back to article Breaking 350 million: What's next for Windows 10?

After 12 months of “free” upgrades, it's now business for usual for Microsoft and the hard work begins on trying to shift paid-for Window 10. Microsoft closed the door on free upgrades from Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 on July 29. The Anniversary Update of Windows 10 arrived on August 2. From now on, if you want to …

  1. Bob Vistakin
    Facepalm

    What's next for Windows 10?

    Ads, ads ads ads and some more ads. Ads on your login screen, Ads on your logout screen. Ads on your ads. Then more ads. Ads on your start menu. Ads in every help screen. Ads on your home page. Then more ads.

    1. RyokuMas Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: What's next for Windows 10?

      So basically being more like Google?

      1. alain williams Silver badge

        Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        So basically being more like Google?

        No. Google pushes ads at you when you ask it a question, it by and large leaves you alone the rest of the time. MS controls your desktop and so can interrupt you whenever it feels that it won't cause you to hit the screen. You can't get away from it.

        OK: watch something long (& popular) on youtube and you will be occasionally interrupted with an ad for something.

        1. WatAWorld

          Re: What's next for Windows 10?

          "No. Google pushes ads at you when you ask it a question, it by and large leaves you alone the rest of the time. MS controls your desktop and so can interrupt you whenever it feels that it won't cause you to hit the screen. "

          1. You're ignoring Chrome, and

          2. You're running an Ad Blocker on Youtube so you don't see the constant inundation of advertising.

          3. AdWords -- that is Google. Google does advertising on maybe 80% of web pages served up.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: What's next for Windows 10?

            Agree, there is a big difference between me searching for suits because I want to buy a suit and Google throwing a few relevant suit ads on top, which is actually helpful or at least not bothersome... and me searching for a file on my OS and Windows 10/Bing asking me if I want to search for something in my file title. That is plenty annoying... not least of which because they are using Bing and not Google. I don't want to search the internet and, if I did, I certainly wouldn't want to do it with Bing.... on the OS that I PAID to use. It is a straight double dip from MSFT. Aside from the inferior tech, that is the annoying part. Yep, we'll be charging for licenses. Yep, we'll also be using this as an ad engine. Yep, our tech, especially search, will be inferior.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What's next for Windows 10?

          Agree... and Google doesn't charge you for software. It is a pretty sweet deal really. Would you rather pay a $120 for this, awesome, software, or would you rather have us show you, generally relevant, ads when you search for stuff? Most will take the ads. If you don't dig it, you can pay them for Google Apps, etc and then there are no ads. They play it pretty straight and don't try to double dip. Give Google some credit for coming up with a business model which is a universal win.

          1. jrwilheim

            Re: What's next for Windows 10?

            Google does not offer an ad-free version of Gmail or Google Apps, which is a major reason I use Outlook and Office web apps.

        3. jrwilheim

          Re: What's next for Windows 10?

          And yet, in a year of using Windows 10, I haven't had an ad pop up at me once.

          1. MarkElmes

            Re: What's next for Windows 10?

            Me neither. Not sure if most of the users commenting here even use Windows 10. I think it's a very good OS, my personal favorite of the big 3 and much better than Windows 8 was.

            I've been using it since day 1, and ran the previews too.

            There are Ad's, but they're never obtrusive and can be turned off.

            -The lock screen can show ads over the login picture, but they're text based, and are only activated with the Spotlight feature that shows a different bing image each day.

            -The start menu will suggest apps to install underneath the Most Used section - it'll only show 1 app and doesn't really get in the way.

            -Edge's new start page will show occasional ads advertising MS products - just change your home page to something else..

            -Cortana uses Bing - until you change your default search engine to Google

            No ad's in any apps, except News/Money/Health - where ad's are expected due to the news sources.

            People love to beat on MSFT, they always have.

      2. P. Lee Silver badge

        Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        >So basically being more like Google?

        Except that Google isn't my OS and only gives me ads when I visit their site. More to the point, Google don't own most of my (Windows) applications so that they can insert adverts.

        Time to work on a new FLOSS application to provide managed presence information.

        1. PickledAardvark

          Re: What's next for Windows 10?

          Except that Google gives me ads when I visit 80% of web sites. Google's ad package is used so widely that its search data about me is used when I read blog posts and newspapers. Microsoft aspire to have the same sort of data about me, perhaps even more.

          BTW, I use a Flash manager but never an ad blocker. I'm one of the old fashioned types who thinks that advertising is a necessary cost of reading worthwhile content. Publishing firms who include "feature articles" from clickbait operations need to understand that they are seriously devaluing their businesses.

          Has anyone written a personal data junk generator? Something that runs invisible-to-me background searches and link followups to innocuous sites about harmless things of which I have no interest? Something that is smart enough to run when internet access doesn't cost me anything?

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: What's next for Windows 10?

            "Except that Google gives me ads when I visit 80% of web sites."

            Given the ready availability of ad-blockers I'd have thought that that must be a matter of your personal choice.

        2. LDS Silver badge

          Re: What's next for Windows 10?

          Google isn't your OS until you use Android or ChromeOS. Using the Chrome browser gives it a deep access to most online activities. Mail and Drive put a lot of your data at its disposal.

          But just intercepting almost every search made in the Western world gives it a lot of data about what people do. And Google tracker is active on mots sites, so it tracks you even if you land there from somewhere else.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @RyokuMas - Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        Nope! Way much worse than Google!

      4. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        I see your Google and raise you Amazon Fire

    2. TitterYeNot

      Re: What's next for Windows 10?

      "Ads, ads ads ads and some more ads. "

      Yes, I wonder how long until it won't be 'μBlock Origin for Chrome', FireFox or Opera etc., it'll just be 'μBlock Origin for Windows'...

      1. PeeKay

        Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        "Yes, I wonder how long until it won't be 'μBlock Origin for Chrome', FireFox or Opera etc., it'll just be 'μBlock Origin for Windows'..."

        I'd rather is was 'μMatrix for Windows'...https://github.com/gorhill/uMatrix

    3. King Jack
      Holmes

      Re: What's next for Windows 10?

      Ads, ads, ads and spam. Get it right.

      1. macjules Silver badge

        Re: Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        Ads, Ads, Spam, Important System Update, Ads, Spam, Important System Update etc. ad nauseam ...

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Its more subtle than Ads & Spam, expect an all out assault on our 'behavioral data':

      https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/02/google-microsoft-pact-antitrust-surveillance-capitalism

    5. WatAWorld

      Re: What's next for Windows 10?

      Either you've drunken the Apple Fanbois CoolAid, you're letting your imagination run wild, or your computer is infected.

      So far there are no ads in Windows 10.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Joke

      @Bob

      "Ads, ads ads ads and some more ads."

      Nah, they'd never do this. We'd get themed ads, which will blend in with the Windows theme you're using and make it a unique experience! That is so much different :)

    7. J J Carter Silver badge

      Re: What's next for Windows 10?

      "Ads, ads ads ads and some more ads. "

      Ironic then that MSFT ship AdBlock for Edge browser.

      Still, lets not let facts get in the way of ranting about MSFT

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Pirate

        Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        "Ironic then that MSFT ship AdBlock for Edge browser."

        no, because their NEXT 'feature' would allow PAID FOR ADS (i.e. pay up or we don't let your ads get through) to slip past it... (yes, that DOES happen with OTHER ad blockers, doesn't it?)

        So not "ironic" - more like sneaky, underhanded, ...

    8. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What's next for Windows 10?

      I don't see how MS can go back to paid versions of Windows 10 after the free period. All of the MSFT fans and people remotely interested took advantage of the free OS upgrade, so the low hanging fruit is gone. The rest of the Windows users, not on 10, are people who are indifferent or negative about the new version of Windows. Those people, clearly not really jazzed about Windows 10 in the first place, are not going to dig MS making them pay when others got it for free. I think they will have to continue to give it away or they are going to see a bunch of Chrome/Android PC defections for a free OS. There is just no margin for Windows in PCs when MS is trying to chase Google into the $200-300 PC space. Difficult for an OEM to create a $300 PC and stay afloat when MS is asking for $199 for Windows.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        >"the MSFT fans and people remotely interested took advantage of the 'free' OS upgrade"

        Eh? I think you might have confused who's taking advantage of whom...

