back to article Corbyn lied, Virgin Trains lied, Harambe died

So, Jeremy Corbyn recorded a message in which he was sitting on the floor of a train traveling between London and Newcastle, claiming it was "ram-packed" (as exampled by his floor sitting) and that was why all of the trains needed to be renationalised. While on the floor in a video for The Guardian's website, Jez said: "This …

  1. Tom 7 Silver badge

    Cant see where he lied

    just saying.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cant see where he lied

      Corbyn must be discredited because he is "unelectable".

      As in not the PM Rupert Murdoch wants.

      1. Patrician

        Re: Cant see where he lied

        Corbyn needs to be discredited because he is undetectable, as you stated. While he my be the saviour of British Politics that his supporters believe him to be, it's not his supporters that need to vote for him to get him into office. And that is where the problem lies; the borderline Labour voter will not vote for him as his policies are firmly entrenched in the Foot and Benn style Labour party of the '70's. And the Labour voter that he appeals to, and would be his natural supporter, no longer exist in any great numbers.

        Still, so long as he's the leader of the Labour party we can be assured of a Tory government so there's something to be depressed about.

        1. Triggerfish

          Re: Cant see where he lied

          How do you differentiate between "dishonest" and "lying"?

          I think in politics dishonest is just the assumed general ground state, and lying is when it can be proven.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cant see where he lied

      he didn't, Tom 7............he was sat!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cant see where he lied

      The blatant lie was to say that train was rammed. As a commuter of 20 years I know what a rammed train looks like and consider that train to be pretty empty when he got on, especially in coach H where he walked past mostly empty and all unreserved seats. In fact he walked past the empty seat where he later sat for a couple of hours. The second "lie" was to imply in the photo call that sitting on the floor was the only way for him to get a seat: perhaps not technically a lie but certainly dishonest.

      Now I don't expect politicians to tell the truth, but surely it's part of their professional etiquette that when they lie they should do it convincingly and not get caught out so easily.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Cant see where he lied

        See, the Corbynistas won't argue with you (because it's pretty bloody obvious that Corbo lied), they'll just throw bricks through your window (or downvote you, in this case). It's hilarious that anybody seriously thinks that idot is going to get elected.

        1. Tom 7 Silver badge

          Re: Cant see where he lied

          Still cant see where he lied. The train was pretty much fully booked and all the seats were reserved and others were sitting in the corridors before he started.

          I really cant see why Virgin trains would try to contest what a man who has said he would privatise the railways and ruin their cash cow would try and make him look bad.

          1. R3sistance

            Re: Cant see where he lied

            If he got up and sat on a seat shortly afterwards, then clearly he lied. More so, anybody that has been on these types of trains usually knows the reservation tickets usually have stations printed on them. Since many reserved tickets are for later or earlier stops. Thus the seat is only reserved for certain periods and often not the whole Journey. Unless things have changed in the past five years, that is certainly how I remember it working last time I was on such a train.

        2. Mark Dempster

          Re: Cant see where he lied

          The brick thing has also been comprehensively debunked. There is NO evidence that Corbyn supporters were involved, and the broken window wasn't even in the MP's (Angela Eagle) office - it was in a stairwell shared with 7 other offices. Most likely either plain vandalism or a botched break-in.

          But then, Eagle does have a lot of form for lying recently... most notably for claiming to have experienced homophobic abuse at her constituency meeting, which it's been proved she hadn't even attended.

        3. Hugh Barnard

          Re: Cant see where he lied

          Actually the 'brick' affair has turned out to be in a common part of the building away from Eagle's offices. So I'd place less reliance on media owned by billionaires, if I were you.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Cant see where he lied

        What Virgin should have done is sued for Libel. With the evidence in their back pocket, it would have been even more interesting.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Cant see where he lied

          @AC

          "What Virgin should have done is sued for Libel. With the evidence in their back pocket, it would have been even more interesting."

          Without releasing the evidence it would be an evil corporation vs the saviour of the labour party. And if a charge could be brought to court it would demonstrate how the evil corporations own the law and the conspiracy against Corbyn would be absolute or virgin would release the evidence.

          Sometimes releasing the actual evidence is the only way to prove to the public. Hopefully this wont cause a problem legally.

          1. Why Not?

            Re: Cant see where he lied

            but unfortunately for Virgin they have breached the law by releasing them. they are now in a no win situation.

            What they should have done is asked the Guardian & Corbyn for a retraction or they would see them in court,

            It would then be plucky Virgin stopping a newspaper laying, Corbyn would have been a side issue.

        2. Mark Dempster

          Re: Cant see where he lied

          The other way around, it now seems.

      3. PhilipN Silver badge

        Re: Cant see where he lied

        Stuck in a short train at Paddington at rush hour, waiting and waiting, people packing in and packing in, waiting and waiting...and dripping inside one's shirt....6 square inches of standing room per passenger... boiling hot.... A mate of one of my fellow passengers was about to board, opened the door and as soon as his face was inside recoiled in disgust saying "Cor! You want some oxygen in there?!"

        His mate (the one already on board) shouted "The 6:10 is just as bad, [name withheld]". The guy took a deep breath and squeezed on.

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: Cant see where he lied

          Stuck in a short train at Paddington at rush hour, waiting and waiting, people packing in and packing in, waiting and waiting...and dripping inside one's shirt...

          Dark, satanic trains of the monopolistic capitalists. They are probably even transporting children in there.

          If only there were some germanic communistic discontent with eschatological tendencies, scant knowledge of economics but who had studied that totally tripping absolutistic-monarchy-selling court philosopher Hegel. He could write a multi-volume book about these terrible conditions which could then be distributed via amazon.

          1. Allonymous Coward
            Joke

            Re: Cant see where he lied

            Kapital idea.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Cant see where he lied

        Now I don't expect politicians to tell the truth, but surely it's part of their professional etiquette that when they lie they should do it convincingly and not get caught out so easily.

        I agree. Totally lacks professionalism as a politician to get caught out so easily - honestly, have they no shame?

        :)

      5. Mike 137

        "Rammed"

        Where does this "ram packed" and "rammed" come from? The train would have been rammed if another train had run into it. This train was just jam packed.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "Rammed"

          Ive spent the last hour questioning myself as to whether i had misheard for the last 48 years "ram packed" and not "jam packed".

          I am pleased to report the poisonous little dwarf has it wrong and it IS jam packed.

        2. Rimpel
          Paris Hilton

          Re: "Rammed"

          https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=rammed

          ram

          verb

          1. roughly force (something) into place.

          2.BRITISH informal

          (of a place) be very crowded.

          "the club is rammed to the rafters every week"

          icon - Paris knows what it means

          1. Simon Harris Silver badge

            Re: "Rammed" (quoting Rimpel)

            (of a place) be very crowded.

            "the club is rammed to the rafters every week"

            That one comes from the Oxford University Press

            http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/ram

            When it comes to words, I generally assume they know what they're talking about.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Rammed" (quoting Rimpel)

              Re: "Rammed" (quoting Rimpel)

              (of a place) be very crowded.

              "the club is rammed to the rafters every week"

              Exactly. The definition is a verb - rammed.

              I challenge anyone to find a definition of "Ram-Packed" anywhere.

              1. Arty Effem

                Re: "Rammed" (quoting Rimpel)

                'I challenge anyone to find a definition of "Ram-Packed" anywhere.'

                I challenge anyone to deny my right to coin a phrase on the spur of the moment, especially one likely to be included in future dictionaries.

        3. Imsimil Berati-Lahn

          Re: "Ram Packed"???

          Perhaps it is a reference to programming the venerable ZX81.

          1. AMBxx Silver badge
            FAIL

            Re: "Ram Packed"???

            I travel that line frequently from York to London. On a mid-morning train, I'd be disappointed if I didn't get a whole carriage to myself, it's deserted.

            Only carriage likely to be busy is the one that's offered by default when you reserve a seat. I assume that's the one that Corbyn walked through.

            The story about the family being upgraded sounds like something that's been invented. On a weekend, they often offer cheap upgrades to first. During the week, you pay the full upgrade and that's £100+ per ticket.

            Virgin need to release the figures on the number of travellers - they do a full ticket inspection on leaving London so will know.

      6. Mark Dempster

        Re: Cant see where he lied

        It was made clear at the time that there were spaces in 1st class - but Corbyn chose not to upgrade (because most people can't afford to, and the taxpayer is paying for it).

        There were clearly no seats available, despite Virgin's claims, because Corbyn joined several other people already sitting on the floor.

        45 minutes into the journey a family did get an upgrade to 1st class, enabling Corbyn to take one of their seats.

        All of this is easily verifiable, as other commuters have corroborated it. It also tallies with what Corbyn said at the time.

