back to article Latest Intel, AMD chips will only run Windows 10 ... and Linux, BSD, OS X

I read an article this week headlined: "The latest Kaby Lake, Zen chips will support only Windows 10." It claimed Intel and AMD's new processors are "officially supported only by Microsoft’s Windows 10." This can't be true? What about Linux? Journalists, right? The short answer is Intel's Kaby Lake aka its seventh-generation …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Basically, for now, don't buy an Intel seventh-generation Core nor an AMD Zen CPU if you want to keep running Windows 7 or 8.1."

    Bother! I was thinking about going for an tech refresh with Intel seventh generation hardware to use up my spare W7 licences. No way will I consider being forced into W10.

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Don't forget the DRM

      Let it not be forgotten that Intel has lovingly baked DRM into said 7th gen chips - for the ease of use and reliability that all users crave, right ?

      Not compatible with Win 7 ? Not a problem here - I'm in the process of transitioning to Linux anyway.

      And without DRM if at all possible.

      1. Mage Silver badge

        Re: Not compatible?

        Weasel speak:

        "Windows 10 is your only supported option" != "Only Windows 10 version of windows works / compatible"

        i.e. the only option MS will "support" is Windows 10.

        Well, in nearly 20 years of doing Windows stuff, the only MS support was Technet or more expensive MSDN. Pretty poor after Server 2003, because, well, Ribbon, Aero, etc are stupid.

        Migrated to Linux.

        Any new hardware ongoing will be Linux, Android or BSD or something Chinese, certainly not Win 10.

    2. Jonathan 27 Bronze badge

      Then just buy Sky Lake instead, there is nearly no performance difference.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Then just buy Sky Lake instead, there is nearly no performance difference.

        How long do you think Intel we keep those processors available for?

        1. John 104

          @Charlie Clark

          How long do you think Intel we keep those processors available for

          You'll be able to buy systems on these chips for years. Look around online and see how many discounted Broadwell systems are out there. Not really an issue if you are resourceful.

        2. Updraft102 Silver badge

          How long do you think Intel we keep those processors available for?

          Considering that Sandy Bridge, Nehalem, Core 2, etc., are still readily available in the secondary market, I would say it's not a problem.

      2. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        @ Jonathan 27

        What makes you think that I haven't already bought a SkyLake CPU ?

        Because I have. With 32GB RAM and 5TB of hard disk space.

        I've had it for a year now. I'm very happy with it, and looking forward to seeing what Mint will make of it.

        1. Scoular

          Re: @ Jonathan 27

          Mint will work just fine, I have had it running on similar hardware for a year.

          No Win 10 crap thanks, bye bye MS.

    3. NoneSuch Silver badge
      Coffee/keyboard

      Another monopoly move from MS that ends up shooting them solidly in the foot.

      I have zero interest in Win10 at this time and forcing me to go with 10 on a purchase of Zen will simply result in my not buying Zen. My Win 7 games PC is working just fine thank you very much. As soon as my Steam library is supported on Linux, then I'll drop Win 7 forever.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      $10 says Intel backs up the bus and supports Windows 7 after MSFT can't get any companies to pay a bunch of cash for $0 in value add to move to Windows 10.

      Also, who cares? Outside of Redmond's bubble, the entire world is moving towards lightweight end user devices (PC or otherwise... the whole cloud story). For instance, Google is releasing just killer business class PCs right now running Chrome OS on Intel m core processor. m core basically trades unnecessary compute power that 99% of users will never touch (the i core series) for better battery life. That is a good trade off for 99% of people. Compute intensive apps should run on a server. I have the new HP Chromebook 13 and so Intel and Microsoft can go right ahead and do whatever they want with the i series.... Funny that MSFT thinks this is really going to scare people into buying Windows 10. "You are not going to be able to get the i core!" So what, giant PC chips were cool in the 90s, not so important since the internet came around. You can easily run any PC app under the sun on an m series chip... you can likely get the job done on an ARM chip.

      1. Mad Dave

        -killer business class PCs

        -running Chrome OS

        Yeah, you can only pick one of those.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          I have a Toshiba Chromebook with a HD display that chroots to Ubuntu in about 3 seconds thanks to Crouton.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "killer business class PCs

          -running Chrome OS

          Yeah, you can only pick one of those"

          Nonsense. Chrome, by design, will always be more secure than Windows. Chrome requires far less management (if you are an IT admin, you can manage a fleet of thousands and all the data access on Chome from a single counsel... as they are running all critical services on the server, where critical services belong). It isn't as good as Windows for business, it is much better.... Also, throw in that it is a free OS with Google support. If you are a large business, that is millions a year in savings. Thick client is from the 90s, as is paying for OSs.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Farming out compute intensive processes?

        Are we back in the days of Mainframes now, or just terminal servers and thin clients? How long until security and bandwidth concerns push us back onto only using machines we actually control?!

        I have a PC. I can do freakin' anything with it, and it'll continue working long after your cloud services have shut down.

        1. Danny 14 Silver badge

          Re: Farming out compute intensive processes?

          So usb installation is tricky? What about pxe installation? DVD? Sounds like a crock of shite to me.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Farming out compute intensive processes?

          "Are we back in the days of Mainframes now, or just terminal servers and thin clients? How long until security and bandwidth concerns push us back onto only using machines we actually control?!"

          What? Security concerns? Mainframes are far more secure than PCs or a PC architecture. It isn't even close. I believe the IBM mainframe has not yet been hacked (50 something years since introduction). Just think about it. What is more secure? One incredibly well guarded server, purpose built for maximum security... or a thousands PCs being left on the table at Starbucks or floating around the office? Say nothing about the superiority of IBM z/OS (or Unix derivative) OSs to Windows.... The whole cloud security concern doesn't make much sense either. Who is likely going to do a better job? Google or AWS with an army of top notch security engineers, huge amounts of cash to spend on security, and every incentive to ensure their customers data is never hacked, or whoever the local business happens to hire for their security position?

          What can you really do with a PC that is not connected to the internet? You can create a spreadsheet offline (which you can do with Chromebook as well)... Not much otherwise. Play a game I suppose. It is really a solution in search of a problem for most people though. Most people always have internet access... if they don't have WiFi, they are looking at their phones... not their offline PC.

    5. energystar
      Alien

      Multi-Pass?

      will only run Windows 10 ... and [allowed a multi-pass guest card to] BSD, OS X, LeeLoo

  2. fandom

    On the other hand, even Linux ended up dropping support for 386 CPUs.

    1. Sir Runcible Spoon Silver badge

      As much as this piece of news is irritating and indicative of M$ trying to force more people into Win10, nowhere does it state any kind of parallel to what you just noted.

      No-one is dropping support for older CPU's here.

    2. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

      @fandom

      ...will drop support... There. FIFY.

      It's not happened yet, and when it does, mainstream Linux distro's will remain supported in i386 for several years to come, because they will keep the older kernels in their LTS repositories for quite a while (Ubuntu will drop support first in 18.10)

      I estimate that I'll have retired all my i386 boxes way before Ubuntu 18.04 drops out of support in 2022 or 2023.

      1. Tom 7 Silver badge

        Re: @fandom

        And I'd imagine by then A RaspberryPi5 with 8Gig of Ram and 8*4Ghz cores using so little power that you will save money in the first year by retiring your i386 boxen!

      2. GrapeBunch Silver badge

        Re: @fandom

        Forgive the naive question, but my recollection from the days of 386s and 486s is that the main hurdle to running Linux back then in a 386 or 486 system was RAM. The typical 386 system did not have enough RAM to properly run Linux. So has Linux become slimmer in the ensuing quarter-century?

        Foundations used to solicit the donation of old computers. I was considering such a donation and asked the obvious question. It turned out that the desktop box I was considering to donate was not powerful enough to donate to them. Then I did a double take, because the most powerful computer in the house also was not powerful enough to donate! This is part of the "naive" in my question.

        1. fandom

          Re: @fandom

          "The typical 386 system did not have enough RAM to properly run Linux."

          Not at all since Linux was first developed to run in 386 chips.