      2. veti Silver badge

        Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        If your business model relies on you being able to sell a fully operational PC for $300...

        ... how is that Microsoft's problem?

        You want to serve the market segment of People With No Money? Good on you, best of luck with that, let us know how it goes. We'll be over here selling PCs for $1000, and we anticipate no shortage of customers at that price point.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What's next for Windows 10?

          "We'll be over here selling PCs for $1000, and we anticipate no shortage of customers at that price point."

          How do you like working for Apple?

      3. joeljoel

        Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        I guess they expect to work with the current user base to convince the other ones it's a worthy transition through their testimonies. The reluctance of the early adopters had to be broken somehow. Their continuous feedback made sure the next customers will get a polished OS. They'll upgrade probably together with a new machine.

        So the low hanging fruit were harvested. The other ones will follow slowly but surely, while the next [very profitable] harvest awaits to be ripened: corporate customers. Those customers usually wait for a couple of years until an OS matures before plunging in. Their time will come soon. And that's where Microsoft gets its profit.

        Don't worry. Microsoft knows how to make money.

      4. Richard Plinston Silver badge

        Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        > I don't see how ...

        No, you don't, but never mind.

        > go back to paid versions of Windows 10 after the free period.

        I wasn't entirely free. You had to have paid for Windows 7 or 8 previously, and it wasn't free for enterprise.

        > Difficult for an OEM to create a $300 PC and stay afloat when MS is asking for $199 for

        Windows.

        That is easy, MS don't ask OEMs for $199.

      5. jrwilheim

        Re: What's next for Windows 10?

        More likely they are pricing Windows 10 upgrades artificially high to encourage consumers to buy new computers, on which the OS is likely to be more reliable and stable. It's even more difficult for an OEM to stay afloat NOT offering Windows since it would mean offering a computer that can't run most desktop software.

    9. Defiant

      Re: What's next for Windows 10?

      Never had any ads

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Can't even give it away

    Everyone knows Windows isn't worth $199 anymore. By giving it away they've permanently devalued windows as a brand, and it will be perceived according to loss-leader economics.

    Windows is the trashy gillette mach3 ... err fusion handle you get for free.

    1. frank ly Silver badge

      Re: Can't even give it away

      I'm still buying Gillette Mach3 blades for my very old Mach3 handle. The entire thing works just fine and gives excellent results with no problems. Can the same be said for Windows?

    2. Sandtitz Silver badge
      Stop

      Re: Can't even give it away

      "Everyone knows Windows isn't worth $199 anymore. By giving it away they've permanently devalued windows as a brand, and it will be perceived according to loss-leader economics."

      They gave it for free to select non-enterprise users with Windows 7 onwards for a limited time. Windows 8 was available for Windows 7 users for $15 for a limited time. Before that Windows 7 had a limited time discount offer for Vista/XP.

      I can't get a free Windows 10 license for a blank computer. It is still not a free licence. It requirer an underlying Windows7/8 licence which was paid in some form (e.g. part of cost of computer)

      Windows is actually last to the free OS party on desktop. OS X has been free for years, so is ChromeOS, Android, IOS, Linux etc. Did OS X lose value when Apple started to give it for free?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Can't even give it away

        None of that matters. It's all about perception.

        OS X is bundled with very expensive hardware. Nobody will mistake that for a loss-leader, or adware.

      2. Alumoi

        Re: Can't even give it away

        Windows is actually last to the free OS party on desktop. OS X has been free for years, so is ChromeOS, Android, IOS, Linux etc. Did OS X lose value when Apple started to give it for free?

        OS X is free? Care to point me to a download site so I can install it on my hackintosh?

        1. James O'Shea Silver badge

          Re: Can't even give it away

          "OS X is free? Care to point me to a download site so I can install it on my hackintosh?"

          Yes, OS X is free. The license says that you're supposed to install it on Apple hardware. Installing on non-Apple hardware is not supported. Anyone who has a Mac which can run OS X 10.6.8 or later has the Mac App Store app; launch it, find the installer for the latest version of the OS (usually right on the front page) and download said installer. It will usually autolaunch and request permission to install; if you give it permission, when its done it will delete itself. If you want to keep a copy, quit the installer, copy it to somewhere else (the installer usually is installed into the Applications folder so that you can find it easily) and then you can have an installer you can use later. Or on another machine. Even a hackintosh. And you can create USB install media, so you can stick the installer on a USB stick and install on anything which has acceptable hardware, including a hackintosh.

          And, finally, every ever so often Apple releases a stand-alone installer. The latest is for OS X 10.11.4 and is available at https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1869?locale=en_US

          But you could have found this for yourself by actually going to Apple's site and typing 'download OS' into the search box.

          1. elaar

            Re: Can't even give it away

            OS X isn't free. If you buy an expensive car and they throw in a "free" bumbag, do you also think the bumbag is really "free"?

    3. Tchou
      Holmes

      Re: Can't even give it away

      The reason Windows 10 was given for free is simple :

      they couldn't have forced it down user's throat with automatic download otherwise, and Windows 10 would have been a worse failure than Vista.

  3. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    FAIL

    Windows 10 did especially well

    Is that supposed to be a joke ?

    For an entire year, we were continually bashed over the head with how Windows 1 0 was free, how much faster it was, how much better it was, and how free it was. We were repeatedly told that existing kit would run better on it. Oh, and it was FREE.

    Next to the marketing, MS tried absolutely everything to push it out whether you wanted it or not, including malware tactics.

    With all of that, what should have happened is MS touting the fastest-ever adoption of a new OS version, and the almost-total conversion of all Windows PCs in existence.

    Instead, it barely made a quarter of the market, and you're saying that is "especially well" ?

    I hope you enjoy your check.

    1. Paul Shirley

      Re: Windows 10 did especially well

      What's startling is how many refuse to upgrade Win8/8.1 to 10. Microsoft have built a reputation for shovelling shit strong enough people choose a known POS over risking shit-as-a-service evermore!

      1. veti Silver badge

        Re: Windows 10 did especially well

        Windows 8.1 is Windows 9. Joke's on you if you missed it, it was the last "good" Windows release.

        Really. If the 'Metro' thing annoys you too much, install Classic Start Menu. Then you'll have the speed and security of Windows 10, the control and customisability of Windows 7, and extended support to January 2023.

        1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

          Re: Windows 10 did especially well

          I wouldn't mind something that doesn't spy on me or force updates and software I don't want down my throat too.

    2. VinceH Silver badge

      Re: Windows 10 did especially well

      TBH, the suggestion that "Windows 10 did especially well" is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the nonsense in that article. I'm not entirely sure when the author is speculating on the future or talking about the past - he seems to switch tense in random places.

      While the overall piece seems to be trying to speculate on how Microsoft can sell the OS - either on its own or via OEMs on new hardware - it almost entirely fails to address the issues that lead many of us to be "upgrade hold-outs".

      Microsoft's pushiness gets only a brief mention, and there's no mention at all of the telemetry. Any problem with failed downgrades to Windows 10 - of which there have been plenty - appears to be blamed on the users owning "old PCs".

      But hey, us hold-outs (and no mention of those who finally took the step over to Linux) apparently have short memories - because we're going to so easily forget the upgrade hell Microsoft inflicted on us.

      Yeah, right.

      And I've finally realised the real reason for the jump from 8 to 10, skipping a 9. We've come to expect a bad-good-bad-good cycle with Windows versions. 8 was bad, so we expected the next version to be good - Microsoft knew otherwise, so they deliberately jumped the version number up by one to give us a heads up.

      1. Baldy50

        Re: Windows 10 did especially well

        I thought they skipped the number nine because the Japanese don't like the way Nine sounds cos it's similar to their word for torture or suffering.

        1. 45RPM Silver badge

          Re: Windows 10 did especially well

          <pedant mode>

          I believe the real reason for skipping 9 was because of badly written software which checked to see if was running on an appropriately advanced Windows by refusing to run on anything that reported as Windows 9* (matching Windows 95 and Windows 98 - and which, unfortunately, would also have matched Windows 9).