        The dodgy part comes when you watch the video footage that Virgin released. Look closely at things like camera number, carriage ID, time, etc & you'll see that the footage has not been presented in the right order or from the relevant times in all cases. Put simply, it's faked.

        1. Tom 38 Silver badge

          Re: Cant see where he lied

          It was made clear at the time that there were spaces in 1st class - but Corbyn chose not to upgrade (because most people can't afford to, and the taxpayer is paying for it).

          There were clearly no seats available, despite Virgin's claims, because Corbyn joined several other people already sitting on the floor.

          That train was not even slightly close to packed. I'm certain there were no regular commuters sitting on the floor, we would be in those reserved seats, or sitting in any empty seat without a bag on it, not walking the carriages looking for 4 empty table seats. So many non regular commuters will walk through a carriage with empty seats without saying a word - "Excuse me, is this seat taken?" is not that tricky.

          45 minutes into the journey a family did get an upgrade to 1st class, enabling Corbyn to take one of their seats.

          They moved people to first class so that Jezza could sit next to his aide at a table, not because there were no seats to sit on at all. If you are so precious that you cannot be separated from your travel companions, book seats - unless you are trying to manufacture an outrage to suit your own political agenda.

        2. Red Bren

          Re: Cant see where he lied

          If the train wasn't packed and there were seats available as Virgin Trains are saying, why did they give a 1st class upgrade to that family? Is it Branson's generous new policy to give the proles a chance to see how their masters live?

          More likely they couldn't bribe Corbyn with a first class seat so they shuffled the other passengers around.

        3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: Cant see where he lied

          It was made clear at the time that there were spaces in 1st class - but Corbyn chose not to upgrade (because most people can't afford to, and the taxpayer is paying for it).

          FWIW MPs have allowances precisely to cover things like necessary travel expenses and travel first class if you want to get any work done.

          If this was a business trip he, or his office, should have booked in advance. Seemed to me a bit like it was the first time he's actually travelled outside of London.

          I can't stand the Tories but I have no time for this relic from the 1970s. He's going to ruin the Labour Party and bring down progressive politics with it.

      7. heyrick Silver badge

        Re: Cant see where he lied

        "was the only way for him to get a seat: perhaps not technically a lie but certainly dishonest."

        How do you differentiate between "dishonest" and "lying"? Isn't being dishonest "technically" telling a lie?

      8. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Cant see where he lied

        The blatant lie was to say that train was rammed. As a commuter of 20 years I know what a rammed train looks like

        Am I missing something, but wouldn't a rammed train look sort of crinkled lengthways or with a large dent in the side?

        And a ram-packed train would be full of livestock.

        Did he really mean "jam-packed"?

      9. fwadman

        Re: Cant see where he lied

        in a rammed train you don't have space to sit on the floor ... it's standing all the way

    4. earl grey Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Cant see where he lied

      Go back and watch the part where the lips were moving. That's it. Now you've got it.

  2. Enrico Vanni
    FAIL

    The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

    No pun intended!

    ...and why couldn't Corbyn have been a bit more organised and reserved a seat? His lack of planning does not justify renationalisation of the network.

    1. Dazed and Confused

      Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

      Well if it was anything like the nationalised trains I used to have to try and commute on he wouldn't have been sitting on the floor, he'd have been sitting on the platform like everyone else coz they'd have cancelled it again.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

        "Well if it was anything like the nationalised trains I used to have to try and commute on he wouldn't have been sitting on the floor, he'd have been sitting on the platform like everyone else"

        You had seats on the platforms?

        Yes, I well remember the evening "rush" hours spend on Marylebone station wondering if they'd ever find enough working units to make up a 4-unit train.

      2. Richard 45

        Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

        What, like the private operator Southern Trains?

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

        "Well if it was anything like the nationalised trains I used to have to try and commute on he wouldn't have been sitting on the floor, he'd have been sitting on the platform like everyone else coz they'd have cancelled it again."

        You mean the nationalised trains that had suffered years of underfunding by the Tories in order that they could push through privatisation as a move which would bring positive change? I guess you're right, the mistake wasn't just that the system needed an organisational shake-up plus decent funding and investment! No, of course, it needed a privatised system geared towards profit for corporations, share traders, and fatcats to pocket millions at the expense of customers less able to afford the massively-above-inflation rises in ticket prices, and exacerbate the growing rich-poor divide for decades to come.

        Besides, all you had to do was to pronounce Corbyn unelectable like everyone else and it would automatically disqualify any political stance he holds.

        1. Dave 15

          Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

          The same tories who managed to create a report dismembering the whole goods moving apparatus and most of the rail system when their transport minister owned a road haulage firm?

          Politicians, frankly if we could stick them all on a spacecraft to the sun it would be too few too late.

      4. Patrician

        Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

        This is what I don't understand; I remember the days of British Rail, and not in anyway fondly, late dirty and tatty trains when you actually got one, many were cancelled, and surly, rude staff who couldn't give a flying fig leaf for passengers, were just some of the problems. Why on Earth would anybody want to go back to that?

    2. Steve Foster
      Big Brother

      Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

      While I agree with your sentiment in principle (that two "wrongs" don't make a "right"), if Corbyn has voluntarily waived his right to privacy by publishing "selfies" of his journey, then it can't really be argued that Virgin have breached said right by publishing additional footage of the same journey (not having seen the footage, I would hope that they did at least blur out any other passengers! [or obtain their consent]).

      "...and why couldn't Corbyn have been a bit more organised and reserved a seat? His lack of planning does not justify renationalisation of the network."

      Because *terrorists*, obviously! :)

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

        "...and why couldn't Corbyn have been a bit more organised and reserved a seat? His lack of planning does not justify renationalisation of the network."

        He was organised and planned. They (Corbyn, PR and spin) planned to make a political point. His labour people are quite capable of reserving a seat and would normally do so. On this occasion, taking TV cameras along he went out with the intention of stirring up some shit and was disappointed when there turned out to be seats available anyway. So they went ahead and faked the situation, were caught out and now his PR spin people are working like crazy to limit damage.

        The man is a fake. He tries to sell this man of principle thing, but he has put his personal desire to join the historical list of UK (England and Wales by then) PMs ahead of his party. A narcissist just like all the other PMs.

        Now Labour idiots are going to use their membership to elect a new leader instead of listening to their MPs. The vote of the membership in a general election is already assured, but the MPs are concerned with the vote of the electorate in general - so they should listen to the MPs if they want to get into number 10.

        The tories love Corbyn because he gives them such an easy ride, but it makes me sad because have such a weak and hopeless opposition is bad for the country.

        1. Mark Dempster

          Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

          It was made clear at the time that there were spaces in 1st class - but Corbyn chose not to upgrade (because most people can't afford to, and the taxpayer is paying for it).

          There were clearly no seats available, despite Virgin's claims, because Corbyn joined several other people already sitting on the floor.

          45 minutes into the journey a family did get an upgrade to 1st class, enabling Corbyn to take one of their seats.

          All of this is easily verifiable, as other commuters have corroborated it. It also tallies with what Corbyn said at the time.

          The dodgy part comes when you watch the video footage that Virgin released. Look closely at things like camera number, carriage ID, time, etc & you'll see that the footage has not been presented in the right order or from the relevant times in all cases. Put simply, it's faked.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

          It took Kinnock 3 elections to realise the party loved him but the electorate didnt

          How long it takes Corbyn will determin how long we have to vote Tory

          And notice how we now have a labour Mayor of london and the 24 hour tube union gripes dissapeared without any new offers on the table?

    3. Stuart Halliday

      Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

      Like none of us ever thought that when the train is full to bursting.

    4. Mark Dempster

      Re: The 'two wrongs make a right' argument.

      He did reserve a seat, but missed his train while talking to the public & had to get this one.

  3. Commswonk Silver badge

    Stop whining...

    Neither the Labour Party nor Virgin Trains immediately responded to our enquiries.

    Could you possibly add to your enquiries "Did Mr Corbyn actually try to book a seat?" Given that he does not seem to be complaining that he tried that but none was available it seems fair to assume that he didn't. In which case "why not"?

    If he had tried but been denied on the grounds of non - availability then he might just have had a point, but as it stands this looks like a politician whinging in the (forlorn) hope of gaining capital from it.

    The only way renationalisation would help is that the trains would become so bloody awful that the proletariat would desert them in droves leaving all the more space for the Dear Leader.

    Dear Mr Corbyn; trains get full. It happens every day. It inconveniences people every day. Shit happens, and all that. Deal with it.

    Heaven forfend that he ever gets the keys to No 10...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Stop whining...

      I wouldn't want to be the guy who scoured the logs to see if Mr Corbyn, or unnamed assistant, tried to reserve a ticket, no doubt the records will show how many seats were sold and reserved and the size of the train.

    2. Adrian 4 Silver badge

      Re: Stop whining...