          Actually the announcement for the first public release said:

          "It is NOT portable (uses 386 task switching etc), and it probably never will support anything other than AT-harddisks, as that’s all I have "

          Which is kind of funny in hindsight.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @fandom

        "...will drop support... There. FIFY."

        No, i386 got dropped almost 4 years ago. The interrupts are handled differently from later processors and they decided it was a bit too faffy to support.

        Mostly doesn't affect anything because most distros have only supported 586 and above for a long time.

        32 bit x86 - for, internally, Linux calls the architecture x86 - well, a few distros have dropped support for it, but it hasn't gone away yet.

        1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

          Re: @fandom

          OK. I was confusing 386 and 32-bit x86. Sorry.

    3. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge

      This isn't the same, and Linux/BSD dropped support for 386s because :

      1) It's too slow

      2) No one is using 386s any more.

      486 support will take longer to disappear, because there's still a fair bit of embedded kit using 486 processors. Anything above a Core processor is usable for modern productivity tasks (i.e word processing), although it'll probably chug for the most advert heavy webpages.

      However, 486 support only applies to the base OS. A number of packages have assumed at least SSE (P3), and browsers have started enforcing SSE2 (P4). For text only, very slow systems are still manageable. Many X utilities seem to assume Qt these days and I suspect a pentium 4 is the minimum usable platform, I tried with slower and it was a bad idea.

      Windows is much more strict with later releases, and running some apps, particularly games, is sometimes tricky. No Man's Sky shipped requiring SSE4.1, which is included in Intel chips from 2007 or later, but not in Phenom 2 chips, the last of which was released in 2011.. That got fixed rapidly.

      1. John Crisp

        "This isn't the same, and Linux/BSD dropped support for 386s because :"

        AFAIAA it is because getting the hardware to build/test is becoming harder/more expensive now and not considered worth the effort

        I could be wrong..... couldn't find the ML post I read on it

      2. Mindbreaker

        386, 486, good grief! Why on Earth are you keeping that junk? Let me guess...you keep using the same toothbrush until the last scraggly tuft falls out.

        1. theOtherJT

          386, 486, good grief! Why on Earth are you keeping that junk? Let me guess...you keep using the same toothbrush until the last scraggly tuft falls out.

          Because you find various perfectly servicable industrial machines that have an integrated controller with early 3/486 cpus in them. Nothing wrong with the machine, but you can't update the software any more, and you can't change the controlling machine because it uses some weird proprietary hardware so what to do? If you can put Linux on it chances are you can hack together some working control code, which is a damn sight easier than trying to work out how to get a modern PC to talk to whatever the hell it is.

    4. big_D Silver badge

      They are dropping x86 support, as oposed to 386 support. That means 32-bit versions will no longer be actively developed / supported going forward.

      That means no Linux for 32-bit Atom chips or older hardware. As most Intel processors today are 64-bit, there is less and less need to support 32-bit, although that means that 32-bit processors will be restricted to older distributions with LTS support.

      As for Windows, it doesn't say that it can't / won't run on older versions, just that if there are problems, you are on your own and will have to solve any compatibility or stability problems yourself.

      The biggest problem here is that the "support" for new processors means adding new features and drivers to Windows 7 and 8.x. Windows 7 is in extended support, which means that it only gets security updates. As new features are not security, there are no resources available to implement them.

      If you are a large corporate, buying thousands of PCs with Kaby Lake, then you can probably pay for MS to write the relevant drivers, as a private individual that isn't realistic.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Another option (if you really want to stick with Windows)...

    Run Windows <whatever> in a VM. But the license doesn't allow that...

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: Another option (if you really want to stick with Windows)...

      >But the license doesn't allow that...

      Does it not? Genuine question.

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: Another option (if you really want to stick with Windows)...

        Hmm... it appears you can use Win7 in a VM without contravening the licence. What isn't allowed is using the same Win 7 licence for both the host OS and guest VM.

        - http://superuser.com/questions/25678/how-does-windows-7-licensing-work-for-running-the-os-as-virtual-machines

        - http://blog.superuser.com/2011/04/06/microsoft-licencing-transferring-windows-to-another-computer/

    2. d3vy Silver badge

      Re: Another option (if you really want to stick with Windows)...

      @Annon.

      You're talking out of your hole.

      There is nothing that stops you using win7 in a VM, You cant use the same Licence for the host and the VM.. but if your setting up the VM to get round not being able to run win7 as the host OS this hardly seems to be an issue.

      The solution to the problem would seem to be to use win10/linux as the host and windows7 in the VM... whether the performance impact of running in a VM makes it worth it is another matter... probably better just to buy an older generation of CPU.

      1. Boothy

        Re: Another option (if you really want to stick with Windows)...

        Would that still work?

        Don't VMs access the CPU (essentially) directly anyway?

        i.e. If your host is a 3rd gen i7, then your VM also see's a 3rd gen i7. All the 'user' can usually do is manage things like how many cores are available to the VM, not what type of CPU the VM gets to see.

        Therefore wouldn't trying to run Win 7 in a VM, on a host that was running on a new CPU, still have the same compatibility issue?

        Genuine question. As my experience with various VM environments (desktop, not server), don't allow you to change the 'type' of CPU available to the VM, they always see whatever the host has installed.

        1. Tim Bates

          Re: Another option (if you really want to stick with Windows)...

          I realise this is old, but Google got me here....

          The answer is yes and no... With modern virtualisation, the guest does basically directly talk to the CPU. But decent virtualisation software does let you limit what CPU is announced to the guest, which usually helps with stuff getting upset with newer cpus.

          KVM/Qemu lets you set the CPU type, and I've had instances where I've had to do that. Not sure if it blocks invalid calls and such, but makes he OS think it's on a 486 or whatever you choose.

          That said... The main trouble seems to be driver support. Virtual video card, USB, netowkr, etc solves that problem.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "They could port over drivers from Linux, of instance."

    Loading GPLv2 licensed drivers from Linux in the Windows kernel, I just can't wait for that to happen.

    1. Tom 38 Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: "They could port over drivers from Linux, of instance."

      Warning: Kernel will become less tainted! Do you wish to continue? [Y/n]

  5. Fenton

    Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

    There is a lot of legacy stuff in x86/x87 to support 16bit/32bit.

    I could see this as a good opportunity to strip all of this crap out to have a pure

    64bit CPU.

    1. Sandtitz Silver badge

      Re: Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

      "I could see this as a good opportunity to strip all of this crap out to have a pure 64bit CPU."

      Then you could replace it with a totally different architecture anyway, since you'd need 64bit software as well. Most software is still 32-bit in whole or partially. The 32-bit subsystem in Windows can be disabled but most software will just stop working / won't install.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

        "I could see this as a good opportunity to strip all of this crap out to have a pure 64bit CPU."

        what, like the Alpha ?

        1. Mage Silver badge

          Re: Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

          Alpha 64 had first 64 bit Windows, NT 4.0!

          Some stuff is actually LESS efficient on 64 only code.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

            Wasn't the Alpha Windows 32-bit, despite CPU capabilities? NT3.1 era, before 4.0 ....

            1. DougS Silver badge

              Re: Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

              I'm willing to bet Apple is getting pretty close to dropping the 32 bit ISA from the iPhone/iPad SoC. It is only needed now to run apps that haven't been recompiled since before iOS 7 was released and universal apps could be built. Seen in the light of Apple's recent announcement that they will soon start housecleaning apps that haven't been updated in a long time (they haven't specified how long) makes me think that in either fall 2018 with the A11 & iOS 11 or definitely by fall 2019 with the A12 and iOS 12 Apple will:

              1) build that version of iOS 64 bit only

              2) drop support for the remaining 32 bit hardware (iPhone 5 & 5c, and iPad 4 is the only 32 bit hardware iOS 10 supports)

              3) drop non-universal apps from the app store (i.e. those that haven't been built with the new tools that came out with iOS 7 back in June 2012)

              The apps still on your phone that are 32 bit only could still be run, as it is easy to emulate the 32 bit ISA using a 64 bit CPU (Apple did much the same thing for its various transitions in the Mac world) but they'd be gone from the App Store, so if you deleted them off your phone you wouldn't be able to re-download them.

