 to auto-install and we charge customers for it? I am sure they'll love it, esp if we throw in a few months of Office 365 for free (not too many so that they aren't too likely to hit an outage during their trial). After all, we all know the Win 10 auto-install was very popular, outside of some few, but very vocal, naysayers. I mean, all the people in our focus groups and all our employees thought it was a brilliant idea - they all replied checked 'Yes' for that question on their Annual Performance Review form.
This is not the time to have second thoughts, we need to leverage our strengths and align all our users with our strategic vision.
Golf on Thursday, 6 pm?
Ted Flunkee, Mr-Telemetry, can join us and discuss our rising satisfaction metrics - we've finally beaten down those people who want menus rather than ribbons. Sadly, Mary from Engineering can't make it - I mean who cares if the innards in 10 are better? No one. Not users - they only care about the shiny and we are the SHINIEST because we have the best ideas.
p.s. I'd like to bring along John, he's got some brilliant ideas about re-tooling the Control Panel once again - the configuration settings are starting to look stale, we haven't updated their navigation in months now.
I honestly believe that Microsoft can achieve some great things, some of their technology is impressive. I mean, it's not easy mixing an (somewhat) easy to use GUI and still allow for pro's to perform more complex (commandline) tasks. I also think some of their software is a bit under appreciated. When taking a look at Office for example there are plenty of people who fail to realize that the VBA backend is basically a complete programming environment on its own. The interactivity doesn't stop between the Office components.
But yeah... I think the main problem here is that Microsoft still fails to realize (or they're in denial, I have no idea) that they no longer dominate the market. Instead of forcing their ideals onto people (Windows 10) they should try to appeal to them instead.
I mean, am I the only one who spots the massive irony in this thread? People don't use Windows 10 because of the spying and intrusion of Microsoft but will easily mention the ease of use Google provides. Don't get me wrong: the arguments are most definitely legit, Google knows really well how to provide appealing products. But don't think for one second that all of that is free!
As to Win 10... "Teaserware" is what I call it. I have no love lost for software which shows you dozens of options which you cannot use because "you should get the premium version!". Instead of focusing on the tease why not focus on giving me better and more direct access to the features which you do provide instead of trying to send me on a goose chase?
>MIcrosoft were at the forefront of progress, making computing better and more accessible....
Have they ever been, serious question ... when was the last time ? Must have been decades ago, I cannot remember ... and I am not really what one would call "young" anymore ;-)
I always thought they were playing catch-up, all the time, throwing FUD at the competition, engineering algorithms that would detect a competitor's software and alter the behavior of the computer accordingly ... only to buy time to implement their own crippled variants of the competitor's ideas ...
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