      That's his point, isn't it ?

      He didn't find himself on an unaccountably crowded train. He went on the train witrh the intention of making a point that they're often overcrowded and underinvested. Yes, should have tried Southern (or Thameslink which they're busily degrading too .. no late trains on a saturday night !) . But booking doesn't make spaces - it just allows you to sneer at the other passengers. Something Corbyn is less likely to do.

      Who remembers Osborne's (I know .. who he?) train journey ?

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20008342

    3. Mark Dempster

      Re: Stop whining...

      He reserved a seat on the previous train, but missed it becasue he was talking to the public

      1. IsJustabloke
        Stop

        Re: Stop whining...

        "He reserved a seat on the previous train, but missed it"

        That doesn't make him look any better.... not only did he book a seat that he didn't then use but effectively denied its use to someone else and having missed the train he reserved he then compounds his error by making a song and a dance about not being able to sit down on a train he hadn't booked to be on.

        Nope, I'm afraid anyway you cut it , he doesn't come out of this looking anything other than a cock.

    4. Perpetual Cyclist

      Re: Stop whining...

      I cannot see why the ability to reserve a seat is any left-off for trains being full (In general, leaving aside this individual train). It simply means people who reserve a seat guarantee that they get to sit down, whilst people who need to travel at short notice (or do not have internet access or competence) are guaranteed to have to stand when the train is full. A lot of the least able in society (through age or infirmity or poverty) are disadvantaged by the system. Also, the infirm and encumbered find it difficult to walk the length of a train looking for the one free seat amongst the scrum of passengers settling in in the narrow isle, and constantly asking an mp3-encased youth if a baggage strewn seat is available can be an intimidating process.

      Trains are a lot less civilised than they could be, and load factors are at record high levels.

      1. pakman

        Re: Stop whining...

        "It simply means people who reserve a seat guarantee that they get to sit down,"

        Er, no it doesn't. When trains get very full, the reservation system sometimes breaks down and people start to ignore it and sit wherever they want. What do you do if you find someone else sitting in the seat that you have booked? Some passengers will move if asked (maybe with some grumbling), others get bolshie and confrontational. "Oh, is this seat reserved, there isn't a ticket in the back of the seat, maybe it fell out and that's it on the floor over there, but it wasn't here when I got here so its not my problem and I'm sat down now so I'm not moving and what are you going to do about it?" Good luck with getting any help from the staff with sorting the situation out when this happens.

        They do it better in Europe, with electronic signage over the seats that the more selfish passengers can't tamper with.

        1. thondwe

          Re: Stop whining...

          I've seen the reserved electronics on some trains in the UK too now. But clearly saying they are all reserved/had bags on is just mischief as is pointed out the reservations will be for part journeys, and EVERYONE puts bags on the seat next to them to discourage some other passenger sitting next to you!

          Maybe Corbin should just talk to people?

        2. Wilseus

          Re: Stop whining...

          "They do it better in Europe, with electronic signage over the seats that the more selfish passengers can't tamper with."

          I'm puzzled by this because I'm sure that Virgin Pendolino trains do have such electronic signs instead of the little cards. Are the Voyagers different?

        3. Pedigree-Pete

          Re: Stop whining...

          Not a commuter as such but I regularly used to travel in and out of Paddington @ peak. Coming home there were usually seats reserved from places beyond my stop or reserved but not sat in 20 seconds before departure. It didn't always work and god help you if you fancied a beer (coffee) but I usually got seated if I tried. PP

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Stop whining...

      More trains or nationalisation are not the answer

      At highbury, whilst you are boarding the train, the next one is in the tunnel waiting to pull in, yet they are still packed, 30 seconds apart.

      The cause is so many people trying to get to the same place at the same time, limitless trains will not stop the "i need be there at 8.00" anal mentality of employers and employees.

      Flexiible working isnt always the answer, how many people go to the bank during lunch, then complain the bank staff have the ordacity to go to lunch too?

      As 24 hour drinking has proved, you still only have £X to spend, be it at 6pm or 2am.

      What's needed is a rethink of the UK's outdated 9-5 civil service and union ingrained routine, just like people prepared to open hours that suited other working people killed half day wednesday and closed on thursday local english run shops

  4. getHandle

    Bah

    Wake me up when the next article about the cockwombles who staff and manage Southern comes along. It'll probably be sooner than my next train!

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Re: Bah

      "...cockwombles ..."

      You owe me a new keyboard!

  5. Martin 47

    Of course the seats had bags and coats on them, how else were Corbyn and his team going to find somewhere to sit when they had finished filming?

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      As a friend of mine used to say

      <geordie>

      Where I come from, it's bums keep seats, not bags.

      </geordie>

  6. Stuart Halliday

    BBC interviewed a woman where she stated that unlike what the CCTV seemed to imply, there were no vacant seats. Sounds like the author is a tad biased?

    1. DavCrav Silver badge

      "BBC interviewed a woman where she stated that unlike what the CCTV seemed to imply, there were no vacant seats. Sounds like the author is a tad biased?"

      Woman on BBC who swears it really really happened vs CCTV footage. Hmm, which can we believe?

      It's like when black guys are shot in the US when "reaching for a gun", and the CCTV footage "seems to imply" they did nothing of the sort.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        From seeing the CCTV footage, I suggest the woman was typical of many travellers I've seen over the decades (thankfully!) and simply saw seats with reservation cards and assumed they were taken; when a simple examination of the details on the reservation card would show that either the reservation was for an earlier part of the train's journey or more typically on the long distance Euston trains the reservation is for a later part of the journey.

        Because of people like these I've often been able to get a seat when others are standing.

        As for the train being rammed, well in my experience the train isn't rammed unless it leaves Euston as crowded as a rush-hour tube train which only starts to thin at Milton Keynes...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        It's like when black guys are shot in the US when "reaching for a gun", and the CCTV footage "seems to imply" they did nothing of the sort.

        In defense of the cops: cops, possibly already a bit nervous, because, you know ... multicultural neighborhood and availability of guns and all that ... have about half a second to decide whether "reaching for a gun" is taking place.

        Here one has a few minutes to decide whether "no vacant seats" is taking place.

      3. Mark Dempster

        It was made clear at the time that there were spaces in 1st class - but Corbyn chose not to upgrade (because most people can't afford to, and the taxpayer is paying for it).

        There were clearly no seats available, despite Virgin's claims, because Corbyn joined several other people already sitting on the floor.

        45 minutes into the journey a family did get an upgrade to 1st class, enabling Corbyn to take one of their seats.

        All of this is easily verifiable, as other commuters have corroborated it. It also tallies with what Corbyn said at the time.

        The dodgy part comes when you watch the video footage that Virgin released. Look closely at things like camera number, carriage ID, time, etc & you'll see that the footage has not been presented in the right order or from the relevant times in all cases. Put simply, it's faked.

        1. VulcanV5
          FAIL

          Could you post this for a fourth time?

          I never thought I'd feel sorry for Corbyn but having seen your repeated efforts on here to assist him, I now do. Given his propensity for self-inflicted disasters -- like the blatant deletion of every reference he ever made to the EU from his online blog, as well as his inconveniently still extant televised condemnation of the EU during his September 2015 leadership campaign -- the man clearly needs as many professional advisers as can be hired from all the three quids forked out by Labour Party visiting tourists. The inept bunch who arranged his Rammed Train -- "rammed" though: good God, they can't even speak English -- expose clearly aren't professionals and as for you and your idea that innocence gathers Momentum via the repetition of the same denial, well . . .

          Go on then. Post the same thing for the fourth time, will you? Just in case we didn't get your propaganda piece the first time around.

        2. DavCrav Silver badge

          "It was made clear at the time that there were spaces in 1st class - but Corbyn chose not to upgrade (because most people can't afford to, and the taxpayer is paying for it)."

          The taxpayer had better have not been paying for it, which he did I think imply at some point. This was a Labour Party hustings and not government business, so if he claimed it off the taxpayer he should be up in front of the beak.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        FTFY

        It's like when black guys are shot in the US when "reaching for a gun", and the CCTV footage "proves beyond doubt" they did exactley that.

        Dont think this BLM is two sided as they are notoriously quiet when blacks (persons of colour or whatver PC moniker fits) shoot other blacks. Or whites. You wont see BLM protesting then.

        1. DavCrav Silver badge

          Re: FTFY

          "Dont think this BLM is two sided as they are notoriously quiet when blacks (persons of colour or whatver PC moniker fits) shoot other blacks. Or whites. You wont see BLM protesting then."

          What exactly would they be protesting against though? You cannot reasonably protest against the existence of Steve, who shot someone. And generally if Steve shoots someone (and he is caught) there's one of these trial things that the West seems to love to have when crimes are committed. I think one reason BLM protests is not because cops shoot innocent people, it's that cops shoot innocent people and then nothing happens.