              Doing this would have a lot of benefits for Apple in reducing the effort involved in designing and (especially) testing new versions of iOS and new SoCs, since all the 32 bit stuff simply goes away.

    2. Dummy00001

      Re: Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

      > I could see this as a good opportunity to strip all of this crap out to have a pure 64bit CPU.

      That won't work, since MS has royally messed up 32-bit/64-bit portability/compatibility, on these days on Windows, a rare application is actually 64-bit.

      It was funny to see the 32-bit vs 64-bit compatibility development on Windows and Linux having orthogonally different problems: former was botched by the supposed "backward compatibility", later was delayed by inability of most applications to cope with two/more sets of different system libraries/interfaces. Linux obviously eventually fixed the problems. But on Windows it is still the same: the popular recommendation is to develop exclusively 32-bit applications, and simply forget about the 64-bit.

    3. Paul

      Re: Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

      it's called Itanium?

  6. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    Unless you are Really Big Biz this...

    "officially supported only by Microsoft’s Windows 10.

    means SFA to man or beast.

    I've seet MS quoted as saying that other OS's will run but won't take advantage of new tricks in the X86 microcode.

    That seems to be a world of difference to 'won't run'.

    To me, won't run means something like trying to boot a Solaris (Sparc) Cd/DVS on an X86 CPU.

    Or trying to Run Windows 7 on a machine with 512Kb of Ram when the min is 1Gb (or more).

    Or trying to stop 'svchost.exe' from using all the RAM and CPU for no effing reason.

    1. Snowy Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Unless you are Really Big Biz this...

      Indeed 100% correct have an upvote (was about to post the same thing)

    2. Paul Webb

      Re: Unless you are Really Big Biz this...

      Upvote for effin 'svchost.exe'.

      1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

        Re: Unless you are Really Big Biz this...

        svchost.exe exists for both very tenous lazy developer reasons and to simultansously ensure that it's nearly impossible to adequately secure a system by controlling what has access to what network resource.

    3. PT

      Re: Unless you are Really Big Biz this...

      "Or trying to stop 'svchost.exe' from using all the RAM and CPU for no effing reason."

      OMG - I thought I was the only one who had that problem! Yep, every week or so it takes 50% of my cycles for 16 or 20 hours at a time, even with the network unplugged. What the hell is it doing?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Unless you are Really Big Biz this...

        "50% of my cycles for 16 or 20 hours at a time, even with the network unplugged. What the hell is it doing?"

        What's that got to do with you (and me, given that I've seen it as well)? It's not as though anything with Windows on it in recent years is under the control of the PC owner/user these days.

        How does one even find out what a svchost process is doing (and who it's doing it for) anyway?

      2. Avatar of They
        FAIL

        Re: Unless you are Really Big Biz this...

        Me to, brand new dell laptop. SVChost.exe. 1.5GB of 4GB RAM and 70% CPU, doing absolutely nothing.

        Gotta love M$.

        1. Dave Stevenson

          Re: Unless you are Really Big Biz this...

          Generally Windows Update service for me.

          Go to task manager. Right click on the svchost.exe instance consuming all the resources. "Go to Service(s)". If it isn't wuaserv, then I'll be surprised.

          You can right click the service and stop it, but it will restart automatically a little later.

          As to why it takes so much resource, damned if I know! Perhaps it's another attempt to push us all onto Win10.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bloat

    This isn't necessarily a bad thing (waits for the clamor for my head to die down...)

    Endlessly adding backwards compatibility to the latest stuff just adds bloat.

    1. Known Hero

      Re: Bloat

      Brave of you to mention that, but not enough to not go anon ;)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bloat

        "Caution is preferable to rash bravery. "

    2. fung0

      Re: Bloat

      AC: "Endlessly adding backwards compatibility to the latest stuff just adds bloat."

      What you forget is that the only real value of Windows over any other OS is exactly that bloat - the ability to run 'legacy' applications from 10 and 20 years ago.

      Windows is simply not special in any other way. It's not as flexible, or secure, or manageable as Linux. If I didn't care about running my old Win32 software, I'd be 100% on Linux by tomorrow morning. And so would everyone else.

      1. Mage Silver badge
        Windows

        Re: Bloat

        The ONLY value to windows for maybe the last 10 years is to be able to run ancient stuff without a copy of an ancient OS in a VM.

        Windows is pointless without good backward compatibility.

  8. Planty Bronze badge

    Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

    It's solely responsible for the decline of PC sales, that started with the launch of Windows 8, and continued with the 8.1 and 8.2 (more commonly known as Win10) disasters.

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

      > [Microsoft] is solely responsible for the decline of PC sales,

      MS has caused me as much exasperation and frustration as the next user, but I have to suggest that at least part of the decline in PC sales is that older PCs are still fit for purpose.

      My five year old Core 2 Duo w/ 4GB RAM is still happy to do 3D CAD work, as well as office and video tasks... for sure, a newer and faster machine will complete ray trace renders quicker, but that itself isn't reason for me to go out and drop £1,000 on a new PC.

      MS have clearly made some infuriating and bewildering decisions over the decades, so you don't need to exaggerate!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

        Agree.

        I have an early Core i7 running Win7. It does all I want, runs games ok (mostly WoW), so why buy a new PC? I might upgrade or replace a few bits, but I have no plans to play a brand new PC.

        At some point it will mostly likely expire, but I'm hoping it will last at least as long as Win7 is still being supported (EoL 2020?).

      2. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

        Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

        The need for end users to have the power of these new chips will application driven not driven by the users. Most users can probably use hardware and software from 5 or so years ago.

      3. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

        (mostly) everything posted under this title is right in line with what I've been saying for a LONG time, that

        a) 'new,shiny' isn't fast/better enough to justify getting a new computer

        b) Windows 8 and later suck too much, driving people to "keep what they have"

        and also

        c) factor in the suck economy and people watching how they spend

        funny how the article pointed THIS out:

        "Windows 10 must succeed at all costs. It's Windows 10 or bust."

        And Micro-shaft FORGOT that NEW PC SALES are a BIG factor for THEIR REVENUE!

        /me predicts "Bust"

      4. MJI Silver badge

        Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

        I can beat that my old XP PC is still grunty enough to run lots of stuff and still works for video editing (including HD).

        Was XP as built just before 7 came out.

    2. d3vy Silver badge

      Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

      Microsoft is soley responsible for the decline in PC sales?

      Ha, So.. not market saturation then? Not Apple? Not the fact that everyone now owns a phone/Tablet capable of replacing their PC for most of their computing activities?

      Get a grip.

      1. fung0

        Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

        d3vy: "Get a grip."

        It's clearly an exaggeration to say it's all Microsoft's fault. What is certainly true, though, is that Microsoft has failed to give anyone a reason to want a newer PC. Windows 10 doesn't let you do anything that you can't on Windows XP.

        But what's truly ironic is that in attempting to force everyone onto a single version of Windows, Microsoft has smeared out the number of versions even further. Windows 10 has failed to accelerate the decline of Windows XP. Windows 7 - by most benchmarks - remains the most popular OS in the world. Windows 8.x is declining, but not so much that it can be ignored any time soon. Even Windows Phone was not fully replaced by Windows 10, further splitting a mobile market that was already minuscule to begin with.

        Altering the hardware will worsen this situation still further. We'll see a continued demand for older CPU generations, as well as a growth of fixes and hacks to support older versions of Windows on newer chips. Because it's the continuity that people are addicted to, not Windows as such. And newer versions of Windows fail to offer any advantage that would compensate for a reduction in that continuity.

      2. Alumoi

        Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

        Not the fact that everyone now owns a phone/Tablet capable of replacing their PC for most of their computing activities?

        Hello failbook/twatter/$social_media user!

        A phone/tablet is just an expensive toy suitable for light web browsing, casual brainwashing games, messaging and, of course, everyone's favorite, OMG! kittens! on youtube.

        They are consumer devices not computing devices.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

          "They are consumer devices not computing devices."

          Nevertheless what they do is what many users have bought a PC for in the past.