          Apple didn't think of this when it released Mac OS X 10.10 - and one or two programs broke because 10.1 (the mathematically correct interpretation of 10.10) < 10.6 or whatever they were developed to run on.

          </pedant mode>

          1. VinceH Silver badge

            Re: Windows 10 did especially well

            Yes, it was - I've seen source code with that sort of stupidity in it.

            I should have posted that paragraph separately and used the joke icon.

          2. Ilsa Loving
            Thumb Down

            Re: Windows 10 did especially well

            Apple didn't think of this when it released Mac OS X 10.10 - and one or two programs broke because 10.1 (the mathematically correct interpretation of 10.10) < 10.6 or whatever they were developed to run on.

            I would argue that Apple probably *did* think of it..... They just didn't care. Apple has a long and cherished history of not giving a fig about developers, sometimes making fundamental changes to the underlying OS, and leaving it up to the developers to catch up or GTFO.

            There is plenty of software for example, that used to run fine in 10.6 but no longer runs on the most recent versions of OSX because Apple made some changes, and the developers basically shrugged their shoulders and left their users out to dry because it's not worth it to them to update.

            Thumbs down, both for Apple and for said developers.

            1. James O'Shea Silver badge

              Re: Windows 10 did especially well

              i can think of a lot of software which worked in OS x 10.8 and died on impact with 10.9. The vast majority of it was software which went out over the network, including email, ftp, and usenet systems, and all of them used a technology named 'Open Transport'. Apple had 'depreciated' Open Transport when the very first OS X versions hit the street. Developers had been on notice for years, since OS X 10.4 in 2004 or so, that it was going to go sometime. Not only did they not migrate to APIs which were going to be supported, some rolled out new versions of their software, using the old APIs, a few months prior to 10.9 hitting the streets. Others simply hadn't updated their stuff for years. When 10.9 hit, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth... tough. It had been marked as being doomed years before, and the devs had not paid attention. Open Transport had been around since 1995. It was visibly growing moss.

              In the case of 10.6, a lot of the dead software depended on having the old Motorola 68000 APIs around, and some depended on PPC APIs. By the time 10.6 arrived, there hadn't been new 68000 Macs for well over a decade, and there hadn't been new PPC Macs for several years. And Apple had told everyone who was listening that the old stuff was doomed. The only thing they didn't say was when. Turned out it was 2009. That would be three years after Apple started shipping Intel Macs. Devs had three years to move on. Whose fault is it that they didn't, again?

              I personally have an old eMac sitting around just so that I can play a very old game (Harpoon; I love sending in regimental Backfire strikes against imperialist carrier battle groups or flushing all the Shipwrecks, including the nukes, from an Oscar at very close range to a Yankee carrier... Slavsya, Otechestvo nashe svobodnoye! Nothing like 54 to 81 Kingfish or 24 Shipwrecks to ruin an imperialist admiral's whole day! The Glorious Red Banner Northern Fleet owns the Atlantic!) and I'd just love to be able to play it on modern equipment, but the vendor's dead and it will never be updated.

        2. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Windows 10 did especially well

          "the Japanese don't like the way Nine sounds cos it's similar to their word for torture or suffering."

          9 = 'kyuu' - which can imply 'sudden' if I read the japanese/english dictionary correctly. I'm not an expert, but I know THAT much at least. (granted, the Japanese language has a LOT of homonyms in it, which is I think why they still use Kanji for writing, because it disambiguates things well).

          Another rumor I heard is that '9' sounds like 'Nein' in German, which of course means "no". (ironically 'no' in japanese is 'iie' which sometimes sounds like "Ja" which means 'yes' in German).

          The most likely skip of '9' is that '10' implies "completion" from a numerological standpoint, primarily because "count to 10" and we have '10 fingers' and other things LIKE that which are common to the human experience. So MS used the TAROT for their inspiration for "10" ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

          No, seriously, the Windows '9x explanation is PROBABLY the best one. To avoid confusion with past, SUCCESSFUL versions of Windows, of course, since Win-10-nic is a PURE ABORTION when it comes to everything in it.

        3. Tchou
          Coat

          Re: Windows 10 did especially well

          People just didn't got it. It is not Windows "ten", it is Windows "one zero", binary like their new desktop theme.

          Obvious icon.

    3. jrwilheim

      Re: Windows 10 did especially well

      It was a faster adoption rate than Windows 7, so yes, "especially well." My father works in IT for newspapers. He says corporations are notoriously slow about upgrading to new OSs and will cling to outdated tech for years. A lot of his time is spent servicing software designed for XP, because the clients won't stop clinging to it even though Microsoft stopped supporting it two years ago. Sooner or later all those old boxes running XP will die and you will see much higher Windows 10 adoption rates.

  4. 45RPM Silver badge

    Given that many potential customers are on XP, Vista or 7 - versions of Windows with a very different user experience to 10, and given that many are only interested in simple office task or Internet browsing (the tools for which are available for free), I wonder how many will upgrade to Windows 10.

    Perhaps many, faced with learning a 'new' OS will choose ChromeOS, Linux (probably Mint or Ubuntu), MacOS - or even a tablet with Android or iOS instead. After all, if you have to pay and learn something new anyway, why not switch too?

    1. jrwilheim

      Dream on. Those kinds of users will keeping buying what they always have, Windows, because it's the easiest thing to find and still has the same basic "grammar" they have been used to from previous versions of Windows. Tablets and smartphones have their place but they are not suited to many tasks PCS are used for.

  5. AMBxx Silver badge

    Price?

    Windows 10 Home is £85

    Windows 10 Pro OEM is £125 (easy enough to qualify for OEM licence)

    New cheapo PC with Windows 10 from £200

    That said, if MS are going down the advertising route, can't be long until Windows Home is free, just charging for Pro/Enterprise where the device management is more important that £100.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Price?

      Both Home and Pro are worth nothing. If I'm buying an OS I don't want it to spam me with ads and apps on the lock screen and start menu and upload telemetry. The only versions worth anything are Enterprise and Education.

      1. AceRimmer

        Re: Price?

        " I don't want it to spam me with ads and apps on the lock screen and start menu"

        The ads are very easy to turn off. Even for an IT Pro like yourself

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Price?

          Oficially you can't on Home and Pro. I refuse to be part of MS's whack-a-mole as they push updates to stop people who have found ways around it.

    2. fnusnu

      Re: Price?

      And the Education Edition is free for students at Uni

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Still free if.....

    you go here https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/accessibility/windows10upgrade

    That is if you want windows 10.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Still free if.....

      "That is if you want windows 10."

      No thank you. Sometimes it is wise to look at the teeth of a gift horse.

      1. Simon Harris Silver badge

        Re: Still free if.....

        As the old adage goes...

        Beware of geeks bearing gifts.

        1. Zakhar

          Re: Still free if.....

          Excellent pun from the original « Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes »!

          1. Simon Harris Silver badge

            Re: Still free if.....

            The original might more accurately have been coined 'Beware of gifts bearing Greeks'!

  7. billium

    Pacman & cancer

    Gates called Linux pacman

    Monkeyboy called Linux a cancer

    Here we have a PROFESSIONAL OS with Candy Crush and X-Box on the start menu. These cannot be easily removed and keep on coming back like a cancer.

    I just got some HP boxes for a company and the extra cost, compared to no OS, for Win 10 Professional was ~ £80 each. The DVDs had no HP bloatware!

    There are some good things about Windows 10, but the lack of choice / control and the telemetry spoil it.

    Fortunately I don't use it.

    1. Timmy B Silver badge

      Re: Pacman & cancer

      "Here we have a PROFESSIONAL OS with Candy Crush and X-Box on the start menu. These cannot be easily removed and keep on coming back like a cancer."

      Erm... I right clicked on them and selected unpin and they went and never came back. Easily removed and didn't come back. Come on now.... did you actually have this problem or are you simply regurgitating something you read elsewhere?.. be honest now...

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: Pacman & cancer

        "There are some good things about Windows 10"

        COMPARED TO WHAT?

        1. Timmy B Silver badge

          Re: Pacman & cancer

          "COMPARED TO WHAT?"

          oh I dunno - perhaps any version of desktop Linux you care to mention. Good things:

          1. Hardware compatibility.

          2. Software compatibility / availability,

          3. Established support that goes beyond "don't you know this, noob?".

          ta - as they say - da...