    2. The Axe

      Woman interviewed by BBC was not a member of the public, she was a member of Corbyn's team. #BiasedBBC.

    3. nijam

      > Sounds like the author is a tad biased?

      Sounds like the BBC is a tad biased?

  7. Chris G Silver badge

    I just find it extremely difficult to believe a leader of a parliamentry party would lie to the public.

  8. Nathan 13

    A politician lied, OMG this is a world 224443355643st

    1. Captain DaFt

      I think you mean: 1.0224443355643st?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        1^x = 1

        Apologies, pedantry

  9. Marketing Hack Silver badge
    WTF?

    OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

    Hey, if Britain wants to nationalize their passenger service, knock yourselves out. But how is that going to help the problem with crowded/late/dirty trains? Is there some evidence that the current private ownership is underinvesting to maximize return on capital?

    And if the lines are nationalized, how is Labor going to assure that neither A) prices are set too low, and the general government fund has to subsidize rail travel to pay for needed maintenance and investment that keeps trains moving or B) the prices are set too high, and rail service turns into a cash cow that Labor uses to fund its pet projects elsewhere?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

      "Is there some evidence that the current private ownership is underinvesting to maximize return on capital?"

      As a U.S. citizen I can't comment on the U.K. train system, but yes that basically describes the state of the train system on our side of the pond. In our case it's the government pulling back subsidies for companies like Amtrak, as a way of covering for massive tax breaks that we give to automobile and fossil fuel companies. The end result has been a lot of derailments and fatalities.

      Nationalized rail is not a fix in itself, that much is true. But don't put the burden of proof on Corbyn to have all the answers for how he would specifically run it, there are plenty of experts already working in the train companies that could figure it out for themselves. Corbyn's job is to just get the legislation passed, that's why he's a MP and not an engineer.

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

        Corbyn's job is to just get the legislation passed, that's why he's a MP and not an engineer.

        Not the same at all.

        An engineer has to go up against reality.

        An MP has to go up against the public and his peers using manufactured reality.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

        Sadly we got rid of most of our experts in building the railways and building tracks and trains in the 90's and hired a bunch of bean counters instead.

        Of course then it all went fucking wrong and we had to semi-renationalise in the 2000's when the tracks and trains were fucked and people were dying. So we hired even more bean counters and outsourced what little engineering expertise we now have, often from more experienced foreign countries who hadn't downsized engineers.

        Sadly the bean counters are still in charge at higher level, quids in I suppose.

    2. AndrueC Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

      Hey, if Britain wants to nationalize their passenger service, knock yourselves out. But how is that going to help the problem with crowded/late/dirty trains?

      Actually it might. There is a curious correlation between passenger numbers and ownership. One could conclude from that graph that if they are re-nationalised passenger numbers will fall and the problem of overcrowding will go away :)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

        Remember that the nationalised East Coast company was the most efficient, and cheapest for the tax payer, of all of the rail franchises over the last few years. This after the previous private franchisee walked away two years into their contract (maximising their nett income) saying they couldn't make it pay. Hence the rush to privatise this bad example before too many comparison were drawn.

        1. LesB

          Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

          That was actually the *two* previous franchisees who both walked away being unable to pay the ludicrous sums they'd bid.

    3. SImon Hobson Silver badge

      Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

      And if the lines are nationalized, how is Labor going to assure that neither ...

      What would happen is like in the past (under all colours of government), they'd use it as a cash cow, suck all the money out and do no investment or maintenance. For a few years it would work, because there's been so much work done since the end of the last nationalised period - so it would be a while before it started to show.

      Then after a few years it would start to show, and people would realise that we were back to the bad old days. It's notable that when you see people on the news complaining about the state of the railways and calling for nationalisation - they are typically relatively young, ie too young to remember what it used to be like !

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

        British Rail was indeed in a pretty chaotic state before privatisation. Of course it also cost us far less than the current arrangement (where us refers to the taxpayer, not the passenger), but I'm sure that is just a coincidence.

    4. Contrex

      Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

      Spelling lessons:

      1. Nationalise

      2. Labour (it's a proper name)

      1. Marketing Hack Silver badge

        Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

        @ Contrex

        I'm American, so it's nationalize and Labor.

        1. Trixr Bronze badge

          Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

          You can "nationalize" what you like, but the name of the party is the Labour Party. Just as it's the "Labor Party" in Australia, a country that uses Commonwealth English spelling, but the party founder was a Yank.

          1. AndrueC Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

            You can "nationalize" what you like, but the name of the party is the Labour Party

            Like I used to say to my French teacher at school.

            Je m'apelle Andrew, pas André.

            :)

        2. Steven Jones

          Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

          You can have renationalize as that's a verb and by all means spell it according to local standards. However, The Labour Party is the registered name of the political party and really ought to be spelt that way.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

          @ Marketing Hack

          No, it isn't.

          Despite your nations predilection for adding "ize" on to the end of every word or substituting a "z" for an "s", your spoken language is English. No some fucked up bastardised version because you cant be arsed to use it properly.

      2. Carl W

        Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

        OED prefers endings in -ize apart from the exceptions listed here http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/ize-ise-or-yse

    5. Mark Dempster

      Re: OK Jeremy--renationalization--what then?

      Plenty of evidence, actually, yes. As will always be the case with a private company whose reisone d'etre is to return profit to its shareholders.

      Evidence that nationalisation will work can be found in the privatised railways that failed & had to be temprarily renationalised before being sold off again - performance & satisfaction went up, and much more money was returned to the treasury. It's a win/win.

  10. IT Hack

    Don't Lie.

    "from brick-chucking Corbynistas"

    I hope you have proof of this, because no one else has. In fact her office was never touched. Her office located in a communal building, with the damaged window also in the communal area. Pretty much signs of a ordinary attempted burglary.

    As a bonus, Angel Eagles office windows were festooned with Labour posters. None of which were damaged.

    Please retract your comment about brick chucking Corbynistas.

    And no. I am not a Labour Part member. Just a citizen sick of bullshit media, lazy and quite ignorant journalists and of course of not having an effective opposition against the Torys. You know...that difficult thing called democracy.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    BEARDGATE!

    wonder if Branson has to stand up on his commute into work?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: BEARDGATE!

      Well its actually Stagecoach that own & run "Virgin East Coast Trains" or whatever it is called - which may not be totally unrelated to the series of fare increases over the last few months. AFAIK Mr Branson has done a DonaldT and sold the use of the Virgin name to Stagecoach in return for a small share of the company.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: BEARDGATE!

        Branson's modus operandi is to licence the brand to a 'capable'* company that does the work.

        *I don't mean capable as in effective, efficient, well-liked etc just that they can do the thing. Branson's skills were running music and music store. Everything else has been largely the work of established entities in the field. Virgin Atlantic was started as British Atlantic by an exLaker pilot and is now half owned by Delta.

      2. Nick Kew Silver badge

        Re: BEARDGATE!

        Isn't it actually a joint venture, with Stagecoach as lead partner and majority owner?

        As a very small stagecoach shareholder, I don't think I'll lose sleep over this. Strikes are (potentially) more of an issue if that situation were to escalate.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Outside of London (yes it does exist !), trains are often ex BR rolling stock just painted different colours and with as many seats as possible wedged in. In what way has privatisation helped anyone other than the shareholders ? For the loons that think everything privatised is 'wonderful' I would respectfully suggest you remember Railtrack. They decided to sack engineers and replace them with managers from pub chains. The result was a poor maintenance record that ended up with train crashes and they had to be put back in the public sector.

    1. Patrician

      "For the loons that think everything nationalised is 'wonderful' I would respectfully suggest you remember British Railways"

      FIFY

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    From the article:

    "the plot got even more scandalously thick when, as Barrister Matthew Scott spotted, it seems that the release of the CCTV footage by Virgin Trains appeared to be in direct contravention of its own privacy policy."

    Er, well I think when a senior politician starts using spouting off in public for reasons of personal gain about the conditions he's experienced on a train ride but is perhaps being "selective" whilst doing so, there's definitely a public interest defence in showing what really happened. Civilised society cannot afford to have a situation where politicians can make up stuff to the public detriment of an identifiable company or individual whilst hiding behind law that otherwise prevents the wronged company or individual publicly refuting the politician's claims.

    If he wanted to be portrayed truly experiencing the woeful inadequacy of over crowded trains he should have pulled his finger out and got on a Southern service during their strikes, instead of lazily making something seemingly unreal up on the hoof during a pre-planned journey. And if he had any expectations in this day and age of CCTV, mobile phones, social media, etc. of being able to fake something (as seems likely) without risking discovery, then he's clearly got a lot of catching up to do on the way the modern world works in order to stand any chance of being portrayed as anything resembling an electable politician.