        2. Wayland Bronze badge

          Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

          "They are consumer devices not computing devices." - I hate Smartphones because they ought not to be better than the PC but they are. Yes a PC has a big screen and proper keyboard and mouse so ought to be better. However it's not. In Windows 7 Microsoft did have a go at using accelerated graphics hardware to improve the experience but this was a gimmick. Then Microsoft abandoned graphical effects with the Metro interface. Compare this to how a smartphone user can effortlessly scroll through photos smoothly and enlarge and rotate instantly.

          No, Microsoft let the PC down. Almost as if the desire was to kill it.

          Linux on the desktop is just a copy of Windows 95.

    3. Michael Sanders

      Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

      Everyone who disagrees with this is wrong. THE prime reason for the public to refresh their PC was for new game support. Microsoft sent everything to console. They even took halo away. Then they dropped two turds, 8.x and 10. "Duh..What happened? No body is buying PC's?" Everyone bought phones and consoles you idiot. Since nobody bothered to innovate for an 8 core processor, a modern phone does everything your PC can do, just as fast. Who wants a PC? I should have a half-nude Cortana AI at this point. But instead I've got a phone interface on my PC that is not as convenient as a touch screen phone in my lap with a bag of popcorn. So yes. Microsoft killed the PC.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

        "THE prime reason for the public to refresh their PC was for new game support."

        Citation needed.

        Presumably you're a gamer. I have news for you: many people have not the slightest interest in playing computer games. They do use computers for other stuff, all of which worked better on new hardware during the decades when performance was improving but not reached "good enough". Now they're not going to replace stuff which is good enough and for many phones, tablets and chromebooks are also good enough. And even during those years when PCs were selling well most users neither needed nor bought whatever was then the top end stuff that hardcore gamers bought.

      2. Colin Critch

        Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

        Correction . Microsoft killed windows not the PC.

  9. oiseau Silver badge
    Flame

    No?

    "But the license doesn't allow that..."

    At this point and after paying through my nose for crap MS OSs for years on, I really don't give a f*ck what the licence allow or not.

    I'm quite happy with my move to Linux and only use MS stuff in a VM for programmes that I don't have under the Linux platform (two or three, no more).

    MS can shove their license.

  10. AdamK

    Not just these

    The difficulty occurs with any xhci controller, not just these. It gets tricky if the install is done from a usb3.x port. As long as you have a USB2 port you are fine. I'm writing this on a lappy with sandy bridge and a renesas xhci usb3 controller on one port. I can't install win 7 through that either. Thin lappy with a single USB3 port and nowt else = bad idea. That's all they'll offer then. Corporate grade e.g Dell Latitude will be OK. Consumer? Just be grateful and shut it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not just these @AdamK

      "The difficulty occurs with any xhci controller, not just these. It gets tricky if the install is done from a usb3.x port."

      I concur.

      We're using a tried and tested Fedora installation and it can't be installed on any Skylake systems either from USB DVD or memory stick, since the installation can't find the source packages! The reason is exactly the same as with Windows 7 - no xHCI support in kernel.

      Like 'Steve Davies 3' wrote, there is a mountain of difference between not working and not supported - even with many businesses since not very many will ever invoke a support request from MS or computer vendor.

      1. Wayland Bronze badge

        Re: Not just these @AdamK

        "no xHCI support in kernel."

        Make the hard drive bootable using another system and put the install on a partition on that.

        Then put the drive back in the target and boot into the installer.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    at least remove the 16 bit a and real mode crap.

  12. Mikel

    "Runs Linux"

    Isn't this just assumed by now? Linux runs on everything. To the Linux fan, the hardware world is a vast utopia.

    Remember when hardware designers were desperate to prevent Linux from working with their gear? That was a long, long time ago.

  13. BobChip
    WTF?

    Slow, carefully planned suicide?

    If I read this right, you can run anything you like on this generation of chips, EXCEPT for all Windows versions before Win 10. This is a good strategy for defending your consumer base? Really? Seeing that Win 10 seems to screw up everything it comes into contact with, and that every "Windows" release (update) from now on will be essentially a beta at best - faults to be identified first by users?

    I have not used anything made by Microsoft for several years now, so I can be quite detached as I observe their decline. But it is still disturbing watching a once great company determined to turn themselves into a toxic brand. Why?

    1. toughluck

      Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

      Isn't that a bit harsh? Linux, OSX, Android and iOS are hardly bug-free, aren't they? You're singling out Microsoft as though they were the only ones to do this.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

        "Linux, OSX, Android and iOS are hardly bug-free, aren't they?"

        He didn't say they were.

        "You're singling out Microsoft as though they were the only ones to do this."

        He was singling out Microsoft for their strategy.

        1. toughluck

          Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

          Really, he wasn't singling them out? This paragraph comes across as crass, then:

          Seeing that Win 10 seems to screw up everything it comes into contact with, and that every "Windows" release (update) from now on will be essentially a beta at best - faults to be identified first by users?

          Seems to be the case with Linux, OSX, Android and iOS as well. If this is standard industry practice, why point at Microsoft?

          FWIW, I didn't have problems with upgrading to 10. Not on my phone, not on my wife's archaic netbook, not on my desktop, and not on the corporate laptop. I can understand user frustration, but other than some specialized corner cases, most of them should have no problems with Windows 10. And overblowing specialized uses to cover the entire market is silly.

          1. Kiwi Silver badge
            Linux

            Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

            Seems to be the case with Linux, OSX, Android and iOS as well. If this is standard industry practice, why point at Microsoft?

            The difference is simply that all the others actually test their patches etc before they send them out. Sure, sometimes there's a problem, something gets missed, but that's relatively rare.

            With Windows 10 it's every few weeks that hardware gets killed (eg recently web cams (though I think they did people a favour there!), or settings get wiped, software that MS doesn't like (sorry, "does not reccommend") gets removed on a whim (sorry, "to help protect you from yourself because you didn't really want to run that expensive top-of-the-line program when our nasty utter shite rubbish does almost the same job, except it only lacks 90% of the functionality)

            FWIW, I didn't have problems with upgrading to 10. Not on my phone, not on my wife's archaic netbook, not on my desktop, and not on the corporate laptop. I can understand user frustration, but other than some specialized corner cases, most of them should have no problems with Windows 10. And overblowing specialized uses to cover the entire market is silly.

            Yes. All those people from home users to enterprise level, from grans who barely know where the power switch is to long-term computer professionals are wrong because you got it right. Did you ever stop to think that with the numbers given, perhaps you are a "specialized corner cases" and the others - the ones who have all the problems with WinX, are the norm?

            Or perhaps M$ are paying you to believe that. Or drugging you. Or something. Can they actually pay you enough?

            (hey M$, I'm out of a job atm. How'd ya like to have a hard-core Linux geek suddenly start singing WinX's praise? Give me a call will ya? I come cheap, you should be able to buy me for oh, maybe 50,000/wk to speak good of your shit)

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

            "Seems to be the case with Linux, OSX, Android and iOS as well. If this is standard industry practice, why point at Microsoft?"

            I can't speak for the rest - and as they are tied to H/W vendors in some degree there could well be other shenanigans in place there - the thing about Linux is that there are distros which range from bleeding edge to conservative. Nobody is forced onto any particular one. Users who want to be beta testers will choose the former, those, like me, who just want to get stuff done will be on the latter. The Microsoft strategy seems to be that if you're a not able to pay for enterprise licensing (and that includes SMBs and professionals) you're a beta tester for those who are.

      2. Wayland Bronze badge

        Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

        "Isn't that a bit harsh? Linux, OSX, Android and iOS are hardly bug-free" - no there are bugs in Windows 10 that should have been detected and fixed just days into it's release if not before. I had to go online and read up a procedure to make Outlook work on Windows 10.

        The customer just wanted a PC which they could do web and email and word processing. They were not hooked on Outlook as they are just as happy with Gmail. They like Word and Excel but I expect they would be OK with Libra Office.

        An Apple PC would have done them OK and they have used them in the past. Their till is Windows based but I think it's Windows 7.

        The people who build tills are not wedded to Windows, it's just what they happen to use. Since they hook the tills up to the e-commerce website these people know Linux and web already. I can see the PC till being replaced by a device that's just a web terminal.