          1. Adair

            Re: Pacman & cancer

            @TimmyB - broadly speaking wrong on all three counts; and are you seriously implying that the 'Windows experience' is so much better? You're havin' a giraffe, aren't you? If you're serious you really do need to get out more.

            1. Timmy B Silver badge

              Re: Pacman & cancer

              "@TimmyB - broadly speaking wrong on all three counts"

              Are you saying the most commonly used application software works as well on Linux as it does on Windows? Are you saying that most commonly purchased hardware suppliers create Linux drivers? Seriously? And yes - the Windows experience is better. Give me an example of day to day usage where it isn't.

              1. Hstubbe

                Re: Pacman & cancer

                I've been trying to get hibernate to work with windows for weeks now. Ms is giving *no* support at all, nlames the hw vendor. Hw vendor blames ms. All support i can find is crummy internet pages (with and without microsoft in the url), where 'community support' means people repeat the same out-of-context crap just yo score points. And in linux, it just works.

                So yeah, i love the windows experience and the first-grade support you get when using ms windows!

                1. fung0

                  Re: Pacman & cancer

                  Hstubbe: "I've been trying to get hibernate to work with windows for weeks now. Ms is giving *no* support at all, nlames the hw vendor. Hw vendor blames ms."

                  I've lost count of the number of MS support threads I've seen marked "Resolved" by the administrator - but which have continued to accumulate pages of comments, sometimes for years, from users who say the MS fix hasn't worked. In many cases, the recommended fix boils down to some generic boilerplate, like "reinstall Windows," or "try turning your computer off and then on again."

                  Linux jumps that low bar without breaking a sweat.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Pacman & cancer

                > Windows experience is better. Give me an example of day to day usage where it isn't.

                Updates, including requirements to reboot.

                Malware.

                Anti-virus grinding away your response times.

                One of the main annoyances that I had when I did have to use Windows was the inability to view files that were open and being written to, such as log files, or v.v. where the write failed because I was viewing the file. I neither know nor care whether that still happens because it is all gone for me.

                Record locks being left when the program terminates unexpectedly. Perhaps they fixed that.

                1. Timmy B Silver badge

                  Re: Pacman & cancer

                  >Updates, including requirements to reboot.

                  >Malware.

                  >Anti-virus grinding away your response times.

                  I only update at the end of the day when I shut down.

                  I've never had Windows malware.

                  I don't notice any AV issues.

                  Never had experience of the last two.

              3. John Presland

                Re: Pacman & cancer

                Most music software I use comes in two flavours - Win and iOS. I don't want to be locked into Apple's walled garden so I opt for the Win versions. I could try Linux but running some software in WINE creates unacceptable latency. So I'm using Win10 on all my kit. And I'm finding it pleasant to use.

        2. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

          Re: Pacman & cancer

          Being gassed with Sarin or Mustard Gas, maybe?

      2. billium

        Re: Pacman & cancer

        @Timmy B

        Unpinning does not remove the offending software of the computer.

        Right click uninstall ... sometime later on the 'recently installed' list there it is again.

        Use the command line it seems to stay away (this is not easy for general users), though I have not seen the sp1 update.

        Be honest Timmy boy can you unpin from all apps XBOX ?

        Are you simply regurgitating your Slurp script? ... be honest now.

        1. Timmy B Silver badge

          Re: Pacman & cancer

          "Unpinning does not..."

          I didn't have to un-install and most people won't for those if they have never installed them. I just had to unpin. I simply said what I had to do.

          1. billium

            Re: Pacman & cancer

            Yes ... missing the point entirely.

      3. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Pacman & cancer

        "I right clicked on them and selected unpin and they went and never came back."

        wait until the next major update, after the hours' long download of gigabytes of cruft, the 'machine not available' stall in your othewise productive (limited by Win-10-nic's inherent anti-productivity features, of course) day, and the re-re-re-resetting of your (limited) customizations, on MICRO-SHAFT's SCHEDULE, not YOURS, so that it MAXIMIZES the effect of PUNISHING you for NOT choosing THEIR DEFAULTS, at a time and place of THEIR choosing.

        That's Win-10-nic for you, no longer YOUR SERVANT, but YOUR MASTER. It's like a robot revolution! Except, of course, it's MICRO-SHAFT doing it, not the computer themselves...

  8. Stuart 22

    Fire Sale, Fire Sale?

    Given the almost impossibility of buying a laptop without paying the Windows Tax only to replace it with Linux - I'm hoping some miscalculations on inventory means there are dealers with unsold 8.1 systems that have now been further devalued by the cessation of the (dubious) Win10 escape route.

    Will they be willing to forgive the WinTax with more exciting firesale prices?

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: Fire Sale, Fire Sale?

      "Will they be willing to forgive the WinTax with more exciting firesale prices?"

      perhaps some anti-trust investigations need to look more carefully into that 'WinTax' thing...

      or the OEMs can "eat the cost" of the WinTax and ship with Linux so they'll sell... who knows, I'm at least HOPING for some sense to be restored to the market!

  9. John Miles 1

    Windows 10 a hopeless muddle

    Just bought a new PC and got it with Windows 10 ( on the basis that I'd be forced to update anyway at some point). It seems to run OK (albeit on an i5 machine with 16GB and SSD), but the user experience of Windows 10 is a complete muddle - a bit of Win 7 there, a tablet like feel here overlaid with gratuitous Ads.

    And to think I paid money for this! Still, the first thing I did was to allocate space for a second partition for Linux - time to take the plunge I think.

    1. Timmy B Silver badge

      Re: Windows 10 a hopeless muddle

      "gratuitous Ads"... I keep hearing this but on 6 PCs at home and several here at the office on 10 I barely see any ads beyond the suggested app in the start menu. That's hardly gratuitous now and two clicks and that's are gone forever. Got any example of these "gratuitous Ads"?

      1. P. Lee Silver badge

        Re: Windows 10 a hopeless muddle

        >Got any example of these "gratuitous Ads"?

        Skype?

        I have the linux client which is ad-free, but I understand the windows version isn't and the desktop clients will be going away. Does anyone think there won't be adverts on the website?

        1. Timmy B Silver badge

          Re: Windows 10 a hopeless muddle

          Skype isn't windows. The point was made about windows.Any more?

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Windows 10 a hopeless muddle

        > I barely see any ads

        The acceptable amount of ads in an OS is ABSO-FUCKING-LUTLY none whatsoever.

        1. Mark 85 Silver badge

          Re: Windows 10 a hopeless muddle

          The acceptable amount of ads in an OS is ABSO-FUCKING-LUTLY none whatsoever.

          This is dead on. But I'd like to add... no telemetry to "personalize my experience". No apps/programs that I can't remove permanently. No borking of the computer because of an "update". I want it just work quietly in the background so I can do my work....

        2. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: Windows 10 a hopeless muddle

          "The acceptable amount of ads in an OS is ABSO-FUCKING-LUTLY none whatsoever."

          not enough thumbs to give it an appropriate number of "thumbs up".

          You, sir, are a steely-eyed computer guru, and 310% correct!

      3. TonyJ Silver badge

        Re: Windows 10 a hopeless muddle

        "..."gratuitous Ads"... I keep hearing this but on 6 PCs at home and several here at the office on 10 I barely see any ads beyond the suggested app in the start menu..."

        Hmm. Not sure if it's because my laptop shipped with Pro but I don't see any ads.

        I did turn off as much telemetry as possible and I did turn off Cortana, but no idea if this affects things.

        Horses for courses I guess. I'm only really an occasional user on my laptop these days and I do sometimes use it for gaming and as it has a DX12 card in it, I can use this feature which isn't available on any other OS.

        1. fung0

          Re: Windows 10 a hopeless muddle

          TonyJ: " I do sometimes use it for gaming and as it has a DX12 card in it, I can use this feature which isn't available on any other OS."

          After a full year of availability, there isn't even a handful of major game releases for DX12. I've yet to run into any game, major or indie, that I can't play just fine on Windows 7. I'm also playing more and more games on Linux, courtesy of Steam.