    1. IT Hack

      A/C rant "From the article"

      Its more like a billionaire train operator smears politician over claims of rail passengers not being well served and that a return to a nationalised rail service is better than what we have at the moment.

      That is why the use of the CCTV footage is regulated. Or are you suggesting that the billionaire rail operator has the best interests of the public at heart?

      I must ask. Are you that naive?

      I would also like to draw attention to the other recent railways issue, the awarding of the East Anglian service to Abellio. Abellio is foreign arm of the Dutch National Railway. Which begs ever so many questions...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A/C rant "From the article"

        Actually i's a pretty classy way for Virgin Trails to deal with this. If they are confident enough to release the footage, (breaking their own cctv policy, and probably opening them to civil action by Corbyn) then they must know that the rest that they have would have been good enough to sue for libel (and it would have come out anyway then). Considering how damaging that would have been for both parties setting up a catch 42 is the only logical solution.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A/C rant "From the article"

        @IT Hack,

        "Its more like a billionaire train operator smears politician over claims of rail passengers not being well served and that a return to a nationalised rail service is better than what we have at the moment.

        That is why the use of the CCTV footage is regulated. Or are you suggesting that the billionaire rail operator has the best interests of the public at heart?"

        Er, so you're saying that it's OK for a politician to (seemingly) make something up to smear a billionaire train operator in order to further his own personal agenda for his own personal gain, and for the train operator to have no opportunity to refute such smears?

        Lets try that out on a smaller scale. Corbyn says something libellous and damaging about you, Mr. I.T. Hack, simply because he can and its to his public advantage. You gonna just sit there and take it?

        Thought not.

        "I must ask. Are you that naive?"

        No, but if you think that politicians (the least respected profession in the world), especially ones like Corbyn, have anything but their own interests at heart then you're seriously deluded. Corbyn is simply the worst and laziest at it, not even bothering to get on an actually crowded train to illustrate his dubious point.

        1. IT Hack

          Re: A/C rant "From the article"

          @ IT Hack

          See this is the thing...you don't even know if Corbyn 'smeared' Branson. Why else put a proviso in your comment. Rather blows your argument out of the water doesn't it? Of course if there is evidence of Corbyn smearing Branson lets see it. Oh...there isn't. All Corbyn said, and quite rightly, is that the privatised rail services are a complete shambles and why is it we are warding contracts to other nationalised state companies?

          As for the rest of your post....excellent comedy material.

  14. Paul Shirley

    damn, they're spilling travel secrets

    My wife and I rely on the high number of unclaimed reserved seats, seats reservations that end before or start after your journey and the timidity of many travellers to claim them. Now everyone's been tipped off! I see travel annoyance in my future.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: damn, they're spilling travel secrets

      Good point. From now everyone should ignore seat reservations until someone produces their tickets and the guard asks them to leave. Clearly according to Virgin you should be expected to sit in them at the start of your journey as Corbyn was only a few minutes into his.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: damn, they're spilling travel secrets

        Well I don't agree with taking advantage of people's timidity when claiming seats, but the fact that the leader of the Labour party apparently doesn't know how seat reservations work on trains is rather disconcerting.

        Also the claim that the groups of what appear to be empty seats on the CCTV footage were full of bags and children is... disconcerting too.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: damn, they're spilling travel secrets

          fact that the leader of the Labour party apparently doesn't know how seat reservations work on trains is rather disconcerting.

          Of course he knows and his supporting staff that arrange his travel know.

          But that doesn't help him when he is travelling with TV cameras and needing to create a stunt to try and score a political point.

        2. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
          Stop

          Re: damn, they're spilling travel secrets

          the fact that the leader of the Labour party apparently doesn't know how seat reservations work on trains is rather disconcerting

          How many people know how seat reservations work entirely, what bylaws and penalties may apply when occupying a reserved seat when not the person who reserved it?

          I would imagine only a few know the entire rules and I don't see why Corbyn would or should be more knowledgeable than anyone else as most times he probably has a reserved seat, takes it, end of.

          If seat reservations are no longer valid, because the person reserving them hasn't taken up their seat, then perhaps train staff could remove those reservation slips so it is clear the seat is available to passengers who don't know the rules and don't wish to commit some offence.

      2. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: damn, they're spilling travel secrets

        From now everyone should ignore seat reservations until someone produces their tickets

        It's been my basic modus operandi, for decades sit in a seat until someone comes along and claims it, although being English, I'm polite and so simply apologise and move on to the next reserved seat...

        The system works because many people who reserve seats don't actually turn up because they've taken a different train....

      3. Paul Shirley

        Re: damn, they're spilling travel secrets

        Better clarify, by timid I mean people that won't bother checking if a seat reservation is currently active or won't assume an empty reserved seat is empty because it's owner isn't on the train. It was not a suggestion to frighten people from grabbing their reservations!

        If there's no one in a reserved seat 5min after its left the starting station, it's very unlikely the owner's coming for it. Yet those seats go empty a lot of the time.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    No one has mentioned the extra footage of the packed train:

    https://cdn.theguardian.tv/webM/2016/08/23/160823Corbynextrafootage_WebM.webm

    Sauce:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-virgin-trains-disputes-claim-over-lack-of-seats

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: extra footage of 'packed' train.

      Insufficient footage on which to base claim or to judge whether train was or wasn't packed, only that in the one carriage Jemery is shown to be walking through most of the seats had reservation cards and were occupied. The opening sequence seems to show a lady pushing a refreshments trolley through the carriage without any real evidence of having to squeeze past people.

      Given it would seem that Jeremy and his colleagues had a reservation on a different train and chose (for whatever reason) not to use it, I would have thought they were grateful that they were able to get on this train without reservations; or should the railways adopt the same system as the airlines: reservations only and tickets only valid on specific services?

  16. Croc O'Dial

    Wottaknob.

    The funny thing is that the Labour Party deserve him. He is a wanker of the highest calibre.

    1. Dr?

      Re: Wottaknob.

      Wankers and pig fuckers. The political choices we must make in 2016

      1. Steve Foster
        Trollface

        @Dr?

        Are you sure the pigs had lowered their standards that far?

        And, besides, hasn't CMD[1] gone now?

        [1] "Call Me Dave" for those who've managed to forget already.

  17. SImon Hobson Silver badge

    Even if, for a moment we suspend reason and accept that everything Corbyn said is true, if he thinks that is "ram packed" then he really is a stranger to rail travel on popular routes. He could sit on the floor, he could walk around, that really isn't ram packed !

    Ram packed is when you daren't drop anything as there's not enough room to bend down to pick it up.

    As for nationalisation, I can remember what things were like under BR - I'll take Virgin or Trans-Pennine any day over that thank you.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I also remember BR, not least because of the frequency with which I get to relive the experience nowadays.

    2. Paul Shirley

      I remember BR staff trying very hard to get you to the destination whatever it took when things went wrong. I also vividly remember the first post privatisation problem trip where none of them could promise to get me further than the next companies section of my trip. We now have at least 1 less train to choose because it's not safe to rely on the last one, too much chance of being stranded without help.

    3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      I can remember what things were like under BR

      Yes, but to be fair: after Beeching — the dear man saw no future for rail in the country — British Rail was deliberately hollowed out and there was virtually no investment in track or rolling stock for over 30 years. The APT was supposed to usher in a new era but was quickly abandoned by the Thatcher government.

      Public spending on the railways increased massively with privatisation which included generous subsidies to franchise operators. The real risky bit (tracks and signals) did get re-nationalised after the sort of incident that requires crown immunity.

      The problem with the current setup is not really one of nationalised or privatised but the way the franchises are awarded as the fiasco with Southern Rail shows. As usual, the British system seems to invite corner cutting and under investment. Countries like Sweden and Switzerland show that things can be done differently. And here in Germany, the local PTEs are only to happy to take on the nationalised incumbent which seems to hate running local commuter services. Though I suspect it'll be a cold day in hell before I get into one of the National Express run services.

  18. Contrex

    I don't give a flying f**k whether Jeremy made it up about the availability of train seating. I wouldn't care much if I heard stories that he eats kittens alive. I am a Labour Party member and I am going to vote for him, because I believe he is the best person to lead the party.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      ... into oblivion and Britain into Brexit disaster.

    2. veti Silver badge

      So is that belief based on - anything, or is it just something you feel very strongly, like appendicitis?

    3. werdsmith Silver badge

      I am a Labour Party member and I am going to vote for him, because I believe he is the best person to lead the party.

      And that is going to be a problem for Labour. Because members and normal human voters are not aligned. Labour need to listen to their MPs who need votes from everybody, not members who suffer from deluded idealism and whose votes are assured anyway.

    4. ZiggyZiggy
      FAIL

      Lemmings comes to mind....