    2. Updraft102 Silver badge

      Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

      "But it is still disturbing watching a once great company determined to turn themselves into a toxic brand. Why?"

      I think the idea is to get out of the OS business and for MS to become strictly a cloud services company. I see Windows evolving into nothing more than a frontend for their cloud services, thin-client style, for the enterprise sector, with home users cut loose completely. This is the only thing that really makes sense in light of their unprecedented hostility toward their own home customers, not just in terms of the aggressive upgrade push, but also in terms of the forced upgrades that install themselves whenever they want, the spying that can't be turned completely off, the ads that can't be disabled, the automatic app downloads that can't be stopped, the group policies that no longer work, all that stuff. Enterprise customers have been immune to all of this; it's the home customers that get the worst of it.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

        " Enterprise customers have been immune to all of this; it's the home customers that get the worst of it."

        And the SMBs and professionals. The standard line trotted out here by the MS supporters has been that they have to fork out for enterprise licences whether they meet the enterprise volume or not.

    3. Fihart

      Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

      Too right.

      Just met with the 4th and 5th Windows 7 users I know who've been hijacked by Win10 and left with laptops that now don't fully work -- in this case non-functioning optical drive and sluggish performance.

      Problem, these are Japanese girls in London who personally imported Toshiba domestic market models (for the Japanese keyboard).

      Couldn't face spending hours tearing my hair out on machines 5 years old -- with the serious complication that the home website would be in a language I don't understand.

      Helpfully, an IPad bought in UK has on-screen keyboard in software so supports all major languages.

      Another two customers lost to Microsoft.

      1. toughluck

        Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

        I upgraded my wife's netbook (an Acer with AMD C-50 APU) to Windows 10. It was previously running Windows 7 starter and I upgraded RAM to 4 GB and replaced the drive with an SSD, but 7 felt sluggish, but I couldn't do anything about it, it just took a long time, but according to Task Manager, nothing took up too much resources.

        I upgraded it to Windows 10, it still felt sluggish.

        I could bash Microsoft, but I decided to check what caused it and found that Windows Defender defaulted to scan the drive on certain activities, such as connecting to a network. A couple of clicks later, I rescheduled Defender scan to once nightly, and performance went up, way up.

        Non-functioning optical drive? In what sense? Didn't it work at all (doubtful), or didn't it play DVDs? In the latter case, install VLC, Microsoft decided to remove DVD support from Windows 10 (it was only ever present in 7 and 8, as other releases, including XP, didn't support DVD playback without 3rd party tools), since most new laptops are sold without optical drives and since free solutions are frequently better than proprietary. If it didn't work at all, it's probably a hardware fault, since SATA drives are totally generic. Either way, maybe a few clicks away from installing a driver from Toshiba.

        To be honest, I don't sympathize with these girls. They imported their laptop from abroad and they seriously can't expect locals who don't know the language to be able to support them if they run into any issues.

        And frankly, there are at least a few solutions for them if they were using a laptop with a UK or US keyboard layout (from the most lazy to the least):

        1. Buy a set of keycaps for Japanese, and switch Windows language to Japanese (Windows 10 doesn't limit this to Ultimate editions).

        2. Switch Windows to Japanese, but make your own keycaps. You'll need a printer, a sheet of printable stickers, scissors, invisible/magic/whatever tape (not ordinary scotch) and a free afternoon.

        3. Switch Windows to Japanese and learn to touch type.

        Optionally, you can leave Windows in English and install just the Japanese IME. Buying or making own keycaps is optional. For the more ambitious, download MS KLC and use it to make your own keyboard layout to have multiple language support without switching to Japanese.

        1. RAMChYLD
          Coffee/keyboard

          Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

          > 1. Buy a set of keycaps for Japanese, and switch Windows language to

          > Japanese (Windows 10 doesn't limit this to Ultimate editions).

          > 2. Switch Windows to Japanese, but make your own keycaps. You'll need

          > a printer, a sheet of printable stickers, scissors, invisible/magic/whatever

          > tape (not ordinary scotch) and a free afternoon.

          > 3. Switch Windows to Japanese and learn to touch type.

          It doesn't work that way. You can use IME, but real Japanese Windows requires a Japanese keyboard. And Japanese keyboards are not like US/UK keyboards due to Japanese keyboards having three extra keys to toggle between kanji/hiragana/katakana glyphs and the western alphabet that are not found in US/UK keyboards (in fact, US keyboards cannot stand in for a UK keyboard, a UK keyboard has two backslash keys- one which switch into a set of symbols, which US ones lack).

  14. NateGee

    Does this mean...

    That it won't be possible to just add the necessary USB drivers to boot.wim and install.wim?

    I've had to do this on the image at work for the latest PCs (try installing Windows without a keyboard!) so I'm struggling to think why I couldn't is all.

    1. theblackhand Silver badge

      Re: Does this mean...

      I think MS's answer actually translates to "we won't release updated install media to support newer hardware on "legacy" Windows OS's".

      As usual, there will be a little bit of noise followed by someone releasing a tool to create bootable media to get around this.

      MS will replace the PR person with a new one with less bullet holes in their feet and a bigger gun...

      1. Mage Silver badge

        Re: Does this mean...

        Yes, years ago I made a slipstream disk for XP with SATA drivers, as the SATA drivers don't come on floppies (and you can't swap the CD / DVD). In the olden days the SCSI RAID controller drivers came on floppies, so you could add the driver at install.

        If there are drivers that work on windows version < 10, someone will figure out how to install.

      2. ad47uk

        Re: Does this mean...

        I still have a Blue-ray writer on my computer, so I could just burn the Iso of windows 8 onto a disk and then install from that, or i could use Universal usb installer to make a bootable copy of windows 8.1 onto a usb stick, would that not sort the problem?

        Saying all of that the drivers still need to be produced for the new chipsets once the Os is up and running.

        This news have got me thinking now, I will looking at updating, I have a an AMd 8350 machine at the moment and been waiting for the new zen and also looking at Intel, but if MS is going to dictate what OS I can use, then I will stay with what I have got. My motherboard is dying, so what ever I do I need to do it in the near future.

  15. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

    Fewer bugs, fewer problems

    "[...] less code, fewer bugs, fewer problems for everyone"

    I just laughed so hard, I think a bit of wee came out.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Fewer bugs, fewer problems

      "less code, fewer bugs, fewer problems for everyone" {W.T.F?}

      yeah, having less code in their code base means they can LAY OFF MORE STAFF, like the way they canned all of their Q.A. people prior to Win-10-nic's release, so that they could use the general public as their "beta test" for all of the forced windows updates, and "save money".

      it's all about M-shaft wanting to keep their cash on hand [in non-US banks] so their stock value doesn't crater.

      (they've stopped with shooting their own feet. they're up past the kneecaps already, heading for the groin)

  16. mANgLEr

    You can install Win7 on a Kaby Lake CPU/mobo by using NTLite to slipstream the Intel USB drivers. Also handy for adding default configuration for our site; such as NTP, WSUS and default accounts. Have also started doing this for Win10 as well, but that's to mainly remove the crud.

  17. frank ly

    Windows 10

    The 'gift' that keeps on taking (the piss).

  18. Tubz
    FAIL

    Funny how Win7 update is basically broke too, Microshafts plan to force us to use Win10 and the hardware manufacturers, going along with it to sell units. Linux is starting to look appealing as it has nearly everything Windows has for a business, just game support lacking for the consumer and the day when game developers strat looking at Linux for real will be the death knell for Microshaft !

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Easy fix for Windows Update stalling on Win7

      I've had a few goes at making Windows Update work on a Windows 7 SP1 fresh install in the last year or so and always got there eventually (starting from the MS DVD of Win 7 Pro 64 SP1) but it's been very tedious, very hit and miss. But all that is fixed for now.

      Some kind contributor on here (pschonaut) suggested that the essentials are simply a fresh SP1 install plus manually downloaded and installed copies of

      KB3050265

      KB3102810

      And indeed it seems to do the trick for me, remarkably quickly and with remarkably little hassle.

      Once installed, obviously ensure the update selection is "important updates only" (optional updates are not welcome) and off you go. It just works.