          So what use are you actually getting from this "feature" of Windows 10, that "isn't available in any other OS"?

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Windows 10 a hopeless muddle

      @John Miles 1 Re: "Just bought a new PC and got it with Windows 10 ( on the basis that I'd be forced to update anyway at some point). It seems to run OK..."

      Well, firstly it is highly unlikely that that new PC you got didn't come with Win10 Anniversary Edition, so you can expect it to update in the coming days/weeks to what is effectively a new OS carrying the win10 branding...

      Which raises an important question. Given the number of PC's with a pre-anniversary edition of Win10 installed, there is a strong likelihood that many people will be returning machines because the auto update to Anniversary edition borked the machine. I can't see retailers and OEM's being happy to foot the bill for this, unless MS starts paying them...

    3. Baldy50

      Re: Windows 10 a hopeless muddle

      But if you sell the machine a few years later with a working supported Windows installation after removing Grub and whichever Linux distro you've opted for it will sell quicker, easier and be worth more than a machine purchased from some company who sells bare machines with no OS.

  10. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    It seems every iteration is moving W10 a little further towards becoming a toxic brand. At some point H/W manufacturers may either move to Chromebooks or the like or get together to fund development of an alternative OS, maybe based on Linux, BSD or possibly ReactOS which they can control.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Manufacturers will go wherever there is a chance of a profit. That won't be Linux/BSD and probably not Chrome, unless blessed by a Google release.

      RemixOS – which will let people run their phone apps – could be worth a bet.

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge

      "At some point H/W manufacturers may either move to Chromebooks or the like or get together to fund development of an alternative OS, maybe based on Linux, BSD or possibly ReactOS which they can control."

      I've been hoping for this for YEARS, and netbooks had a shot at this [too bad they were way too tiny and underpowered to make any usability sense for most people]. The downside is that it would take a significant MARKETING EFFORT to put all of the necessary pieces together.

      1. Improve user-perception of Linux so they know that it does everything their windows boxen do [basically going against Micro-shaft's FUD campaign over the last 15+ years]

      2. Get major software vendors on-board to make Linux versions [or convince people to use the open source versions, like Libre Office vs Micro-shaft Office]

      3. Eliminate any 'WinTax' effects and allow vendors to DISCOUNT Linux boxen accordingly, competing directly with Win-10-nic on new boxen, minus the OEM license cost. This may require politicians be confronted [with clue-bats?] to change anti-trust legislation and/or investigate Micro-shaft's 'WinTax' under anti-racketeering laws.

      That would be a good start...

      1. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

        @Bombastic Bob - I see Chromebooks being readily available in the US so Linux can be sold with some good marketing. Also, with Android being ubiquitous users are using a Linux derivative. Linux in a couple forms is very popular as is BSD. The number reports about Winbloat borking systems is making users warm up to the idea of something else.

        OEMs are first loyal to themselves not Slurp and the fact many are testing the waters with Chromebooks and in few cases Linux preinstalled (Dell for one) means they think they can make money without 'bloat.

    3. fung0

      OS Futures

      Doctor Syntax: "At some point H/W manufacturers may either move to Chromebooks or the like or get together to fund development of an alternative OS, maybe based on Linux, BSD or possibly ReactOS which they can control."

      I've tried Chrome, and it probably has its place. But I think Android N may be an even stronger contender. I'm sure there's a reason Google has been adding desktop features like windowing and mouse support. Many consumers would probably like the idea of running the same OS - and apps - on their desktop as they do on their phone or tablet.

      This is probably the 'nightmare scenario' that Microsoft tried to forestall with its awkward Continuum feature. Unfortunately, it's a lot easier for Google to make Android run comfortably on generic PC hardware, than for Microsoft to make Windows run on its own smartphone hardware. Still worse (for MS), Google can bring along its entire base of existing Android apps, while Microsoft could only make the stunt work for a tiny number of new-fangled UWP apps.

      Likely future: for casual users, Windows Home gives way to Android N; for power users, Windows Pro is replaced by GNU/Linux. PC games shift to SteamOS, and the console world remains divided, with Steam Machines making gradual inroads as the economics of the open, generic PC architecture erode the cost advantage of proprietary games boxes.

      1. jrwilheim

        Re: OS Futures

        "Many consumers would probably like the idea of running the same OS - and apps - on their desktop as they do on their phone or tablet." And yet, when Android fanboys hear it is possible to do just that with Windows 10, they claim no one would ever want that.

        "Unfortunately, it's a lot easier for Google to make Android run comfortably on generic PC hardware, than for Microsoft to make Windows run on its own smartphone hardware." The difference being that Microsoft has already done this with Continuum and Android isn't even trying. You're also ignoring Microsoft's vast ecosystem of Windows 32 apps (the reason people buy a PC, after all) and backwards compatibility, the main reason Windows has faced down every would-be challenger for 26 years.

      2. jrwilheim

        Re: OS Futures

        "Likely future: for casual users, Windows Home gives way to Android N; for power users, Windows Pro is replaced by GNU/Linux. PC games shift to SteamOS, and the console world remains divided, with Steam Machines making gradual inroads as the economics of the open, generic PC architecture erode the cost advantage of proprietary games boxes." Likely future: the world continues to run on Windows. Continuum develops to the point that it can multitask and do everything desktop Windows does, consumers realize they only need one device (not three), and Android bites the dust.

  11. Primus Secundus Tertius Silver badge

    How to sell hardware

    Selling Windows is one thing, selling hardware is another.

    Surely the manufacturers could persuade MSFT to issue a Windows 7 SP2. Then the boxes would fly off the shelves as if they were going down the Cresta run.

    1. DailyLlama

      Re: How to sell hardware

      They kind of did:

      The Windows 7 post SP1 convenience Rollup, which has EVERY update since SP1 to April 2016.

      http://catalog.update.microsoft.com/v7/site/Search.aspx?q=KB3125574

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: How to sell hardware

        "The Windows 7 post SP1 convenience Rollup, which has EVERY update since SP1 to April 2016."

        It seems to have some other update as a pre-requisite!

        1. PhilBuk

          Re: How to sell hardware

          Agreed. It seems to want to install an Active X thingy. Could you explain what this does before I bork my functioning Win 7 System.

          Phil.

  12. moiety

    Microsoft's problem is that they forgot what they were selling. They can't see past the gravy of their stockholders and advertising revenue and have forgotten about the meat and potatoes underneath...that is that a large bunch of fairly happy users -the people buying the equipment- are required to make the whole thing work.

    The "new corporate strategy" of fuck absolutely everything that isn't about our profit and convenience would maybe work for other products; but an operating system is different because there's a degree of trust required. Not to mention that -by physically inserting themselves between users and their business of using computers to do whatever it is they want to do there's an almost infinite amount of things that can go wrong (which Microsoft seem already to be exploring). I deal with other people's passwords, so even if I wanted to drink the kool-aid (I don't), it would be legally and morally wrong for me to knowingly install a surveillance device on the kit that I use for work...data protection laws if nothing else.

    And the elephant in the room...even if you (hah!) believe that Microsoft are using the data ethically, and selling only to hand-picked advertisers; what happens when they are inevitably hacked?

  13. LDS Silver badge

    MS could try to use its application software to force a awitch to 10...

    ... but it could be a double edged sword.

    MS could for example make the next Office running on Windows 10 only. People on the Office 365 subscription could be forced to upgrade (this is another issue with the subscription model)

    But it could be a risky move, because it could make people look for alternatives to be strangled into a system where MS dictates upgrades, not the users.

  14. MotionCompensation

    Breaking

    "Breaking 350 million: What's next for Windows 10?"

    Breaking 350 million PC's would be a safe bet.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "How and where does Microsoft go from here?"

    Now begins the assault on our behavioral data:

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/02/google-microsoft-pact-antitrust-surveillance-capitalism

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Seriously...

    ~ Well done M$ execs you got the low hanging fruit. But now you're going to find it rough going.

    ~ Win98R2 / XP / Win7 had merits. But Win-10 = Trusted-Computing + behavioral slurping.