    5. Charlie Clark Silver badge
      Stop

      There's a big difference between sticking by your principles and leading a party.

      Britain is a parliamentary democracy and Corbyn has one of, if not the worst, voting record of his party. He has even voted against party policy since he became leader. How can someone like this ever expect to command the loyalty of other MPs and thus form a government?

      If you really want him to lead the party then you should be careful what you wish for.

      If, as seems likely, he is re-elected as party leader then it will be champagne over at Conservative Central Office. An early election via a constructive vote of no confidence followed by a Tory landslide is likely to the result. Not only would this give the Tories the majority they currently don't have to repeal the European Communities Act, but it will also let them really get on with dismantling the health service and what's left of the welfare state. Oh, and any thing like the BBC that refuses to toe the government line. I bet Murdoch et al. can't wait for Corbyn to be re-elected.

      Until the UK's electoral system is reformed there needs to be a binary choice for the non-partisan electorate. Corbyn and his Militant throwbacks are simply not viable for any of us who remember the lost decade of the 1980s. Much as we might have admired Michael Foot's ideas (he was so much more than Jezza could ever aspire to be) his complete failure to deal with the Militant Tendency is what gave Maggie three landslide elections.

  19. .stu

    If there were empty seats in coach H, why then did Virgin staff need to move another family to First Class in order to make room for him?

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Probably didn't happen.

      The claim that a family moved has only been made by Corbyn's aides, with nothing to back it up.

      So far the only entities claiming that there weren't any seats are Corbyn and his aides.

      And the (only?) reason it matters because his entire schtick is honesty - without that he's nothing.

      Which is of course why this was a bloody stupid stunt and he should damn well have known better - do it on a Southern train for example.

    2. werdsmith Silver badge

      The family probably objected to having Corbyn near them and were moved to first class as compensation.

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: family moved to First Class

      Well this is a very interesting point; as it can be proved by the family coming forward.

      However, it doesn't make sense, because why move a family when you could get a bunch of obviously well heeled individuals obviously travelling on expenses to pay to be upgraded to First Class?

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Dutch Trainsh

    Anyone saying nationalisation of the trains will not work needs to take a trip to Holland ( if you can still get a visa ) and travel 100s of kilometres ( about 60s of miles, less commision ) for what it would cost you to go from Luton to Luton Airport Parkway ( even factoring in the now-shit pound ).

    Corbyn is still a dirty Brexit traitor, though >:-(

  21. JackHassle
    Stop

    I did wonder where they stand releasing the footage as it must surely be filmed for the purpose of crime prevention and not making political points. I also don't get the point of them refuting Corbyn's claims, whether he lied or not. Even if that train wasn't 'rammed', we all know that trains do get 'rammed' and you struggle to find a seat, I know I've been on trains like that and I'm sure most have, and they've also said they're getting new trains to increase the seating capacity in 2018, which must be an admission that there isn't enough capacity.

    It seems to me this isn't an exercise in clearing their name but in making a political point of their own.

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Because he's damaging their specific business by claiming something that's not true.

      A couple of other franchises are, to put it mildly, unacceptably terrible, but Virgin are very good - considerably better than BR ever was - as they've actually invested rather a lot in things like rolling stock and the like.

      On top of that, he did it to claim that their business should not exist at all.

      Would you let it lie if any politician said "JackHassle'so business is terrible and the Government should throw them out and take it over"?

    2. nijam

      > ...must surely be filmed for the purpose of crime prevention...

      For example, "refuting Corbyn's claims", as you put it.

      1. JackHassle

        No, come prevention and refuting a claim aren't the same thing unless Corbyn committed some kind of crime in making his claim. If he did, then the footage should be submitted to the relevant authorities. Not to the BBC.

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          This would be a civil case, not criminal.

          As it's potentially libel or slander. I forget the exact definition.

          By publishing, they remove the need for a civil case, so it is crime prevention.

          Or at least it can be argued such, which is good enough for the ICO.

          Aside from that there is a clear public interest in publishing information that allows the public to check what politicians are lying about each day.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Corbyn & co must work really fast

    I mean, in order to have set up the reserved tickets in all those seats they must be capable of faster than light travel, given that the footage apparently didn't capture them being put in place. Here in the US we'd be happy to have a leader who could pull that off. I mean, anyone capable of moving at superluminal speed must also be able to think really fast. Been a long time since my country could say that about any of our leaders.

  23. muddysteve

    Reservations

    Just to add to what a number of people have said. It is surprising how many reserved seats remain unclaimed at the end of a journey. I would have no qualms about using an empty reserved seat. If you don't want to be moved, pick one where the "from" station has been passed, and the passenger has not turned up.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      At least he is optimistic

      My experience is that you get on the train and see empty seats in the first carriage. You think 'Hey, this is good!' but notice that the empty ones have a) got a reserved note on them, b) are next to someone busy munching nachos with a stack of Stella cans on their lap or c) have accidentally left their coat/case/rucksack on the empty seat to discourage case b).

      So you continue walking up the train optimistically expecting sunlit plains of empty seats, maybe even a table in the quiet carriage. Unfortunately it inevitably turns out that the fist carriage you entered was the only one with seats, and by now the aisles are full of backpackers with massive rucksacks and jaded commuters who have perfected the laser powered gorgon stare and retracing your steps is impossible and probably pointless anyway because the seats are gone. So you spot a nice corner and sit down and make a ranty film (or read a book)

      Aren't we lucky that clear evidence of the whole affair, from the first person boarding the train, to the actions of the train crew, are available, though curiously I bet they cite Data Protection if anyone asks to see it.

      (And I think JC is a useless idealist who needs to step aside and give us a hope of an effective opposition, but that's not the point).

  24. Banksy

    Unreserved

    Where are the unreserved seats that Virgin are talking about? In the photo they released all of the seats seem to have reservation tickets. Granted the train certainly isn't rammed.

    Not a Corbynista by the way, I'd never vote Labour.

    #dicksoutforharambe

    1. Banksy

      Re: Unreserved

      To answer my own question there is some CCTV footage of him walking past about 20 seats next to the food car that were not reserved. BBC News just showed it. It wasn't that clear to me from yesterday's coverage.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I also am

    old enough to remember commuting under BR before privatisation. It was generally terrible - I could have been filmed travelling in the guards van due to the unavailability of seats more times than I can count. In rolling stock that had starred in various Ealing comedies. Some things were better - trains generally had more carriages, for example, but a lot were worse. Reliability, for one.

    Privatisation will solve nothing in itself, as any government will under invest in the railway to save money.

    1. graeme leggett

      Re: I also am

      One thing I do remember of the BR days. They would try and hold trains so if you were on connecting trains that were delayed you had a fighting chance of getting on the train. Albeit that you had to rush down one platform, across the bridge and up another platform to leap aboard followed by the door slamming to behind you.

      Of course such practices these days are probably avoided as 1) running is unsafe, and 2) liable to cause a delay - and much passenger irritation- somewhere else

  26. wolfetone Silver badge

    If A Tree Falls In The Woods, And No One Is There To See It, Is It Corbyn's Fault?

    The seats were reserved for other people. So what would have happened if Corbyn sat on the reserved seats - which weren't reserved for him - and someone came on the train? "Corbyn sat in my seat when he hadn't paid for it" etc etc.

    The further issue with this laughable saga is that Virgin Trains released the CCTV images, which are against the rules.

    Finally, Virgin Trains haven't exactly came out and said the whole sitting on the floor thing doesn't happen on their trains. You can see in the video other people sat on the floor and not on seats. So yet again the public is duped in to believing what it's told via the presses of Murdoch & Co?

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: If A Tree Falls In The Woods, And No One Is There To See It, Is It Corbyn's Fault?

      Presumably Corbyn or one of his aides can find a reserved seat which doesn't cover his part of the journey, or use one of the free unreserved seats he walked passed.

      I'm rather against politicians making shit up just because, see the referendum, and if anything can be done to put them in their place so that they are less inclined to lie again in the future then I'm all for it. Note that everyone else in the CCTV footage had their face blurred out.

      It isn't difficult to make the case against privatised trains without lying, just catch a Southern train.

      I will also add that Corbyn is more interested in rooting out unbelievers than actually running an effective opposition. BoJo has decided to disappear over Syria and arms sales. Have we heard a peep out of Labour calling him to account? No, because he's too busy recording videos on trains.

      1. wolfetone Silver badge

        Re: If A Tree Falls In The Woods, And No One Is There To See It, Is It Corbyn's Fault?

        "I'm rather against politicians making shit up just because, see the referendum, and if anything can be done to put them in their place so that they are less inclined to lie again in the future then I'm all for it. Note that everyone else in the CCTV footage had their face blurred out."