      Thank you pschonaut.

      If any kind people out there want to ensure this info is propagated across stackexchange and the blogiverse etc (ideally after checking that it works for you too, and also reducing the Win10 usage figures even further), that would be very much appreaciated (in userland if not in Redmond).

  19. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    Can you spell lawsuit?

    This has restrictive practice written all over it and is likely to backfire in a completely unnecessary way on Microsoft and Intel and AMD.

    When purchase an operating system you obtain it with statutory rights and not with just the bollocks they put in the (generally) invalid EULA. This includes being able to run the OS on any hardware that meets the minimum specification.

    Now, it might be okay for MS to disable certain functionality if hardware support is required that wasn't available at the time (encryption springs to mind but there are other examples). However, fiddling around with synthetic limitations like this is about the best thing MS can do to annoy its enterprise customers. While some of them will play along, others will go with different hardware. Or, and this really ought to scare Microsoft, bring forward BYOD / other platform plans.

    And class action lawsuits by individuals shouldn't be ruled out either and they could be big, not just financially but also in the amount of information they might have to turn over in the discovery phase.

    There is an easy way out for Microsoft: concentrate on fixing Windows 10 so that people will really want to use it and keep the free "upgrade" open. Shitting on your customers' doorstep is not going to get them to love you.

    1. Howverydare

      Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

      Wow, not all that bright.

      Whilst I'm not a fan of this 'plan', it's more an unintended consequence of someone finally (finally!) deciding it's time to stop dragging legacy shit around for a free ride. UEFI has been out long enough but we still seem to have options to run legacy BIOS. xHCI has been out long enough but we still seem to drag around the legacy *HCI interfaces to support 'native not USB3' ports.

      For Microsoft, this is a no-brainer. If they say it's supported, but you need the *right* installer then you have far too much of the population with the wrong media stirring up a storm over their lack of understanding. If they say it's not supported, people stay on Windows 10 and get over themselves or move on to Linux. Still cheaper to lose a few from the fence than it is to staff the support desks for the onslaught of the morons.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

      @Charlie

      HAHAHAHAH, Oh wait, you're being serious, in that case let me laugh even harder....

      "When purchase an operating system you obtain it with statutory rights ... This includes being able to run the OS on any hardware that meets the minimum specification."

      Does it fuck, Besides, MS are clearly saying that the minimum specification is now intel Kaby or its AMD equivalent. What they are in essence doing is also applying a MAXIMUM specification for anything below windows 10... Its skylake or lower. This is not unusual as you wouldnt expect to be able to install mac os9 on current hardware... you wouldnt expect to install Fedora1 on the most recent hardware without some issues.

      "And class action lawsuits by individuals shouldn't be ruled out" - Do you know what a class action suit is? I dont think you do.

      What I suspect is going to happen is that things wont have actually changed that much - new install media wont be released but there will be ways of installing older OSs on the hardware, even something as crude as using a skylake to do the install and swapping the CPU out would likely work (I accept that this is not ideal but as an example it will likely be possible).

      I know a lot of people don't like windows 10 but I really don't see the issue, windows 8 and 8.1 were almost universally hated as was vista so that leaves you with XP or windows 7 as options... is windows 7 really that much better than win 10 that it justifies the amount of gnashing of teeth that is currently going on? I don't think so,

      1. toughluck

        Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

        People seem wed to the idea that Microsoft alternates good and bad releases, starting with Windows 95 (bad), followed by OSR2 (good), 98, 98 OSR2, Me, XP (conveniently forgetting that 2000 was better, even if it didn't have all that eye candy), Vista, 7 and it becomes a blur afterwards.

        It was easy to hate 8, and 8.1 didn't help out much. I guess Windows 10 was overhyped, people were expecting it to be the new XP. It kind of is (it runs faster than 7 or 8), but overblown reports of failures (frequently at users' own fault) allowed haters to pile hate on it.

        Now, a year ago I thought Windows 10 was shit based on all the articles I read. I was using Linux wherever I could, including on my work PC, until I was told in no uncertain terms that I have to switch to officially supported Windows. While I wasn't happy about it and I wanted to make life at corporate IT support as hard as I could and maybe try to claw back to Linux, I also came to Windows with an open mind and decided to give it a chance.

        1. BaronMatrix

          Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

          it is shit based on me having it on a laptop... I had Win 8 on my desktop and it was a NIGHTMARE... Win 10 on my laptop is even worse... I have lost work because not every app has AutoSave and Restore... Especially SQL where I do a LOT of work...

          They have hosed my machine several tmes with these untested Beta updates they force on you... Dear Satya,WHY THE FUCK DID YOU FIRE ALL THE TESTERS.. ? I had already QUIT your fiefdom crap with non-technical people designing features...

          If a person needs help turning their machine on they should not be able to dictate to KERNEL developers...

        2. Updraft102 Silver badge

          Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

          "but overblown reports of failures (frequently at users' own fault) allowed haters to pile hate on it."

          I never had any of the failures with Windows 10. On all of the systems on which I tested it, everything worked as intended.

          I still hate Windows 10. MS intended for it to be as awful as it is. It's not bad because it is buggy or malfunctioning... it's bad because it was engineered to be bad.

        3. Lorin Thwaits

          Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

          Sincere condolences for having to work in an environment where a Microsoft OS is mandatory. Huge reason to consider finding a new workplace.

        4. Kiwi Silver badge
          Linux

          Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

          People seem wed to the idea that Microsoft alternates good and bad releases,

          Depending on how you view 8.1, they broke that - 8 utter shit, 8.1 shit (but maybe the "good" one because it was supposedly better than 8), and 10 being worse still, and continuously bad with forced updates that so often break stuff. On and there's 10 A&E, breaking even more stuff badly. So really for the last 3 (4 counting A&E) they've just release shit apon shit. Like a diaretic drunkard.

          but overblown reports of failures (frequently at users' own fault) allowed haters to pile hate on it.

          Really? So those people who have their machines break after forced updates (including the recent one that broke powershell and the remedy instructions from MS - "use POWERSHELL to uninstall the update that broke powershell coz we are to busy fixing other fuckups to get on to it just now") are somehow at fault, even though the updates are FORCED and they cannot do anything to stop it, maybe not even delay it? Maybe it's their fault for expecting their hardware to keep working? Or expecting to be able to use their machines for stuff they want? Expecting to let a long job complete without a random reboot? Expecting to be able to play a game without the machine rebooting? Maybe they're at fault for expecting settings to remain as they want them? Or for expecting to turn their machines on and find the same software it had yesterday?

          Just what of these is the users fault? What of the great many reported breakages is the users fault?

          And just how much are you being paid by MS to spout this drivel?

          (You might accuse me of being paid by "Linux" to say what I say - and you'd be right, I am. I am paid in having my machine work, without issue unless I screw something up or hardware fails. I'm paid in having it do what I tell it to, without changing just because I did an update. I'm paid in not having to worry about updates breaking it. And I am paid in being able to keep my sanity and integrity).

      2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

        I know a lot of people don't like windows 10 but I really don't see the issue,

        Then I suspect you don't work professionally with computers. Microsoft's policy may well annoy business companies so much that they look for alternatives, or look even harder if they do already. The telemetry and sloppy update process are real blockers here. Any hint of a different deal for business users is only going to be bad PR for "normal" users.

        As for lawsuits: there is ample case law for this kind of restrictive practice and as a result I don't see them following through.

    3. BaronMatrix

      Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

      Maybe they should make Windows 10 not blow beta chunks all over everything.. They broke my laptop several times with updates... And the HORRID high contrast UI makes my head hurt.. I'm a developer so I'm using a PC for most of my waking hours and my productivity sucked on Win 8.1...

      I RDP into my Win 10 laptop and Win7 looks like the newer UI... Windows 10 looks like the let their grade school kids design it... After pumping them for of Adderrall...

      I want Zen FX but not that bad.. THINK ABOUT IT...

      1. Wayland Bronze badge

        Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

        It seems to me that Windows 10 is having the bloat removed and the hardware performance requirements reduced. Why else would it run faster on the same hardware?

