back to article Reactive? Serverless? Put to bed? What's next for Java. Speak up, Oracle

The future of Java Enterprise Edition is on many developers' minds. After the community came to the conclusion that the platform’s progress has come to a standstill, a plethora of initiatives has arisen with the goal of encouraging Oracle to pick up the work on Java EE 8 again. It's time to take inventory. The bone of …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Honest question: Does anyone build anything new in EE any more? All the recent Java little-e enterprise development I've seen recently has been in Spring Boot, because it's so much easier to use, and huge swathes of the territory has been eaten up by even more fashionable frameworks like Play.

  2. PassiveSmoking

    If they put as much effort into their own Java as they do into suing over APIs...

    ... we'd have God's own programming language by now.

    1. Oengus Silver badge

      Re: If they put as much effort into their own Java as they do into suing over APIs...

      If they did that you would have code developed by lawyers. What a mess that would be.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: If they put as much effort into their own Java as they do into suing over APIs...

        > If they did that you would have code developed by lawyers. What a mess that would be.

        Sorry about the downvote, but I happen to know two lawyers who are also developers, and both are brilliant coders!

        One of them also talks occasionally about points of law of interest to IT people, and that's very interesting too.

        1. m0rt Silver badge

          Re: If they put as much effort into their own Java as they do into suing over APIs...

          I know a PE teacher who isn't a sadistic bastard.

          But that venn diagram looks virtually like a total eclipse.

    2. ATeal

      Re: If they put as much effort into their own Java as they do into suing over APIs...

      Ah, you're a perl man?

      (There's like 4 different jokes here, in case most of you don't get that, I just want you to know what I did here)

    3. Tchou
      Trollface

      Re: If they put as much effort into their own Java as they do into suing over APIs...

      We already have it, it's called "C"

    4. fajensen Silver badge
      Angel

      Re: If they put as much effort into their own Java as they do into suing over APIs...

      Sure. And letting your typical Java developer loose with constructs with the power to cut and reshape reality according to the will of the wielder of that language, would go ... how well, exactly!?

  3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    What's next for Java?

    Death?

    {because of the way Oracle has behaved since it got ownership}

  4. CharlieM

    Hasn't Java EE been long dead?

    From where I am sitting Java EE has been dead for a long time. The principle of a monolithic spec has lost out to just bringing along the frameworks you need. Maven has made managing that practical. A spec written by committee can't keep up with the vast ecosystem of frameworks and libraries. Which rightly or wrongly, rise and fall in the time it takes them to agree a single draft of the spec.

    The big question now is the Java language dead as well? Oracle has been far too slow to evolve it. Compared to Scala and Kotlin, Java looks archaic. Its the productivity that is killing it. Everything is just far more keystrokes than in Scala or Kotlin. Java 8 was a step in the right direction. Unfortunately that productivity horse seems to have long since bolted.

    The JVM and the vast ecosystem of libraries are worth hanging on to. So I am sure the Java platform will still live on. Oracle just needs to recognise that. After all its the platform that it cares about, not what you write the source in.

    1. Roo
      Windows

      Re: Hasn't Java EE been long dead?

      Nah, it's just having a long nap in the tarpit.

    2. Daniel von Asmuth Bronze badge

      Has Java grown up?

      So far Java seems to be an experiment. Every major version brought new features, keeping prospective users to wait until it would stabilise.

    3. Mookster
      Gimp

      Re: Hasn't Java EE been long dead?

      Anything more that Servlets, has been unnecessary, slow and stupid for many years (what with hibernate et al). Java will be around for a long time yet..

    4. SVV Silver badge

      Re: Hasn't Java EE been long dead?

      It is still very much alive and well in corporate IT land, no matter how many people come on here and pronounce it "dead". Whether you think thiis is a good thing or not is a matter of personal opinion, but wishing it were so don't make it so.

      I cannot understand why you feel there is some sort of tension between the monolithic spec and the huge amount of libraries and framewrks out there. Surely you code with the core spec and use frameworks and libraries on top of this to achieve your objectives. Maven is just as useful for this more common approach..