        I'm afraid you're wrong, plenty of stills from the CCTV show other peoples faces unblurred. Either that or my eyes are exceptionally strong today. And if the seat is reserved, and there isn't an unreserved seat - barring spending more money on a 1st class seat at the expense of the tax payer - is he still lying because he choses to sit on the floor rather than go 1st class? It happens daily, and the genuine issue of people sitting on packed trains is being overshaddowed by a company with a lot to lose if a Corbyn government ever came to power.

        "I will also add that Corbyn is more interested in rooting out unbelievers than actually running an effective opposition. BoJo has decided to disappear over Syria and arms sales. Have we heard a peep out of Labour calling him to account? No, because he's too busy recording videos on trains."

        Again, wrong, with all the infighting caused by the anti-Corbyn brigade they don't have time, nor do the media afford them time, to call Johnson out on the many things he's done or hasn't done.

  27. John Miles 1

    Grow up

    There are a certainly genuine issues with train services ( I commute to work in busy trains and am very aware of them) - but it needs a more mature and researched effort to address them rather than a silly set-up video. When will we have politicians willing to do real work on this rather than going for sound-bites and video clips.

    Or perhaps he doesn't use long distance trains very much. Those of us who do normally reserve a seat ( and try to save money by pre-booking). Even if one hasn't reserved a quick look at the reservation tickets finds somewhere to sit for part of the journey.

  28. Kay Burley ate my hamster

    Reserved?

    I'll be ignoring those Reserved ticket things from now on then...

  29. <shakes head>

    if he had a researved seat and missed his train he didnot have a valid ticket

    unless he bought a new on for travel on the day which would have been more expensive than an advance 1st class

    1. Maldax
      Happy

      Re: if he had a researved seat and missed his train he didnot have a valid ticket

      I think you are confusing trains with planes. Train tickets don't have times on you get a separate ticket for your seat reservation. Your ticket is still valid for travel

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: if he had a researved seat and missed his train he didnot have a valid ticket

        This depends on the type of ticket. there are so many that it's sometinmes confusing.

        To save public money I select fixed tickets which are nearly always the cheapest, and are valid for that train only

      2. fwadman

        Re: if he had a researved seat and missed his train he didnot have a valid ticket

        Not always. The cheapest advance tickets are typically for an extra train. Miss the train and you need to pay extra to upgrade your ticket to go on any train (at least that's the theory).

        The couple of times this has happened to me I've found the guard and been straight up with him and he's said not to worry about it. As with most things in life - if your nice and polite to people they tend to be good to you in return.

  30. J J Carter Silver badge
    Trollface

    That's the icing on the cake

    Jezbollah a liar and, worse, a champagne socialist by upgrading to 1st!

    1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

      Re: That's the icing on the cake

      Noting the troll icon: Reports elsewhere say Corbyn did not upgrade to 1st class, he declined that offer, took the seats of others who had accepted that upgrade offer. Though other reports suggest 1st class had been 'suspended', was open to all travellers, so it's not clear if there was any 1st class upgrade even available.

      1. wolfetone Silver badge

        Re: That's the icing on the cake

        A journalist attended one of his talks today (which was about the NHS), and decided to make a name for himself by asking this question to him when, really, it wasn't the time or place.

        Anyway, Corbyn went through what happened. He was offered an upgrade to 1st which he declined, and the train manager found an unoccupied seat for him and his wife elsewhere in the carriage. He wanted to sit with his wife, so finding two unreserved seats next to each other wasn't possible.

        1. Mr Commenty McComentface

          Re: That's the icing on the cake

          "... for himself by asking this question to him when, really, it wasn't the time or place."

          Sorry, so what you're saying is that Journos should stick only the approved subjects they are told to ask questions on? If that is the case, then I am so glad you're not in charge, you're as bad as Murdock ffs. How long is it before you start saying Journos should have their questions pre-approved?

          "He wanted to sit with his wife, so finding two unreserved seats next to each other wasn't possible."

          So here we are saying that this wasn't a case of "Corby couldn't get a seat", but actually "Corby couldn't get a group of seats together", sorry, but if you ever use public transport, it should be fairly sodding obvious that if you want a group of seats together, you sodding well book, or live with the various smattering of seats available.

          I don't know who thought up this piece of cock awful propaganda but the fact that that mendacious bastard allowed a poorly presented piece of theatre to go out and THEN is pissed when he gets called on it bewilders the hell out of me. I know, it shouldn't, but it does.

          Oh, and for the record, it should never be ok to take a political swipe at a private entity but deny that entity the right to defend itself, and yes, I know that the Rail Service is fairly shocking in this country, but lying like a weasel to prove a point is NOT ok.

        2. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: That's the icing on the cake

          What we are getting now is the version that the damage limitation experts in the Labour spin department have concocted.

          Which is notably different from the first version that the Corbyn faker / stirrer came up with.

        3. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: That's the icing on the cake

          You mean him and his invisible wife who he hadn't mentioned before couldn't have sat either side of the aisle, in the remote case that there weren't two empty seats next to each other (I say remote because CCTV shows him walking past loads of empty seats)?

          His wife or assorted hangers on couldn't have looked for seats while he recorded his video?

          Perhaps he should stop making up constantly changing excuses that only convince the converted anyway. When in a hole, stop digging.

  31. Valarian

    "Ram-Packed"

    The state of having just lost 4 hours' hard work, typing-in some insanely arcane REM statements full of graphics characters and punctuation, only for a carelessly strong sigh to induce sufficient turbulence in the atmosphere of the room to cause a 1-micron shift in the seating of your 16K memory expansion.

    Thus: "Aaaargh! I've just been ram-packed!".

  32. Jeff 11

    On the CCTV and breach of privacy policy issue...

    ...it's a complete red herring, because no information that Jeremy Corbyn actually provided has been disclosed. His being on a train is a matter of public record, not provided information - he's already 'disclosed' his whereabouts to the media anyway and the released CCTV images do not show anything sensitive beyond that. Virgin has not breached its own policy.

    Whether it has breached ICO guidelines and can be sanctioned is another story, but any such sanctions will likely be very light given that CCTV material is often released into the public domain.

    1. WatAWorld

      Re: On the CCTV and breach of privacy policy issue...

      Jeremy Corbin released the information himself in a lie.

      I'm distressed to see a journalistic publication that I'd formerly respected claiming that there is no public interest in revealing politicians lies.

      I dare say, if this had been a Conservative politician lying this lame excuse of privacy agreements overriding national interest on issues where the individual involved had waived privacy -- it would never be brought up.

      Pure partisanship on the part of the press ignoring standard press reasoning because they want to protect their ideological leader from legitimate debate and exposure as a liar.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge
        Stop

        Re: On the CCTV and breach of privacy policy issue...

        Of course he's released the information himself, he made a video saying where he was.

        Or maybe that was another plane of reality, I lose track with all these differing statements put out by Labour (or whatever this party is now).

  33. Custard Fridge

    Why didn't Virgin ask Corbyn if they could release the video?

    I think the golden nosed 747 caused this to come out now.

    Otherwise Corbyn could have been put on the spot by being asked if Virgin could release the video - he'd have had to say yes, wouldn't he? Perhaps a 'friendly bet' with the money going to charity? Too late now...

  34. ZiggyZiggy

    Based on my experiences as a daily Virgin trains rush hour user, if the train is "ram-packed" you can't walk from one end to the other... whilst I'm not sure I trust Virgin trains to not spin things too, I actually don't have any issue with them sharing the CCTV in this case - I'd say it's in the public interest to expose a lieing scheming politician - oh wait... that's just a standard politician. My mistake.

  35. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Certain tickets are tied to specifc train times.

    If he had reserved a seat on an earlier train and missed it then theres a couple of things to consider:

    - he used 2 seats instead of one. So, in fact, directly contributung to overcrowding by 'wasting' a seat

    - there's a good chance he hadn't got a new ticket for his 'second' journey and is in fact a fare dodger.

    What a total ledge!

  36. Slx

    Meanwhile, an unopposed Tory Government is running the country off the rails entirely.

    Labour needs to get this leadership contest over and done with. If it's Corbyn, they need to get behind him and actually challenge what's going on.

    All I see is naval gazing.

    1. Snapper

      "All I see is naval gazing.

      JEZZA "I see no ships"!

      I think you mean 'NavEl gazing', but then again, I totally agree with you, but it's what most hard lefties do innit? All "take the fight to the tories' stuff, ignoring democratic elections for their own tired little arguments.

    2. WatAWorld

      Is Corbyn another version of Tony Blair or another version of Donald Trump?

      "Meanwhile, an unopposed Tory Government is running the country off the rails entirely"

      You raise a red herring.

      The issue of whether Corbyn has the moral fiber to lead is central to Labour's current lack of leadership.

      Is Corbyn a grandstanding egotistical goof who embrasses ideology to futher personal power?