    ~ PC market struggling? Then offer some alternatives to windows: HP / DELL / Lenovo / Alienware / Asus / Acer etc. They exist you know!

    ~ Overall why are Italy and France the only countries forcing M$ to refund customers? This perpetual bundling game is a con, its time for it to die!

  17. Novex

    Deja Vu

    That 350 million figure is still being bandied about. I seem to remember the lead up to a recent event where that figure was somewhat discredited...

    ...and it might just be that MS's figure isn't entirely above board either. AIUI, 350 million is for downloads/installs to all device types. So it's not just for PCs (although the vast majority of that figure will be, as the Surfaces and Phones probably don't amount to much).

    Also, we don't know if that 350 million includes downloads/installs that have been rolled back, or for which PCs people who upgraded decided to wipe it out and start again with something else.

    So basically, we don't know what the true active user base of Windows 10 is. I don't think MS do either. But I'm pretty sure it's a fair bit less than 350 million.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Deja Vu

      " I don't think MS do either."

      Given the forced update mechanism and spywaretelemetry then they must have a fairly good idea of how many unique installs are still active. Obviously won't cover those machines which have those bugsfeatures inhibited

      1. fung0

        Re: Deja Vu

        Recent NetMarketshare.com stats, based on what's actually being used online:

        * Windows 10 = 19%

        * Windows 8.x = 10.5%

        * Windows XP = 10%

        * Windows 7 = 49%

        The Windows XP segment isn't going to shrink very quickly. It clearly consists of users (or applications) that are happy as they are.

        Windows 7 still has more (active) users than all other versions combined. These people have relatively new PCs, but didn't want Windows 10 when it was free. They're now going to make a shift only when a new PC purchase can't be postponed any longer - and even then, are likely to reinstall Win7, or jump to Linux.

        The Windows 8 holdouts are even more interesting. If Windows 10 couldn't woo them, what will?

        Hitting almost 20% in one year is pretty good going for Windows 10, but it's hard to paint it as a resounding victory.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Deja Vu

          " Windows XP = 10%...The Windows XP segment isn't going to shrink very quickly. It clearly consists of users (or applications) that are happy as they are."

          As this is online usage the real XP share might be higher than that as it will include boxes that are tied to specialist H/W that never even provided W7 drivers but never go online.

          1. Ropewash

            Re: Deja Vu

            @Doctor Syntax:

            I can confirm that.

            1-98, 1-CE, 3-XP. All tied to industrial machines that will never move beyond that spec. All the rest are either on customised Linux or run proprietary software.

            None are online. I could imagine the boss' face when I had to tell him that a $500,000 machine was down because it got an update/virus and wouldn't boot. Hard to get anything unplanned through RS232.

        2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

          Re: Deja Vu

          > Hitting almost 20% in one year is pretty good going for Windows 10, but it's hard to paint it as a resounding victory.

          Especially as it was hard to buy a PC without Windows 10 and that was 250 million of them.

        3. Loud Speaker

          Re: Deja Vu

          The Windows XP segment isn't going to shrink very quickly. It clearly consists of users (or applications) that are happy as they are.

          They are clearly going to have to disconnect from the Internet to stay happy.

          Fortunately, there are no device drivers for the Wifi interface in my XP laptop

    2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

      Re: Deja Vu

      > 350 million is for downloads/installs to all device types.

      The PC sales figures indicate that around 250 million PCs were sold in the last 12 months, the vast majority with Windows 10. Only 100 million were downloads/installs.

    3. ITS Retired

      Re: Deja Vu

      Well, the 350 number is probably correct. But the million part may be overstated a bit.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    See below

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/08/windows_10_anniversary_update_is_borking_boxen_everywhere/

  19. Tom 7 Silver badge

    It seems the RaspberryPi3 will now boot from a USB drive

    so for the price of W10 you can have a whole new PC that you own all of.

    For a lot less if you dont have to buy a monitor and plug it into your telly. OK you cant play silly games on it but it seems to work pretty well.

  20. WatAWorld

    Another lazy hardware bod looking for someone else to do his job

    Apple is in the business of selling computers. If you're a hardware vendor maybe look at what they do.

    But unlike Apple, MS is insisting that you can't sell minimally powered soon-to-be-obsolete new machines labeled for the current operating system.

    No, MS is not in the business of selling your computers for you. Neither is Linux.

    MS has a split interest in appealing to vendors, but also protecting its customers.

    And since it makes much more revenue from customers (for software and training) than vendors that split is not even. MS is watching out more for customers than for vendors.

    Yes, Windows 10 Anniversary Update boosted the requirements for a Windows logo sticker on NEW machines. This is to ensure that newly purchased machines don't go obsolete too quickly.

    NO, Windows 10 Anniversary Update does not require any additional resources from existing machines.

    In addition, there have been very few desktops and laptops sold in the past 5 years with less than 4 GB, so I don't know what inspired the following strange statement:

    "Windows 10 Anniversary Update – which we recently revealed has been freezing computers – puts more pressure on the hardware, demanding at least 2GB of memory, so only those running really recent machines with Windows 7 and 8.1 will realistically be able to start running the Anniversary Update"

    I suspect that the freezing computers are often occurring because neither MS nor users nor admins are checking their antivirus is compatible with the Anniversary Update.

    That is a mistake I made.

    In my case my issues were solved by uninstalling and reinstalling my Kaspersky Total Security.

    Let us have more honesty and less hype. Let us have people doing their own jobs and not expecting other people to do their jobs for them.

    Windows 10 will run on phones for gosh sakes, so it certainly runs on first generation 2 GB Core i3 laptop systems, provided they don't have exotic peripherals or software.

    Of course it helps a great deal if the person doing the update knows to check for AV, video, sound, network and printer compatibility before doing the update. Home users have a bit of an excuse since they can't be expected to know that -- home users can legitimately complain that MS should be doing that for them. But an IT professional lacking that knowledge? It points to a failure in hiring and training.

    1. Naselus

      Re: Another lazy hardware bod looking for someone else to do his job

      It's a pretty typical Gavin Clarke article, tbh. It's riddled with factual inaccuracies, and it's laid out in a series of 1-sentence paragraphs, causing it to read like a powerpoint slide (or someone's lecture notes). It contradicts itself repeatedly, then states the blindingly obvious. Finally, it comes to no conclusions whatsoever, all the while basking in the pretense of it's own profundity. The net effect is that it reads like it was written by a 3rd grader from the shallow end of the talent pool.

      Added to this awful command of the written language is the fact that Gavin shows no real evidence of knowing or understanding anything about computers beyond what you can pick up from one of those 'I'm a Mac' adverts in the mid-2000s. Almost every PC in the last decade has shipped with 4GB of RAM or more, and most modern machines have at least 8GB. Windows 10 in-place upgrade failures weren't commonplace, and it ran comfortably on any hardware that could cope with 7 or 8. I very much doubt Gav has ever installed Windows on anything, or even used it much, for that matter; I'd be surprised if he has owned any hardware that doesn't have an apple sticker on it since 2005 (and that 1-sentence-paragraph style just screams 'written on my iPad').

      In sum, it's badly written, badly argued, and badly researched. What passes for it's opinion is rendered meaningless by the author's weak grasp of the subject matter, like a cab driver outlining his plan for root-and-branch reform of the Eurozone. As with almost every one of Gav's articles, I'm left wondering why a man who knows almost nothing about IT and writes with the fluency of a man translating a VCR manual from Japanese into Welsh has a job as a tech journalist.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Another lazy hardware bod looking for someone else to do his job

        In sum, it's badly written, badly argued, and badly researched.

        Can't really argue with that. From the article:

        Shot memory and dated processors in your gear meant you were unlikely to get Win 10 running on that old PC.

        Sounds good but I wonder what "shot memory" is supposed to be? The baseline for Windows 10 is supposed to be any PC that was supplied with Windows 7. There might be a higher minimum on the memory but the processor shouldn't really matter much because Windows 10 is supposed to contain lots of improvements over Windows 7, which itself digested a lot of the Vista bloat (XML for a GUI, WTF!)

        I wonder how many of those 350 million include the many VMs that downloaded, because download by default, Windows 10 but never installed or even could install it? For a year all new consumer PCs came with Windows 10, some of which allowed you to "downgrade" to Windows 7 and they still only got 350 million downloads for a "free" OS upgrade.