        The strategy of forcing the upgrade only makes sense if the performance requirement is the same or less than the current OS. This explains the rather noddy interface with no fancy graphical effects.

        I can see MS doing this in order to simplify their workload by getting everyone on the same OS.

        The burden of all this falls on the users and the users support people. If MS had to pay the costs of this then it would be financially bad for them.

        Microsoft are probably heading for a subscription model where you pay for your OS along with your mobile phone bill or Internet bill. Stop paying and your computer stops working.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

      Greatest respect etc, but quite a few people on here seem to be forgetting that people in the real world don't choose to buy Windows. People in the real world choose to buy a PC/laptop etc, and MS's sweetheart deals with the major system vendors and major retailers ensure that it's a lot easier to buy a consumer box with Windows than it is to buy one without Windows.

      End users are no longer important MS customers (at least wrt OS sales). System builders are the OS customers that matter, and it's been that way for years.

      Office etc is a slightly different story.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

        "End users are no longer important MS customers (at least wrt OS sales). System builders are the OS customers that matter, and it's been that way for years."

        But system builders don't build systems for the purpose of hoarding them in warehouses - at least they don't intend to. So if MS's antics put potential end users off buying their product they're going to let MS know about it at some stage. Alternatively they might build more chromebooks, or maybe something else. I wonder what Fuschia is going to be aimed at...

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The difference between dishonest-Intel's 6 and 7 generation is too little. Will buy an AMD Zen soon. It's current performance is better than core series's from all sides.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Someone didnt read the headline... "Latest Intel, ***AMD*** chips will only run Windows 10 ... and Linux, BSD, OS X"

  21. Marty McFly
    Mushroom

    @Windows 10

    If the product is free, then YOU are the product. Windows 10 is all about selling ME to someone else. Microsoft can go pound sand. I do not want to be sold. I am not for sale.

    1. Sandtitz Silver badge

      Re: @Marty McFly

      "If the product is free, then YOU are the product."

      Big fail there. Windows 10 is not free, it was free to upgrade from Win7/8 for a year. I'm also using Firefox and several other free software and I don't consider myself as the product. (well, with Chrome you could argue otherwise and with Apple software on Windows you're actually a tool...)

      Which PC operating systems cost money these days? None except Windows. Does Linux/BSD/OSX/Android/ChromeOS make you the product? (well, some of them might)

      1. Hans 1 Silver badge
        Windows

        Re: @Marty McFly

        What he means is: commercial software that is gratis means YOU are the product - which is spot on.

        The fact that you now must pay Redmond to take part in the data-harvest is hilarious, I even heard they manage to sell that pile to people, honest!

    2. fung0

      Re: @Windows 10

      Marty McFly: "I am not for sale."

      I'm definitely for sale. But so far, there's been an extremely disappointing lack of buyers willing to meet my base price.

    3. toughluck

      @Marty McFly: I disagree with that notion.

      Android, Chrome, Google, OSX, iOS, et al, is all about selling YOU to someone else, too, and people will happily line up and spend a lot of money on these. Microsoft just joined the fray, and let me add, they joined it really late in the game.

      Honestly, all other products sold you several times over by now.

  22. PaulR79

    A question

    Is this the same as "not supported but will work" or "not supported and you will probably have issues trying to get it to run"?

    1. Sandtitz Silver badge

      Re: A question @PaulR

      Hard to say since Kaby Lake is not out quite yet.

      This is likely the "not supported so may or may not work" scenario. A Kaby Lake computer may also have some fancy brand new devices for which the manufacturer hasn't bothered to create Windows 7 compatible drivers - but probably you can at least install Win7 as long as you modify the installation media to include USB 3 and NVMe drivers.

  23. anoco

    DR-DOSJA VU?

    I smell a fake incompatibility code in the silicone. But this time the defendant is colluding with the perpetrator. So no lawsuits here.

    With all the chicanery history coming form MS, I cannot help to think that they paid Intel and AMD to insert code to check for all other windowses and return an error. It's not beyond them.

    Just like it's not beyond them to reveal a nasty W7 vulnerability on January 15 2020. Sorry all you Window's only folks, you need to buy a shinny new PC. Microsoft will then have arrived at Apple's nirvana.

    Only to find out they can't compete there either...

    1. Smedley54

      Re: DR-DOSJA VU?

      Microsoft would probably like to avoid a repeat of Windows XP, a.k.a., the OS that forgot to die. Chatter about vulnerabilities is contrived, but as the programmers that wrote it retire and die, and The Kids want their own toys, even Microsoft has to make choices.

    2. Lorin Thwaits

      Re: DR-DOSJA VU?

      "...fake incompatibility code in the silicone" -- haha, sounds like Microsoft has made a boob job.

      1. Kiwi Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: DR-DOSJA VU?

        ... sounds like Microsoft has made a boob job.

        WTF do you thin Win10 is?

        (And not the nice ones either, but the ones that look fake, feel fake, sag and leak toxins everywhere...)

  24. Smedley54

    Unless you have legacy applications that require an older OS, this only stings for a moment. Adapt and overcome or look around for a more static line of work; this one gets cleared out every few years whether we like it or not.

    1. fung0

      Perspective

      I don't think anyone here is against the idea of change - let alone progress.

      This is more like a messy divorce. I'm happy to be building a better future with Linux. But I still hate Microsoft for destroying our long and productive relationship.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "Unless you have legacy applications that require an older OS, this only stings for a moment."

      Do you mean legacy applications such as those which handle personal data? You know, those where lack of security could mean serious regulatory repercussions.

  25. JJKing Silver badge

    It gets tricky if the install is done from a usb3.x port.

    Maybe I am misreading things but I slipstreamed the xHCI drivers into Windows 7 with the WindowsImageTool supplied by Gigabyte. Installed just nice on the USB 3.0 port. There was a USB 2.0 port but kept getting the same error message and no installation. Can't find the error image I had taken but so can't provide the wording but this was a new ASUS motherboard and i5 CPU.

    1. toughluck

      I had a problem when trying to reinstall Windows on a laptop that only had USB 3.0 ports. None of them were accepted (the USB stick failed to boot on any of them). It seemed like UEFI limitation.

      Luckily, I had USB 2.0 ports on the docking station and it booted without a hitch from them.

      What I haven't tried is disabling USB 3.0 in UEFI setup. I suppose this has to be a potential solution, but it only occurred to me after I have already installed the OS, and I also haven't tried a USB 3.0 stick in a USB 3.0 port.

      It failed to boot live Linux USB sticks as well, though, not just Windows.

      1. Conundrum1885 Bronze badge

        Yup

        Same problem here. Some older machines had USB 2 and USB 3.0 ports for this reason so the manufacturers could indeed load the OS or at least a bootloader rather than ship dozens of different HDDs they can simply send out a generic 1TB drive and instructions.

        Its actually possible to download an image for some better manufacturers simply by providing proof of purchase and warranty.

        The newer ones are a pain, as many boards also ship with no IDE controllers.

        Interesting factoid, I've had some success booting OtherOS (tm) by replacing the BIOS chip with a new one pre-burned with both the Windows key and an older firmware on 44 pin TQFP.

        Worked for me, the replacement chip not only un-bricked the machine but enabled full support for booting external devices again.

      2. illiad

        Disable the UEFI!!

        its makes things much simpler...

        it will usually be hidden under 'legacy boot' and may need 'secure boot' switched off to be able to do that..

        1. toughluck

          Re: Disable the UEFI!!

          I actually tried disabling UEFI and secure boot. The OS still failed to boot. I fiddled with other settings, and it finally booted. The Windows 10 corporate image installer told me it needs secure boot to be enabled for the installation to proceed.

          I tried to get the laptop to boot that stick (on the USB 3 port) with the same settings again later (I thought I could maybe trick the installer or that there may be some advanced options), but it failed, and I couldn't get it to boot again until switching to the USB 2.0 port.

          1. illiad

            Re: Disable the UEFI!! FOR WIN7!!

            @toughluck: you need to be clearer!!

            er, win10 is designed for using UEFI... If win 10 install/ whatever will not start, it may be corrupt... go back to the company and get them to fix it if you DID want win10..

            if you want Win 7, check your chipset - if it is skylake or newer, then it needs drivers even for USB2! (the BIOS will read it, but after that it passes control to the chipset and fails..) put all your drivers on an optical disc, works for me..