      Is Corbyn another version of Tony Blair or another version of Donald Trump?

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Is Corbyn another version of Tony Blair or another version of Donald Trump?

        The tories have everything crossed and are praying to the banking CEOs for a Corbyn victory.

        Nothing would suit them more.

  37. MassiveBob
    FAIL

    "ram-packed"??

    It appears that The Right Honourable Gentleman has never been to Tokyo during rush hour?

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    In Corbyn's defence, the other seats were being occupied by ghosts...

  39. Nick Kew Silver badge

    Where's his missus?

    Corbyn was on the wireless this morning 'clarifying' the situation by saying what he actually looked for and couldn't find was two seats together for himself and his missus.

    OK, fairy nuff, though it's more usually youngsters who prioritise keeping a group together over getting seats. But it begs the question: was his wife sitting with him on the floor? His own video should show that. If she's with him, that supports his story, or at least today's version. If not, then he pulled a stunt, and is now in a hole and still digging.

    1. Steven Jones

      Re: Where's his missus?

      So he'd rather they both sat on the floor together rather than sort the position out during the journey?

    2. WatAWorld

      Re: Where's his missus?

      Except that the video shows him passing entire rows of unreserved seats, vacant side-by-side pairs across the aisle from vacant side-by-side pairs, as he gets on the train. That is what was in the first car, before he went to the second car, the one whose photo The Guardian, er The Reg choose to post.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Where's his missus?

        Exactly where is his missus?

        In the JC video she is invisible and in the Virgin video there is also no sign of her or anyone actually sitting in the seat directly next to the one JC is seen occupying...

  40. John70

    He should try the crappy carriages Northern Rail use instead of a luxury Virgin train.

  41. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Typical

    Another liar of a politician.

    He's finally shown his true colors.

  42. John Styles

    Man is born free and is everywhere in trains.

  43. Alistair Silver badge
    Coat

    Hmmm.

    On ElReg, techie news site.

    In bootnotes (where it belogs)

    2 days

    154 comments.

    I'd say trains are a bit of an issue for the right pondians.

    Much of what is written above covers as many permutations of the arguments involved as one might want to consider.

    Over here, I'll note that the public transit operations are finally getting some structural improvements (god knows they need them) but our governments keep spreading out the privatised transport bits. The public transit manages to piss folks off by changing routes and forms, but has to go through two layers of government to up the fares. Private transit operations *really* piss folks off because they raise the fares, but don't announce it until 3 days before hand. And they'll juggle routes at the drop of a hat, frequently only leaving small notes taped to the signs.

    Politicians over here tend to avoid taking about pubic transit because they generally get hit by the bus after the fact.

  44. Steven Jones

    Suspicious video - and the issue of unclaimed, booked seats

    Anybody who has ever been on a "ram packed" (I prefer jam packed) commuter train will know that the original video was rather dubious. On such a commuter train there would simply be no empty floor space to sit upon. Indeed there's often barely enough space to stand.

    The issue of unclaimed booked seats on long distance routes is always a pain though. However, it's always a good idea to look at the details. If the reservation is for a different leg of the journey then it's free until that point. If the leg it applied to started some time ago then its unlikely that it will ever be claimed (and the worst that happens is you are asked to move). Note that removing booking tags can (at least in theory) get you into trouble.

    The fact is that a lot of people who book seats find that they are all crammed into two or three carriages and they fancy a bit of space and go and find some in an carriage without any bookings. As far as I'm aware there's no actual requirement to sit in the seat that was booked for you.

    nb the one place where booking on long distance trains tends to get rigorously applied is on cycle spots. They really are in short supply and, in my experience, there's little flexibility.

  45. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    View from a frequent user

    As a frequent user of VTEC (Virgin Trains East Coast) with and without reserved seats, I often see: empty seats, reserved seats unused, bags on seats and people sitting on the floor when there are seats available. I also see pretty full trains with people standing.

    I'm neither a Corbyn lover or hater, I'm also not a VTEC employee - only a regular (once a week) user.

    I travel between Leeds and Kings-Cross, with and without reservations - I have only once in five years had to stand/sit on the floor for the entire journey - and then this was due to "wires down".

    JC - he's trying to make publicity, and he's been caught out - there were seats, he should get into the habit of asking people to shift bags! FYI I'll happily accept a (free) first class upgrade!!! In actual fact, I've seen a couple of occasions where first class has been "declassified" because the train has been sooo busy - I didn't see this on this occasion! Train staff obviously didn't think the train was that "ram packed".

    VTEC - rightly have shown their service isn't as JC promotes. They could/should free up seats when reservations aren't used, any regular user of their east coast service will see passengers hunting for unused reserved seats as soon as the train pulls out.

    This hasn't been JC's best publicity, VTEC service isn't 100%, but it works. It's basically the same service as previously under Govt control - yet the trains are cleaner, refurbished (on going), new trains are promised, and free WiFi.

    JC - should admit defeat here and take the egg on his face.

    VTEC - get back to running trains efficiently and on-time.

  46. WatAWorld

    Why did The Reg not show the other carriage with the mass of empty unreserved seats?

    The Reg's selected photo shows the second carriage, where most seats were reserved.

    It was the first carriage that had the mass of unreserved seats, including entire rows of seats.

  47. WatAWorld

    Gee a newspaper ignoring industry standard 'public interest' reasoning

    Gee a newspaper complaining about private info being released.

    Isn't the standard reasoning "public interest". You print what is supposed to be confidential because there is an over-riding public interest that overrides standard procedures.

    Without the 'public interest' reasoning every newspaper in the UK, USA and Australia would be blank, because privacy rights extend to everything government does that involves members of the public and government employees.

  48. Dave 15

    To make a point

    Perhaps instead of picking a long distance route he could have picked the trains between 7 and 8 from Cambridge to London... he wouldn't have sat on the floor, there is no space for that...

    If he wanted a real laugh turn up to Stansted and try and get through security on a Friday evening... half the machines unmanned, queues to the turnstiles, an hour or so wait, all penned in with metal barriers and of course no one has yet checked the suitcase or back pack on the person just down from you... heaven knows what it could contain? Hell of a lot easier to kill thousands in their than a few dozen on a plane... and of course the effect on travelling would be just as bad.

    But back to the story. I am no Labour supporter BUT things like public transport, a public mail system, phone, water, gas, electric etc. SHOULD not be a profit making often monopoly activity but a public utility. Certainly they should be efficient but even if they are not they are absorbing people from the dole anyway, so I care somewhat less than you might think about overmanning.

    Just remember when Thatcher privatised these industries how the rates of pay for CEOs etc doubled, tripled, quadrupled or more 'to attract the right people' when the people in post didn't change from those who were last year apparently useless and presiding over useless and inefficient state run companies...

    I am certainly no supporter of the way the rail services are done now, seems to cost in rail fares, overcrowding and subsidy. In Germany they are still building new lines while in the UK we are ripping them up and turning them into concrete guided busways (a bus being like a train on tracks but unable to take as many people and requiring one driver per 50 instead of 1 driver per 1000...

  49. Nathan 13

    This man and his team want to run the country, but they cant even book a simple train ticket. And as for that video, there are no words to describe how terrible an idea it was.

    Labour need to sort themselves out, because although I'm a Tory voter, this country does need a strong and credible opposition badly.

    Corbyn, and the Labour Party are a pathetic joke at the moment.

  50. Hugh Barnard

    It's fair to say that public-owned East Coast mainline was a success, so it 'had to be' re-privatised because of neo-liberal magical thinking. Branson has a lot to lose (NHS contracts, train contracts) from any Corbyn style success and digital video can easily be edited.

    I'm not a huge devotee of St. Jeremy, but it's obvious that some of it needs saying/doing, unless, for example you'd like private US style healthcare, be rich or die sickening.

  51. Gary Bickford

    How is this different from rush hour everywhere?

    As a furriner WRT to Virgin Rail, I wonder from afar - rush hour is always going to be packed, regardless of the transport mechanism. In fact there are multiple transport studies that basically say that when you expand capacity in one method or route, soon that capacity will be filled as more people choose that method or route. We've all seen that as well, and we can see historically that when a new highway or rail line goes in, people move to new housing to take advantage.

    The other aspect is purely practical. Rush hour traffic (of whatever kind) may be four to 10 times as busy as the other 22 or 20 hours of the day. Providing infrastructure to handle any arbitrary peak traffic situation can thus cost you four times to 10 times as much as what's required to handle the overall mean traffic demand, which obviously will increase prices unless some magical government agency subsidizes (which is just hiding and time shifting the cost). This is a delicate balance, which every transport agency ever has had to deal with.

    So, bottom line, how much are you willing to pay either in fares or taxes to provide a permanent 'always a seat available' capability?

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2019