        The thing is that Windows 7 is a pretty good OS, as long as you don't want the command line (Powershell fans excepted). If only MS had used that as the baselines for a subscription based OS, as they have with Office. Yes, there'd be howls of protest from a few, but I'm sure most would have happily played along. Apple had already done the groundbreaking with free, annual OS releases which selectively disable older hardware.

    2. Richard Plinston Silver badge

      Re: Another lazy hardware bod looking for someone else to do his job

      > Windows 10 will run on phones for gosh sakes,

      A _subset_ of Windows 10 will run on _some_ phones. There are many things in desktop Windows 10 that are not part of 'W10M' (nor of 'W10IOT'). The desktop for a start, most of the device support for PCs, most drivers, and most of the guts of the kernel.

      It says nothing about what the full W10 requires.

  21. Cereberus

    It's not all bad

    I recently got a new PC because of the cost of upgrading which I had to do anyway (nothing to do with the OS). To be honest, apart from a minor learning curve from the move to Win 10 from Win 7 I haven't had any problems.

    It runs faster (of course this needs a pinch of salt when comparing to a 6 year old Win 7 box with loads of crap installed and then removed again over the years), is easier (for me) to navigate settings and so on and the only time I get intrusive adverts is if I want to play Solitaire or Mahjong - although it does get annoying when you have an advert for something already installed.

    I can't speak for up-graders but I have no problems on a new machine. The only exception would be the privacy settings, but then I have that locked down. Wouldn't be so easy for a basic word processor / web surfer, but many of them just click yes whatever you put on the screen.

    *** I have my flame proof, troll blanking outfit on in preparation for replies

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: It's not all bad

      For a year all new machines have come with Windows 10 and I think most people would agree with you, though a sizeable minority may well have opted to "downgrade" to Windows 7. But, the market for PCs is in a possibly fatal decline.

      The problems are with the more or less force-feeding of Windows 10 onto people who didn't really want it. This combined the "who moved my cheese" problem of GUI changes with compatibility problems in a way that was entirely avoidable and has definitely tarnished the brand. Lots of work for Microsoft to do to rebuild that brand and get the other 700 or 800 million machines onto the new OS.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: It's not all bad

        "For a year all new machines have come with Windows 10"

        Bought one with W7, upgradeable to 8.1 with an included DVD, a couple of seeks ago. Admittedly it was the last of that particular model they had in stock but there were a few other models on their site.

      2. jrwilheim

        Re: It's not all bad

        If 250 million PCs with Windows 10 were sold in the past year, and similar numbers are sold in the next two years, that would be 750 million PCs running Windows 10 by this time in 2018. And that's not counting any computers being upgraded to the new OS on top of that.

    2. fung0

      Re: It's not all bad

      Cereberus: "It's not all bad."

      Now there's a ringing endorsement for a brand new OS, with a 2-digit jump in version numbers.

  22. WatAWorld

    I see MS making money the way software companies make money, not the way search companies do

    I expect that MS will shift to making money the way money is made off of Linux.

    An increasing portion of the revenue will business clients paying for training, support and additions to the operating system.

    It will also make an increasing portion of its revenue from cloud services.

    Apple, Adobe, Sun (and Java), Mozilla, they all make money advertising other people's products, and MS does too.

    But I don't see MS going down the path that Google did and becoming primarily an advertising company.

    For one thing, MS is widely used in governments, businesses, classrooms and they'd loose that business if they tried pushing ads in the volume Google does.

  23. Surur

    So the question is where the new Windows 10 growth will come from.

    The answer is obviously from the sale of new PCs, to the tune of around 250 million each year, even now (65 million were sold in Q1 2016).

    Regarding the reason people did not upgrade, it has nothing to do with neckbeard worries. Regular people are simply scared of an upgrade breaking something and having to learn new things. When they buy a new PC they will not have a choice.

    So it's safe to say in a year's time there will be more than half a billion Windows 10 PCs with Redstone 2. There is no mystery or challenge.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Mushroom

      "Regular people are simply scared of an upgrade breaking something and having to learn new things. When they buy a new PC they will not have a choice."

      you actually SAID that? what a LOW opinion of other humans you must have! We are NOT in an 'idiocracy', yet...

      (careful, your arrogance and snobbery are showing)

      Aside from the snooty-snob "we *FEEL* we know better than YOU" types at Micro-shaft MAKING! THE! OPERATING! SYSTEM! "that way", we also have SAME-MINDED SYCOPHANTIC FAN-BOIS parroting the SAME! KINDS! OF! ARROGANCE! about "regular people".

      And _THAT_ is the point: Micro-shaft is NO longer "have it YOUR way" customer service oriented. They are "CONTROL THE MASSES" oriented. ONLY the *MOST* ARROGANT! of people would even *DARE* to *CONSIDER* doing this kind of thing, and "The Borg" Micro-shaft wants to ASSIMILATE YOU into doing EVERYTHING *THEIR* way so they can LOCK! YOU! IN! forever, and ADVERT! you, and SPY! ON! you, and MONETIZE! you in *EVERY* possible way.

      I think 'regular people' are growing *VERY* tired of LOTS of things *KINDS* of things right now... and won't tolerate this much longer.

      1. SundogUK

        Don't know if I agree or disagree with your post because I ignore fuckwits who vomits caps everywhere.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      " Regular people are simply scared of an upgrade breaking something..."

      And when those upgrades have gained a reputation of doing that, quite rightly so.

      "... and having to learn new things."

      Experience with smartphones and Chromebooks indicates that that's not the case.

      "When they buy a new PC they will not have a choice."

      That depends on the H/W vendors. If they decide that Windows has become a toxic brand they'll offer a choice.

    3. James O'Shea Silver badge

      " When they buy a new PC they will not have a choice."

      Sure they will.

      1 reformat and install the Linux distro of their choice. Or, if they're up to additional work, BSD,

      2 buy a Mac in the first place. Apple doesn't give a damn what OS you run. Install a Linux distro, install BSD, even install Windows, Apple doesn't care. They won't support you if you don't have an Apple OS running, but they don't care what you have running. They'll even provide Windows and (some) Linux drivers for you. Then you're on your own.

      1. jrwilheim

        "1 reformat and install the Linux distro of their choice. Or, if they're up to additional work, BSD." Just how I, as an average computer user who spends most of his time in MS Office and a web browser, want to spent a Sunday afternoon.

        "2 buy a Mac in the first place. Apple doesn't give a damn what OS you run. Install a Linux distro, install BSD, even install Windows, Apple doesn't care. They won't support you if you don't have an Apple OS running, but they don't care what you have running. They'll even provide Windows and (some) Linux drivers for you. Then you're on your own." Apple may believe this is a selling point, and perhaps for a small portion of people in graphic design who need software that is only available on Mac and software that is only available on Windows, it is. For the average user, who wants to spent $200-$800 on a computer, not so much.

        I'm amazed how out of touch techie people often are with the average computer user and consumer.

        1. Loud Speaker

          "1 reformat and install the Linux distro of their choice. Or, if they're up to additional work, BSD." Just how I, as an average computer user who spends most of his time in MS Office and a web browser, want to spent a Sunday afternoon.

          The average Linux install takes me about 40 mins - on a clapped out old Core 2. BSD can be installed in under 20 mins in most cases.

          The problem with BSD is more the learning curve to admin it. However, admin is also the main problem with Linux. Joe User cannot do the admin role. But he can't do it for Windows either.

          In reality, some other family member does it, and, increasingly, there are family members who realise it is far easier to admin someone else's Linux machine than someone else's Windows machine. Massively easier.

          In the end, that will be what kills Windows.

    4. Ropewash
      Thumb Down

      @Surur

      "Regular people are simply scared of an upgrade breaking something and having to learn new things. When they buy a new PC they will not have a choice."

      No choice but to accept having to learn about broken software?

      What a bleak, dystopian future you envision.

      Speaking as a "regular person" (well, I'm not an IT guy at any rate) I'll thank you to not push that nightmare on me. I prefer my software to do it's damned job. That's it's entire point of being, doing things for me that I want it to. It does not exist to serve a corporation or a government. It exists to serve ME.