            1. toughluck

              Re: Disable the UEFI!! FOR WIN7!!

              Not to be crass, but I already said I was able to boot that USB stick without any problems -- people here suggested to try with legacy boot enabled and secure boot disabled, which I did out of frustration during the process.

              I didn't make any changes to the USB stick -- it wasn't corrupted (well, other than having Windows on it ;-) ), the same stick failed to boot every time, and it was a eureka moment when I thought I could try in one of the USB 2.0 ports in the docking station, at which point it ran as if there were no problems with it at all.

    2. illiad

      Ah, ASUS drivers etc can be a bit tricky... :O

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    My i7 laptop will quite happily boot DOS from a USB floppy

    so if the processor itself is incompatible, as opposed to nobody's going to release drivers for some of the motherboard devices, this smacks of them deliberately screwing with us. (And not just us but potentially a lot of enterprise customers.)

  27. MachDiamond Silver badge

    An argument lost

    I work primarily on a Mac and have done since 1985. I still have to use a Windows computer for certain tasks since many very specialized applications and some mainstream CAD programs are only available to run under Windows. I also use Linux for embedded work.

    One of the arguments that I hear about using Apple hardware is that it's not upgradeable but it seems like a new socket comes out once a month for PC architecture CPU's making processor upgrades on PC's impossible. Now the CPU's are going to be slaves to a version of Windows.

    I'm going to need to add a few PC's to backup inventory so I can keep using W7. I can't afford to spend another £7500 to upgrade applications to W10 and I find the UI to be a PIA. Maybe when W12 rolls out it will be usable again. Every time M$ tries to reinvent the OS, they fall flat on their face. I don't think that they understand how much money it costs to retrain an office full of staff and to deal with bugs slowing things down for the first 6 months after a major release.

  28. j2f8j8j2fj

    Virtualize

    Just run the older version of Windows on top of KVM. Problem solved. Considering many new Intel chips come with an IGP you can pass a cheap gpu through. Of course with any luck Virgil3d will mature and one can use that instead.

  29. illiad

    TLDR, but they said that before...

    "win7/8 wont run on old {fill in something here..} " they said.... they even said UEFI would be the 'only way' ...

    many companies soon realized the big *financial* mistake that was, and enabled 'legacy bios' again...

    And I am sure there are many pirates cranking out lots of 'legacy stuff' to fill the massive demand coming!!!

  30. Kiwi Silver badge
    WTF?

    I could be wrong but...

    This enables us to focus on deep integration between Windows and the silicon, while maintaining maximum reliability and compatibility with previous generations of platform and silicon.

    And

    Windows 10 will be the only supported Windows platform on Intel’s upcoming 7th Gen Intel Core (Kaby Lake) silicon.

    Aren't they kinda mutually exclusive? Are you going for "maximum .. compatibility with previous generations of platform" or "Windows 10 .... only supported"?

    Or should I not be reading techstuff after midnight on a Saturday (or Sunday for the pedants)?

    As to "maximum reliability" and "Windows" - pffft!

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: I could be wrong but...

      "Or should I not be reading techstuff after midnight on a Saturday"

      Your problem is that because it contains techy words you think it was written by a fellow tech who should be expected to think logically. It was written by a PR person who probably gets stuck at "think" and for whom "logically" is far beyond reach.

      1. Kiwi Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: I could be wrong but...

        Your problem is that because it contains techy words you think it was written by a fellow tech who should be expected to think logically.

        That could explain the confusion!

        Today could be worse - Sunday morning and only 5 or 6 hours sleep... But the overhaul is awaiting parts and summer is comming, so bring on the games while I still have a chance!

  31. Florida1920
    Pint

    Best sales force Linux ever had

    That would be Microsoft.

  32. Lord_Beavis

    Pardon my French, but,...

    Fuck Microsoft with a big green donkey dick. In the ass. Repeatedly.

    I am so done with them.

  33. davidYuen

    Will solaris x86 support AMD Zen or Naples?

  34. IceMyth

    Will, I don't know, was Win10 biggest success for MS, and not Win7? Will MS doing this because they found them selves loosing what they planned for -> that everyone will upgrade to Win10 (AND stay) so they can get access to more personal data and sell them but they found that so many people reverted back to Win7 or 8.1 or never upgraded (Compare to market)! So they ended loosing by selling Win10 for free and now what they can do? Simply 2 new CPU are coming and so many people want the upgrade so we will force Only Win10 can enjoy these CPU's.

    I personally wanted to upgrade for 2 reasons (Gaming & Processing Data), but seems either as I refused to be forced to upgrade to Win10:

    1- Will keep what I have for gaming and and build new PC (Linux for sure) with new CPU.

    2- Or just upgrade to Skylake and enjoy it for both gaming and processing data!

  35. Hans 1 Silver badge
    Windows

    ?

    >there's less hardware to test

    When did MS start testing Windows 10? I thought we were the official Windows 10 testers ...

  36. jeffty

    What's to stop...

    ... AMD, Intel and other processor vendors from writing their own drivers to fill the gaps for older operating systems to run on new hardware?

    Microsoft don't control their entire ecosystem (unlike Apple), so can't prevent third party drivers being written that provide the necessary compatibility...

  37. Mandoscottie

    Tell me a better joke....

    the Day MS carry this out, is the day ill go to work in just a mankini.....ill bet you a XXXL Yellow mankini they will support them in W7, enterprise would ream them otherwise until at least 2020.

    You know the new MS, they never backpedal or change....../S

    1. anoco

      Re: Tell me a better joke....

      And who in their right mind would take you in a lose-lose bet like that? At least add that you'll shave your whole body and lose 80lbs before you down the yellow mankini.

      Otherwise, we'll think you're a MS marketboi trying to scare us into W10 ((yes... let's put Jabba in a yellow mankini working on a W7 flabtop, that will drive them to W10 real fast))

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I thought AMD wanted a comeback?

    I was looking forward to Zen chips, but if they're not going to support WIndows 7, then there's an 8-core Haswell that will be my CPU for the next 5 years.

  39. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    With Windoze being on a subscription, and I assume that the annual renewal of that subscription will cost money, and chips being locked down to the latest version of Windoze, the PC industry will have its dream come true - corporations and individuals will have to upgrade both hardware and software every three years or so. That will put a tremendous financial burden on both industrial customer and individuals. I also assume that if the subscription is not done, the old operating system will just shut down.

    1. illiad

      syeah... more likely people will just not buy, just like what happened earlier... returned PCs, "duh, it does not work! "

      even the whole Police force are still using XP!!!

  40. Conundrum1885 Bronze badge

    I have a confession

    Still using XP. And 7. And Windows 98 (because it won't run anything else, cough industrial PC /cough)

    Its a problem but if you glue the USB ports and only ever use pressed disks, basic security is fine.

    It has antivirus and the ability to restore the OS if things go south.

    Backup system: internal BIOS is password protected and can't be changed because I took the CMOS battery out to ensure no data retention.

    Sure malware can mess with it but it fails in the "no longer boots" safe mode.

    One sure fire way to ensure you never get 0wn3d is to use a really old PC and only use it with a bootable media burned to CD which in the event of a drive issue nukes and paves itself then reloads from the backup which is a <10 minute job.

    All the user data is stored on write once read many (WORM) drive which writes the raw files directly to Flash then updates the file table to lock the sectors permanently.

  41. gregg68

    about windows 7

    I have a sickness where I seem to must have the fastest CPU that a manufacturer makes. I went with the AM4 socket this time and bought a Ryzen CPU. Then I tried installing windows 7 ultimate and of course, it would not happen..This cramming of Win 10 down my throat made me angry. But I went ahead and bought the win 10 OS just to get my computer back up and running. But I am going to go to the internet and look for an AM3 system to run for now. I will set this damned win 10 system off to the side for a while. Companies who try to monopolize a market can go straight to the unemployment line as far as I am concerned. I think I am cured of my sickness now that I see what is going on.

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