      Java may look archaic and verbose to you, but at least it's easy to read, unlike much real world Scala code I've seen. Any developer who thinks that productivity is a function of the number of keystrokes needed to initially type the code is pretty naive : have you ever even had to maintain someone else's terse, difficult to read code? Easy Maintenance is always more important than quick typing during initial development.

      I'm glad peple develop new langtuages for the JVM. But I've yet to see one I'd rather write a business application in. I've said before on here that Java is really the new COBOL when it comes to business applications. There are reasons why that ultra verbose language stuck arund so long as well. Readability and easy maintenance being the main ones.

  5. Inachu

    She is pretty!

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Gartner nonsense

    It's a bit poor of the author linking to a report you can't read unless you're a corporate IT-by-magazine manager of paper clips with an account. While I understand many have ambivalent opinions of Gartner I was curious to know their point of view. So basically, "look at this interesting stuff here..." , DENIED , eff off poor person.

    1. m0rt Silver badge

      Re: Gartner nonsense

      "While I understand many have ambivalent opinions of Gartner..."

      I think that most people think Gartner are a blood sucking parasite that only add to the misery of the masses.

      Those that have ambivalent opinions of Gartner I am pretty sure I would be ambivalent about.

      1. Andy E
        Meh

        Re: Gartner nonsense

        There's probably a Gartner report on the types of opinions people have of Gartner. It might help you place yourself in the right quadrant.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Gartner nonsense

          Years ago I was tasked with replacing our itsm suite for all our European operations. The Gartner report available at the time looked a reasonable starting point but the PHBs said nope you will waste 6 months assessing 60+ suites. So I did it and sat through interminable meeting after meeting with the said pointy haired knob ends until finally we had a top 5 vendor list who we wanted to bid. Our top 5 = Gartner top 5.

  7. E 2

    C went years between K&R and ANSI, then years more before C99. And C is one of the most dominant langauges. C++ has a similar history (though of course currently the committee seems to have the attention span of a whippet on crystal meth), and it is one of the most dominant languages.

    Java people - maybe your lang has reach a plateau of refinement? Not, of course, as refined as C or C++, but adequate to not rewrite the spec yet again?

  8. iced.lemonade

    i feel programming in a stable (or, in some others' view, stagnant) programming language and api keeps us productive - at least i don't need to, like the javascript guys sitting around me, constantly learn new ways of solving the same type of problems when the api library makers re-invents itself (angularjs 1 -> 2 comes to mind). some people may argue that java is cumbersome (in terms of lines of code...) but it is static typed and the tools (like Intellij IDEA) already suggests or even fill in much of the codes for you (like generating getters/setters/anonymous classes) and, as a result, i feel i actually type less than when i code in other languages. the only thing i feel oracle should seriously work on is its GC engine, the performance of which i feel lags seriously behind other newer languages (like golang). for the java ee part, well, i think if any company can make an app server that is as user-friendly as glassfish server (the admin console is so easy to use, everything self-explaining) i think more people will flock into the java ee scene - personally, i feel the major roadblock to java app server is that most of them is hard to admin.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Green

    I was at Sun when the Green Project morphed from Set Top Box OS to something more general. I'd say the cycle is now complete. Java has attained 'meh' status at many companies thanks to Oracle.

  10. Ron in MA

    Remember, Oracle is not a technology company

    Oracle is an excellent sales company, that happens to sell hardware and software. A lot of their products were acquired, not created internally, paid for by the profits of that one product they did create, many years ago: the Oracle DB.

    A lot of us hoped that the Sun acquisition would inject a "technical innovation" gene into Larry's baby, and perhaps that has occurred, but Sun's faith in open-source sharing of IP has clearly been rejected. The stewardship of Java clearly takes a back-seat to Oracle's other interests (profits). Instead, control of Java is mainly being used to harm the interests of competitors such as IBM and Red Hat.

    It is time to reform the JCP. Java has grown up, and should be allowed to run its own life. Initiatives like microprofile (which is much more than simply a Red Hat thing, BTW) may well be the future, regardless of the JCP and Oracle.

    Reformation in the Java universe is long overdue, and needed if Java is to evolve to address modern software development needs. Oracle, please go back to what you're best at, namely selling stuff, and trust those who are better at open-source innovation to generate new products and markets for you to buy into later on.

    Free Duke now!

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