      Hence my reluctance to join the Win10 march of regress. It seems to want to serve Microsoft's shareholders, the Candy-Crush guys and possibly the NSA, I am none of those things and as such do not need that software.

      (okay, so all MS software can be expected to serve the shareholders... but it used to stop at the purchase price, now it seems to involve data harvesting and paid solitaire.)

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Doom is what's next

    So, the knowledge that Windows update X will crash your system but as a regular user you will have no way to prevent your Windows environment from upgrading. Such a wonderful Windows experience, I think everyone should experience this at least once. The perfect remedy for not wanting to stay on Windows 7 :)

  25. J J Carter Silver badge
    Trollface

    It's still free!

    You just pledge you're differently-abled. It's not stealing, taking from MSFT...

  26. Herby Silver badge

    Face the music...

    Look, with all that has been going on, just face it: We're screwed (with Windows).

    If you really want windows, I understand that one can get them.

  27. jonathan keith

    What?

    "Customers will likely forget that pushing now, and upgrade hold-outs could move on."

    You're on the money with the second part of that sentence at least, if by move on you mean move on to Mint.

  28. David Roberts Silver badge
    WTF?

    Old hardware?

    I upgraded (as opposed to clean installed) W10 on a number of systems (using a clone of the original drive before refitting the original drive).

    Two of these systems were a Core 2 Duo and a Core 2 Quad which originally came with Vista 32 bit. Both run W8.1 64 bit with no apparent problem and upgraded and ran just fine. So unless the Anniversary update has some seriously bloated new features I wouldn't expect any problems.

    Not that I intend to run W10 on any of my systems any time soon (if ever).

    I have no idea what the author was chuntering on about.

    1. Jess

      Re: Old hardware?

      I'm running an old chuck out Core 2 HP (3GHz 2GB)

      I installed windows 7 with a factory disk and the performance was poor. After the upgrade to Windows 10 the performance was far better, good enough to be my main machine. After the anniversary upgrade, I wasn't happy with the performance and did a re-install on a new HD. I also installed Linux Mint (Sarah, Mate, 64). I have found Mint somewhat smoother and a nicer OS. I hardly ever boot to 10 any more.

      I have compared the previous version of Mint with (original) Windows 10 on the same laptop and found little difference in usability. Windows 10 being marginally better, (but not worth paying for, it's not eligible for a free upgrade.) However the latest Mint is noticeably slicker, while 10 has gone backwards.

      I can see no reason for anyone who doesn't need to run Windows specific software to buy a new windows computer. Especially since a typical £150 Windows 10 laptop is nowhere near the spec of a decent spec XP machine.

  29. DanceMan

    Cost vs. Value

    Windows 10

    Cost: $199

    Value: $0.00

  30. DougS Silver badge

    2 GB requirement for Win 10 'anniversary update'?

    What happens if you update a 1 GB PC running Windows 10? Does it refuse the update, or does it take it and just run really slowly? Makes the "free" upgrade seem like a trojan horse on 1 GB PCs if that's the case, as they could have happily kept running Windows 7 but if their PC becomes slow with the anniversary update OR they eventually cut off security patches for Windows 10 'original' they can essentially force those people to buy new PCs. Sure, theoretically they could downgrade to Windows 7, but good luck for the average consumer to figure out how to do that!

    1. Loud Speaker

      Re: 2 GB requirement for Win 10 'anniversary update'?

      Uncle, Uncle, what is wrong with my PC?

      "Its got Windows 10 on it!"

      Can you fix it?

      Yes: I happen to have a Linux Mint install USB stick in my jacket pocket for this kind of situation.

  31. bazza Silver badge

    350,000,000 - 1 = ?

    = 349,999,999,

    = my PC reverted back to Windows 7. Went without a hitch, thankfully.

    1. SundogUK

      Re: 350,000,000 - 1 = ?

      I had a slight hitch with USB drivers but otherwise Win 10 deleted, Win 7 installed for the win!

  32. Ionas

    What's next for Windows 10

    Linux.

    I'm so fed up with Microsoft treating my hardware as theirs, I'm going to switch all my systems to run Linux. It will likely even improve my privacy!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What's next for Windows 10

      I shudder at the thought of running my desktop on Linux. There's just too much software that doesn't exist on Linux. Namely i) a decent email client that can talk to exchange servers ii) a good CAD package iii) MS Office (sorry Libre Office, too slow and not compatible enough) iv) Visual Studio (Eclipse is no where near as good).

      A Mac would be a better choice for me, though it's not a complete replacement either.

      1. SundogUK

        Re: What's next for Windows 10

        Yup. MS Office and games remain a sticking point. And neither Mint or Ubuntu would play nice with my 3G dongle. (Fedora+Gnome seems to be possible but I've not tested it yet.)

  33. Kev99

    It appears that it's not technology or business needs pushing planned obsolescence in computers but rather Microsoft not knowing how to write tight, clean code. Add to that all the supposed "W10, Call Home" psuedo-malware and it's no wonder Win10 need 2GB to run. In my opinion, that's just more reason to not install Win10. And the sooner the hardware companies quit feeding the ravenous monster of Redmond by designing their equipment to Redmond's march instead of the their users needs, the better off the industry will be.

  34. JeffyPoooh Silver badge
    Pint

    Anybody else notice this?

    Once upon a time (say, 15 years ago), one put $2000+ on one's credit card to buy a nice shiney new PC from, for example, Dell.

    These days, a decent PC is well under $1000. About half or a third of the price, even assuming constant dollars.

    PC sales down you say? In 'unit sales', so vastly worse in dollars.

    Wait until a decent PC is just a lump in the HDMI cable. We're actually just about there. Maybe about four more Moore cycles, so about 8 years.

    Future looks bleak for PC vendors.

    1. jrwilheim

      Re: Anybody else notice this?

      "Once upon a time (say, 15 years ago), one put $2000+ on one's credit card to buy a nice shiney new PC from, for example, Dell."

      And back then many fewer people bought them.

      "These days, a decent PC is well under $1000. About half or a third of the price, even assuming constant dollars." Depends on what you call a "decent" PC but again, at a lower price people buy more of them.

  35. Ted's Toy

    Only reason for a home PC to have windows now is to play games.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Not even that. Get yourself an xbox or a PS4 for that.

  36. Ted's Toy

    xbox and ps4 can't run Dosbox

  37. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Friendly tip for Win 10 users

    Use a local account, not Microsoft account. Easy step to minimize data mining by Microsoft.

    It's going to get a lot worse in the coming years: The proliferation of Niantics' Pokemon game's augmented reality and everyone being profiled on a 'grid'. Skynet is nearer than you think.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Friendly tip for Win 10 users

      A clippy with Obama's face...

  38. Al Black

    Unfair claims of requiring new kit to run Windows 10.

    Windows 10 needs less resources than Windows 7 - when I upgraded Windows runs faster on the same hardware, so unless the Anniversary Update of Windows is a downgrade to bloatware (I haven't upgraded yet), there is no truth to this. Who runs Windows 7 or 8.1 on less than 2 Gb RAM? Everyone I know has 4 or 8Gb, so this is hardly a startlingly high requirement.

  39. VulcanV5

    Next for Windows 10 . . .

    "What's next for Windows 10?" The Windows-9-but-we'd-better-not-call-it-that giveaway was less a marketing exercise as an experiment in materials science, the materials being millions of non-techie users, the science being all about pliability: just how far can those users be made to bend to Microshaft's will? If pressure upon them is progressively increased, will they bend yet further -- or break?

    For all those who bent over fully to take their Microshafting, the next experiment will be in paid-for updates; after all, their pliability is already established, and so their wallets are within easy reach. For all those who either broke and said farewell, Redmond, or flatly refused to be experimented upon in the first place, what's next for Windows 10, or Microshaft, is of passing interest: a business so contemptuous of its customers is one to be forgotten rather than ever to be forgiven.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Next for Windows 10 . . .

      In essence, it's the Nigerian Prince testing his marks, seeing who bites in spite of an atrociously formulated obviously fake pleas for help.

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